Hi everyone, it is like 11:00 on Sunday morning.
We were supposed to post on Thursday, an episode about
relationships and ADHD, but you know, what happens, Katie and I
kind of freaked out a little bit, not happened, not happen
with happened. Is that episode did not happen.
Procrastinated. And then it became a huge deal
in our heads. It became our impossible task.
Exactly. And so now we're like, wait a
minute, let's make an episode about what What the hell just
happened? Well, and why it's four days
after the post date and we still haven't done it.
Which, by the way, I of course I don't blame you for it.
It's honorable, it's I mean, it's I think it's important to
talk about like that was actually like why I suggested
this premise as the premise of this episode because I feel like
we spend a lot of time talking about how successful our systems
are and how like we figured out that you like hang your shit on
the wall or you like Mystery been in your in your house or
whatever. But like every so often, I have
this profound moment where I remember that not only do I have
ADHD but it like profoundly affects the way that I interact
with the world and I'm just so frustrated.
I'm so frustrated, I'm so angry. Like we were supposed to we are
supposed to post this on Thursday at 9:00 in the morning.
It is Sunday at 11 a.m. and we're recording.
Hoarding it. Yeah, which means that up
sensibly. Like, I don't believe this
episode is going to be up until at least Monday, like I like to
think that we can like bang this out.
Yeah. But I get I get really
frustrated with myself like all the time.
Yeah. Like for me I the frustration
begets frustration. Yeah.
Because I'm like so mad at myself initially.
Like all right, we were supposed to do and then we're an hour
late, you're supposed to recording an hour ago.
On what on Thursday or whatever day we initially into the record
and then I'm frustrated about that.
So I will now I can't record because I'm really pissed off at
myself and so then I get madder and so on and so on until
eventually it's two days later and at that point it's like all
right it's like an hour, it's like nothing.
It's yes an hour of recording. Like it's an hour sitting out
what you know and what's also please like I love talking to
you. Yeah.
Like I do it all the time and for some reason I've got getting
in my head and that This is this, I'm doable.
Task means like now suddenly I'm like nervous to talk to you
which lays what I do all day every day at school.
I feel like there's like it's the difference the difference of
recording a podcast versus having a conversation.
Yeah. It's because we're just having a
conversation then it's like us, having fun, and like, we're
friends and you're amazing. But when we have to say, okay,
now we're going to define the parameters of having public, so
it makes it so much harder counter to life.
The ADHD Minds. It was like we're going to talk
about this realm of things. Like, I'm constantly butting up
against the edges. Like, oh, that reminds me of a
story about a dinosaur Katie. But it wasn't even the topic,
though. Like, that's, that's the thing.
It's like, it wasn't like we were like, oh no relationships.
What can we possibly have to say that really?
Well, we were prepared. Like we'd both been.
We didn't know. I saw you take a bunch of notes
that it happened to both of us at the same time because usually
I feel like it's been like one of us The other was a sort of
Keepers each other going. Yeah.
But like this week it just like was that perfect like crossover.
It's really useful and I make hand gestures in this audio.
Yeah medium. Yeah, but it's great.
That's making a crossover. Think of like the hand gesture
locking finger. Kind of like a.
Here's the church. Here's the steeple sort of
situation. But yeah, I was like, I don't
know. So that I just got, I don't
know. But I just want to talk about
that, I guess. Yeah.
Well because I think like, We're at what like what I want to do.
I hope this is interesting podcast content when I when I'm
about to say because it's about us.
But what I want to do, what I think we can do is is reveal the
ugly underbelly of it sometimes because I think a lot of hot gas
and a lot of ways it's all like look I have my stuff perfectly
together and here's how you can too.
Yeah. When the fact that is is there's
a lot of pathos is a lot of suffering involved and I think
when we feel alone and that's suffering, it's Detrimental to
our mental health, have a moment because we're suffering, but it
also stops us from moving forward because we think we can
nobody else goes through this. We can't talk to anybody about
it. And so, I mean, so, a big thing
that I always try to do to myself, would always recommend
to other people is just the concept of self-forgiveness or
at least just a self objectivity, like just being
like, all right, I didn't record on the day that I was supposed
to record that I plan on recording.
So what now being mad at yourself Well, for that, and
being frustrated, and being angry and thinking, you know,
you're a piece of shit is ultimately just not useful and
you can't control how you feel like, you know, your feelings
just happened. It's not like you can just say,
I am not going to be mad, but it indulging in that and just look
like in allowing that to be your guide, it gets itself it because
it makes you more Angry Anymore. And so what I try to do and it's
time usually unsuccessfully. So I feel bad giving us advice
like I want some Master of it, but it's story of my life at
this point, but is just trying to not be so mad at yourself and
things like this happen. How do you, how do you?
And I'm genuinely asking because like, this is something that
like, I can't like we were supposed to post on Thursday at
9 a.m. like that, that was like the goal which means that like
hypothetically were recording this On Sunday at 11.
But like we had Wednesday, and Tuesday, and Monday, and Sunday,
and Saturday, really, you know what I mean?
And so like, so, Because I struggle with accountability
right? Because like I know my own
patterns and I know my own self destruct patterns and this is
something that I've talked to you about and I've told you and
I don't mind telling people who are listening, like I am
terrified that all of this is going to go away like I am so.
