1 00:00:08,780 --> 00:00:12,260 Welcome to the APM Podcast. AM is the chartered body for the 2 00:00:12,270 --> 00:00:15,200 project profession. My name is Emma De Vita and I'm 3 00:00:15,210 --> 00:00:18,800 the editor of Project APM's Quarterly journal and your Host 4 00:00:19,130 --> 00:00:22,140 and this podcast. I'm speaking with Beth W, CEO of 5 00:00:22,150 --> 00:00:25,040 East West Rail and Transport Project that will open up a 6 00:00:25,050 --> 00:00:27,680 corridor from Oxford through Milton Keynes and Bedford to 7 00:00:27,690 --> 00:00:31,220 Cambridge and connect the UK's two leading life sciences and 8 00:00:31,230 --> 00:00:39,640 tech hotspots. Welcome back, Thanks for joining 9 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:42,340 us today on the PM podcast. Perhaps a good place to start 10 00:00:42,350 --> 00:00:44,730 would be for you to give us a bit of background about the 11 00:00:44,740 --> 00:00:48,000 history of the project, what the overall plan is, and where 12 00:00:48,010 --> 00:00:53,260 things are right now in July. Of course so since the 90s and 13 00:00:53,270 --> 00:00:56,540 local authorities across the region from Oxford to Cambridge 14 00:00:56,550 --> 00:01:00,140 and even even wider than that, have been really advocating for 15 00:01:00,150 --> 00:01:03,050 the rights of the restoration of an East West Link between Oxford 16 00:01:03,060 --> 00:01:06,580 and Cambridge in particular, but going West of Oxford and and 17 00:01:06,590 --> 00:01:12,230 east of Cambridge. And so in the early 20 teens a 18 00:01:12,270 --> 00:01:15,940 business case was made to start the construction of of East West 19 00:01:15,950 --> 00:01:18,960 Rail. So the first phase from Oxford 20 00:01:18,970 --> 00:01:23,720 to Vista is up and operating. The The next phase, from from 21 00:01:23,730 --> 00:01:27,180 Vista to Bletchley, is under construction now, which is run 22 00:01:27,190 --> 00:01:30,670 by a Network Rail alliance. Is actually not part of East 23 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,340 West Railway Company, but it's a Network Rail alliance with Lang 24 00:01:34,350 --> 00:01:37,260 O'Rourke and Atkins and local vessels. 25 00:01:37,570 --> 00:01:41,040 And then East Austral was set, Eastrail Company was set up in 26 00:01:41,050 --> 00:01:46,420 2018 really to be something different from from Network Rail 27 00:01:46,430 --> 00:01:51,170 to be blunt about it and to really look at what could be 28 00:01:51,180 --> 00:01:53,380 done differently in the rail sector very much in in a 29 00:01:53,390 --> 00:01:54,820 vertical integration kind of way. 30 00:01:54,830 --> 00:02:00,600 So can reconnecting train and track and to look at really how 31 00:02:00,610 --> 00:02:04,640 do you more cost effectively and more quickly deliver new railway 32 00:02:04,650 --> 00:02:07,630 infrastructure? So so the railway line already 33 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,530 had the business case made from Oxford to Bletchley. 34 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,380 There is an existing railway line called the Marston Vale 35 00:02:13,390 --> 00:02:16,690 line between Bletchley and Bedford that was stopped from 36 00:02:16,700 --> 00:02:19,550 closing back in the post beeching days and it's been run 37 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,680 as a community railway and but it it only run runs one train an 38 00:02:22,690 --> 00:02:25,760 hour each way. Normally that railway stopped 39 00:02:25,770 --> 00:02:28,970 passenger services at the moment because the rolling stock 40 00:02:28,980 --> 00:02:30,470 provider went into administration. 41 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:34,110 So unfortunately at the moment the, the customers have to take 42 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,590 a real replacement bus. And so part of our scheme is to 43 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,070 upgrade that line so that it could take more than one train 44 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,150 per hour each way. And then we're building a new 45 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,100 line between Bedford and Cambridge. 46 00:02:45,170 --> 00:02:47,640 So we've done a couple of statutory, non statutory 47 00:02:47,650 --> 00:02:52,310 consultations on the on the line of route to see what the 48 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:54,760 communities want. You know we looked at a bunch of 49 00:02:54,770 --> 00:02:56,830 different alignments to see what was going to be the best 50 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,900 alignment and how we might upgrade the Marston Vale line 51 00:03:00,170 --> 00:03:04,640 And there was a bit of a hiccup back in 2021 and we we were 52 00:03:04,650 --> 00:03:07,810 really asked to really look at the strategic case again off the 53 00:03:07,820 --> 00:03:11,740 back of that we completed the work and looked at alternatives 54 00:03:11,750 --> 00:03:15,370 to drive the cost down. And before we were able to get 55 00:03:15,380 --> 00:03:18,550 the conclusion of that, we had a couple of changes of government 56 00:03:18,620 --> 00:03:22,490 and really happily though, we've had a huge amount of support 57 00:03:22,500 --> 00:03:25,700 from the current government. And we were mentioned by the 58 00:03:25,710 --> 00:03:28,870 Chancellor in last year's Autumn Statement and this year's budget 59 00:03:28,940 --> 00:03:33,400 and in May we announced our preferred route announcement so 60 00:03:33,410 --> 00:03:35,560 that we can move towards submitting our planning 61 00:03:35,570 --> 00:03:38,900 application. So what comes next is that we 62 00:03:38,910 --> 00:03:41,900 are designing a way we've been holding public drop in events 63 00:03:41,910 --> 00:03:46,020 and will continue to have public engagement throughout the autumn 64 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,540 and into the New year. But we are targeting starting 65 00:03:49,550 --> 00:03:52,380 our statutory consultation process in the first half of 66 00:03:52,390 --> 00:03:55,240 next year so that we're able to submit our development consent 67 00:03:55,250 --> 00:03:57,780 order, which is our planning application after the general 68 00:03:57,790 --> 00:04:02,300 election and you joined in April 2022. 