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Welcome to the APM podcast. 
APM is the chartered body for 

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the project profession. 
My name is Emma DaVita and I'm 

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the editor of Project APM's 
Quarterly journal and your host 

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today. 
In this podcast we're tackling 

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the perennial problem of 
self-confidence and why many of 

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us need an occasional and more 
general boost to our levels of 

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it. 
To find out exactly how you can 

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do this and also how to bounce 
back from a set back, I'm 

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speaking to Inga Beale, ex CEO 
of Lloyds of London and a woman 

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who has very much learnt how to 
get ahead in the male dominated 

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sector. 
I'm also getting the advice from

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leadership coach Muriel Wilkins 
of Pravis Partners in the US, 

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who has a new book called 
Leadership Unblocked, just 

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published by Harvard Business 
Review Press. 

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She's also the host of Harvard 
Business Review's Coaching Real 

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Leaders podcast. 
I also speak to Anita Fagura, 

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who is highly experienced in the
world of project management and 

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is now a leadership development 
and culture coach, particularly 

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around inclusion. 
So first, let's meet Muriel and 

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find out what she's learnt from 
her work coaching business 

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leaders and getting ahead in 
business herself. 

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Murals, so great to speak to 
you. 

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Thanks for joining us on the IBM
Podcast today. 

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Absolutely. 
I'm delighted to be here. 

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You coach people in business to 
help them within their careers. 

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How much is a problem of 
self-confidence to them? 

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Is it common? 
What kinds of things have you 

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have they shared with you about 
their concerns around 

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confidence? 
Yeah. 

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I mean, certainly, I think the 
topic of confidence in 

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particular self-confidence is 
something that absolutely comes 

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up with individuals at different
as different stages of their 

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career, whether it is when 
they're first starting and even 

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as they get more senior. 
I work with folks along the full

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trajectory and specialise, 
particularly with those who are 

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senior. 
And even when you get to that 

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level, when you're entering a 
new situation, a new context, a 

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new function or role, it can 
lead you to questioning whether 

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you have the capability to to do
that role. 

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So it can get in the way, 
particularly in terms of diving 

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into new opportunities with your
full, with all the strengths 

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that you bring it. 
I can also see it sometimes be 

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at a cost where folks 
overcompensate for what they 

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feel they're lacking in and then
it pushes too much so it it can 

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get in the way on both ends. 
Some treating and then some sort

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of pushing over pushing in a way
that that doesn't bear well for 

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them, particularly when it comes
to relationships. 

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And thank you. 
Is there a particular group of 

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people? 
I recently went to a Women in 

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project Management conference 
and there was a lot of chatter 

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around lunch and in the breaks 
around self-confidence and the 

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lack of it, which surprised me 
because they're all very 

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successful people. 
But is do you feel as though 

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it's something that's 
particularly widespread among 

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amongst women in business, more 
so than men? 

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Look, I, I work with folks 
across gender lines and, and 

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while I see the issue of 
self-confidence come up across 

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both genders, I think that it is
exacerbated a bit more with 

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women. 
And I think there's also the 

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reason like we have to sort of 
dig below the surface and 

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understand where the self, the 
lack of self-confidence might be

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coming up. 
I think the reason it's 

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exacerbated with women are quite
frankly, any underrepresented 

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groups. 
Is that part of what might give 

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you confidence, right? 
Is when you see yourself and 

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others, those folks mirror the, 
the, the, the belief that you 

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think you can also succeed in 
that particular situation. 

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So if you are from an 
underrepresented group, whether 

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it's a woman in a male dominated
industry or other types of under

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representation, it, it is easy 
to understand why the trigger or

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the exacerbation of lack of 
self-confidence might come up 

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right, Because you don't see as 
many to mirror back, which I 

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think creates a really 
interesting issue here in terms 

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of, well, what is 
self-confidence and where do 

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where do you source it from? 
And, and when you think about 

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what self-confidence is, right, 
it's the confidence in yourself.

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Well, what is confidence? 
Confidence is if you can break. 

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I'm very interested in what 
words mean. 

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And so when you break down the 
word confidence, you can go back

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to the root of the Latin word 
confidelis. 

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What is fidelis? 
We know fidelis means faith. 

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So confidence literally means 
with faith and faith, you know, 

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and this is not from a religious
standpoint, it's definition, you

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know, faith is the belief in the
unknown. 

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So when we break that down, what
does that actually mean to have 

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self-confidence? 
It's to believe in yourself even

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when you don't know what's going
to happen. 

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That's what confidence is. 
It's the belief in yourself. 

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So what what, what is required 
to be able to do that sometimes 

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and why, you know, particularly 
women or again, underrepresented

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groups might not have as much 
self-confidence as that. 

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They don't see proof of that in 
others, not because others don't

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have it, but they don't see 
those others. 

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They don't see other women and 
in the same situation that 

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they're in able to have the 
positive outcomes that they 

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desire for themselves and 
therefore it is again triggers 

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or might exacerbate lack of 
self-confidence more so than 

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others who do see more 
representation where they are. 

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And does that apply to age as 
well? 

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Because you can get quite far, 
quite young as a project 

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professional. 
And then you might be in a 

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project team where you are 
working alongside people you 

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don't know who are experts in 
their fields. 

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That might be an architect, an 
engineer who might be male, who 

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might be considerably older than
you, and who might not credit 

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you with the authority you 
deserve and it might make you 

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feel intimidated. 
We'll come on to general pieces 

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of advice you can give later 
around boosting self-confidence.

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But in that particular scenario,
what is useful to think about 

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before you go into that 
situation or you find yourself 

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working in a situation like 
this? 

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What can you tell yourself to 
help with you that 

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self-confidence? 
Yeah. 

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I mean, I think what you need 
to, to be able to recognise is 

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your role is not there to be, to
be toe to toe with the person 

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who might be 30 years your 
senior, right. 

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I, I recall in my own career, 
you know, when I started off 

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many, many years ago, you know, 
not only was I typically the 

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youngest person in the room, but
I also looked much younger than 

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what I was. 
So here I was dealing with, you 

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know, the the quintessential 
sort of grey haired male, you 

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know, and I would walk in this, 
you know, post college for sure,

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but everybody thought that I was
a high school student. 

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And so here's here's what I 
realised. 

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There's nothing I can do about 
that. 

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Like what, what am I going to 
do? 

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Go and grey my hair and try to 
make myself look older? 

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Well, that's not so the real 
what you do and what you tell 

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yourself is why am I in this 
room? 

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What is the value that I bring? 
The value that I bring is not to

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be like that person. 
I have to define the value that 

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I bring. 
There's a reason I'm in this 

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role. 
There's a reason I'm in this 

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meeting. 
And let me be clear about what 

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that is and lean into that 
rather than waste my energy on 

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trying to be, you know, one of 
these other folks. 

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I mean that saying comparison is
the thief of joy. 

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It is exactly a comparison is 
the thief of confidence, Let me 

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of self-confidence, let me tell 
you. 

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Because you're not looking at 
yourself at that point. 

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You're looking at everybody else
and comparing yourself and using

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that as your definition of 
success rather than the success 

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that you're already bringing in.
That's a great piece of advice. 

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I I was was wondering how much 
of A blocker to your own career 

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success is a lack of 
self-confidence beyond making 

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you feel uncomfortable, but how 
how important is it for you to 

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have some a greater level of 
self-confidence for you to 

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progress in your career? 
I think it's, I think it is 

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critically important. 
I think it's critically 

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important not just for work, but
in life, right? 

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And why, you know, because part 
of what you're doing when you're

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dealing with work is you're 
dealing with uncertainty. 

