1 00:00:02,300 --> 00:00:06,100 Welcome to the IPM podcast. APM is the charted body for the 2 00:00:06,100 --> 00:00:10,000 project profession. Hi, I'm Emma divita, the editor 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,900 project apm's quarterly journal in this our project innovators 4 00:00:14,900 --> 00:00:17,500 season of podcasts. I'm speaking to project 5 00:00:17,500 --> 00:00:20,600 professionals who are leading projects in a negative way is a 6 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,500 time where many of us are hoping the world of work and projects 7 00:00:23,500 --> 00:00:27,400 can be reset in a better way for a post covid World. 8 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:30,000 In this episode, we'll be meeting Joe Stanford. 9 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,500 Head of corporate portfolio office At arm's length body 10 00:00:33,500 --> 00:00:37,100 health education England to talk about how she's going about 11 00:00:37,100 --> 00:00:39,400 leading the collaborative development of the project 12 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,900 profession in the NHS. It's no mean feat. 13 00:00:43,100 --> 00:00:45,500 Not only is she trying to knit together a network of an 14 00:00:45,500 --> 00:00:49,700 estimated 10,000 project managers across 250 NHS 15 00:00:49,700 --> 00:00:52,700 organizations but she needs to identify who is doing the 16 00:00:52,700 --> 00:00:56,500 project work in the first place. It's a tall mountain to climb 17 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,600 but the Ultimate Prize is not only to further professionalize 18 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,400 project management with the NHS. And have it better recognize 19 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:07,300 within the organization and accorded a proper identity, but 20 00:01:07,300 --> 00:01:09,800 to create a collaborative network of support. 21 00:01:09,900 --> 00:01:13,000 Best practice and a culture of taking project management 22 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:17,300 training and accreditation. Seriously, Joe is a true 23 00:01:17,300 --> 00:01:19,300 innovator. And there are many lessons 24 00:01:19,300 --> 00:01:22,100 others can learn from her about how to raise the status of 25 00:01:22,100 --> 00:01:25,700 project management within organizations, formalizing and 26 00:01:25,700 --> 00:01:28,800 professionalizing it and creating a strong network of 27 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,800 supported peers. I spoke to Joan mid-December and 28 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:35,500 we pick up the conversation when she tells you a bit about the 29 00:01:35,500 --> 00:01:36,800 program. She's leading. 30 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:41,800 Hi Jay, thanks for finding the time to talk to us. 31 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:43,700 How are you? I'm great. 32 00:01:43,700 --> 00:01:46,300 Thank you. I'm really happy to chat. 33 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:48,200 Great. Well, I know we've picked up it 34 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,900 close to your heart. Could you explain a little bit 35 00:01:50,900 --> 00:01:53,400 about the task? You set yourself and the context 36 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:55,300 in which you're working? Yeah. 37 00:01:55,300 --> 00:02:00,500 So having sort of worked in other professions that worked in 38 00:02:00,500 --> 00:02:03,500 the Arts, the private sector, and sort of central government 39 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:08,699 before coming into the NHS. I was really surprised to find 40 00:02:08,699 --> 00:02:11,400 that. Um there was no coordinated 41 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:16,200 project profession in the NHS and no organization responsible 42 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:21,400 for the 10,000 plus project Workforce, and their development 43 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:26,200 and training. And that to me seemed like a 44 00:02:26,208 --> 00:02:32,700 really risky State given that the how huge the NHS is and how 45 00:02:32,700 --> 00:02:36,900 complex, and how constantly evolving the system is. 46 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,900 And so, you know, in my role, as head of project, profession for 47 00:02:41,900 --> 00:02:45,800 health education England, I contributed to the development 48 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,300 of the project profession for the Civil Service, as part of 49 00:02:49,308 --> 00:02:53,300 the heads of profession Steering group, and that was made up of 50 00:02:53,300 --> 00:02:55,300 head to profession from Department of Health and Social 51 00:02:55,300 --> 00:02:57,400 care and the other arms like bodies. 52 00:02:59,100 --> 00:03:03,500 However, the Civil Service Frameworks don't apply in the 53 00:03:03,500 --> 00:03:04,500 NHS. It's a wholly. 54 00:03:04,500 --> 00:03:07,100 Separate, ident entity from government. 55 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,800 So in order for us to implement a similar professional 56 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:16,400 framework, we need to adapt it for for the NHS. 57 00:03:17,300 --> 00:03:23,400 And so, I volunteered to lead that work with the other arm's 58 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,800 length bodies and starting is sort of 2016. 59 00:03:28,300 --> 00:03:30,800 I started leading on the NHS project profession program. 60 00:03:32,500 --> 00:03:36,500 The program itself has sort of nine work streams and that's 61 00:03:36,500 --> 00:03:42,800 including Operational model, and framework, the competency and 62 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:46,900 capability framework Learning and Development for the 63 00:03:46,908 --> 00:03:50,700 profession, including for apprenticeship programs, online 64 00:03:50,700 --> 00:03:52,200 and Regional communities of practice. 65 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,900 And there's a really key element around, Workforce data and 66 00:03:55,900 --> 00:04:00,100 Analysis, and part of that is about improving equality and 67 00:04:00,100 --> 00:04:06,800 diversity in the profession like many parts of well, public 68 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,800 sector, and private. At sector the balance of 69 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:14,200 equality. And diversity is not good in the 70 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:18,300 more senior or strategic roles and we want to really change 71 00:04:18,300 --> 00:04:22,400 that and we want to really open up opportunities for everybody 72 00:04:22,500 --> 00:04:26,800 to really make the most of their talent. 73 00:04:28,700 --> 00:04:32,400 And so as part, as well as that talent management, and then 74 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,300 things like events and conferences, and that then forms 75 00:04:35,300 --> 00:04:40,300 a whole sort of Ecosystem for the profession, then in the NHS. 76 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,100 Why is this so close to your heart? 