Hello and welcome back to infinite Quest.
So as you may know, by now Katie and I both struggle with
depression as well as ADHD in this past week.
Our depression has really been running wild so the tone of this
episode might be a little bit different I'm not going to clean
it up too much so I'm going to leave in the stutter is an alms
because one thing that Katie and I aspire to do as well as
educate people about these mental disorders is just paint
an honest accurate. Draw a picture of what they
actually look like. At the top of the episode.
We talk roughly about what we've been experiencing is couple
days. Then we move into sort of
generally what our depression is to us.
And then we move on to tips for people who love somebody with
depression and would like to support them.
And we end the episode with a couple things that we'd like to
say to you the listener. If you are feeling depressed
things, we try to remember when we are depressed.
Thanks again for listening, we're really happy you're here.
How do we, how do we start this episode?
Eric to find a pencil? Okay, we're doing a great job so
far. Alright, I have a pencil.
I have an infantile. I'm really proud of you that you
found a pencil that fast like I'm in this moment.
It's a genuine respect for your pencil findings.
All about that, that peg board on the wall that I always shoot
in front of that is that's not for show.
I keep Pens pencils brushes. I know you can't stuff like pens
and pencils over there thing is. I honestly don't know what I
keep up there. That's that's another part of
the problem. It's just I have some stuff up
there. That's awesome.
All right. Hi everybody.
Gosh sorry I'm the worst person. No, I'm not.
That's fine. That's amazing.
I'm talking about my friend that way.
Okay, here we go. I'm just forgot to put my thing
here. I ain't mine won't stay on my
microphone, so I just took to start it off.
I said if I discover that, I don't use this, I should have
for those clothes, those plosives started.
Close this, right, anybody with misophonia?
Hi everybody, this week's episode.
I don't remember what episode number, this is.
I think it's 20, this episode is going to be about ADHD and
depression because over the last three ish days up till kind of
still. Now, I've been really depressed.
I've hardly gotten out of bed. I'm sleeping.
Hang on like my raw mattress you know there's like no sheets on
it or anything. It's just my mattress and a
pillow and like a blanket. That's too small.
I will, I took my sheets off my bed because I was like, I'm
going to wash these and then I immediately got super depressed
and was like, I'm not going to wash these but I'm also not
going to put them back on my bed because I already took the dirt
a little bit, dirty sheets back on my bed.
So there's just been a pile of dirty sheets on my floor and
I've been sleeping on my raw mattress.
Anyways, so I think that for you Yeah, thanks.
I don't like it either, but, you know, thanks for your support.
Katie. You like use you personally and
thanks for your support listeners for, I don't know,
being wonderful and around and listening to us and saying nice
things on my Tick Tock, and, to the email and stuff.
Was that an intro? I don't know if I was an intro,
that sounds like, it was an intro, but I think people
appreciate hearing it, you know, let's go.
Yeah, I think I hope so. So this episode is about
depression straining. It's going to be a weird episode
of you weird episode. Yeah.
Disclaimer, first off according to cite sources, cited, by
attitude, magazine depression is estimated to be two point seven
times more prevalent among adults with ADHD that among the
general adult population. And studies also sorted by ADHD
maggot or 80 attitude magazine. So that about 30 percent of
people with ADHD experience, a depressive episode or have a
mood disorder at some point in their lifetime.
So, the two are on paper. Were related but they also I
think have some interesting just like internal under the hood
interplay in a person who has ADHD and depressions head.
Would you agree with that Katie Osiris?
I'm not gonna lie to you Eric. Did I just steal your know?
You just like you just went so fat.
Like you went so fast into the science that I didn't, my brain
didn't have time to like change gears so you just like, said
words at me and I like I'd had no time to prepare.
Like I was just like, what? What?
Oh, god were making content like I well if startled well I think
like I don't think this episode is really about the science.
Since I just wanted to say that to like point out that there
absolutely is a documented correlation between ADHD and
depression sort of get that out there.
Yeah. Well I was looking at some
studies to when we kind of toyed around about what we wanted this
episode to be. And one of the statistics that I
found that was really, really interesting was based on a study
done in 2006 by a dude named dr. Turgay and dr.
Gates Ran a bunch of studies and found that in this is the part
where it gets upsetting really quickly.
That seventy percent of people diagnosed with ADHD may
experience, depression in their lifetime and conversely people
who have been diagnosed with, like clinical depression tend to
have rates of ADHD that are between like 30 and 40%.
Whoa, that is a like. Yeah.
So it's like if you don't have Have wow.
It's like, you know, like one or the other, but like they're both
and that's like a shocking like 70%.
That's compared to. If I remember correctly, the
overall population average of people with ADHD is like thing.
It's 4.5% in women and just it's a bit above that in men,
diagnosis rate. That's like a staggeringly
larger percentage of people. Yeah.
And and if you look at the rates of like so and then there's been
all of these Their studies done it again, like, we don't need to
get a ton into the science, but I just I like science because I
think it's interesting, but like, there's been a lot of
other studies done that look at other comorbidities.
So things like depression, chronic depression anxiety
about, like obsessive compulsive disorder.
And in all of those, all of those, the rates of ADHD are
much higher. In those people who have gotten
those diagnoses Her diagnosis. I believe is how the science
people say. And that that's profound right?
Like that is I like for me. I mean I talk I say this all the
time, I say this constantly, like we don't talk about the
connections between like the comorbidities.
