Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the childhood body for
the project profession. My name is Emma Davidson.
I'm the editor of Project, APM's quarterly journal and your host
today's podcast is with Joanna Rowland, chief Executive of the
animal welfare charity, the RSPCA dedicated OPM Podcast
Listeners might remember my previous interview with her in
2020 during the pandemic, when she was director of HMRC's
COVID-19 Response Unit, responsible for helping
mastermind the UK government's furlough scheme, and where she
was also head of the project management profession.
A lot has changed for Jo since then.
She rose the ranks of the civil service, leaving project
management behind her to become Director General of the UK Home
Office, before joining the RSPCA in December 2025 as CEO.
I wanted to catch up with her to find out what it's like to be a
first time CEO, why project management is the perfect
training for the role, why project managers need to set
their sights higher, and her advice to getting to the
C-Suite. Thank you, Joe welcome to the
APM. Welcome back to the APM podcast.
It's nice to see you again. Thank.
You. So last time we spoke you at the
HMRC and now you've been in post as chief executive of the RSPCA
since December. So three months, yeah, three
month anniversary has passed. I've done my 100 days, the
magical 100 days, Yeah. And how's?
How's it been going? Tell us a bit about your role
and, and what you're kind of areas of responsibility are
right now and and kind of like what you'd like to achieve as
chief exec. Yeah.
So it's my first ever Chief exec role and it's my first role in
the third sector. So all very, very exciting, but
it's sort of in a way it brings together lots of aspects that
I've done in the past from, you know, a bit of tech and all the
tech projects I've done, the leadership, the finance,
etcetera. So, so it feels both strangely
familiar and very new at the same time.
But I mean, the main things for me, I this is such an amazing
charity. I describe it as inheriting A
stately home. You don't, you don't really own
it. You just are the custodian for
that generation. And then you've got to try and
hand it off to the future generations in a better state
than you found it. And so for me, a better state
for the RSPCA is One Financial resilience.
It's really hard out there for charities right now.
So and everyone thinks animal welfare charities are really
well funded. It's hard.
So, so definitely financial resilience, but more than
anything it's just it's making a real difference to animals and
that's not just about our rescue side, it's also about sort of
advocacy, prevention and changing things like food and
farming practises. So, high ambition, lots to do.
Was it a place you'd always wanted to work for?
Is animal wear first thought you've always there's been close
to your heart? I mean, it'd be interesting to
know how the job came about and whether it was always your
ambition to get to the very top of an organisation.
I've always wanted to run my own organisation.
I've always wanted that, you know, and it's, I describe it as
so you get the whole train set to, to play with, as it were.
And that's, that's more about because it's about inspiring and
leading a whole organisation. So that's definitely been the
ambition. I didn't think for a minute it I
would be lucky enough to do this role.
And it's only when headhunters came knocking, I wasn't even
looking to leave, leave the civil service.
But when they came knocking and it was the RSPCA, it was heart
and head both said yes, yes, let's do this.
It was, I have to say it was a bit of a heart wrench to leave
the civil service. I, you know, it's a great place,
but I'm loving every minute of it here.
It sounds like you are in a place where you really want to
be and interesting that it's always been your ambition to
lead an organisation, which is something that I'm keen to dive
into a little bit because you come up through project
management. Last time we spoke, I think you
were Chief Transformation Director General at HMRC and
you've been working, yeah, you've been working on the
furlough scheme, which seems like a very long time ago now.
But we're we're we're speaking to project professionals.
And I think there is a real shift in upwards in ambition
that there is real credibility in project management as a
profession. That is something that can take
you right to the top of organisation.
And those I've spoken to have been on that journey say that
one of the absolute benefits of working project management is
that you get oversight of the entire kind of process of an
organisation of all the stakeholders.
And that's something that's invaluable.
So how did you how how have you gotten to where you are through
project management and what have been the advantages that it's?
Brought you so. So first of all, I really
resonate with that you know that you get the oversight, the whole
process, you in project management, you are, you are
overseeing the entire enterprise from the vision, the goal
setting, motivating a team, building a team, communication,
you know, projects do or die on communication obviously budget
setting all the time, risk management, stakeholder
management, all the things that I'm now doing as ACEO.
That is what you do as a, you know, major programme director.
So in terms of skill set, it really, really sets you up well.
The other thing I found particularly in government
project management is you do some massive scale of things,
you know, like making tax digitals, multi multi billion
pounds. Some of the projects running in
the Home Office, multi billion pounds stuff.
I'd love to be in the billion pounds in charity.
We're not quite at that scale of money, but no, it it really does
have some parallels. So you are able to demonstrate
both the skill set but also the scale that many CVS can't.
