1 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:12,320 Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for 2 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:15,400 the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm 3 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,800 the editor of Project, APM's quarterly journal and your host 4 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:22,120 in this podcast. I'm speaking to Ashley Hargrave, 5 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:24,840 Interim Head of Strategic Projects and Management at the 6 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:27,840 King Edward the 6th Foundation in Birmingham, and David 7 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:32,240 Kitchener, Head of the Portfolio office at the RSPB, to find out 8 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:34,960 what it's like to be leading project management within these 9 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,440 two charities, both of which are APM corporate partners. 10 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:41,640 Ashley and David give me a behind the scenes look at how 11 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,520 project management is woven into the strategic and operational 12 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:49,160 fabric of their organisations. They also give me their top tips 13 00:00:49,160 --> 00:00:52,440 from project managing in the charity sector and how digital 14 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:54,680 transformation is bringing great benefits. 15 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,560 Listen on to find out more about getting stuff done, hiding the 16 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,680 project management wiring and why it's key to stay calm. 17 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:12,600 Welcome both of you to the APM Podcast. 18 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:15,040 Thanks so much for sparing the time today. 19 00:01:15,320 --> 00:01:19,200 I think an interesting place to start would be to ask both of 20 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:21,800 you a little bit about the charity you work for and your 21 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:23,560 current role and responsibilities. 22 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:27,480 So, Ashley, tell us a bit about what you do and where you work. 23 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:33,400 So I work for a charity which is a foundation charity, it's King 24 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:38,040 Edward the 6th Foundation in Birmingham and our mission is a 25 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,760 very ambitious mission and that is to make Birmingham the best 26 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:46,760 place to be educated in the UK. The foundation consists of 14 27 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:52,520 schools from across the secondary education sectors and 28 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:56,240 the idea is really to improve the educational opportunities 29 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,840 across Birmingham. We actually educate the largest 30 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:03,840 number of secondary school children outside of the local 31 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:08,360 authority in Birmingham now. So you're Head of Strategic 32 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,520 Projects and Management. Can you tell us a little bit 33 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,800 about your role and your responsibilities there? 34 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:19,960 So I've been in the role fairly short time since September. 35 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:25,400 The role is really to bring in project methodology and best 36 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,880 practise because we've brought in a new approach for schools 37 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,920 that they can bid in to strategic funds. 38 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:38,320 And so we've got a funding part and what I've really sort of set 39 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:42,720 up is a major projects fund for the schools to fit into with the 40 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:47,400 framework that sits around that and kind of the gateway process. 41 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,680 And then in terms of the strategy, we're doing a strategy 42 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,240 refresh at the moment for the next 5 years, which will take us 43 00:02:54,520 --> 00:03:00,000 from 26 up to 31. And the idea of that is we're 44 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,720 reviewing our existing strategy. So we've looked at the 45 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:10,760 performance and gained feedback from students, staff and 46 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:15,600 governors and then working on the new operational projects 47 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:19,480 that align with that strategy. So really it's it's the whole 48 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,080 methodology of project management from beginning to end 49 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,680 and the gateways associated to and kind of the assurance piece. 50 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:29,720 Have you always worked in charity? 51 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,440 In charity sector and what do you enjoy about working in this 52 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,680 sector? Yeah, I've worked in all the 53 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:42,560 sectors across the spectrum. I started my career as a fresh 54 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,600 graduate with a biology degree, didn't really know what I wanted 55 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,960 to do many moons ago. And I went into working for a 56 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:55,000 conservation charity. I loved that I worked on a range 57 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:59,120 of conservation projects. And then really from there I 58 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:03,360 went into teaching and I did a sustainability management 59 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:07,240 postgraduate degree as well. But I've worked for a local 60 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:12,200 authority, I've worked for at least three charities across my 61 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:16,279 career and I've worked for an automotive company in industry. 62 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:20,240 And the common themes really being educational projects, 63 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,440 project management, working for charities. 64 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:28,240 I love charity work. Having that clear mission and 65 00:04:28,280 --> 00:04:30,720 aligning with people around those values. 66 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:33,960 It's really exciting. It's very, very rewarding. 67 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,960 David, tell, tell us a bit about RSPBI mean, I'm sure everyone's 68 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,120 heard of it and also so your role and responsibilities there. 69 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:46,920 Sure. So yeah, I work for the RSPB, 70 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:52,160 I'm head of the portfolio office and the RSPB is a charity for 71 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:54,880 the conservation of birds in nature. 72 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:59,120 So we carry out conservation on a large scale, but you could say 73 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,920 a huge scale because it's, it's not only landscape scale 74 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,480 conservation within the four countries of the UK, but also 75 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:11,280 worldwide conservation across multiple habitats and 76 00:05:11,280 --> 00:05:14,040 environments. So we're working across oceans 77 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:16,520 as well as land habitats as well. 78 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:20,400 But within the UK we do big landscapes. 