69 00:04:02,310 --> 00:04:05,680 So what point was everything at then? 70 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:08,700 It was deeply uncertain when I joined, I have to say. 71 00:04:08,710 --> 00:04:11,430 So we weren't sure if we were going to have a project and my 72 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,460 first hundred days sort of coincided with the Prime 73 00:04:14,470 --> 00:04:17,380 Minister resigning. So, you know, what I was doing 74 00:04:17,390 --> 00:04:20,100 is trying to drive us towards making a decision and getting, 75 00:04:20,110 --> 00:04:23,400 you know, trying to to really look at the organisation and and 76 00:04:23,410 --> 00:04:25,300 make sure we were heading in the right direction. 77 00:04:25,370 --> 00:04:29,770 And all that was going along and we were making a recommendation 78 00:04:29,780 --> 00:04:32,160 and it was all, you know, going, you know, progressing. 79 00:04:32,170 --> 00:04:34,760 And then we had this big political change. 80 00:04:34,770 --> 00:04:37,940 So we had to take a step back, figure out how do we? 81 00:04:38,010 --> 00:04:41,350 How do we engage with potential incoming governments and 82 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:43,670 convince them that that it's the right scheme and that we should 83 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,470 continue to go ahead? So we did a lot of work from 84 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:50,450 July until. Really until November, December 85 00:04:50,500 --> 00:04:54,150 talking to the to the candidates teams, the new and then the new, 86 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,690 the new governments about scheme and and that it was, it was 87 00:04:57,700 --> 00:05:00,850 really a good idea to do it. Especially looking at the 88 00:05:00,860 --> 00:05:03,910 potential for growth across the region which is a, you know it 89 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:08,280 has huge amounts of of high potential based on very 21st 90 00:05:08,290 --> 00:05:11,680 century businesses and areas of development. 91 00:05:11,690 --> 00:05:14,740 So life sciences in in Cambridge for example, our business case 92 00:05:14,750 --> 00:05:16,990 is really driven from the opportunities that the railway 93 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,180 provides rather than just some railway infrastructure. 94 00:05:20,850 --> 00:05:23,280 How do you measure the success of the project? 95 00:05:23,290 --> 00:05:26,620 What are the deliverables you're looking to achieve? 96 00:05:26,630 --> 00:05:29,800 So it's bigger than just delivering a railway, It's 97 00:05:29,810 --> 00:05:33,050 actually thinking about how it will grow the economy, linking 98 00:05:33,060 --> 00:05:35,840 those two kind of tech hotspots together. 99 00:05:35,910 --> 00:05:38,200 Exactly. And and you know Milton Keynes 100 00:05:38,210 --> 00:05:42,240 and Bedford and and really helping create water benefits 101 00:05:42,250 --> 00:05:45,050 for the communities in between as well and you know more people 102 00:05:45,060 --> 00:05:47,030 on trains mean fewer people on roads. 103 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,210 So even if you're not necessarily somebody who's going 104 00:05:49,220 --> 00:05:52,620 to take take a train journey, what you should be getting the 105 00:05:52,630 --> 00:05:55,340 benefit of is fewer people driving through your village on 106 00:05:55,350 --> 00:05:58,290 the way to get somewhere else. But our our business case is 107 00:05:58,300 --> 00:06:00,750 really driven off of the opportunity to. 108 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,550 To to develop growth and there's a potential National 109 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:06,990 Infrastructure Commission forecasted there were potential 110 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:09,810 additional 80,000 jobs in Cambridge alone. 111 00:06:09,870 --> 00:06:12,850 So the question is where do you get, you know, where do you get 112 00:06:12,860 --> 00:06:15,490 those people from Cambridge is really expensive. 113 00:06:15,500 --> 00:06:17,350 Cost of living there is really, really high. 114 00:06:17,500 --> 00:06:20,160 They don't have that opportunity for lots of development. 115 00:06:20,170 --> 00:06:23,390 There's a green belt and so you have to look at, well, where are 116 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:25,940 people going to be able to live that is affordable in the 117 00:06:25,950 --> 00:06:28,470 region? There's already a railway line 118 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:32,000 that runs NS like everywhere in the country and people who live 119 00:06:32,010 --> 00:06:34,500 South of Cambridge, the housing is really expensive there. 120 00:06:34,510 --> 00:06:36,460 So they tend to gravitate towards London jobs. 121 00:06:36,530 --> 00:06:40,720 People already do come down from north of Cambridge but where 122 00:06:40,730 --> 00:06:44,160 property prices are actually a lot lower is to the to the east 123 00:06:44,170 --> 00:06:47,580 and to the West. And so the the opportunity is to 124 00:06:47,650 --> 00:06:50,030 to work with the local authorities which is you know 125 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,760 this is their responsibility to to look at local plans and local 126 00:06:52,770 --> 00:06:55,450 planning to build railway stations and places where 127 00:06:55,460 --> 00:07:00,590 there's potential for new places and and that's where you know 128 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:02,820 huge amount of the benefits are going to come from which will be 129 00:07:02,830 --> 00:07:05,500 about creating the links and for. 130 00:07:05,650 --> 00:07:08,910 The opportunities for people and businesses to establish 131 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,980 themselves near Cambridge, to get into those jobs in Cambridge 132 00:07:11,990 --> 00:07:14,490 and then also to get you know businesses more widely 133 00:07:14,500 --> 00:07:16,970 throughout the region. Because what we've seen in 134 00:07:16,980 --> 00:07:20,770 places is that a lot of times you want businesses want to have 135 00:07:20,780 --> 00:07:23,820 their sort of their science hub. For example, you know people 136 00:07:23,830 --> 00:07:26,480 want to be at the the Cambridge Biomedical campus, but if 137 00:07:26,490 --> 00:07:28,580 they're going to do some manufacturing they might want to 138 00:07:28,590 --> 00:07:31,750 take that slightly outside of Cambridge but near be nearby. 