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You're dealing with the 
uncertainty of how this project 

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is going to turn out, of being 
able to manage a team, of being 

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able to take that next role, of 
being able to do the job or, or,

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or ace that presentation. 
You prepare. 

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But there's always a bit of 
uncertainty. 

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And So what gets you through 
that uncertainty, what gets you 

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through that uncertainty is the 
belief that no matter what 

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happens on the other side, 
you're going to be able to deal 

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with it. 
You know, the issue is people 

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tend to wait until they're ready
to do something to feel 

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confident. 
That's not what confidence is. 

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Confidence is not about you 
knowing how to do the thing. 

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Confidence is about knowing that
you can learn how to do the 

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thing. 
And it's also about knowing that

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no matter what happens, you'll 
be able to deal with it. 

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It might not be comfortable, it 
might be challenging, it might 

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be a little painful, but you'll 
be able to get through it. 

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That that is the difference 
between having self-confidence 

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or not. 
So in reality, you know, we get 

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really caught up in this word 
self-confidence. 

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I actually think, and, and I 
didn't make this term up. 

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It comes from, I can't remember 
the author's name right now, but

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it's really about self efficacy,
right? 

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Will you have the 
resourcefulness to be able to 

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deal with whatever challenges in
front of you? 

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That that's what self-confidence
is rather than outsourcing it to

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someone else. 
So it comes from a place of 

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resourcefulness and 
understanding that you have what

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it takes mentally, emotionally, 
physically, skill wise 

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capabilities to be able to deal 
with not only learning the 

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thing, but figuring out how to 
deal with the thing whether it 

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turns out well or doesn't turn 
out well. 

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That is such a great way to 
think about it. 

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I've never taken that angle 
before. 

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So it's no, it's feeling a sense
of resourcefulness that you can 

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rely on yourself to to solve 
this problem or get through it. 

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OK. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

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Because think about it, right? 
So when you talk about does it 

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get in the way of a career? 
Well, where it gets in the way 

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of the career is of your career 
potential or anything that you 

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might do is a lot of us, you 
know, do not take steps forward 

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because we're concerned about 
what might happen if we take 

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that step forward. 
But if you feel like, OK, I'm 

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not exactly sure how it's going 
to turn out. 

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I mean, who knows how anything's
ever going to turn out, right? 

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Like we don't have that type of 
control, you know? 

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And if you do, let me know your 
secret. 

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But if we know, if we can trust 
ourselves that either I will 

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know how to deal with whatever 
happens or I will know how to 

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get the resources, you know, I 
will be resourceful enough to be

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able to know who to ask or what 
to ask or to even ask for help, 

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then I know that I'll, again, 
I'll make it through. 

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I think we spent a lot of our 
times, and this is where, again,

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it can get away in your career. 
We can, we, we spent an enormous

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amount of energy and time trying
to keep ourselves from being 

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uncomfortable, you know, And so 
that's where this, you know, 

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this again, it can really impact
your own confidence in yourself 

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if you believe that you will not
be able to deal with the 

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discomfort of what might happen.
But I, I, when I work with 

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clients is getting them 
comfortable with the idea and 

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even the reality of being 
uncomfortable. 

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And once they realise they can, 
then it's like, OK, well, I've 

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been through that. 
You know, I can certainly go 

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through something else, even if 
I may not like it. 

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Excellent stuff there. 
Two things that I'm just 

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thinking about as you were 
talking a is confidence related 

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to optimism. 
So the more if, the more 

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optimistic you feel. 
Do you feel more confident? 

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And the second thing was around,
does self-confidence improve 

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naturally over time because you 
generally experienced more new 

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situations and, and if and 
you've navigated, it's been a 

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successful failure, but you got 
through and you survived, you 

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know, through the other end. 
So do you think you're naturally

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more self confident if you're an
optimist? 

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Let me start with the optimism 
piece, right? 

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Is it, are, are people who are 
self confident naturally 

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optimist? 
I, I don't have the data behind 

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that. 
I mean, we would have to ask 

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some social scientists and some,
some researchers to figure that 

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out. 
But anecdotally, what I would 

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say is that people who have 
self-confidence, I think are 

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realistic opt have realistic 
optimism. 

235
00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,720
You know, it's not, you know, I,
I, I had somebody tell me once, 

236
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you know that there's a thin 
line between optimism and 

237
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optimism and denial, right? 
So it's not just optimism where 

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it's like, oh, you know, 
everything's fine, everything's 

239
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fine, I can do it. 
No, no, no. 

240
00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,880
I think folks who have 
self-confidence are also 

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grounded in reality. 
So they assess the situation for

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00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:50,360
what it is and then they decide,
you know, am I going to look at 

243
00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:51,680
it? 
Glass half full? 

244
00:13:51,680 --> 00:13:54,400
Where's the opportunity? 
Do I have the growth mindset, 

245
00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,520
right? 
Which is I, I, I, I may not know

246
00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:02,320
it yet, but I have the capacity 
to know it or learn it versus 

247
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the fixed mindset, which is, it 
is what it is. 

248
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There's nothing that can change,
I cannot adapt, etcetera. 

249
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So yes, there's optimism, but 
it's an optimism that is 

250
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,360
grounded in reality. 
And so it's the realistic 

251
00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:18,480
optimism, which is, let me 
assess and see the situation for

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00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,640
what it is. 
OK, so that's number one. 

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00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,000
The second question is, can 
self-confidence, does 

254
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:28,040
self-confidence naturally grow 
over time? 

255
00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,080
Maybe for some it does, right? 
Because they have a track record

256
00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:39,200
and and then so therefore the 
track record sort of reinforces 

257
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,800
the the confidence that they 
have. 

258
00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:47,360
I will say that what that does 
is support the confidence, but 

259
00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:51,640
I'm not convinced that it grows 
the self-confidence, OK, Because

260
00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:53,200
to me there's a difference 
there. 

261
00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,600
I can be confident because all 
of the external data is telling 

262
00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:01,600
me to be confident. 
People are giving me awards, I'm

263
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,960
getting the A, I'm getting the 
promotion and therefore I am 

264
00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:07,840
confident. 
I believe in myself. 

265
00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,840
I believe I can do all things. 
But what happens when all those 

266
00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,720
things go away? 
That's where self-confidence 

267
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,560
comes into the picture. 
When you have the dry season, 

268
00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:20,480
when you have the drought, when 
you get fired, when you get laid

269
00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,800
off, when the project doesn't 
come through as planned, when 

270
00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,680
you don't get the promotion. 
And so self-confidence, to me, 

271
00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,040
the difference between 
confidence and self-confidence 

272
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,680
is self-confidence is internally
resourced. 

273
00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:37,920
You're not relying on any type 
of external validation to give 

274
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:42,000
you that sense that you know, 
you know what, no matter what, I

275
00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:46,200
know I can figure this out. 
I can, or I know where to go to 

276
00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,960
figure this out, or I know that 
I have it in me that no matter 

277
00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,160
what happens, I'll be able to 
deal with it does now. 

278
00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,760
So the question is, does that 
grow naturally? 

279
00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:01,360
I think that AI wouldn't take my
chances on it growing naturally.

280
00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:05,920
I think you really have to do 
some some work to cultivate 

281
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,000
that. 
It doesn't just happen. 

282
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:12,280
It's like a flower, you know, 
you've got to water the soil and

283
00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,720
if you have a garden, you've got
to water that garden to make 

284
00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:17,640
sure that that type of flower 
grows. 

285
00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:21,840
And I think if that's a type of 
attribute or behaviour or way of

286
00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,640
being that you want, then you do
have to cultivate it within 

287
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,200
yourself. 
And it starts by providing 

288
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,920
yourself with that internal 
validation, rather than solely 

289
00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,960
relying on external validation 
to validate your worth. 

