1 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,240 Hello and welcome to the APM Podcast. 2 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:20,080 My name is Professor Adam Bodison and I'm the Chief 3 00:00:20,080 --> 00:00:23,320 Executive of APM and your host today. 4 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,480 We're delighted to welcome to the podcast Steve Langbridge. 5 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:31,040 Now Steve is the Director of Programmes at SEAA Company, 6 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,000 based in the southwest of England, which specialises in 7 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,280 developing and delivering defence solutions to a global 8 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,120 customer base. It's business areas include 9 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,640 naval, ship and fleet protection and undersea surveillance 10 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,200 systems. Steve was appointed to his 11 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,440 Director role in July, having previously been head of the 12 00:00:49,480 --> 00:00:52,640 Project Management office. In this conversation, Steve's 13 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,480 going to tell us what it's like to deliver projects and 14 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,640 programmes in the defence sector, including the challenges 15 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,200 of working in such a fast evolving and complex space. 16 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,160 So Steve, thanks very much for joining us. 17 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,600 And to kick off, let's talk a little bit about you and your 18 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:10,760 background. Can you give us a a sense of 19 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,800 your background and also your career journey to date? 20 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:16,600 Yeah, hi. I mean, it's great to meet you 21 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:18,880 and I really appreciate the opportunity to to join today. 22 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:21,600 So in terms of my background, I've been really fortunate to 23 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,120 work across a number of sectors with, with lots of really 24 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:26,920 exciting teams. But if I if I rewind right back 25 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,120 to the start, I began my career as an electronic engineering 26 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,320 apprentice. I was really fortunate to work 27 00:01:32,320 --> 00:01:35,840 for a company that supported my education and I developed along 28 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,360 that technical path all the way through to a bachelor's degree 29 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,400 level in, in electronics. At that point, I made a switch 30 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,560 into, into management and leadership when I, I completed a 31 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,600 master's degree in engineering management alongside various 32 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:50,800 other complementary leadership and project management 33 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:53,520 qualifications. And, and I guess it's this point 34 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,840 in that, that transition that coincided with my move away from 35 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,160 hands on engineering and into leadership positions. 36 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,880 So, so professionally over the last 20 years, I've had the 37 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,280 privilege of leading diverse teams across Europe, delivering 38 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:10,000 projects in sectors ranging from industrial power generation to 39 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,560 aerospace to fast moving consumer goods. 40 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,080 And then as you mentioned more recently in the defence base 41 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:17,880 with SEA. I've had the again, the 42 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,000 privilege of delivering everything from major capital 43 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,160 investment projects in personal care, manufacturing lines all 44 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:26,400 the way through to the design and development of complex 45 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,040 systems, some of which I'm sure we'll touch on today. 46 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,120 Over the course of my career, I've held senior leadership 47 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:35,160 roles across engineering, operations and now programmes, 48 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,520 but I guess the key theme here is that the focus is always on 49 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:40,800 delivery people and continuous improvement. 50 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:43,440 I, I, I know we always have that advice. 51 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:45,240 You know, when you write your CV and they say it's going to be on 52 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,880 2 pages, I'm thinking that's a heck of ACV Steve, isn't it? 53 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,520 You know, I don't know how you would keep it on the 2 pages, 54 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:54,160 but brilliant that, that, what a fantastic background. 55 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:56,480 So that's a bit about you. What about SCA? 56 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:58,000 You kind of touched on it briefly. 57 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,520 Maybe you could tell us a bit about when it was founded and 58 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,360 the types of products you develop, who your customers are 59 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:05,360 and so on. Yeah, absolutely. 60 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,200 So SEA or systems engineering assessment as is otherwise known 61 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:13,040 is AUK based defence company. We were founded in 1961 and we 62 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:16,520 were inquired by the cohort PLC who are an independent 63 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:20,560 technology group in 2007. So our team is is made-up of 64 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,680 over 400 people and we operate across the southwest of the UK 65 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,960 with three sites and we also have a wholly owned subsidiary 66 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:28,800 in Canada. So as you mentioned at the 67 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,040 start, our expertise lie in shipping, free protection, 68 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:33,920 underwater surveillance and complex systems integration. 