Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm
the editor of Project, APM's quarterly journal and your host.
In this podcast, we're taking on the subject of stress, how to
enjoy it, how to manage it, and how to deal with too much of it
in the right way. We'll also be giving advice to
the project leaders among you about how to manage stress
levels within your teams. I'm very pleased to welcome my
guests today Clara Chung, lead author on the APM Report The
Well-being of Project Professionals and Reader in
Engineering Management at the University of Manchester,
Veronica Sicombe, a project manager at Mott McDonald who's
currently based in Saudi Arabia, and Rochelle Sampson Clark, a
business intelligence project manager for NHS South Central
and West Commissioning Support Unit.
Veronica and Rochelle are the members of APM's Women in
Project Management Interest Network and are active in its
well-being subgroups. So welcome everyone.
Managing stress, maintaining work life balance, and at the
more extreme end, avoiding burnout is a modern
preoccupation. The 2025 APM Salary and Market
Trend Survey showed, for example, just how important
flexible working is to project professionals in their desire to
maintain some kind of work life balance.
Yet let's not forget that the right level of stress can be
enjoyable and motivating for many of you working in project
management. So I would like to invite you
car as leadles from the report on well-being for APM.
I'd like to invite you to tell us what the most important
things you discovered during research and what has changed,
do you think, in within work since that was published?
Yeah. Thanks, Emma.
Actually, when we carry out the APM study a few years ago, one
of the biggest discoveries was just how much project
professionals were struggling compared to the general
workforce. They're less resilient, more at
risk at the psychological strain and under string very great
pressure on unrealistic workload, poor communication and
very difficult work condition as well.
This was like important evidence based because at the time,
well-being in project management was still, I would say, an
emerging topic. Many people thought it's just a
nice to have rather than something fundamental to project
delivery. But since then, I think
awareness grow, particularly the pandemic, the shift of the
hybrid work, flexible working and more recently digitalization
using more AI have been made well-being impossible to be
ignored. But new risks have also been
emerged because like very blurred boundary of digital
overloading. And then also new opportunity
come such as as I said, flexible work patterns.
But what hasn't been changed enough, I would say, is
well-being is still too often treated as an individual
responsibility rather than a systematic 1.
So my argument is that it needs to be reframed as a strategic
enabler of project success, every bit as important as time,
cost and quality, but not just like nice to have to be.
It's really important points there and something you talked
about, the systemic level of stress.
I think all too often individuals feel as though if
they're struggling with their workload or the stress, they
feel it's because they're failing somehow that they're not
approaching it well. When actually I think this is
most of the responsibility should be on the organisation or
the OR the individual manager or leader to make sure that they
are giving a sensible workload or to give support to people in
in in managing them. Is that something that really
came out from the report? Yes, that's the strongest
message actually from from the the report because the data
actually show the main sources of stress were systematic.
So things like unrealistic deadline that you already talked
about briefly, lack of resources, inadequate training
or poor communication, these sites think it's not issue for
individual that could simply solve by being resilience or
work harder. They are symptoms of how
projects are designed and deliver.
So that's why we argue actually in the report for the
intervention to improve the well-being level that should be
at 2 levels. So at the organisational level
the responsibility is to decide healthier system.
So for example, I plan realistically, allocate
resources properly, create supportive leadership, make
well-being as the part of management and culture.
And at the individual level, of course, coping strategies like
time and energy and management are valuable, but they should be
the last line of defence I would say, not just not the first one.
So we found the structural change at organisational level,
organisations basically risking placing the entire burden on the
individual. It's both unfair, I think it's
also unsustainable. Is there a certain type of
person who's drawn to project management, someone who actually
enjoys the adrenaline of a deadline, like a certain amount
of stress, the challenge of it, it can you.
Was there anything you noticed in your research that that you
could characterise this kind of broad community of people by?
Do they love a bit of stress? I will say on this report, but
just based on my personal experience, OK, because I also
work in industry for 10 years before I become an academic,
even I become an academics, I'm still teaching project
management. I think yes, there's typical,
there's certain types of people really enjoys being a project
professional. First of all, people who like
change, people who think of challenges, yes, we have that.
I think that kind of people tend to get into this career path
easier. But still we need to carefully
manage this. Although we enjoy being
challenged but doesn't mean we can chronically being challenged
and without boundaries. Veronica, could you tell us a
bit about your role and the kinds of stress you're under and
how much do you enjoy being a little bit stressed or?