79 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,800 So we do uplands, wetlands, you name it. 80 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:27,640 You know, any landscape that is in need of restoration or 81 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,200 improving or, or whether it's being impacted by the current 82 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:36,200 climate emergency overseas. We do work in rainforests and 83 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:40,000 because a lot of the species that we are interested in in the 84 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:44,200 UK migrate from other countries, we do a lot of work both in 85 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,560 those countries where they may spend a significant other part 86 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,400 of their year or countries across which they migrate. 87 00:05:51,840 --> 00:05:55,320 So we work with our partners, our bird life partners there to 88 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,800 to help with the improvement of that those species actions. 89 00:05:58,840 --> 00:06:03,760 And across the oceans we do work for the albatross. 90 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:09,080 So we have an albatross task force looking at reducing 91 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:13,360 bycatch. So making the way that fishing 92 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:17,080 is more sustainable, not only in the way that the fish are 93 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,920 caught, but in reducing the bycatch and bycatches is a nice 94 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,080 way of saying birds getting caught in Nets or online. 95 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:29,040 So working with fishermen across the oceans of the world to 96 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,200 improve, improve the way that they fish. 97 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,280 Can you tell us a bit about your role and responsibilities and 98 00:06:34,280 --> 00:06:37,680 then if you have an international aspect to your job 99 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:39,560 as well, that would be interesting to hear about. 100 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:47,200 So I'm head of the portfolio office and my role is to help 101 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,200 projects and programmes be the best they can be. 102 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:54,560 So we own, if you like, the project management framework, 103 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,600 which is something that we are embedded in the organisation at 104 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,080 the moment. And our PPM systems are the 105 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:03,360 system that is recording all our projects and programmes. 106 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:09,440 So our role is to ensure that that is being used and we can 107 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,040 see the benefits actually of all the projects and programmes 108 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,000 being run. So it's the first step in 109 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,680 bringing all that project information under one umbrella, 110 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:20,480 if you like, but not taking away the project delivery from the 111 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:24,400 local areas in the RSPB. And some of those areas will be 112 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:26,600 overseas. So although we don't have a 113 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:30,120 direct link through to those overseas projects and 114 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:34,320 programmes, the projects are being managed using our works. 115 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:39,040 So we are here to help those projects being be run well and 116 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,040 and achieve the benefits that they are hoping to achieve. 117 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,120 What do you enjoy about working at RSPB? 118 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,240 I've been in lots of sectors, so I've been in the IT sector, I've 119 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:55,280 been in the charity sector for the last, golly, 17 years. 120 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,040 I've also been in financial sector outsourcing. 121 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,440 I think from the charity perspective, it's actually 122 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:03,960 working for an organisation that's putting something back. 123 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:09,240 So it's not just about building things or making money for 124 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,040 shareholders. We're putting something back 125 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,880 into the community, putting something back into to nature to 126 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:16,320 to make the world a better place. 127 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:22,880 Ashley, tell us a bit about how project management fits in your 128 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:28,240 organisation, how mature it is and what the ambitions are for 129 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:30,640 for the project management function. 130 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:37,039 Project management is part of a strategic management function. 131 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:41,720 And within the strategic management, it's essentially 132 00:08:42,039 --> 00:08:46,400 there's a director role who I report directing to. 133 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:52,160 And then within that function there's also risk and assurance 134 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:57,040 roles and governance roles. And then in terms of the project 135 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:02,000 management, it's just me at the moment in terms of the the 136 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:07,960 projects that are in flight and operation and being developed. 137 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:12,720 But essentially we've then got people delivering those projects 138 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:17,960 that are within schools or estate teams or IT teams. 139 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,560 What we're looking at is the assurance side, the governance 140 00:09:21,560 --> 00:09:25,120 side, ensuring the delivery of those projects. 141 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:30,920 But it's, it's obviously since it's evolved since April of last 142 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:35,560 year, a lot less mature. And so part of the role that I'm 143 00:09:35,560 --> 00:09:40,200 in now is really trying to develop that maturity and using 144 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:44,240 framework that essentially is the APM framework. 145 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:49,560 So from my knowledge from working in other organisations 146 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:55,000 and using the APM framework, it's it's bringing that kind of 147 00:09:55,840 --> 00:10:00,400 structure and kind of supporting my colleagues on that journey. 