So because I love this, I love this podcast.
I love getting to do this with you, but I see those patterns in
my own life. All the time is the thing is due
on Thursday at 9 but I say, oh I can do it Thursday at 5 and
nobody mind. Then I was like, oh it's
Thursday at 5:00. I can do it on Friday morning
and then I can do it on Friday and then go, I'm already late.
So I might as well just be. Yeah.
And and then it snowballs into like and then they never made
another podcast episode ever again.
And like, I get so worried about that because it's like, I don't
want to forgive myself and I don't want to be kind to myself
in those moments because I want to hold myself accountable.
And it's like for me accountability.
You is punitive if that makes sense.
Yeah. And it's just like and because
that's what I learned. I learned that being, like,
being held accountable mean to getting in trouble because I'm
always running late. Yeah, I think something that I
think about in a minute, terms of the mental health world is at
some point, there's pragmatically, there's not a
function in being a certain level of frustrated and angry
and I'm a piece of shit about yourself.
Yeah. Like on some level that's not
pragmatic but also completely giving yourself carte blanche to
to procrastinate and not do tasks is also not useful.
Yeah. So there's like this weird
balance that that we have to strike that just as mental
neurodivergent people but just humans in general is it's not
useful to To a certain level of, you know, self pointed tip self
self punishment is not useful, but also complete lack of
accountability is not useful either.
And so, especially like in the mental health world.
I see all the time. Perhaps, you listening, and you
Katie, I was well, a lot of videos basically, saying, you're
fine, it's okay. And I love that sentiment, but
that also gives a lot of people excuses.
What an ADHD World. A girl all the time is how can I
get my friends to be okay with me interrupting them because I
have ADHD. So I'm just going to interrupt
them. Yeah.
And it's something that I try to espouse delicately is, you know,
it's not your fault that it's much more difficult for you to
not interrupt people than somebody with ADHD, that is not
your fault. I'm so I'm sorry, that's not
your fault, but it's still your responsibility to try to not be
rude to other. People.
So, your friends absolutely should understand that.
It's harder for you to not interrupt and so such that
they're more forgiving when you are, but that doesn't mean that
you can just do that all the time.
Similarly, if we're procrastinating in classic ADHD
ways like, oh, I can do it in five minutes, I'll do it after I
was procrastinating. You know what we're doing with
other other small productive tasks, to excuse ourselves for
not doing the big productive, test procrastinate e by the way,
the term for that changed my life.
When I learned that term when procrastinating in a productive
way. Oh, So if we were to just be
like oh well we have ADHD. So we're allowed to do that.
Like that might make us feel like better in the moment but
it's not going to help us produce the podcast.
Yeah. And so there's always this
balance of like forgiveness and acceptance and it's okay, but
also still be a. Well, I still want to be better
because ultimately, I and you want to make this podcast and
want to do the recording and want to create hopefully useful
content for our for all of you listening.
Because As we care about you and we love you and all that.
And so it's not. If the goal is to is to make
your life better, you listener. Your life better, then us
completely giving ourselves. Just well, we have an HD.
Therefore, we don't actually have to do the podcast or do it
on time or do it. That would be doing you a
disservice and, and I don't want to do that.
And so there's as much as self-forgiveness is important
self-accountability is also important.
How does it mean? It's like, I feel like we're
talking a lot about the, the podcast like, There's press this
consent like this thing that we didn't do.
But I'm trying to think of like I want to talk about like how
much this fucking happens. Yeah, you know what I mean?
Because it, I don't know. Like today is just a day where
like, I'm really, really frustrated that my brain and I
and I have that sometimes and like most of the time like I'm
good about being like, okay, well, like can't help it.
I can do my best to do the things that I know will help.
But like to, I'm just like mad. I'm just like angry and I Make
this joke all the time and like whenever I say it is most of the
time a joke, but it's like, do you know that there are people
who just wake up and get shit done.
Like, they're just people who get out of bed and they just
wake up and they're awake. And they just are, like, well
time to clean the refrigerator and they do it and it just
happens. And like the fact that that is a
feeling that I will never have and that is an experience that I
will never experience. It's frustrating.
Yeah. I think it it's there's just
such a profound In fairness to it.
It's an, it isn't fair. It's just like that's, that's
just what it is. I mean, don't blow all, you
know, of course, all people have their problems.
It's not like everybody. There's some people are just, I
mean, yeah, like process of elimination.
There are some people whose lives are the best.
That's just, that's how it work. But, yeah, I think and I mourn
for that, you know, I, I think I really wanted for that, like,
knowing that certain things are just always going to be harder
for me, like it's like, but then you also, Responsibility of
accepting that, you know? Because like I could spend my
whole life fighting that right, but I've actively chosen not to
of actively decided to be like I'm not going to spend every
morning. Lamenting the fact that I don't
want to get out of bed, I'm just going to get out of bed and go
do the thing. What?
Hopefully, but it runs a lot of the conversation.
We had with burritos an idiot. Steve.
Well, yeah, about body neutrality and mental
neutrality. Yeah.
As I think a lot about. So what we were talking about
with with Laura about. So she is a gym owner and so she
spends a lot of time working with people who want to change
their body in some way. And she sort of makes the
argument or if you're if you're if you're starting from a place
of self-hatred, going to a place of self love is a lot of
distance to travel. So she argues well just get to
neutral, just get to. This is my body like whatever.
