1 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:18,120 Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for 2 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,280 the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm 3 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:25,000 the editor of Project, APM's quarterly journal and your host. 4 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:29,200 In this podcast, we're taking on the subject of stress, how to 5 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,600 enjoy it, how to manage it, and how to deal with too much of it 6 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,600 in the right way. We'll also be giving advice to 7 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,560 the project leaders among you about how to manage stress 8 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:42,000 levels within your teams. I'm very pleased to welcome my 9 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,760 guests today Clara Chung, lead author on the APM Report The 10 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,480 Well-being of Project Professionals and Reader in 11 00:00:48,480 --> 00:00:51,440 Engineering Management at the University of Manchester, 12 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,200 Veronica Sicombe, a project manager at Mott McDonald who's 13 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,920 currently based in Saudi Arabia, and Rochelle Sampson Clark, a 14 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:02,160 business intelligence project manager for NHS South Central 15 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:04,120 and West Commissioning Support Unit. 16 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,640 Veronica and Rochelle are the members of APM's Women in 17 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,640 Project Management Interest Network and are active in its 18 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,000 well-being subgroups. So welcome everyone. 19 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:16,800 Managing stress, maintaining work life balance, and at the 20 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:19,280 more extreme end, avoiding burnout is a modern 21 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:23,520 preoccupation. The 2025 APM Salary and Market 22 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,360 Trend Survey showed, for example, just how important 23 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:30,200 flexible working is to project professionals in their desire to 24 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:32,480 maintain some kind of work life balance. 25 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,880 Yet let's not forget that the right level of stress can be 26 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,040 enjoyable and motivating for many of you working in project 27 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,920 management. So I would like to invite you 28 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,880 car as leadles from the report on well-being for APM. 29 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,760 I'd like to invite you to tell us what the most important 30 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,920 things you discovered during research and what has changed, 31 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:58,160 do you think, in within work since that was published? 32 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:00,280 Yeah. Thanks, Emma. 33 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:05,240 Actually, when we carry out the APM study a few years ago, one 34 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,199 of the biggest discoveries was just how much project 35 00:02:08,199 --> 00:02:11,520 professionals were struggling compared to the general 36 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,240 workforce. They're less resilient, more at 37 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:18,560 risk at the psychological strain and under string very great 38 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:22,440 pressure on unrealistic workload, poor communication and 39 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:24,160 very difficult work condition as well. 40 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,040 This was like important evidence based because at the time, 41 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,840 well-being in project management was still, I would say, an 42 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:33,840 emerging topic. Many people thought it's just a 43 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,480 nice to have rather than something fundamental to project 44 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:39,760 delivery. But since then, I think 45 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:44,160 awareness grow, particularly the pandemic, the shift of the 46 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:48,440 hybrid work, flexible working and more recently digitalization 47 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:53,200 using more AI have been made well-being impossible to be 48 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,000 ignored. But new risks have also been 49 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,320 emerged because like very blurred boundary of digital 50 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,360 overloading. And then also new opportunity 51 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,320 come such as as I said, flexible work patterns. 52 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:09,520 But what hasn't been changed enough, I would say, is 53 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:13,640 well-being is still too often treated as an individual 54 00:03:13,640 --> 00:03:16,200 responsibility rather than a systematic 1. 55 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:21,320 So my argument is that it needs to be reframed as a strategic 56 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,400 enabler of project success, every bit as important as time, 57 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:29,920 cost and quality, but not just like nice to have to be. 58 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,240 It's really important points there and something you talked 59 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,480 about, the systemic level of stress. 60 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:39,880 I think all too often individuals feel as though if 61 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,520 they're struggling with their workload or the stress, they 62 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,760 feel it's because they're failing somehow that they're not 63 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,680 approaching it well. When actually I think this is 64 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,720 most of the responsibility should be on the organisation or 65 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:57,080 the OR the individual manager or leader to make sure that they 66 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,360 are giving a sensible workload or to give support to people in 67 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,400 in in managing them. Is that something that really 68 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:08,320 came out from the report? Yes, that's the strongest 69 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:11,960 message actually from from the the report because the data 70 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,840 actually show the main sources of stress were systematic. 71 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,200 So things like unrealistic deadline that you already talked 72 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,440 about briefly, lack of resources, inadequate training 73 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,440 or poor communication, these sites think it's not issue for 74 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,960 individual that could simply solve by being resilience or 75 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,080 work harder. They are symptoms of how 76 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:36,280 projects are designed and deliver. 77 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,520 So that's why we argue actually in the report for the 78 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,720 intervention to improve the well-being level that should be 79 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,880 at 2 levels. So at the organisational level 80 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,680 the responsibility is to decide healthier system. 81 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,280 So for example, I plan realistically, allocate 82 00:04:53,280 --> 00:04:57,360 resources properly, create supportive leadership, make 83 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,320 well-being as the part of management and culture. 84 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,840 And at the individual level, of course, coping strategies like 85 00:05:03,840 --> 00:05:08,600 time and energy and management are valuable, but they should be 86 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,600 the last line of defence I would say, not just not the first one. 87 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:15,920 So we found the structural change at organisational level, 88 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:20,840 organisations basically risking placing the entire burden on the 89 00:05:20,840 --> 00:05:23,400 individual. It's both unfair, I think it's 90 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,600 also unsustainable. Is there a certain type of 91 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,240 person who's drawn to project management, someone who actually 92 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,360 enjoys the adrenaline of a deadline, like a certain amount 93 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,280 of stress, the challenge of it, it can you. 94 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,160 Was there anything you noticed in your research that that you 95 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,480 could characterise this kind of broad community of people by? 96 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:46,200 Do they love a bit of stress? I will say on this report, but 97 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,080 just based on my personal experience, OK, because I also 98 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,720 work in industry for 10 years before I become an academic, 99 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,160 even I become an academics, I'm still teaching project 100 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:58,440 management. I think yes, there's typical, 101 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,640 there's certain types of people really enjoys being a project 102 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:03,520 professional. First of all, people who like 103 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:08,120 change, people who think of challenges, yes, we have that. 104 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:12,800 I think that kind of people tend to get into this career path 105 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,920 easier. But still we need to carefully 106 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,280 manage this. Although we enjoy being 107 00:06:18,280 --> 00:06:21,520 challenged but doesn't mean we can chronically being challenged 108 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:26,720 and without boundaries. Veronica, could you tell us a 109 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:31,160 bit about your role and the kinds of stress you're under and 110 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,400 how much do you enjoy being a little bit stressed or? 111 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,680 Right. So Emma, I'm a multidisciplinary 112 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,280 project manager and I'm currently based in Riyadh, Saudi 113 00:06:43,280 --> 00:06:46,160 Arabia. So my role is a blend of 114 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:50,160 planning, coordination of multidisciplinary design teams, 115 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:54,640 managing schedules, budgets and managing stakeholders who 116 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:56,160 generally don't want to be managed. 