We talk about ADHD as though. First off like getting good
grades in school, is the end-all be-all of of how ADHD affects
your life. But then when you start looking
at statistics, like 70% of people with ADHD have
depression, you know, Eating Disorders, addiction Sleep
Disorders, like sexual In the, like all of those other things
and they're all related in some ways to depression, like,
depression, affects your sleep, and your sexuality and your
whether or not you use substances to cope like they're
also tied together. But the conversation still is
like well my seven-year-old won't.
You know, do is reading homework and I get so frustrated.
Yeah, I think it goes to that insidiousness of these of ADHD
and depression that we've referenced before that it gets
characterized so much by. I don't want to immediately go
into like the media. But it gets characterized so
much in so many ways as this school disorder that affects
young boys that makes them, you know, rambunctious and Loud and
won't do their reading. When it's in fact, it has its
fingers in so much. It has its fingers in in eating
disorders and sex and I mean incarceration rates, it's
insane. And the fact that it's
characterized as this sort of honestly, in a lot of ways, a
lot of people think of, as sort of being funny, like I remember
there's a the movie Accepted with Justin Long.
Know what others are. So there's this movie called
accepted. It came out just over 10 years
ago. It's Justin long and Jonah Hill.
It's a comedy movie. Made their own College.
Yeah, they make their own college is that like like
underwater basket weaving, or remember this?
Well, it should have been sure, doesn't matter, but well.
So there's this basically, yes, it's a great movie.
You should definitely watch it, but there's a kid in that movie.
There's a character in that movie, who has ADHD I He calls
it a TD at the time but he's yeah, his whole character is
that he has ADD and he's doesn't sit still and he's like virus.
He's just this caricature of ADHD and I think stuff like that
really detracts from the attention or detract from the
importance of paying attention to these calm aborted
comorbidities that come up with it and it makes perfect sense
that these comorbidities would come up with ADHD, particularly
depression like my depression. Started really early and it
started looking back largely because I wasn't performing the
way that I wanted to in school. I was probably I think I was 11.
The first time I told my parents that I wish I'd never been born.
But I think the ADHD the I noticed, all of my, you know, my
classmates could sit there and quietly read or all of my
classmates had better penmanship than me and all of my
classmates, you know, didn't feel the urge to make a joke
every You know, time they possibly could and get as much
attention as possible. Not that those things are
directly related to ADHD although some of them absolutely
are. But that bread my depression
where I became so insecure about the way that I behaved, or the
way that I wished, I would behave that I started.
Combating my, I guess my class cloudiness, with depression, I
would basically in order to try to stop myself.
Elf from talking a lot or fast or loudly or getting excited.
I would recede into myself because I had like taught myself
that that was a bad thing to be and so I sort of that and that's
when like my depression met my ADHD and they were like oh hello
ADHD. I'm depression.
Oh, hello depression. I'm ADHD.
This is going to be the beginning of a long and
beautiful friendship. Well, beautiful to them, I
suppose. Although I do try not to think
of them as being malicious but sometimes it's hard.
It's the worst Pixar movie pitch ever.
They did exactly that movie, didn't they?
Sure like something pretty close?
I think called outside in, I think.
Yeah, the right. Is that what it's called?
That's right. Inside out.
I think right now is it's called, no, it's called Inside
Out. I was I was being hilarious
being a silly goof. We're being a silly goof ball.
That was really funny. You're really fine guy, super
funny. We're crushing this episode.
I feel like, yeah, polygon. Well, what's your experience
with it? I mean, you don't want to, I
don't want to speak for you, so I don't want it, like
contextualize this question, but what do you, what's your
experience with depression? ADHD?
Did you learn about one before the other?
What's up? I mean it's actually really
weird. Like my relationship to my
depression is really weird and I actually been thinking about it
a lot today because the video I posted earlier but like I spent
most of my childhood. Just thinking that everybody
else felt the same way I did. Like everybody else felt the
same way and I think that has been the hardest thing to
unlearn and the hardest thing to realize and the hardest thing to
I think almost except sometimes like even past the ADHD
diagnosis because like I get like angry I get frustrated that
like nobody caught it and that like, you know, my life could
have been very different but I think the harder thing NG is the
depression. because, I just know it never got treated it, never
got dealt with it, never got acknowledged because nobody told
me that it wasn't normal to want to die.
Like nobody told me that it wasn't normal to just be sad all
the time. And to and then also like to
even further, complicate it like my depression doesn't
necessarily manifest as like sat.
My depression manifests as like, numb, disinterest, lack of
motivation. You know, I stopped taking care
of myself, but I also have ADHD and so like, I'm always messy
anyway, I'm always disorganized anyway.
I'm always struggling with basic tasks.
Anyway and so a lot of the times like my my experience with Both
at the same time as so to sort of like a linked and like this,
vicious vicious cycle of I'm depressed.
And so now my house is dirty, but now I'm not depressed.
In my house is still dirty. So like what's the fucking
point? Like, why do I try?
Why do I bother like it? And it sucks and it's
frustrating. I kind of got off the point but
like, I don't know, like I really struggle with it because
now I'm an adult and I have like a dolt responsibilities.
But like, there's part of me that just like knows that I'm
not, okay, you know, like there's part of me that just
knows that But it's really really hard to unlearn 30-plus
years of like you just need to suck it up.
It's really really hard and that is something that I've actually
been struggling with like a lot lately.
Like a lot? Was that an answer?
I feel like maybe that was an answer.
I don't know. That was an answer.
I remember the time I was in my therapist office when I was like
15. And yeah, I remember that moment
where I said to her. Well yeah, of course, I wish I
wasn't alive. Like, do you not like, do you
enjoy this? What?