77 00:04:43,700 --> 00:04:46,800 Why does it matter so much to be doing this at heee? 78 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:52,100 I think there's two key. Things one is, I fundamentally 79 00:04:52,100 --> 00:04:59,000 believe in the human rights to health and that that should be 80 00:04:59,300 --> 00:05:04,600 available and open to everybody and it, you know, irrespective 81 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:09,500 of wealth or status or ethnicity or gender. 82 00:05:09,900 --> 00:05:15,500 I think it should be something that is a fundamental human, 83 00:05:15,500 --> 00:05:19,600 right? And therefore, for me and having 84 00:05:20,300 --> 00:05:23,200 a real All kind of sense of purpose for my life and 85 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,700 something that I think adds value for the time that I'm 86 00:05:26,700 --> 00:05:30,400 here, I want to leave a legacy that leave something leaves the 87 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,500 world, a bit better than when I came into it. 88 00:05:34,500 --> 00:05:39,400 And for me, keeping the NHS sustainable future Generations, 89 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,900 that seems a very worthy cause to put my time and effort into. 90 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,000 And why would you consider what you're doing to be inevitable? 91 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:50,300 Because I certainly do That is very kind of you to say. 92 00:05:50,300 --> 00:05:57,200 So, I think I have to have to admit that anything that I've 93 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:01,100 done has been through my learning from others who are 94 00:06:01,100 --> 00:06:02,600 really leading the way in Innovation. 95 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:07,200 So, I've been really inspired by some some really amazing figures 96 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,100 out there. So I think that some of the 97 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,500 insights for me, were from people like Eddie. 98 00:06:13,500 --> 00:06:17,200 Oh bang. Who runs the pentacle virtual 99 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:21,200 business school? So creating that virtual world 100 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:25,500 of cube, where you kind of work and collaborate in a kind of 3D 101 00:06:25,500 --> 00:06:27,900 World in a really engaging meaningful way. 102 00:06:27,900 --> 00:06:31,700 We've been working in that way, for the last three or four years 103 00:06:31,700 --> 00:06:36,100 and that really helps to deliver transformation in a 104 00:06:36,108 --> 00:06:40,300 collaborative way from anywhere. And that's that, that's a 105 00:06:40,300 --> 00:06:43,200 fantastic Insight but also learning from him about the 106 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:47,100 future and that the world is changing faster than we are 107 00:06:47,100 --> 00:06:50,400 learning in. Adapting to it and being mindful 108 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:54,100 of that. It's about how do we keep 109 00:06:54,100 --> 00:06:56,200 learning and evolving and keeping up with new 110 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,000 developments. So that's a key element. 111 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:04,200 One of my project Heroes is Steven, Carver who is, you know, 112 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:06,700 brilliant not just at the technicalities of project 113 00:07:06,700 --> 00:07:09,700 management but also when projects go wrong and he's a 114 00:07:09,700 --> 00:07:13,400 fantastic Storyteller. And, you know, the profession 115 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,800 needs charismatic figures like him to really bring home. 116 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:22,200 Values in the profession ads. You know he he lectures on the 117 00:07:22,700 --> 00:07:25,800 project leadership program at Cranfield, one of one of my 118 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,500 close kind of Inspirations has been dr. 119 00:07:29,500 --> 00:07:34,200 Tom watch horn, who was The Innovation lead for national 120 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:38,700 service? Has Scotland in the NHS and she 121 00:07:38,700 --> 00:07:42,200 is well as a facilitator and tutor in Cube. 122 00:07:42,500 --> 00:07:47,700 Also delivers Innovation, using things like Lego serious play. 123 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:54,000 And she's helping us to deliver a five-day hackathon. 124 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,400 Using Lego series play at project Community Festival that 125 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:02,400 we're running apprenticeship week in February and that's 126 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,700 going to be tackling real current and HS issues. 127 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:11,100 And so that's really fantastic. Practical problem-solving stuff 128 00:08:11,100 --> 00:08:14,700 that helps really transform how we deal with issues. 129 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:17,800 And then for me there's something really fundamental 130 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,700 about understanding yourself and understanding leadership. 131 00:08:22,100 --> 00:08:28,500 And so for me having a really fantastic and effective team is 132 00:08:28,500 --> 00:08:34,700 about how I work as a manager and a leader and so so the work 133 00:08:34,700 --> 00:08:39,600 of Dan pink around motivating, teams hand, Daniel goleman 134 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:44,400 around emotional intelligence and a lot of the work around 135 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,100 applied Euro. Science for Effective change. 136 00:08:47,100 --> 00:08:51,100 I think those are all really fundamental things that project 137 00:08:51,100 --> 00:08:53,600 managers and leaders should have in their toolkit. 138 00:08:54,500 --> 00:08:58,000 And it's all of those kind of elements, combined learning from 139 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,300 others. Learning from the great work 140 00:09:00,300 --> 00:09:03,300 that's been going on in lots of different areas, pulling that 141 00:09:03,300 --> 00:09:06,700 together and tackling what is effectively a very big and 142 00:09:06,700 --> 00:09:10,700 complex challenge in the NHS where this hasn't been done 143 00:09:10,700 --> 00:09:14,200 before. And so that's that all of those 144 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:15,800 people. And those, those people have led 145 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,300 the way in their different fields have really helped 146 00:09:18,300 --> 00:09:22,400 inspire me to give me the confidence to try and make that 147 00:09:22,500 --> 00:09:26,300 change happen in the NHS. If you got any advice for 148 00:09:26,300 --> 00:09:29,400 project leaders who are inspired by the work of others and who 149 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,700 need to turn that inspiration and to form of experimentation, 150 00:09:32,700 --> 00:09:35,600 which could be daunting. There's always a risk. 151 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,400 I think it won't work or you won't have the outcome, you 152 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:40,200 intended. It sounds as though you're 153 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:42,500 taking those risks and a happy to experiment. 