117 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,560 So you can imagine there's a lot of stress that's associated with 118 00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:04,600 working with humans and the deadlines that are associated 119 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,760 with project management. So that obviously requires 120 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,800 flexibility and structure at the same time, which can be quite 121 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,480 challenging most times, but you enjoy it. 122 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,720 So in terms of stresses that I face, I'd say trying to get up 123 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:23,120 to speed with project requirements as the project is 124 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,320 progressing. As you know, construction is a 125 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:29,640 very fast-paced industry. No project is pausing for you to 126 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,040 get up to feed with everything. So you have to do that 127 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:34,640 consistently as the project develops. 128 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,680 And then there's also the stresses that's associated with 129 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:42,480 the stakeholder management. Stakeholders generally don't 130 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,520 want to be managed. They've got their own 131 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:48,680 requirements, they've got their own deadlines and they have 132 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,800 their own expectations. So that that can cause a lot of 133 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,760 stress on my side. But having said that, I do enjoy 134 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:00,720 the stress that comes with it. It is counterbalanced by the by 135 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:04,080 achieving these deliverables, for example, and deadlines and 136 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:09,600 you know, getting those wins, small wins do do make me happy. 137 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:12,840 How? How long have you been working 138 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:14,360 with him? Project management. 139 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,200 So I started off as an architectural design 140 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,240 technologist. I've been in the eight years now 141 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:23,280 in construction, but I've been doing outright project 142 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:27,040 management for four years. What have you learned about how 143 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:31,480 to manage stress for you as you become more confident in your 144 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,600 ability to work, which you kind of is, I guess as natural as you 145 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:36,679 climb a career lad and you gain more experience. 146 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:41,159 But is there any kind of one thing that stands out in terms 147 00:08:41,159 --> 00:08:44,840 of how you think about stress and and your workload that you 148 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,200 perhaps wish you told a younger version of yourself or people 149 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,040 who are kind of early on in their career? 150 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,760 It's knowing that stress is inevitable. 151 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,640 Whatever you do, you know, that's one thing that keeps me 152 00:08:58,640 --> 00:08:59,920 going. It's inevitable. 153 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,840 The the key is managing that stress. 154 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:07,480 So I've come to have some sort of boundaries to to know when to 155 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:11,480 say actually I need support from my team to deliver the whatever 156 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,400 the project, whether it's the fee earning project or a big 157 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,640 project, whatever it will be. So it's knowing my boundaries 158 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,120 and knowing when, when to shout out for help, for example, and 159 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:25,680 not just keeping internally and trying to to thrive without the 160 00:09:25,680 --> 00:09:27,960 support because that can be detrimental. 161 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,600 Absolutely. I'm Keir Saski, is now your 162 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,400 working not in the UK, you're in Saudi Arabia. 163 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,160 So I guess throughout your career you've faced new 164 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,720 stresses, so there's a new stress of working within a new 165 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,800 culture. And how has that been for you? 166 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,480 Has that presented a whole new level of challenge that you 167 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:51,960 haven't had previously? Absolutely so so I was with Matt 168 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,880 McDonald and in in the UK decided to relocate to to Saudi 169 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,880 Arabia when I first joined the company in Saudi Arabia, 170 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:03,680 everything, even the smallest of task would be quite stressful. 171 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,600 This is this was all dependent on what was going on outside of 172 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,600 my actual work. So it's the the, the stresses 173 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,040 associated with relocating. So trying to settle in, trying 174 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,680 to find a home, you know, just trying to navigate the, the 175 00:10:18,680 --> 00:10:22,400 culture, the working culture and just the general culture here in 176 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:27,560 Saudi Arabia. So, but year on, I'm more 177 00:10:27,560 --> 00:10:32,080 settled now, even if the project is challenging, it's not as 178 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,640 stressful because I, I'm now settled in. 179 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:38,840 So the point I'm trying to make is external factors do play a 180 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:42,240 big role in, in the stress or you know, the, the project 181 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:46,960 stress that you face. Michelle, tell us a bit about 182 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:51,640 your role and the kinds of thing complexities that you have to 183 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,120 manage and and the workload you have, the various stresses you 184 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,320 face in your role every day. Yeah. 185 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,760 So I manage digital and data analytics projects within the 186 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:03,680 NHS. So I think everyone is aware of 187 00:11:03,680 --> 00:11:07,720 the challenges within the NHS, the usual, the tight budgets, 188 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:09,880 the tight deadlines, those kind of things. 189 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,440 And I think in most projects, as been mentioned before, the the 190 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:17,640 stakeholder management elements, those varying requirements, the 191 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:19,600 push and the pull of stakeholders in different 192 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,160 directions and things, which is something as project 193 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,600 professionals is really important to try and master, not 194 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:29,240 just for our for our projects, but also for our lives 195 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,840 personally, how we manage the conflicts in those different 196 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:37,160 situations at work and at home. So yeah, I think those are 197 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,760 probably the primary and also things like uncertainty change. 198 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,720 So you did mention that we love change as project managers. 199 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:49,320 I think to a certain degree that things like uncertainty, 200 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,360 organisational change, changes in leadership structure, those 201 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,680 kind of things are challenging. And at the moment we're kind of 202 00:11:55,680 --> 00:11:58,520 facing that in the NHS and other organisations are probably 203 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:02,440 facing the same thing. So those are sort of the main 204 00:12:02,680 --> 00:12:04,520 stresses that I'm facing at the moment. 205 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:09,360 But I think that I was drawn to project management because I've 206 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:15,280 always really enjoyed being in control and the stress, well, a 207 00:12:15,560 --> 00:12:18,640 healthy level of stress of managing multiple projects, 208 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,280 managing things in my life, and just being in control of that. 209 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,600 And I think quite a lot of project managers are drawn to it 210 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,920 because of that type of lifestyle that they live. 211 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,840 Because I'm, I moved into project management later on 212 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,480 because I realise it's something that's quite suited to my 213 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:40,760 personality. So yeah, I think that I enjoy 214 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:44,800 stress, but I've had a lot of learning and I've adapted from 215 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,960 where I was when I first started out and, and, and the challenges 216 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,400 that I've had in managing stress. 