I mean. Come on.
Sort of like this. Whoops, you know, like I was
fully expecting her to just be like, I know, right?
And she was like, Eric. Yes, like, yeah, I do.
Like my life. Like, I, like being alive.
What do you not? And I was just matter-of-factly,
just know. What are you kidding me?
Like sure. I like some things.
I like certain movies and TV shows and I like eating
blueberries. I like blue bear.
I still like blueberries. Um, but like generally no of
course not. Like if I could snap my fingers
and never have been born, of course I would.
Would you not like what sane person wouldn't?
And yeah, that moment we're realizing that not everybody
feels this way. It's, I mean, I feel like I
should have better words for it because this is a podcast, but
it's just fucking strange to look around at other people.
Going like holy shit like this person enjoys stuff.
This person likes being here. This person is has a life that
they wouldn't. You know, that they are glad
that they were born such to have and that still like blows My
mind sometimes when I'm in my darker moments that people can
have such immense pain but it's still apparently worth it for
you know, the joy that they've created for themselves.
And I acknowledge that that's true.
And I'm I try to exist in the awareness that that is
objectively. True, I'm aware that I am
capable of creating a life for myself.
Such that even the worst moments will still be worth it meeting.
You actually lent, pretty pretty strongly towards helping to work
towards that goal. Oh, by the way.
So thanks for that. Not really.
But maintaining that awareness is really hard and so just to
sort of to explain what depression is to meet.
I think it might be useful for us to describe like what
depression is to us specifically because I think a lot of people
who don't have depression think of it as like being really sad
which I guess some people might be true.
But just to contextualize what we're talking about.
Yeah, I think we just like our ADHD tends to manifest
differently. I think we also have different
manifestations of depression, like, I think are symptomatic.
Miss, that's how scientists say, it's symptomatic.
But is that's, that's just science.
And good is different enough that I think that's actually
like a really interesting conversation.
So like, what Is yours. My depression is.
God, I've been thinking about this for three days straight and
I still it's still just hard to say I guess is it feels like
etching it in stone which when you're recording that's people
who listen to podcast like that. A lot when you reference the
fact that this is a podcast, they like that.
I really am. My depression is one.
It's exists out of time. It's not aware of any future,
it's not aware of any past. It's just there's a black wall
of nothing in front of you to borrow a phrase loosely from
Stephen Fry and there's nothing behind you.
Like this is all there is. Now, is this feeling, that's it?
There's nothing. And there is no understanding
that this will pass, there's no understanding of time passing or
that, you know, I'm capable of feeling any different ever.
It's just, this is all there is now.
And every second I spend alive is going to be spent feeling
this way from now until the end of time.
So the the Mystic quality of it. I think is important to bring up
and then also this is something that I think is important for
people without depression who know and love somebody who has
depression to know is that Was there is nothing that I can
conceive of in my depression or depressive state that would
bring me pleasure. Nothing?
There's nothing. Nothing is worth the effort of
moving. So if I'm in bed, which I likely
am, if I'm depressed, even just rolling over in bed, is not
worth the effort. I'll just lie there and not
move. That's not worth the effort.
I've heard this called anhedonia.
Yeah, the idea, the concept, Depth of not being able to feel
pleasure. And so a lot of times, you'll
get self help people or something.
Well, I want to just clarify it that way because that's sort of
cynical. But a lot of times people who
mean very well, you know, the loved one of a person who's
experiencing depression will say do something you enjoy.
You know, you really like playing music or you really
like, I don't know, making little models out of coffee,
stirrers. And that may still be true that
they they do enjoy that thing. But it is for me and I don't
speak for anybody else, but I've heard a lot of people say this,
it is inconceivable that there is anything that could bring me
joy. My favorite things to do when
I'm not depressed, now are just effort.
There's it's all just effort. There is no Pleasant activity,
it's just effort and so just nothing is worth the effort.
Why would I get up from this chair?
And so that's roughly what it is for me is its It's a complete
lack of understanding of how time is passing.
This is all there is. This is all there ever will be
and to there is nothing nor will, there ever be anything
that could bring me? Joy, ever.
So, I might as well just maybe as numb as possible and try to
just make the rest of my life, tolerable in whatever.
Possible way I can, whether that's substance abuse or
becoming addicted to something. Or, I don't know, it's or I
don't know. I mean that's, this is the
depressed, depression episode. So I feel like it's okay to to
stumble around in mutter, but but, but so, that's, that's
basically, it's the anhedonia of not understanding that things
can give you pleasure and the complete inability to conceive
of this ever passing is kind of what it is to me.
That's really good answer. I hope so.
What is it? What is it to you?
Because I think, you know we've both been around each other when
were depressed and I'm curious. What is it for you?
That's weird because I want to say weird but the thing that I
think is interesting and I think this has to do with personality
as much as it has to do with like symptomatic depression, is
that I worry so much about being an inconvenience.
Everybody else that even in the throes of my depression, I will
actively do things that make my depression worse.
If I think it makes the people around me more comfortable.
Mmm. And that is a really like I know
that's not healthy and I know that it's a bad habit but it's
something that I do a lot because my depression is funny
that you said a black wall because mine tends to feel like
static like that is what my depression feels like.
I feel like if the world is like vibrant color and you know, the
world is most of the time, you know, I get the world and
vibrant color and then there's like these days where everything
sort of goes gray and staticy and I literally call like, I've
personified my depression is like a gray cloud like so I'll
refer to it as like I'm having like a gray cloud day or
whatever. But I feel like I force myself
to fight through that static and I force my way through that gray
cloud in order to like perform normally and then it just gets
worse and that's something that's like real.