290
00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,840
I love that analogy about 
plants. 

291
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:41,080
My house plants are all dying 
here. 

292
00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,240
I forget to order that, although
I've got that big one in the 

293
00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,080
background there. 
So that's looking pretty 

294
00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,120
healthy. 
But so I mean really to get to 

295
00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,240
the love of it is to ask you 
what work do you do then to 

296
00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,600
cultivate your self-confidence, 
your levels of self-confidence? 

297
00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,240
How how can you boost yourself 
confidence? 

298
00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:03,800
And then my final question would
be, how do you survive Knox to 

299
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,760
yourself confidence? 
Absolutely. 

300
00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,000
OK, so how do you boost it? 
I think there's A at a very 

301
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,160
practical, pragmatic way, I 
think the first thing is really 

302
00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:19,960
to define what your value is. 
OK, So what do I mean by that? 

303
00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,560
You can say it is define your 
value, define your success. 

304
00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:24,040
Why? 
Because most of us, what we're 

305
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:28,359
seeking is to feel worthy, 
whether it's at work, outside of

306
00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:32,960
work and life like and, and, and
no, there's nothing negative 

307
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:34,800
about that. 
I mean, that's a fundamental 

308
00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,600
need, right? 
A fundamental human need is for 

309
00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:41,880
us to feel worthy or feel valued
just as much as it's to feel 

310
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,560
connected and to feel safe. 
And so the, the point around 

311
00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,760
confidence is the reason we go 
look at it from the outside is 

312
00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,840
we're looking for that external 
validation to say, Oh yes, yes, 

313
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:53,800
I'm valuable here in this 
meeting. 

314
00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,880
I'm valuable here in this room 
where while, if you want to 

315
00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,320
cultivate self-confidence, 
you've got to start with, well, 

316
00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:04,320
how do I define my value, right?
What do I see as value in terms 

317
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,440
of what I bring? 
So in a very specific example, 

318
00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,800
the next time you go into a 
meeting, for example, you can 

319
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,600
ask yourself what is the value 
that I'm bringing to this 

320
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:15,200
meeting? 
And it doesn't matter. 

321
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,240
It does not have to be that you 
are the one who's going to come 

322
00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,600
up with the big solution and the
big answer. 

323
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,920
It could be that I'm going to 
come to this meeting because you

324
00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,720
know what? 
I know the details behind the 

325
00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,200
details of this particular 
project. 

326
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,560
And if anyone has a question, I 
will be ready to be able to 

327
00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,680
answer for it. 
Or the value that I bring is 1 

328
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,600
of curiosity and I have an 
ability to ask questions in a 

329
00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:40,680
way that moves the conversation 
forward. 

330
00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,720
The the value that I bring in 
this meeting really to be the 

331
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,520
person who can capture 
everybody's thoughts. 

332
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:52,280
You know, I recall very early in
my career, actually when I was 

333
00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:56,400
switching careers and I was 
trying to get into the world of 

334
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,520
leadership development and I had
really no experience in this 

335
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:04,560
particular world and I went and 
volunteered to facilitate a 

336
00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:06,440
meeting. 
It just so happens the person 

337
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,440
who was facilitating it with me 
was the head of leadership 

338
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,040
development for this big global 
organisation. 

339
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:14,960
And he said to me, oh, oh, 
you're great. 

340
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:16,920
Like, here's what you can do for
me. 

341
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,680
And what he wanted me to do is 
literally be the person who sort

342
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,520
of put the spreadsheet together,
kept the list like a lot of the 

343
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,360
administrative work, because 
what he saw is I had very strong

344
00:19:27,360 --> 00:19:31,360
organisational skills. 
Now, mind you, I had an MBA from

345
00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:35,480
Harvard Business School, right? 
And here what he, what he needed

346
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,840
at that point was somebody who 
was kind of administrative, but 

347
00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:40,560
I had something to gain from 
that. 

348
00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,680
I wanted to be in the room. 
And so by God, if that's the 

349
00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,840
value that I could bring in that
room, to be able to learn from 

350
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:52,120
this person who was epic in his 
field as I knew it would not 

351
00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:55,960
last forever, that I would be 
able to leverage this, then I 

352
00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,880
would rather be in the room 
knowing this is the value that I

353
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:00,640
can bring. 
Because really I had nothing 

354
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:02,640
else to add really. 
I really didn't. 

355
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,400
And so that's what I did. 
So it's very clear that that's 

356
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,520
what I was there for. 
I was not there to go toe to toe

357
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,520
with him and I was also not 
there to do nothing. 

358
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:17,960
So the story is define and 
figure out what the value that 

359
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,480
you bring and be comfortable 
with it. 

360
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:25,240
Be comfortable with it because 
know that it is useful and that 

361
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,440
it will bring you some use, just
as I experienced in my story, 

362
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,280
right? 
So define your value in any 

363
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,320
aspect that you're in, but 
define it in a way that you 

364
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,800
believe in it. 
And then also do some scenario 

365
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,120
planning. 
If you feel like things might 

366
00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:43,560
not go right, do some scenario 
planning around if this were to 

367
00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:44,920
happen, how would I deal with 
it? 

368
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:46,760
If this were to happen, how 
would I deal with it? 

369
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,120
If this were to happen, how 
would I deal with it? 

370
00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:49,960
If this would I deal with it, 
Why? 

371
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,880
Because that increases the 
chances of you feeling 

372
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:57,000
resourcefulness, not so much 
that those exact situations are 

373
00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,480
going to happen, but that you 
have done some warm up in terms 

374
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,520
of understanding that you do 
have self efficacy, that you can

375
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,160
deal with things that might your
way. 

376
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,760
So it's feeling prepared for any
eventuality. 

377
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:11,120
You've got something to suffer 
from. 

378
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:13,960
Absolutely. 
I always say don't wait till 

379
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,200
you're in the situation to then 
figure out how to feel confident

380
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,240
about it. 
It all starts in the warm up and

381
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,480
in the preparation. 
What about any advice around if 

382
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,160
you suffer a big set back knock 
back in your confidence? 

383
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,240
Feeling of self-confidence what?
How should you frame it? 

384
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,920
How should you think about it so
it doesn't leave you demoralised

385
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,160
in a kind of wreck on the floor?
Yeah, absolutely. 

386
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,400
I mean, look, I think that the 
first place to start and this is

387
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:43,960
just an overarching philosophy 
while whether it is a set back 

388
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,960
or a comeback, nothing lasts 
forever, OK. 

389
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,920
I mean this has been, I did not 
make this up. 

390
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:55,120
This isn't the research proves 
it, life proves it. 

391
00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:58,840
This isn't all the wisdom 
teachings from, you know, the 

392
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:03,120
Buddhist teach about 
impermanence to any other that 

393
00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:05,880
you might look at. 
Everything has its season, OK. 

394
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:11,720
And so just as much as we cannot
stay really it is it is 

395
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:17,280
deteriorating to stay attached 
to when things go well. 

396
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,160
It is also deteriorating to stay
attached to when things don't go

397
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:22,840
well. 
You want to sort of hold them 

398
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,760
both as they just are. 
So when you have a set back, you

399
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,200
just see you have to accept it. 
This is a setback. 

400
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,280
This is a setback. 
It's OK to feel sad. 

401
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,000
It's OK to feel upset. 
It's OK. 

402
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:40,000
It's OK. 
It's OK and the set back is not 

403
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,800
going to last forever. 
I have never met anyone who has 

404
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,920
been in a set back their whole 
life. 

