1
00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,720
Welcome to the APM podcast. 
APM is the childhood body for 

2
00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,720
the project profession. 
My name is Emma Davidson. 

3
00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:24,520
I'm the editor of Project, APM's
quarterly journal and your host 

4
00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:29,160
today's podcast is with Joanna 
Rowland, chief Executive of the 

5
00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:34,160
animal welfare charity, the 
RSPCA dedicated OPM Podcast 

6
00:00:34,160 --> 00:00:36,880
Listeners might remember my 
previous interview with her in 

7
00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,960
2020 during the pandemic, when 
she was director of HMRC's 

8
00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,440
COVID-19 Response Unit, 
responsible for helping 

9
00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:47,800
mastermind the UK government's 
furlough scheme, and where she 

10
00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,080
was also head of the project 
management profession. 

11
00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:52,640
A lot has changed for Jo since 
then. 

12
00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,240
She rose the ranks of the civil 
service, leaving project 

13
00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,920
management behind her to become 
Director General of the UK Home 

14
00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:03,880
Office, before joining the RSPCA
in December 2025 as CEO. 

15
00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,640
I wanted to catch up with her to
find out what it's like to be a 

16
00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,960
first time CEO, why project 
management is the perfect 

17
00:01:10,960 --> 00:01:13,960
training for the role, why 
project managers need to set 

18
00:01:13,960 --> 00:01:16,840
their sights higher, and her 
advice to getting to the 

19
00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,680
C-Suite. 
Thank you, Joe welcome to the 

20
00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:21,720
APM. 
Welcome back to the APM podcast.

21
00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:23,880
It's nice to see you again. 
Thank. 

22
00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:26,800
You. 
So last time we spoke you at the

23
00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:33,000
HMRC and now you've been in post
as chief executive of the RSPCA 

24
00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,880
since December. 
So three months, yeah, three 

25
00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:40,240
month anniversary has passed. 
I've done my 100 days, the 

26
00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:43,280
magical 100 days, Yeah. 
And how's? 

27
00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:45,840
How's it been going? 
Tell us a bit about your role 

28
00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:50,160
and, and what you're kind of 
areas of responsibility are 

29
00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:54,920
right now and and kind of like 
what you'd like to achieve as 

30
00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,480
chief exec. 
Yeah. 

31
00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:02,560
So it's my first ever Chief exec
role and it's my first role in 

32
00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:08,000
the third sector. 
So all very, very exciting, but 

33
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,920
it's sort of in a way it brings 
together lots of aspects that 

34
00:02:11,920 --> 00:02:15,280
I've done in the past from, you 
know, a bit of tech and all the 

35
00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,360
tech projects I've done, the 
leadership, the finance, 

36
00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,520
etcetera. 
So, so it feels both strangely 

37
00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,280
familiar and very new at the 
same time. 

38
00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,440
But I mean, the main things for 
me, I this is such an amazing 

39
00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,880
charity. 
I describe it as inheriting A 

40
00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,760
stately home. 
You don't, you don't really own 

41
00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,160
it. 
You just are the custodian for 

42
00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,520
that generation. 
And then you've got to try and 

43
00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:42,600
hand it off to the future 
generations in a better state 

44
00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,120
than you found it. 
And so for me, a better state 

45
00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,680
for the RSPCA is One Financial 
resilience. 

46
00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,880
It's really hard out there for 
charities right now. 

47
00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,440
So and everyone thinks animal 
welfare charities are really 

48
00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:56,720
well funded. 
It's hard. 

49
00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,240
So, so definitely financial 
resilience, but more than 

50
00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,880
anything it's just it's making a
real difference to animals and 

51
00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:08,320
that's not just about our rescue
side, it's also about sort of 

52
00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:12,840
advocacy, prevention and 
changing things like food and 

53
00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,840
farming practises. 
So, high ambition, lots to do. 

54
00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,080
Was it a place you'd always 
wanted to work for? 