139 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,880 So by having East West Rail allows for companies to be able 140 00:07:34,890 --> 00:07:38,010 to go to Bedford, for example, and and establish something 141 00:07:38,020 --> 00:07:39,910 there because they're able to get there really quickly by 142 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,210 public transport. Yeah, OK, that makes sense. 143 00:07:43,220 --> 00:07:46,230 And what drew you to the role? I mean the reason I've been 144 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,110 infrastructure in the 1st place is because I care about what 145 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:53,420 infrastructure does for people. Infrastructure is there to 146 00:07:53,430 --> 00:07:56,570 enable people to live their lives and the better we provide 147 00:07:56,630 --> 00:07:59,360 our infrastructure, the the better, you know, that should be 148 00:07:59,370 --> 00:08:00,900 helping people's lives get better. 149 00:08:00,970 --> 00:08:04,620 And the railway, I think by being its size as well, you 150 00:08:04,630 --> 00:08:08,560 know, it's not a huge project. It's allows us to to do some 151 00:08:08,570 --> 00:08:09,940 stuff. I think that's really different 152 00:08:09,950 --> 00:08:13,420 from other big infrastructure projects. 153 00:08:13,650 --> 00:08:16,740 What do you mean? So one of the things is the 154 00:08:16,750 --> 00:08:19,090 biggest thing for me is how do we connect with our communities 155 00:08:19,210 --> 00:08:21,990 and how do we? Actually collaborate with our 156 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:25,030 communities and Co create where it's appropriate, what the right 157 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:29,030 outcomes are going to be because every place is you know every 158 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:30,920 place in England is different, every place in the UK is 159 00:08:30,930 --> 00:08:35,770 different and every every place across this region is different. 160 00:08:35,820 --> 00:08:38,909 And so not every solution that we might come up with is going 161 00:08:38,919 --> 00:08:42,260 to be right for each place. So the interest, the interesting 162 00:08:42,270 --> 00:08:46,630 thing for me is how do we talk to our communities and say OK at 163 00:08:46,700 --> 00:08:50,330 Camborne station, how do we get really good door to door connect 164 00:08:50,340 --> 00:08:53,600 connectivity is that we work with the local authority to 165 00:08:53,610 --> 00:08:56,670 develop cycle paths and they have really good pre bookable 166 00:08:56,680 --> 00:08:59,510 cycle storage is that we have some. 167 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:01,340 Really. Interesting local bus networks 168 00:09:01,350 --> 00:09:03,900 that that just sort of you know could come up with something 169 00:09:03,910 --> 00:09:06,340 that's really helpful to get people from from their houses to 170 00:09:06,350 --> 00:09:08,060 to the station. But then we need to design the 171 00:09:08,070 --> 00:09:11,820 station really well to have that pre bookable cycle storage or 172 00:09:11,830 --> 00:09:15,150 that but good bus connectivity and that's going to be different 173 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:19,350 from place to place. And so it it's that engagement 174 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:21,640 and then talking to people and really understanding what their, 175 00:09:21,650 --> 00:09:26,020 what they want will create a better outcome because it's been 176 00:09:26,030 --> 00:09:27,650 designed for the people who are going to use it. 177 00:09:28,890 --> 00:09:31,540 I've obviously done a bit of reading around and I was come 178 00:09:31,550 --> 00:09:35,110 across the idea that you're quite up for innovating project 179 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,200 delivery or trying different things. 180 00:09:37,210 --> 00:09:42,870 Or tell me a bit about that. So I I've also done lots of 181 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,490 reading and research and and and I feel like we all know that the 182 00:09:46,500 --> 00:09:49,280 construction industry and the rail industry hasn't really 183 00:09:49,290 --> 00:09:51,960 evolved much and doesn't have brilliant productivity. 184 00:09:52,750 --> 00:09:57,820 And when I observe why that is, I think a lot of times we try 185 00:09:57,830 --> 00:10:00,960 stuff and then it doesn't work 100% and then we go back to the 186 00:10:00,970 --> 00:10:02,790 way we've always done things because you know I told you was 187 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,870 it wasn't going to work properly but rather than going oh I got 188 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:09,900 50%, that's amazing, if you try again we'll get to 75%. 189 00:10:09,910 --> 00:10:12,080 If you try a third time then we'll get to 100%. 190 00:10:12,090 --> 00:10:14,020 And we never seem to do that as an industry. 191 00:10:14,070 --> 00:10:16,920 And again I think that with East West Rail we have some really 192 00:10:16,930 --> 00:10:20,690 great opportunities to try some stuff out on the railway, 193 00:10:20,790 --> 00:10:22,840 especially because we're not you know the the Bedford to 194 00:10:22,850 --> 00:10:25,470 Cambridge bit, we're we're not massively going to impact the 195 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:27,790 rest of the network. So we might be able to try some 196 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:30,260 things out which might be a little bit riskier, not from a 197 00:10:30,270 --> 00:10:32,000 safety perspective, but just from a. 198 00:10:32,300 --> 00:10:34,730 The delivery perspective, that might be a little bit riskier 199 00:10:34,740 --> 00:10:38,630 than what we might normally do, but it shouldn't be something 200 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:40,850 that's gonna have a major risk impact on the network. 