405
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,680
It just is OK. 
So that is the first place is 

406
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:54,080
come face to face with reality. 
Then take a look and I think the

407
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,680
first place to look is 
understand what was at play, try

408
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,360
to try to really analyse it in a
way. 

409
00:23:00,360 --> 00:23:03,000
What was that play? 
What were the variables? 

410
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:07,680
How did others contribute to it?
How did I contribute to it? 

411
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:12,480
Now the what I contribute to it 
is not to blame yourself. 

412
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,880
It's not to beat yourself up. 
This is not the assignment. 

413
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:18,960
The assignment is to actually 
give yourself grace. 

414
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,520
OK, This is how I contributed to
it. 

415
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:27,760
And now what is within my 
control around what I can do on 

416
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,440
2 levels. 
One, how I can experience this 

417
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,760
set back because going back to 
early in our conversation, I can

418
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,760
experience it with realistic 
optimism and a growth mindset. 

419
00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:42,360
Or am I going to experience it 
from this place of a fixed 

420
00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:44,080
mindset? 
There's nothing I can do about 

421
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:45,200
it. 
Glass half empty. 

422
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,000
So how do I want to experience 
this set back? 

423
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:53,760
Because the set back is here, 
OK, and then you can move to OK,

424
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,800
what do I want to do? 
All right, what do I want to do 

425
00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:02,680
to try to get through the season
as well as move me to whatever 

426
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,080
it is that I want to move to? 
But one thing that I'm going to 

427
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:09,680
really caution people on is you 
don't want to move directly to 

428
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,160
action right away. 
You don't want to move directly 

429
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,800
to you know what, I'm just going
to go talk to my boss about this

430
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,320
because what drives the action 
is the belief. 

431
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,440
And so if you're still believing
that you're not worthy or that 

432
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,280
you don't have anything to add 
or that you shouldn't be in the 

433
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:29,440
room or that you shouldn't have 
made that mistake or all these 

434
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,800
things that run counter to the 
action and the outcome that you 

435
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,960
want, you've got to make sure 
that your mindset is aligned 

436
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:42,080
with the result that you want. 
And so when it comes to showing 

437
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:46,160
up or or coming back from a set 
back, you've got to make sure 

438
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,920
that you've done the work so 
that your mindset is aligned 

439
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,080
with what you want that comeback
to look like or else it's not 

440
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,960
going to work. 
Mirrors some great insight there

441
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,880
and words of advice, something 
I'll put to good use as well. 

442
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:03,360
I just wondered, was there 
anything else you any last final

443
00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:07,160
pieces of advice you'd give 
around self-confidence before 

444
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,000
you wrap up? 
I mean, I think, you know, we've

445
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,720
talked about it at length, but I
think at the end of the day, the

446
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,880
biggest thing that you have in 
control is not everyone else out

447
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,880
there or the situations out 
there and the circumstances, OK?

448
00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:23,920
So if you're really looking to 
cultivate yourself confident, 

449
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:29,080
focus on the thing that you have
the absolute most control on, 

450
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,680
which is yourself, and that's 
where the real work starts. 

451
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,520
So Muriel's advice to cultivate 
self-confidence is something to 

452
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,320
bear in mind, and also that it's
important to make time to focus 

453
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,080
on ourselves. 
Now let's speak to Anita, who 

454
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,160
has very real experience working
within project management. 

455
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,920
She gives her insight on why 
those in the minority can 

456
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,360
struggle with self-confidence 
and why this is often a systemic

457
00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:58,120
failure. 
Importantly, she gives advice on

458
00:25:58,120 --> 00:26:00,920
what managers can do to boost 
the self-confidence of their 

459
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,760
team members. 
Anita, thanks for joining us. 

460
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,880
It's a pleasure to have you. 
Thanks for finding the time. 

461
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,640
Thanks, Emma. 
I'm really glad to be here and 

462
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:11,880
talking to you. 
Great. 

463
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,960
Well let's try and get to the 
bottom of the subjects of 

464
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,880
self-confidence. 
How much of A blocker to career 

465
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,000
success is a lack of 
self-confidence, do you think? 

466
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:27,600
And is it something that you've 
come across often, but in the 

467
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,560
sexes in which you're familiar 
or the people that you've 

468
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,480
coached or colleagues or your 
own experience? 

469
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,600
So a majority of my own 
experience has been within the 

470
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,960
construction sector and I 
predominantly have coached women

471
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,720
in project management across 
construction and technology. 

472
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:52,120
And self-confidence is a topic 
that comes up nearly every time.

473
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,600
Really, even if it. 
Yeah, nearly every time. 

474
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,680
Even if it's not the main thing 
that somebody comes in with 

475
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:06,280
originally is definitely a key 
blocker that will come up in the

476
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,280
women that I've worked with. 
And, and not just women 

477
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,640
actually, although I've 
predominantly worked with women.

478
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:14,920
Yeah, competence is such a big 
one. 

479
00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:20,160
And I think in these sectors in 
particular, where women 

480
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,640
typically are from 
underrepresented groups, there 

481
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:30,040
can be a culture which 
perpetuates this idea of 

482
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:34,600
difference. 
And that can be then harder when

483
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,120
you're trying to progress in 
your career and seeing how you 

484
00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:40,960
can make the next move, 
particularly if that's a move 

485
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,560
upwards around how is that 
possible when you don't 

486
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,400
necessarily have the role models
ahead of you? 

487
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:53,240
And a lot of a lot of people in 
the sector, particularly women, 

488
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,320
particularly women from 
underrepresented groups, they 

489
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,600
often face quite challenging 
experiences as well. 

490
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:05,080
It can be quite a toxic industry
sometimes or unfortunately too 

491
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,880
often. 
And sometimes I would find that 

492
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:12,160
I was coaching women and 
actually, they would actually 

493
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,040
really grow in terms of their 
own confidence, in terms of 

494
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,800
their own belief in what they 
could do and we're capable of. 

495
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,240
And we're owning that much more.
And then they would still go 

496
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,160
back into environments that were
chipping away at their 

497
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:33,040
confidence that could be quite 
toxic, quite, quite challenging.

498
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:40,080
And then we kind of come into 
this area of resilience, which I

499
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:45,920
think can sometimes get played 
as like a bit of an excuse in, 

500
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,680
in, in certain industries or in 
certain environments of, well, 

501
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,400
if you can't handle this, it's 
because you're not resilient 

502
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,160
enough. 
So I think there is an overlap 

503
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,440
with confidence and 
self-confidence then. 

504
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,880
But ultimately, I think actually
if this is an environmental 

505
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,720
factor, then we can't put it all
down to individuals, 

506
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,880
particularly individuals that 
have differing backgrounds, 

507
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:12,520
different lived experiences. 
And when they're facing these 

508
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:17,600
challenges, that is all on them.
So, yeah, so that's, that's the 

509
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:22,240
experiences that I've seen. 
And I think that confidence that

510
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:29,800
comes up can often put certain 
people from taking the 

511
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,520
opportunities. 
It can often be a blocker of 

512
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,200
going for the opportunity even 
in the 1st place or because they

513
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:41,920
have time and time again, but 
their experiences have haven't 

514
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:43,880
succeeded in the way that they 
wanted to. 

515
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,720
So that ultimately that 
resilience or or those 

516
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,080
experiences take that knock on 
confidence. 

517
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,280
It was interesting for you to 
say that it can be easy for an 

518
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,920
organisation to blame the 
individual and say you're not 

519
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,240
resilient enough and put the 
onus on them to do something 

520
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,760
about it or make them feel that 
they're failing to do something,

521
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:04,560
although that's strong enough. 
They don't have enough 

522
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:06,520
resilience for us. 
In fact, it can be an 

523
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:10,040
organisation or structural 
saying that's gone wrong. 