217 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,400 I've definitely adapted my style, but it has been difficult 218 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,480 to sort of let go of that. I need to be in control and I 219 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:04,240 can manage all this myself. I'd like to invite all of you to 220 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:08,040 ask how generally how stressful you think project management is 221 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:12,200 to working as a profession and how that does depend on where 222 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:15,640 you are in your career. So Veronica, you've ready talks 223 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:17,720 a little bit about like when you're starting out in your 224 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:19,960 career. But would you all agree that 225 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:23,080 that that perhaps when you're early on in your career that 226 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,160 that's the key? That's when you're first exposed 227 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,800 to a lot of stress, I imagine, and you're maybe foundering 228 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,840 around as to what the expectations are that you can't 229 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,840 say no to your boss. But then equally at mid 230 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,560 management and senior levels, there might be different types 231 00:13:37,560 --> 00:13:41,000 of stresses you face. So I don't know who wants to 232 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:45,680 who'd, who'd like to tell a bit of, you know, well, I think 233 00:13:45,680 --> 00:13:49,920 that. I think that stress, it really 234 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:52,200 varies. So you will have stress in all 235 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,360 any way you work. I don't particularly think that 236 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,840 project management is more stressful because for example, 237 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,440 you could have great budgets, you could have realistic time 238 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,200 scales, a great team of people that you work with, your 239 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:05,560 stakeholders and your project team. 240 00:14:05,560 --> 00:14:09,520 But what we have is we have those identified risks that 241 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:11,760 could come into fruition throughout our projects. 242 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,280 And it's those and the new issues that arise, which can 243 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:19,200 then cause a project that was going really, really well and 244 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,680 low stress, everything flowing nicely to then become quite 245 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,920 stressful. So it it's that uncertainty, the 246 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:30,280 risks and then the issues in our projects that probably might 247 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,000 throw us over the edge. But I would definitely say that, 248 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,320 you know, all industries are going to have different levels 249 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,920 of stress. But I think because we do work 250 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,080 in such a multidisciplinary way with different teams and, and 251 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:47,440 large groups and, and these restraints that it can be quite 252 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,160 stressful. But also what your point about 253 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,680 depending on, on where you are at in your career? 254 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,160 I definitely remember when I started, I wanted to prove 255 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:00,760 myself and I wasn't, and I wasn't a young, I didn't start 256 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,240 young in the profession. So I was actually quite 257 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,360 headstrong. And you know, I had a lot of 258 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,840 life experience, a lot of job work experience and stuff like 259 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,000 that. So and a family and a child. 260 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,360 So I was a mother at that time, which is the the difference. 261 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,560 I think if you're starting early career and you want to really 262 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:21,480 make your mark, you're a yes person. 263 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:26,000 You don't want to be seen as oh, I'm not able to do this. 264 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:28,880 I can't show any weakness by saying no to a task. 265 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,320 I don't have any authority at that stage in my career. 266 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:37,400 And if I say no, then people think I'm possibly incompetent. 267 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,320 So I think there is that challenge in early careers, but 268 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:44,720 it does depend on when you start your career, when you say early 269 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:49,160 careers in project management. Absolutely, but that obviously 270 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,280 just picking up on what you said, Rochelle, that can be very 271 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:57,560 detrimental being a yes person. It's now you do have to prove 272 00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:58,600 yourself. Absolutely. 273 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,000 You have to show people your capabilities, but you have to 274 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:05,200 take a step back and reflect and and and take note that, you 275 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,160 know, stress can lead to burnout. 276 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,880 So just picking up on on the fact that yes, it does stress 277 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:15,000 does differ depending on where you are in your career, but it 278 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,040 also depends on the individual's character. 279 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,840 So what might be stressful to me might be energising to you for 280 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,120 you, Rochelle. And I think that's where we need 281 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:29,280 to make sure we're not having a unified measure of stress for 282 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,640 all project professionals. You know, we need to be to be 283 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:37,280 taken into consideration the human aspect of project delivery 284 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,560 in in making sure that we are recognising that as leaders or 285 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:44,920 as organisation on an organisational level. 286 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,840 It's learning about yourself and how you how you deal with 287 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:51,400 stress, what kinds of stress you like. 288 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:55,720 And so becoming more self aware, I guess it's key to communicate 289 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,080 that to whoever's managing you or who whoever you answer to. 290 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,600 And it might be more than one person, but that can you have to 291 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,839 be pretty brave to be able to do that, unless you work in an 292 00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:09,760 organisation where it's set up, but that support is set up and, 293 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,319 and, and they're, they're ready to help you. 294 00:17:12,319 --> 00:17:14,839 Clara, what did you have any thoughts around this? 295 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,920 Yeah, Actually we're just going back to your original question 296 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,040 around the stage of career, because when we do our last 297 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:27,359 report, the APM study around well-being, we define early 298 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:29,760 career. Early career, the definition for 299 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:34,480 us is just getting to this profession, three to five years 300 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:36,960 of experience and then afterwards you progress to 301 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,880 middle level, you start to have the measurement responsibility a 302 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:41,520 little bit more and then you go to the senior. 303 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,920 So we found actually the most stressful group is the early 304 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,680 career profession. And then some of the possible 305 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,920 reason behind that, I think Veronica and and Michelle 306 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:55,040 already talk about is the lack of control that they feel 307 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,480 because they always need to say yes, OK, and then unclear 308 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:00,040 expectation. They don't know how to ask 309 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:04,760 question to clear, OK, what is the expectation on them and the 310 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,240 pressure to prove themselves. I think they both also talk 311 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:11,040 about it while they progress to the mid career profession, they 312 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,840 tend to feel also very squeezed by multiple projects, people 313 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,880 management, delivery deadlines and then they are all multiples 314 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,800 because usually you just handle multiple projects, right? 315 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,480 When they progress to senior, it's not saying that they have 316 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,320 nothing to do, OK. They still need to balance the 317 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:29,920 weight of strategic accountability, overall 318 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,200 portfolio performance, but still what they feel is they feel more 319 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,760 control over what they can achieve so that possibly 320 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:40,160 alleviate the stress level that they experience. 321 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,440 When it comes to different stresses you face in your work, 322 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,920 perhaps sometimes it's not just about how to having too much 323 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:49,920 work to do. Can it be a lack of work as 324 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,840 well? Yeah, definitely. 325 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,520 I think that it's not just about managing multiple projects at a 326 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:01,600 time that sometimes there, there is a lack of opportunity or a 327 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:09,080 lack of understanding of where you're going or, or seeing what 328 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,520 you're, where what you're actually doing is going to take 329 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,080 you. And a lot of organisations there 330 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,080 isn't, there aren't those opportunities, there aren't 331 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,040 training opportunities or opportunities to progress. 