148 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,480 Really in terms of the aspirations for the 149 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,560 organisation. It's an interesting time because 150 00:10:06,560 --> 00:10:11,280 we're getting more and more interest and knowledge around 151 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:15,120 projects, obviously since we've launched the major projects fund 152 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,560 for the schools to bid into, but also through the development of 153 00:10:18,560 --> 00:10:23,200 the strategy and the emerging new projects that sit within 154 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,560 that strategy. It's very timely to look at 155 00:10:26,560 --> 00:10:30,040 whether or not we will have in the future a larger project 156 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,120 management function. So that's part of what I'm 157 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,320 looking at as well. And so as part of that, I'm also 158 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,560 exploring apprenticeship providers and looking at whether 159 00:10:39,560 --> 00:10:44,160 we could have apprenticeships and kind of grow our own team in 160 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:50,160 Heist or other routes. And also the aspiration for 161 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,280 young people within schools, project management, still a 162 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:58,480 fairly new career and obviously less known to some of our our 163 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:03,400 students than say careers in, in medical, medicine, law, 164 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,400 etcetera. So again another another kind of 165 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,720 opportunity is to raise the profile within the schools. 166 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:16,480 How do you communicate what project management is to the 167 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:18,640 rest of the people in an organisation who might not 168 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:22,280 necessarily be familiar with it or might think it's one? 169 00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:25,520 You know, it's all about Gantt charts and project management is 170 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:27,680 just going to stifle what you do. 171 00:11:27,680 --> 00:11:29,880 It's going to be boring. It's going to be bureaucracy. 172 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,600 So how do you communicate what project management is? 173 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,520 What have you found to be successful? 174 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:41,240 It's basically hide the wiring, hide the jargon, spoil it right 175 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,000 back to the simplest thing. What's in it for that 176 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,720 individual? So when they contact you on 177 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,840 either, you know, it's usually like a teens chat or an e-mail 178 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,680 or they phone you, they've got something that they want from 179 00:11:55,680 --> 00:11:59,440 that conversation. So it'll typically be, I will 180 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,280 get an approach from a school where they're looking at, 181 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:07,120 they've got a fledgling idea for a project and they want to know 182 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,240 if it's a fundable project, which means it has to sort of 183 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:15,320 sit within our wider strategy. So it's boiling it back to when 184 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,960 I meet them and what that project idea is, and then 185 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:23,600 developing that idea with people so that it's got a wider, 186 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:27,040 perhaps a wider remit than their first thinking. 187 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:31,120 Because the first thought can be something that's just very, very 188 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:34,560 centric to one individual school and quite a small number of 189 00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:37,640 individuals in reality. So it's sort of starting to 190 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:39,160 think, well, how does this join up? 191 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,120 How does this, how is this hitting our strategy? 192 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,760 And it's for me, it's always like boiling it back to very 193 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:49,440 simple terms. So don't talk in any kind of 194 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:54,320 jargon about assurance compliance benefits, but just 195 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,640 literally sit and listen and listen more than you speak. 196 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:02,200 Listen to their ideas. And then, you know, good old 197 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:07,480 kind of old fashioned pen and paper, post it notes, build 198 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:12,640 their ideas, be there as the person that people can go to and 199 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:17,120 you deal with the jargon. And then essentially if a 200 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:21,560 project's in the delivery mode, because obviously on the 201 00:13:21,560 --> 00:13:24,280 delivery side, I've tried to make sure that everything's 202 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:28,680 clear from the assurance piece for our executive committee. 203 00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:32,840 So that kind of report and it's really boiling it back again to 204 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,880 what do they need to know? They don't want to read through 205 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:41,000 loads of lengthy reports, very simple rag status, red, amber, 206 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:45,960 green, anything that's jargon, keep it eye, just very simple 207 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:50,720 and you know, just constantly keeping things simple for 208 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:52,720 people. I think you then get much better 209 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:56,520 engagement. The other thing I want to ask 210 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,880 you is you've obviously straddled both the corporate 211 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,960 world, the charity world, the education sector. 212 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,760 How transferable have your project management skills been 213 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:12,160 and have you got any advice for people who might be listening 214 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:14,720 and thinking? I've worked in corporate side of 215 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:16,680 things, can I move over to charity side of things? 216 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:23,600 I think essentially just have that self belief that if you 217 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,960 enjoy what you do, you like talking to people, you're 218 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:33,560 interested in people, you can go into any sector, you can find 219 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:36,960 out what you need to know because you don't have to be the 220 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,200 subject matter expert. It's about your attitude and 221 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:45,160 your behaviours and you know, know your knowledge in project 222 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,240 management and, and have those transferable skills. 