Hi everybody. It's me.
Katie a source. Oh, hi.
Hello, it's me. Hey goon I will, what's welcome
back to infinite Quest, but like a real episode.
Thank you, everybody for being so patient with us.
We got sick. First me and then Kate, but you
already know that if you've been listening to those little inner
things we've been posting last week's we're fine.
So it's if you will minisodes it was not covid.
We're feeling much. Much better now, Our voices are
back kind. Well, yeah.
Kind of time. We're gonna see how this goes.
But thank you to everybody who's been coming to the intermittent
twist rooms. We've been doing while we've
been getting better and thank you for everybody who let us
know that you took the time to look us up on the twitch leak
those. Oh yeah.
It was weird of you. Oh no.
What A Strange Day. Yeah, that is weird.
I mean just all of twitch. All of twitch, all of it just
the entire thing, golly. Yeah, it was weird hearing like
the the newsy videos about just like somebody hacked, all of
twitch. This is the whole thing.
The whole thing, everything that has ever happened on Twitch is
now Banana. Probably confirm it.
I am I don't like I'm in such a weird head space in terms of
finding out how much some streamers make.
Yeah, dude, it's like I'm both riddled with jealousy and I'm
like, a little angry but also like why am I Mad.
Like it's just I'm like in such like a weird place about it but
what is strange? I mean when you look at like the
top streamers and I'm in there are streamers who were like
whole companies, you know, like, you know, it's the account of an
entire media production company. Yeah.
The notion was, who's just like a person.
And when you look at some of those people, they have like
70,000 people in their lives in the content.
Like, that's a stadium of people.
Like they're essentially performing like at the Super
Bowl every day just like wow. One guy, I was like, oh my God,
he makes like three hundred thousand dollars a month and
then I looked it up and like, oh, because he is 20 million
followers like okay, that makes sense.
So I'm like, I'm over here feeling, I'm hot shit with my
like, 4,000. Like okay cool.
Speaking of twitch, so shout out to tsuki.
No one of our most common twitch twitch.
Oh jeez, he's one of yours. No, no, no, I thought that.
Oh well, never mind either way, just a wonderful Christmas.
Cool anyway. It's participant.
They suggested this week's topic is they asked a wonderful
question, how do you help someone with ADHD develop a
system? Now, I'm panicking because I'm
like, wait, what? If Sookie know is a modern I
forgot. I think I think there are a lot
on your disk or yeah, you're not on Twitter.
Untouched rare ain't nobody got time for that except for Moon
and who are the best who apparently have disliked?
Look at is that I want to say, like apparently they have all
this time on that because I know they're working while they're
doing it. Moon.
And an is also a pseudonym as asthma.
Yeah, they're fake name. Fake names will take names, but
so how do you help a person with ADHD develop a system?
And I also kind of want to broaden that to like, how do you
help a person? Develops isn't like, obviously,
I'll I'll I think we probably will end up talking mostly about
like, how do you help an ADHD person.
But this is an 18 cannot because this is an ADHD podcast.
But ultimately I think that's a wonderful question because I
don't know it was something that's always been very clear to
me especially like in The Culinary world.
Is, if you have a system, that's not performing the way that you
needed to. Like if you're making a chicken
breast and during dinner service or something like that in your
system for doing that, you're firing, procedure is not
working. It's not getting up on time or
it's cooking it wrong. Whatever there are always two
options and it's a judgment call.
Every time is its do I get better at the current system?
Or do I change the system? Like, do I alter how I'm doing
this? Or do I just get better at what?
I'm already? You doing, and it's a constant
struggle and I find that struggle all the time in my real
life. If a system of, you know, doing
my dishes or doing my laundry or paying my bills, like if the
system if I'm you know, if I'm having trouble paying my bills
if I'm late paying my bills do I just need to do what I'm already
doing, but just get better at it or do I change and in my
experience, like my ADHD brain, my ADHD prospecting brain which
is really good and really likes just coming up with many
different ways of doing things. All frequently, think of New and
different ways to do it which is often a decent answer to do to
try to develop a new system. But also sometimes the answer is
to get better at the system you already have.
And so when helping another person, develop a system, a lot
of the times you know you have to work with them like alright.
Well what are you currently doing and why isn't it working?
She do we need to work with you to help you.
Get better at the system that already exists.
If there is one or do we help you develop a new one and that
can be very hard because PhD, folks.
Love coming up with ways to organize stuff and ways to do
things. It's like a hobby at this point
but then picking one and sticking to it and becoming
competent at. It is very difficult, very
difficult. Yeah.