What have been the major differences between moving from
civil service to something like a a charity?
So working in the public sector, what's kind of unique about it?
Does it bring additional kind of financial responsibility you're
answering to different stakeholders?
Is there anything that you've particularly noticed?
Yeah. So a couple of observations, 1st
of what the buck genuinely stops with you here.
You know, so although there is a board and essentially actually
the trustees on the board are responsible for a charity, the
level of day-to-day decision making that you do as a chief
exec and a charity is far and beyond the decision making you
do as a DG. So for example, what pay rises
everybody gets, what reward package you might give people.
There be decisions about whether to release certain comms.
Whereas in the civil service, although the scale and the risk
that you're managing as a DG is enormous and societal impact is
enormous, there are lots of things like you've still got #10
saying whether your comms can go out or not.
You'll have a corporate finance team somewhere worrying about
the financial solvency of of the organisation.
So whereas as ACEO in the charity, all of that's on your
plate and you've got to, and you are responsible for all of it,
which is both brilliant because back to the sort of, you know,
you've got all the levers of control to meet ambition, but
it's also quite daunting. And it isn't lost on me how much
in a way how much more responsibility I feel in this
sector than I did in government. The other observation I'd make
that's really quite different is the role a board of trustees
plays to a charity is quite different than a board might
play to a government department. And and that's and that's
different in some ways they're both more hands off and in some
ways they're more hands on. It's, it's a different, it's
just a different dynamic. So it's taken me a little while
to understand and get used to that.
I. Want to come back to what you
said before about communication, which is a critical skill for
project professionals. What have you learnt from being
able to manage or communicate with different stakeholders
which who inevitably have competing priorities?
I mean it's partly about keeping everyone happy, but what has
project management given you in terms of, I guess people skills?
So kind of like covered of comms, but in terms of dealing
with stakeholders, stakeholder management, has there been any
lessons that project management has given you that you you're
now really kind of taking on as CEO?
Oh, loads. This is an area where that has a
real overlap with project management.
So. So on the one hand, stakeholder
mapping, good old fashioned stakeholder understanding.
Who do I need? Who do I want?
Who who can accelerate me? Who can stop us?
You know that sort of good, good understanding.
But I think the main thing project management does is is
taught me to really understand stakeholder expectations,
because no amount of communication that you do is
going to be effective if you are communicating to an assumed
expectation. Whereas actually the reality is
the stakeholder's expecting something different.
And the other thing, like most communications about something
changing, even here, it could be about we're changing our
strategy or, you know, we're we're want to change the
attitude to so and project management has taught me it for
humans change, it weirdly is all about loss, even though the
project's all about future and excitement and forward thinking.
The psychology of change is all about loss.
So I, I've taken a lot of, find myself drawing on that an awful
lot when communicating with stakeholders in this role.
What about what project management doesn't give you?
So what does it take to break out of project management and
into a kind of senior leadership role, senior executive role that
is beyond that? Function so the number one thing
here which I and I'm I'm laughing at myself as project
director you you your job is to control chaos, isn't it you like
you start a project it's full of unknowns and assumptions and as
you work through your lovely programme plan, you're gradually
nailing down more and more certainty towards delivery and
and let's face it, I think most project managers we love a
little bit of control. We love our control frameworks
and whereas when you run a big organisation, you know, control
can be a bit of an illusion and plus you've got to be careful
not to stifle innovation. And so, so adapting, having a
different way into thinking about controls is quite
important because it would, whilst I'd feel lovely and
comfortable running an organisation with all the same
controls I would have put around one of my programmes, the
reality is you, you can't do that.
It's it's got to be more nuanced.
Have you? Was that something you'd thought
about before you'd moved into this role or went experience
that you picked up in your last role at HMRC?
Or is it something that, is it a realisation that's happened
whilst you're actually been doing this role?
So it is to some extent A realisation coming into this
role. However, in between HMRC and
this I had a short time at the Home Office and.
Oh yes, you did. Yeah.
And that was in OPS rather than projects.
And so, so that that sort of was, was a transition between
the two worlds for me, which was helpful, I think.
I think if I'd gone straight from project management to this,
the shock would have been a bit harder.
Would you say that's a piece of advice you'd give to people?
It would be to come out maybe not saying that you took a
sideways move, but if you're quite senior within project
management that an opportunity comes up to gain experience of
operations or kind of business as usual that that might be
something valuable. Definitely.
I think it really, really helps to have run something rather
than build something. I think it's and because when
you're running something day-to-day, whilst you will have
an element of change in there, you, you also understand the
motivating teams is slightly harder because you haven't with
project management, you've got an amazing end vision.