524
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:16,080
It's not going right. 
So what if you're a manager of a

525
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:22,560
team and you want to make sure 
that the people on your team do 

526
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:27,680
have healthy levels of 
self-confidence or give them 

527
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,320
more confidence than they 
actually have because they owe 

528
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,200
it to themselves to have that 
confidence. 

529
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:34,840
What? 
I haven't asked this question of

530
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,640
anyone, but how? 
What's your responsibility as a 

531
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,600
manager, as a people manager 
towards that and how Have you 

532
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,040
got any tips on how to make that
happen? 

533
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,960
How do you boost other people's 
confidence? 

534
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,600
Oh, I love that question. 
I think as a line manager, 

535
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:58,360
you've got so much weight as as 
somebody who can influence 

536
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,520
somebody's career, both in kind 
of building somebody's 

537
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,400
confidence, but also their 
experiences and being able to 

538
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,480
open doors for for them 
potentially. 

539
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:15,480
I think a skill that isn't as 
strong as it could be in a lot 

540
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,960
of our line managers is around 
giving constructive feedback. 

541
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:27,520
And that can be to that can fall
into like A2 fold challenge of 

542
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,920
being able to give constructive 
feedback that can actually be 

543
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:36,680
critical, but actually be good 
for somebody to help develop 

544
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,960
areas where it would be really 
good for them to develop and be 

545
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,440
very specific with that. 
So it's an area that actually 

546
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,320
they can take on board and take 
forward if they choose to. 

547
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,360
And if they see that, that's in 
benefit of their career and 

548
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,560
performance as well. 
So sometimes it's about actually

549
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,280
that kind of sometime more 
critical element that can be 

550
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,880
missing. 
And again, we do see some trends

551
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:05,680
in some of the research which 
say actually for women, and they

552
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,560
tend to not always get that or 
it tends to be less often that 

553
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,920
they're getting that kind of 
constructive, useful feedback. 

554
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,720
That's really specific. 
I know in my experience, I 

555
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,720
tried, I at one point put myself
forward for a promotion and just

556
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:22,720
to be on the path. 
And I was like, OK, what do I 

557
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,200
need to be doing to get myself 
on that path? 

558
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,120
And I got told I wasn't ready 
and that actually really 

559
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,960
impacted my confidence, not 
because I wasn't ready, but when

560
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,160
I tried to unpick that feedback 
of like, OK, what do I need to 

561
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,720
do to get ready? 
I just wasn't being met with 

562
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:43,360
anything that was that I could 
grasp or understand or put into 

563
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,960
action. 
And so for me that meant, OK, I 

564
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,800
just won't apply again. 
I'm just not going to go for it.

565
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,240
I think the other part can be 
actually when we make mistakes 

566
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:58,400
or we take risks that don't work
out or there are like failures 

567
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:05,760
and in like positive cultures, 
actually it's not always 

568
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:07,600
possible. 
But in positive cultures where 

569
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,840
it's as far as it's possible, 
that can be encouraged. 

570
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:12,400
I mean, like it's OK to take a 
risk. 

571
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,520
It's OK to foul a measured risk,
a calculated risk. 

572
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,600
And that as a line manager, 
we'll scoop you up and rebuild 

573
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,960
you and rebuild your confidence,
but also you took a chance that 

574
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,960
you thought would work and that 
could be a really positive 

575
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,600
things. 
But in environments where that's

576
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:35,040
not possible or the culture 
doesn't support that, then 

577
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,080
taking then it can actually make
people more risk averse because 

578
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,160
they're really worried about 
taking that step and getting it 

579
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,560
wrong. 
And actually, if they do make a 

580
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,680
step and it doesn't quite work 
out perfectly, what would be the

581
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,840
consequences then? 
So as line managers, can we give

582
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,360
support? 
Can we support people to build 

583
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:58,840
their confidence to take 
calculated, measured risks and 

584
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,720
support them whether that works 
or whether that doesn't? 

585
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:07,720
And again, we can get gender and
race differences here because in

586
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:12,560
my, my own, my own research that
I was doing, it came up in some 

587
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,480
of the conversations and 
discussions around, well, 

588
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,840
actually, I was particularly 
working with women from 

589
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:21,600
underrepresented ethnic 
backgrounds. 

590
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,880
And they were saying we can't 
afford to take the risks that 

591
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,480
our white male peers can. 
Because if they, because they 

592
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,639
have this really big support 
network around them and if their

593
00:34:31,639 --> 00:34:34,679
risk didn't pay off, they still 
end up getting promoted. 

594
00:34:34,679 --> 00:34:38,920
And if our risk didn't pay off, 
then we are like the bottom of 

595
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,000
the barrel and we're overlooked 
forevermore. 

596
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,960
So again, it can be a culture 
piece, but actually as line 

597
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,679
managers we can play a big role 
in supporting people and then 

598
00:34:48,679 --> 00:34:53,000
that feeds into self-confidence.
I, I that's, that's fantastic. 

599
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,840
Thank you. 
Was there anything else you 

600
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:57,520
wanted to add before you wrap 
up? 

601
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:03,400
I think one of the biggest 
things that come comes up for me

602
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,280
when I'm doing work around 
leadership, particularly with 

603
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,760
women, particularly with women 
from underrepresented 

604
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,560
ethnicities, is, is 
self-confidence, as we've said, 

605
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,840
but very closely linked to it is
quite challenging experiences 

606
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:23,360
and this idea of all this 
experience of feeling alone in 

607
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,360
that. 
So for me, the big thing that I 

608
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,280
think it's really important to 
communicate is that when we're 

609
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,400
going through those challenging 
experiences, we can absolutely 

610
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,680
feel alone. 
And then that is a thing that 

611
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,800
will directly impact and erode 
our self-confidence. 

612
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,040
But know that you're not alone, 
even if it feels like that's 

613
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,240
what is like in your 
environment. 

614
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,200
And reach out to people, get 
support, reach out and build 

615
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:55,080
your networks, your peers, your 
friendships and be supported. 

616
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,320
And that's going to feed into 
yourself confidence as well. 

617
00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:03,000
So, as Anita says, our 
self-confidence can be boosted 

618
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,920
by feeling supported by a 
network or a team of people 

619
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,320
invested in us. 
In fact, asking for feedback on 

620
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:11,680
your performance in situations 
where you feel low 

621
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,400
self-confidence can make all the
difference, says Inga Beale, Ex,

622
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,240
CEO of Lloyds of London, who 
shares that she has had to 

623
00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:20,720
contend with loaf of 
self-confidence throughout her 

624
00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:23,120
career. 
Inga, welcome to the OPM 

625
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:24,680
podcast. 
Thank you for your time. 

626
00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:27,400
Thank you, it's so good to join 
you today. 

627
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:32,320
The first question I had for you
was around your own personal 

628
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,600
levels of self-confidence, how 
that has been over your career. 

629
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,000
Have you ever struggled with it,
when and why? 

630
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,200
And just to give listeners 
background, you you have worked 

631
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:46,000
in a kind of male dominated 
company throughout your career. 

632
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,800
So I don't know whether that's 
had an an impact or anything. 

633
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,400
So yeah, how's, how's yourself 
confidence been over the years? 

634
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,720
Well, actually I'm going to go 
back to before I even started 

635
00:36:56,720 --> 00:37:02,960
work when I was school teenager,
I didn't, I was so under 

636
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:07,360
confident about most things. 
And you know, the teacher, say 

637
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,400
the English teacher wanted me to
read out something, you know, go

638
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,200
up in front of the class and 
read a passage or a poet piece 

639
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,400
of poetry. 
And I didn't want to, I was so 

640
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:20,000
nervous and under confidence. 
So I know that that started with

641
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:24,080
me when I was at school still. 
And then when I got to the world

642
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,840
of work, yes, I was surrounded 
by men. 