Right. So Emma, I'm a multidisciplinary
project manager and I'm currently based in Riyadh, Saudi
Arabia. So my role is a blend of
planning, coordination of multidisciplinary design teams,
managing schedules, budgets and managing stakeholders who
generally don't want to be managed.
So you can imagine there's a lot of stress that's associated with
working with humans and the deadlines that are associated
with project management. So that obviously requires
flexibility and structure at the same time, which can be quite
challenging most times, but you enjoy it.
So in terms of stresses that I face, I'd say trying to get up
to speed with project requirements as the project is
progressing. As you know, construction is a
very fast-paced industry. No project is pausing for you to
get up to feed with everything. So you have to do that
consistently as the project develops.
And then there's also the stresses that's associated with
the stakeholder management. Stakeholders generally don't
want to be managed. They've got their own
requirements, they've got their own deadlines and they have
their own expectations. So that that can cause a lot of
stress on my side. But having said that, I do enjoy
the stress that comes with it. It is counterbalanced by the by
achieving these deliverables, for example, and deadlines and
you know, getting those wins, small wins do do make me happy.
How? How long have you been working
with him? Project management.
So I started off as an architectural design
technologist. I've been in the eight years now
in construction, but I've been doing outright project
management for four years. What have you learned about how
to manage stress for you as you become more confident in your
ability to work, which you kind of is, I guess as natural as you
climb a career lad and you gain more experience.
But is there any kind of one thing that stands out in terms
of how you think about stress and and your workload that you
perhaps wish you told a younger version of yourself or people
who are kind of early on in their career?
It's knowing that stress is inevitable.
Whatever you do, you know, that's one thing that keeps me
going. It's inevitable.
The the key is managing that stress.
So I've come to have some sort of boundaries to to know when to
say actually I need support from my team to deliver the whatever
the project, whether it's the fee earning project or a big
project, whatever it will be. So it's knowing my boundaries
and knowing when, when to shout out for help, for example, and
not just keeping internally and trying to to thrive without the
support because that can be detrimental.
Absolutely. I'm Keir Saski, is now your
working not in the UK, you're in Saudi Arabia.
So I guess throughout your career you've faced new
stresses, so there's a new stress of working within a new
culture. And how has that been for you?
Has that presented a whole new level of challenge that you
haven't had previously? Absolutely so so I was with Matt
McDonald and in in the UK decided to relocate to to Saudi
Arabia when I first joined the company in Saudi Arabia,
everything, even the smallest of task would be quite stressful.
This is this was all dependent on what was going on outside of
my actual work. So it's the the, the stresses
associated with relocating. So trying to settle in, trying
to find a home, you know, just trying to navigate the, the
culture, the working culture and just the general culture here in
Saudi Arabia. So, but year on, I'm more
settled now, even if the project is challenging, it's not as
stressful because I, I'm now settled in.
So the point I'm trying to make is external factors do play a
big role in, in the stress or you know, the, the project
stress that you face. Michelle, tell us a bit about
your role and the kinds of thing complexities that you have to
manage and and the workload you have, the various stresses you
face in your role every day. Yeah.
So I manage digital and data analytics projects within the
NHS. So I think everyone is aware of
the challenges within the NHS, the usual, the tight budgets,
the tight deadlines, those kind of things.
And I think in most projects, as been mentioned before, the the
stakeholder management elements, those varying requirements, the
push and the pull of stakeholders in different
directions and things, which is something as project
professionals is really important to try and master, not
just for our for our projects, but also for our lives
personally, how we manage the conflicts in those different
situations at work and at home. So yeah, I think those are
probably the primary and also things like uncertainty change.
So you did mention that we love change as project managers.
I think to a certain degree that things like uncertainty,
organisational change, changes in leadership structure, those
kind of things are challenging. And at the moment we're kind of
facing that in the NHS and other organisations are probably
facing the same thing. So those are sort of the main
stresses that I'm facing at the moment.
But I think that I was drawn to project management because I've
always really enjoyed being in control and the stress, well, a
healthy level of stress of managing multiple projects,
managing things in my life, and just being in control of that.
And I think quite a lot of project managers are drawn to it
because of that type of lifestyle that they live.
Because I'm, I moved into project management later on
because I realise it's something that's quite suited to my
personality. So yeah, I think that I enjoy
stress, but I've had a lot of learning and I've adapted from
where I was when I first started out and, and, and the challenges
that I've had in managing stress.