332 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,520 And I think that can be just as stressful as having to having 333 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,640 work overload or also not having enough work as well. 334 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:32,880 So having those periods of no growth when you're kind of left 335 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,120 to your own devices when projects projects are quiet, 336 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,920 that can be equally stressful because a lot of people need 337 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:44,760 need things to do and to keep their mind going and also to to 338 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,600 just know that their careers are going to be moving in in a 339 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:52,480 forward trajectory. So yeah, I think that can also 340 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,800 cause stress in a lot of project professionals lives too. 341 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,480 Yeah, it's horrible feeling stuck when you feel stuck in a 342 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,360 place where you like, you say you're not being stretched 343 00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:05,280 enough or you're just treading water and. 344 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:07,480 You're right. That's a, that's a kind of 345 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:09,040 different kind of stress, isn't it? 346 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:13,320 But then if but either if the other two if you like to comment 347 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:18,040 on that. Stress is not necessarily a bad 348 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,680 thing. OK, we need certain level of 349 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:25,280 stress in order to perform well, but we're just talking about 350 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:29,200 excessive level of stress that leads you to burn our situation, 351 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,360 which is not good. So like what Richelle was 352 00:20:32,360 --> 00:20:34,800 talking about, I think is falling into the group that 353 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,560 people not getting enough stress to perform well. 354 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,400 They don't get enough training, they don't get enough 355 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:42,240 opportunities to grow themselves. 356 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,080 I think that falls into that before getting too stressful at 357 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,360 the other end of the graph, because the graph should be in 358 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,280 AU shape. OK, you need certain level of 359 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,760 stress in order to make your performance at the top. 360 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,880 I think everyone needs the level of stress to, to, to, to get 361 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,400 better and better each time to flex the, the muscle, the brain 362 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:07,480 muscle, you need some level of stress, but not a prolonged 363 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:12,720 period of stress. It helps if you can see, say for 364 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:14,920 example, you've got deliverable, you've got deadlines. 365 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:17,960 Once you hit the deadlines, you're seeing, you know, light 366 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,400 at the end of the tunnel and that can be manageable. 367 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,920 So, you know, you've got, you've got to go through some level of 368 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:25,880 stress for a certain amount of time. 369 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,160 And after that you come out, you're winning, you're 370 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,680 celebrating your wins, you're celebrating the fact that you've 371 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:32,880 hit the deadline and your client is happy. 372 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,200 And you know, there's, yeah, stuff like that. 373 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,040 Just going back to Rochelle's point on not having anything to 374 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,760 do that can be very detrimental to people because then you, you, 375 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:48,080 you sit down and you're looking at your peers, for example, 376 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,040 their their stress, they're being stretched constantly. 377 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,480 And you start comparing yourself, what am I doing? 378 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,960 You start questioning your, your, your, your existence 379 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,800 really within your career. Did I make the right choice? 380 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,760 Especially if you've come from a different career path, you've 381 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,440 joined, say, project management from say, whether it be 382 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,240 architectural technology like I did. 383 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,160 I come in and I've got nothing to do. 384 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,520 I will definitely start comparing myself to my peers, 385 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,080 you know, maybe, yeah, you know, doubting myself and doubting my 386 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,400 decision. So it's definitely important to 387 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:27,760 have some some level of stress. What should the best 388 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:32,440 organisations be doing in terms of watching out the stress? 389 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,000 And too much stress will burnout within their team. 390 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,280 So is there any advice you would give to project managers or 391 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:44,360 project leaders about how to be the kind of boss that a person 392 00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:48,040 would like to have when it comes to thinking about stress and 393 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,400 overload? Is there any advice you'd pass 394 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,120 on to people like that? Either you've picked up or 395 00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:56,200 you've experienced yourself as someone who's had who's who's 396 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:02,640 got the right support. Yeah, I think, I think a people 397 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,760 centric approach is important when we're talking about stress 398 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:11,400 and delivering projects. You know, understanding people's 399 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,200 different strengths definitely take, you know, as a leader for 400 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,760 managing a project. If I know what my team's 401 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,640 capabilities are, I'm less likely to stress them out and 402 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,200 burn them out because I'm not asking for too much from them. 403 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:29,720 So it's definitely understanding that having these team meetings 404 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:34,040 catch up to, to make sure everyone is understands what 405 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,800 their requirement, what they're having, clear roles and 406 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,600 responsibilities, making sure those are communicated to the 407 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,360 wider team is for me, I think important. 408 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:47,880 Just speaking from experience. I always feel unsettled when I'm 409 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,920 not sure what's required of me. Therefore, clear rules and 410 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:57,800 responsibilities is absolutely fundamental for for to to be 411 00:23:57,800 --> 00:23:59,800 able to deliver as you require them to. 412 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,440 And I guess it's having everyone else understand what you're, 413 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,480 what you've got on your desk. So I've had jobs before. 414 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,000 I had two bosses and one boss didn't know what the other one 415 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,080 was giving me. And it was really confusing and 416 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:15,280 really stressful because I, I was right in the middle and 417 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,200 neither knew how much my work code was. 418 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,080 So I guess the best project teams, everyone knows what 419 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,640 everyone's up against and is supportive. 420 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,960 Tell me a bit about the Boost meetings you have. 421 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,640 Yes, we have the booth. Meetings to set up, to set the 422 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,680 scene for the week. It's really a strategy, a 423 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,320 positive intervention strategy where people can feel heard, you 424 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:42,240 celebrate wins, you talk about what's happening in the week. 425 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,480 And just to give that, to give people that psychological 426 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,680 safety, you know, to be able to, to speak without judgement and, 427 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,840 and develop and that way, it's absolutely brilliant. 428 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:53,560 And I think I'd take it everywhere I go. 429 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:56,760 How long is it? Do you have it at the beginning 430 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:58,560 of the week so you have it on a Monday morning? 431 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,600 Yeah, Sunday morning with it being in Saudi Arabia, but yes, 432 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,440 half an hour and then if we've got more, more to do, would 433 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:11,760 probably take 45 minutes to talk about prospective projects and 434 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:13,680 stuff like that. Yeah, it's a, it's a brilliant 435 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,840 initiative. But as well as that, we also do 436 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,840 have champions, well-being champions within the office and 437 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:25,600 staff council leads to to just to make people aware that they 438 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,360 are people available when you are going through things. 