643
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,120
I, there was me and sort of 34 
men in the in the office when I 

644
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:34,120
started. 
And as was my way of coping was 

645
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:35,640
because I didn't want to be 
different. 

646
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:41,040
I just tried to be like them, 
which did mean that I probably 

647
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:47,240
came across as quite confident, 
but deep down I wasn't. 

648
00:37:47,240 --> 00:37:50,640
So I would, I would sort of 
perhaps joke with them and, and 

649
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,880
try and be like one of the lads.
And I think that hid the lack of

650
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,440
confidence that I had. 
So I, I had that definitely when

651
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,480
I started at work. 
But the slightly sad thing is it

652
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,080
never really left me. 
So I couldn't do stages of my 

653
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:09,600
career where at times and in 
particular moments and 

654
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,720
particular experiences, I would 
be full of confidence. 

655
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,440
But I could tell you if I go 
from the sort of beginning of my

656
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,560
career and then I go to the end,
the last CEO role I had as the 

657
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,520
CEO of Lloyds, there I was, I 
would made it to the sort of the

658
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:27,120
pinnacle of insurance. 
And yet I could go into a room 

659
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:33,640
of my peers, other CEOs from 
around the world of insurers, 

660
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,320
they would all be men. 
And my confidence would 

661
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:41,920
disappear again. 
And I would feel like I was when

662
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,480
I was young. 
And the way I sort of coped with

663
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,840
that was just tell myself sort 
of to be angry with myself to 

664
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,320
say, look, come on, you're the 
CEO of Lloyds, you deserve to be

665
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,120
here. 
But this confidence thing, I, I 

666
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,280
can tell you there've been 
moments throughout my career 

667
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,560
when I felt really 
underconfident, but there, there

668
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:05,360
were a few particular things 
that that helped me get over 

669
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,200
particular, you know, if I said 
no to something or I was 

670
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,320
particularly nervous about 
something, I, you know, I did, I

671
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,040
did get better at it. 
But it's amazing, this lack of 

672
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,960
confidence, which I think can 
can stop when you're still at 

673
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,880
school. 
But so was was one of your ways 

674
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:24,240
of managing yourself confidence 
and faking it until you felt 

675
00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:26,520
that confidence so just to get 
you going. 

676
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:31,800
In a way it was. 
And I remember when I, I used to

677
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,040
play rugby and I think when I 
started work, you see, I used to

678
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,360
be in this environment during 
the day and then I used to go 

679
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:41,160
off and do my sport. 
And when I was playing sport, I 

680
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,160
was with all, all my friends and
nobody cared about your 

681
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,040
background or what you did for a
job. 

682
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:47,680
You know, you were just there 
playing sport. 

683
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,800
And that, that was my sort of 
escapism and I think that helped

684
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,560
me keep going. 
But I do also remember the first

685
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:59,520
time I was going to give a 
speech at work and. 

686
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:01,920
But it was A at a paid 
conference. 

687
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,560
In other words, people were 
paying to go to this conference 

688
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:06,160
and there I was. 
I wasn't being paid. 

689
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,720
It was part of my job and I 
thought, Oh my goodness, I've 

690
00:40:09,720 --> 00:40:13,840
got to get up on this stage. 
And I was so nervous. 

691
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,120
I practise and practise and 
because I was playing rugby at 

692
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,920
the time, I really hoped that I 
would have a big serious injury 

693
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:20,000
so I wouldn't actually have to 
do. 

694
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:22,280
I was. 
It was that bad. 

695
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,720
That's bad. 
Fish farming conference and 

696
00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:28,840
there were these burly fishermen
there and I thought, well, I 

697
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:30,760
don't. 
And I had to talk about insuring

698
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:32,640
fish farms, which I didn't 
really know that much. 

699
00:40:33,240 --> 00:40:35,240
I had to show confidence and I 
thought, Oh my gosh. 

700
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:39,080
So I kind of, I found myself 
when I got onto the stage. 

701
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,800
I think it's probably perhaps 
what actors do. 

702
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:47,040
I, I sort of acted in a way and,
and, and I at the end of my 

703
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,800
speech, I got some compliments, 
but in a way I didn't recognise 

704
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:53,720
that that was me on the stage. 
Afterwards I thought, how did 

705
00:40:53,720 --> 00:40:55,280
those words come out of my 
mouth? 

706
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,120
It was as though someone had 
taken over. 

707
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:02,840
So it was a bit like acting in 
that regard, yes, you know. 

708
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,600
Is that is that? 
Have you got any tips around 

709
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,560
building yourself confidence? 
Or. 

710
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,720
Or giving yourself a beast when 
you most need it. 

711
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,760
Yeah. 
Well, I, I also got promoted or 

712
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,040
a promotion. 
I'd been working for 12 years 

713
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:25,440
and I was promoted and or I was,
I was told I was going to be 

714
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,520
promoted and I was going to move
up, take my boss's job. 

715
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:30,880
He was going to move off to the 
side and be a peer of mine. 

716
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,160
And I was going to manage a team
of three people. 

717
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:37,080
So it wasn't a big team. 
I said no to that promotion 

718
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:39,560
because I didn't have the 
confidence. 

719
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,680
I don't know whether it was that
I thought I wasn't good enough 

720
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:46,160
for the job, but it was almost 
as though I thought I'm going to

721
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,360
go up and now I'm going to have 
to get on with my ex boss who's 

722
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:51,560
now my peer and what's he going 
to think of me here with all 

723
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,960
these things inside my head? 
So I actually said no to the 

724
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:59,000
promotion and then the firm 
helped me. 

725
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,880
So my employer helped me a lot 
and surrounded me and asked what

726
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:03,000
what do you want? 
What do you need? 

727
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,920
And I actually went on a course 
called Assertiveness for Women. 

728
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,040
I don't I don't think in mount 
that exist today. 

729
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,320
This was in the 90s, but I found
it. 

730
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,320
It was a week long course and my
employer said yes, go on it. 

731
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:16,440
And that I was there with seven 
other women. 

732
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,000
And it was a very deep and 
meaningful week. 

733
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:23,840
And actually I came out of it 
understanding myself much more, 

734
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,920
having had lots of feedback 
about me. 

735
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,800
And on the Monday morning when I
got back to work, I went into my

736
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:32,600
boss's office. 
I said I'll take the job, Thank 

737
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:34,360
you. 
And that was the first step on 

738
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:36,560
the credit. 
And that course actually helped 

739
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,480
me a lot. 
And when I look back, what I 

740
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,440
think it was is you, you 
practised a lot, you, you had to

741
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:46,080
present to other people. 
But the big thing was that you 

742
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,600
actually got lots of feedback 
about you. 

743
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,720
You were sort of telling people,
sharing people how you saw 

744
00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:55,120
yourself or how you, how you 
were feeling. 

745
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,120
And they said, but we don't see 
you like that. 

746
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,920
We see you like this. 
And I think that feedback is an 

747
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:06,360
important part, how you can get 
confident because you have done 

748
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,320
something as one would say, oh, 
that was brilliant. 

749
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,320
And you might not have felt it, 
but they will say no, no, no, it

750
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,800
was really good in Ukraine 
across like this and that. 

751
00:43:14,240 --> 00:43:16,640
And so feedback I think is an 
important part. 

752
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:21,880
But also I did learn if I was 
going into a very difficult 

753
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,040
situation, maybe a big meeting 
or I had to give a presentation,

754
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:30,600
I was very nervous about it. 
I would make give myself a goal 

755
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,560
and and nobody else was sort of 
measuring me against this goal. 