I've definitely adapted my style, but it has been difficult
to sort of let go of that. I need to be in control and I
can manage all this myself. I'd like to invite all of you to
ask how generally how stressful you think project management is
to working as a profession and how that does depend on where
you are in your career. So Veronica, you've ready talks
a little bit about like when you're starting out in your
career. But would you all agree that
that that perhaps when you're early on in your career that
that's the key? That's when you're first exposed
to a lot of stress, I imagine, and you're maybe foundering
around as to what the expectations are that you can't
say no to your boss. But then equally at mid
management and senior levels, there might be different types
of stresses you face. So I don't know who wants to
who'd, who'd like to tell a bit of, you know, well, I think
that. I think that stress, it really
varies. So you will have stress in all
any way you work. I don't particularly think that
project management is more stressful because for example,
you could have great budgets, you could have realistic time
scales, a great team of people that you work with, your
stakeholders and your project team.
But what we have is we have those identified risks that
could come into fruition throughout our projects.
And it's those and the new issues that arise, which can
then cause a project that was going really, really well and
low stress, everything flowing nicely to then become quite
stressful. So it it's that uncertainty, the
risks and then the issues in our projects that probably might
throw us over the edge. But I would definitely say that,
you know, all industries are going to have different levels
of stress. But I think because we do work
in such a multidisciplinary way with different teams and, and
large groups and, and these restraints that it can be quite
stressful. But also what your point about
depending on, on where you are at in your career?
I definitely remember when I started, I wanted to prove
myself and I wasn't, and I wasn't a young, I didn't start
young in the profession. So I was actually quite
headstrong. And you know, I had a lot of
life experience, a lot of job work experience and stuff like
that. So and a family and a child.
So I was a mother at that time, which is the the difference.
I think if you're starting early career and you want to really
make your mark, you're a yes person.
You don't want to be seen as oh, I'm not able to do this.
I can't show any weakness by saying no to a task.
I don't have any authority at that stage in my career.
And if I say no, then people think I'm possibly incompetent.
So I think there is that challenge in early careers, but
it does depend on when you start your career, when you say early
careers in project management. Absolutely, but that obviously
just picking up on what you said, Rochelle, that can be very
detrimental being a yes person. It's now you do have to prove
yourself. Absolutely.
You have to show people your capabilities, but you have to
take a step back and reflect and and and take note that, you
know, stress can lead to burnout.
So just picking up on on the fact that yes, it does stress
does differ depending on where you are in your career, but it
also depends on the individual's character.
So what might be stressful to me might be energising to you for
you, Rochelle. And I think that's where we need
to make sure we're not having a unified measure of stress for
all project professionals. You know, we need to be to be
taken into consideration the human aspect of project delivery
in in making sure that we are recognising that as leaders or
as organisation on an organisational level.
It's learning about yourself and how you how you deal with
stress, what kinds of stress you like.
And so becoming more self aware, I guess it's key to communicate
that to whoever's managing you or who whoever you answer to.
And it might be more than one person, but that can you have to
be pretty brave to be able to do that, unless you work in an
organisation where it's set up, but that support is set up and,
and, and they're, they're ready to help you.
Clara, what did you have any thoughts around this?
Yeah, Actually we're just going back to your original question
around the stage of career, because when we do our last
report, the APM study around well-being, we define early
career. Early career, the definition for
us is just getting to this profession, three to five years
of experience and then afterwards you progress to
middle level, you start to have the measurement responsibility a
little bit more and then you go to the senior.
So we found actually the most stressful group is the early
career profession. And then some of the possible
reason behind that, I think Veronica and and Michelle
already talk about is the lack of control that they feel
because they always need to say yes, OK, and then unclear
expectation. They don't know how to ask
question to clear, OK, what is the expectation on them and the
pressure to prove themselves. I think they both also talk
about it while they progress to the mid career profession, they
tend to feel also very squeezed by multiple projects, people
management, delivery deadlines and then they are all multiples
because usually you just handle multiple projects, right?
When they progress to senior, it's not saying that they have
nothing to do, OK. They still need to balance the
weight of strategic accountability, overall
portfolio performance, but still what they feel is they feel more
control over what they can achieve so that possibly
alleviate the stress level that they experience.
When it comes to different stresses you face in your work,
perhaps sometimes it's not just about how to having too much
work to do. Can it be a lack of work as
well? Yeah, definitely.
I think that it's not just about managing multiple projects at a
time that sometimes there, there is a lack of opportunity or a
lack of understanding of where you're going or, or seeing what
you're, where what you're actually doing is going to take
you. And a lot of organisations there
isn't, there aren't those opportunities, there aren't
training opportunities or opportunities to progress.