And I mean I think some of it too is like I mean I think we're
probably going to talk more about systems like later in the
episode. One of the things that I think
is Interesting. Is that it's the problem of my
TV, won't turn on I've ever used this metaphor with you before, I
don't think so. So if you go downstairs and you
settle in on the couch and you grab the remote, your TV won't
turn on. You're like fuck my TV won't
turn on, but it's like, okay. Well now we have to break down.
That problem is the remote out of batteries is it's not
distracting at all. I'm just turning up you old
gaining a little bit. So okay.
It's like okay my maybe my remote is out of batteries or
maybe the power cable to the television got moved when I
vacuumed or maybe the, I don't know, like, the like power
strip. That the TV is plugged into
short, it out in the storm or maybe the remote component has
gone bad, or maybe the receiver component is gone bad, or maybe
the DVDs in front of the television, when people still
use DVDs are you know like blocking the sensor like there's
so many different reasons. Why your TV might not turn on?
And so I think that is really good sort of metaphor for
getting at the heart of why a system isn't working.
It's because sometimes it's something.
Simple. It's something like, oh my, my
remote is out of batteries, but sometimes it's something much
more complex. It requires a lot more like work
and like getting to the bottom to it especially bottom of it.
Especially if it's something that has to do with like
executive dysfunction, or like a very specific issue, that you
personally struggle with because some kind of something is
triggering or upsetting or something like that.
And I think that a lot of As we just look and we say oh well
it's easy. You just put a basket by the
door and put your keys in it and then you'll never lose your keys
again and it's like no sometimes it's a remote battery but
sometimes it's like you got to take apart the entire television
to figure out what's wrong. Yeah.
Totally. What, what do you think, like,
analogously, if you were to like, so let's say, the problem
is, I keep losing my keys. What analogously like would be,
well, could be any number of things like that and I think
that's that's things like Why it's like okay is it?
Because you have gotten in the habit of putting your keys just
sort of like willy nilly when you walk in the house.
Okay. Well like, let's go back to
that. Like how do you get into the
house? Do you come in the front door?
Do you come in through the garage?
Like what furniture is about, like, what is the structure of
your house? But then also, like, what is,
how do you feel when you come home?
Like, are you immediately like overwhelmed and you're like,
fuck. My house is so dirty and you
just throw your thing on the floor.
Do you already have a set place? You know, but you know, but then
sometimes it's other thing it's like, okay.
Well, is it because you know, I have five kids and I'm super
stressed out and so like the minute that I get in the door,
I'm like dealing with that. Well, that's, that's different.
That's a, that's a different fix than the basket that may be
negotiating. Like, okay, I need five minutes
when I come in to like sit down and like get my shit together
and like you know, I mean like there's I don't know what I'm
talking about. No I think no I think that's a
very good point because I think, you know, in terms Of helping
another person, develop a system, or find a system.
That's something that you can do to help them, is to take them
through that process and ask them like, okay, you get home
from work or the store or the whatever you get home.
What do you feel as you open the door?
What, what is, what is the thought process that it occurs?
What do you see? What do you look at?
Like what is, what are you sense?
What is your sensory input right now?
Because I think when it's just you it's hard to do that.
Sometimes it's hard to A sort of look back objectively of like
how do I feel when I get out of the shower like that.
Like a wolf. The, for example, I brought this
up a million times with the pajama principal was trying to
figure out why I hate getting out of bed so much getting out
of bed socks just in general but I feel like for me I was having
a really hard time with it at a certain point in my life and I
realized it was because I was cold when I got out of bed I was
cold and I was avoiding being cold and so I was like Mom I
should wear a specific set of clothes to sleep.
So that, when I wake up, I'm already wearing nice cozy
clothes and I was like oh those are pajamas.
I'm just offended pajamas. Now I have a profound
appreciation for pajamas that I didn't before, but either way,
doing that process of like figuring out like, okay, put
myself in the mindset of I'm lying in bed and I just am dead
not getting out of bed and I'm not having it.
Why I like trying to get into that mindset and that took me
years to like notice that that was the problem for me was that
the phenomenon of being cold when you get out of bed and I
think perhaps if somebody else had Said like okay, Eric well
let's let's let's go back. How do you feel when you can't
go to bed? So similarly I think in helping
somebody develop a system like walk them through piece by
piece, what the process is, whatever it is, you know, in the
case of like, you know, you always lose your keys, you get
home, you have your keys in your hand, you just unlock the door.
What happens that for me, it's often like I'm holding a bunch
of things and I don't want to be holding them anymore, like
that's a very fundamental thing. For me is like how many things
I'm In my hands at any given time is because I like like my
hands and I like being able to like grab stuff and manipulate
stuff and if I'm holding a bunch of stuff, they can't do that.