223 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,320 But don't worry, you know, if you want to get, if you're 224 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,520 currently working in the food industry and you want to work in 225 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,640 the nuclear industry, you can still learn that and there's 226 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,600 still always time, whatever stage of your career you're at. 227 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:06,040 David, tell us a bit about the RSPB and how to put well. 228 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,720 You've given us an understanding of how how project management 229 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:13,840 fits in, but how mature it is and what are your future 230 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,600 ambitions for project management within the RSPB? 231 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:24,120 So I think with any charity organisation, project management 232 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:28,000 is something that's relatively new. 233 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,680 So it's a, it's an, it's a new profession coming into it. 234 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:35,840 And so we're working to increase the maturity. 235 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,800 And while we do have a number of of projects and programme 236 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,080 professionals across the organisation, what we're trying 237 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,760 to do is really, as we, like Ashley, highlight to the 238 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:51,440 organisation the project and programme group of people as an 239 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,760 important aspect of of any organisation, but particularly a 240 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,400 charity. It's part of that, selling the 241 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,120 benefits of it. Yes, absolutely. 242 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:05,440 From a charity perspective, the money we need to spend needs to 243 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,520 be against our charitable objectives. 244 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:12,520 So we get money in, we get income in from individuals, from 245 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:14,320 organisations who work in partnership. 246 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:19,040 So what we want to do is spend as much as that as possible on 247 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:22,240 our charitable objectives. And so something like project 248 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,560 management needs to show its benefit. 249 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,920 So we can invest in something like project management to make 250 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,680 sure that we are delivering towards our strategy exactly as 251 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:36,200 actually said and ensuring that it's not an overhead as 252 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,440 perceived by some people in the organisation. 253 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,960 So from a maturity perspective, we we want to invest in 254 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,600 individuals and the group of projects and programme managers 255 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:49,720 and those people who are managing projects who may not be 256 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,880 professional projects and programme managers, but do that 257 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:58,240 in a way that shows a benefit to the wider organisation. 258 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,720 So it's not a means to an end in in and of itself, it has to be a 259 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,800 means to have the charitable ends of the organisation. 260 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,800 What are the sort of unique challenges you face in in an 261 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:10,880 organisation like RSV? You already talked about the 262 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:12,839 kind of funding and money side of things. 263 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,960 Are there anything else, any other challenges that are unique 264 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,720 that you've overcome? I'm not sure they they're 265 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:25,400 unique, but as again, charities have within them people who are 266 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,160 really passionate about you know what we do, You know, we 267 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:29,920 wouldn't work for charity unless we were. 268 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:36,160 So it's how do we harness that energy into some of the, dare I 269 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,040 say, back office things? And a lot of people perceive 270 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,560 things like project management as a, as a back office function. 271 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:47,720 So how do we, how do we harness that passion and that energy 272 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:54,280 without stifling some of that creativity within those people 273 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:56,840 that want to work for a charity and deliver something? 274 00:17:57,760 --> 00:17:59,840 My next question is how? How do you do that? 275 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,320 Is it very much in the storytelling side of things? 276 00:18:03,360 --> 00:18:07,640 We have to express every project in a way that shows how it's 277 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:11,440 delivering towards our strategic outcomes, and the language 278 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,360 around those may be a little bit different because we're not 279 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:16,600 building cars, we're not creating widgets. 280 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:21,920 How do you describe something that may not achieve a benefit 281 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:26,280 for someone's lifetime? How do you describe it as part 282 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:28,200 of an objective within a project? 283 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,600 We're not at the end of that journey yet and we still need to 284 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,600 do more work around that because I think there is a lot of 285 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,880 business language within the project management, any project 286 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,240 management framework. So how do we use that language 287 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:46,280 that best fits in an organisation that is maybe more 288 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,880 useful using a very different kind of language without it 289 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,720 sounding like jargon. So it's it's how we try and 290 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:58,040 soften the jargon, keep it to a level where where we're working 291 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,040 with funders or partners rather organisations. 292 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,120 They can understand that we are managing projects in a 293 00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:07,160 structured way but within the organisation, not make it seem 294 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:09,360 like a completely foreign language of those people who 295 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,800 whose role is not directly deliver projects. 296 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:19,040 We're APM, the only chartered membership organisation for the 297 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,360 project profession. When you become an APM member, 298 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,880 you'll receive the resources and support you need to make an 299 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,320 impact, delivering better projects with better outcomes. 