And I think that can be just as stressful as having to having
work overload or also not having enough work as well.
So having those periods of no growth when you're kind of left
to your own devices when projects projects are quiet,
that can be equally stressful because a lot of people need
need things to do and to keep their mind going and also to to
just know that their careers are going to be moving in in a
forward trajectory. So yeah, I think that can also
cause stress in a lot of project professionals lives too.
Yeah, it's horrible feeling stuck when you feel stuck in a
place where you like, you say you're not being stretched
enough or you're just treading water and.
You're right. That's a, that's a kind of
different kind of stress, isn't it?
But then if but either if the other two if you like to comment
on that. Stress is not necessarily a bad
thing. OK, we need certain level of
stress in order to perform well, but we're just talking about
excessive level of stress that leads you to burn our situation,
which is not good. So like what Richelle was
talking about, I think is falling into the group that
people not getting enough stress to perform well.
They don't get enough training, they don't get enough
opportunities to grow themselves.
I think that falls into that before getting too stressful at
the other end of the graph, because the graph should be in
AU shape. OK, you need certain level of
stress in order to make your performance at the top.
I think everyone needs the level of stress to, to, to, to get
better and better each time to flex the, the muscle, the brain
muscle, you need some level of stress, but not a prolonged
period of stress. It helps if you can see, say for
example, you've got deliverable, you've got deadlines.
Once you hit the deadlines, you're seeing, you know, light
at the end of the tunnel and that can be manageable.
So, you know, you've got, you've got to go through some level of
stress for a certain amount of time.
And after that you come out, you're winning, you're
celebrating your wins, you're celebrating the fact that you've
hit the deadline and your client is happy.
And you know, there's, yeah, stuff like that.
Just going back to Rochelle's point on not having anything to
do that can be very detrimental to people because then you, you,
you sit down and you're looking at your peers, for example,
their their stress, they're being stretched constantly.
And you start comparing yourself, what am I doing?
You start questioning your, your, your, your existence
really within your career. Did I make the right choice?
Especially if you've come from a different career path, you've
joined, say, project management from say, whether it be
architectural technology like I did.
I come in and I've got nothing to do.
I will definitely start comparing myself to my peers,
you know, maybe, yeah, you know, doubting myself and doubting my
decision. So it's definitely important to
have some some level of stress. What should the best
organisations be doing in terms of watching out the stress?
And too much stress will burnout within their team.
So is there any advice you would give to project managers or
project leaders about how to be the kind of boss that a person
would like to have when it comes to thinking about stress and
overload? Is there any advice you'd pass
on to people like that? Either you've picked up or
you've experienced yourself as someone who's had who's who's
got the right support. Yeah, I think, I think a people
centric approach is important when we're talking about stress
and delivering projects. You know, understanding people's
different strengths definitely take, you know, as a leader for
managing a project. If I know what my team's
capabilities are, I'm less likely to stress them out and
burn them out because I'm not asking for too much from them.
So it's definitely understanding that having these team meetings
catch up to, to make sure everyone is understands what
their requirement, what they're having, clear roles and
responsibilities, making sure those are communicated to the
wider team is for me, I think important.
Just speaking from experience. I always feel unsettled when I'm
not sure what's required of me. Therefore, clear rules and
responsibilities is absolutely fundamental for for to to be
able to deliver as you require them to.
And I guess it's having everyone else understand what you're,
what you've got on your desk. So I've had jobs before.
I had two bosses and one boss didn't know what the other one
was giving me. And it was really confusing and
really stressful because I, I was right in the middle and
neither knew how much my work code was.
So I guess the best project teams, everyone knows what
everyone's up against and is supportive.
Tell me a bit about the Boost meetings you have.
Yes, we have the booth. Meetings to set up, to set the
scene for the week. It's really a strategy, a
positive intervention strategy where people can feel heard, you
celebrate wins, you talk about what's happening in the week.
And just to give that, to give people that psychological
safety, you know, to be able to, to speak without judgement and,
and develop and that way, it's absolutely brilliant.
And I think I'd take it everywhere I go.
How long is it? Do you have it at the beginning
of the week so you have it on a Monday morning?
Yeah, Sunday morning with it being in Saudi Arabia, but yes,
half an hour and then if we've got more, more to do, would
probably take 45 minutes to talk about prospective projects and
stuff like that. Yeah, it's a, it's a brilliant
initiative. But as well as that, we also do
have champions, well-being champions within the office and
staff council leads to to just to make people aware that they
are people available when you are going through things.
