1 00:00:09,090 --> 00:00:12,500 Welcome to the APM Podcast. AM is the chartered body for the 2 00:00:12,510 --> 00:00:15,350 project profession. My name is Emma De Vita and I'm 3 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,900 the editor of Project APM's Quarterly Journal and your host 4 00:00:19,310 --> 00:00:21,520 in this podcast. I'm speaking to three women 5 00:00:21,530 --> 00:00:24,220 about menopause in the workplace, specifically working 6 00:00:24,230 --> 00:00:28,870 in projects with me a 2 project professionals, Rachel Jackson, a 7 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:32,800 lead planet, Anglo American, and Joe Roberts, Head of Strategy at 8 00:00:32,810 --> 00:00:36,790 the Department for Transport's. Also joining us is Ali Dilkes, a 9 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:40,930 nurse specialising in menopause. We'll be sharing experiences and 10 00:00:40,940 --> 00:00:43,590 advice for everyone who wants to find out how to best deal with 11 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,520 being menopausal and how to best support a colleague who might be 12 00:00:46,530 --> 00:00:50,820 experiencing this. Dalton 2023 issue of APM's 13 00:00:50,830 --> 00:00:54,000 Project Journal also covers this topic, so please do make sure 14 00:00:54,010 --> 00:00:59,550 you grab a copy. Welcome everyone. 15 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,950 Thanks for joining me. Why don't we begin with everyone 16 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,250 giving a brief introduction about what they do, the work 17 00:01:05,260 --> 00:01:08,930 they do, and their interest or experience in the menopause. 18 00:01:08,940 --> 00:01:14,320 So, Ali, let's begin with you. So my name's Ali Dokes and I've 19 00:01:14,330 --> 00:01:17,310 been a nurse for 38 years. Most of my career husband and 20 00:01:17,320 --> 00:01:19,130 Women's Health. I used to be a midwife and I've 21 00:01:19,140 --> 00:01:22,750 had a special interest in the menopause for the past 15 years 22 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,550 since my own menopause. I'm gonna subscriber. 23 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:27,730 I'm a member of British Menopause Society and I'm 24 00:01:27,740 --> 00:01:30,510 British Menopause Society accredited specialists and I 25 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:34,310 have my own private menopause clinic based in Leicester and 26 00:01:34,320 --> 00:01:38,290 also in Ely and Cambridgeshire where offer women consultations 27 00:01:38,300 --> 00:01:40,210 to discuss their own menopause journey. 28 00:01:40,220 --> 00:01:43,690 Explain about menopause, then come up with a plan and I see 29 00:01:43,700 --> 00:01:46,470 moment either face to face my clinics or do virtual 30 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,530 consultations as well. My interest in the menopause 31 00:01:49,540 --> 00:01:53,120 started when I was 40. Actually I was working. 32 00:01:53,190 --> 00:01:56,010 Was in Advanced Nurse Practitioner in a busy GP 33 00:01:56,020 --> 00:01:58,520 surgery. I was recently divorced and I 34 00:01:58,530 --> 00:02:02,050 had an emergency hysterectomy and nobody ever mentioned 35 00:02:02,060 --> 00:02:05,040 menopausal HRT to me. I went more or less straight 36 00:02:05,050 --> 00:02:08,130 back to work because I couldn't afford to have any time off work 37 00:02:08,220 --> 00:02:11,290 and I had three teenage children and I just suddenly started 38 00:02:11,300 --> 00:02:15,190 struggling doing a job that I've been doing for about 9 years. 39 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,470 I had no memory, I couldn't concentrate, I lost all my 40 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:20,750 confidence. I felt really anxious. 41 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,670 I couldn't remember simple jokes that I've been describing for 42 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,770 several years and if I could have afforded to, I would have 43 00:02:26,780 --> 00:02:29,250 given up my job and changed. But a lower paid job. 44 00:02:29,260 --> 00:02:31,550 But as a single parent I had to keep working. 45 00:02:32,210 --> 00:02:35,600 And the surgery that I was working in had three male GPS, 46 00:02:35,650 --> 00:02:39,040 so most of the women with health problems tended to come to me. 47 00:02:39,150 --> 00:02:40,490 And I saw a bit of a theme really. 48 00:02:40,500 --> 00:02:43,500 There was lots of women around my age or older, they were 49 00:02:43,510 --> 00:02:46,040 complaining of similar things because I haven't had any hot 50 00:02:46,050 --> 00:02:48,140 flushes so I hadn't really hadn't crossed my mind it. 51 00:02:48,150 --> 00:02:50,640 Could be the menopause but. Then we're going to think, well, 52 00:02:50,650 --> 00:02:52,470 there must be something a bit more to this. 53 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,820 So I did a little bit of research, went to see my GP and 54 00:02:55,830 --> 00:02:58,420 said I think it might be menopausal and kind of have some 55 00:02:58,430 --> 00:03:01,540 HRT which she prescribed for me straight away. 56 00:03:01,550 --> 00:03:04,420 And within weeks I felt better. You know, I've got my memory 57 00:03:04,430 --> 00:03:07,480 back, I've got my confidence back and I could function again. 58 00:03:07,490 --> 00:03:10,260 So that's really where my interest in the menopause came 59 00:03:10,270 --> 00:03:12,860 from, because I realised. Far too many women were 60 00:03:12,870 --> 00:03:16,060 suffering in silence, so I joined fishermen across the city 61 00:03:16,150 --> 00:03:19,230 and then eventually I settled my my own clinic about five years 62 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,150 ago. Joe, do you want first bit about 63 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:26,140 yourself and your work and your interests or experience in this 64 00:03:26,150 --> 00:03:28,720 subject? I'm Joe Roberts. 65 00:03:28,730 --> 00:03:31,930 So I'm currently head of strategy at Department for 66 00:03:31,940 --> 00:03:34,250 Transport. I've been working in project 67 00:03:34,260 --> 00:03:37,280 management for the last 18 or so years of my life. 68 00:03:37,470 --> 00:03:41,480 My interest in perimenopause kind of happened during the 69 00:03:41,490 --> 00:03:44,580 pandemic when one period stopped altogether. 70 00:03:44,630 --> 00:03:48,500 I was 39 and I was just really confused and just thought I put 71 00:03:48,510 --> 00:03:51,100 it down initially. So not having any female contact 72 00:03:51,110 --> 00:03:52,780 us. I live with my husband and my 73 00:03:52,790 --> 00:03:56,220 son and after about 8 months they started to come back. 74 00:03:56,230 --> 00:03:59,180 But they came back even more painful than they've ever been 75 00:03:59,190 --> 00:04:02,560 before and I just knew something wasn't quite right. 76 00:04:02,790 --> 00:04:05,380 I began taking this. My symptoms, I had friends say. 77 00:04:05,390 --> 00:04:07,300 I think it's the menopause, but you're way too young. 78 00:04:07,380 --> 00:04:10,760 Only 39 and I was like age isn't anything to do with it. 79 00:04:10,770 --> 00:04:15,660 I think it's you know happening and it was only just after 10:40 80 00:04:15,670 --> 00:04:17,800 that I managed to get access to HRT. 81 00:04:18,250 --> 00:04:21,220 I'm still kind of trying to trying lots of things out, 82 00:04:21,230 --> 00:04:24,680 tweaking because I'm not the person that I used to be. 83 00:04:24,750 --> 00:04:28,100 But when when it's right for the month or so that it's all the 84 00:04:28,110 --> 00:04:33,360 stars are lying, I feel like 25 year old Joe again, not achy, 85 00:04:33,370 --> 00:04:39,700 creepy, brain fog, everything. So I'm particularly keen to kind 86 00:04:39,710 --> 00:04:43,400 of really emphasise any problems I come across because I figure 87 00:04:43,410 --> 00:04:46,490 if I'm if I'm having difficulty with menopause then it's. 88 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:48,500 Highly likely that my peers are too. 89 00:04:48,730 --> 00:04:51,900 Um, so I'm not afraid to talk about it at work. 90 00:04:51,950 --> 00:04:55,180 Even with male colleagues, they all know that I'm perimenopausal 91 00:04:55,190 --> 00:04:57,500 and get really hot and get really forgetful. 