439 00:25:28,360 --> 00:25:30,800 And you need to have that discussion about surrounding 440 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,680 stress, whether it's resourcing, whether you're too, too 441 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:35,000 stretched. So yeah. 442 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,080 Do you feel confident now? How long do you think it takes 443 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:44,000 before you're able to say, look, I need some help because that 444 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,800 can be a really daunting thing to say and realise that it's not 445 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:48,960 your fault. It's not that you're failing, 446 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,280 it's that it's under resourced. Do you feel that in a position 447 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:56,320 where you can say that and that it gets listened to, there's one 448 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,160 thing saying it and some of your boss saying, well, just go on 449 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,760 with it tough. There's no more money or there's 450 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,840 no more resource to actually people listening and being able 451 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,200 to help or explain at least why that help isn't available. 452 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,160 Yeah, it does take a while. And again, just touching up on 453 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:17,280 my previous point, it does depend on the person's character 454 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:22,600 because you you can find an ECP who's very able to, to to say, 455 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,680 look, this is too much for me. I need support for ABC. 456 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,320 And then you can, you can find someone intermediate level 457 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,880 project manager not able to actually say what they require. 458 00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:35,480 So it does character does play into it as well. 459 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,160 You know, having that just to say, actually, I need the 460 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,120 support. This is the situation. 461 00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:43,640 And then wait, when you get to a situation where you have voiced 462 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,440 your concerns and nothing is being done, it then gets to a 463 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,960 point where you need to reflect. Is this what I want to be part 464 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,160 of? Because no mental health is 465 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,760 where you know, no, no job is working mental health. 466 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,400 You do have to take a step back and reflect to see what you 467 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,800 know, what's the best way forward because it can be quite 468 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,240 detrimental. I think Rochelle, you mentioned 469 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,920 that you have been through a burnout and it's recognising not 470 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:13,160 you don't want to get to that level. 471 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,800 What do you do? You have to reflect on you know 472 00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:19,840 where you are, what you need to do moving forward. 473 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:22,200 On that point. As. 474 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,600 Project professionals, we are always taught the importance of 475 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,840 communication and I know that Clara mentioned that there is an 476 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:32,560 organisational responsibility to ensure that our well-being is 477 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,280 being managed and I I fully support that. 478 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:40,720 But I also see the flip side of the fact that as individuals we 479 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,520 need to be better at self advocating for ourselves. 480 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:49,080 We need to actually know our boundaries and also our level of 481 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,440 tolerance. So for example, yeah, IA number 482 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,280 of years ago, actually slightly before I started as a project 483 00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,080 professional, I was managing projects in that role, but I 484 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:05,200 actually went through a period of burnout and stress and low 485 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,880 mood. So it was a part where I was 486 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,160 able to manage loads of work. And you can manage multiple 487 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,440 projects and do it really successfully and thrive on the 488 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,200 stress. But the minute something 489 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,000 external happens in your personal life, something 490 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,600 unexpected happens, that's sort of what might tick you over the 491 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:25,160 edge. And that's what happened to me. 492 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,840 So these things were going on in the background at home and at 493 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,520 home, at work, I'm still trying to manage and I still have this 494 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,800 responsibility because all this time I've been so successful at 495 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,840 managing these projects. It's absolutely still required 496 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,320 of me. And at that point, I wasn't 497 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,160 particularly good at communicating. 498 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,280 I thought, you know, well, I've been good at managing these 499 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,520 projects for so long, I need to maintain this. 500 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,160 But also, I had no room to breathe with everything that 501 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,960 else that was going on at home. So, and I think that that 502 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,800 happens in a lot of circumstances, but we need to be 503 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:04,680 better at communicating. It's a key project skill to 504 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,160 have. But if we don't, if we don't 505 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:12,600 know our own boundaries. So that kind of taught me my 506 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,040 level of tolerance and I kind of needed to be to get to that 507 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:20,880 point and to get to burn out and, and that level of poor 508 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,640 well-being to know that this I'm not, I can't get back to this 509 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,000 level once it starts to get to this point, it's time to put 510 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,840 some things into place to sort of manage that. 511 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,480 And that included, you know, communicating, letting people 512 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,240 around me know what was going on. 513 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,160 Was that quite hard to do? Is there any advice about how to 514 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:42,800 do that well that you've learned? 515 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,560 Do do people tend to really fear it? 516 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,280 But when they sit down with someone often find that people 517 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:53,320 can be very supportive? I've been really lucky with who 518 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,280 then the where I've worked. So I worked in mental health. 519 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,360 So there was that general understanding before I moved 520 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:04,200 into project management of the need to support people and 521 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,480 people's differences and, and that kind of thing. 522 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:09,720 And that kind of gave me the foundation, but it didn't stop 523 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,800 me from, from being burnt out and, and reaching that level. 524 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,480 But what it did help was the fact that I could always 525 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,440 communicate and I there was, there were people around me that 526 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,680 would support me. So for example, I used the 527 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,560 workplace employee assistance programmes. 528 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:32,400 So that included cognitive behavioural therapy and 529 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:37,120 counselling, which was part of the, the things I did to help to 530 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:41,520 manage my well-being. But it is, I find that finding 531 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,040 allies, I would, I'll use the term allies, but finding people 532 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,040 within your organisation or building good relationships is 533 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,560 really key. So a lot of us, we do say, oh, 534 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,360 keep your work and your home life separate. 535 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,920 But actually, if people don't know anything about you, they 536 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,560 don't know you know your lifestyle, they don't even know 537 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,360 you have children, they don't know you're anything about you, 538 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,760 they're not going to be able to support you in in a reasonable 539 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,880 way. So I think teams leaders need to 540 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,120 learn about their people and vice versa. 541 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,520 So that you know, as as a group of as your project team or as, 542 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,280 as the, the people that you're leading. 543 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,320 You all know your triggers. You all know when you're, you 544 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,280 know, you're getting to that point of sort of no return so 545 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,520 that everyone can kind of support you rather than just 546 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,880 being in your individual silo. You're I'm going to manage this 547 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:37,640 on my own. I don't want anybody to know 548 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,440 about my personal circumstances because it's not a negative. 549 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:46,200 It's not a bad thing to to share these challenges. 