I like, dude, we're going to say how I feel about it.
This just is what my body is. And I think that translates
wonderfully to mental health where I spend, I don't I was
about to say we, but I spend perhaps you to do a lot of time
and perhaps you listener as well.
Spend a lot of time hating the way.
My brain works resenting the way that my brain works wishing it
were different, but that's not really useful.
I mean it's useful in some information gathered because I
can recognize what I don't like and therefore like recognize
when they're acting up but ultimately feeling that that you
know, Indulging in that anger isn't particularly useful and
then trying to go from that dark place of disliking your brain to
a place of loving it. There's just that's a whole
journey. So trying to get to the center
of his being like, this is the way that my brain is, this just
is the way that it is, which is really hard.
I think feeling some away about something is much easier than
just looking at it being hurt. What actually is this thing.
And it also involves acceptance of things you don't like about
yourself and That's that for me that's the hardest part is
especially coming from like a classical music background,
we're like doing something that seems impossible was just like a
daily thing and you just keep going and keep going until it
wasn't possible anymore accepting that like, oh, I can't
practice my way. That's just what my brain is,
was very difficult. It also makes me think of
something. I think of a lot, not in a
religious way at all, but is the Serenity Prayer.
Grant me the serenity to accept the things.
I cannot change the courage to change the things I can.
In the wisdom, to tell the difference because I think
that's sort of how we operate like we think I think of like,
if you were playing a video game and you appear in this world of
the video game, you need first you'll you know you run around
and you go. I can move this.
I can move that. Oh, I can't go through here.
I can you just sort of poke around and just figure out what
are the rules here? What can I do?
This is going somewhere it like what can I do here?
Those are the things you can't change and you learn that.
There's Things you can do these things.
I can move, I can pick up those things.
Oh, these things that are trying to attack me, I can attack them
back and stop them and it's it would not be useful to try to
change the rules of the game. You try to walk through walls
that you can't walk through. Understanding what can be
changed in. What can't be changed is just
you can get necessary to know to navigate any given situation.
So bell all the way back to Mental mental objectivity, or
mental neutrality, like understanding.
What is unchangeable? I have ADHD like my brain
produces or has less tonic dopamine in there for like that.
All that that's just what it is. What I can change is how I
respond to that is how I manage those symptoms and it's deeply
unfair that we have to but life's not fair.
Yeah. I mean I'm I agree like I'm not
fighting this point but I feel like my struggle is that to take
your analogy and expound on it is that my brain is constantly
playing. In like an open-world format
where there are cheat codes. I just don't know what they are.
So like, some days I can walk through the walls, some days I
can, you know, open the trunk or whatever.
And then some days, I can't. And so I feel like the
open-world rules are always changing based on.
Literally, like, just what you said like like just the dopamine
levels in my brain, the serotonin levels in my brain and
so it's like that's where I get Frustrated.
Because it's like, sometimes it because it was always the same
if I always woke up and I felt exactly the same, I'd be like,
okay cool. I know the rules.
I know the parameters, I know this is what I can and can't do.
I can't walk through the walls, but it's like, some days I wake
up and I'm like, hell, yeah. We're going to the grocery
store, big kid, doing baby, but then there's other days where I
literally can't get out of bed because I am so sad.
And that is so frustrating. It's perfect.
Found Lee frustrating because it's like, I don't, it's the
changeability like that's where that's where I get mad.
And then there's, you know, you've got all the little
workarounds for like every type of day, right?
Because I've had hopefully most of the types of days that I'm
going to have and so like I know when I feel like this I do this
or when I feel like that I do that but it just it's I don't
know, like it's just I that's where I get frustrated.
Yeah, I totally know what you mean.
I think because there's such an Infinity of things that could
possibly happen that could cause us to feel a certain way a
certain time like there's never, no two days are ever exactly the
same. Nothing feel like?
Yeah. Well those are just been like
wow, like can we can we talk about depression?
Yeah let's talk about your past. I mean you say what you want to
say but like I just like I've been struggling with depression
more than eighty HD lately, which sucks because most like
cause ADHD is manageable. I decided just make a list and I
go. Okay.
Today I'm going to power through this list and that is the list
that I have to do and it sucks, but that's what I need to do.
But like depression is just like there's there's no list, there's
no, there's no pain or pay like it's just The what's gonna say
the inky black void. But that just got that was too
upsetting. It's I changed my mind at the
last minute I over thought. But yeah, I mean and that's,
that's the thing is like, it's not, it's just, it's not a lack
of focus, it is a lack of emotion.
Yeah, you know, it's like there's no like ADHD.
I feel like, you know, might prevent you from achieving a
goal or the goal keeps Jing. And it's like uh but yeah for me
with depression it's no out. No set of outcomes is preferable
to any other set of outcomes. Yeah.
Like if I go to the post office then this happens if I don't
then this happens and I do not I don't care which one it is W.
So why would I do anything to try to make any given outcome
happen? There's no goal want anything.
And so it's not even like I failed at those things.
Although, sometimes it does feel away.
It's just like, who cares about anything?
Who cares about what happens? Who cares about the world?