92 00:04:57,770 --> 00:05:00,480 Because I think that we need to be having these conversations. 93 00:05:00,490 --> 00:05:03,540 People need to know about it. Everyone is affected, whether 94 00:05:03,550 --> 00:05:07,500 you are male or identify as female, because you have a woman 95 00:05:07,510 --> 00:05:12,230 in your life and Rachel. I'm Rachel Jackson. 96 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,490 I work in mining at the moment. I've been working in project 97 00:05:15,500 --> 00:05:18,650 management for over 20 odd years now. 98 00:05:18,700 --> 00:05:21,630 In my late 30s, I was diagnosed with cancer and I had 99 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,330 chemotherapy. And then I went very rapidly 100 00:05:24,340 --> 00:05:28,030 into the menopause and I I really suffered a sense of 101 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,540 identity crisis. First you've got cancer and lose 102 00:05:31,550 --> 00:05:33,830 your hair and all that, and then you go out of that and you're in 103 00:05:33,840 --> 00:05:36,010 the menopause much longer than expected. 104 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,950 And symptom wise I, you know, memory loss, lack of 105 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:44,330 concentration, poor sleep. I was very fortunate because I 106 00:05:44,340 --> 00:05:47,870 was already in the medical system to get a lot of help HRT 107 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,620 wise. But I did find in work partly 108 00:05:51,630 --> 00:05:54,510 because I was having an identity crisis, it was difficult for me 109 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,850 to talk about in a very male dominated environment. 110 00:05:57,890 --> 00:06:01,930 And what I also found quite frustrating was to hear people 111 00:06:01,940 --> 00:06:04,870 say, oh we're losing women left, right and centre, particularly 112 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:09,130 the senior women. And yet there's not really much 113 00:06:09,420 --> 00:06:13,490 done at this moment in time, in my opinion, to to open up the 114 00:06:13,500 --> 00:06:15,830 conversation, certainly at the senior. 115 00:06:15,970 --> 00:06:19,500 Levels to say, well actually most of the women at that level 116 00:06:19,510 --> 00:06:24,470 will be of a of a menopausal age and they've got a challenge of 117 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:27,760 all of these symptoms. So sort of having experienced it 118 00:06:27,770 --> 00:06:30,470 myself, got quite passionate on the subject. 119 00:06:31,610 --> 00:06:34,760 Well, hopefully this podcast will go some way into kind of 120 00:06:34,770 --> 00:06:37,340 enlightening people and spreading the word about how to 121 00:06:37,350 --> 00:06:40,280 support women. So I think it would be useful 122 00:06:40,290 --> 00:06:44,380 for listeners if we could go back to basics and Get the facts 123 00:06:44,390 --> 00:06:46,460 about the menopause and what it actually means and what its 124 00:06:46,470 --> 00:06:50,270 symptoms are. So Ali, if you could briefly 125 00:06:50,280 --> 00:06:53,050 explain what what happens to you in the menopause? 126 00:06:54,300 --> 00:06:55,690 So the money, of course it is an option. 127 00:06:55,700 --> 00:06:58,650 It will happen to some women at some point in their lives. 128 00:06:58,660 --> 00:07:01,990 The average age of the menopause is 51, and life expectancy for 129 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,010 women in the UK is 83. So women potentially spend a 130 00:07:05,020 --> 00:07:07,450 third of their lives postmenopausal. 131 00:07:07,660 --> 00:07:10,230 And menopause is when you've gone 12 whole months without a 132 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:11,870 period. So you actually have a menopause 133 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:13,710 day. You go 12 months without a 134 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:15,300 period and that's your menopause. 135 00:07:15,340 --> 00:07:18,070 You wake up the following day and your post menopausal. 136 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,750 But there's a time leading up to the menopause called the 137 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,650 perimenopause, and that's when the hormones start fluctuating 138 00:07:23,740 --> 00:07:25,430 and that's when the symptoms begin. 139 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,650 And that's on average somewhere in your early 40s. 140 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,710 Symptoms can last anything from several months to several 141 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:36,350 decades and the average. And the symptoms is 7 years, But 142 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,090 one in 100 women will go through the menopause under the age of 143 00:07:39,100 --> 00:07:41,890 41. In 1000, women will go through 144 00:07:41,900 --> 00:07:45,850 the menopause under the age of 30, and one in 10,000 women will 145 00:07:45,860 --> 00:07:48,230 go through the menopause under the age of 20. 146 00:07:48,540 --> 00:07:50,630 And then of course, there's other reasons why women have the 147 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:52,490 menopause. There's a chemical menopause if 148 00:07:52,500 --> 00:07:56,370 you have chemotherapy or radiotherapy or drugs to stop 149 00:07:56,380 --> 00:07:58,990 your periods for different medical reasons. 150 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:00,680 And of course, there's the surgical menopause. 151 00:08:00,690 --> 00:08:05,220 When you have your ovaries removed, typically what symptoms 152 00:08:05,270 --> 00:08:07,820 surround it? The Simpsons. 153 00:08:07,830 --> 00:08:11,840 I mean, there are 64 different menopausal symptoms and every 154 00:08:11,850 --> 00:08:14,040 woman's menopause journey is so different. 155 00:08:14,050 --> 00:08:16,780 Some women have all 64. I think I've met women that have 156 00:08:16,790 --> 00:08:20,140 had 65 symptoms and some women don't have any. 157 00:08:20,150 --> 00:08:22,830 So everybody is just so different. 158 00:08:23,030 --> 00:08:24,860 And because hormones are fluctuating during the 159 00:08:24,870 --> 00:08:26,960 perimenopause, symptoms come and go as well. 160 00:08:26,970 --> 00:08:30,700 So I think women often think, oh, I'll get better or oh, it's 161 00:08:30,710 --> 00:08:32,520 gone away now, so I'm OK. I'm sorry. 162 00:08:32,530 --> 00:08:34,090 I've got over it. Ohh. 163 00:08:34,100 --> 00:08:36,159 You forget because of poor memory, you actually forget 164 00:08:36,169 --> 00:08:38,110 about the symptoms. So when you finally do go to see 165 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,200 your GP and talk about it, yeah, just forget half of the symptoms 166 00:08:41,210 --> 00:08:44,580 that you had anyway. Things like brain fog, poor 167 00:08:44,590 --> 00:08:49,090 memory, lack of concentration. Low self esteem, mood swings, 168 00:08:49,100 --> 00:08:54,200 low mood, tearfulness, anxiety, dry eyes isn't really common. 169 00:08:54,210 --> 00:08:58,160 Menopausal symptoms, Tinnitus, heart palpitations, joint pain, 170 00:08:58,260 --> 00:09:02,090 dry skin, dry hair, vagina, dryness and saunas, lack of 171 00:09:02,100 --> 00:09:04,310 libido. The list is endless, really. 172 00:09:05,330 --> 00:09:08,080 Why do you think this sudden interest in the menopause? 173 00:09:08,090 --> 00:09:12,060 Especially talking about it at work and how it affects working 174 00:09:12,070 --> 00:09:14,810 women. Women's Health has always been 175 00:09:14,820 --> 00:09:17,930 the sort of the Cinderella subject in medicine anyway. 