550 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:51,120 I suppose Rochelle just picking up on that and working 551 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,680 individually in a silo, no one knowing anything about you. 552 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,520 When you work that way, it's really difficult to, to build 553 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,120 trust. And when you've got trust, it's 554 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,360 easy to work and work to a common goal. 555 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:08,320 That is one of one of the criteria to, to, to building an 556 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,320 effective team. It's that trust knowing each 557 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,120 other outside of work. You don't have to to tell them 558 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:18,040 everything about you, but you, you should be, there should be 559 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,760 some level of trust for, for people, for teams to be 560 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,680 effective and efficient. Otherwise it's just it becomes 561 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,560 impossible, doesn't it, to to work to a common goal without 562 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,120 the trust? Well, Rochelle, I wanted to 563 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:32,440 thank you for sharing that with us. 564 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,240 And also we're touching on some really big things now. 565 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:41,760 Cara, is this we? What should an individual do in 566 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,520 order to prevent getting to where Rochelle was, which is 567 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,560 being burned out because prevention is better than cure. 568 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:51,720 This is much easier said than done. 569 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:57,320 So how can you as an individual know what's right for you and 570 00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,720 protect it? So protect your mental health. 571 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,400 I think. You. 572 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:07,000 Detect the sign where you leave the edge of burnout. 573 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:11,560 OK, just like what Rochelle was talking about. 574 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,480 You know yourself OK whether you have no mood consistently. 575 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,240 You. You feel you lose interest on 576 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,720 the stuff that you're usually you're interested in. 577 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:25,360 So you need to detect this on the sign just like myself, OK, I 578 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:30,160 on top of my research, I carry several senior leadership role 579 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,840 and I also have a lot of international collaboration 580 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:37,280 projects required me to travel constantly, OK, around the 581 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,160 world. And I also need to manage three 582 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:43,720 young kids at home. So you can imagine this is like 583 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,800 a jungle. And then you will have problems 584 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,880 from your family which will affect your work. 585 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,800 OK, For example, my boy is sick. I cannot deliver the class 586 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,240 eventually I cannot go in. Then get that gets back to 587 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,600 Rochelle's earliest point. Do you have do you do your group 588 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:03,480 members understand your situation? 589 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,160 Do you have alliance which could help you step up to help your 590 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,040 work? OK, at least to temporarily help 591 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:14,679 you to teach for a while. OK, so all this will help you to 592 00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:17,960 prevent, to get into the point of burnout, OK? 593 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,199 So first of all, understand yourself, set the boundary 594 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,840 before you step in, before you enter into that point, ask for 595 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,840 help. I think that is very important. 596 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,159 And then don't believe because you ask for help, you are a weak 597 00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:34,520 person. I think this kind of mindset we 598 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,000 need to change, OK? Because that not just affect 599 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,480 yourself, if you don't ask for help, you eventually affect the 600 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,520 entirety. Because if you burn out, that 601 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,440 means you're not coming back for a long period of time or you get 602 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,760 sick, OK, That is really not, not good. 603 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,719 OK. So I think that kind of mindset 604 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,200 we we really need to advocate and change so that people are 605 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,840 more open to share their challenges and ask for help. 606 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,840 I think it's clear that we're everyone is under different 607 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,800 types of stress. So you have the stress of your 608 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,680 getting your job done, you have outside of work stresses, but 609 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,960 also something we shall said about you have the stress of the 610 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,760 project you're working on, but there might be organisational 611 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,120 stresses in the background. For example, within it NHS, we 612 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:25,840 know there's big shifts happening and that's something 613 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:31,000 you that's beyond your control. So how do you cultivate what a 614 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:36,240 type of mindset or an attitude towards work way you can almost 615 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:38,800 deal with that in a sensible way? 616 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,840 Is there anything the three of you have learnt through working 617 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:47,600 about the type of attitude that can be effective that can help 618 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:49,680 you successfully deal with stress? 619 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,600 In the midst of all the changes, organisational changes, but 620 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:58,120 you've got no, no control over, I think the best thing for you 621 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:03,000 is just stay open to learning through the chaos. 622 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,440 Stay open to learning and see this sometimes not too much 623 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:10,080 stress, the level of stress. See that as an opportunity to 624 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:14,760 grow, grow from from one level to another, for example, and 625 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,800 just making yourself adaptable because change is constant. 626 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,200 Like you say, a lot of decisions are being made at an 627 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,080 organisational level. There's nothing you can do about 628 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:25,600 it. But what you can do is something 629 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:30,600 you you've got control over is how well you deliver and how, 630 00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:34,480 how a thing open to change, making sure you're learning and 631 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:39,000 adapting and growing so so that when you, when things are 632 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,840 settled down, you feel you know you're not you're not left 633 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,040 behind as to say you're you're still developing through the 634 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,360 chaos. That sounds brilliant. 635 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:50,640 How can I pin you down? Because what does that actually 636 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:55,400 mean in in reality? Like learning or growing from 637 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,320 something that could seem quite daunting? 638 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,920 How do you actually put that into practise as an individual? 639 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,800 I feel everything as an opportunity, no matter how 640 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,120 difficult it is. I may be asked to do a task that 641 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,280 I've never done before, but I know I will definitely gain 642 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:16,000 something out of it. I might not enjoy it, for 643 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,120 example, but I do it and I'll that's the skill that I've got 644 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:23,360 now to use in in my next chapter in life, for example. 645 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,600 It's like how you frame it, framing something that could 646 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:29,840 seem really daunting or difficult, so you don't want to 647 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,520 do something. I will go away with having 648 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,200 learned something, either a technical skill or a personal 649 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,240 skill or something. There's something useful I'll 650 00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:42,400 take away that's really great. I'm I'm going to try and take 651 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,800 that mindset on. I think we call the growth 652 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:52,160 mindset and I always frame it. I also make it as OK, you have a 653 00:37:52,240 --> 00:37:53,920 challenge, then that means you have opportunity. 654 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,800 But I always tell myself it's just a matter of time. 655 00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,000 I will master OK. Keep. 656 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,360 Coming back to myself, it's difficult, but it's just a 657 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,040 matter of time. Give myself a little bit time to 658 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,560 grow into that space. So keep telling yourself like 659 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,720 this will push you regulatively hard or more positive. 