69 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,720 The big things for us as we design, manufacture and deliver 70 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,880 a wide range of advanced products and capabilities which 71 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,800 are often modular and adaptable to meet specific customer 72 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,000 challenges. So some of the core products and 73 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,160 and again I'm sure we'll touch on this later, but we deliver 74 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:52,200 world leading torpedo launcher systems both into the UK and and 75 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,680 Navy's globally. We have Cratesense Toda Ray 76 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,960 system, which is a flexible scaler, scalable and modular 77 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,600 sonar system. And then most recently we have 78 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:06,280 designed, developed a trainable countermeasure launcher called 79 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,800 Ancilla, which is a rapid protection decoy system designed 80 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,160 to protect naval vessels. I'll do some jargon busting on 81 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:16,160 that, that that later. All of the products that we we 82 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,040 make are designed and manufactured at our facility in 83 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:23,040 North Devon and we support customers including the UKMOD 84 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:27,160 and other navies internationally across Asia, the Indo Pacific 85 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,440 region, Europe, South America and Canada. 86 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,480 We work closely with shipyards, governments and lots of defence 87 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,200 partners. So we're we're in a really good 88 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,880 position because we understand some of the challenges that that 89 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:42,720 are being faced and we're again uniquely positioned that we can 90 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,920 provide solutions that meet these challenges both now and in 91 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,600 the longer term. The the last thing on this I 92 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:50,840 mentioned is that we're part of the larger group called the 93 00:04:50,840 --> 00:04:53,880 cohort EOC. The benefit of this for us is 94 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,960 that this group gives us the backing and the stability of a 95 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,440 larger organisation while still allowing us to operate with the 96 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:04,120 agility and focus of a specialised mid tier defence 97 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:05,800 business. Yeah, exciting. 98 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,960 It is very exciting and, and you know, obviously the, the world 99 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,680 is in a very challenging place at the moment. 100 00:05:13,280 --> 00:05:15,960 You know, there's obviously conflicts going on all over the 101 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,080 place and, and I guess for businesses operating in a 102 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:24,200 defence space like yours, there's going to be huge demands 103 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:29,200 and expectation from you to kind of to meet probably what I guess 104 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:33,520 is a, a growing order book. I also mindful that some of some 105 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:35,920 of the projects you're working on will be quite sensitive and 106 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:37,880 you may not be able to talk about them all, but are there 107 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,800 any that you can talk about and give us some examples of of 108 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:43,800 maybe the kinds of projects that you're working on? 109 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,200 Yeah, absolutely. So I kind of alluded to some of 110 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:50,320 the exciting stuff in in the last question, but if I pick up 111 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:53,520 on those three in particular. So Ancilla which is our decoy 112 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:57,360 launcher is a new flexible maritime countermeasure system. 113 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,480 This is designed to provide rapid protection to ships from 114 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,440 modern threats like anti ship missiles. 115 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,800 Before I kind of go any further on that, a countermeasure is a 116 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,520 bit it's essentially something that's designed to deceive or 117 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,160 mislead a threat such as an incoming missile. 118 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:13,680 There are lots of different types of countermeasures, but 119 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,920 typically they can include things like physical decoys that 120 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:21,040 create a cloud that masks a target or a ship, or it can be a 121 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:24,000 pyrotechnic countermeasure that fires a flare to attract heat 122 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:25,760 seeking missiles. So that's essentially what the 123 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:29,480 decoy launcher does and and how the countermeasures operate. 124 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:33,240 So, so for us on cilia it is is a slightly different. 125 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,960 So older systems are typically fixed in place on a ship. 126 00:06:37,280 --> 00:06:41,160 So when a threat is detected, the ship would need to adjust so 127 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:42,800 that it could fire the countermeasure in the 128 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,280 appropriate position. What's really important here is 129 00:06:46,280 --> 00:06:49,640 that and sillier is actually trainable by its nature. 130 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,080 And what that means is it can rotate and be aimed, meaning the 131 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,080 ship doesn't have to respond and and move to these threats. 132 00:06:56,280 --> 00:06:58,560 That's really vital because the speed of missiles is 133 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,600 significantly different now to what it was 20 years ago. 134 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:06,320 So that's a vital capability and we recently won a, a £135 135 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,760 million contract with the UKMOD to give our navies this 136 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:13,160 capability to help us defend against attacks at sea. 137 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:14,960 So that's that, That's kind of the first one. 138 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,720 The the second one is is a product called Cratesense. 139 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,440 And this is a flexible sonar system which includes one of our 140 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:23,880 world leading toad array systems called Crater Wave. 141 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:26,600 But again, a little bit of explanation what that means. 142 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,880 A toad array is essentially an underwater surveillance system 143 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,920 that's made-up of acoustic sensors, usually hydrophones, 144 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,040 which are to really just underwater microphones which are 145 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,480 towed behind a ship on a long cable they used to detect and 146 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:43,640 trap underwater objects like submarines and other things. 