55
00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:23,680
Is animal wear first thought 
you've always there's been close

56
00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:25,520
to your heart? 
I mean, it'd be interesting to 

57
00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:30,800
know how the job came about and 
whether it was always your 

58
00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,280
ambition to get to the very top 
of an organisation. 

59
00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,320
I've always wanted to run my own
organisation. 

60
00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,440
I've always wanted that, you 
know, and it's, I describe it as

61
00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:45,240
so you get the whole train set 
to, to play with, as it were. 

62
00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:51,320
And that's, that's more about 
because it's about inspiring and

63
00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:55,680
leading a whole organisation. 
So that's definitely been the 

64
00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,760
ambition. 
I didn't think for a minute it I

65
00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,760
would be lucky enough to do this
role. 

66
00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,920
And it's only when headhunters 
came knocking, I wasn't even 

67
00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:08,560
looking to leave, leave the 
civil service. 

68
00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,920
But when they came knocking and 
it was the RSPCA, it was heart 

69
00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:16,920
and head both said yes, yes, 
let's do this. 

70
00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,120
It was, I have to say it was a 
bit of a heart wrench to leave 

71
00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,920
the civil service. 
I, you know, it's a great place,

72
00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,680
but I'm loving every minute of 
it here. 

73
00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,920
It sounds like you are in a 
place where you really want to 

74
00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,520
be and interesting that it's 
always been your ambition to 

75
00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:39,520
lead an organisation, which is 
something that I'm keen to dive 

76
00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,680
into a little bit because you 
come up through project 

77
00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:45,920
management. 
Last time we spoke, I think you 

78
00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:51,320
were Chief Transformation 
Director General at HMRC and 

79
00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,560
you've been working, yeah, 
you've been working on the 

80
00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,760
furlough scheme, which seems 
like a very long time ago now. 

81
00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:02,840
But we're we're we're speaking 
to project professionals. 

82
00:05:02,840 --> 00:05:06,040
And I think there is a real 
shift in upwards in ambition 

83
00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,560
that there is real credibility 
in project management as a 

84
00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:10,360
profession. 
That is something that can take 

85
00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:12,720
you right to the top of 
organisation. 

86
00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:16,800
And those I've spoken to have 
been on that journey say that 

87
00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,200
one of the absolute benefits of 
working project management is 

88
00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:25,520
that you get oversight of the 
entire kind of process of an 

89
00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:27,560
organisation of all the 
stakeholders. 

90
00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:29,360
And that's something that's 
invaluable. 

91
00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:34,440
So how did you how how have you 
gotten to where you are through 

92
00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:39,560
project management and what have
been the advantages that it's? 

93
00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:44,560
Brought you so. 
So first of all, I really 

94
00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,680
resonate with that you know that
you get the oversight, the whole

95
00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,280
process, you in project 
management, you are, you are 

96
00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:56,880
overseeing the entire enterprise
from the vision, the goal 

97
00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:03,160
setting, motivating a team, 
building a team, communication, 

98
00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:09,200
you know, projects do or die on 
communication obviously budget 

99
00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,080
setting all the time, risk 
management, stakeholder 

100
00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,840
management, all the things that 
I'm now doing as ACEO. 

101
00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,080
That is what you do as a, you 
know, major programme director. 

102
00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:25,840
So in terms of skill set, it 
really, really sets you up well.

103
00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:28,440
The other thing I found 
particularly in government 

104
00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:33,480
project management is you do 
some massive scale of things, 

105
00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,720
you know, like making tax 
digitals, multi multi billion 

106
00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,280
pounds. 
Some of the projects running in 

107
00:06:39,280 --> 00:06:42,040
the Home Office, multi billion 
pounds stuff. 

108
00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,400
I'd love to be in the billion 
pounds in charity. 

109
00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:52,040
We're not quite at that scale of
money, but no, it it really does

110
00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:54,880
have some parallels. 
So you are able to demonstrate 

111
00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:59,120
both the skill set but also the 
scale that many CVS can't. 

112
00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:03,320
What have been the major 
differences between moving from 

113
00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:08,080
civil service to something like 
a a charity? 