Why Why would I even move from this back?
For me, it's cyclical because it like compounds on itself.
So you've got your sad and you've got this ants, Patrick.
Well, their stance and then because you have this adds a,
you don't do tasks A and B. But then so, then task A and B
are sitting on task C and D the next day.
And then it's a b c and d the next day.
So then you've got EF and, you know, and so it becomes this
like cycle where you're looking at what you haven't done and
what your Trying to get accomplished and there's just
more and there's more and there's more.
And so it's just like you're buried under this like wave of
tiny insignificant like washing the dishes.
Yeah, washing the dishes. Does not take that much time
because what I have learned but it feels absolutely
insurmountable some days and it's and that's so I've
internalized it as it being embarrassing and I know that
it's not, it's not fundamentally embarrassing that I can't do the
dishes. But like I have internalized and
sort of like told myself over and over that it's embarrassing
and I should be ashamed and I'm a fuckup and everybody else in
the whole world, those are dishes all the time, like, why
can't you and so like that learned behavior of of, that
becomes part of that cycle? I think.
Yeah. Like, embarrassment from
yourself. Yeah, it really strange feel.
I'm constantly bear. Oh yeah.
Like, I'm embarrassed all the time.
Bears that like I'm embarrassed right now.
Like I'm literally like sitting here recording this podcast.
Thinking back to five minutes ago and going, oh my God, I
can't believe I said that like I'm preliminary really
embarrassed for every moment of my life trying to get the
embarrassment out, really? I just yeah.
It's like that's what you're saying about things.
You know, not doing any be. Which then is stacked on top of
the c and d and so on so forth. That's I think I think one of
the major places where my depression in my ADHD, just like
combined into this cocktail of, like, you guys.
Let's say so task, a is, do the dishes, but I don't so they pile
up, right? And so, all of a sudden, I
wasn't asked me. Well, now my counter is covered
in trash and dishes. So that's another test.
Task C is, you know, I have to plug in clean out, my whatever.
Who knows? But they just keep piling up.
And now suddenly doing the dishes is I mean but it's not
just doing the dishes. Yeah, it's like sorry sorry.
I was using was pausing because I want to think the word.
Suddenly doing the dishes is what's going to happen is is
preceded by suddenly doing the dishes is preceded by
proceedings afterwards happened before, see that?
Yes, he did something it happens before it, right?
Oh yeah, okay. Suddenly just a Litany of
different tasks precedes doing the dishes.
So, in before you do the dishes, you have to clear off the
counter. Before you clear up the car, you
have to take out put all the trash in the trash can, but you
didn't take the trash out as so that's full it can't fit
anymore. So you have to take the trash
out before you take the thing and then somewhere taking the
trash out. But I was like oh that was my
last trash bag if you get trash bags.
And so suddenly like your add just had ADHD has just all of
this stuff to be ADHD about It's like all like I get to take rest
over and over but it's actually productive because I actually do
have to do all those things. It's in.
It's like a weird. I mean so ADHD does, especially
on diagnosed ADHD. Does baguette comorbidities like
that's true? Apparently.
Yeah, but this like this one's it's so it's not.
It's almost so clever like they're conspiring.
Like the depression is like, hey I'm going to stop him from doing
all these tasks. And then, later once he actually
does, Get out of it. If he gets out of bed, then you
can take the reins and make it impossible for him to action to,
to do any of that massive chain of tasks.
Because you're, it's just endless.
It's like, oh, well, you need to get trash bags off.
I'm gonna get trash bags. Look, I'm also low and dish
soap. They're getting some of those
traits but so on, so on. So on down the line and then you
realize that mountain again and then it's back to depression.
Yep. And then it starts from doing
more things, more things pile up.
One day, you finally, get out of bed.
And you're like, all right, To go.
And then you ready to screws? Let's do all of it at.
Let's do one percent of all of the things and you just and then
he pressed back to bed. That's what it is for me.
I mean, is, well, that's what I was Matthew is, do you do 1% of
all things or do you try to do all the things in one hunt?
Like 100%? Well, I well that's so that
ho-ho-home KV not. Because I think that might be
the difference between you. And I don't think, I think I
think our response is to that are different.
Because I, so something that I have a flood of I've so many
dive soap boxes in my closet on standby for this but just
waiting. But the diagnostic criteria for
ADHD and depression, all of them are things that how they
manifest from the appearance of an observer.
So, to an observer, an ADHD person has trouble focusing
like, no! No, we absolutely do not, we are
Using all the time, just on this thing.
This thing, this thing. And this thing, and this thing,
and this thing until, you know, perhaps read Associated, which
one then we aren't we missing anything.
But all the different diagnostic criteria.
What is that asked re-engagement with a diesel fuel with ADHD?
Have a big trouble with task re-engaging oils?
Do a thing. Then we'll get distracted by
thing. Where a person without ADHD, or
executive dysfunction we go, oh I got distracted.
Okay, back to task a TCP will just keep going down that Chain.
So anyways all baffles me I know right but the the Lost of hold
on. I got it.
I'm leaving all this in because this example of I mean we are
struggled bussing today. I am.
This is a this is a relatable like this is a very special
episode of Impractical. If you have any HD you can see
like hey other people do is to if you don't have any HD hey
this is what it looks like sometimes silly.