And once I started realizing that I was doing that.
Are you started working a lot harder on like not doing which
is like oh brilliant, don't do the thing that's not on health
like healthy. What the fuck was I talking
about? Jesus Christ, you're talking
about the gray cloud and then how you put forth effort to
reform in a way that you think of as being like sort of normal
or business as usual, such to not inconvenience.
Other people, look at that, you remembered all I'm really proud
of you. I definitely forgot to take my
meds today. It's fine again.
She said shining Bashi an example of take her meds
everybody take her meds Katie. Take your meds drink your Drink
some water. Oh, but anyway, so like because
for me like my depression manifest is sort of like the
static and so like it's a lack of focus, it's the lack of
interest, it's fatigue and it's like a general sort of like I
don't know say like existential dread but I spend a lot of time
thinking about just like the fact that like everyone I know
and love is going to die and that's upsetting, you know and
so Because it's like fatigue and lack of focus, and lack of
motivation. Which already shows up in my
ADHD. I feel like I have to go harder.
I feel like I have to prove myself more.
I feel like I, you know, I can't just lie in bed, you know.
So I'll go completely in the opposite direction.
And so for really long time, actually, when I started going
to to therapy, there is a really long sort of I swear, they
thought that I might have bipolar, but but it because
they're like, my therapist was like, well you're manic.
You're manic right now and I'm like, I'm not.
I'm just acting like it because like, that's my reaction is fuck
you brain. If you're going to be sad, I'm
going to be happy as fuck. Fuck you.
And so like that is what I've done for really long time is to
balance out the scales. And so like it was funny.
Because when I was on mental illness, happy hour with Paul
go, Martin Shameless, plug, one of the first things he said to
me was like, well, you seem really happy?
And I was like, that's because I was depressed as fuck, that day.
And so I went into this interview being like, hi, I'm
Katie, it's loras, and thanks for having me on famous ball
Gilmartin. When, in reality, I was just
like, I'm awful, everything is awful, I hate this.
I, everything is terrible and I want to die.
And so it's like that's a perfect example, you know, and
like yeah, yeah, I think part of the not to use this term too
much stay, but the insidiousness of depression, is that it wants
nobody to know that, it's there. It seems like it's it's it wants
to hide itself from other people, almost like a like
Giver. Did you ever play the game
pandemic? So Flash game on the old
internet? Yeah, it's a game.
Where basically you design a disease board game too.
Oh yeah, we should play that. Oh my gosh, we should totally
play that. I've got an extra copy of the
Legacy version. If you want to play Legacy,
can't have excited. I'm definitely want to play.
Like it's a pandemic but then the The Flash game is you
basically designed a disease, such to take over the whole
world. Sega relevant and the best
strategy in that game was to develop a disease.
That was basically secret, that know, that had no visible
symptoms that way, there would be no precautions taken by like
the world that you're playing against such to stop it, such to
combat it. And depression seems to be kind
of that way in a lot of people, it wants to convince other
people that it's not there. It wants to convince The person
who has it but it's not there sometimes and that's terrifying.
Yeah. I mean that happens to me all
the time is like that's what like for me like that's one of
the hardest things. It's like my depression
convinces me that my depression is not real.
Yeah. And that I'm just faking it for
attention or that you know I'm just being overdramatic or any
other thousands of reasons. And then I have to actively
remind myself like no, you have a mental illness and it is lying
to you. Is very surreal sometimes.
Yeah it really is. It's like that saying of the the
worst thing at the bottom of the fourth, the actual sang, but the
the worst thing the devil ever did was convince people, they
didn't exist. I think depression is a lot that
way and depression is in a lot of in much like ADHD depression
can disguise itself to The Afflicted person as a moral
failing. Yeah, absolutely.
Somebody When we were taking questions for our, the last
episode, The Q&A episode. Somebody said a question that
really struck me that I did not know how to answer.
They ask the question, how do I know if I have ADHD or if I'm
just lazy and I don't have an answer.
That's a terrifying question because I believe there is such
a thing as lazy. I don't think the word lazy
means nothing. I think there's such a thing as
lazy. So where's that lot?
Because sometimes like I am sometimes just lazy like last
night my roommate and I ate meat balls my room and I posted it.
Take talk about how I was depressed and my roommate was
like hey she reached out, she was like hey let's let's have
dinner tomorrow let's have like a cleaning party and we'll get
our shit together in a late dinner nose.
Nice. And then after dinner she did
the majority of the dinner stuff and so like in my New England
upbringing, if you don't cook then you do the dishes and so
that's is what you do. And so there was there were like
four plates there. Well, there are three, there
were two plates, a pot, two forks, and two spoons.
And I said, I'm not going to die set out loud.
Like I promise, I'll do these, but I'm not going to do them
right now. And I was walking away from the
sink. And like I was fully ready to
blame depression or blame executive dysfunction and in Z,
indeed, those things were absolutely working against me,
but I was like, No, just I'm also but there's also some
laziness going on here. I like, I can muscle through the
one minute that it would take me.
And so, I turned around, and I did this very small amount of
dishes, I actually it's worth. I'm very proud of you for doing
that. Thanks very much and boy, was it
nice to wake up this morning and they're not be dishes Cole boy.
That was great. So I I think the question of
what is laziness have to do with all.