300 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,880 Plus, you'll access exclusive training and benefits to support 301 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,120 your ongoing career development. We'll find out how we can help 302 00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:39,000 you reach your potential by visiting apm.org.uk. 303 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,080 Because when projects succeed, society benefits. 304 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,080 I wanted to move on to discuss digital transformation, how 305 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:51,800 that's affected your organisation? 306 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,040 Have you worked on on any projects related to this and and 307 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,400 how has digital transformation affected the way you run your 308 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,600 own projects? David, do you want to give us 309 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:07,240 some insights into how the RSPB is affected by all of this and 310 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:12,160 your work? The real catalyst certainly last 311 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,600 few years for the digital transformation was the whole 312 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,200 COVID and working from home and everybody, you know, working 313 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:24,440 remotely and no longer being able to have those corridor 314 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,880 conversations and talking to people walking down the corridor 315 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:29,440 and speaking to people in other offices. 316 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,120 So it brought us together digitally. 317 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:37,240 And what that has meant was we're using those digital 318 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:42,000 opportunities to share, collaborate and work together. 319 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:49,000 So information repositories such as SharePoint and also managing 320 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:56,240 various aspects of collaborating through functions like teams are 321 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,440 certainly changed as how we work as an organisation. 322 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:04,640 And in the last couple of years we took the step to digitise our 323 00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:09,400 project management methodology. So moving away from the Word and 324 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,920 Excel and PowerPoint based project management through to a 325 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:19,760 project and programme management system, which for the first time 326 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,000 has brought all of that project and programme management into 327 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:29,800 one place, which means we can start comparing like with like 328 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,880 for decision makers. So it's making it easier for 329 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:38,560 those people at the project gateways to approve or check on 330 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,040 project progress as they move through those gateways. 331 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,200 How difficult was it to introduce this to the 332 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,680 organisation? It was difficult, I won't, I 333 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,560 won't say it wasn't and we're not at the end of the journey 334 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:52,480 yet. So, you know, as with any 335 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,520 organisation, we are moving through that change curve. 336 00:21:55,720 --> 00:22:01,400 So it has been a challenge to move people away from the 337 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,600 comfort of how they've always worked, using the the tools 338 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:11,080 they've always worked with, through to using a single tool 339 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:17,120 that maybe restricts some of the more local ways of working that 340 00:22:17,120 --> 00:22:19,320 have evolved over time through necessity. 341 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:21,520 So what? So what this always brings, what 342 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:25,080 this digitization brings is standardisation, which is a 343 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:30,400 dirty word for for many people in any organisation, I think 344 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,120 because you get used to your own ways of working. 345 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:37,120 So what we've had to do is show the benefit of it, but show that 346 00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:41,040 we are, we've moved from one way of working to another. 347 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:46,000 We have transformed that. But what we try to do as part of 348 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:51,000 that move is keep a lot of the language the same, keep a lot of 349 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,960 some of the functionality to be very similar. 350 00:22:54,840 --> 00:23:00,360 So we we took the adapt and adopt approach when we brought 351 00:23:00,360 --> 00:23:02,720 in the new system. So some of the change was 352 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,840 adapting to the new system, but some of the ways of working were 353 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,000 adopting to the organisation previous ways of working. 354 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:11,760 So you had some flexibility there. 355 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,680 Yes, we've had to bring some of that flexibility in because the 356 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,680 breadth and scale and scope of the work that we do means that 357 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,760 you can't have A1 size fits all approach. 358 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:28,080 So what we've had to do is embed something that is relatively 359 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,640 flexible as in in its approach. So it's it's one system, it has 360 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:33,960 one set of forms that you go through. 361 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,680 Those forms are the same for any type or any size of project, but 362 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:43,200 there is guidance that we provide that describes that 363 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:47,480 depending on the complexity of the work that you may be doing. 364 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,080 So the complexity of the project here we see how you can adapt 365 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,840 those forms. So these are the bits you need 366 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:55,000 to fill in. These are the bits you don't 367 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,440 necessarily need to fill in. These are the logs that are 368 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,200 really useful for you. These are not necessarily the 369 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,280 logs that allows people to be a bit more flexible locally with 370 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,680 how they're, how they're using those those frameworks. 371 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,400 So what we've what we've done is bring in some, what we've called 372 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:15,240 them essential areas that are one size for all projects. 373 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,320 And then beyond that there is some guidance about best 374 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,680 practise and what you you use in the framework around that. 375 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,720 What have been the benefits of introducing this kind of 376 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,240 standardised system that that either you've that you've 377 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,080 experienced and that you communicate to others? 