154 00:09:42,500 --> 00:09:45,900 So is there any advice you could pass on about how Do that. 155 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:47,900 I think there's a couple key things around. 156 00:09:47,900 --> 00:09:51,500 That one is about building in time to experiment. 157 00:09:52,100 --> 00:09:56,000 So I have a team of nine that work. 158 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:00,500 Very closely with me in the portfolio office day-to-day and 159 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,700 as well. As some additional, folks we 160 00:10:03,700 --> 00:10:06,700 come together and we have a to our learning development session 161 00:10:06,700 --> 00:10:10,900 every week where we experimentation, we we come 162 00:10:10,900 --> 00:10:13,500 together. We bring new challenges, new 163 00:10:13,500 --> 00:10:19,800 ways of working. And that's a safe space to do 164 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,100 that, testing and experimenting and learning and then we refine 165 00:10:23,100 --> 00:10:24,800 it. We find what works for us. 166 00:10:24,900 --> 00:10:29,500 And also we then look at applying that to other teams and 167 00:10:29,500 --> 00:10:33,900 other programs. So spreading that learning and 168 00:10:33,900 --> 00:10:37,800 one of the great things about working in Cube is that we can 169 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:42,500 work in there as a team, testing things out and experimenting and 170 00:10:42,500 --> 00:10:45,200 then pass that on by working with other teams in that space. 171 00:10:45,300 --> 00:10:49,900 Well, the other thing that's fundamental to it, is building a 172 00:10:49,900 --> 00:10:54,100 culture that is a learning culture, that is a coaching 173 00:10:54,100 --> 00:10:57,300 culture, that's about openness and honesty. 174 00:10:57,900 --> 00:11:03,300 And that is about testing and experimentation. 175 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:08,800 And therefore, if you knew, if you build a team who work in 176 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:13,800 that way then you know, anything you try is okay and you just, 177 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:15,500 you just take the learning from It. 178 00:11:15,500 --> 00:11:20,400 And you look to see how you can apply that in a way, that makes 179 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,100 a difference. In order to do this, people have 180 00:11:23,100 --> 00:11:24,800 to accept that failures. Okay. 181 00:11:25,100 --> 00:11:27,400 So how hard is it for you to convince your colleagues that 182 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,700 it's okay to make mistakes? It's okay to experiment. 183 00:11:31,300 --> 00:11:33,900 I think the thing is, you know, it's kind of doing away with the 184 00:11:33,900 --> 00:11:39,700 word failure because you know I don't think it necessarily helps 185 00:11:39,700 --> 00:11:44,000 the cause and the thing about experimenting is that you're not 186 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:49,100 necessarily Implementing something in a big sweeping way 187 00:11:49,100 --> 00:11:52,100 that could potentially go wrong. The point about experimenting is 188 00:11:52,100 --> 00:11:57,300 you're doing it in a in a small and safe way that tests out what 189 00:11:57,300 --> 00:12:01,400 works and what doesn't and you know Thomas Edison very 190 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:03,500 famously. Sort of said it's not that I 191 00:12:03,500 --> 00:12:05,900 failed. It's just that I found 10,000 192 00:12:05,900 --> 00:12:10,600 ways that don't work and them and it's the same thing about 193 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,100 engendering a, an idea of curiosity. 194 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:19,700 And testing and refining. And if you try something out and 195 00:12:19,700 --> 00:12:21,400 it didn't do what you expected to do. 196 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:23,300 You take the learning from that and go, oh, that was 197 00:12:23,300 --> 00:12:25,900 interesting. You know what can we do to do 198 00:12:25,900 --> 00:12:30,100 that differently. So it really is a mindset thing 199 00:12:30,900 --> 00:12:34,300 and and and when you when you look at it that way, you know, 200 00:12:34,300 --> 00:12:36,700 sometimes it's not that you don't make mistakes because 201 00:12:36,700 --> 00:12:39,800 sometimes you say things that come out the right way or you do 202 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:43,600 something that has unintended consequences things, you hadn't 203 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,600 planned for and I think Something like that happens. 204 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:47,900 You just holding hands up accounts. 205 00:12:47,900 --> 00:12:50,500 Go say I'm really sorry. That's not what I thought was 206 00:12:50,500 --> 00:12:54,900 going to happen there. You know, and you you kind of 207 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,900 explain what you wanted to do and you're open and honest about 208 00:12:58,900 --> 00:13:01,700 it. And, you know, people are from, 209 00:13:01,700 --> 00:13:04,600 you know, very accepting and forgiving of things like that. 210 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:08,800 And I think if you've got honesty and integrity and the 211 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,700 best interests of people that heart, I think, you know, people 212 00:13:11,700 --> 00:13:14,600 are very forgiving. If something doesn't always turn 213 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,900 out quite as Planned, how far along your program? 214 00:13:17,900 --> 00:13:20,300 Are you Joe? And what if you manage to 215 00:13:20,300 --> 00:13:24,700 achieve so far? So, it's a big program 216 00:13:24,700 --> 00:13:27,500 obviously. And so, we've sort of chunked it 217 00:13:27,500 --> 00:13:35,300 up, and the program has three key phases over five years and 218 00:13:35,300 --> 00:13:36,400 we're in the middle of phase two. 219 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:40,900 At the moment, we have excluded 2020 from the time frame. 220 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,000 You know, that it had a significant impact on Engagement 221 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:50,000 and progress this year due to a lot of our key stakeholders, rib 222 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:55,000 being redeployed to tackle, the covid-19 challenge at. 223 00:13:55,000 --> 00:14:01,100 So you know, we've sort of put a little bit on hold but in simply 224 00:14:01,100 --> 00:14:04,600 in Phase 1 what we did there was do an awful lot of research 225 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:11,700 background, you know experimenting looking at design 226 00:14:11,700 --> 00:14:15,000 testing things out and particularly going out. 227 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:16,800 And finding what everybody else has done out there. 