This is a really a terrifying question to address because one
depression ADHD are real. They're not just excuses for
laziness like definitely of course they're not but that's
one of the tools that depression when it's being malicious
depression and ADHD when they're being malicious, that's one of
the tools they have in their Arsenal to convince you that
you're just a piece of shit and if depression can convince you
that it's a piece of I shit, it can fortify.
And so, I think it's important to understand that.
Laziness is a thing but it's not depression.
Depression is another thing, depression is not just uncheck
laziness, which is what it often tries to convince me that it is.
Yeah, I agree. I also am just has like a weird
place to bring this up but like What should we talk about for
the rest of the episode? Well, I have a couple ideas, I
think, honestly in the opener, you listener will have already
heard this, but I'm going to make the intro saying, like, hey
this is going to be a little bit less polished than usual because
I think, you know, when we're talking about hygiene and sex
and stuff, that's one thing. But I think when we're just
talking, frankly, about depression or an ADHD, I think
it's important to leave in the rawness of it and be like, hey,
this is really what it is. I agree.
I mean, do you ever feel I do honestly, like guilty?
Because it's not the right word because I refuse to feel guilty
about it. But like I have this like,
weird. I always feel like I'm living
this crazy double standard we're like I get on Tick Tock and I
make these videos that are like super reassuring and super like
you're not broken and you're not alone and they're funny and I
pretend to be mr. Rogers.
Hers. And I, you know, and I just do
like dumb little things because like they make me happy and they
make me happy and I think maybe they make other people happy and
like I enjoy doing them and I have a good time.
But then there are other days where like Or even I would say
like afternoons. Like I woke up this morning and
I felt pretty fine but like as the afternoon has gone on like
this day has just gotten like harder and harder and harder.
And so like, I just, I don't know.
Like, I always feel like this guilt or like, I'm somehow
complicit in the lie that like, I'm okay, and I'm
misrepresenting me and I'm misrepresenting who I am.
And I like, I never know how to navigate that because like I
loved the video that you posted. I loved that video.
That you posted about like not being okay.
And I've posted videos like that before, but like, I don't know.
Like I feel such like a to use a Raise that you already said,
like I feel such like a moral obligation to present myself as
like happy and put together and okay because like I don't want
to be a disappointment and I don't want to let people down
and like I don't want people to feel the way that I do and like
now I'm going to fucking cry on my goddamn podcast but like
that's like that's the thing is like I just I don't want people
to feel like this. because I hate it and I wouldn't wish it
on anybody until like I never know how to navigate that I
never know how to navigate those feelings of like I'm actively
doing something wrong by not talking more about how hard it
is but by talking about how hard it is, It's a downer, you know,
like I feel bad that we're doing this episode.
I'm like, should we even? I'm sitting here ranting into a
microphone and I'm like, should we even fucking record like
publish this episode? Like, is this going to be like,
too much? Because I feel like we're like,
I don't know. Like I don't I don't know what
the fuck I'm talking about. Just ignore me.
I'm sorry. Well, Katie, I for one, that's
that's five bucks in the sorry jar.
You're going to be so goddamn rich.
Well I think I don't think it's true that being a downer and and
being helpful are mutually exclusive at all.
I think a lot of times I have been helped by seeing somebody
do something that I'm sure they didn't think was helpful.
I think, well, I think being frank and honest and vulnerable.
Is intrinsically helpful because it lends whoever sees that the
permission structure to be vulnerable and raw and honest
themselves. And so it's certainly one way to
be helpful is to, you know, put on the ACT and try to be
entertaining while also being educational and all that.
And that's all genuine. Like I don't, I hope you don't
think of that as being in genuine because ultimately I
know you Katie and I I know that your incentive is to be useful
and helpful to other people, almost to a fault, becoming a
problem, but that's not the only way to do it being raw and being
yourself. Even in even those dark moments
lens, a permission structure to other people to accept
themselves and understand that. That's okay.
And also, I don't think I don't think it's dishonest to even
when you're feeling bad when you're feeling depressed to put
it on for a second and record a video or to say to somebody,
it's going to be okay, even though in that moment, you're
not entirely sure but you know, intellectually that it will be
the I don't, that's not dishonest, it's not your
obligation to share. How you feel exactly all the
time. I mean, modern society would
collapse If that's what we did but it is it is helpful if you
do decide to do that. And so, I mean I see where
you're coming from and I feel that way a lot to like when I,
you know, when I'm going through like major depressive episodes
and I'll post like one video of me saying, like it's all going
to be okay. I'm not lying.
I know that it's all going to be okay.
Like, I've saved that in my memory bank, that that's true.
But my entire being is trying to convince me that that's not the
case. But it's I'm now I'm now I'm
spinning a little bit but that's okay.
Let's start today. This is a unique experience
that's just to say that it's not dishonest to be anyway.
I mean, if I, I know I know for a fact that your intentions are
always good. And that's not something that
you could hide. Even if you tried, I mean,
you're a damn good actor, but you, you can't hide that your,
you can't hide your good intentions things.
Here, I have a, I have a I have a real question for you.
This is a funny question. What's that is a real honest
question because this is something that I struggled with
is like for a really long time. I was like, so you know, we've
been sitting here we've been recording this podcast and like
We're making each other laugh like you know not like a bra
rias because you're not that fucking funny.
Don't get a big head about it but like we're laughing and
we're like we're having a good time and we're having a
conversation and I think like one of the weirdest things for
me was realizing that I can laugh and be horrific lie
depressed at the same time. Mmm, you here.