176 00:09:17,940 --> 00:09:20,330 It's always been something that's been very overlooked and 177 00:09:20,340 --> 00:09:23,510 women often just get on with it because they're so busy putting 178 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,990 everybody else in their family at a higher priority than their 179 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,660 own health, so they often ignore the symptoms as well. 180 00:09:31,430 --> 00:09:34,380 But I think the big difference, which is, is that the average 181 00:09:34,390 --> 00:09:37,000 age of retirement is being pushed back. 182 00:09:37,010 --> 00:09:39,180 Women are working potentially until they're six or seven 183 00:09:39,190 --> 00:09:41,920 before they get their pension. So women are potentially working 184 00:09:41,930 --> 00:09:46,040 for 17 years post menopause. Cost of living is really going 185 00:09:46,050 --> 00:09:48,180 up. So lots of families do have to 186 00:09:48,190 --> 00:09:51,420 have everybody in the household working because they can't 187 00:09:51,430 --> 00:09:54,510 afford to not work or to work. Part side, a lot of women have 188 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,270 elderly parents look after because they're living longer. 189 00:09:57,310 --> 00:10:00,060 Children may go to university but can't afford to buy houses, 190 00:10:00,070 --> 00:10:01,720 so they come back and they're in the household. 191 00:10:01,730 --> 00:10:04,680 So just the whole cost of living and family dynamics are really 192 00:10:04,690 --> 00:10:07,770 changing and women are doing all these things and struggling with 193 00:10:07,780 --> 00:10:12,830 menopausal symptoms as well. What do you think has changed 194 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:17,090 over the past five or ten years? Even to me, we can have open 195 00:10:17,100 --> 00:10:21,170 conversations about this at work and don't have to suffer in 196 00:10:21,180 --> 00:10:24,960 silence, which is what I think lots of women did before, 197 00:10:24,970 --> 00:10:27,430 certainly, you know, my mum's generation. 198 00:10:27,820 --> 00:10:30,970 Does anyone want to give their view on that, Joe? 199 00:10:31,620 --> 00:10:35,690 Yeah, so go back to the pandemic and remember the lives that we 200 00:10:35,700 --> 00:10:38,460 lived where we're all, you know, petrified of our own shadows, 201 00:10:38,470 --> 00:10:41,470 Didn't want to leave the house. Now that we've come out of that 202 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,030 and we are in the new normal or whatever, I think there's a 203 00:10:45,180 --> 00:10:49,590 large generation of people my age, you know, early 40s now 204 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,590 saying I don't care. I'm going to live my life how I 205 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,150 want to live it. And I'm going to tell people 206 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,610 that I'm suffering. I'm going to be honest about why 207 00:10:58,620 --> 00:11:02,210 I'm off sick this day. I was off sick on Friday. 208 00:11:02,260 --> 00:11:04,730 I had the worst period pain in the world. 209 00:11:04,780 --> 00:11:06,930 It was actually like labour pains. 210 00:11:06,940 --> 00:11:10,320 It was that bad. I I felt so nauseous and I was 211 00:11:10,330 --> 00:11:12,250 just like. Sorry, I'm not going to be able 212 00:11:12,260 --> 00:11:14,230 to do anything today, so see you next. 213 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,470 Week. And I don't think I'd ever been 214 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:18,940 able to do that before. I'd just been like, ohh, I'd 215 00:11:18,950 --> 00:11:22,790 just feeling got flu or I've got a tummy bug or something. 216 00:11:23,180 --> 00:11:27,670 But now, you know it, it affects me not just physically but 217 00:11:27,680 --> 00:11:31,330 mentally. There's so much that is impacted 218 00:11:31,420 --> 00:11:34,090 by the perimenopause, which is what I'm going through at the 219 00:11:34,100 --> 00:11:36,050 moment, you know, got the brain fog. 220 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,230 I can never remember people's names now. 221 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:41,750 I used to be so good with names and faces and now I'm just like, 222 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,490 hi, how are you? And that just makes me feel 223 00:11:45,500 --> 00:11:48,810 quite sad sometimes. I have to write everything down. 224 00:11:48,860 --> 00:11:52,630 Absolutely everything. Down, you know, so work wise, 225 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:54,820 you know everything. I go through so many notebooks 226 00:11:54,830 --> 00:11:57,440 and highlighting and what people are saying to me. 227 00:11:57,450 --> 00:12:00,860 So I I don't kind of miss things and I'm not missing out on 228 00:12:00,870 --> 00:12:03,800 delivery or something because I just have to remember 229 00:12:03,810 --> 00:12:06,600 everything, even the doctor's appointment. 230 00:12:06,690 --> 00:12:10,380 I literally sit there and I take pages of notes into my doctor 231 00:12:10,390 --> 00:12:13,480 and she's just like, Oh my goodness me, because I know I 232 00:12:13,490 --> 00:12:15,480 forget. And you need to know all of 233 00:12:15,490 --> 00:12:19,610 these different things. What ways has it affected your 234 00:12:19,620 --> 00:12:23,210 project work, and how have you found workarounds? 235 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:27,380 And how do you manage your situations so that you can get 236 00:12:27,390 --> 00:12:30,840 what you want, which might be a day at home or more flexible 237 00:12:30,850 --> 00:12:34,130 working? I I'm pretty honest as a person. 238 00:12:34,140 --> 00:12:37,390 I'm, I'm terrible at lying. So when I first sat down with my 239 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,890 my boss, he was talking about something and I went, don't 240 00:12:39,900 --> 00:12:42,390 worry, no risk of another child with me. 241 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:43,720 I'm going through the perimenopause. 242 00:12:43,730 --> 00:12:46,700 And he just looked absolutely aghast and I went, you know, and 243 00:12:46,710 --> 00:12:50,070 this is how it affects me. And I think he just was 244 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:54,170 genuinely really interested to understand how he could support 245 00:12:54,180 --> 00:12:57,050 me, but also quite flabbergasted. 246 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,550 He's incredibly supportive. I've kind of had mentioned in 247 00:13:00,560 --> 00:13:02,810 the intro of kind of going through different iterations of 248 00:13:02,820 --> 00:13:07,470 HRT and how that affects me or disinfects me and means I'm off 249 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,570 sick for whatever reason. Them I had what I thought was a 250 00:13:10,580 --> 00:13:12,250 kidney infection. Earlier in the year and it 251 00:13:12,260 --> 00:13:15,010 wasn't it was actually vaginal atrophy. 252 00:13:15,020 --> 00:13:18,330 And I need pessaries now because I've always literally cannot 253 00:13:18,340 --> 00:13:20,580 function. I was in bed for three weeks. 254 00:13:20,660 --> 00:13:21,850 Yeah. So you'll have to be really 255 00:13:21,860 --> 00:13:24,870 honest now about these things. Well, I don't have to be a part. 256 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,300 I am because I think that I owe it to myself and to people that 257 00:13:28,310 --> 00:13:32,590 are coming behind me to know that actually it's OK to have 258 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:37,550 women's problems and know that it does really hurt and 259 00:13:37,560 --> 00:13:41,410 sometimes you feel terrible. And actually if it was a man 260 00:13:41,420 --> 00:13:45,620 having these kind of pains they they wouldn't be at work like 261 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:50,110 being in an ambulance on the way to hospital, so and and 262 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,790 reasonable. I've had to kind of say when we 263 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,150 have the really great big heat earlier in the year and last 264 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:59,380 year when it was just so I was like there's no way I can come 265 00:13:59,390 --> 00:14:01,890 into the office at all. I'm sorry, you're not getting me 266 00:14:01,900 --> 00:14:04,940 into