228 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,300 What works, what doesn't, how did it go? 229 00:14:19,300 --> 00:14:24,400 What can we take from? You know what you did and and 230 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:28,100 then sort of building a kind of framework for the program and 231 00:14:28,100 --> 00:14:30,900 then some key components were around the development of the 232 00:14:30,908 --> 00:14:33,700 community platform. And that was fundamental because 233 00:14:33,700 --> 00:14:37,800 that then gave us a way to connect communicate and engage 234 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:43,500 with people across, you know, the whole NHS landscape. 235 00:14:45,300 --> 00:14:48,500 So having that we can then share things with that we can get 236 00:14:48,500 --> 00:14:52,900 people involved in testing out elements and we can kind of 237 00:14:52,900 --> 00:14:56,500 connect and update people and what's happening the other kind 238 00:14:56,500 --> 00:14:59,000 of Key Products. We develop from the the sort of 239 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,000 first phase was we developed some core skills, online 240 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,900 learning modules and this was around teaching people, the 241 00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:08,600 basics of project management change management benefits 242 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:10,900 management. And also we did a module for 243 00:15:10,900 --> 00:15:14,500 sros with these are the people who are in some kind of project 244 00:15:14,500 --> 00:15:16,500 management. Rolling already or for anyone 245 00:15:16,500 --> 00:15:18,200 who's interested in finding out more. 246 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:23,300 These are for everyone on the basis that whilst there's 247 00:15:23,300 --> 00:15:27,700 probably about 10,000 people in the NHS whose full-time day job, 248 00:15:27,700 --> 00:15:29,500 it is to do program project management. 249 00:15:29,700 --> 00:15:33,000 Everybody dabbles in it. And a lot of people in 250 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:38,200 certainly, in other professions and in other roles are either 251 00:15:38,500 --> 00:15:42,200 doing change involved in change and projects or they're leading 252 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,700 them without necessarily having had the training. 253 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,100 To do it effectively. So for me, one of the 254 00:15:48,108 --> 00:15:52,800 fundamental challenges was, how do we skill up everybody to have 255 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:57,400 a basic competence so that they know what they can and, you 256 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,100 know, can't do in relation to project management and have a 257 00:16:00,100 --> 00:16:04,600 basic understanding of it. So for me, it's a bit like first 258 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,200 aid training. So you want everybody to train 259 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:09,100 to be trained up to be a first aider. 260 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:11,900 But you know you only want to select number of people to be 261 00:16:11,900 --> 00:16:15,600 trained to be clinically you know, expert in the Field. 262 00:16:15,900 --> 00:16:19,000 So, the thing about having people trained as first aid, as 263 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,300 they then know what's outside their scope of practice and know 264 00:16:22,300 --> 00:16:26,300 when to pass it on to a professional, and that's what 265 00:16:26,300 --> 00:16:30,100 we're looking to do for the NHS, is to build the skills. 266 00:16:30,900 --> 00:16:36,600 We launched those five online learning modules in October last 267 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,000 year, so just over to about 14 months. 268 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,200 Now, they've been out there and they have been, there's been 269 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:48,400 just over 5,200 different, you know, people accessing them and 270 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:50,500 learning from them. And what kind of range of people 271 00:16:50,500 --> 00:16:53,400 you getting, you getting Medics all sorts? 272 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,800 Yeah, absolutely. We I've been asked to do some 273 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:05,700 some training sessions with some Public Health fellows and some 274 00:17:05,700 --> 00:17:08,800 some GP fellows. And again it's about giving them 275 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,700 a basic understanding and some kind of core skills for them to 276 00:17:11,700 --> 00:17:15,300 apply it to the kind of small local changes that they do 277 00:17:15,300 --> 00:17:18,200 themselves. So that's one element of it is. 278 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:20,000 It's not just about professionals. 279 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,099 It's about project management is called skills for everybody. 280 00:17:23,099 --> 00:17:26,300 So really part of what you're doing is creating A much more 281 00:17:26,300 --> 00:17:29,700 formal identity for project managers and letting people 282 00:17:29,700 --> 00:17:32,600 understand what project management actually is and what 283 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:37,100 it is not absolutely. And I think that's that's a 284 00:17:37,100 --> 00:17:41,500 really key element because until we get everybody understanding 285 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:48,300 why it's important that at above a certain level of risk and 286 00:17:48,300 --> 00:17:53,700 complexity, it needs a more complex and experienced kit. 287 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:58,000 Skill set it. It continues to be risky. 288 00:17:58,100 --> 00:18:02,900 So that's a lot of perhaps enthusiastic amateurs. 289 00:18:02,900 --> 00:18:09,900 That could have fairly catastrophic impact on the 290 00:18:09,900 --> 00:18:13,800 system, but not necessarily aware that they're doing that 291 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:19,200 because they're not aware of the consequential impact of the 292 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,200 change. They're putting in place, so 293 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,500 raising that awareness and raising that up. 294 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,700 Understanding of you know to what extent you are then 295 00:18:28,700 --> 00:18:33,400 effectively, licensed to be competent to manage. 296 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:37,100 Change is important to then say, well actually I now know that 297 00:18:37,100 --> 00:18:41,000 this needs to be picked up by somebody who's got no more 298 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,000 professional skills and experience, you've done a lot 299 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:45,600 for ready. What's left to do? 300 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:50,800 I mean 2020 has been a massive hiccup to say the least, but if 301 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,800 things can move towards a greater semblance of normality, 302 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,600 perhaps or 2021. Was top of your list to achieve, 303 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,400 we have a festival, a week-long festival during the 304 00:19:02,408 --> 00:19:04,900 apprenticeships week that dates to the 12th of February. 