And like, I wish people talked about that more like I wish
people talked about the fact that like being depressed is not
just being sad, and I think it also goes sort of along the
lines of like, you know, all comedians are the saddest
people, you know, but like I like I always feel weird about
it. I always feel weird about like
over recording a podcast about depression and I've been
laughing in the background. Like people aren't going to
believe that I have depression, like people aren't going to be
Believe that I'm struggling because I'm laughing, I just
think that such like a unique. Depressive thing of like not
like your depression being such that like you, you don't even
want to give yourself the permission to feel those
occasional moments of Joy because like, but I have to be
depressed completely depressed and it's like that's just not
how it works, you know. Yeah.
I think there are definitely been depressive episodes that
lasted longer Because I, you know, I was, let's say I'm with
my family and we're on a, we're doing a thing and I'm depressed,
my whole family knows I had depression.
So it's not like a secret but so I'm depressant, you know, we
have protocol but then something will happen.
Usually, somebody will make me laugh and that'll like jar, my
head enough to where like I can open the door, a little bit to
maybe get out of it and I can go oh, like I I start to feel Joy a
little bit again but then I like go.
Nope and I shut the door because I don't want them to feel like I
was lying more that to like and also I'm just relaxing in this
in this very moment. I don't want to feel myself like
I was lying, I don't want to feel like I was lying to myself
that whole time like oh it's just that easy somebody made a
fart joke and now it's done. Like and that's just my God,
it's just What a dick move depression.
What a dick move to be? Like, I don't know, I'm just
realizing I did. I do that all the time.
I decide to stand that decide. But like I tipped the scales
towards remaining depressed because I yeah, I want people to
not think that I was just lying that whole time because I didn't
want to talk or something. I don't know.
That's so weird that you do that.
I feel genuinely less alone in like a weirdo in this moment.
To thank you for telling me that Hello, welcome to the middle of
the episode. Thanks for making it this far.
I just wanted to give a quick shout out to our newest, patreon
subscribers, Virginia. Abby jesslyn, Elizabeth Corey
Khalifa, Beth, Lois, Mickey, Aryan and Crystal.
Thanks so much. If you'd like to become a member
of our patreon and get access to some exclusive content, as well
as help support Katie and my's goal.
Love educating and advocating for mental illness.
You can find our patreon page at patreon.com slash infinite
Quest. Every dollar goes towards our
dream of being able to do this full-time, we really feel that
we found our purpose talking about this kind of stuff and it
would just mean the world to us if we could dedicate Our Lives
to it. Thanks so much for that.
Further to back to you soon. So we're kind of talking about
like our experiences with depression and you know, because
I think those are important conversations to have because I
think the the experience of living depression is not one
that we talked about a lot. We talked about depression and
like a conceptual way we talk about like the symptoms of it or
whatever, but we don't talk about the realities of like
sometimes people are going to make fart jokes and you're going
to laugh and still want to die, you know?
but like, so, If I'm listening to this podcast and you know, my
partner or whoever has depression like what advice
would you give for somebody who is wanting to support and like
doesn't know how because it's hard.
It's really hard to support a depressed person.
I think in the way that you might support somebody with like
ADHD like it's different. It's a different set of
challenges. It's a different set of.
It's like a moving constantly moving Target.
I think, but like so what what do you need, like, what helps
you? That's a fantastic question.
I think depression is sort of, in a realm of its own in terms
of how to support somebody with it.
Because when let's say my ADHD, if, if one were to ask me, how
do I support you Eric with your ADHD?
I'm capable of saying, oh, well, you could remind me to not
forget my keys, like I have my brain is functioning in a way
that I can still ascribe value. You two things that I need like,
oh, I forget to eat. So if you could every once in
awhile hand me a banana that's that's great.
But depression is I like, we say this all the time but I always
mean it. I don't want to speak for
everybody, but depression is often such a thing that the
person who has depression or is experiencing depression is in a
depressive episode, they have no fucking clue what they need at
all. It just it couldn't possibly
occur to them like that at any Adonia.
Like, if somebody says to me, if I'm depressed and somebody knows
that I'm depressed and they say, hey, do you want to take a walk?
No. I don't want to do anything.
Like, do you want to watch a movie?
No, I don't want to do anything. I would like to not be alive.
That's what I that's the only thing.
One. So understand that the person
who is depressed, likely doesn't know what would help them.
They're not always just being dismissive of the question, they
genuinely have no idea. So the advice that I would give
is when you see your partner, the person you're trying to
support when you see them enjoy something, whether it's watching
golf or or watching stand-up comedy, or whatever, when you
see somebody to sort of log that in your head of, that's a low
effort thing that this This person enjoys, what this they
enjoy this movie. They enjoy this podcast.
They enjoy drinking hot chocolate log that because when
they are depressed, they're not going to remember any of that
shit. They're not going to remember
that, they enjoy things and so rather than sort of asking like
you do you want to take a walk, do you want some hot chocolate?
What do you want to watch? Just put one of those things on
just put on stand-up comedy like if they're in bed or something
like that, just like Take your computer, they'll shut it.
If they don't want to watch it like don't don't force them to
but just make it happen because they're likely incapable of
making those types of decisions or figuring out what they need
at that time. So, I would say try to have like
a log of things, that low-effort things that's important,
something they don't necessarily have to get dressed or out of
bed for, but low effort things that they enjoy that you can
just sort of give to them, like, here's Is Dane Cook's Comedy
Central presents special or something like that?
Or here's Caddyshack. I made you hot chocolate.
So avoid asking those questions of what do you want?
Because they have no fucking idea.