the office. As government we have to be in I 267 00:14:04,950 --> 00:14:08,590 think 40% of our time, but they're just like that's totally 268 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:10,570 fine. It's it's unreasonable to ask 269 00:14:10,580 --> 00:14:13,860 anyone to do that. You know, it's it's basics like 270 00:14:13,870 --> 00:14:16,270 that. But also we're talking about how 271 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,150 we organise and how I can actually do my job. 272 00:14:19,220 --> 00:14:21,270 A lot of it is writing everything down. 273 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,860 Chatting with people in the round conversations that we're 274 00:14:24,870 --> 00:14:28,130 having, a lot of my work at the moment is around influencing 275 00:14:28,140 --> 00:14:32,330 people's government. So I'm definitely using my 276 00:14:32,380 --> 00:14:36,180 superior skills of emotional intelligence and kind of working 277 00:14:36,190 --> 00:14:39,850 through what people are thinking, what they want and and 278 00:14:39,900 --> 00:14:42,240 all of that. But equally following up with 279 00:14:42,250 --> 00:14:45,550 facts and having to kind of feel like I'm working doubly hard, 280 00:14:45,620 --> 00:14:49,610 double check the actual facts of a situation, how many tonnes of 281 00:14:49,620 --> 00:14:52,150 material we're using or something like that. 282 00:14:52,250 --> 00:14:54,680 Have to work really, really hard to make sure I have that. 283 00:14:56,470 --> 00:14:58,860 OK, Rachel. I mean, your situation is a bit 284 00:14:58,870 --> 00:15:02,820 different. How did going through this more 285 00:15:02,830 --> 00:15:06,460 sudden menopause affect your work and how you're working it? 286 00:15:06,470 --> 00:15:09,420 How did you manage that at work? How was it for you? 287 00:15:10,620 --> 00:15:14,970 And also once I fortunate because I'd already been sick, 288 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:19,250 people were already quite gentle with me, so I didn't really have 289 00:15:19,260 --> 00:15:21,890 to explain that much. And I was going through 290 00:15:21,940 --> 00:15:25,270 menopause because I I also ended up having a transplant. 291 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:29,550 So there was quite a lot going on with me medically that I 292 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:33,150 could actually put it under the radar and people were quite 293 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,970 sympathetic. So that was quite good. 294 00:15:35,980 --> 00:15:39,150 But I I found it was more like how it affected me personally. 295 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,770 I found it probably because I was young. 296 00:15:41,900 --> 00:15:45,400 Younger and I hadn't had children and I had to deal with 297 00:15:45,460 --> 00:15:49,090 that aspect of, Oh well, you know, that ship sailed. 298 00:15:49,230 --> 00:15:53,810 I found the identity crisis I had incredibly challenging and 299 00:15:53,820 --> 00:15:56,550 that was it then impacting him my confidence. 300 00:15:56,940 --> 00:16:00,070 I felt like I wanted to be a wallflower and and that's not 301 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,410 particularly easy in an environment where you're already 302 00:16:04,420 --> 00:16:06,860 made to be a wallflower because you're in the minority. 303 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,610 So you've got to stand up and speak for yourself in in 304 00:16:09,620 --> 00:16:12,220 situations. I found that quite. 305 00:16:12,300 --> 00:16:14,960 Hard like I was already struggling with who I was. 306 00:16:14,970 --> 00:16:18,790 Who am I, you know who few weeks ago or a few months back I was 307 00:16:18,910 --> 00:16:21,030 this woman who could have children who was in a 308 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:22,300 relationship, all sorts of things. 309 00:16:22,310 --> 00:16:25,980 And then it is gone and coming to terms with that. 310 00:16:26,050 --> 00:16:30,120 And also I think society still has a certain view of women in 311 00:16:30,210 --> 00:16:33,420 menopause and a certain age and it's it's getting your own head 312 00:16:33,430 --> 00:16:36,700 around that and thinking now I'm still an attractive female. 313 00:16:36,710 --> 00:16:40,180 I'm not on the shelf or you know, it's it's all it's dealing 314 00:16:40,190 --> 00:16:44,450 with that negative attitude. As well with yourself because 315 00:16:44,460 --> 00:16:46,910 it, you know, my mother wouldn't talk about it. 316 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,250 I asked her before I went into menopause, when did she go into 317 00:16:50,260 --> 00:16:52,030 menopause and all. She told me she was in Ireland, 318 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:56,270 so I don't know ever go to Ireland and she just didn't want 319 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:58,810 her generation. She just did not want to talk 320 00:16:58,820 --> 00:17:02,550 about it at all. So I think something I would say 321 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,270 is that people educate yourselves because because I 322 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,290 went into early, I was totally ill prepared. 323 00:17:08,300 --> 00:17:12,410 I didn't know like even more than two symptoms, never mind 64 324 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,040 and I think. That was quite difficult. 325 00:17:15,050 --> 00:17:19,060 So for me, work wise, I was able to work from home to a certain 326 00:17:19,069 --> 00:17:23,119 extent and be flexible with it. I just found it quite difficult 327 00:17:23,130 --> 00:17:25,800 when I would look at somebody and I think I know who you are 328 00:17:25,810 --> 00:17:27,980 and I don't know why don't you know, don't know your name at 329 00:17:27,990 --> 00:17:29,800 all. And and they could tell I didn't 330 00:17:29,810 --> 00:17:33,010 know the name and you think, Oh yeah, I can't explain this. 331 00:17:33,020 --> 00:17:36,780 This is embarrassing physically. Again, being younger, people 332 00:17:36,790 --> 00:17:41,140 don't think that's what it could be why you might be struggling, 333 00:17:41,390 --> 00:17:42,800 you know. Now the age I am, they'd 334 00:17:42,810 --> 00:17:44,140 probably be thinking. That's why. 335 00:17:44,230 --> 00:17:47,620 But when it happened to me, yeah, you're younger people 336 00:17:47,630 --> 00:17:50,220 don't. Just don't think about it as 337 00:17:50,270 --> 00:17:51,810 something that could be happening to you. 338 00:17:53,310 --> 00:17:56,100 How have you been able to find support? 339 00:17:56,110 --> 00:17:59,080 Or have you been quite private? But I know that that people knew 340 00:17:59,090 --> 00:18:04,160 you kind of were sick anyway. I think I've just been fortunate 341 00:18:04,170 --> 00:18:09,110 that I've had line managers who are probably younger and more 342 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:11,960 more modern thinking, who probably have wives who tell 343 00:18:11,970 --> 00:18:14,590 them plenty that they wouldn't if they were 10 years older. 344 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:19,370 There is, I do feel there is a generational shift, whereas Once 345 00:18:19,380 --> 00:18:21,650 Upon a time, you know, maybe that was a good way to get a day 346 00:18:21,660 --> 00:18:23,990 off and say you have like period pains and they just look at you 347 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,960 and run. Now I'm dealing with people who 348 00:18:27,970 --> 00:18:31,710 are probably in their 30s and 40s who are line management and 349 00:18:31,780 --> 00:18:35,560 they're much more open. To the subject it's they don't 350 00:18:35,570 --> 00:18:37,700 necessarily want to know the details, but this they're 351 00:18:37,710 --> 00:18:42,020 sympathetic and they're just a different generation thought 352 00:18:42,030 --> 00:18:44,270 wise. So I've been quite fortunate in 353 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:48,140 that respect, I think. And have you gone about sort of 354 00:18:48,150 --> 00:18:52,440 helping yourself at work? Something good to do is journal 355 00:18:52,450 --> 00:18:55,610 your symptoms. Because then you can go to your 356 00:18:55,620 --> 00:18:59,970 line manager and explain this is how this is impacting me 357 00:18:59,980 --> 00:19:01,770 particularly. Again in a modern workforce we 358 00:19:01,780 --> 00:19:06,230 have like hot desking policies. So you don't have the same desk 359 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:08,270 every day. So you might find you're in the 360 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,630 hot corner of the office and you like it or not or you don't have 361 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:15,130 a fan on your desk. So if you can journal and and go 362 00:19:15,140 --> 00:19:18,350 and say this is what I need, give them solution. 