305 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:11,100 And at that Festival, we are going to be launching the NHS 306 00:19:11,700 --> 00:19:14,100 project and change capability framework. 307 00:19:15,100 --> 00:19:20,800 And so that's the competencies. The roles the skills and 308 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:25,600 experience that everybody will need and 2mm to launch that. 309 00:19:25,700 --> 00:19:30,600 Across the the NHS alongside that we are launching for 310 00:19:30,700 --> 00:19:35,600 apprenticeship programs. A level for project data analyst 311 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:41,400 program level for associate project manager at level 6, BSC 312 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:43,900 and project management and the level 7 systems, thinking 313 00:19:43,900 --> 00:19:48,400 practitioner MSC. And so, as part of that, it's 314 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:53,300 going to be 500 people. Hopefully, from across the NHS. 315 00:19:53,300 --> 00:19:55,600 We've got some really great and fun things. 316 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,200 Playing and some really great and inspirational speakers. 317 00:19:59,300 --> 00:20:02,700 Part of the point of the festival is really about 318 00:20:03,300 --> 00:20:08,300 building the culture and the behaviors and the environment. 319 00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:11,600 That says, actually if we work collectively together, if we 320 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:17,500 work openly and honestly if we support each other and coach 321 00:20:17,500 --> 00:20:21,800 network and train and share, then together, we will be so 322 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:25,800 much stronger as well as supporting the system and The 323 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:30,600 environment we work in in the NHS to be both evolving and 324 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:32,900 sustainable. It's interesting. 325 00:20:32,900 --> 00:20:36,000 You say that because I know there is perhaps a culture of 326 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:40,000 competition between the NHS is 250 organizations. 327 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:45,900 As that be one of the challenges you faced. it has, I think it's 328 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:51,000 It's a tricky situation because this is reflective of a sort of 329 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,300 political ideology, which is necessarily in the best 330 00:20:54,300 --> 00:20:57,100 interests of patients and health outcomes. 331 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,300 And therefore, what it's created, as a very disconnected 332 00:21:02,300 --> 00:21:07,100 system with competition between organizations but also very 333 00:21:07,100 --> 00:21:10,400 disconnected. Group of people. 334 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:14,600 The one thing we found quite shocking, was how disconnected 335 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,000 people were even within the regions from their counterparts? 336 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,900 Hearts in other organizations. And it's taking those quite a 337 00:21:20,908 --> 00:21:24,600 long time, to really build that Network up to connect people 338 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,900 together. We one of the one of the 339 00:21:27,908 --> 00:21:33,800 developments we've got is around Regional networks, and I think 340 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:37,800 the thing about getting past the organizational barriers is, we 341 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,500 bring people together in terms of what they have in common and 342 00:21:41,500 --> 00:21:45,000 what we have in common is that we are project professionals. 343 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:50,100 We are here Because of a sense of Greater purpose, because 344 00:21:50,100 --> 00:21:55,000 we're here to to improve the health and well-being outcomes 345 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:59,900 for the population of this country and and that's above 346 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,900 politics and organizational boundaries. 347 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:07,500 And I think if we can focus on that, and focus on the support 348 00:22:07,500 --> 00:22:10,400 and development of the profession and individuals 349 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:14,400 within the profession, then, you know, we don't need to worry 350 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:16,700 about those infrastructural constraints. 351 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:21,600 So I think that's, that's a real element of the challenges that 352 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:23,500 we've worked around. His is starting with, you know, 353 00:22:23,500 --> 00:22:25,000 kotter's Coalition of the Willing. 354 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:30,200 We've got people together who also equally passionate and, you 355 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,100 know, to see it as a compelling Vision. 356 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,400 Getting them to work with us, getting them to share that 357 00:22:36,100 --> 00:22:40,000 enthusiasm and you know, excitement with people within 358 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,600 their networks and pulling pulling everybody together, you 359 00:22:43,608 --> 00:22:46,900 know, and this is all been done by volunteers. 360 00:22:47,100 --> 00:22:50,900 So it's all in addition to the day job which to be honest is 361 00:22:50,900 --> 00:22:57,100 quite full on anyway, but actually it's having that shared 362 00:22:57,100 --> 00:23:01,100 purpose that passion and commitment to something that we 363 00:23:01,100 --> 00:23:06,000 genuinely believe adds real value in the long run. 364 00:23:07,300 --> 00:23:09,600 Obviously, you know, that you got the usual constraints 365 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,800 around, you know, funding and resourcing and lack of sort of 366 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:18,800 system ownership for it. But actually pulling together 367 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:24,200 like-minded, people who really want to make a difference. 368 00:23:24,500 --> 00:23:27,100 You know, nobody comes into the really the NHS or the public 369 00:23:27,100 --> 00:23:31,100 sector for an easy life. It's it's hard working. 370 00:23:31,100 --> 00:23:35,100 It's challenging. But actually, you know, for most 371 00:23:35,100 --> 00:23:39,000 of us it's because we have, you know, a compelling need to have 372 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,000 purpose in our lives and to make a difference. 