We don't I feel like we don't talk about this part.
Like we we spend a lot of time trying to be really like
educational and supportive and productive.
But like I also feel like maybe I don't see it's like important
because that found it feels self-indulgent but like I feel
like it's The acknowledging, the fact that, like sometimes we
both get like this on the same day at the same time, like
fucking sucks, dude. Yeah, fucking said it does.
There's the, like, I think that's something that's not very
well understood from people outside the ADHD community.
And people who do have ADHD, but don't understand like the it
will is the pervasive decision. Yeah.
Is that, it's not just, oh, I care.
It's hard time. Doing the, I have a hard time
doing chores. I've heard time.
Filling out. Paperwork.
Although, of course I do. I'm doing everything I've worked
on, finishing sentences hard time.
Like, remember it like standing up and remember what I'm doing
to you. Well, just, I also want to
finish my. Yeah.
Sorry. Well, we'll just the diagnostic
criteria. So, back to the Soap Box thing.
If I can remember the diagnostic criteria of these of depression
ADHD, all are how they appear on the outside, generally, or there
are written by people who have been watching from the outside,
or on the inside they work in much more Cunning devious and
often unfortunately, well perhaps fortunately profoundly
interesting and interesting ways.
And so for example, Oh oh you were saying Doom 1% the yes.
Alright so you would said that I had said that I do 1% of a bunch
of new things and you said you're trying to 100% of those
things like stolen all the same time which is where differences
so I think for so for me, I'm trying to do everything.
So 100% That I eventually get freaked out and just going like,
you know, when you have so much to do in a day that you just
take a nap instead. Like doesn't solve it.
You just go. Okay, nevermind, I'm just going
to completely shift a minute, so I'll realize that the absolute
optimal way of doing this is to do all this stuff, you know, to
clear off the thing. And then turn and pull this
dishes out of the sink and clean.
The same thing done. And then I have this image of
what the optimal way of doing this is, and that's what I
should be doing and now that I'm aware of that if I'm doing it
any other way than I'm just wrong and lazy.
So I have to do it that way, otherwise I'm just wrong and
lazy and I get so overwhelmed by that that I end up starting to
do that process. And I'm going I'm not going to
do it that well freaking out and then just not doing it.
So I think, I think perhaps, I think perhaps you're more, I
don't, you know, Captain to connote it with anything but
like, perhaps you're more successful in that and that, in
your pursuit of getting to that 100% because I think we both
have that idea of like, alright, we're We're looking for the
perfect process. We're looking for what
Perfection is in this realm and perhaps we respond to that,
you're always. I mean this podcast, the reason
I the past few days like every time it's like okay we're going
to record it be like, well, you know, my mouth is dry and so I
can't do it when I was right because that's not going.
Then I'm gonna have to just gonna have a weird voice.
The Old Timer. Oh well, I just woke up.
So my voice is all. Well I can't do it now.
We got to wait, there's always something and that appears is
procrastination and it's A lot of ways, it totally is
procrastination but in my head, if you were to open up my head
and look and see what, actually what's going on there, it's not
that. I just don't want to do it.
It's that I want to do it and the I have a perfect image of
exactly what I want it to be in my head and if it's not going to
be that then I'm not going to do it.
And so what appears as procrastination from the outside
me making excuses for not doing? It is actually no no I really
want to do it but I Could I would feel bad, I would feel
like I've done the task a disservice if I were to do it
right now, like that's it. So it's sort of the I have so
much respect to the task which also, I mean, perhaps, that's
just what procrastination is? I don't know, I'm alive only
ever been one person. I mean, it's kind of, but I also
feel like there's like that weird dichotomy of, like, I want
to honor the task and I wanted what it is.
Like, it's doing the fucking dishes.
Yeah, it just dishes, just wash the plate, you know.
Yeah. But I mean I guess the question
that I was going to ask is like do you because I know like what
my pattern is like I absolutely I talked about earlier like I
absolutely recognize the like I put it off and then I put it off
and then it just goes away and I like never do the same again.
But like do you do you have those patterns that you see in
your own life? Like when you're like, don't
want to do the thing or when you Are like, doing the thing you
get. So, like, caught up in it.
Are there like specific things and then, if there are part two
of the question from whatever, what are you doing?
How do you, how do you fix it? Like how do you get out of that
cycle or do you? I think there are two like
Realms that occur in like. So if your consider like tasks
were think things that I intend to do phones, you categorize
things that I need to do that. I perhaps don't enjoy doing the
dishes. Chores, that kind of stuff.
And then the other realm is things that I want to do things
like making little models, things like making podcast with
you, things like recording, Christmas albums with you,
spoiler, that's the other ones things that I want to do.
And my patterns with both are different.
So, my parents with chores that I don't want to do, that's when
I go on that digression thing. Yeah.
I want to do it so well like I want to do well so I can feel
proud of myself. Like I hate doing dishes but I
still look at that. Like, that's my duty as a person
to just like suffer, the slings and arrows and shit.
This is very good shape here. Thank you.
And in my sort of sort of like honoring the task when
everything will honoring the art artistic to.
Well, okay, that's this is what it looks like.