201 00:10:40,860 --> 00:10:44,890 So it's an opportunity to trial some stuff out in a relatively 202 00:10:44,900 --> 00:10:48,230 controlled environment to see if we can actually do things more 203 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:50,410 cost effectively. So you're up for a bit of 204 00:10:50,420 --> 00:10:53,350 experimentation. Can you be a bit more specific 205 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,000 in other ideas that you're really excited about trying out? 206 00:10:56,730 --> 00:10:59,580 One of the big questions I've got for the team is how do we, 207 00:10:59,590 --> 00:11:02,780 how do we just move less earth because the big costs on a lot 208 00:11:02,790 --> 00:11:06,900 of these railway jobs are or highways jobs, It's moving dirt 209 00:11:07,070 --> 00:11:09,420 and that's a huge part of everybody's cost. 210 00:11:09,470 --> 00:11:11,990 But from a sustainability point of view, from a cost point of 211 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,630 view, for a time point of view, actually the less we intervene 212 00:11:15,670 --> 00:11:17,580 in what we're trying to do to get to the outcomes that we 213 00:11:17,590 --> 00:11:20,780 want, we will be more sustainable because we're doing 214 00:11:20,790 --> 00:11:21,880 less. That's a good thing. 215 00:11:21,890 --> 00:11:24,710 We'll be cheaper because we're we're doing less and that's a 216 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,520 good thing and we'll be quicker because the less we do, the more 217 00:11:27,530 --> 00:11:29,200 we can get to the to the benefits. 218 00:11:29,260 --> 00:11:33,100 So, you know, the challenge that I give to the designers is how 219 00:11:33,110 --> 00:11:35,350 do we, how do we actually, you know, move, move. 220 00:11:35,710 --> 00:11:39,200 How do we build less staff? We tend as an industry to go, 221 00:11:39,270 --> 00:11:41,810 what's the biggest thing we can build or what's the best thing 222 00:11:41,820 --> 00:11:44,190 we can do? And there's a bit of a, for me, 223 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:46,520 there's a bit of a mindset to say we've got a climate 224 00:11:46,530 --> 00:11:50,090 emergency, how do we get those benefits with the least amount 225 00:11:50,100 --> 00:11:52,100 of impact? Because that's that's a winner 226 00:11:52,110 --> 00:11:54,950 all round. What about in terms of the way 227 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,520 the project is managed? Is there anything you're 228 00:11:57,530 --> 00:12:00,860 experimenting with in terms of the kind of methodology, the 229 00:12:00,870 --> 00:12:03,480 approach you take, the tech you're using? 230 00:12:04,260 --> 00:12:07,950 So organizationally we're trying to do we're we're going full on 231 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,710 matrix which I know is not remotely radical, but we're 232 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,690 trying to to really have multidisciplinary teams working 233 00:12:14,700 --> 00:12:17,810 together to come up with what their scope looks like together 234 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,590 and drive forward the outcomes. It's still a work in progress 235 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,520 because people want to you know it's not how people are normally 236 00:12:24,530 --> 00:12:28,190 normally work in the industry. So trying to say no you don't, 237 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,270 don't don't wait your turn to approve something. 238 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,330 You need to get in there the outset and design it and make 239 00:12:33,340 --> 00:12:36,680 sure that the scope is right from everybody from all the all 240 00:12:36,690 --> 00:12:38,870 the different disciplines perspectives because if you 241 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:40,510 don't get the scope right then we're not going to get the 242 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:41,920 outcome right. So you need to be in there from 243 00:12:41,930 --> 00:12:44,120 the beginning. Not sort of sitting at the side 244 00:12:44,130 --> 00:12:46,510 so we're we're working really hard on that because I really 245 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,840 believe in that because it's it goes to a diversity point 246 00:12:49,850 --> 00:12:53,060 actually which is to get to the right outcome and you need to be 247 00:12:53,070 --> 00:12:56,790 able to listen to a whole array of different voices but we all 248 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,860 need to recognise that diversity is actually really hard and 249 00:12:59,870 --> 00:13:04,010 inclusion is really hard because it's easy and I I joke around 250 00:13:04,020 --> 00:13:06,530 like group think is really easy because we just all trundle 251 00:13:06,540 --> 00:13:11,130 along and we think it's all fine but actually when you when 252 00:13:11,140 --> 00:13:13,710 you're you know we we make friends we tend to make friends 253 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,230 with people who are similar to us because it's easy but when 254 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,900 we're in work we we have to to get to those good outcomes we 255 00:13:19,910 --> 00:13:22,000 really have to listen to different voices and they might 256 00:13:22,010 --> 00:13:23,260 be things you don't want to hear. 257 00:13:23,340 --> 00:13:25,210 And that's hard. It is like we, you know it's 258 00:13:25,220 --> 00:13:29,270 it's challenging and I think we we really need to lean into that 259 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:33,120 difference because that is how we get to to to the better 260 00:13:33,130 --> 00:13:35,330 outcomes, faster outcomes. But it takes us longer to get 261 00:13:35,340 --> 00:13:37,880 there at the beginning. And again you know it's an 262 00:13:37,890 --> 00:13:40,430 industry like we need to start building stuff straight away. 263 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,350 It's like actually if you think about the design first they put 264 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,910 a little bit more time in the at the front end where all the 265 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,530 costs, you know basically all your cost