114
00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,160
So working in the public sector,
what's kind of unique about it? 

115
00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:16,680
Does it bring additional kind of
financial responsibility you're 

116
00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,200
answering to different 
stakeholders? 

117
00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,280
Is there anything that you've 
particularly noticed? 

118
00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:28,240
Yeah. 
So a couple of observations, 1st

119
00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,840
of what the buck genuinely stops
with you here. 

120
00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,240
You know, so although there is a
board and essentially actually 

121
00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:39,360
the trustees on the board are 
responsible for a charity, the 

122
00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:43,520
level of day-to-day decision 
making that you do as a chief 

123
00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:48,560
exec and a charity is far and 
beyond the decision making you 

124
00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:52,840
do as a DG. 
So for example, what pay rises 

125
00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:58,600
everybody gets, what reward 
package you might give people. 

126
00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:03,000
There be decisions about whether
to release certain comms. 

127
00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:08,200
Whereas in the civil service, 
although the scale and the risk 

128
00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:14,960
that you're managing as a DG is 
enormous and societal impact is 

129
00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:19,240
enormous, there are lots of 
things like you've still got #10

130
00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:21,560
saying whether your comms can go
out or not. 

131
00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:25,800
You'll have a corporate finance 
team somewhere worrying about 

132
00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:31,240
the financial solvency of of the
organisation. 

133
00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:36,039
So whereas as ACEO in the 
charity, all of that's on your 

134
00:08:36,039 --> 00:08:40,320
plate and you've got to, and you
are responsible for all of it, 

135
00:08:40,919 --> 00:08:46,520
which is both brilliant because 
back to the sort of, you know, 

136
00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:50,960
you've got all the levers of 
control to meet ambition, but 

137
00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:55,080
it's also quite daunting. 
And it isn't lost on me how much

138
00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,120
in a way how much more 
responsibility I feel in this 

139
00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:03,960
sector than I did in government.
The other observation I'd make 

140
00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:08,640
that's really quite different is
the role a board of trustees 

141
00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:13,360
plays to a charity is quite 
different than a board might 

142
00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:20,400
play to a government department.
And and that's and that's 

143
00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:24,080
different in some ways they're 
both more hands off and in some 

144
00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,800
ways they're more hands on. 
It's, it's a different, it's 

145
00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,960
just a different dynamic. 
So it's taken me a little while 

146
00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,040
to understand and get used to 
that. 

147
00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:34,640
I. 
Want to come back to what you 

148
00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,480
said before about communication,
which is a critical skill for 

149
00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:44,320
project professionals. 
What have you learnt from being 

150
00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:47,880
able to manage or communicate 
with different stakeholders 

151
00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:53,600
which who inevitably have 
competing priorities? 

152
00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:58,920
I mean it's partly about keeping
everyone happy, but what has 

153
00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:02,000
project management given you in 
terms of, I guess people skills?

154
00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:06,720
So kind of like covered of 
comms, but in terms of dealing 

155
00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:11,440
with stakeholders, stakeholder 
management, has there been any 

156
00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,560
lessons that project management 
has given you that you you're 

157
00:10:14,560 --> 00:10:17,160
now really kind of taking on as 
CEO? 

158
00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,600
Oh, loads. 
This is an area where that has a

159
00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,400
real overlap with project 
management. 

160
00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,560
So. 
So on the one hand, stakeholder 

161
00:10:27,560 --> 00:10:30,320
mapping, good old fashioned 
stakeholder understanding. 

162
00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:32,280
Who do I need? 
Who do I want? 

163
00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:36,680
Who who can accelerate me? 
Who can stop us? 

164
00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,920
You know that sort of good, good
understanding. 

165
00:10:41,680 --> 00:10:46,200
But I think the main thing 
project management does is is 

166
00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,800
taught me to really understand 
stakeholder expectations, 

167
00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,560
because no amount of 
communication that you do is 

168
00:10:54,560 --> 00:11:00,360
going to be effective if you are
communicating to an assumed 

169
00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,680
expectation. 
Whereas actually the reality is 

170
00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:05,760
the stakeholder's expecting 
something different. 