373 00:23:41,500 --> 00:23:44,000 What have been the other main challenges you faced. 374 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,100 Another one I imagine is trying to explain What project 375 00:23:47,100 --> 00:23:50,900 management means to those above you to senior leaders within an 376 00:23:50,900 --> 00:23:53,800 organization, has that been a challenge and how have you 377 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,500 overcome that? It has been a challenge If we're 378 00:23:57,500 --> 00:24:00,700 honest. I think like any sector there 379 00:24:00,700 --> 00:24:04,400 are there is the core business of the sector which is usually 380 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,200 kind of not project management. So in health, it's you know, 381 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,600 clinicians. It's kind of medical people 382 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:15,100 working and leading the sector who don't necessarily have 383 00:24:15,100 --> 00:24:17,900 knowledge and Kills around project management. 384 00:24:18,300 --> 00:24:23,900 And so getting influence at a senior level getting Champions 385 00:24:23,900 --> 00:24:27,800 and ambassadors. And, you know, sponsors for it 386 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:33,800 has been tricky, because there is no natural home for it. 387 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,900 Unlike the unlike government, which has the infrastructure 388 00:24:36,900 --> 00:24:42,200 projects Authority, there is no function within the NHS that is 389 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:46,100 responsible for project management, for oversight of it 390 00:24:46,100 --> 00:24:48,800 all. The development of the workforce 391 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,400 and, and their capability. And that's one of the things 392 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,600 that we've been looking to to do is to actually get a kind of 393 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,400 Hosting organisation and a senior sponsor. 394 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:06,400 So one of the things that we did actually when we were performing 395 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:11,100 as a group, we had a workshop that brought everybody from 396 00:25:11,100 --> 00:25:16,700 across the regions together and we spent two days doing a Lego 397 00:25:16,700 --> 00:25:21,600 serious play, build of the vision for the profession and 398 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:26,300 also what the challenges were, and also the opportunities. 399 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,800 And actually one of the opportunities was Finding 400 00:25:30,100 --> 00:25:33,400 ambassador's of, you know, to, to support the profession, who 401 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,900 were senior people in their own professional whether that's 402 00:25:36,900 --> 00:25:42,500 medical or financial or HR mod, but who were sympathetic and 403 00:25:42,500 --> 00:25:46,300 understanding and getting them to tell the story. 404 00:25:46,500 --> 00:25:50,600 For us, getting them to share that with their peers with their 405 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,300 counterparts. And that's that's a way to 406 00:25:54,300 --> 00:25:58,200 engage people that we've found has has really helped to. 407 00:25:58,700 --> 00:26:02,100 I think get the message across in a way that is heard and 408 00:26:02,100 --> 00:26:04,900 respected. It's enough of that really, to 409 00:26:04,900 --> 00:26:08,200 shouting about the benefits that good prefer project management 410 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,700 can bring, there's two elements to it that are really important. 411 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,200 One is about understanding the consequences. 412 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,600 Of not doing project management effectively, and that's not just 413 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,400 about following the processes. And again, we have this 414 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,600 perception that project management is all about filling, 415 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:33,200 in forms, or writing Gantt, charts, and writing reports. 416 00:26:33,700 --> 00:26:36,100 And in a way that's like, saying, well, all the nurse does 417 00:26:36,100 --> 00:26:40,800 is filling a patient's record and go, but the record is 418 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,900 really, just a summary of the activity you've done, which is 419 00:26:43,900 --> 00:26:47,200 the core part of your role. And that's a Outputting that 420 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,100 change in place and I think that's the bit that is perhaps a 421 00:26:51,108 --> 00:26:56,300 bit invisible to people is that a project manager is a doing 422 00:26:56,300 --> 00:26:58,600 roll. It's about engaging, it's about 423 00:26:58,700 --> 00:27:00,000 working. It's about getting your 424 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,000 stakeholders involved. It's about setting up, you know, 425 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,800 sort of products and testing them and getting input and 426 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,800 refining that and then at the end of it, you will provide an 427 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:16,300 update on how that's going. So some of it's about increasing 428 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:22,100 An awareness of the dynamic, nature of project management and 429 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,300 and the people-centered nature of it, which it is in this 430 00:27:25,300 --> 00:27:29,300 sector. And what we can do as project 431 00:27:29,300 --> 00:27:35,100 managers and professionals to to raise awareness of the 432 00:27:36,100 --> 00:27:38,400 activities of project management and the skills of project 433 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,000 management. And for me that's through things 434 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:46,700 like coaching and facilitation and mentoring one of the Things 435 00:27:46,700 --> 00:27:52,300 I've done with my team is apart from actually setting the team 436 00:27:52,500 --> 00:27:57,900 up in a way that everybody's role reflects their natural 437 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,500 abilities and also their areas of Interest. 438 00:28:01,900 --> 00:28:05,500 So I wrote the team's rolls around them as individuals 439 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,500 rather than try to fit them into a role. 440 00:28:09,500 --> 00:28:12,800 And the great thing about that is, if you fit a roll around, 441 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:17,100 somebody's abilities and interests, they We'll just get 442 00:28:17,100 --> 00:28:21,600 on and do amazing things. If you set them a per person and 443 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,700 outcome to achieve and they're interested and you know it you 444 00:28:25,700 --> 00:28:29,600 know you know greater doing it and you give them the training 445 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,000 and the skills they need they will do fantastic things. 