And you need to have that discussion about surrounding
stress, whether it's resourcing, whether you're too, too
stretched. So yeah.
Do you feel confident now? How long do you think it takes
before you're able to say, look, I need some help because that
can be a really daunting thing to say and realise that it's not
your fault. It's not that you're failing,
it's that it's under resourced. Do you feel that in a position
where you can say that and that it gets listened to, there's one
thing saying it and some of your boss saying, well, just go on
with it tough. There's no more money or there's
no more resource to actually people listening and being able
to help or explain at least why that help isn't available.
Yeah, it does take a while. And again, just touching up on
my previous point, it does depend on the person's character
because you you can find an ECP who's very able to, to to say,
look, this is too much for me. I need support for ABC.
And then you can, you can find someone intermediate level
project manager not able to actually say what they require.
So it does character does play into it as well.
You know, having that just to say, actually, I need the
support. This is the situation.
And then wait, when you get to a situation where you have voiced
your concerns and nothing is being done, it then gets to a
point where you need to reflect. Is this what I want to be part
of? Because no mental health is
where you know, no, no job is working mental health.
You do have to take a step back and reflect to see what you
know, what's the best way forward because it can be quite
detrimental. I think Rochelle, you mentioned
that you have been through a burnout and it's recognising not
you don't want to get to that level.
What do you do? You have to reflect on you know
where you are, what you need to do moving forward.
On that point. As.
Project professionals, we are always taught the importance of
communication and I know that Clara mentioned that there is an
organisational responsibility to ensure that our well-being is
being managed and I I fully support that.
But I also see the flip side of the fact that as individuals we
need to be better at self advocating for ourselves.
We need to actually know our boundaries and also our level of
tolerance. So for example, yeah, IA number
of years ago, actually slightly before I started as a project
professional, I was managing projects in that role, but I
actually went through a period of burnout and stress and low
mood. So it was a part where I was
able to manage loads of work. And you can manage multiple
projects and do it really successfully and thrive on the
stress. But the minute something
external happens in your personal life, something
unexpected happens, that's sort of what might tick you over the
edge. And that's what happened to me.
So these things were going on in the background at home and at
home, at work, I'm still trying to manage and I still have this
responsibility because all this time I've been so successful at
managing these projects. It's absolutely still required
of me. And at that point, I wasn't
particularly good at communicating.
I thought, you know, well, I've been good at managing these
projects for so long, I need to maintain this.
But also, I had no room to breathe with everything that
else that was going on at home. So, and I think that that
happens in a lot of circumstances, but we need to be
better at communicating. It's a key project skill to
have. But if we don't, if we don't
know our own boundaries. So that kind of taught me my
level of tolerance and I kind of needed to be to get to that
point and to get to burn out and, and that level of poor
well-being to know that this I'm not, I can't get back to this
level once it starts to get to this point, it's time to put
some things into place to sort of manage that.
And that included, you know, communicating, letting people
around me know what was going on.
Was that quite hard to do? Is there any advice about how to
do that well that you've learned?
Do do people tend to really fear it?
But when they sit down with someone often find that people
can be very supportive? I've been really lucky with who
then the where I've worked. So I worked in mental health.
So there was that general understanding before I moved
into project management of the need to support people and
people's differences and, and that kind of thing.
And that kind of gave me the foundation, but it didn't stop
me from, from being burnt out and, and reaching that level.
But what it did help was the fact that I could always
communicate and I there was, there were people around me that
would support me. So for example, I used the
workplace employee assistance programmes.
So that included cognitive behavioural therapy and
counselling, which was part of the, the things I did to help to
manage my well-being. But it is, I find that finding
allies, I would, I'll use the term allies, but finding people
within your organisation or building good relationships is
really key. So a lot of us, we do say, oh,
keep your work and your home life separate.
But actually, if people don't know anything about you, they
don't know you know your lifestyle, they don't even know
you have children, they don't know you're anything about you,
they're not going to be able to support you in in a reasonable
way. So I think teams leaders need to
learn about their people and vice versa.
So that you know, as as a group of as your project team or as,
as the, the people that you're leading.
You all know your triggers. You all know when you're, you
know, you're getting to that point of sort of no return so
that everyone can kind of support you rather than just
being in your individual silo. You're I'm going to manage this
on my own. I don't want anybody to know
about my personal circumstances because it's not a negative.
It's not a bad thing to to share these challenges.
I suppose Rochelle just picking up on that and working
individually in a silo, no one knowing anything about you.