171
00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,800
And the other thing, like most 
communications about something 

172
00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:14,400
changing, even here, it could be
about we're changing our 

173
00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:18,520
strategy or, you know, we're 
we're want to change the 

174
00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:23,800
attitude to so and project 
management has taught me it for 

175
00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:28,000
humans change, it weirdly is all
about loss, even though the 

176
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,400
project's all about future and 
excitement and forward thinking.

177
00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,320
The psychology of change is all 
about loss. 

178
00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:39,600
So I, I've taken a lot of, find 
myself drawing on that an awful 

179
00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,800
lot when communicating with 
stakeholders in this role. 

180
00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,560
What about what project 
management doesn't give you? 

181
00:11:46,560 --> 00:11:50,920
So what does it take to break 
out of project management and 

182
00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:55,440
into a kind of senior leadership
role, senior executive role that

183
00:11:55,440 --> 00:12:01,920
is beyond that? 
Function so the number one thing

184
00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:07,040
here which I and I'm I'm 
laughing at myself as project 

185
00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:12,720
director you you your job is to 
control chaos, isn't it you like

186
00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,320
you start a project it's full of
unknowns and assumptions and as 

187
00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:20,360
you work through your lovely 
programme plan, you're gradually

188
00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:26,400
nailing down more and more 
certainty towards delivery and 

189
00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:31,560
and let's face it, I think most 
project managers we love a 

190
00:12:31,560 --> 00:12:35,280
little bit of control. 
We love our control frameworks 

191
00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:40,440
and whereas when you run a big 
organisation, you know, control 

192
00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:44,240
can be a bit of an illusion and 
plus you've got to be careful 

193
00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:50,880
not to stifle innovation. 
And so, so adapting, having a 

194
00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:59,080
different way into thinking 
about controls is quite 

195
00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,080
important because it would, 
whilst I'd feel lovely and 

196
00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,520
comfortable running an 
organisation with all the same 

197
00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,240
controls I would have put around
one of my programmes, the 

198
00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,280
reality is you, you can't do 
that. 

199
00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:12,840
It's it's got to be more 
nuanced. 

200
00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,080
Have you? 
Was that something you'd thought

201
00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,840
about before you'd moved into 
this role or went experience 

202
00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,560
that you picked up in your last 
role at HMRC? 

203
00:13:23,560 --> 00:13:26,600
Or is it something that, is it a
realisation that's happened 

204
00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:28,880
whilst you're actually been 
doing this role? 

205
00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:35,480
So it is to some extent A 
realisation coming into this 

206
00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,720
role. 
However, in between HMRC and 

207
00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:42,360
this I had a short time at the 
Home Office and. 

208
00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:44,480
Oh yes, you did. 
Yeah. 

209
00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:46,840
And that was in OPS rather than 
projects. 

210
00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:55,280
And so, so that that sort of 
was, was a transition between 

211
00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,600
the two worlds for me, which was
helpful, I think. 

212
00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,440
I think if I'd gone straight 
from project management to this,

213
00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:06,080
the shock would have been a bit 
harder. 

214
00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,920
Would you say that's a piece of 
advice you'd give to people? 

215
00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:14,160
It would be to come out maybe 
not saying that you took a 

216
00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,920
sideways move, but if you're 
quite senior within project 

217
00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,120
management that an opportunity 
comes up to gain experience of 

218
00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,760
operations or kind of business 
as usual that that might be 

219
00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,600
something valuable. 
Definitely. 

220
00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:34,320
I think it really, really helps 
to have run something rather 

221
00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:41,520
than build something. 
I think it's and because when 

222
00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:44,200
you're running something 
day-to-day, whilst you will have

223
00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:50,040
an element of change in there, 
you, you also understand the 

224
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:55,000
motivating teams is slightly 
harder because you haven't with 

225
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,680
project management, you've got 
an amazing end vision. 