You know, you're starting with nothing, you're starting with a
concept. Everybody's excited to get to
the end goal and if you're running your project well,
you've got a clear defined endpoint of what success looks
like. Whereas day-to-day operations
can be a bit harder that it can be a bit more turning a wheel
and keeping, keeping teams motivated through that and still
developing vision is important. That said, you know, again,
bringing to OPS some of the project management thing, one of
the ways I tried to sort of build that motivation in OPS is
almost by creating milestone points of success in.
So even though it wasn't a project in that that's our end
game, that's that's our finish line, you can still create
milestones along the way. That's a really good point.
So to have those mini goals along the way and motivating
people through that and keeping the whole process moving
forward. How do you square?
I was interested in what you're saying before about having this
battle with control at the same time allowing for innovation.
And I think you're right. I think a lot of project
professionals do have that element of control.
I mean, it's all about risk, You know, what risks are are we in
danger of encountering and how do we mitigate those risks and
squaring that off against giving people the freedom to pursue
what you need to get done, but in their own way, and for those
unexpected serendipitous things to happen that could be
beneficial. It's having that open mind to
innovate. I guess it's innovation, isn't
it? How do you square the two?
And what advice would you pass on to to project professionals
around those two different aspects?
So first of all, I'm drawing a lot on agile methodology without
calling it agile because it's that you know that I'm a true
believer. There is the very, very
disciplined project management, technical management style of
agile delivery, but then there is principles from that way of
working that can create agility in the way organisations
operate. So I'm on a big quest to bring
into this this organisation much more multifunctional working,
much more Co design, much more Co innovation.
And what I think Agile does really well, it's structures
sort of pockets of innovation. So it puts very strict either
time cost, quality tram lines around a very defined either
problem statement or user story. And and the teams innovate
within that boundary. They don't.
So, you know, there's controls to stop them running over cost
time, whatever the outcome they've got to achieve is
really, really clear, but they get to innovate on the how they
achieve it. And I think there's something we
can really learn from that. And I'm I want to bring in much
clearer shared outcomes and shared objectives across teams,
much more multifunctional working and then more freedom
for the teams to decide how they achieve those outcomes and
objectives. Can I?
Pin you down about what do you actually mean about Co design
and multifunctional working because I'm not sure that
everyone listening might be familiar with that.
Yeah, so a really good example, we've got an RSPCA assured
scheme. That scheme here is it's about
raising the welfare of farmed animals.
We have a number of aspects to that.
So there's a way we communicate that to the public.
That's the comms team. There's the assured teams
themselves that actually go out on farms and check standards.
There's our animal welfare policy experts that really
understand the science behind sort of animal sentient
sentience, etcetera. It bring those all together, you
get a much stronger plan and strategy than if each of those
teams developed their their bit of the strategy in isolation.
So it's about looking at all the skills needed to achieve an
outcome and making sure that people come together to achieve
it together, rather than or do their bitterly outcome
separately. So it's kind of joining the dots
between various silos, I guess, that people have found
themselves in. Definitely.
What are the biggest challenges the RSPCA faces at the moment
that you're you're interested in working on a kind of outside of
financial pressure it it's interesting what you're talking
about now because that comes to kind of cultural change, I
guess. Yeah, so there's definitely
cultural change internally and I think every organisation faces
that to some extent as, as all the Gen Z are starting to take
the world by storm. People my age are used to
hierarchies and, you know, structures and, and even in my
policing days, badges on shoulders and things.
Well, so I think there's a need for all organisations to just
become less hierarchical, more joined up.
So that's one the, the main thing I think as a RSPCA
charity, there are there are so many ways we can have an impact
on animal welfare. The way we are most renowned is
for our direct rescue and inspectorate and prosecutions.
And that's an amazingly important part of what we do.
But there's also a lot more we could be doing on prevention and
education. So, for example, responsible pet
ownership, educating people why certain breeds of the pet dog,
pet cat, whilst might be Instagram trendy, actually that
that type of breed we're breeding in illness and
suffering. And, and I think the more we can
educate people, we can have a a bigger impact in prevention.
And but people, people want to see us do the rescue and
therefore often fund us to do the rescue bit.
It's AI, guess it relates to storytelling, doesn't.
It it absolutely does as A and it's also the visibility of the
impact To show a photo of a rescued animal is very emotive.
The photo itself tells that story, whereas something
slightly more intangible like an education package to school aged
children, it's, it doesn't make for as quite an, as a motive a
photo of, oh, I can see the impact that has on animal
welfare. So you've got to be much better
at telling the story, as you say, about exactly that.
I'd like to ask you what you feel you've done right, I guess
secrets to your success to get you to where you are now and any
advice you'd pass on to project professionals who might have a
similar ambition to you. Both those kind of mid career.