decisions at the front 266 00:13:48,540 --> 00:13:51,150 end, but a little bit more time in the front end you should get 267 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:52,830 to much better outcomes. The back end. 268 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:55,330 It should be cheaper, but you have to sit with a level of 269 00:13:55,340 --> 00:13:58,260 discomfort for a while that people really don't like. 270 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,230 Two things sponsor One, have you read Bent Flubber's book, How 271 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:04,530 Big Things Get Done? Yes, because there's a lot of 272 00:14:04,540 --> 00:14:08,990 chiming there in that. And 2nd, how do you set up a 273 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:14,500 culture of an organisation or project that is up for dealing 274 00:14:14,510 --> 00:14:18,410 with the difficulties that come with diversity of opinion and 275 00:14:18,460 --> 00:14:21,640 not taking the easy Rd of just having everyone say yes and 276 00:14:21,650 --> 00:14:25,890 agree with you? So we just actually had our our 277 00:14:25,900 --> 00:14:28,830 sort of half yearly away day last week and we've been, we've 278 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:30,160 been talking about this a lot because. 279 00:14:30,970 --> 00:14:34,080 Most people join these pressurised to be different but 280 00:14:34,090 --> 00:14:36,470 we we realise that a lot of people's different, we're 281 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,420 different from each other. So we we we had a whole 282 00:14:39,430 --> 00:14:42,010 discussion and then I think this is how do you get people to do 283 00:14:42,020 --> 00:14:43,300 this. We had a big discussion about 284 00:14:43,310 --> 00:14:45,600 how what what are the different, what do we really want to be 285 00:14:45,610 --> 00:14:46,700 like? What are the five things we want 286 00:14:46,710 --> 00:14:48,880 to be different at? Not, not everything. 287 00:14:49,050 --> 00:14:51,140 We can't be different, we can't do everything. 288 00:14:51,150 --> 00:14:54,460 So what are the big things that we want to be different about 289 00:14:54,470 --> 00:14:57,340 And so you know the first couple of things to me are you know, 290 00:14:57,350 --> 00:15:00,380 put the communities first. This is about providing a 291 00:15:00,390 --> 00:15:02,340 railway to people. It's not about some shiny 292 00:15:02,350 --> 00:15:04,590 infrastructure. It's about communities and 293 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,240 people and back to this building less stuff. 294 00:15:07,250 --> 00:15:09,280 I think that's really important because again, we're having a 295 00:15:09,290 --> 00:15:11,990 climate emergency. And the you know if we can think 296 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:16,550 about this as more bang for your buck by doing less how how do we 297 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,260 go into that space. But you know the the team needs 298 00:15:19,270 --> 00:15:21,390 to buy into these things and that's why we we kind of put it 299 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:23,860 out for engagement to everybody is like what what where is it 300 00:15:23,870 --> 00:15:26,730 that we want to be operating at. Because I think it is really 301 00:15:26,740 --> 00:15:29,950 important that if we're going to take this position the the the 302 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,620 company needs to be brought into that people need to participate 303 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:34,990 and say you know what what matters to them. 304 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,010 So they are really, really bought into what the, what those 305 00:15:38,020 --> 00:15:42,090 things we're going to be doing to be different are you've 306 00:15:42,150 --> 00:15:46,030 worked for the big kind of rail projects, HS2 and you've also 307 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,990 worked for Transport for London. What lessons, experiences, 308 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,390 expertise have you brought from those projects to this project? 309 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:55,590 I like to think that I take everything and I put it in my 310 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:57,700 backpack and bring it with me somebody somebody used that 311 00:15:57,710 --> 00:15:59,670 example elsewhere and and I think it's a really good one 312 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,870 because every experience is a useful experience even if you're 313 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,570 not going to use it now or even it's not directly applicable, 314 00:16:06,580 --> 00:16:08,860 it's it's good experience to have. 315 00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:12,290 And I think from my banking days, what I took with me from 316 00:16:12,300 --> 00:16:15,650 that is that and I was on the debt side and there's no upside 317 00:16:15,660 --> 00:16:17,100 in debt. So it's all you know how do you 318 00:16:17,110 --> 00:16:20,210 manage your downside risk. So I tend to approach everything 319 00:16:20,220 --> 00:16:22,760 which is. OK, what do I want to achieve? 320 00:16:22,770 --> 00:16:25,120 And what are my risks of not achieving that? 321 00:16:25,210 --> 00:16:28,140 And then I try to, I try to create a solution that is 322 00:16:28,150 --> 00:16:31,720 suitable for the situation. So the more experiences I have, 323 00:16:31,730 --> 00:16:33,680 the more I can see how different things work in different 324 00:16:33,690 --> 00:16:35,780 contexts. And then it's how do you apply 325 00:16:35,790 --> 00:16:37,980 them to the, to the risks that you have, to the, to the 326 00:16:37,990 --> 00:16:40,790 opportunities that you have. Because everything is different. 