226
00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,080
You know, you're starting with 
nothing, you're starting with a 

227
00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,320
concept. 
Everybody's excited to get to 

228
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,600
the end goal and if you're 
running your project well, 

229
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,520
you've got a clear defined 
endpoint of what success looks 

230
00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,280
like. 
Whereas day-to-day operations 

231
00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:15,960
can be a bit harder that it can 
be a bit more turning a wheel 

232
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:23,960
and keeping, keeping teams 
motivated through that and still

233
00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:30,960
developing vision is important. 
That said, you know, again, 

234
00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,760
bringing to OPS some of the 
project management thing, one of

235
00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,760
the ways I tried to sort of 
build that motivation in OPS is 

236
00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:43,480
almost by creating milestone 
points of success in. 

237
00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,600
So even though it wasn't a 
project in that that's our end 

238
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:50,400
game, that's that's our finish 
line, you can still create 

239
00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,560
milestones along the way. 
That's a really good point. 

240
00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:59,440
So to have those mini goals 
along the way and motivating 

241
00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,640
people through that and keeping 
the whole process moving 

242
00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,000
forward. 
How do you square? 

243
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,080
I was interested in what you're 
saying before about having this 

244
00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:13,560
battle with control at the same 
time allowing for innovation. 

245
00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,480
And I think you're right. 
I think a lot of project 

246
00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:19,760
professionals do have that 
element of control. 

247
00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:24,240
I mean, it's all about risk, You
know, what risks are are we in 

248
00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:29,560
danger of encountering and how 
do we mitigate those risks and 

249
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:35,160
squaring that off against giving
people the freedom to pursue 

250
00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,560
what you need to get done, but 
in their own way, and for those 

251
00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,560
unexpected serendipitous things 
to happen that could be 

252
00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:43,680
beneficial. 
It's having that open mind to 

253
00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:45,520
innovate. 
I guess it's innovation, isn't 

254
00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,200
it? 
How do you square the two? 

255
00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:53,760
And what advice would you pass 
on to to project professionals 

256
00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,280
around those two different 
aspects? 

257
00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:05,560
So first of all, I'm drawing a 
lot on agile methodology without

258
00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,720
calling it agile because it's 
that you know that I'm a true 

259
00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:12,319
believer. 
There is the very, very 

260
00:17:12,319 --> 00:17:16,560
disciplined project management, 
technical management style of 

261
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:22,960
agile delivery, but then there 
is principles from that way of 

262
00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:27,240
working that can create agility 
in the way organisations 

263
00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:32,200
operate. 
So I'm on a big quest to bring 

264
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,920
into this this organisation much
more multifunctional working, 

265
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:40,200
much more Co design, much more 
Co innovation. 

266
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:45,720
And what I think Agile does 
really well, it's structures 

267
00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:51,400
sort of pockets of innovation. 
So it puts very strict either 

268
00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:58,520
time cost, quality tram lines 
around a very defined either 

269
00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:04,080
problem statement or user story.
And and the teams innovate 

270
00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,040
within that boundary. 
They don't. 

271
00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,440
So, you know, there's controls 
to stop them running over cost 

272
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:15,120
time, whatever the outcome 
they've got to achieve is 

273
00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:19,520
really, really clear, but they 
get to innovate on the how they 

274
00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:21,800
achieve it. 
And I think there's something we

275
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:25,360
can really learn from that. 
And I'm I want to bring in much 

276
00:18:25,360 --> 00:18:31,440
clearer shared outcomes and 
shared objectives across teams, 

277
00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:36,320
much more multifunctional 
working and then more freedom 

278
00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:41,240
for the teams to decide how they
achieve those outcomes and 

279
00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,080
objectives. 
Can I? 

280
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,240
Pin you down about what do you 
actually mean about Co design 

281
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:48,760
and multifunctional working 
because I'm not sure that 

282
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,280
everyone listening might be 
familiar with that. 

283
00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:57,520
Yeah, so a really good example, 
we've got an RSPCA assured 

284
00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:01,960
scheme. 
That scheme here is it's about 

285
00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:04,720
raising the welfare of farmed 
animals. 