378 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:38,320 So for individuals, if an individual in the organisation 379 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,080 wants to move to another part of the organisation, which which 380 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,840 happens relatively frequency, we're a very mobile internally 381 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,360 organisation, they will they will be using the same system. 382 00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:52,200 So if they move from 1 from 1 country to another country, or 383 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,480 from 1 directorate to another directorate, they know that 384 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,280 they'll be using a standard system within it. 385 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:03,240 From an organisational perspective, it means that we 386 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,480 are able to hold things like risk and lessons and other 387 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,560 things in a single place so we can have a look at them and see 388 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:15,720 what might be impacting across the organisational at a risk 389 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,000 level. We can learn from previous 390 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:24,240 projects, so we may be repeating a similar project in another 391 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,000 part of the organisation. If our lessons learned are all 392 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,680 in that standard format on one system, we could learn and look 393 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,240 back at those lessons and understand what they did well, 394 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,080 what we need to learn from from a decision making perspective. 395 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:42,960 The decision makers, decision makers are comparing similar 396 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:44,480 information that's coming towards them. 397 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,720 It's not been presented to them in a different format in a 398 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,960 different way. They can understand that when 399 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:53,240 they see one project proposal coming to them, it will look and 400 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,400 feel the same as another project proposal coming to them, so they 401 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:57,680 can compare them if they need to. 402 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,840 At an organisation level, we can actually report on the number of 403 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,240 projects, where they are in their life cycle, the cumulative 404 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,560 risk and so on. That enables us as an 405 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:13,120 organisation to understand the sort of breadth, depth and scale 406 00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:17,960 of projects that we are running. Ashley, what about for your 407 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,920 organisation? How's digital transformation 408 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,840 affected the way you run projects or affected the 409 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:26,280 organisation? How you've been? 410 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,360 I know you haven't been there very long, but how have you been 411 00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:34,000 able to get to grips with that? So in terms of the stage that 412 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:38,840 we're at, we are rolling out Microsoft across all of the 413 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,840 schools. So the IT department are working 414 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,120 on that. What were they using before? 415 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,120 Was it just each school had a different system? 416 00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:51,320 So each school had different systems. 417 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:56,120 So where we're aiming for is that all schools are on 418 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:02,640 Microsoft as their in house system and and then essentially 419 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,760 for every school there's that easy communication through Teams 420 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,560 etcetera. In terms of our in house tools, 421 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:17,960 we are using Microsoft as the key tools in terms of project 422 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,080 management. So the Planner tool, Microsoft 423 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:26,520 Project Excel and essentially from a reporting point of view, 424 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:31,480 everything's, you know, in kind of that format, the kind of the 425 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:38,040 PPDM framework, the the type of technology that David's talking 426 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,320 about. I think we're probably a few 427 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,200 years away from using something like that. 428 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,720 But what we are looking to do and we're just starting to 429 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,400 requirements map it at the moment is find from the 430 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:55,080 requirements a way of demonstrating at an individual 431 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,360 level the links between the individual delivery of 432 00:27:59,360 --> 00:28:03,800 objectives through to with strategic outcomes. 433 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:09,200 And so we have been exploring that within the Microsoft Office 434 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,880 tool set. And we did think that we had a 435 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,920 tool that we were going to use purely for that. 436 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,200 But there's been some changes within Microsoft that mean that 437 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:19,400 we're not going to be using that. 438 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,080 So we're kind of back to the drawing board with that at the 439 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,320 moment. I want to ask both of you, just 440 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,600 from having listened to you about where you think the future 441 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,600 of project management lies within the world of charities. 442 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,400 You know, when I've interviewed other project professionals 443 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,400 across organisations that quite senior levels, it's very much 444 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,760 making that jump up into the kind of executive C-Suite. 445 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,400 You know, having project professionals at the very top of 446 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:51,000 the organisation who's speaking to the CEO or whoever about how 447 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,200 to put the strategy into place. How do you, how do you make it 448 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,000 happen? I'll be really interested to 449 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,680 know what you base think about that perspective and where you 450 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,880 think the future might lie. So David, where do you think 451 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:09,520 this is headed? I think charities will be well 452 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,120 out of necessity need to be working more closely together 453 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,240 and so project management may, it may come a point where where 454 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,520 project management is running across charities. 