327 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:45,010 And I think that the what the industry often tends to do is 328 00:16:45,020 --> 00:16:47,680 sort of apply the rule that they use the last time. 329 00:16:47,740 --> 00:16:50,410 But it's a different set of circumstances and any project 330 00:16:50,420 --> 00:16:52,380 that we're working on and there are, you know, there are 331 00:16:52,390 --> 00:16:54,830 different opportunities, there are different risks, there's, 332 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:56,580 you know, different ground conditions, you know there 333 00:16:56,590 --> 00:17:00,860 there's different stuff. And so we should be taking all 334 00:17:00,870 --> 00:17:03,260 that good experience and the good experience of our 335 00:17:03,270 --> 00:17:05,650 colleagues and figuring out what are the things we need. 336 00:17:05,660 --> 00:17:09,160 How do we, how do we do that, this one this time, because it's 337 00:17:09,170 --> 00:17:12,740 different from the last one. What do you enjoy most about 338 00:17:12,750 --> 00:17:16,329 your role? I I love talking to all of our 339 00:17:16,339 --> 00:17:18,990 stakeholders actually. I find it you know and it's hard 340 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,210 sometimes when when you when you don't you bring bad news or they 341 00:17:22,220 --> 00:17:25,069 don't like what you're saying. But I think, but I think that 342 00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:27,970 it's it's also great to work with people to come up with a 343 00:17:27,980 --> 00:17:30,690 really good outcome, a shared a really good shared outcome. 344 00:17:30,860 --> 00:17:33,090 And so I love going to talk to our local authority partners to 345 00:17:33,100 --> 00:17:36,550 say OK well if we are going to deliver our our bright diversity 346 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:40,150 net gain commitments which is 10% more than any impact that we 347 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,690 had. How can we work with you to get 348 00:17:42,700 --> 00:17:45,030 to come up with a solution that's actually what you want as 349 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:47,280 well. So you know there's no money out 350 00:17:47,290 --> 00:17:48,710 you know in the in the water world. 351 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,760 So how do we deliver with our obligations and the budget that 352 00:17:52,770 --> 00:17:55,440 we have, we're going to have? For this fire diversity net 353 00:17:55,450 --> 00:17:59,160 gain, how do we deliver a nature reserve for the local authority 354 00:17:59,170 --> 00:18:02,180 that they want it anyway. So it's sort of those kinds of 355 00:18:02,190 --> 00:18:06,430 conversations and that whole, you know, let's figure out how 356 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,310 we can meet our shared objectives together as I find 357 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,690 that really exciting. And the flipside, what the 358 00:18:11,700 --> 00:18:16,700 hardest bits about your role? Poor or or or maybe I, I can 359 00:18:16,710 --> 00:18:18,610 recognise that. What are the biggest challenges 360 00:18:18,620 --> 00:18:21,060 you face? Because obviously politics for a 361 00:18:21,070 --> 00:18:24,510 project like this has massive impacts, as you've already 362 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:26,760 talked about. It it does. 363 00:18:26,770 --> 00:18:29,640 I mean I think that that for us though we've got great cross 364 00:18:29,650 --> 00:18:32,420 party support which is really, really important that obviously 365 00:18:32,490 --> 00:18:34,750 I think. Any infrastructure project needs 366 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,650 to have cross party support and it's cross party support across 367 00:18:37,660 --> 00:18:41,410 the region because most infrastructure projects last 368 00:18:41,420 --> 00:18:45,800 more than one election cycle. So it is really important that 369 00:18:45,850 --> 00:18:48,370 and and you know a big a big thing that came out of bent 370 00:18:48,380 --> 00:18:51,520 lyrics Buck is about you know how do you actually deal with 371 00:18:51,530 --> 00:18:54,530 the election cycles and try to shorten the time to delivery 372 00:18:54,540 --> 00:18:58,690 because it it's you know those are the things that that stall 373 00:18:58,700 --> 00:19:01,670 and and make you know have the cost increases. 374 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,490 So sort of I'm really keen to make sure we deliver as quickly 375 00:19:04,500 --> 00:19:07,950 as we possibly can so we can minimise the number of election 376 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:09,490 cycles. I I think one of the biggest 377 00:19:09,500 --> 00:19:11,510 challenges we're going to have though is about money. 378 00:19:11,710 --> 00:19:15,450 The economy as we all know hasn't been in great shape. 379 00:19:15,490 --> 00:19:18,860 This is a growth project. This is here to support growth, 380 00:19:19,010 --> 00:19:21,950 but there's still a lot of other things and a lot of other 381 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:24,370 challenging government commitments across the board. 382 00:19:24,380 --> 00:19:25,960 The government is going to have to face. 383 00:19:25,970 --> 00:19:29,280 So it's trying to get into that prioritisation because it's a 384 00:19:29,290 --> 00:19:31,290 long term project. This is, this is not a short 385 00:19:31,300 --> 00:19:34,560 term solution. So to get to that growth in 10 386 00:19:34,570 --> 00:19:38,380 years time, we need to put in the investment now to do that. 387 00:19:38,390 --> 00:19:40,550 And when you've got all these conflicting priorities that are 388 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,030 really important, it's really important to, you know, get the 389 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,120 NHS working. It's really important to have 390 00:19:46,130 --> 00:19:47,900 great schools. You know that there are all 391 00:19:47,910 --> 00:19:51,040 these other competing, competing issues and so. 392 00:19:51,150 --> 00:19:53,830 You know we we're going to have to continue to make our case 393 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,910 even if we do have great cross party support to make sure that 394 00:19:57,120 --> 00:19:58,660 we get the investment for the project. 395 00:19:59,750 --> 00:20:02,390 One area I wanted to ask you about was you as the leader, 396 00:20:02,450 --> 00:20:04,860 have you consciously developed a leadership style? 