660 00:38:11,720 --> 00:38:18,880 Stay positive around that and on top of all this, I how I manage 661 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,320 it. I think I always try to tie up, 662 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,720 although that situation is stressful, but whether that 663 00:38:25,720 --> 00:38:29,160 could bring a deeper sense of purpose that align with what I 664 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:33,080 try to do, what I try to achieve for my life, for my work. 665 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:39,280 So, for example, like I, I, I my vision is to help workplace to 666 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,000 become safer, healthier and more inclusive. 667 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,720 This is my vision for my work. I try to align that with what I 668 00:38:46,720 --> 00:38:50,480 need to cope with. OK are the challenges whatever 669 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,960 that come through. I think that is quite work quite 670 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,680 well for myself because you know, you're working for 671 00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:00,000 something bigger than just the task in front of you now. 672 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,240 And the other tips I think is quite useful is really try to 673 00:39:04,240 --> 00:39:07,880 tie up with your personal strengths when you tackle with 674 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,960 the challenge, whether you can bring out the best of yourself, 675 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,120 no matter you're good at dealing with people, you're you're you 676 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,240 like to learn, OK, Whether you can tie all this up with what 677 00:39:18,240 --> 00:39:20,720 you need to tackle. I think that also helps me along 678 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,800 the journey because that will fuel the energy, not just drain 679 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:25,800 you down. OK. 680 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,680 So those are the stuff that I think is quite, quite useful. 681 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:34,160 It's really useful, Rochelle. Was anything you wanted to add? 682 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:36,480 Yeah. I was just going to say for me, 683 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:40,000 the lack of control, you know, the uncertainty, so I can deal 684 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,440 with uncertainty in my projects because it's not directly 685 00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:47,040 happening to me. But things like organisational 686 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:50,400 change, those kind of leadership changes and that kind of future 687 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,880 unknowingness. I would usually, you know, 688 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,080 there's no time scales often or you know, you just have to wait, 689 00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,680 you have to sit back. So as a project manager who 690 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:01,960 likes to be in control, I've kind of really had to learn the 691 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:07,320 skill of relax, what will be will be and we just need to roll 692 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:11,080 with it, which is totally alien to everything in my body. 693 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:12,920 So I need to know what's happening. 694 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,200 I need to be in control and I need to have the end goal, you 695 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,920 know, the end date and be working towards it. 696 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,760 So. Yeah, I've had to really change. 697 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:27,120 And I think as I've, as I've gotten older and more used to, 698 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,000 there are lots of changes that have happened. 699 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:34,120 You kind of learn to kind of roll with it and, and just go 700 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:38,560 through it rather than stressing about each day. 701 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:42,840 So and, and what, where, where we're going to be in, in six 702 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,760 months or a year or whatever. So yeah, it's quite a skill to 703 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:50,440 just relax. So some really brilliant advice 704 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:52,320 here. Can I ask you, has anyone 705 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,040 learned anything about how to say no? 706 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:59,400 So a first of all, feeling that you should push back. 707 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,280 And then how do you say no to something in the right way? 708 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,720 Because I imagine you need to say it in the right way because 709 00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:10,640 you don't want to go away fearful that you've upset your 710 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,720 boss or you said I'm not capable or I'm failing. 711 00:41:13,720 --> 00:41:17,440 So but yeah, it's you recognise that you have boundaries that 712 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,240 you need to protect and it's just too much. 713 00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:22,800 So if any of you picked up anything about how to say no in 714 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,160 the right way or just being able to push back to people. 715 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,320 To me counter off the choice for that. 716 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:32,960 Counter off of the choice. What do you mean by that? 717 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,400 Say let's begin negotiations, you're saying. 718 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,680 Yes, because just give you an example. 719 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:41,600 I handle a lot of projects, I mean research projects, and then 720 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:43,920 I need to handle a lot of stakeholders for each of the 721 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:45,960 projects. They would try their best to 722 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,680 change the scope of the project. And then I would just tell them, 723 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:54,240 OK, if you want to change A, you want to additionally you want to 724 00:41:54,240 --> 00:41:57,320 add A into the scope, then you need to trade off B originally 725 00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,480 on the scope. What do you think about that? 726 00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:03,480 Then it is, oh, actually you're right, that is more important. 727 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,920 So that's why I say it's giving them it sounds like a choice. 728 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,960 OK, Yeah. Well, actually, yes, you're 729 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:15,720 right, it's negotiation. OK, Veronica picked up. 730 00:42:15,720 --> 00:42:17,360 Yeah. Yeah. 731 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,280 I mean, when it comes to resourcing, I think that's the 732 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:24,240 biggest challenge where you're being asked to do more, get 733 00:42:24,240 --> 00:42:26,920 involved in more than two, three projects. 734 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:33,360 It's, it sounds easier saying it, but actually have the facts, 735 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,080 the, you know, the factual information. 736 00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:38,360 I've got this project to deliver. 737 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:42,120 It requires so much time for me to do it. 738 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,600 Break it down and communicate it to them. 739 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,880 Actually put it on paper, Communicate it to whether it be 740 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,000 your resource manager or your line manager and see how they 741 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,360 respond to it. If if you've got it written down 742 00:42:54,720 --> 00:42:57,840 and it makes sense, it's highly unlikely someone's going to say, 743 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:03,120 actually, you still need to do five extra projects or five 744 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:06,160 extra tasks. I feel like having that in 745 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:10,840 writing definitely does help in, in, in winning the battle to say 746 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:14,880 actually, I, I absolutely can't, can't pick this up for this 747 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,920 reason. It's visible when you so show 748 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,600 someone something visually. It's really difficult to say 749 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:24,120 actually, no, you know it. We still need you to do it. 750 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:28,640 Well, it's, it becomes a, a wee problem, not just my problem. 751 00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:32,840 So what do we, what can we do, what extra resources can we get 752 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,120 to, you know, to, to deliver this? 753 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,600 And this is where the organisations then come in. 754 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,000 It depends on what type of organisation you're working for. 755 00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,520 Some, some might just say, look, this is it, you have to do it, 756 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,720 we've got nobody else to do it. But then you then have to start 757 00:43:49,720 --> 00:43:52,480 reflecting again. Is this where I want to be? 758 00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,720 But we are problem solvers too. So as project professionals, we 759 00:43:56,720 --> 00:43:58,920 are problem solvers. So I'm always of the mindset 760 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:00,880 that saying no is not a weakness. 761 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:04,800 But if I'm going to say no, I can come up with some some 762 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:09,440 strategies or some plan for what the alternatives can be. 763 00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:13,880 So for example, I would go to colleagues who I know may have 764 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,800 more capacity or may be able to support me. 765 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:18,640 And I'm not just going to go with the problem. 766 00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:22,200 I'm going to try and come and go with the solution because I 767 00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:25,800 think that that always is, is favourable rather than pushing 768 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:30,600 the problem back to your line manager or your leader to say, 769 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:36,080 look, I just can't do this. If you are able to have a plan 770 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,560 for the alternatives, I think that often helps as well. 771 00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:42,560 Because it, you're right, it isn't a me isn't isn't just a me 772 00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:46,560 problem, it's a we problem. But I can also facilitate in 773 00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:50,720 that because they my my manager is a programme manager. 774 00:44:50,720 --> 00:44:53,560 So he has a programme of projects that he has to manage. 