So if I'm holding something that I don't need to be holding my
brain, just goes drop it just put it somewhere and that's how
I lose things. And so for me with losing my
keys, it's like okay I've practiced just being like keys
in front left pocket like that's always where they are.
It's not perfect because you know you watch pants, sometimes
you lose your keys, whatever. A key hook is probably maybe a
better strategy for me. Um, but either way, like
committing to that, as being like, okay, that is where my
pocket, my reply, my keys live to the point where, like, if my
keys are in my pocket, I can feel that like the sensation of
wearing my pants feels different.
But anyways, I think helping a person like inhabit, important
moments, during whatever it is. They're trying to do whether
it's doing their laundry or paying your bills, like inhabit,
those moments and like sit in that moment ago, what am I
really feeling right now? What is scaring me about this?
What is Is overwhelming about this and working with them in a
very rational way to think. Okay, well every time you sit
down to pay your bills you freaked out that you might not
remember your passwords, you know, like like that's a huge
thing for me so it's like, okay well then we'll write down your
passwords and we'll try to solve that issue.
So I think that's a really helpful thing you can do is
something to which? I think it's really good point,
you made. Yeah.
And I think the thing though, that is important to keep in
mind with that conversation, is that depending on the issue
sometimes the problem is that There's there's some unknown
component and like that's that's really important to stress in
helping somebody else build a system because like all tell
this story. So you I mean you're over at my
house all the time, so you know this, but a lot of people might
not know this, like, I'm an extremely messy person, like I'm
extremely messy. My house is covered in clutter,
I have a lot of stuff. I have a lot of clothes and
like, frankly it's gotten really a hand and It's gotten to the
point where like I have a very livable space and like
cleanliness and turned like the kitchen is like important to me,
but like there's a lot of shit and there's a lot of clutter.
And it doesn't help that like Chris collects, like magic, the
Gathering cards, and comic books, and that kind of thing.
Until like, we just have a lot of stuff.
So, I made the decision that I'm hiring professional organizer to
come in and just like help, because I'm just exhausted of
trying to do it on my own, but we started the process.
And she's coming on Friday to do a consult but like in like our
our first conversation, she said well like where does the Clutter
come from? And I was like, I don't fucking
know, it just appears but I'm like but that's not true.
You know what I mean? Like that.
Like that's not magic fairies or bringing bullshit to my house
but it's like just looking at like the desk like right here in
front of us. Like I can't stop staring at it
because it's just covered in fucking clutter but it's like,
okay, well, I have my meds because if I don't put my Meds
where I can see him that I'm going to forget to take them and
I've got in the habit of taking them during my twitch stream,
and then it's like, oh, I've got this chord because like, I
needed that cord for thing. So, then I said the core down,
and then I've got the, you know, the measuring tape because I was
measuring you for the Captain America costume, like, all of
this stuff, kind of like amalgamates, but it's like, I
don't have a conscious understanding of that moment.
It's all I know. And like, literally it it sounds
so silly to say, but like the table is either clean or it is
Clean. There is no moment of like oh I
put a thing on the table, like it begins again, it's just it
happened, it just happens. And a lot of that has to do with
my ADHD and how it manifests in terms of like if I'm not
absolutely focused on where I'm putting the thing, I'm just
going to put the thing on the closest surface, and go about my
day, which is why there's just bullshit everywhere, because
I'll be carrying the thing and then I'll move on to the next
project. And so, I think going into
creating systems with the understanding that sometimes you
need an outside perspective, sometimes you have to ask for
help. Sometimes there are unknowns
that you may not recognize in yourself, but like, I hire the
organizer and the first thing she said she was like, oh well,
okay so if I get stuff just keeps appearing.
Like maybe what we need to do is like look at the stuff that you
use most often and most frequently and figure out places
and systems for that. I want all that make sense?
But you know what I mean? Like, it's that kind of thing
where it's like If you can't identify the issue sometimes
just talking through it with a friend or something like that
can be or hiring a professional that can be really useful
because you're going to have to, like, examine those gaps.
And if you don't have an answer that in and of itself is in a
way, at least, a partial answer to like okay.
Well then, what do we need to do to find the answer and go from
here? That make any sense at all
totally? Yeah, I think sort of Being too
close to an issue can make it really hard to steal clouds.
I drink my coffee and I'm sorry. Well, have you ever heard the
parable analogy story? I don't know, of a blind men,
feeling an elephant. It's the story of a button, you
know. They're it's like 12 Blind Men
and they're all standing around an elephant and one of them is
touching its leg and one of them is searching its trunk.