397 00:20:04,870 --> 00:20:07,400 Have you reflected on what kind of D you want to be? 398 00:20:07,410 --> 00:20:10,940 Or have you been influenced by other people you you've admired 399 00:20:10,950 --> 00:20:13,460 in the past? I think again I've I've been 400 00:20:13,470 --> 00:20:15,810 influenced by by lots of people for good or bad. 401 00:20:15,820 --> 00:20:17,960 You know you see you see people's styles and you see what 402 00:20:17,970 --> 00:20:20,080 you do want to do and you don't want to do. 403 00:20:20,150 --> 00:20:23,200 There's the someone I worked with who's the chief executive 2 404 00:20:23,210 --> 00:20:26,090 blondes John Lamont. I loved watching him listen to 405 00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:28,240 everybody's point of view and then make a make a decision. 406 00:20:28,250 --> 00:20:31,740 And then if anybody was sort of drifting away from that decision 407 00:20:31,750 --> 00:20:34,840 he'd call people back into line which is a really good you know 408 00:20:34,850 --> 00:20:37,620 I think that's a really great model to follow because you do 409 00:20:37,630 --> 00:20:39,960 have to make to make progress. You have to make decisions. 410 00:20:39,970 --> 00:20:43,080 But he would always listen to everybody's point of views 1st 411 00:20:43,450 --> 00:20:46,480 and and you know ideally I think it all circumstances you want 412 00:20:46,490 --> 00:20:48,160 people to come you come to an agreement. 413 00:20:48,170 --> 00:20:50,880 You don't want to have to impose a decision upon upon them. 414 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:52,660 Good. So you know that was that was an 415 00:20:52,670 --> 00:20:55,870 objective but he would take the decision rather than letting it 416 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,860 drift and then but the it's the holding people to account but as 417 00:20:58,870 --> 00:21:03,080 well rather than than sort of again drifting off into Oh well 418 00:21:03,090 --> 00:21:06,690 I didn't really like that decision but I think for me it's 419 00:21:06,700 --> 00:21:09,900 about being who I am as well. What do you mean by that? 420 00:21:10,540 --> 00:21:14,480 Well, I think that that there is there has been for a very long 421 00:21:14,490 --> 00:21:17,440 time a perception of what a leader is supposed to be. 422 00:21:17,450 --> 00:21:22,290 Like which is well I think alpha dog type and being often very 423 00:21:22,300 --> 00:21:26,230 sort of or aggressive and being super outgoing as well. 424 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,040 And and I've talked to people who've worked for me and who've 425 00:21:29,050 --> 00:21:30,990 been you know I've had economists work for me and be 426 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,090 introverts and going oh I don't know if I can if I can be a 427 00:21:34,100 --> 00:21:37,410 leader and I said you know you can be you know you don't have 428 00:21:37,420 --> 00:21:39,810 to be like that. You know that that sort of alpha 429 00:21:39,820 --> 00:21:43,330 dog type person that you might you might see as the the 430 00:21:43,340 --> 00:21:45,430 stereotypical leader view you can be. 431 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,750 You can be yourself and be a leader you don't have. 432 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:50,810 You know you have to shout at people you don't have to be that 433 00:21:50,820 --> 00:21:53,300 kind of person. You you find your own leadership 434 00:21:53,310 --> 00:21:57,980 style and the thing what I've tried to do is to just make sure 435 00:21:57,990 --> 00:22:00,930 that I'm being myself and and the government normal human 436 00:22:00,940 --> 00:22:02,850 being and I try to treat everybody else like normal human 437 00:22:02,860 --> 00:22:07,040 beings and not be grand. And so I think people are really 438 00:22:07,050 --> 00:22:09,370 that, you know they do find me approachable and they will tell 439 00:22:09,380 --> 00:22:11,100 me stuff and that's how we get things done. 440 00:22:11,110 --> 00:22:14,400 And you know it it it is one of those things that I want 441 00:22:14,410 --> 00:22:16,840 everyone to be respectful of each other that I work with 442 00:22:16,850 --> 00:22:20,180 because everybody is a person and deserving of respect 443 00:22:20,190 --> 00:22:23,820 irrespective of what level they're sitting at and people do 444 00:22:23,830 --> 00:22:27,240 have experience and views and they should be listened to. 445 00:22:27,690 --> 00:22:30,540 You know, again, irrespective of hierarchies, because everyone 446 00:22:30,550 --> 00:22:32,900 has something to bring to to what we're doing. 447 00:22:33,710 --> 00:22:36,720 You're probably one of very few women at the top of an 448 00:22:36,730 --> 00:22:39,360 infrastructure project. Just looking back over your 449 00:22:39,370 --> 00:22:43,720 career, how has being a woman impacted on your career, whether 450 00:22:43,730 --> 00:22:46,500 it's positive, negative or hasn't made a blind bit of 451 00:22:46,510 --> 00:22:48,000 difference as far as you're concerned? 452 00:22:48,130 --> 00:22:50,760 I think it's made a huge amount of difference quite frankly 453 00:22:50,770 --> 00:22:54,970 because I've always worked in in male dominated industries and I 454 00:22:54,980 --> 00:22:59,720 think one of the things from the outset is that I knew that I was 455 00:22:59,790 --> 00:23:02,600 going to be memorable irrespective of what I did. 456 00:23:03,230 --> 00:23:05,680 So when I was in New York it was just being a young woman. 