455 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,080 Oh, that's interesting. Why? 456 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:23,760 Why? Why? 457 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:28,200 I think as well because a lot of, a lot of not just charities, 458 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,760 but a lot of organisations are doing similar things and a lot 459 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:35,760 of charities are are looking for that, that income or looking for 460 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:40,680 that working with others to actually try and deliver their 461 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,600 strategy. So our many strategies, 462 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,960 strategic aims are greater than what an individual charity may 463 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,360 be able to do simply because of the resources available. 464 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,720 So we will need to work very closely with others to deliver 465 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,800 some of our strategic outcomes. So I think project management as 466 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,120 as it does now, you know, many of our projects have worked in 467 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:10,560 partnership with other large organisations, local governments 468 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,640 and others. So I think one of the big 469 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:18,320 aspects of the future ways of working is, is how projects can 470 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,680 run across multiple organisations. 471 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,000 And what does that mean? So if our framework is different 472 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,240 to another organisation framework and we have 473 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,520 successfully embedded them in our own organisations, what does 474 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,440 that mean for those for those projects have to work together 475 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,600 on a project? We have, we haven't worked that 476 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,520 out yet, but it's something we're we're definitely looking 477 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,120 at. And I think as an organisation 478 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:47,920 it's it's internally, it's that professionalisation of that 479 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:53,880 project and programme management function that actually is 480 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:59,680 describing its value to the organisation and actually 481 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:04,800 putting it Brunton centre of some of the delivery that that 482 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:10,080 we have to do to to achieve the things we want to achieve. 483 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,040 A lot of our work is done what we call our business as usual 484 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,800 work is, is done by everyone every day. 485 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,640 If we make, if we're going to need to make substantial changes 486 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:27,360 to, to the to reduce the impact of of climate change or to 487 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:31,200 improve some of the landscapes of some of the species we want 488 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:36,280 to work with, that involves a change that can really only be 489 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,440 run through projects. Actually, do you agree with 490 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:40,560 that? What are your thoughts? 491 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,920 Yeah, very much so. I think in terms of the 492 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:50,920 development of strategy and the delivery of strategy and it's it 493 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:56,000 is confined. I think the actual kind of the 494 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,680 strategic side of project management is confined to a much 495 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:05,160 smaller number of people. That that knowledge, like you've 496 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:09,440 mentioned, Emma, being confined to kind of the C-Suite and kind 497 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:14,320 of really understanding that it feels to really drive benefits 498 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:19,160 across charities. That a positive thing would be 499 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:25,720 ways across charities of enabling, particularly now that 500 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,120 people are able to work more remotely. 501 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:34,440 Opportunities for people to network and come in to actually 502 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:40,240 kind of almost audit the work that's going on and to give 503 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:44,240 fresh pairs of eyes. Because I think one of the 504 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:50,240 things that most charities benefit from is, is having that 505 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:54,680 kind of holistic look and that little bit of, you know, kind of 506 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,640 peer review almost, you know, what are our challenges and how 507 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:03,000 do we get move forward? Because for a lot of charities, 508 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:08,880 the the staffing is quite small and it's a really positive thing 509 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,760 to bring someone else in to have a look. 510 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:17,480 But often for charities, they've got very limited budgets to use 511 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,960 consultants. And you know, using a consultant 512 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:26,120 is really, really expensive. But if there's a way of having a 513 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,120 network and opportunities where you can kind of peer review, you 514 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:34,640 can share ideas, you can listen, it's like gold dust really. 515 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:39,200 It adds so much value. What have been the biggest 516 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,240 lessons when it comes to project management that you've sticks up 517 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,040 over your career that you'd want to pass on to to people 518 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:51,280 listening, David? It takes a long time to embed, 519 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:57,840 so don't underestimate it. Also, I think as well, it's 520 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:04,520 expressing it in a way and I think that if you like the 521 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,800 project management professionalism has moved in 522 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,159 this direction. It's move, it's trying to move 523 00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:16,480 it away from forms towards function. 