147 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,840 Obviously a key part of this though is to correctly identify 148 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,840 the sounds you're picking up. What you don't want to do is mis 149 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:53,240 categorise a ship with a whale or a wave or something like 150 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:54,440 that. So that's that's kind of how a 151 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:57,320 toad array works and that's where kind of create sense for 152 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,200 us comes in. It comprises of a 20 millimetre 153 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,640 toad array and and that's quite small compared to traditional 154 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,240 toad arrays, which are more like 19 millimetres. 155 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,760 This smaller size naturally means it's lighter and therefore 156 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,920 uses a lot less power than traditional arrays and this 157 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,880 means that it can be fitted to a wider range of vessels. 158 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,760 Again, typically these older systems are more complex, 159 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,120 they're very large and they're really only suitable for 160 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,160 specialist navies and specialist ships. 161 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,840 Whereas again, this is this is more flexible so it can be 162 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,640 fitted on smaller ships and can even be used in an uncrewed on 163 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,320 an uncrewed vehicle too. This flexibility also means 164 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:37,760 that, you know, navies that are operating across large 165 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,000 coastlines or island regions where threats seem to be growing 166 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:44,440 at a faster rate can have this type of protection. 167 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:48,040 So this is an essential key product as we move forward in 168 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:49,920 the anti submarine warfare kind of world. 169 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,040 And again, we're, you know, much like Ryan Cillier product that 170 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:54,960 we talked about before, we're really proud to be supplying 171 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,800 Cratesense to a Southeast Asian Navy and which is really helping 172 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,920 them enhance their defence and again, and get this cost point 173 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,240 completely different to that that heavy infrastructure. 174 00:09:05,560 --> 00:09:08,880 And then probably lastly and it just rounding off the other 175 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,560 products we talked about earlier is our torpedo launcher system. 176 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,520 So this is designed as a lightweight system that can 177 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:16,840 defend against submarines and other threats. 178 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,560 For us our TLS or our torpedo launcher system is configurable. 179 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,400 One of our configurations is a triple launcher, which means we 180 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,920 can fire all three torpedoes from one unit at a time. 181 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,560 And this is quite a unique product as well because it's 182 00:09:30,560 --> 00:09:33,320 weapon agnostic. So navies aren't locked into one 183 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,040 safari or one round time. There are some configurations 184 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,920 that are needed, but that's, that's a, that's a unique thing 185 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,960 for us and it's relatively easy to maintain and much like our 186 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:46,520 other two products and we have recently secured contracts to 187 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,320 supply this to the Royal Malaysian Navy as well as navies 188 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,840 in Latin America. So hopefully that gives you a, 189 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,080 you know, a good flavour of what we're working on on a day-to-day 190 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:57,520 basis. Thank you for that, Steve. 191 00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:58,880 So yeah, it's really interesting. 192 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,320 And I wonder if I just might ask a different question before I 193 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:04,600 ask you about kind of what a typical day looks like. 194 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,120 At the beginning you talked about your career trajectory 195 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:12,080 almost as an engineer. I know that you're now in a kind 196 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:15,440 of director of programmes role. So I kind of project type role. 197 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,520 And when I listen to you talking about the various products that 198 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,560 SEA has, I was in my mind thinking as a kind of product 199 00:10:22,560 --> 00:10:24,840 management element to this. I mean as a kind of 200 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:29,080 professional, how do you kind of I identify so is it as an 201 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,000 engineer, as a project professional, as a product, a 202 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,560 development professional? Is it a bit of all of those? 203 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:36,440 Yes, it's a great question. I don't know if I've ever been 204 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,640 asked that. I, I, I see myself as a project 205 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:41,400 professional. And I think that's, that's 206 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,520 really important because I think it's a, it's a, it's a skill set 207 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:48,040 that provides a unique, a unique offer into the world. 208 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,080 And sometimes you don't always really notice that. 209 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,360 But I absolutely see myself as a, as a project professional. 