Just provide them with things but again, don't don't room, you
know, don't remove their autonomy, don't force them to
watch something, you know, if don't put the laptop across the
room so that they have to get up to go close it, you know, they
give them an out but just say, hey, I made you hot chocolate.
Here's this Here's that that tends to help me.
So yeah I guess just knowing that they don't really, they
don't know what helps. And so perhaps just remember
some stuff that they enjoy. It's really good advisor.
I hope. What would you say?
Put a blanket in the dryer. Yeah.
And if it's weighted. Cool.
Oh, boy. Because like honestly, like, I
like, I think one of the things like, and this is, this is real
is like are like, here's A pro tip Eric, you can have this one
for free like one of the things that I am so bad at is because
like I generally don't feel like I like in something I've been
working on for a while but I like generally don't feel like
I'm like worthy of care and love most of the time anyway.
So like my depression will double down on that and so
things like washing my hair or brushing my hair or brushing my
Teeth. Like I'm like, it doesn't
matter. Like I don't like it's like,
that's like a luxury, you know? And so things like clean
underwear or like like warm socks, like that kind of thing
like those to me are. Like, those are like huge
gestures to me, like somebody taking the time to like, put a
blanket in the dryer and like, just come give it to me, like
that kind of thing. Mmm.
And like, because like it's also funny because like, I actually
disagree with the advice that you just gave.
I think it's really good advice for you.
But for me, I like and again like I wish that I had words to
describe this experience because it is so bizarre.
Azhar. But it's like if I'm depressed
and you came in and you were like, hey Kati, I know that your
favorite show in the whole world is slings and arrows which it
is. Let's watch slings and arrows,
depression, brain, Katie would go.
Eric is just watching slings and arrows to humor me.
He doesn't like this show. He's suffering through it.
You're a terrible friend and a terrible partner for making him.
Watch this dumb show. Like you're a piece of shit.
He's miserable. When he doesn't want to be here
because like, that's what my brain does.
So I would be like, really uncomfortable if you came in
with a laptop with my favorite show because like my depression
would just tell me that like you're just doing it to be nice
and therefore I'm an inconvenience, that's that's
really interesting and I don't mean to interrupt you but I do
that. I do want to clarify that after
in my one of the advice that I gave which is I mean come on
that's the important stuff. I'm sorry when you put the
laptop down with Her favorite show on.
Are you bring them hot? Chocolate.
Leave after that? Leave because he, I want some I
want to be like, I want you to stay.
Oh, really interesting? Okay, that's the other thing.
Like again, like I think this is like a really good example of
like Different Strokes for different folks.
Like I'm sorry. I said that I've never said that
before. I will never say that again.
Um, I think you're subconsciously telling me what
your favorite of show, actually is.
I mean, I am. It's fucking Slings and arrows.
Shut up. But like, yeah.
Like, I like, I don't want to be alone but I also don't want the
burden of like I shouldn't be a burden but like I don't want the
Added responsibility of entertaining.
So like if, if you are just like, you know, if you just come
in the room and you're like, hey, I'm going to watch this
thing then, like, I might passively watch it with you, you
know, I'm not like, I don't know if I'm going to be invested in
it. Mmm, but like the, what was the
thing that you were showing me the last time like those, like
Vsauce documentary. Oh yeah.
Shit. Like that is perfect.
Just something that's like 10 minutes.
It's not long. It's low stress.
Yes. But I can just like be in the
room with you and I can just sit quietly, I can fuck on my phone.
I can, you know, I can do whatever I would.
Like my depression brain is telling me or I can just sit
there and fucking, you know, stare into the middle distance.
But like, yeah, like I want, I just like want someone to be
there too to acknowledge that I'm not alone and that Yeah,
like just like acknowledge that I'm not alone.
That's really. Wow.
Well, I I don't, I don't recant my previous advice because for a
lot of people that's true. Sometimes for me, it's true.
I just want to be alone because I'm embarrassed or whatever, but
I think you're not giving them an obligation, be it
subliminally or explicitly implicitly or explicitly like
fruit. So for example, if I were to
come in and put on what I know to be your favorite show that I
know it like I know You will not to know that that puts in your
head. Oh, Eric, just watching this
show for me. Now, if I don't pay attention,
I'm being that's it's like a dick move.
I don't pay attention. But like, you know, something
that I and I think I've asked you to do this Katie when we're
together. It's like, if I'm in bed, you
can just like, sit on the bed with me or like like like and
just you'll just be on your phone and dick around and do
whatever. So like which doesn't put any
pressure on me to be entertaining or to pretend to
enjoy a show or anything like that.
It's just your Physically there. Yeah, so I think it, I guess, it
depends. On the person, which I guess,
would lend. I mean, given what I said, were
the person might not know what they need in the moment.
If when they're depressed, have those conversations when they're
not depressed. I was literally just going to
say that I was like, Rex tip is don't ask these questions when
they're in the throes of depression.
Yeah, I asked them when they're not and knowing that it's hard
to remember what it's like to be depressed when you're not
depressed, and it's hard to remember what it's like to not
be depressed when you are depressed.
So there, you know, just know that they're not, there might
not. Be like in crate, like crazy
specific accurate, but you'll get more useful information that
way than asking them when they are depressed or check in with
somebody, like, after a depressive episode and say,
like, hey, what so what could I have, like, when they're out of
it, but it's still fresh in their mind because those
depressive episodes there, like lights off, like they're these.
I'm trying to think of like a sign.
An example from like a science movie, but like, you can't
really get in there. It's like this.