When you work that way, it's really difficult to, to build
trust. And when you've got trust, it's
easy to work and work to a common goal.
That is one of one of the criteria to, to, to building an
effective team. It's that trust knowing each
other outside of work. You don't have to to tell them
everything about you, but you, you should be, there should be
some level of trust for, for people, for teams to be
effective and efficient. Otherwise it's just it becomes
impossible, doesn't it, to to work to a common goal without
the trust? Well, Rochelle, I wanted to
thank you for sharing that with us.
And also we're touching on some really big things now.
Cara, is this we? What should an individual do in
order to prevent getting to where Rochelle was, which is
being burned out because prevention is better than cure.
This is much easier said than done.
So how can you as an individual know what's right for you and
protect it? So protect your mental health.
I think. You.
Detect the sign where you leave the edge of burnout.
OK, just like what Rochelle was talking about.
You know yourself OK whether you have no mood consistently.
You. You feel you lose interest on
the stuff that you're usually you're interested in.
So you need to detect this on the sign just like myself, OK, I
on top of my research, I carry several senior leadership role
and I also have a lot of international collaboration
projects required me to travel constantly, OK, around the
world. And I also need to manage three
young kids at home. So you can imagine this is like
a jungle. And then you will have problems
from your family which will affect your work.
OK, For example, my boy is sick. I cannot deliver the class
eventually I cannot go in. Then get that gets back to
Rochelle's earliest point. Do you have do you do your group
members understand your situation?
Do you have alliance which could help you step up to help your
work? OK, at least to temporarily help
you to teach for a while. OK, so all this will help you to
prevent, to get into the point of burnout, OK?
So first of all, understand yourself, set the boundary
before you step in, before you enter into that point, ask for
help. I think that is very important.
And then don't believe because you ask for help, you are a weak
person. I think this kind of mindset we
need to change, OK? Because that not just affect
yourself, if you don't ask for help, you eventually affect the
entirety. Because if you burn out, that
means you're not coming back for a long period of time or you get
sick, OK, That is really not, not good.
OK. So I think that kind of mindset
we we really need to advocate and change so that people are
more open to share their challenges and ask for help.
I think it's clear that we're everyone is under different
types of stress. So you have the stress of your
getting your job done, you have outside of work stresses, but
also something we shall said about you have the stress of the
project you're working on, but there might be organisational
stresses in the background. For example, within it NHS, we
know there's big shifts happening and that's something
you that's beyond your control. So how do you cultivate what a
type of mindset or an attitude towards work way you can almost
deal with that in a sensible way?
Is there anything the three of you have learnt through working
about the type of attitude that can be effective that can help
you successfully deal with stress?
In the midst of all the changes, organisational changes, but
you've got no, no control over, I think the best thing for you
is just stay open to learning through the chaos.
Stay open to learning and see this sometimes not too much
stress, the level of stress. See that as an opportunity to
grow, grow from from one level to another, for example, and
just making yourself adaptable because change is constant.
Like you say, a lot of decisions are being made at an
organisational level. There's nothing you can do about
it. But what you can do is something
you you've got control over is how well you deliver and how,
how a thing open to change, making sure you're learning and
adapting and growing so so that when you, when things are
settled down, you feel you know you're not you're not left
behind as to say you're you're still developing through the
chaos. That sounds brilliant.
How can I pin you down? Because what does that actually
mean in in reality? Like learning or growing from
something that could seem quite daunting?
How do you actually put that into practise as an individual?
I feel everything as an opportunity, no matter how
difficult it is. I may be asked to do a task that
I've never done before, but I know I will definitely gain
something out of it. I might not enjoy it, for
example, but I do it and I'll that's the skill that I've got
now to use in in my next chapter in life, for example.
It's like how you frame it, framing something that could
seem really daunting or difficult, so you don't want to
do something. I will go away with having
learned something, either a technical skill or a personal
skill or something. There's something useful I'll
take away that's really great. I'm I'm going to try and take
that mindset on. I think we call the growth
mindset and I always frame it. I also make it as OK, you have a
challenge, then that means you have opportunity.
But I always tell myself it's just a matter of time.
I will master OK. Keep.
Coming back to myself, it's difficult, but it's just a
matter of time. Give myself a little bit time to
grow into that space. So keep telling yourself like
this will push you regulatively hard or more positive.
Stay positive around that and on top of all this, I how I manage
it. I think I always try to tie up,
although that situation is stressful, but whether that
could bring a deeper sense of purpose that align with what I
try to do, what I try to achieve for my life, for my work.