210 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:57,000 And I'm fortunate that I've had some really fantastic rounding 211 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,960 in other areas. And I find that particularly in 212 00:10:59,960 --> 00:11:02,800 my current role in the defence, that my engineering background 213 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,800 is helpful. Honestly, it gives you that 214 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,240 broader understanding of what's actually happening on the 215 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,320 ground, what the team's really working on. 216 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,520 And, and because I've been there a little bit myself, albeit a 217 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:17,160 long time ago, you, you kind of see some of the challenges, but 218 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:18,560 also some of the really good things they do. 219 00:11:18,560 --> 00:11:21,040 So again, that's really helpful. And similarly, the operational 220 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:25,480 elements of my, my previous lives, I guess one of the better 221 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,040 words again, gives me that kind of understanding of what's 222 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,040 happened in other parts of our business, which again are vital 223 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,880 to projects. But now I absolutely see myself 224 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,440 as a project profession. But I'm grateful for your 225 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:38,560 beauties I've had. I was hoping that's what you 226 00:11:38,560 --> 00:11:41,760 would say. So in terms of your, your role 227 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:43,720 then at the moment. So you, you obviously got this 228 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,320 recently, recent promotion as the director of programmes. 229 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:49,600 You know, there'll be people listening to this that don't 230 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,400 have a sense of what that means in practise. 231 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,720 You know, what is, is there such a thing as a typical day? 232 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:57,920 You know, what is the, the remit of the role? 233 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,520 Can you tell us a little bit about about that, what that 234 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,040 means? Yeah, of course. 235 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,720 And I, I guess the first thing I can say is, as you would 236 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,000 probably imagine and everybody else would imagine, it's quite 237 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:09,600 broad. It's quite broad in scope. 238 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,120 And I suppose if you boil that right back, it's at its core. 239 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,440 I'm ultimately accountable the project and programme delivery 240 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,640 and performance of both projects and programmes across our 241 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:22,200 business. So that means I really need to 242 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,960 ensure that we've got the right capability in our teams, the 243 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,280 right structure and the right culture to ensure that we can 244 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,760 continue to deliver complex solution with both agility. 245 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,160 And that's a really big thing, particularly as our world is 246 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,080 evolving, but also assurance. So those are the kind of the 247 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,320 real, the core bits. I mean, we talked about some of 248 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:44,000 the, the competencies of SCA earlier and, and me 249 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,440 specifically, I leave a team structured around 8 distinct 250 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:49,520 business areas. And each of these areas are 251 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,720 responsible for delivering specialist capabilities to our 252 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,360 various customers globally range in for things like the torpedo 253 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,160 launches that are talked about to advanced solar systems to Com 254 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:01,160 system. So there's a lot in there too. 255 00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:05,120 And these teams are at the heart of our growth ambitions. 256 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,040 And, and through the projects that they're delivering and the 257 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,840 products they're creating, the project teams and the 258 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:14,120 engineering and technical teams within them are basically 259 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,040 delivering stuff that's reinforcing our reputation as a 260 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,480 trusted supplier. I suppose it is difficult to 261 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:23,680 really tell you what a typical day looks like, but ultimately 262 00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:27,440 my role really is about enabling teams to deliver high impact 263 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,280 solutions and and about clearing the path for them to be able to 264 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,120 do what they're good at. So yeah, it's absolutely that. 265 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:34,800 Really. Yeah, that makes sense. 266 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,120 So, so let's talk a little bit then about the kind of 267 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:42,480 commercial side of things. So my impression of the defence 268 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:46,600 sector traditionally, as has been, it's quite a high bar to 269 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:48,880 enter. So you know, like a new, a new 270 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,640 company turning up, for example, that wanted to compete with you, 271 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,280 I think would find it or historically would have found it 272 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:58,240 quite difficult for all kinds of reasons ranging from, you know, 273 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:01,680 national security, intelligence type thresholds to, to, to, to 274 00:14:01,680 --> 00:14:04,720 get through and so on. But also the, the, the, the, the 275 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:09,160 kind of level of, of technology and innovation, you kind of need 276 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:10,640 it. It would be quite hard as a new 277 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,360 player coming into that. However, now with advances in 278 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:18,360 tech and, and so on, I, I wonder whether that's changing. 279 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,800 And, and also just how as an organisation you just kind of 280 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,160 keep ahead of the curve because I guess you've also got 281 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,720 organisations similar to yours operating in other parts of the 282 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,600 world who are competing against you and supplying other 283 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:36,160 countries and so on. So how do you stay ahead of 284 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,600 what's going on and kind of continue to be innovative and 285 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,040 everything else? Yeah, you're right. 