446 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,200 And then what you can do is you can use that skills and 447 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,300 knowledge to do things like facilitating and training with 448 00:28:37,300 --> 00:28:41,800 project teams doing coaching with project managers providing 449 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:47,100 a sort of an objective peer review or Challenge and that 450 00:28:47,100 --> 00:28:50,400 helps I think build some of the Either might be lacking. 451 00:28:51,300 --> 00:28:53,600 What other advice would you give to project managers and 452 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,800 organizations who are Keen to formalize professionalize and 453 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,500 win project management? The recognition it deserves. 454 00:29:00,100 --> 00:29:04,500 So I think that's probably three key things that I would you 455 00:29:04,500 --> 00:29:08,500 know, suggest the first one is go out there and see who does it 456 00:29:08,500 --> 00:29:11,700 really? Well, go and ask them about it. 457 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,200 Go and give. No go and borrow all the stuff 458 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,200 that they do, you know, find out how they did it. 459 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,200 Learn the lessons from from, Them and I've been really 460 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,900 privileged to have some some really great people, give me you 461 00:29:25,900 --> 00:29:30,000 know advice and support and information about that how 462 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,800 they've done things and and some of that's about doing outside of 463 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,200 your comfort zone and outside of your your sector. 464 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,400 So where's Robinson at sellafield, who runs the project 465 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,100 will has run the project Academy there for many years and done an 466 00:29:44,100 --> 00:29:46,600 absolutely fantastic job of building the profession. 467 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,200 You know he and his colleagues have been incredibly generous. 468 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:53,400 Rest in providing their advice around things like 469 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:58,000 apprenticeship programs. And and it's things like that. 470 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,900 That that about learning from others, don't reinvent the 471 00:30:00,900 --> 00:30:04,900 wheel, learn what good looks like go and, you know, find out 472 00:30:04,900 --> 00:30:07,400 how it works. And then going, you know, borrow 473 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,000 some of that stuff. The second thing then, is around 474 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,900 getting that senior leadership engagement, it is really 475 00:30:14,900 --> 00:30:21,600 fundamental, and if you don't Have a voice at the table, it's 476 00:30:21,900 --> 00:30:25,900 finding a sympathetic ear that does have a voice at the table 477 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:31,800 and finding those ambassador's and champions who can influence 478 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:36,000 their peers for you. The third thing then is around 479 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:40,300 building that Coalition of the Willing get together a group of 480 00:30:40,500 --> 00:30:44,600 like-minded, passionate enthusiastic people who believe 481 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:49,600 in what you're trying to do and then you support them, you if 482 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,800 they need some training development if they need some 483 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,600 advice and guidance you know it's a I think we're getting 484 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,800 back to a sharing and bartering kind of culture rather than 485 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,600 these sort of biggest donor contracts because a lot of what 486 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,500 we're doing is Round Mutual support and benefit. 487 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,900 So if you want people to help you to develop an embedded, what 488 00:31:10,900 --> 00:31:14,300 can you offer them in return? Have you got any advice around? 489 00:31:14,300 --> 00:31:17,400 How to ask people to volunteer their time and their energy when 490 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,100 they've already got a full-on job to do and you're asking them 491 00:31:21,100 --> 00:31:25,500 to do something extra volunteers are self-selecting. 492 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,200 You can't really just kind of go out and ask them and I think 493 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:30,900 it's a bit of a scattergun approach. 494 00:31:31,100 --> 00:31:33,100 You don't necessarily know who's out there. 495 00:31:34,700 --> 00:31:41,200 What we did was we did a whole whole series of webinars and we 496 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,200 invited everybody that was in our community and in our 497 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,100 Network. So, and as a starting point that 498 00:31:49,100 --> 00:31:50,600 ones that are interested will come along. 499 00:31:52,100 --> 00:31:55,500 You share, what you're doing? Your passion and enthusiasm for 500 00:31:55,500 --> 00:31:56,300 it. What is it? 501 00:31:56,300 --> 00:31:59,500 You're trying to achieve, what are you trying to deliver? 502 00:31:59,700 --> 00:32:03,500 And then you ask them, you know who's interested in helping out, 503 00:32:03,500 --> 00:32:05,400 who would be prepared to volunteer? 504 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,200 Who would be interested in helping with this bit of that 505 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,800 bit and be specific about it? You know, it's not a kind of 506 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,900 can't launch to get people's time for everything, but people 507 00:32:15,900 --> 00:32:19,500 usually pretty interested in one particular element or another. 