So, for example, like I, I, I my vision is to help workplace to
become safer, healthier and more inclusive.
This is my vision for my work. I try to align that with what I
need to cope with. OK are the challenges whatever
that come through. I think that is quite work quite
well for myself because you know, you're working for
something bigger than just the task in front of you now.
And the other tips I think is quite useful is really try to
tie up with your personal strengths when you tackle with
the challenge, whether you can bring out the best of yourself,
no matter you're good at dealing with people, you're you're you
like to learn, OK, Whether you can tie all this up with what
you need to tackle. I think that also helps me along
the journey because that will fuel the energy, not just drain
you down. OK.
So those are the stuff that I think is quite, quite useful.
It's really useful, Rochelle. Was anything you wanted to add?
Yeah. I was just going to say for me,
the lack of control, you know, the uncertainty, so I can deal
with uncertainty in my projects because it's not directly
happening to me. But things like organisational
change, those kind of leadership changes and that kind of future
unknowingness. I would usually, you know,
there's no time scales often or you know, you just have to wait,
you have to sit back. So as a project manager who
likes to be in control, I've kind of really had to learn the
skill of relax, what will be will be and we just need to roll
with it, which is totally alien to everything in my body.
So I need to know what's happening.
I need to be in control and I need to have the end goal, you
know, the end date and be working towards it.
So. Yeah, I've had to really change.
And I think as I've, as I've gotten older and more used to,
there are lots of changes that have happened.
You kind of learn to kind of roll with it and, and just go
through it rather than stressing about each day.
So and, and what, where, where we're going to be in, in six
months or a year or whatever. So yeah, it's quite a skill to
just relax. So some really brilliant advice
here. Can I ask you, has anyone
learned anything about how to say no?
So a first of all, feeling that you should push back.
And then how do you say no to something in the right way?
Because I imagine you need to say it in the right way because
you don't want to go away fearful that you've upset your
boss or you said I'm not capable or I'm failing.
So but yeah, it's you recognise that you have boundaries that
you need to protect and it's just too much.
So if any of you picked up anything about how to say no in
the right way or just being able to push back to people.
To me counter off the choice for that.
Counter off of the choice. What do you mean by that?
Say let's begin negotiations, you're saying.
Yes, because just give you an example.
I handle a lot of projects, I mean research projects, and then
I need to handle a lot of stakeholders for each of the
projects. They would try their best to
change the scope of the project. And then I would just tell them,
OK, if you want to change A, you want to additionally you want to
add A into the scope, then you need to trade off B originally
on the scope. What do you think about that?
Then it is, oh, actually you're right, that is more important.
So that's why I say it's giving them it sounds like a choice.
OK, Yeah. Well, actually, yes, you're
right, it's negotiation. OK, Veronica picked up.
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, when it comes to resourcing, I think that's the
biggest challenge where you're being asked to do more, get
involved in more than two, three projects.
It's, it sounds easier saying it, but actually have the facts,
the, you know, the factual information.
I've got this project to deliver.
It requires so much time for me to do it.
Break it down and communicate it to them.
Actually put it on paper, Communicate it to whether it be
your resource manager or your line manager and see how they
respond to it. If if you've got it written down
and it makes sense, it's highly unlikely someone's going to say,
actually, you still need to do five extra projects or five
extra tasks. I feel like having that in
writing definitely does help in, in, in winning the battle to say
actually, I, I absolutely can't, can't pick this up for this
reason. It's visible when you so show
someone something visually. It's really difficult to say
actually, no, you know it. We still need you to do it.
Well, it's, it becomes a, a wee problem, not just my problem.
So what do we, what can we do, what extra resources can we get
to, you know, to, to deliver this?
And this is where the organisations then come in.
It depends on what type of organisation you're working for.
Some, some might just say, look, this is it, you have to do it,
we've got nobody else to do it. But then you then have to start
reflecting again. Is this where I want to be?
But we are problem solvers too. So as project professionals, we
are problem solvers. So I'm always of the mindset
that saying no is not a weakness.
But if I'm going to say no, I can come up with some some
strategies or some plan for what the alternatives can be.
So for example, I would go to colleagues who I know may have
more capacity or may be able to support me.
And I'm not just going to go with the problem.
I'm going to try and come and go with the solution because I
think that that always is, is favourable rather than pushing
the problem back to your line manager or your leader to say,
look, I just can't do this. If you are able to have a plan
for the alternatives, I think that often helps as well.
Because it, you're right, it isn't a me isn't isn't just a me
problem, it's a we problem. But I can also facilitate in
that because they my my manager is a programme manager.