756
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,040
But I would say right, Inger, I 
want you to say these three 

757
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:38,560
things. 
I want you to talk for at least 

758
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:40,680
10 minutes or so. 
And then afterwards, I would 

759
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,080
sort of say to myself, you 
didn't do that very well or you 

760
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:44,440
did that brilliantly. 
Well done. 

761
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:48,120
And it gave me a sort of focus 
in the meeting to think not 

762
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:51,840
about my nerves, but about what 
I had set myself as a target to 

763
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:53,320
achieve. 
Yeah. 

764
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,280
So that was that was that was 
really helpful. 

765
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:59,320
And, and I tell you after that, 
saying no to that promotion, I 

766
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,760
never said no to another job 
offer, however scary it seemed, 

767
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,080
because it really helped this 
practise, you know, once you've 

768
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,200
done something once and you 
realise, wow, this is pretty 

769
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,880
cool, I can do this. 
It it helps, you know, there's 

770
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,360
nothing like practising. 
And in sport, we practise a lot.

771
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:18,880
Yeah. 
You catch us all the time doing 

772
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,160
moves and things. 
You get to work. 

773
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:22,840
You don't really get to practise
so much. 

774
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,840
You're meant to just do 
something you know the first 

775
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,800
time around without practising, 
but it's really, really 

776
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,720
practising the repetition that 
can help give you confidence in 

777
00:44:31,720 --> 00:44:35,760
all sorts of situations. 
So what about the times when you

778
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:39,080
have a set back when something 
went wrong unexpectedly? 

779
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,240
Everyone faces those kind of 
bumps in the road. 

780
00:44:42,240 --> 00:44:46,840
So how do you pick yourself up 
then to then I know something 

781
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,240
terrible happens in the morning 
at work and you really feel 

782
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:53,320
you've failed, but then you know
you've got the rest of the day 

783
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:55,880
day to continue with. 
So how, how? 

784
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,280
What do you do in those 
situations? 

785
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:04,240
I think I'm pretty good at 
compartmentalising things. 

786
00:45:05,240 --> 00:45:08,040
So for instance, if I, if 
something messed up in the, in 

787
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:11,520
the early morning at work and 
I'd done something really badly,

788
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,000
I would, I would be able to sort
of put it in a little box, carry

789
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,400
on with the rest of the day, 
then go home that evening. 

790
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:22,960
Then think about it again, go 
and sort of think what, how did 

791
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,920
I mess that up so badly? 
What, what, what was I thinking?

792
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:31,160
But then once I've sort of gone 
into really critical mode on 

793
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:37,440
myself about messing up, I go to
bed, I sleep well and the next 

794
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:39,600
morning I've completely 
forgotten about it. 

795
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,520
So, so I've, I've been always 
quite good at doing that so that

796
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,600
I don't, things don't linger 
with me for very long. 

797
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,600
I try not to dwell on them. 
Now, how you teach yourself to 

798
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,800
do that if it doesn't come 
naturally, I don't really know. 

799
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,600
But that and there might be 
other people who are, who are, 

800
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:00,600
who are actually skilled in 
this, who can actually teach 

801
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:03,360
people to do this. 
But to me, I have that ability 

802
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,440
to do to do that. 
And that meant if I messed up 

803
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,040
the day before, it would have by
the time I got up the next 

804
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,480
morning, I would have usually it
wasn't going to affect me. 

805
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:13,240
I was it was over. 
I'd done it. 

806
00:46:13,240 --> 00:46:18,800
I'd messed up, chastised myself.
But then it was over and and I 

807
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:21,880
was on to the next day. 
So maybe it's leaving some time 

808
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:26,400
for reflection on what, what 
went wrong and then you you've 

809
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:28,720
done that bit, you've worked 
through it and you think, OK, 

810
00:46:28,720 --> 00:46:30,840
I'll do it differently next time
perhaps. 

811
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,680
Yes, yes, always trying to think
what could I have done 

812
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:38,800
differently, make myself more 
prepared because sometimes it's,

813
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:41,800
I mean, sometimes you can lack 
confidence because you haven't 

814
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,640
had enough time to prepare for 
something. 

815
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:48,680
That's also another reason. 
And that's usually because we've

816
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,480
got this pressure of work and, 
and maybe we've got something 

817
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,280
going on in our personal life 
that we haven't freed up our 

818
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:56,920
calendar enough to actually have
some prep time. 

819
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:00,800
And I've always found that's the
most important thing. 

820
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:02,600
Make sure you're getting enough 
sleep and make sure you have 

821
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:04,120
enough prep time for these 
things. 

822
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:07,440
Because rather than fill your 
day, you know, with back-to-back

823
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:12,360
meetings, which I know sometimes
people can't control as Aceo, 

824
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:14,760
obviously it's a little bit 
different, although I hardly had

825
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,560
any time to myself. 
But you know, I think, well, 

826
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:19,600
it's your boss always wanting 
this, that and the other. 

827
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:22,760
And it's a bit more difficult, 
but really try and free up that 

828
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:26,280
time so that you you feel you've
got a little bit of time to 

829
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:28,480
prepare before you going into a 
situation. 

830
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:31,560
Thank you, Inga. 
What? 

831
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:35,040
Advice would you give to people 
who are struggling with their 

832
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:37,120
self-confidence? 
I mean you've given plenty of 

833
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:38,800
advice already, but is there 
anything? 

834
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,480
If you could say something 
directly to them, what what 

835
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,640
might you say? 
Yeah, well, there is something 

836
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:49,320
about believe in your own 
ability because sometimes we 

837
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,800
just we doubt all of the things 
that we can do. 

838
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,680
So then you take time to I know 
I can do this. 

839
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:58,040
And then you think back, Oh yes,
I did that really well. 

840
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,760
I did this really well. 
So you must take time when 

841
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,920
something's gone well to 
actually say well done me and 

842
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:07,720
reflect on actually that you did
well and say I do have that 

843
00:48:07,720 --> 00:48:12,040
capability. 
I can do that and and use that 

844
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,280
for for the next time. 
But The thing is that, you know,

845
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:20,560
for me, if when I was that young
Inga starting work, I did not 

846
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,760
believe in my ability, you know,
I just didn't. 

847
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:28,600
So again, have a, you know, have
your manager or a peer or 

848
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:31,680
someone who, who, who knows what
you're, how you're working or 

849
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:34,200
what you're doing just to give 
you some feedback, to give you 

850
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:39,200
some boutique and some perhaps 
some positive constructive 

851
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:42,280
feedback as well. 
You know, so not, not everything

852
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:44,760
is just wonderful in your grade.
I mean, to me, I think it's much

853
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,720
better to have some realistic 
feedback, but you know, give you

854
00:48:47,720 --> 00:48:50,480
some few, few really positive 
tips, but also then just say a 

855
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:52,640
few things you can work on 
because that also once you've 

856
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,840
had time to reflect on that, it 
can really help you get over 

857
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:58,120
perhaps some issues that you 
know you have. 

858
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:00,600
Don't don't waste time getting 
feedback. 

859
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,440
That's just all about what a 
fantastic job you've done. 

860
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:05,160
You know, it needs to be really 
real. 

861
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,440
I found that's the best. 
Thanks, Singer. 

862
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:11,560
There's a kind of follow up 
question to that, which would be

863
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:15,840
any advice to managers and 
leaders on making sure that 

864
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:19,400
their team members feel as 
confident as they can. 

865
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:23,320
Or if you notice A-Team member 
lacking in self-confidence, how 

866
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:26,360
how do you kind of approach that
in the right way? 