508 00:32:20,300 --> 00:32:23,300 And therefore, you know, tap That and use that knowledge and 509 00:32:23,300 --> 00:32:26,400 experience. But also same time, say what can 510 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,800 I offer you in return? One of the things that's been 511 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:35,000 really Quite startling for me recently is we've done a bunch 512 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,600 of webinars which was about raising awareness of the 513 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:43,200 profession as a pipeline for people to come into it and even 514 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,300 just within my own organization, there's about 3,000 people 515 00:32:47,300 --> 00:32:50,800 working in health education, England, we put on a webinar, 516 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,200 introduction to the profession. Come along and find out more 517 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,300 about it. If you want to learn about 518 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,500 careers and and how to progress in project management, we had 519 00:32:59,500 --> 00:33:04,100 over 100 people turn up. And and the thing about it was 520 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,800 we knew almost none of them. They weren't people who were 521 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,300 already working in programs and projects in actually, but they 522 00:33:11,300 --> 00:33:15,000 wanted to, they were interested the passion, how do we get in? 523 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,000 How do we, how do we learn? How do we get a job in it and 524 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,600 there was so much untapped potential in that group of 525 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,400 people, it was fabulous. And of course when we started to 526 00:33:24,408 --> 00:33:27,600 talk about the festival and looking at Roots into the 527 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,000 profession and how can we support people to to get that 528 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,900 experience in order to The knowledge to get their first 529 00:33:34,900 --> 00:33:37,100 role. When we sort of said, you know, 530 00:33:37,100 --> 00:33:39,700 we're running these events. Would anybody be willing to help 531 00:33:39,700 --> 00:33:40,800 out? We had all sorts of people. 532 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,700 Volunteer, if you don't ask, you don't get any, don't find out 533 00:33:43,700 --> 00:33:45,500 who's interested. Yeah. 534 00:33:46,300 --> 00:33:49,200 Any other days and dates don't take it. 535 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:55,500 Personally, I think the when you try and put changing place and 536 00:33:55,500 --> 00:33:58,500 and again some of this is about, I think the Neuroscience of 537 00:33:58,500 --> 00:34:02,700 change which is changes frightening and it's Is it 538 00:34:02,700 --> 00:34:07,200 requires physical mental effort, you know, a lot of our energy is 539 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,800 taken up by the brain. And when we try and put change 540 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,100 into place, that is actually exhausting. 541 00:34:14,100 --> 00:34:18,199 It burns energy be mindful of the fact that when you're trying 542 00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:21,199 to do this you're going to meet an awful lot of resistance. 543 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:26,100 It's not about you it's about individuals potentially feeling 544 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,199 out of their comfort zone. Feeling a bit threatened feeling 545 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:34,400 that they are somehow out of That with what's going on and 546 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:39,699 when that happens people tend to retreat and it can be very 547 00:34:39,699 --> 00:34:44,000 defensive or you know they will you know when you'll get a an 548 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,199 offense is a good defense and they'll cry and push back. 549 00:34:47,699 --> 00:34:52,699 I think the thing about it then is looking at how you can make 550 00:34:52,699 --> 00:34:55,900 it, as least threatening as possible, make it as comfortable 551 00:34:55,900 --> 00:35:01,200 as possible, how you can reduce the, the kind of sense of 552 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,800 anxiety that people. I'll feel where they feel like 553 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,500 they're they're they're out of their comfort zone and in an 554 00:35:07,500 --> 00:35:10,900 area that they're they don't understand. 555 00:35:11,300 --> 00:35:14,600 And so that can be that can be very personal. 556 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,800 I can be a one-to-one and I think there's the something 557 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,800 about not just the the actual change, you want to put in 558 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,500 place, but how do you set the environment to enable that 559 00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:28,200 change? And one of the things about the 560 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,500 kind of Applied Neuroscience learning, I've been doing 561 00:35:30,500 --> 00:35:35,700 recently is about how Create and develop a growth mindset and a 562 00:35:35,700 --> 00:35:41,700 learning mindset that opens up the kind of audience to be 563 00:35:41,700 --> 00:35:47,100 curious and interested in the change as opposed to threatened 564 00:35:47,100 --> 00:35:49,000 by it. So that's why I think 565 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:53,500 understanding emotional psychology and understanding 566 00:35:53,500 --> 00:35:57,100 Neuroscience is really fundamental for program project 567 00:35:57,100 --> 00:36:01,400 managers, because if you can tap into that understanding, then 568 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,200 you can shape Up. How you engage with people in a 569 00:36:04,207 --> 00:36:08,000 way that is more likely to achieve the outcomes you want to 570 00:36:08,700 --> 00:36:12,500 and and reduce the resistance and the barriers that that 571 00:36:12,500 --> 00:36:14,700 you'll get from people what a brilliant way to end a 572 00:36:14,700 --> 00:36:16,800 conversation packed with so much advice. 573 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:18,600 It's been brilliant, talking to you Joe. 574 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,200 Thank you so much for sparing, the time to talk to us. 575 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,500 Thank you. It is, you know, my passion and 576 00:36:24,500 --> 00:36:25,600 my favorite subject at the moment. 577 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,200 So I'm always happy to talk about it. 578 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:32,800 Thanks very much Emma. Thanks again to Joe for joining 579 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,800 us and to you for listening to this fourth episode of apm's 580 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,000 project Innovative series. Don't forget to look out for 581 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,000 more episodes in this series or to rate and review us wherever 582 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,300 you. Get your podcasts, you'll find 583 00:36:44,300 --> 00:36:47,400 are some Spotify, Apple podcasts, Google podcasts and 584 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,900 more. This podcast has been brought to 585 00:36:49,900 --> 00:36:53,300 you by APM the childhood body for the project profession. 586 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,700 For more information on a p.m. visit, a p.m. 587 00:36:56,700 --> 00:36:58,200 Dot org.uk.