286 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,520 Actually the barriers to entries that were that's typically a 287 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,320 kind of subsiding a little bit now. 288 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,200 And we talk about the evolution in the defence base. 289 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:52,800 Obviously the government is well publicised, the government are 290 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,360 investing a lot of money in the Union and and this in this 291 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,440 increase in investment is absolutely driving a rapidly 292 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,200 evolving well. So innovation is typically 293 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,400 happening on multiple bunts. And what we're seeing is that 294 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,920 there's a major shift towards autonomous vehicles and, and 295 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:12,080 emerging sonar technologies. So for us, it's about making 296 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,160 sure that we're playing in the right places and that we're 297 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,000 using our skill sets in the right areas. 298 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,920 So, you know, a key area we're focused on is evolving our sonar 299 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:23,880 technologies to allow for faster updates, greater interrogation 300 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,600 of data, better fit with evolving navies and platforms 301 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,600 and giving that kind of improved cross functionality to different 302 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,160 domains and not just necessarily always the maritime domain. 303 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:37,080 Obviously this this transition to kind of unmanned vehicles 304 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:41,240 and, and investment in ships and marines into operability or the 305 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,160 ability to work with different systems is absolutely key. 306 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,280 And again, that's something that's at the forefront of our 307 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,400 mind when we develop. You know, they're essentially 308 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,880 got a modern defence. The, the thing about in terms of 309 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,880 staying ahead of the curb, we're really proud of SCA are all of 310 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:57,680 the ways that we kind of do that. 311 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,800 You mention about small businesses, we're uniquely 312 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,040 positioned here too in that we're still small enough that we 313 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:09,040 can respond quickly for changing demands and we can be agile and 314 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:12,960 we can pivot, but we're large enough that we can scale to 315 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,080 solutions. So the other thing that we do 316 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,720 and I talked about those products earlier is we invest 317 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,000 our own funds in product development and innovation. 318 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,920 So we're not always waiting. We're, we're investing ourselves 319 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:27,440 in, in private bench work and we, we determine how best to do 320 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:31,320 that through a few different means. 321 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,400 So we've got a a whole host of subject matter experts and 322 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,440 domain specialists within our business, which we're very 323 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,640 fortunate to have. We also have as we talked about 324 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,560 earlier, close relationships with navies and customers around 325 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,080 the world and kind of the combination of these help us 326 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,240 shape our product Rd mass to match what we see as the 327 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,600 immediate needs today, but give us a steal on what we think the 328 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,560 emerging needs are. So in some cases what we need 329 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:57,960 today is going to be a little bit different to what we need in 330 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:00,480 5-10 years time. So we have to kind of predict a 331 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:02,040 little bit, but we're well positioned. 332 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,400 The other nice thing that we do, so in those eight business areas 333 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,960 that have one of those of research and simulation business 334 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,200 area and that particular area works really closely with 335 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,520 defence science and the technology laboratory with PSTL 336 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,319 and they deliver research and studies for the UKMOD. 337 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:21,680 So this collaboration is, is also a great bus. 338 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:25,839 It doesn't just support cutting edge exploration, but it also 339 00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:28,160 ensures that all of the outcomes from that are strategically 340 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:29,440 along with what we're working on. 341 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,080 So again, it's another extra insight that helps us stay on 342 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,440 that front foot. So I suppose what I'm really 343 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:38,080 saying is, is that kind of blended approach between the the 344 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,640 technical work we do with the STL, the customer insight that 345 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,800 we have and some of our own kind of strategic foresight means 346 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:45,320 that we can kind of stay compared. 347 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:47,200 Yeah, that, that, that all makes good sense. 348 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:48,640 I like that idea of the sweet spot. 349 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,200 Small enough to be nimble, but large enough to scale. 350 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:52,280 That's that's really interesting. 351 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,760 What you, you didn't really touch on AI so much there. 352 00:17:56,360 --> 00:17:59,240 You know, it's obviously impacting every business in 353 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:03,400 every country. How is it affecting the the 354 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,920 sector, but specifically the work that you're doing on a 355 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,640 day-to-day basis? Yes, great question, isn't it? 356 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:13,440 And of course it's it's really easy and and really tempting to 357 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,240 get caught up in in with the hyper guiding AI. 358 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,120 And it also doesn't seem that sensible to ignore it. 359 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,880 At SCA, what we're doing really is identifying specific areas 360 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:24,800 where we can use AI in a targeted manner. 