363 00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:23,040 Most of the time they'll be quite happy to help you and. 364 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,950 That, I think is a big thing. Put the case to them rather than 365 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,070 go and they seem and you think you're having a moan. 366 00:19:31,860 --> 00:19:34,230 That's a great piece of advice, Joe. 367 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,040 Any other advice, Freddy? Give him some. 368 00:19:36,050 --> 00:19:38,600 But anything else that's kind of springing to mind that you wish 369 00:19:38,610 --> 00:19:40,290 you'd known or someone had told you? 370 00:19:41,570 --> 00:19:45,160 I think if you can find others who are also going through 371 00:19:45,170 --> 00:19:49,700 similar, we have a a different kind of couple of networks that 372 00:19:49,770 --> 00:19:52,720 Department for Transport. We do have a women's network and 373 00:19:52,730 --> 00:19:56,960 we also have like a menopause network and I have found that a 374 00:19:56,970 --> 00:20:02,340 really valuable place to meet others to have a quick chat 375 00:20:02,350 --> 00:20:05,320 about, Oh, I can't work this out. 376 00:20:05,330 --> 00:20:09,540 Can anyone tell me how to get an occupational health referral or, 377 00:20:09,610 --> 00:20:12,960 you know, anything that is made? You know medically and work 378 00:20:12,970 --> 00:20:16,720 related, but equally we we've just kind of shared how we found 379 00:20:16,790 --> 00:20:19,790 different offices, different ways of travelling to different 380 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,020 offices and what works, what doesn't and it's just a place 381 00:20:23,030 --> 00:20:25,260 where you can. I definitely feel I can be 382 00:20:25,270 --> 00:20:27,980 really really myself there and go I'm having a really rubbish 383 00:20:27,990 --> 00:20:32,880 day can anyone help me with this and and stuff and it's for me, 384 00:20:32,890 --> 00:20:36,200 it's about yeah just having that safe space to be able to say 385 00:20:36,210 --> 00:20:39,520 that And again I'm fortunate that I've had a really great 386 00:20:39,530 --> 00:20:41,740 line manager. I've got a really good team 387 00:20:41,750 --> 00:20:45,950 around me where I feel I can say to them or, you know, I'm having 388 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,150 a really terrible day, I'm having a bit of a shocker. 389 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,760 You're going to have to step up and lead that. 390 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,730 And that's the beauty of having a team, right, is that it's not 391 00:20:53,740 --> 00:20:57,670 all on you, is that you can kind of let others do that as well. 392 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,190 So that has been another kind of another thing I would recommend 393 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,190 is kind of making sure that you're not doing all the doing 394 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,280 because some days you're not going to be there to do it all. 395 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,390 Ali, is there anything, any advice he'd pass on, sort of 396 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,210 thinking about all the women that you've helped and and how 397 00:21:14,220 --> 00:21:19,340 they've coped with it at work? Yeah, I think The thing is to 398 00:21:19,350 --> 00:21:22,090 have an honest and open policy within the workplace and let 399 00:21:22,100 --> 00:21:25,310 people talk about menopause. A lot of companies appoint 400 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:26,740 somebody called menopause champions. 401 00:21:26,750 --> 00:21:29,230 So somebody that you can go to and talk about your menopause 402 00:21:29,270 --> 00:21:31,370 which may not be your line management, might be somebody 403 00:21:31,380 --> 00:21:33,800 else within the company and may not be of management level, but 404 00:21:33,810 --> 00:21:36,910 somebody that could that you can go to and support and talk about 405 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,810 the different symptoms and how you can help and support each 406 00:21:39,820 --> 00:21:41,650 other. I think flexible working is a 407 00:21:41,660 --> 00:21:43,510 big thing. It's you know, again, since 408 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,790 lockdown, lots of the younger generation are are going towards 409 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,160 this more flexible work because it fits in around their family 410 00:21:49,170 --> 00:21:51,000 lives. If it's good enough for them, 411 00:21:51,010 --> 00:21:53,680 it's good enough for us to. You know, if you've got poor 412 00:21:53,690 --> 00:21:55,910 sleep and you've been awake all night, you don't fall asleep 413 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,350 till 5:00 in the morning. You long goes off at six, you're 414 00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:01,470 not going to function at work. So why make women go into work 415 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:05,500 at 9:00 if they're not functioning or longer breaks? 416 00:22:05,670 --> 00:22:08,010 You know, going to the morning, work from home in the evening. 417 00:22:08,020 --> 00:22:10,260 Just be more flexible to fit in around. 418 00:22:10,690 --> 00:22:13,240 There's there's no point in staying at work till 5:00, 419 00:22:13,250 --> 00:22:15,660 staring at the screen. If you're not being productive. 420 00:22:15,670 --> 00:22:18,560 You'd be better to have a longer lunch break and then work later 421 00:22:18,570 --> 00:22:20,320 into the evening. You're just sitting around your 422 00:22:20,330 --> 00:22:24,880 symptoms. We're APM, the only chartered 423 00:22:24,890 --> 00:22:27,440 membership organisation for the project profession. 424 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,130 When you become an APM member, you'll receive the resources and 425 00:22:31,140 --> 00:22:33,910 support you need to make an impact, delivering better 426 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,550 projects with better outcomes. Plus, you'll access exclusive 427 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:41,170 training and benefits to support your ongoing career development. 428 00:22:41,340 --> 00:22:44,450 Find out how we can help you reach your potential by visiting 429 00:22:44,460 --> 00:22:48,950 apm.org.uk. Because when projects succeed, 430 00:22:49,020 --> 00:22:55,180 society benefits. Is there anything specifically 431 00:22:55,190 --> 00:22:57,730 about project work? I guess this is for Joe and 432 00:22:57,740 --> 00:23:02,040 Rachel that that it's trickier to manage when it comes to sort 433 00:23:02,050 --> 00:23:04,360 of also living with menopausal symptoms. 434 00:23:04,370 --> 00:23:06,120 So I'm thinking about tight deadlines. 435 00:23:06,130 --> 00:23:09,870 I'm thinking that I think there is very much a culture within 436 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:11,840 the project profession, certainly when I've interviewed 437 00:23:11,850 --> 00:23:15,280 people, that you have to be not necessarily extroverted, but 438 00:23:15,290 --> 00:23:17,300 you're the one in front of the client. 