286
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,000
We have a number of aspects to 
that. 

287
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,120
So there's a way we communicate 
that to the public. 

288
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:15,080
That's the comms team. 
There's the assured teams 

289
00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,200
themselves that actually go out 
on farms and check standards. 

290
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,880
There's our animal welfare 
policy experts that really 

291
00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,440
understand the science behind 
sort of animal sentient 

292
00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:31,360
sentience, etcetera. 
It bring those all together, you

293
00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:35,840
get a much stronger plan and 
strategy than if each of those 

294
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,480
teams developed their their bit 
of the strategy in isolation. 

295
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:44,320
So it's about looking at all the
skills needed to achieve an 

296
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:49,400
outcome and making sure that 
people come together to achieve 

297
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:53,760
it together, rather than or do 
their bitterly outcome 

298
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,440
separately. 
So it's kind of joining the dots

299
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,480
between various silos, I guess, 
that people have found 

300
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:02,560
themselves in. 
Definitely. 

301
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:08,560
What are the biggest challenges 
the RSPCA faces at the moment 

302
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,720
that you're you're interested in
working on a kind of outside of 

303
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:16,200
financial pressure it it's 
interesting what you're talking 

304
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,520
about now because that comes to 
kind of cultural change, I 

305
00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,880
guess. 
Yeah, so there's definitely 

306
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:27,560
cultural change internally and I
think every organisation faces 

307
00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:32,800
that to some extent as, as all 
the Gen Z are starting to take 

308
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,440
the world by storm. 
People my age are used to 

309
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:40,320
hierarchies and, you know, 
structures and, and even in my 

310
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,920
policing days, badges on 
shoulders and things. 

311
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,400
Well, so I think there's a need 
for all organisations to just 

312
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,520
become less hierarchical, more 
joined up. 

313
00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:57,240
So that's one the, the main 
thing I think as a RSPCA 

314
00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:03,040
charity, there are there are so 
many ways we can have an impact 

315
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:07,760
on animal welfare. 
The way we are most renowned is 

316
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:11,920
for our direct rescue and 
inspectorate and prosecutions. 

317
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,520
And that's an amazingly 
important part of what we do. 

318
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:22,360
But there's also a lot more we 
could be doing on prevention and

319
00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:26,520
education. 
So, for example, responsible pet

320
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:32,560
ownership, educating people why 
certain breeds of the pet dog, 

321
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:37,840
pet cat, whilst might be 
Instagram trendy, actually that 

322
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,880
that type of breed we're 
breeding in illness and 

323
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,720
suffering. 
And, and I think the more we can

324
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:50,200
educate people, we can have a a 
bigger impact in prevention. 

325
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:55,760
And but people, people want to 
see us do the rescue and 

326
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,160
therefore often fund us to do 
the rescue bit. 

327
00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:02,000
It's AI, guess it relates to 
storytelling, doesn't. 

328
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:10,760
It it absolutely does as A and 
it's also the visibility of the 

329
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:17,880
impact To show a photo of a 
rescued animal is very emotive. 

330
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:23,160
The photo itself tells that 
story, whereas something 

331
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:28,040
slightly more intangible like an
education package to school aged

332
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:33,760
children, it's, it doesn't make 
for as quite an, as a motive a 

333
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,160
photo of, oh, I can see the 
impact that has on animal 

334
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,240
welfare. 
So you've got to be much better 

335
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:43,280
at telling the story, as you 
say, about exactly that. 

336
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:49,760
I'd like to ask you what you 
feel you've done right, I guess 

337
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:56,040
secrets to your success to get 
you to where you are now and any

338
00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:00,160
advice you'd pass on to project 
professionals who might have a 

339
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:04,920
similar ambition to you. 
Both those kind of mid career. 