457 00:23:05,810 --> 00:23:09,420 When I moved to to London it was being being a woman with this 458 00:23:09,430 --> 00:23:12,610 accent. And so I didn't want to be 459 00:23:12,620 --> 00:23:15,700 memorable for the wrong reasons. So I wanted to be, you know, I 460 00:23:15,710 --> 00:23:17,540 wanted to be the most clever person in the room with the most 461 00:23:17,550 --> 00:23:19,720 knowledgeable or the most. You know I've read all my 462 00:23:19,730 --> 00:23:24,200 documents and I did my things and I, you know, because I, I 463 00:23:24,250 --> 00:23:27,580 whatever I did people were going to Remember Me and and it's it's 464 00:23:27,590 --> 00:23:30,380 a space that and I'm just very conscious of that. 465 00:23:30,430 --> 00:23:32,570 I wouldn't call it role modelling now but it was sort it 466 00:23:32,580 --> 00:23:35,400 sort of it is a you know people are watching what you're doing 467 00:23:35,410 --> 00:23:40,280 and so I I've always been just conscious of and I haven't 468 00:23:40,290 --> 00:23:42,910 always succeeded. I will be very honest about that 469 00:23:43,420 --> 00:23:48,490 and be you know and and but it's it's about almost having not 470 00:23:48,500 --> 00:23:51,800 even having to represent but but my you know almost being judged 471 00:23:51,810 --> 00:23:55,550 by not by not at another level and being conscious of of being 472 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,950 judged at a different level because of because of where you 473 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:00,910 are. I think also because I'm so 474 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,170 noticeable I've been probably bolder than I might have 475 00:24:03,180 --> 00:24:06,090 otherwise been because my head was already above the parapet. 476 00:24:06,300 --> 00:24:07,930 So I might as well say what I think. 477 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:09,500 That's a great idea. Yeah. 478 00:24:09,510 --> 00:24:11,440 That's a great point. Yeah, why not? 479 00:24:11,660 --> 00:24:14,110 Yeah, why not? I mean it's like I'm there so, 480 00:24:14,180 --> 00:24:16,370 so you're halfway there, so you might as well be all the way 481 00:24:16,380 --> 00:24:17,600 there. So I think that there's almost 482 00:24:17,610 --> 00:24:22,140 is almost emboldened me to a certain extent to to to be more 483 00:24:22,150 --> 00:24:23,760 outspoken than it might have been otherwise. 484 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:29,030 If you could look back at 20 year old Beth and give her some 485 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,430 advice, what would you say to her? 486 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:33,650 Well, I would say it's all about the people. 487 00:24:33,660 --> 00:24:39,250 You know you that I think I was a very academic ambitious person 488 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,110 and I thought especially my banking days, it was really easy 489 00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:45,400 to think that it's just about the work and it's just about the 490 00:24:45,410 --> 00:24:48,210 work and it's it's not not just about the work, it's really 491 00:24:48,220 --> 00:24:51,060 about how do you have good relationships, how do you use 492 00:24:51,070 --> 00:24:53,570 those relationships to deliver good things. 493 00:24:53,580 --> 00:24:58,510 And it it, you know, how we work together as human beings is is a 494 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,480 really important thing. And so I think I would tell 495 00:25:02,490 --> 00:25:06,690 myself that don't look at just the work, look at who you're 496 00:25:06,700 --> 00:25:08,790 working with, how you're impacting them, how they're 497 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,100 impacting you, what you're doing together, because that's the 498 00:25:11,110 --> 00:25:13,860 important stuff. Did did the experience of the 499 00:25:13,870 --> 00:25:16,640 pandemic, The more people interview, the more I realise 500 00:25:16,650 --> 00:25:20,360 that it did have like a lasting effect on values or what you 501 00:25:20,370 --> 00:25:22,720 want to do in your career, and you can see there's been 502 00:25:22,730 --> 00:25:25,700 permanent change. Did the pandemic change anything 503 00:25:25,710 --> 00:25:28,380 for you? Did you reassess anything I 504 00:25:28,390 --> 00:25:30,910 think, I think I'm always reassessing it sort of I I 505 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:36,900 probably spend over I over assess sometimes but I I think 506 00:25:37,030 --> 00:25:40,830 it's brought home to me more that that that the importance of 507 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,970 being with people. I think I'm I'm desperate to to 508 00:25:43,980 --> 00:25:47,830 be with people and you know live and in person because I think 509 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:53,010 that the the the pandemic period we we all figured out how to 510 00:25:53,020 --> 00:25:57,130 work in a different way which did a job it was transactional 511 00:25:57,140 --> 00:26:02,880 and technical and it was it had a purpose but I think that face 512 00:26:02,890 --> 00:26:07,270 to face interaction you know working together you know is 513 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,000 still really really important and probably I probably think 514 00:26:11,010 --> 00:26:13,350 that more now that I that we don't have it as much. 515 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,370 And I think I've realised the importance of the coffee and the 516 00:26:17,380 --> 00:26:19,740 and and again, it's I I've always been about let's get the 517 00:26:19,750 --> 00:26:21,510 work done and I can go hang out with my mates. 518 00:26:21,580 --> 00:26:24,800 So I think that it's that I've realised the importance of of 519 00:26:25,420 --> 00:26:27,650 when when I was when I was doing my property development, we were 520 00:26:27,660 --> 00:26:30,240 doing commercial offices and commercial office design was all 521 00:26:30,250 --> 00:26:32,560 about how do you have serendipitous moments where you 522 00:26:32,570 --> 00:26:36,020 bump into people and have great ideas that still really matters. 523 00:26:36,450 --> 00:26:38,980 OK, brilliant. Thank you so much for your time. 524 00:26:39,050 --> 00:26:41,430 I wish you the best of luck. Thanks very much. 525 00:26:47,370 --> 00:26:49,970 Thanks again to Beth for joining us, and to you for listening to 526 00:26:49,980 --> 00:26:52,540 the APM podcast. Don't forget to look out for 527 00:26:52,550 --> 00:26:55,060 more episodes or to rate and review us wherever you get your 528 00:26:55,070 --> 00:26:57,580 podcasts. We welcome you to get in touch 529 00:26:57,590 --> 00:27:01,090 with your comments, feedback and suggestions by emailing us at 530 00:27:01,140 --> 00:27:07,130 apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. This podcast has been brought to 531 00:27:07,140 --> 00:27:09,790 you by APM, The Chartered Body for the project profession. 532 00:27:10,450 --> 00:27:14,260 For more information on APM, visit apm.org.uk.