439 00:23:17,370 --> 00:23:19,130 You have to have a lot of self-confidence. 440 00:23:19,140 --> 00:23:21,780 There's a lot of presentation being the one to fix things. 441 00:23:22,270 --> 00:23:25,720 Is there anything tricky? About project work that has been 442 00:23:25,730 --> 00:23:29,130 a challenge or that you've found good ways of dealing with. 443 00:23:30,750 --> 00:23:35,120 I think the confidence issue is is a challenge and I think 444 00:23:35,130 --> 00:23:38,940 another thing with project work, certainly sort of where I am, I 445 00:23:38,950 --> 00:23:42,440 guess I do get to work flexibly, but I'm on the client side. 446 00:23:42,730 --> 00:23:45,820 I know if I was not on the client side I would probably be 447 00:23:45,830 --> 00:23:50,250 expected to be in the office. Much more on site particularly 448 00:23:50,260 --> 00:23:53,770 because it's a construction project there would be that but 449 00:23:53,780 --> 00:23:57,210 also projects are not often that long in nature. 450 00:23:57,260 --> 00:24:00,730 You may be moving on. So therefore you're then going 451 00:24:01,020 --> 00:24:04,030 back and if you know Ali mentioning symptoms can go on 452 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,270 for you know seven years on average. 453 00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:10,470 So you're then having to say all against somebody else. 454 00:24:10,580 --> 00:24:15,430 So it's it's that that you with projects and and Pete the churn 455 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,750 of people on projects, a lot of people don't stay on big 456 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,500 projects. More than a couple of years. 457 00:24:19,650 --> 00:24:24,210 So you were often having to have the same conversation 18 months 458 00:24:24,220 --> 00:24:26,620 later. And it said if you're expected 459 00:24:26,630 --> 00:24:31,360 to go on site, which a lot of people are, unless you speak up 460 00:24:31,370 --> 00:24:33,980 and then it's like, well, the spotlights on you, why are you 461 00:24:33,990 --> 00:24:36,280 not doing that? Why did you get off the hook? 462 00:24:36,410 --> 00:24:38,720 And that's not a comfortable conversation to have. 463 00:24:38,730 --> 00:24:42,120 Is it sometimes because you don't want to be the one 464 00:24:42,130 --> 00:24:44,700 standing out in the crowd of everyone else that's going on 465 00:24:44,710 --> 00:24:47,100 site? But actually, sometimes you're 466 00:24:47,110 --> 00:24:49,270 far too hot to put on all that like this. 467 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,540 Is it then just a matter of being brave and doing it and 468 00:24:53,550 --> 00:24:57,510 having that conversation? It's also individual. 469 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:02,850 I felt at times when I was going through it, a lack of confidence 470 00:25:02,860 --> 00:25:04,490 and a poor night's sleep. Everything else. 471 00:25:04,500 --> 00:25:07,650 I was probably the worst person to advocate for myself because I 472 00:25:07,660 --> 00:25:12,250 probably would have chewed the head off and, you know, just 473 00:25:12,260 --> 00:25:16,070 have pure tiredness. So I think that's why it's not 474 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,760 just menopausal or postmenopausal women. 475 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,350 We all have to advocate because you know, we're all going to go 476 00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:25,990 through it collectively because it's it's not, you're not always 477 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,650 in the best position. On that, with the greatest 478 00:25:28,660 --> 00:25:31,770 amount of confidence to speak up for yourself in that moment when 479 00:25:31,780 --> 00:25:34,880 you're challenged and you've got, you know, 12 men looking at 480 00:25:34,890 --> 00:25:37,590 you and the only person in the room or any woman in the room, 481 00:25:37,890 --> 00:25:40,260 it's a little bit like, oh, I don't really want to tell you 482 00:25:40,270 --> 00:25:43,610 all of that right now. What? 483 00:25:43,620 --> 00:25:46,610 Advice would you give to If you're in a project and a 484 00:25:46,620 --> 00:25:50,950 project manager or team leader wants to do the right thing and 485 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,430 is perhaps thinking about these issues for the first time, and 486 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,370 Rachel, I've asked them to think about it. 487 00:25:55,460 --> 00:25:59,510 What is helpful for them to do? What is it about creating a 488 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,110 particular kind of culture? Is it about the practical 489 00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:04,580 things? Is it about the language you use 490 00:26:04,590 --> 00:26:09,380 when talking about it? I think it's down to company 491 00:26:09,390 --> 00:26:14,340 culture and about talking about all sorts of medical health 492 00:26:14,350 --> 00:26:18,470 issues from mental well-being. So if we keep bringing all of 493 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,270 these up, I think it's about culture. 494 00:26:21,330 --> 00:26:23,360 There's practical things here on the mine. 495 00:26:24,110 --> 00:26:28,700 In every ladies toilets there's sanitary wear available, a 496 00:26:28,710 --> 00:26:31,960 variety to you. So if you have an accident you 497 00:26:31,970 --> 00:26:34,640 don't have to worry and go searching for another female to 498 00:26:34,650 --> 00:26:37,000 ask if she's got anything. It's there. 499 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,670 Simple little hacks like that from a practical perspective, 500 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:46,450 but ultimately it's culture so that you you feel you can speak 501 00:26:46,460 --> 00:26:49,580 up without being embarrassed about something. 502 00:26:49,590 --> 00:26:53,580 That actually is very normal. What about you, Joe? 503 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,150 I was just reflecting on this. I have something called a 504 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:01,030 Wellness action plan, which I share with people I work with 505 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,280 closely, which when I'm well, this is what I look like and 506 00:27:04,290 --> 00:27:07,850 this is how I will work. But if if there are things when 507 00:27:07,860 --> 00:27:10,190 I'm not well. And Rachel, you were just saying 508 00:27:10,260 --> 00:27:13,730 that when you've had no sleep and you're feeling super 509 00:27:13,740 --> 00:27:16,930 perimenopause or menopause or you're not your best advocate, 510 00:27:17,060 --> 00:27:18,670 sometimes you can't see it yourself. 511 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:23,660 When you're in the thick of it. I get really, really angry and 512 00:27:23,670 --> 00:27:29,700 get really, really hot angry and confused and it just takes them 513 00:27:29,710 --> 00:27:31,600 to kind of. There's a couple of phrases that 514 00:27:31,610 --> 00:27:37,040 I have that I use that to say, Joe, are you feeling OK today? 515 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,530 And I know when they say that, but I think, oh, hang on, 516 00:27:41,540 --> 00:27:44,120 they've noticed that something different about me. 517 00:27:44,670 --> 00:27:48,260 Maybe I'm not being myself, but I think that that that has taken 518 00:27:48,270 --> 00:27:51,360 a lot for me to put myself out there and say here's what I look 519 00:27:51,370 --> 00:27:54,180 like when I'm well, here's what I look like when things may not 520 00:27:54,190 --> 00:27:57,470 be going as well. But want you to help me either 521 00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,970 recognise that I'm not doing as well because sometimes you just 522 00:27:59,980 --> 00:28:04,590 can't see it, but also help me get better. 523 00:28:04,660 --> 00:28:06,670 And that's something that's really personal to me. 524 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,810 But I do think that everyone should kind of consider what 525 00:28:09,820 --> 00:28:14,370 they look like when they're, you know, at their 90% laziness. 