So my pattern with Troy, This is that digression in order to come
do this task to completion? I have to do this, preliminary
task. Yeah, in order to do that, task
to the completion to completion, I have to do another preliminary
task and it just goes all the way down until almost every time
II. I will come.
I will have forgotten a certain distance in that chain.
So if you start like, imagine starting at like the top of a
chain and you're adding links to the to the chain, as it's like
hanging, you know, like I'll do the dishes before that have to
clean up the counter. Before I clean off the counter.
I need to change the trash like going All the way down at some
point. I can only remember a certain
height of that chain. I can only remember the previous
three things a given time, so, do you?
So then I then I just genuinely. Don't remember what I was doing.
So, do you reverse engineer tasks like, so rather than start
with like dishes and then notice that you're out of sponges, do
you look at the dishes and look in the sponges and then look at
the, like, do you reverse engineer at every task?
Or are you just like coming up with, like additional tasks in
the moment? Both I think.
Most frequently I'm reverse engineering.
And if that's you mean doing a directly related tasks?
Yeah. Like If You Give a Mouse a
Cookie, right? Right.
Yeah. If you give a mouse a cookie,
he's gonna want milk and if he's gonna want milk, then he's gonna
want this other thing if he's gonna want.
That was a great analogy, thank you.
If you don't read that book, get that photo fun fact, I recently
found out that the mouse is the bad guy in that story.
I was informed of a, I've always thought that the mouse was like
the unsung hero because like I'm not.
Okay, no. I have a And about this.
I have a real Ranch. Hey kiddo.
Okay, okay. Okay.
Okay.
This is going some. Okay.
Cool. As long as you remember, we went
whatever. The what the hell we were
together? We were talking about reverse
engineering paths but I have a theory about If You Give a Mouse
a Cookie as it relates to ADHD because I have always read If
You Give a Mouse a Cookie about the the importance of persisting
through a task. Hey, so what is what is the plot
of a figure than the plot of If You Give a Mouse, a Cookie is,
there is a mouse who wants a cookie and he, but like, but he
understands that there's more to just getting the cookie is like,
you have to get milk and then you have to have a napkin and
then you have to have a plate. Whatever.
Because like to me, it is literally a book about executive
dysfunction. Yeah, that is what I've always
thought if you like I thought it was an example of executive
dysfunction in. Like if Katie goes to take a
shower, then she needs to find her hair brush, but if she needs
to find her hairbrush, then she also has to like, empty the
Trash. And like I always thought that
book was about fucking the experience that I was having and
then like Chris was like, no, that's not what them about.
I was like, what and who is he to say shocked what the book is
about and but then I asked a whole bunch of people.
I was like, so the mouse and and and they're like, oh yeah, fuck
that bass. And I was like, I know but I'm
the mouse. Well, the whole idea is that the
mouse is getting something from somebody else.
Yeah, they're not doing those, they're not making a cookie for
themselves. And going like, oh, I'm getting
then doing all those things, they're making somebody else do
it. Yeah.
I don't like, I guess like, I don't know.
I was a kid, maybe. But like, I always saw myself in
the mouse and then I was shocked to learn.
What's really see myself in the mouth said that cause I was just
like, oh, it's like me, it's what I go to do the dishes.
When I go to take a shower like there's 47 extra Kelly gets
anyway. So now that's very valid and it
gets really really heat up about it, man.
Well, I think so when it comes to chores it's a dyke.
One of related tasks. Yeah.
And which is made worse by my failure to do those tasks in the
past, take out the trash and whatnot.
Because if my trash was already taken out, then that's something
that would. If I had just had enough soaked.
If I will, we forget to take the garbage out so you can take the
garbage out. Yeah.
Oh my God. That is like, that is, I think I
don't get any more mad at myself, so sometimes my trash
targets. So high Sauron starts to get a
little jealous. Terrible joke and you should
feel bad. But so that, and, and that
point, like, and this is one of those things where, like sort
of, there's like a forgiveness. But also accountability thing
we're like, I, if I cleaned took out the trash regularly and sort
of took note in my soap, is low and had a list of like, oh, get
dish soap, with the store because I'm low.
If although, if I had been doing all those things and doing the
dishes is a very easy task and it's in it's an isolated task.
Because all those other ducks are In a row and see, just go,
you put a video and you throw them in the thing.
So, in terms of combating ADHD facilitating that mise en Place
baby. I mean, it so amazing.
Plus, if I've gone rents Katie's hear this all the time but you
perhaps haven't Meson plus is a culinary term.
I'm a cook. Professionally is a culinary
term. It's French for put to put in
place. And so in a kitchen, if I'm
going to make you an Went in like in a kitchen setting, a
professional kitchen setting. I'm not whisking the eggs right
then I'm not dicing the onions, right?
Then I'm not doing all the stuff, grating the cheese,
right? Then all that stuff.
I've prepped out and done earlier and I have them in front
of me. I have grated cheese.
Right. Like it, within Arm's Reach, I
have eggs with an arm reaches all that, so that when you say,
hey can you make me an omelet? I am 95% done with the omelet
already and I just have To make it happen in finish it.
So that concept of mise en. Plus basically you're
facilitating tasks in the future mise en place is the process of
doing little steps earlier such to facilitate a future tasks as
or is how I understand it and so things like having your trash
capable of receiving more trash that's amazing.