524 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:23,360 So it's moving it more towards how does project management fit 525 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:27,719 in with the function and of individual organisation rather 526 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:33,239 than try and bend an organisation to the form of 527 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:37,679 project management. So if you think about how you 528 00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:41,880 manage a project and you take away some of the dry language 529 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:48,000 around it, it's actually how all of us as individuals plan stuff. 530 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,280 I like using the word stuff because I think that can kind of 531 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,800 that that takes some of the the language out of it. 532 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,120 We all, we all do stuff. Some of that stuff we happen to 533 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,320 run as projects. Some of that stuff we happen to 534 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,720 not run as projects. So it's it's don't, don't, don't 535 00:35:03,720 --> 00:35:08,040 always try and shoehorn the language in, but also understand 536 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:12,120 that as individuals, how we run a project is often how we we run 537 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,840 our daily lives. So it's we have an idea, we plan 538 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,360 for the idea, we decide whether we're going to do that idea or 539 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:19,920 not. We move forward with it. 540 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,800 Bringing some of that personal perspective in is always useful 541 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:30,320 and adapting what you think as being the key things that you 542 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,760 need to embed as part of your project management framework. 543 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,600 Adapting those to the organisation in which it's going 544 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:42,920 to have to live, breathe and be useful because if you don't it 545 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:47,480 will be harder to get people to use it because they will save 546 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:49,480 something as being other and outside. 547 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,240 Ashley, what do you think? What's your what's your lesson 548 00:35:53,240 --> 00:35:57,680 that you pass on? I would just say don't expect 549 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,840 everything to go smoothly all of the time because actually on the 550 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:06,160 percentage of things that go smoothly, it's, you know, 551 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:10,840 there's a high amount of business change and risk in any 552 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:12,440 projects. Even very small, 553 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,520 straightforward, simple projects can just go completely left 554 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,760 field. Obviously you're doing all these 555 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,480 things to track risks, issues, you're bringing all your 556 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,560 stakeholders together, you're doing all your assurance piece, 557 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:29,960 you've got your governance around it in terms of a career 558 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,720 or working on projects, you'll come into contact with lots and 559 00:36:33,720 --> 00:36:37,680 lots of people, all walks of life, but things won't go 560 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:42,120 smoothly all the time. My key tip is always stay calm. 561 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:48,160 You know, just stay really calm and work with a no blame culture 562 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:52,960 on everything that you do and try and create in your own 563 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,680 working environments. So the meetings that you hold, 564 00:36:55,680 --> 00:37:00,560 the dialogues you hold, the sessions you run one to ones, 565 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,680 anything, any interaction with people, just create a safe space 566 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,440 and harmony for others to work. I don't mean by that be a 567 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:12,400 pushover or anything like that. You know, have those key 568 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:20,360 leadership qualities really be a person who can do be +1 of my 569 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,000 key tips is always walk in the shoes of others. 570 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,840 So someone's getting very stressed about something. 571 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:32,040 Try and unpack in your mind that they've come to work and they 572 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,160 may have lots of other things that are going on in their 573 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:36,800 lives. You know, they might have had 574 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,720 zero, might have sleep the night before because they've had a 575 00:37:39,720 --> 00:37:41,360 child that's had them up all night. 576 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:48,400 And just, you know, understand others where resistance arises. 577 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,520 It's easy sometimes I think, or it's an earlier in your career 578 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,920 mistake to make to think, Oh no, that's all gone wrong and it's 579 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,960 all my fault or this person's being awkward or difficult. 580 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,160 My top tip would just be stop and think and look at everything 581 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,600 holistically. I could spend another hour 582 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,200 talking to you because you're just passing us a really 583 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,760 valuable advice. And what I'm getting from it is 584 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,600 as much about the relationships that you're managing as, as the 585 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:17,960 systems. In fact, it's probably more 586 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,160 about how do you speak to other humans about what you're doing 587 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,520 so they understand and, and, and help you get there in the end. 588 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:28,080 So I just leaves me to say thank you, massive thank you to both 589 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,080 of you for your time. Thank you. 590 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,400 Thank you very much. Thanks for the opportunity. 591 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,360 Thanks again to Ashley and David for joining us and to you for 592 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,520 listening to the APM Podcast. Don't forget to look out for 593 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,360 more episodes or to rate and review us wherever you get your 594 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,800 podcasts. We'd welcome you to get in touch 595 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,200 with your comments, feedback and suggestions by emailing us at 596 00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:02,280 apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. Spotify users can also send us 597 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:04,480 feedback directly within the Spotify app. 598 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,480 This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the chartered body 599 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,960 for the project profession. For more information on APM, 600 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,400 visit apm.org.uk.