526 00:28:14,380 --> 00:28:16,840 And then when they're kind of sliding down and thinking, oh, 527 00:28:16,850 --> 00:28:20,490 I'm really tired, I've got a newborn baby or I've not been, 528 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,360 you know, sleeping very well, etcetera. 529 00:28:22,370 --> 00:28:25,930 I think there's lots of things that we can all learn from this 530 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,680 because as we've all said I think previously, we're here 531 00:28:29,690 --> 00:28:32,400 until we're at least 60-7 at the moment working. 532 00:28:32,450 --> 00:28:36,530 We might as well kind of make our time at work reasonably 533 00:28:36,540 --> 00:28:39,240 enjoyable or livable while we're here. 534 00:28:39,310 --> 00:28:43,480 I think that's really important. And is there any advice you 535 00:28:43,490 --> 00:28:46,310 would give to people who are in the senior positions at work 536 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,870 about making sure that they do things the right way and that 537 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:50,480 they support women in the right way? 538 00:28:51,300 --> 00:28:52,940 Yeah, I just. Think it's being flexible and 539 00:28:52,950 --> 00:28:56,360 being understanding really. And we all know the NHS is very 540 00:28:56,370 --> 00:28:58,600 overstretched at the moment and it's actually quite hard to get 541 00:28:58,610 --> 00:29:01,640 a GP appointment. So a lot of GP surgeries only 542 00:29:01,650 --> 00:29:04,160 offer appointments on the day. You can't have to camp book 543 00:29:04,170 --> 00:29:06,960 appointments anymore. And so that might be a day that 544 00:29:06,970 --> 00:29:08,840 you're at work. So you can't necessarily book a 545 00:29:08,850 --> 00:29:10,740 day's holiday for your appointment. 546 00:29:10,750 --> 00:29:13,640 So if you do need to go and see a menopause specialist, then 547 00:29:13,650 --> 00:29:15,580 make sure it's and it's in work time. 548 00:29:15,590 --> 00:29:17,880 It might not be you doing it on purpose, it might be that you 549 00:29:17,990 --> 00:29:19,780 that is the only appointment that you can get. 550 00:29:19,890 --> 00:29:23,010 A lot of GP surgeries do have. And somebody that specialises 551 00:29:23,020 --> 00:29:26,250 within their surgery as well, you know a nurse practitioner or 552 00:29:26,260 --> 00:29:28,970 GP who has a special interest in manifest and they may be part 553 00:29:28,980 --> 00:29:31,250 time, they may only work certain days. 554 00:29:31,260 --> 00:29:33,710 So it might be that you can only get an appointment on a 555 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,750 particular day and it might be a day that you're at work. 556 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,150 So it's just allowing women to be flexible and access the right 557 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,410 care and treatment so that they can get the the correct help and 558 00:29:43,420 --> 00:29:45,980 advice and and to help them to function long term. 559 00:29:47,250 --> 00:29:50,120 Just thinking about the future and project work. 560 00:29:50,390 --> 00:29:54,170 I guess it's for you again for Joe and Rachel about it. 561 00:29:54,180 --> 00:29:56,980 Could things still be done in a better way when it comes to 562 00:29:56,990 --> 00:30:01,250 project work that means that menopausal women can thrive? 563 00:30:02,630 --> 00:30:04,860 There's definitely room for improvement. 564 00:30:04,870 --> 00:30:08,360 I mean, if you about how much effort is made to support 565 00:30:08,370 --> 00:30:12,160 pregnant women, they're going through a tough time, but 566 00:30:12,170 --> 00:30:13,990 there's a room that they can go and rest in. 567 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,180 There's much more flexibility allowed. 568 00:30:16,250 --> 00:30:18,300 All right. You could argue it's a short 569 00:30:18,310 --> 00:30:21,540 period, but even when they come back, as mentioned, sleepless 570 00:30:21,550 --> 00:30:23,660 nights. So I think there's a lot more 571 00:30:23,730 --> 00:30:25,270 room. But I think one of the biggest 572 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,860 things is to make sure that you retain women. 573 00:30:27,970 --> 00:30:31,760 At the moment they're not retain women and those women who can 574 00:30:31,770 --> 00:30:36,440 then help the next generation. And advocate they're losing 575 00:30:36,450 --> 00:30:38,690 them. Yeah, without those people then 576 00:30:38,700 --> 00:30:41,510 you would each generation is just going to come up and only 577 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,940 chip away a little bit. Do you feel sensitive kind of 578 00:30:45,950 --> 00:30:49,060 responsibility to be role models to the women beneath you? 579 00:30:49,070 --> 00:30:51,760 Because you mean Rachel, you talked about your mum and saying 580 00:30:51,770 --> 00:30:56,790 she never talks about it and perhaps this generational is the 581 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,040 one that is can talk about it at work. 582 00:30:59,050 --> 00:31:01,520 Do you ever feel that sense of, you know, you're kind of 583 00:31:01,790 --> 00:31:05,760 changing things need to be seen to be doing this for the women 584 00:31:05,770 --> 00:31:08,310 coming up, you know, underneath you? 585 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:14,750 Definitely. If if I don't speak up, then you 586 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,050 know the generation, but behind won't. 587 00:31:17,830 --> 00:31:21,350 You know, we've got, we've just got to have that conversation 588 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,340 because as we've discussed, I'm going to be here till I'm 67. 589 00:31:24,350 --> 00:31:27,450 That's a long time. You got to try and make it 590 00:31:27,460 --> 00:31:31,990 easier for yourself and there are women in generations ahead 591 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:33,930 who made other things for us easier. 592 00:31:33,940 --> 00:31:37,900 So if I can do my little bit, I will do, you know, 100 percent, 593 00:31:37,990 --> 00:31:40,460 100%. It's it's so important, isn't 594 00:31:40,470 --> 00:31:43,630 it, to lift as you climb, to make sure that as you're 595 00:31:43,690 --> 00:31:47,760 advancing in your career or in in your menopause that everyone 596 00:31:47,770 --> 00:31:51,340 else understands it and that they have space to kind of 597 00:31:51,350 --> 00:31:53,800 follow behind you. I think it's just really, really 598 00:31:53,810 --> 00:31:57,550 important. Any last things you want to pass 599 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,580 on to listeners or anything? Any advice you'd give that we 600 00:32:01,590 --> 00:32:05,670 haven't had a chance to kind of mention, I think Rachel said 601 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,130 earlier about journaling everything. 