361 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,080 So again, we've talked a common effect through this so far has 362 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,800 been our solar systems, and that's where AI and machine 363 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,200 learning can be transformational to the way that we process data 364 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,880 and analyse data. So this is particularly crucial 365 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,840 for navies that are starting to use uncrewed vehicles. 366 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,680 So what we need are systems that can rapidly detect, respond and 367 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,800 even predict threats. And of course, all of that needs 368 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:48,840 to be done with minimal human intervention. 369 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,600 So in effect, what we're looking at is how can AI augment 370 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,280 traditional capabilities and reduce the workload of 371 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:59,120 traditional sonar operators and still enable fast data 372 00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:02,600 understanding an accurate, an aid accurate decision making. 373 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,040 So that's really where it's really making the biggest inroad 374 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:07,120 for us at the moment in our product offering. 375 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:11,440 But outside that, the use of AI is going to have an impact 376 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,920 everywhere else from meeting support to document production 377 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,280 to software development. It does sort of seem inevitable 378 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,040 that this is going to on everywhere to make everybody's 379 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,240 lives easier and, and really free up time for impactful 380 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:25,960 things. So, yeah, so for us, there's a 381 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,240 lot of hype, but what we're doing is making sure that we're 382 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:31,480 taking a measured, innovation driven approach to integrating 383 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,000 AI where we think it can make a real difference. 384 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:39,600 What I I hear and see out and about is the more that that the 385 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:44,080 defence sector kind of uses AI to keep people safe, the more 386 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,280 that people who are out there wanting to cause threats are 387 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,960 going to use AI to tackle that. You know, are we going to end 388 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,960 up, if I kind of get my crystal ball out for a moment now, are 389 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,920 we going to end up in a situation where when there is 390 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,280 conflict between countries and so on that we're going to end up 391 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,840 actually with just AI fighting other AI? 392 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:03,040 Is that is that where we're headed? 393 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,760 It's. Hard to predict, isn't it? 394 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,840 But the thing you write warfare, warfare is changing rapidly and 395 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,240 and that's what's driving, that's what's driving innovation 396 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:13,560 and and the big change in innovation. 397 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,760 So if you think about, you know, the war in Ukraine, it's being 398 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,840 fought in a different kind of way with drones and you know, 399 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:23,040 autonomous vehicles and AI driven responses and threat 400 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:25,120 detection. So it's not unreasonable. 401 00:20:25,120 --> 00:20:28,280 It's not, it's not unreasonable to think that, you know, it will 402 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,480 continue to change the way that warfare works. 403 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:32,880 And that's some of the challenge that we have and other companies 404 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,800 have where we have to predict what we need right now and what 405 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:37,560 we think we're going to use in the next couple of years. 406 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,760 But what will warfare and what will defence look like in in 407 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,360 kind of five years time? So it's difficult to answer, but 408 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:47,520 you're right, it is easier to see the defence, particularly 409 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,400 being, you know, more focused on our technology. 410 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,600 Interesting, interesting times. Now, I always talk about the 411 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,800 project profession and project management roles being kind of 412 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:03,720 transferable between sectors. But equally I also know that 413 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,720 there are some things that are specific to particular sectors. 414 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,080 You know, if you're working in the legal profession, delivering 415 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:10,920 projects, it's going to be different than if you're in 416 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:12,520 nuclear, if you're in defence and so on. 417 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,600 So when it comes to defence, what would you say is the things 418 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,040 that might be unfamiliar to people who are outside of the 419 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,000 defence sector? So what is it that your project 420 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,680 professionals are dealing with? Kind of, if you like, above and 421 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,720 beyond the standard expectations of project professionals. 422 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:30,840 It's, it is unique, you're right. 423 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,600 But like all sectors, managing scope is always a challenge. 424 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,680 I suppose the the thing in defence is, is that scope can 425 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,480 vary massively. So you can end up with a 426 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,400 situation where you have, you know, really detailed 427 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:46,840 requirements at a low technical level actually, and for a 428 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:48,440 different customer, you can have something that's really high 429 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,360 level and board. And I suppose the key for us is 430 00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:53,080 to interfere all of these types of things found them in a way 431 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,920 that aligns with our workload friends and quite honestly gives 432 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,240 us a clear, manageable contracting mechanism. 