Plus having your counters clear, he's on plus having dish soap,
knees, and plus. And those things are insanely
hard to do for a person with ADHD.
I know this because I Do it professionally and I've been
doing it for almost a decade and I still like, suck at it
compared to people who would like.
It's it doesn't occur to me to do that.
So trying to to get those things in your life and don't think of
it, taking out the trash as being like, oh this is a chore
that I have to do live trash like is my master now and I have
to take the trash out, think of it.
As I'm later on I'm I'm facilitating me being able to
put more trash. I'm doing a favor to that future
person rather than just being like oh, right now, I have to
take out the trash. I think it is.
No, I'm creating the space that I'm deserving of being in a
facilitates, the ease of my mental health mates, I guess.
Can I tell you a weird thing that I've never told you before,
but I feel inspired as moment. Please please please please,
every single time you bring up mise-en-place, plus, plus
whatever. He's on pause music Applause.
Yes, every time you bring it up, I get physically angry.
I'm not I'm not joking. Like, there's something about
the idea of mise en place that somewhere deep in my brain makes
me so upset, and I don't know why, but it's like every time,
like, it doesn't matter. And I like, and I like, watch
you, like, I know you, like, we are friends.
Like, I watch you do like these on Place stuff, like, all the
time. And I'm like, yeah.
Clearly works. Like, it's great.
And I'm happy, like, whatever. And then you're like, well, you
know what you should do and I'm like, fuck that.
Fuck that shit. Fuck you, like, I get so angry.
Do you think it's do? You think?
It's because, and I'm not, I'm honestly asking, oh no, I'm I'm
unpacking this right now with you in real time.
So side-by-side. And you think, do you think it's
because your rational brain acknowledges that?
That's good. That's a correct way of doing
it. Like, that's good.
But your executive dysfunction and the irrational parts of your
brain, make it incredibly hard for you to do that.
So historically you haven't been good in it at it but you do
acknowledge that it is a good way of doing things and so
you're frustrated with your. So that's like that's I don't
mean to project but that's how like it was weird because like
I'm like I'm literally thinking about it.
I think it's, I think it's a little bit of that like I think
it's in my mind. It makes a lot of sense like
that would be like I understand that that would be like a very
practical way of doing stuff. But I also I think for me, The
bigger part of it is that I hate admitting that I need help.
I hate admitting that. I can't get out of bed some
days. I hate admitting that there are
like special stupid accommodations and things that I
need. Because like, I have
internalized, this idea. And I have absolutely convinced
myself that like I have to be okay.
I have to be okay, 100% of the time I could never admit fault,
I could never. Admit weakness and having to
like, mise-en-place my apartment, or my wife or
whatever is absolutely admitting that.
I can't do it on my own and I like, and I hate that.
I hate that so much and it's just it's internalized ableism.
Like I'm not pretending like it's okay I'm not pretending
like that's a healthy idea but I think oh we're getting.
So like traumatic real quick, but like I think what it came
Down to or comes down to is the fact that like no one ever
believes me, no one ever believed that there was anything
wrong. No one ever noticed that there
was anything wrong but there was there was always several things
wrong and so I always had to be fine.
I always had to be okay, I wasn't allowed to not be and so
I had to build these structures and I had to build these systems
that not only worked for me but gave the appearance of being
normal and Being okay? And mise-en-place saying is an
admission that things might not look normal on the surface, like
on the surface level to, like, come into my house, my house
does not in my mind, look like the house of a normal person.
Because it is, what about, you know, their pile Boxes by the
front door or whatever. You know.
And I think like that has a lot to do with it.
As I think that I just Every time I have to do something,
every time I have to use a system, it is admitting that I'm
not. Okay?
And that makes me angry at myself and that comes back to
bring neutrality. Yeah, let's just say that's
really. Yeah, I think that that's really
interesting. Because yeah, then cut that and
all this stuttering out. But I think it's a lot about
accepting things that you can't change.
Like, in your, I mean, you go get you like, you can't control
your feelings. It's not like, like Katie.
You're wrong for feeling bad about that.
You should stop it. Yeah.
Like you because you can't just do that but acknowledge it but
trying to get to that. Yeah, that point of just like,
what, what what it, what is it, what is the thing, what is this
brain of mine that I've been given?
How does it work? And what can I do?
And I think like, so, I mean, of course, you're in everybody's
emotions, are valid. But from my frankly literal
perspective, like if I were to see you, do some mise-en-place
thing, like putting coffee in the coffee maker and filling it
up the day before. So that when you wake up you
just click the thing. That makes it, which is by the
way prime plus I wouldn't think. Oh wow, you're so So I don't
know week or whatever that you have to do this thing to make it
so it's like you're so bad at mornings.
I magic that maybe like you're so bad at mornings.
Yeah that you have to prep it all out the night before because
you just you just suck. So bad at doing mornings.
I wouldn't think that at all. I don't think anybody would.
I think they'll be like, that's really smart.
That's a really good idea. And so whip with them invent, of
course, the that's that doesn't help.
In terms of like what's going on in your own.
Right. That's why I think it's billion
when you said embarrassed in front of yourself because that's
such a profoundly detrimental and strange thing that is all
that's that's one of the hardest things for me to recognize
myself doing is what I'm embarrassed in front of myself
because like, well, like making tick-tocks, for example, like if
I'm doing it in public, you know, I'm holding up my phone.