Darkness. But right after it you can kind
of say, so, tell me what that was like, do you or do?
I mean consensually, like, say, do you want to talk about it,
you know, or can we talk about it?
But yeah, try to get that information out of them.
Which sounds what we're trying to add to have those
conversations when they're not depressed.
Such that they can use their brain effectively?
Yeah. And I think I would add to that.
I think that's great advice, but I would also add like understand
that, like, it has taken me, Literally literally 12 years to
be able to confidently unpack to this point and like I'm not like
I don't have all the answers. I don't necessarily think that
like, my advice is like that good.
But like, you have to be patient because particularly like, I
think, for people who have been struggling alone for a while or
struggled sir, Going without diagnosis like that kind of
thing. They might not know what they
need. And I think even more
importantly, a lot of people have never been asked, what do
you need? And a lot of people have never
been asked, how can I support you?
And I think that and this is something that like weirdly kept
coming up this past week on Tick, Tock for me the resistance
to that, the resistance to asking that question because
like, well, I don't want to I sound like a weird therapy robot
that's so weird and uncomfortable and I don't want
to sound like a camp counselor and, you know, I don't want to
be inauthentic like asking uncomfortable questions or
asking those type of like really vulnerable really?
Exposed questions can be really tough but I think like getting
over that moment of uncomfortable, miss getting over
that moment of like, oh this is going to sound so awkward when I
asked my depress friend, like, how can I support you?
But I think like, you might sound awkward, you might sound
like a camp, counselor. You might sound like a robot,
but I would rather you sound like a robot who's genuinely
trying to help me like during a time when I'm in crisis and I'm
not, okay. Then, like not have you asked
it? Because you're like, that sounds
weird. Oh, yeah, absolutely.
And having those sometimes uncomfortable conversations, you
can think of it as like working out where each one of those is
like a rep. So every time you do that,
you're flexing, the muscle of sometimes, I have to have
uncomfortable conversations and I'll make the next one easier.
I think a lot of good good be done to society.
Ha ha ha because, you know, we live in a society if we it was
more, if people were more used to having those conversations.
I think. I think it does a lot of good.
I think that's totally People sometimes.
But I think it does a lot more harm than good even if it sounds
awkward, you know. Yeah.
So I'd like to we have about five more minutes finish up.
We've we've talked about our experience with depression.
We've talked a bit about how to perhaps support somebody you
love with depression but then there are also a couple things
that I'd like to just say to people who have depression
because maybe one person will internalize it and be able to
say to themselves when they are depressed.
It's hard to remember massive monologues or whole podcast
episodes but perhaps you can say a couple words to yourself when
you're depressed, but one of those things is just yes, this
will pass. I know there's that this too
shall pass thing but it's absolutely true.
I know that when you're depressed, it's impossible to to
imagine that this is going to pass but it always does.
I promise it always does. That's how linear time works.
It will pass. Also you're worthy, you just are
you're worthy of it. Of love.
You're worthy of building. A successful life for yourself.
You just are there's no weird. Omniscient demon.
Keeping score thinking up. No, no this person actually
isn't worthy of the thing. They they didn't donate to the
hungry children thing. The last time they were at
Safeway. That makes them not worthy.
Yes you are. There's nobody out there.
Keeping score determining who is and who is not worthy.
Yes you are. I promise.
Can I do one? Yeah.
Please one of the things that helps me the most night and I
also don't want to give like a grand speech or pretend like I'm
some kind of expert because I'm not but one of the things that I
think is important to remember is that there are moments of
profound Beauty, everywhere. You look, even when you are sad,
even when you are depressed, even when you can feel nothing,
there is so much Beauty in the world.
And I think if you can find those places of beauty and find
those places of Wonder and astonishment at how wonderful
people can be and how good the world can be.
Remembering that Beethoven's Ninth exists, can be really
helpful and it doesn't have to be Beethoven's 9th.
That's like my thing. But it can be, you know, the way
the floor gets warm and the Sun or the way your dog smells or
whatever. Now I'm crying.
Fuck you, end of the podcast. I love you.
Katie Toby to work. Thanks for being here, horse.
Everyone thanks so much for listening to this week's episode
of in a quest. We know that most of the time we
leave you on a lighter note. But this week, particularly
given the subject matter, we wanted to provide some resources
for those who might be struggling.
First and foremost we want to say bluntly and directly that
there is no shame in getting help.
There are many organizations out there that can provide help.
If you are in immediate crisis, you can always reach out to the
crisis, text line, 24 hours a day in the US and Canada.
You can do that by texting 741 741.
And if you're in the UK, you can text eight, five, two, five,
eight. If you are a younger listener,
you could reach out to youth line by texting teen to teen.
That's Tean. Numeral two.
Tean 2839 863. They provide help for people
ages, 11 to 21. If you're a member of the lgbtq+
community, you can contact the Trevor Project by texting start
to six seven, eight, six, seven, eight.
And if you or someone you know is being abused sexually or
Physically, you can contact the rape, abuse and incest national
network at 1-866-376-8255 Isis intervention workers in your
community. While also post a list of
resources crisis centers and numbers to our website, which is
infinite Quest. Podcast.com lastly.
We just want to remind you that, no matter how tough Things Are.
You Are Not Alone from the infinite Quest family.
We just want you to know. You are valid.
You are loved. You are worthy.
The and you are enough. Be kind to yourself this week.
We love you and we'll talk to you soon.
The and you are enough. Be kind to yourself this week.
We love you and we'll talk to you soon.