433 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:03,000 You know, with that variety in scope, it's really important 434 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,960 that we make sure that we can both get on and off contracts so 435 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,520 that they're quite important. But beyond that, one of the more 436 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,560 distinct challenges in defence sector, which we we kind of 437 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:16,040 always touched on is the pace of pace of change and the rise of 438 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:17,720 uncrewed and autonomous platforms. 439 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:19,880 So this means that we're constantly ensuring that 440 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,000 capabilities we're developing today will remain relevant over 441 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:24,680 the life of the project or the programme. 442 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:27,920 So we manage this, as we said earlier, by investing in our own 443 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:29,720 product development. But again, we need to make sure 444 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:31,720 that those products we're developing today do have the 445 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,480 ability to kind of pivot and diversify themselves or the 446 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,720 ability to spiral develop them and add future capabilities. 447 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,080 So that's also that's also quite important. 448 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,040 The, the irony here though, in the defence sector is that this 449 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:48,800 rapid pace at the innovation stage, it contrasted with the 450 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,760 long life cycle of a project. Once you're on contract, it's 451 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,680 not unusual once again, once you're on contract for a project 452 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,120 to run for 10 years or more, particularly once the capability 453 00:22:58,120 --> 00:23:00,800 is in service. So, so the change is kind of 454 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,360 shift. So at that point, skills 455 00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:06,920 retention, knowledge continuity and and maintaining long term 456 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,400 stakeholder relationship becomes really crucial because again, 457 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:15,080 it's not just a A1 to two year project and in, you know, in 458 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,960 sectors like IT potentially projects are a lot faster in 459 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,040 turn around. So we need to kind of consider 460 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:21,120 that. And then going back to that 461 00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:24,840 capability piece, over the course of that 1015 years, how 462 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:26,920 are we going to introduce spiral development? 463 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,240 How are we going to increase capability, particularly when 464 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,680 today we don't necessarily know what that's going to look like, 465 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,440 but you know, the physical system is there. 466 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,240 And of course, in that same time frame, you've got things like 467 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,760 obsolescence tonight. So again, things like processing 468 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,920 today and and the, the, the type of systems that are needed today 469 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:46,880 are going to look quite different to kind of 1012 years 470 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,640 time, particularly if we talk about AI advances. 471 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,120 So those types of things are, are quite different in our 472 00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:55,080 world. So I suppose while the core 473 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:59,240 principles are generally shared across lots of sectors, defence 474 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,720 demands a unique balance, that ability to move quickly and 475 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,920 innovate, but also kind of plan for longevity, sustainability 476 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,360 and mission critical delivery. So it's a bit of an oxy ball of 477 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:10,000 it. Yeah. 478 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,400 No, that makes sense. And so you talk about skills 479 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,200 there. Do you, when you're recruiting 480 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,880 for staff, do you kind of recruit kind of if you like pure 481 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,880 project professionals and then give them the extra that they 482 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:23,400 might need that you've just talked about? 483 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,240 Or do you try and recruit specifically to these quite 484 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,760 specialist kind of skills that you've you've talked about? 485 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,640 So if we, if we focus on the project management sphere for a 486 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,520 second, you know, the reality is we take a blended approach to 487 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,840 recruitment and we're actively looking to bring in experienced 488 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,040 senior project leaders, particularly with people that 489 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,240 have a background in, you know, defence project delivery, 490 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,240 because their sector knowledge and, and you know, educational 491 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,440 background, I mean, they can hit the ground running for us. 492 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,040 So they're, they're incredibly valuable. 493 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,280 But at the same time with with family committees developing 494 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,080 talent from within and that includes bringing in junior 495 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,480 professionals and helping them develop through our business. 