You watch me do this earlier today?
I'm only at my phone, like, even if nobody's watching me, I'm
sort of weirdly embarrassed like I'm like look at me holding up
my phone. I look like a you know I look
like I should be on a loading screen on GTA 5 which is a joke
for three people but nobody's like I don't I would argue that
what I'm doing is fine, I would argue that anybody doing.
This is fun, there's nothing wrong with what I'm doing, but
for some reason, I've so internalized it, I get
embarrassed. And I it is taken me until like
yesterday or this morning to notice that.
And so I think that like the The, the Judgment that comes
from our own brains. I hope I have that with.
This is really oddly specific, but I have that with exercise
videos, really. I can't like, like, we're
driving like yoga or like, whatever, like on YouTube I
cannot do them. I like, I like it is the
weirdest shit ever. But like, I can't like, it
doesn't matter. Like, I can be home, completely
alone. The shades drawn, the curtains
closed. What I cannot do.
Sighs videos because I'm I'm too embarrassed, huh?
I'm too embarrassed of it. Like I and it's like this weird
thing because like I like I really like yoga like I used to
do yoga like a lot and that I was like, oh, I can just do like
videos at home. I was like the shame of it or
like it's the weirdest shit, dude.
Oh my gosh. I get that way.
Katie and the world with reading, that's why I don't
read. Really I don't for one I've ever
forever to, I very rarely read books, I reference books pretty
frequently but I very rarely just like open a buddy down and
read and I honestly would have to unpack for a while.
Why? But I sort of get the feeling of
like, you know, have you ever been in like in a position like
you're a kid and, you know, some in your you look at your room or
like when you're a kid, if you had a roommate, when you're
gonna put its let's let's say you're a kid.
Now, you have a room, you look at your room, it's dirty.
And you think, you know, this is my room like I'm going to I'm
going to clean it because I want to and I want to like my space
to be nice or whatever like you decide right to clean your room.
Right. And then right, then when your
parents or somebody yells up like hey, Eric clean your room
and also you're Fuck you. I'm not cleaning my room.
Get out of here. How dare you?
That's how I feel about reading books is, I've been told for one
reading is extremely hard for me.
It's one of the worst parts of ADHD is is reading is extremely
hard for me. Like, I just not dyslexia like I
can read the word. Yes.
But just it's so my whole like life, it's like doing.
The reading is always been something that somebody has had
to tell me to do, even though I really like Fucking love reading
and I love Lou ideas that like I love all everybody it's just
hard so it's always been somebody telling me to do it and
so now when I do it because I just want to, I just imagine,
you know, Miss Rose in the swag, you know, my seventh grade,
whatever teacher like being like.
Good job Eric. Yes you do.
Yes, hahaha. Like she was like, she won
because now I'm reading and so, I feel embarrassed.
I feel dorky, I feel like I'm I'm giving in to the will of all
those people who made me sad for so much time.
And so, that's really a huge reason why I don't read his
because I can't, I just feel they're like, applause and I'm
like, like my child self is like how dare you do what they say or
act. Like you're beat, you know,
you've seen Fight Club like ice off my club at that exact moment
in my life when that started to happen.
But I didn't know it's, I don't know what to even say about
that. But hook a number of tasks are
At like doing dishes, like, I feel like that's letting the
work win. This is what somebody would tell
you to do and you're letting that hypothetical person win and
so by not doing the dishes and not, you know, taking care of
myself. I'm sort of sticking it to this
nobody created and I think that's kind of where the
embarrassment from the cell physicists that those voices in
my head, I don't know. That makes sense.
I do have some important news. What's that?
Our producer Brian has just informed me that our breakfast
is Iraq. Oh my gosh, I really want really
want breakfast. That's really, this is really
good podcast content with there's a waffle know.
There's waffles up front, there's waffle well.
Okay everybody, thank you so much for hanging out with us
during this episode. We're sorry that we're late but
we figured we might as well just to give make this episode a
glimpse into What? I don't want to say failure.
I want to qualify it as like failure but like you know we're
people to and and you know sometimes we'll talk about ways
to make your ADHD better and help yourself and sometimes
we're just going to show you examples of what it can be
because I think that's important.
I think it's important. I think it's it would be
absolutely disingenuous for us to pretend like we always have
our shit together because we don't and I think that's part of
it. Like I think that if like Listen
to me is really important and advocacy is really important,
but I think to be a good Advocate and a good educator,
you have to be realistic and like ADHD is not all fucking
squirrels and superpowers and rainbows.
It's a lot of sitting around being angry at yourself because
you were supposed to drop a podcast four days ago.
And you're just now getting around to it.
I mean, I think your waffle gets cold on the front steps.
Oh gosh, because we forgot about the breakfast.
Yeah, we did. Oh my gosh.
Anyways, everybody be kind to yourself, please be lovely to
yourself, you deserve, happiness and love and all that stuff.
And I promise if you promise that I'll try to do the same
Katie you went on that. Sure.
All right, cool. We're In It Together.
I just thought of High School Musical, We're All in This
Together. My buddy whooping, cheers, he
looked with my other guy. He's a basketball player, I do
it. It's at the gym Zac Efron.