340
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,320
But also, you know, we're just 
talking about generation said 

341
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,160
like who might be entering the 
project profession at the 

342
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:16,720
moment. 
What advice would you give to 

343
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,320
them? 
So I've asked you 3 questions in

344
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:25,520
one, the secrets to your success
and and from there the advice 

345
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,440
you give to those both mid 
career and those and those kind 

346
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,720
of early career professionals as
well. 

347
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:39,400
So I, I've always been one to 
take myself out side my comfort 

348
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,720
zone quite a lot. 
In fact, my husband gets quite 

349
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,520
he you just get to the end of a 
programme or something and I'd 

350
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,240
be like, oh, this best team 
ever, a best programme ever. 

351
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,640
And then I'd come home. 
Oh, I've now accepted this like 

352
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:58,080
impossible task with impossible 
challenges and a new team to 

353
00:23:58,080 --> 00:23:59,480
build. 
Is that what keeps you 

354
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,520
motivated? 
It sounds like it does that you 

355
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,880
really like to get stuck into 
something difficult. 

356
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,160
Yeah, I do. 
Like I was saying, it's 

357
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,480
impossible. 
It's like a red rag to a ball to

358
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:12,120
me. 
It's like, oh, this right, like 

359
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,640
get in there. 
So it's a definitely taking 

360
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,040
myself outside the comfort zone 
is really important because 

361
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:22,320
that's how you grow and develop.
Plus tackling the difficult 

362
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,560
stuff, your risk is higher. 
I once, actually, I did one of 

363
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:30,920
those psychology things that you
have to do as a leader and it 

364
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,720
looked a bit like a heart attack
on a page because I was on the 

365
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:39,800
one hand extreme risk taker, 
like big, big risk taker, but on

366
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:44,360
the other hand I was an extreme 
warrior and that that doesn't. 

367
00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:47,440
Necessarily sound that healthy? 
No, it's it's. 

368
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,120
I mean, it probably is like, I 
don't know if that doctor might 

369
00:24:50,120 --> 00:24:54,840
think something about that. 
And certainly, yeah, it's, it's 

370
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,680
your cortisol levels are high. 
But I think what that allows me 

371
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,880
to do, I'm not afraid of taking 
big risk, but the worry element 

372
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:08,120
means that I will diligently put
controls around that risk. 

373
00:25:08,120 --> 00:25:11,360
I'll think it through. 
I'll be, I'll, I'll tame it. 

374
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:17,120
So, so I think the more the 
braver you are, the more rewards

375
00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:25,240
you'll get that my advice to mid
career is don't, don't plan it 

376
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:32,240
too carefully because my career 
has been a big zigzag. 

377
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:37,680
You know, we started by saying I
did not dream that I'd be doing 

378
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,320
this job in a organisation like 
this, delighted as I am. 

379
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,680
It was not, that was not on a 
career plan at any point in my 

380
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,560
life. 
So, so don't plan it too 

381
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:53,520
carefully and instead think, 
think about what, what might 

382
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:58,880
that next step give me? 
Like how am I going to grow it 

383
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:04,400
in that next step? 
Because no experience is ever 

384
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:10,440
wasted, even if it doesn't feel 
like the most natural thing to 

385
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,280
do next. 
Any experience you get is a 

386
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,640
string to your bow. 
But early career? 

387
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,880
Say yes to every opportunity 
that arises. 

388
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,880
You know, if you can do it, even
if it's scary, go for it. 

389
00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:27,480
I wasn't going to ask you about 
being a senior woman in 

390
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,160
business, but is that something 
that you've reflected on or do 

391
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,360
you think has affected your 
experience of going up a career 

392
00:26:34,360 --> 00:26:36,400
ladder? 
Because one thing I when you 

393
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,560
were talking to Sen, I was 
thinking about, there still is a

394
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,600
difference between the level of 
self-confidence between men and 

395
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,840
women and when you were talking 
about take, take those kind of 

396
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,320
stretch opportunities. 
Still. 

397
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:53,400
I think I might be wrong, but 
it's this idea that men in 

398
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,880
general might say, yes, an 
opportunity, even though they 

399
00:26:55,880 --> 00:27:00,680
know they can't do it all and 
we'll just do it by the seat of 

400
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:02,760
their pants and believe that 
they could do it. 