496 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,280 Sometimes it means taking other people within others other 497 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,600 departments. So engineers are a good example 498 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,080 and cross training those, particularly when an engineer 499 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,640 demonstrates strong potential and a genuinely interest in 500 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,320 project management. But we also welcome individuals 501 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,720 from outside our sector who've got solid project management 502 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,160 fundamentals but might need support to build up that 503 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:22,160 industry specific experience. So that, that's kind of the, the 504 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,000 approach and obviously recruitment varies for us 505 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,560 massively depending on our site. So we got three sites in 506 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:28,600 Southwest. It's obviously easier to recruit 507 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,600 in Bristol for lots of reasons than it is in, in Barnstable in 508 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,880 North Devon. Both have their, both have their 509 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:35,800 other sides. So Bristol's obviously far more 510 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,720 competitive. Typically in New Devon, if you 511 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,160 join the company, you generally stay there because you're, 512 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,480 you're either living there for a work life balance or you're 513 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,080 moving to the area for a work life balance that you, you 514 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,360 otherwise don't have. So again, it's quite different 515 00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:50,640 and in possible this year we've actually got an employee that's 516 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,400 celebrating 50 years with the company. 517 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,240 So it's so those things are really are really, really 518 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,880 important for us. But again, that's where working 519 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,920 with you guys and, and, and the APM more broadly to make sure 520 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,360 that we create structure project management pathways in our 521 00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:05,480 business. We align with your competency 522 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,880 framework and we get our educational piece right. 523 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,040 So that actually if we aren't recruiting senior leaders that 524 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,000 that have been in our space for a long time, that we're able to 525 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,560 support that development. Now I hope, I hope it gets 526 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,960 something, a good gift for being there for that long. 527 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:25,120 That's what I would say. You talk about leadership there. 528 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,920 So let's, let's talk about that. You, you obviously are, you 529 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,160 know, a distinguished leader yourself. 530 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,480 You've probably worked with lots of distinguished leaders. 531 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,360 You know, what would you, in your opinion, say is like the 532 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,560 one most important trait of a great project leader? 533 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:45,280 If I could push you to do 1. If I had to pick one, I I would 534 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,760 go with emotional intelligence. And the reason I picked that is 535 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,360 because that's what ties everything together. 536 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,680 If, if you can't understand your people, if you can't feel 537 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,400 trustworthy teens and you can't leave with empathy, you're 538 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:02,000 really going to struggle to, to deliver this and you're going to 539 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,400 really struggle to create a team that can be really well 540 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,600 performing. If you've got that, you can 541 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,000 recognise when people are struggling and, and when you 542 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:10,960 reckon that could be the difference between project 543 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,760 stalling and being successful. If you can see when somebody 544 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,560 can't necessarily see the bigger picture and you can help that, 545 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:18,440 you'll encourage different things. 546 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,520 So yeah, there's a, there's a lot of right answers here, but I 547 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,360 probably would stick with emotionally intelligence. 548 00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:25,800 If you if you've got that and you're ready to kind of tie that 549 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,040 team together, that's that's the dinner. 550 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,400 Yeah, I'm, I'm actually really encouraged by that answer 551 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,160 because one of my kind of hobby horses, if you like, and people 552 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,960 who, who listen to me regularly on the podcast will know this is 553 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,800 I'm really pushing the kind of the people side of project 554 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:45,240 management and, and broadly speaking, the competencies fall 555 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,600 into kind of process and people type things. 556 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,440 We, we could have a debate about whether that's true. 557 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,640 But I, I, I, I argue that, you know, with the advent of AI and 558 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,400 everything else, the process side of things is probably going 559 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,400 to be the bit that gets eroded over time and that people side 560 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,600 of things, which is already important, becomes even more 561 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,080 important. And emotional intelligence, I 562 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,280 think is, is, is right up there. So I think that's a great 563 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:06,960 answer. Thank you. 564 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,240 Well, look, thanks very much Steve for for for joining us 565 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,240 and, and also to everybody who's listening or watching. 566 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,840 We'll be back in a couple of weeks, but in the meantime, if 567 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,640 you've got any comments or feedback, then please do e-mail 568 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:20,080 us. You can get us at 569 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:25,840 apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk or if you're a Spotify user, you 570 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,160 can leave us a comment directly in the app. 571 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,880 So that's it for this episode and we'll see you next time.