So he has a programme of projects that he has to manage.
So by just having the things that are causing me stress and
trying to offload them on someone else, it can be
detrimental to the rest of the team or other people.
So try to strategize how to solve some of these problems
too. Just wrapping up now, if there's
one thing that you'd like listeners like us all to take
away from, from your whole experience of managing stress
and avoiding burnout, what would that one thing be?
Clara, I'd like to ask you that. I would say dialogue.
I mean, keep open communication and as a leader, as a project
manager, create a psychological safety space so that people are
willing to talk to you. I think that is very important.
How do you do that? Everyone talks about creating a
psychological safe site. Is it partly role modelling
yourself what that means? Yes, I think role modelling is
very important. I mean, no matter.
You. Really doing more mentoring, OK,
for people in your group and as well as if you are going back to
the stress management, you are the symbol of taking off, OK.
You are the person who really take off in a visible way so
that people will know, OK, she's serious about that.
He is. She is serious about work life
balance. I think that those are the
symbolic meaning as a leader we should be aware of.
Thank you, Michelle. What would what would be your
one thing that you'd like us to go?
Home with. I'm definitely of the opinion
that a problem shared is a problem halved.
That old saying there you don't struggle alone.
And also by identifying your own triggers, it's one of the most
important things that you can do because you will be able to know
yourself better than than anyone else.
And also what is about to tip you over the edge so you can put
in place measures that can help to prevent you getting, you
know, pushed over the edge so you can ask for support and
communicate. So sharing your problems isn't a
weakness. You know you people.
We need support in every aspect of our lives, so it's important.
Can I ask how you protect yourself now?
So are you very religious about logging off or having certain
work hours? Or do you make sure you make
time to do other things outside of work that you know relieves
stress? Yeah.
So for me, I, I and like I said, I need to know what's going on
and things like that. So I actually do the opposite.
And I'm sure that you ladies were probably going to say this
is not good for me. Things like on a Sunday night, I
may check my emails and I know advocate for that, but but this
is what helps me to plan my week.
So there's no unexpected. Well, there will be unexpected
things happening, but I'm I'm aware of what's going on.
So it's really individual. So things like for me after I
will change, change outlook. If I'm in the office, I change
out of my work clothes and try to disassociate my home life
from my work life. But I do check my emails, you
know, but I'm not as I was before where I'd go on holiday
and be thinking of work and and working and to the point where I
was dreaming about my projects, which is not everybody.
So. Yeah, I've definitely learned to
balance that because I know my, I know my triggers, I know what
will happen and you know, I don't want to get back into that
place or burnout. So yeah, it's very individual as
to what even as to what we can do to prevent stress.
But yeah, definitely logging off if if you you know, logging off
and disassociating your private, your personal life from your
work life is important. I think that's a great point
because we're bombarded with so much information about what you
should hate, what you should be doing, you should be doing this
and that, but actually you should be doing what's right for
you. And if that means going against
the advice that's given, it doesn't matter because it's what
works for you. It's what works for you.
Yeah. OK, Veronica, what?
What? What would be your takeaway?
Everything in life hinges on a good plan.
So whether you plan on going on holiday and checking your
emails, that's fine as long as you do plan to say, look, I will
check my emails at this time and then take time off actually to
switch off. That's why I laughed when
Rochelle was saying I'm on holiday.
I do check my emails on a Sunday.
As long as that's what works for you, I think that's that's
brilliant, but it's planning. Planning is critical.
You say, I'll plan to take some time out to do whatever it is
that helps you recharge, whether it's going to the gym, whether
it's spending time with your son or whatever you do to, to
recharge and, you know, re energise ready to get back to
work. Plan to do that.
And also plan for a resource to take over the work that you're
doing when you're on holiday, for example, they help you sleep
easy because I'm, I'm sure everyone goes through this
situation where you're on holiday and you think, you know,
I didn't do that or something needs to be done.
You know, it's planning. Plan for a resource to pick that
up while you're away. It gives you that Peace of Mind.
Thank you so much. We've had we've covered so much
ground. There's been so many brilliant
tips that you've passed on. And I've never done a podcast
with so many fantastic sound bites.
It just leads me to to say thank you.
Thanks everyone for joining us today.
And I wanted to thank listeners for for listening to us today to
the APM podcast. I'd also like to mention the
Workplace Well-being profile on the APM website,
whichisapm.org.uk. And and don't forget to look out
for more episodes or to rate and review us wherever you get your
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