401
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,880
Whereas women are more reluctant
to go for stuff where they don't

402
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,560
feel that on paper that they can
show that they've done it. 

403
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:11,560
And I think this comes down to 
self. 

404
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,440
Confidence in the charity 
sector? 

405
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,920
Not at all. 
In fact, actually someone 

406
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,840
highlighted the issue with 
senior roles in the charity 

407
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,200
sectors. 
They tend to all be middle-aged 

408
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,520
white women. 
And I'm like, Oh my God, finally

409
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:30,160
I am the problem. 
So, so that was a bit of a, an 

410
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,040
epiphany for me in the civil 
service. 

411
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:40,080
I have to say I still think 
there is a bias towards men in 

412
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:45,320
the civil service and I don't 
think it's a conscious 1, but 

413
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,800
you only have to look. 
Yesterday, Civil Service World 

414
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:54,600
published the top 10 earners in 
the civil service, all 10. 

415
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,440
And they, they did a sort of 
funny thing about most common 

416
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,280
surnames in the top, highest 
paid civil servants. 

417
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:03,000
That was it. 
Yeah. 

418
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:09,000
Most common surnames in the top.
All 10 top names that. 

419
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:11,880
Sorry, four names. 
Oh, I'm getting this all wrong. 

420
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:12,480
4 names. 
Yeah. 

421
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:13,320
Four names. 
Yeah. 

422
00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:21,680
All 10 top names were men. 
And I do think when men speak, 

423
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:29,000
they, they have more automatic 
credibility than when women. 

424
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:32,280
Still. 
Like, it's not. 

425
00:28:32,360 --> 00:28:35,600
I'm not, I don't want to 
overstate it, but it's just 

426
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,200
there suddenly in the 
background. 

427
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,800
I think what that does, it means
women have to work really hard 

428
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:48,080
at it and, and, but I think that
makes us stronger in the long 

429
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:49,920
run. 
I'd change it in a flash. 

430
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:54,320
It's not right, but it also like
all these things. 

431
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:58,080
Let's turn it into a superpower.
OK, that's great. 

432
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,920
My final question would be, as a
profession in general, does 

433
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:07,240
project management need to be 
more ambitious in establishing 

434
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,760
project management as a career 
that can take you to the very 

435
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,200
top of an organisation? 
Absolutely, yes. 

436
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,600
I think there is too much for 
stereotype of project 

437
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,720
management. 
We are so much more than geeks 

438
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:24,760
with Gantt charts. 
We absolutely the skills you 

439
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:29,720
need to deliver big projects is,
is enormous. 

440
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,960
And, and, but I do think there 
is a bit of an image problem 

441
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,720
around what a project manager 
is. 

442
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:44,560
And and that we're not, we're 
not all technicians. 

443
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,640
We're we're leaders with 
technical skills. 

444
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,640
Well, I think you're a case 
study in point and it's been 

445
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:55,840
brilliant that you've found time
to talk to us. 

446
00:29:55,840 --> 00:30:01,720
And I hope very much that your 
words will inspire those coming 

447
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,480
up in the profession to go to, 
to get to the very top of an 

448
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,080
organisation. 
So it just leads me to thank you

449
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,600
very much Joe for speaking to 
us. 

450
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,360
It's been brilliant. 
Oh well, thank you for having 

451
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,240
me. 
Thanks again to Joe for joining 

452
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,720
us and to you for listening to 
the APM Podcast. 

453
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,160
Don't forget to look out for 
more episodes or to race and 

454
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:22,920
reviews. 
Wherever you get your podcasts, 

455
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,120
we'd welcome you to get in touch
with your comments, feedback and

456
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:31,200
suggestions by emailing us at 
apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk.

457
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,760
Spotify users, please do also 
leave us your comments. 

458
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,840
This podcast has been brought to
you by APM, the chartered body 

459
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,320
for the project profession. 
For more information on APM, 

460
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,720
visit apm.org.uk.