775 00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:58,720 So by just having the things that are causing me stress and 776 00:44:58,720 --> 00:45:01,440 trying to offload them on someone else, it can be 777 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,160 detrimental to the rest of the team or other people. 778 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,680 So try to strategize how to solve some of these problems 779 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,960 too. Just wrapping up now, if there's 780 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,480 one thing that you'd like listeners like us all to take 781 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,000 away from, from your whole experience of managing stress 782 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,520 and avoiding burnout, what would that one thing be? 783 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:26,200 Clara, I'd like to ask you that. I would say dialogue. 784 00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:30,960 I mean, keep open communication and as a leader, as a project 785 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:35,880 manager, create a psychological safety space so that people are 786 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,600 willing to talk to you. I think that is very important. 787 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,000 How do you do that? Everyone talks about creating a 788 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,000 psychological safe site. Is it partly role modelling 789 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:48,960 yourself what that means? Yes, I think role modelling is 790 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:51,360 very important. I mean, no matter. 791 00:45:51,720 --> 00:45:55,600 You. Really doing more mentoring, OK, 792 00:45:55,960 --> 00:46:00,080 for people in your group and as well as if you are going back to 793 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,560 the stress management, you are the symbol of taking off, OK. 794 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:07,120 You are the person who really take off in a visible way so 795 00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:09,960 that people will know, OK, she's serious about that. 796 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,160 He is. She is serious about work life 797 00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:13,720 balance. I think that those are the 798 00:46:13,720 --> 00:46:17,360 symbolic meaning as a leader we should be aware of. 799 00:46:18,240 --> 00:46:21,120 Thank you, Michelle. What would what would be your 800 00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,240 one thing that you'd like us to go? 801 00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,840 Home with. I'm definitely of the opinion 802 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:28,720 that a problem shared is a problem halved. 803 00:46:28,720 --> 00:46:32,120 That old saying there you don't struggle alone. 804 00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:36,960 And also by identifying your own triggers, it's one of the most 805 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,880 important things that you can do because you will be able to know 806 00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,600 yourself better than than anyone else. 807 00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:47,000 And also what is about to tip you over the edge so you can put 808 00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:52,240 in place measures that can help to prevent you getting, you 809 00:46:52,240 --> 00:46:57,000 know, pushed over the edge so you can ask for support and 810 00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:00,160 communicate. So sharing your problems isn't a 811 00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:03,280 weakness. You know you people. 812 00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:06,360 We need support in every aspect of our lives, so it's important. 813 00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,040 Can I ask how you protect yourself now? 814 00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:14,680 So are you very religious about logging off or having certain 815 00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:18,120 work hours? Or do you make sure you make 816 00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:21,240 time to do other things outside of work that you know relieves 817 00:47:21,240 --> 00:47:23,480 stress? Yeah. 818 00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:29,200 So for me, I, I and like I said, I need to know what's going on 819 00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,240 and things like that. So I actually do the opposite. 820 00:47:31,240 --> 00:47:34,280 And I'm sure that you ladies were probably going to say this 821 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:38,040 is not good for me. Things like on a Sunday night, I 822 00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:43,120 may check my emails and I know advocate for that, but but this 823 00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:46,680 is what helps me to plan my week. 824 00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:49,760 So there's no unexpected. Well, there will be unexpected 825 00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:52,400 things happening, but I'm I'm aware of what's going on. 826 00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:58,320 So it's really individual. So things like for me after I 827 00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,720 will change, change outlook. If I'm in the office, I change 828 00:48:01,720 --> 00:48:07,240 out of my work clothes and try to disassociate my home life 829 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:11,280 from my work life. But I do check my emails, you 830 00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,840 know, but I'm not as I was before where I'd go on holiday 831 00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:19,880 and be thinking of work and and working and to the point where I 832 00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:23,120 was dreaming about my projects, which is not everybody. 833 00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:28,120 So. Yeah, I've definitely learned to 834 00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:34,200 balance that because I know my, I know my triggers, I know what 835 00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:38,360 will happen and you know, I don't want to get back into that 836 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:42,840 place or burnout. So yeah, it's very individual as 837 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:46,560 to what even as to what we can do to prevent stress. 838 00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:51,040 But yeah, definitely logging off if if you you know, logging off 839 00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:54,200 and disassociating your private, your personal life from your 840 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:56,880 work life is important. I think that's a great point 841 00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:59,800 because we're bombarded with so much information about what you 842 00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:02,840 should hate, what you should be doing, you should be doing this 843 00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:06,320 and that, but actually you should be doing what's right for 844 00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,080 you. And if that means going against 845 00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:11,080 the advice that's given, it doesn't matter because it's what 846 00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,240 works for you. It's what works for you. 847 00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:16,040 Yeah. OK, Veronica, what? 848 00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:18,960 What? What would be your takeaway? 849 00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,160 Everything in life hinges on a good plan. 850 00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:26,160 So whether you plan on going on holiday and checking your 851 00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:30,240 emails, that's fine as long as you do plan to say, look, I will 852 00:49:30,240 --> 00:49:33,760 check my emails at this time and then take time off actually to 853 00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:35,720 switch off. That's why I laughed when 854 00:49:35,720 --> 00:49:37,360 Rochelle was saying I'm on holiday. 855 00:49:37,720 --> 00:49:39,880 I do check my emails on a Sunday. 856 00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:42,680 As long as that's what works for you, I think that's that's 857 00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:45,280 brilliant, but it's planning. Planning is critical. 858 00:49:45,720 --> 00:49:49,480 You say, I'll plan to take some time out to do whatever it is 859 00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,400 that helps you recharge, whether it's going to the gym, whether 860 00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:57,200 it's spending time with your son or whatever you do to, to 861 00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:00,720 recharge and, you know, re energise ready to get back to 862 00:50:00,720 --> 00:50:02,480 work. Plan to do that. 863 00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:06,720 And also plan for a resource to take over the work that you're 864 00:50:06,720 --> 00:50:10,040 doing when you're on holiday, for example, they help you sleep 865 00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:13,200 easy because I'm, I'm sure everyone goes through this 866 00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:15,280 situation where you're on holiday and you think, you know, 867 00:50:16,240 --> 00:50:18,920 I didn't do that or something needs to be done. 868 00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:21,680 You know, it's planning. Plan for a resource to pick that 869 00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:24,720 up while you're away. It gives you that Peace of Mind. 870 00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,640 Thank you so much. We've had we've covered so much 871 00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:30,240 ground. There's been so many brilliant 872 00:50:30,240 --> 00:50:32,440 tips that you've passed on. And I've never done a podcast 873 00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:34,600 with so many fantastic sound bites. 874 00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:37,280 It just leads me to to say thank you. 875 00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:39,640 Thanks everyone for joining us today. 876 00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:44,480 And I wanted to thank listeners for for listening to us today to 877 00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:47,640 the APM podcast. I'd also like to mention the 878 00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:52,200 Workplace Well-being profile on the APM website, 879 00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:56,200 whichisapm.org.uk. And and don't forget to look out 880 00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:59,280 for more episodes or to rate and review us wherever you get your 881 00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:01,960 podcasts. And we'd welcome you to get in 882 00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:04,760 touch with your comments, feedback and suggestions by 883 00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:09,080 emailing us at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. 884 00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:12,680 And Spotify users can also send us feedback directly within the 885 00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:15,280 Spotify app. This podcast has been brought to 886 00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,640 you by APM, the chartered body for the project profession. 887 00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:22,960 For more information on APM, visit to apm.org.uk.