But also, you know, we're just talking about generation said
like who might be entering the project profession at the
moment. What advice would you give to
them? So I've asked you 3 questions in
one, the secrets to your success and and from there the advice
you give to those both mid career and those and those kind
of early career professionals as well.
So I, I've always been one to take myself out side my comfort
zone quite a lot. In fact, my husband gets quite
he you just get to the end of a programme or something and I'd
be like, oh, this best team ever, a best programme ever.
And then I'd come home. Oh, I've now accepted this like
impossible task with impossible challenges and a new team to
build. Is that what keeps you
motivated? It sounds like it does that you
really like to get stuck into something difficult.
Yeah, I do. Like I was saying, it's
impossible. It's like a red rag to a ball to
me. It's like, oh, this right, like
get in there. So it's a definitely taking
myself outside the comfort zone is really important because
that's how you grow and develop. Plus tackling the difficult
stuff, your risk is higher. I once, actually, I did one of
those psychology things that you have to do as a leader and it
looked a bit like a heart attack on a page because I was on the
one hand extreme risk taker, like big, big risk taker, but on
the other hand I was an extreme warrior and that that doesn't.
Necessarily sound that healthy? No, it's it's.
I mean, it probably is like, I don't know if that doctor might
think something about that. And certainly, yeah, it's, it's
your cortisol levels are high. But I think what that allows me
to do, I'm not afraid of taking big risk, but the worry element
means that I will diligently put controls around that risk.
I'll think it through. I'll be, I'll, I'll tame it.
So, so I think the more the braver you are, the more rewards
you'll get that my advice to mid career is don't, don't plan it
too carefully because my career has been a big zigzag.
You know, we started by saying I did not dream that I'd be doing
this job in a organisation like this, delighted as I am.
It was not, that was not on a career plan at any point in my
life. So, so don't plan it too
carefully and instead think, think about what, what might
that next step give me? Like how am I going to grow it
in that next step? Because no experience is ever
wasted, even if it doesn't feel like the most natural thing to
do next. Any experience you get is a
string to your bow. But early career?
Say yes to every opportunity that arises.
You know, if you can do it, even if it's scary, go for it.
I wasn't going to ask you about being a senior woman in
business, but is that something that you've reflected on or do
you think has affected your experience of going up a career
ladder? Because one thing I when you
were talking to Sen, I was thinking about, there still is a
difference between the level of self-confidence between men and
women and when you were talking about take, take those kind of
stretch opportunities. Still.
I think I might be wrong, but it's this idea that men in
general might say, yes, an opportunity, even though they
know they can't do it all and we'll just do it by the seat of
their pants and believe that they could do it.
Whereas women are more reluctant to go for stuff where they don't
feel that on paper that they can show that they've done it.
And I think this comes down to self.
Confidence in the charity sector?
Not at all. In fact, actually someone
highlighted the issue with senior roles in the charity
sectors. They tend to all be middle-aged
white women. And I'm like, Oh my God, finally
I am the problem. So, so that was a bit of a, an
epiphany for me in the civil service.
I have to say I still think there is a bias towards men in
the civil service and I don't think it's a conscious 1, but
you only have to look. Yesterday, Civil Service World
published the top 10 earners in the civil service, all 10.
And they, they did a sort of funny thing about most common
surnames in the top, highest paid civil servants.
That was it. Yeah.
Most common surnames in the top. All 10 top names that.
Sorry, four names. Oh, I'm getting this all wrong.
4 names. Yeah.
Four names. Yeah.
All 10 top names were men. And I do think when men speak,
they, they have more automatic credibility than when women.
Still. Like, it's not.
I'm not, I don't want to overstate it, but it's just
there suddenly in the background.
I think what that does, it means women have to work really hard
at it and, and, but I think that makes us stronger in the long
run. I'd change it in a flash.
It's not right, but it also like all these things.
Let's turn it into a superpower. OK, that's great.
My final question would be, as a profession in general, does
project management need to be more ambitious in establishing
project management as a career that can take you to the very
top of an organisation? Absolutely, yes.
I think there is too much for stereotype of project
management. We are so much more than geeks
with Gantt charts. We absolutely the skills you
need to deliver big projects is, is enormous.
And, and, but I do think there is a bit of an image problem
around what a project manager is.
And and that we're not, we're not all technicians.
We're we're leaders with technical skills.
Well, I think you're a case study in point and it's been
brilliant that you've found time to talk to us.
And I hope very much that your words will inspire those coming
up in the profession to go to, to get to the very top of an
organisation. So it just leads me to thank you
very much Joe for speaking to us.
It's been brilliant. Oh well, thank you for having
me. Thanks again to Joe for joining
us and to you for listening to the APM Podcast.
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