602 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,030 I think even if you're not thinking you're perimenopausal 603 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,550 or even if you're a woman who is having regular periods, journal 604 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,470 or your symptoms and get to know your own cycle, how you work, 605 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,970 what your peaks and troughs are. Because I think that that will 606 00:32:22,980 --> 00:32:25,690 help no end. Not just for when you hit the 607 00:32:25,700 --> 00:32:28,570 perimenopause and the menopause, but it actually help you right 608 00:32:28,580 --> 00:32:32,750 now to know that maybe having a big presentation the day before 609 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,550 your period is due, that may not work for you. 610 00:32:35,630 --> 00:32:39,130 But if you can flex around that because actually you you aren't 611 00:32:39,140 --> 00:32:42,870 feeling your best physically and probably mentally as well. 612 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:47,130 So why not make it easier for ourselves in knowing who what we 613 00:32:47,140 --> 00:32:50,590 are, who what our bodies are doing to us and our minds, so 614 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,650 that we can then present ourselves in a better light at 615 00:32:53,660 --> 00:32:57,810 work when we need to? Rachel, anything you'd like to 616 00:32:57,820 --> 00:33:00,750 add? I just say, you know, to women 617 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,600 of all ages, learn about the menopause, understand what 618 00:33:04,690 --> 00:33:08,160 what's coming at the moment. Most of us just hear about hot 619 00:33:08,170 --> 00:33:12,040 flushes, really. And then there's a whole raft of 620 00:33:12,050 --> 00:33:14,170 other symptoms. Also, I understand that people 621 00:33:14,180 --> 00:33:17,040 from different ethnic backgrounds experience different 622 00:33:17,050 --> 00:33:21,260 symptoms. So I understand hot flushes and 623 00:33:21,270 --> 00:33:25,580 impact Caucasian women more. So you know, learn about it so 624 00:33:25,590 --> 00:33:29,360 that when it comes, you've got an idea that it's. 625 00:33:29,470 --> 00:33:33,220 What's happening to you? Ali, anything you'd like to add 626 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:35,650 everything? Is don't suffer in silence 627 00:33:35,660 --> 00:33:37,290 really. You know everybody's menopause 628 00:33:37,300 --> 00:33:39,760 is quite different and if all your friends appear to self with 629 00:33:39,770 --> 00:33:42,240 menopause and you're struggling and don't feel ashamed, it 630 00:33:42,250 --> 00:33:43,910 doesn't mean that you're a failure. 631 00:33:43,980 --> 00:33:46,630 It just means that you you have different symptoms to your 632 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:48,570 friends. And there is always treatment 633 00:33:48,580 --> 00:33:52,770 options are available to all women whether it be HMRC or 634 00:33:52,780 --> 00:33:55,010 other medication or diet and lifestyle as well. 635 00:33:55,020 --> 00:33:58,720 This is a chance to to look at the triggers that being observed 636 00:33:58,730 --> 00:34:02,250 and often alcohol, caffeine, things like that can bring on 637 00:34:02,260 --> 00:34:04,450 hot flushes. So just be aware of your. 638 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,620 Person has been aware of the triggers and get the right 639 00:34:07,670 --> 00:34:12,130 medical help and advice. Are there any resources you'd 640 00:34:12,139 --> 00:34:14,550 recommend? Any books or podcasts or 641 00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:18,150 anything that you would point women to to want to educate 642 00:34:18,159 --> 00:34:20,520 themselves about this or or find some help? 643 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,949 I really recommend Doctor Louise Newsome's website, which is 644 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:30,449 called Balance. I find it's a really big kind of 645 00:34:30,510 --> 00:34:34,170 treasure trove of information. And if I think people want to 646 00:34:34,179 --> 00:34:37,730 find out a bit more about menopause and perimenopause, she 647 00:34:37,739 --> 00:34:41,790 did a podcast with James Smith who's like a personal trainer, 648 00:34:41,860 --> 00:34:45,530 about a year or so ago. I did kind of get my line 649 00:34:45,540 --> 00:34:48,449 manager to listen to that because James Smith is a very 650 00:34:48,460 --> 00:34:53,820 alpha male, but he completely kind of goal perimenopause and 651 00:34:53,830 --> 00:34:56,199 menopause. And for me, that was quite 652 00:34:56,270 --> 00:35:00,480 revolutionary and groundbreaking because he's so alpha male and 653 00:35:00,490 --> 00:35:03,910 and young and actually was thinking about perimenopause and 654 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,920 menopause and your exercise and diet and stress and how that 655 00:35:06,930 --> 00:35:11,730 impacts everything. And I'm Ali, obviously your next 656 00:35:11,740 --> 00:35:14,900 phone in this field. How can people find out about 657 00:35:14,910 --> 00:35:17,270 you and the resources available to them? 658 00:35:17,980 --> 00:35:19,650 So like in this course, simply menopausal. 659 00:35:19,660 --> 00:35:22,830 So I have my own website simplymenopausal.co.uk. 660 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,890 There's lots of information on there and you can also follow me 661 00:35:25,900 --> 00:35:28,600 on social media. I've got Facebook group called 662 00:35:28,610 --> 00:35:31,790 the Simple Menopausal Community which is a safe space that just 663 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,630 has women in there. And obviously I don't give 664 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,870 medical advice on social media, but it's it's nice to help 665 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:38,910 support each other and so you don't feel alone. 666 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,430 And if you are in a workplace where you're not supportive, at 667 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,300 least you can get support from other women in a similar 668 00:35:44,310 --> 00:35:47,050 situations. And I also do lots of stuff on 669 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,480 Instagram and Facebook. Generally as well. 670 00:35:49,710 --> 00:35:52,520 And I've also got something called the Mighty Networks which 671 00:35:52,530 --> 00:35:57,140 is more of a corporate type platform which is myself and 672 00:35:57,150 --> 00:36:00,540 Cathie Hasty who is the HR consultant that together we give 673 00:36:00,550 --> 00:36:03,150 lots of corporate help and advice to help and support women 674 00:36:03,330 --> 00:36:06,120 in the workplace is called It's Mighty Networks and it's called 675 00:36:06,130 --> 00:36:08,280 Menopause working with simply menopause. 676 00:36:08,290 --> 00:36:10,120 Also lots of device on there as well. 677 00:36:10,670 --> 00:36:11,360 OK. Brilliant. 678 00:36:11,370 --> 00:36:15,340 Thank you and and and finally, Rachel, any books or podcasts or 679 00:36:15,350 --> 00:36:17,490 resources that you've been helpful for you? 680 00:36:18,220 --> 00:36:21,130 Davina McCall, She has done a lot with it. 681 00:36:21,140 --> 00:36:23,850 I can't remember the name of the doctor that has done a lot of 682 00:36:23,860 --> 00:36:26,390 her Instagram posts recently and. 683 00:36:26,470 --> 00:36:29,730 Yeah. It's just it's just very human. 684 00:36:29,820 --> 00:36:33,460 Discussing how difficult things are and what happens, I found 685 00:36:33,470 --> 00:36:37,880 that very relatable. I think we've covered a lot of 686 00:36:37,890 --> 00:36:41,220 ground here. And so nice to hear that you're 687 00:36:41,230 --> 00:36:44,700 experiencing what all that person's been sounds pretty 688 00:36:44,710 --> 00:36:48,520 tricky and challenging, but the fact that you feel supported and 689 00:36:48,530 --> 00:36:53,040 have been treated and in the right way and being brave enough 690 00:36:53,050 --> 00:36:57,040 really to talk about this openly is, is really a great thing to 691 00:36:57,050 --> 00:36:59,830 hear. So I want to thank you again for 692 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:04,690 your time and uh, wish you best of luck with everything and 693 00:37:04,700 --> 00:37:07,280 then, yeah, thank you again. Thank you. 694 00:37:08,540 --> 00:37:10,210 My pleasure. Thank you. 695 00:37:10,630 --> 00:37:19,460 Thank you for inviting me. Thanks again to Rachel, Joe, and 696 00:37:19,470 --> 00:37:21,960 Annie for joining us, and to you for listening to the APM 697 00:37:21,970 --> 00:37:24,300 podcast. Don't forget to look out for 698 00:37:24,310 --> 00:37:26,960 more episodes or to rate and review us wherever you get your 699 00:37:26,970 --> 00:37:29,450 podcasts. We'd welcome you to get in touch 700 00:37:29,460 --> 00:37:32,760 with your comments, feedback and suggestions by emailing us at 701 00:37:32,810 --> 00:37:39,090 apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. This podcast has been brought to 702 00:37:39,100 --> 00:37:42,270 you by APM, The Chartered Body for the project profession. 703 00:37:42,780 --> 00:37:46,710 For more information on APM, visit apm.org.uk.