867
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,440
Well, if it's in a team 
environment and you, and you see

868
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:34,720
that someone is, is really a bit
nervous and often it can come 

869
00:49:34,720 --> 00:49:37,600
out, somebody might speak, but 
you can hardly hear them because

870
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,320
they also think they're speaking
loudly, but they're not. 

871
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:41,680
And then nobody can really hear 
them. 

872
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:43,920
And then someone speaks over 
them and then they get even 

873
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:47,600
more, you know, nervous the next
time and they're lacking common 

874
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:49,280
as you know, and they can all 
sort of build up. 

875
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:52,720
So as a, as a manager in a team 
environment, and this can be a 

876
00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:55,200
virtual or a physical 
environment, it doesn't matter. 

877
00:49:55,680 --> 00:50:00,120
But if you do know someone who 
lacks confidence or knows that 

878
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,680
there is someone who doesn't 
usually speak, please make sure 

879
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:06,200
they have the time to do it. 
And the way I think it's, it's 

880
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,960
best to do it, It's not to when 
you're so you've, you know, 

881
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:11,200
someone's just said something. 
Well, that's a really great 

882
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:14,080
point. 
But I think so and so has 

883
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:17,160
something really good to say 
because I know that they've got 

884
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:19,560
this experience. 
So you, you give them a little 

885
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,480
bit of warm up time before they 
are to come in. 

886
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:24,960
You know, you don't just say, 
oh, what do you think of this? 

887
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:27,720
You sort of build them up a bit.
I know you've got some 

888
00:50:27,720 --> 00:50:29,400
information. 
I know you've been working on 

889
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:31,480
this. 
We'd love to hear some views 

890
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:34,040
from you so that you're giving 
them a little bit of time for 

891
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:36,560
their brain to go, Oh my 
goodness, my manager's just 

892
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:38,160
asking me to speak. 
I've got to speak on this. 

893
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:42,600
The manager can do that and it's
very, very helpful so that 

894
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:44,600
you're not putting people 
immediately on the spot and 

895
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:46,440
they're all, you're already 
getting this slightly warm 

896
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,040
feeling because they're already 
giving you some compliments 

897
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:51,760
because they, they trust and 
they know you've got the right 

898
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:53,520
knowledge. 
So that's, that's one thing you 

899
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,560
can do in a, in an environment 
where there are several people 

900
00:50:57,200 --> 00:50:58,920
when you're just on your own 
with them. 

901
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:03,000
I think the best thing is to try
and listen to them to understand

902
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:06,360
and let them talk to you as to 
what it was that they were 

903
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:10,160
particularly nervous about what 
why were they showing a lack of 

904
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:13,560
confidence that day and see if 
you can help break that down. 

905
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:15,440
Now. 
This can take a long time. 

906
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,520
I said I got I always offered 
promotion and I said no. 

907
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:22,720
I have seen this throughout my 
career as I've got more senior. 

908
00:51:23,240 --> 00:51:26,880
They've been wonderful and she's
mainly the women I've I've 

909
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,760
rarely had to persuade a man to 
take a job, but women have tried

910
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,680
to promote them and they said 
no, it can't possibly. 

911
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:37,280
And then I've had to spend a lot
of time understanding what it is

912
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:39,760
that they think they can't do. 
Why are they lacking confidence?

913
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,840
Once it took me nearly a year to
get a woman to say yes to a job.

914
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:46,680
That's how long some of this 
stuff can take because it's 

915
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:52,000
there's so much in your head. 
But when she took it, she did a 

916
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:55,400
fantastic job and she looked, 
she said to me after she she 

917
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,080
started, she said, I do not know
why I didn't take it. 

918
00:51:58,240 --> 00:52:02,160
It's just I love this job. 
I'm good at it, you know, and 

919
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:04,600
it's fantastic. 
And so you do have to sometimes,

920
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:08,600
you know, jump in the deep end. 
Well, what a fantastic manager 

921
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,160
you are to spend a year 
persuading someone. 

922
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:12,640
A lot of people wouldn't do 
that. 

923
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:15,080
But that's, you know, I've been 
learning a lot about, you know, 

924
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:18,320
the coaching manager and that's,
and that's how you get the best 

925
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:19,880
from people if you believe in 
them. 

926
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:24,520
But Inga, was there any last 
pieces of advice you want to 

927
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:26,640
give? 
Or if there's one thing you'd 

928
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:29,560
like listeners to take away when
it comes to self-confidence, 

929
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:31,880
what might that be? 
Yeah. 

930
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:35,040
So there's confidence and it's 
maybe a lack of confidence in 

931
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:40,000
sort of taking a job, a lack of 
confidence in going and turning 

932
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:44,240
up to an even even a networking 
conference where you have to go 

933
00:52:44,240 --> 00:52:46,200
and say hello to people that you
don't know and things. 

934
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:48,880
That is all. 
There are many moments, you 

935
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:52,560
know, in in your life, but one 
of the things is, is often this 

936
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:57,000
public speaking which puts 
really can make people very, 

937
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:00,040
very nervous, even if it's not 
real public speaking, but it's 

938
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:04,840
even in an office environment. 
And I think the best way to do 

939
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:09,480
that is actually be videoed and 
practise and practise because 

940
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:12,480
you'd be amazed if you actually 
watch yourself on the video. 

941
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:17,200
You get your little tips and if 
you can't afford to have a 

942
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:20,680
professional do a little session
with you, you know, for a couple

943
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:25,360
of hours, it's, it's so helpful 
because once you actually see 

944
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:29,960
how you are speaking, you think,
oh gosh, yes, I'm, I'm actually 

945
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:31,680
quite good at that, aren't I 
always? 

946
00:53:31,720 --> 00:53:34,560
I know the fact quite well, but 
if you and any little floor 

947
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,680
faults you have, you also see 
them and then you can improve. 

948
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:40,640
So there is nothing like, I 
mean, usually it's called sort 

949
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:44,640
of media training or whatever it
is, but nothing like doing a bit

950
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:47,240
of that, not in a real 
environment, but certainly with 

951
00:53:47,240 --> 00:53:50,440
somebody videoing you or you can
even video yourself these days, 

952
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:53,280
you know, using your computer 
and then watch yourself 

953
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:55,000
afterwards. 
Most people hate it. 

954
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:57,200
They always say they cringe, 
they don't want to see 

955
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,840
themselves in video. 
But it's a really great way of 

956
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:02,600
gaining confidence. 
I think that's a great tip if 

957
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:05,360
you're brave enough to do it and
then practise and then, like you

958
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:08,640
say, you'll reap the rewards. 
Inga, that just leaves me to say

959
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:12,120
thank you so much for your time.
Some great advice that I'm sure 

960
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:14,680
listeners will appreciate. 
So thank you again. 

961
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:17,480
Well, thanks Emma. 
Thanks for having me. 

962
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:21,720
Thanks again to Inga, Anita and 
Muriel for joining us and to you

963
00:54:21,720 --> 00:54:23,560
for listening to the APM 
podcast. 

964
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:26,680
I hope you've left with some 
helpful advice to help you in 

965
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:30,520
those low confidence moments and
feel reassured that even CEO's 

966
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:33,880
suffer from it too. 
So don't forget to look out for 

967
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:36,640
more episodes or to rating 
reviews wherever you get your 

968
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:38,920
podcasts. 
We'd welcome you to get in touch

969
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:42,120
with your comments, feedback and
suggestions by emailing us at 

970
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:47,800
apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk.
Spotify and YouTube users, 

971
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:49,640
please do also leave us your 
comments. 

972
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:53,760
This podcast has been brought to
you by APM, the chartered body 

973
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:56,880
for the project profession. 
For more information on APM, 

974
00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:59,200
visit apm.org.uk.