No. One of them can see the whole
thing, but if they talk to each other in the club, they can then
put together the entire elephant.
And I think that It is a lot of the time sort of how I think a
lot of us feel us as ADHD folks is, we can see the parts of the
issue. Like we can see when the table
is clean and we can see when it is fucking covered in shit.
But we can't see the individual moments that that that build up
to that like for me, my biggest one.
In you, for sure know this Kitty is my kitchen.
I am awful with my kitchen because I struggle with just
eating in general. And so for me hunger is Like, as
much as I would say ironic. I love cooking so much but when
it comes to my own hunger that's just like a problem.
I need to solve. Like if I'm hungry I just need
to not be hungry. Like I need to get to not being
hungry. If I'm eating.
What I just remember. We have the first hellofresh.
Oh yeah. We do.
Hello. Fresh sponsor us.
Yeah. Hello fresh on Zara's.
It looks great. I'm really excited for super
high. A little pencil mustache on it.
But so for me, like, if I'm eating, if I'm in my kitchen,
like feeding myself, like my I'm in, I'm in problem-solving mode,
I'm like Hungry and I need not be hungry and eating for me has
historically been difficult sometimes and so things like
cleaning up after myself in my own kitchen and whatnot, it just
doesn't, it's not there, like I don't decide not to do it, I
guess, I mean, on some level I must because like you said,
like, fairies aren't bringing things to your house like, at
some point something is happening.
But the, the period of time where I don't do the dish or I
don't throw away the thing. The period of time when I would
do is just blank like I have no memory of, you know, you know
sometimes when like you're you know, in one room in your house
and you walk to another room in your house and you like, I don't
remember walking over here well like, yeah.
I know it happened but like I don't have a log of that like,
that's weird. It's kind of like that.
And I think that's something that I'm vote.
Another person can really help you do either by being with you
when it happens if you spent a lot of time with the person but
if it's somebody like I can Ultimate, or something like that
or just a friend, you're asking for help from having them sort
of, like, guided meditation you through, like, okay, you're
making food, you're putting together a sandwich.
You just finished your sandwich. What?
Next, for me, for example, when I make a sandwich always, like
other breads, gonna get soggy because I hate soggy Briggs red
sandwiches. And so, when I make a sandwich,
I ate a lot of sandwiches, by the way, is a very good solution
to hunger, just keeping sandwich different.
I'm always like it was, so I got to eat this right now.
So I'll clean up after, like I don't really Eli's, that's what
I'm doing but I do. There's the urgency about it.
Oh my God, so I do that. But by the time I finish eating
a sandwich like I am. That is to base 10 years later
might as well be, you know? So having a person like I mean,
I we talk about the stuff professionally so I like and I
do that with myself now. I mean it doesn't solve all the
problems. I still have a really hard time,
keeping my kitchen clean, but having somebody else sit with
you and go, okay, like bring me through the process of you in
your kitchen because although You know, we just clean my
kitchen, you know, a week ago, something like that, it was like
spotless and now it's already starting to like, get not good.
Like I lost my lost it. I just really thought.
Oh, although we don't always, we're not always aware of those
little, you know, little straws that eventually will break the
camel's back. Those things literally must be
happening. Like, they have to be like,
again, like you said, fairies are bringing.
So having another person walk you through this, guided
meditation of, that can can be really helpful, but it can also
be very frustrating. Yeah, and very vulnerable.
Yeah, it's hard. It's hard.
Especially if Like in mind you know I'll use myself as an
example. Like if you don't know what the
problem is because like honestly like for as much as like and
it's so funny like admitting that but I think it's important
to be like, I don't know everything and it's fine but
it's like when like I don't know why it happens because like it
like there. And I try really hard to like
not judge myself and just sort of like like, you know, morally
neutral issei. I just I really struggle with
clutter but it's like it's one of those things was like, I
don't know why it happens and I don't know how it happens, but I
know that it does happen. And so like for me that's really
frustrating because it's like if you walk me through and you're
like, okay, well, how does it happen?
I got, I don't know, like it just happens like the table is
clean and then I sat down to things and then it's dirty
again, you know. And so I think that then becomes
How do I say this in a way that's going to make sense?
I think that there has to be either like hiring a
professional who is trained to have those conversations or if
you're the person supporting the person, you know, if your the
supporter then understanding that it is vulnerable and there
might be like a lot of frustration and they're like
might be a lot of head-butting, you know?
But if you are, the support, T also understanding like there's
not any shame in Knowing, but it's really frustrating to
suddenly like feel like you're making progress and then hit a
brick wall of like, but I don't actually know why this is going
on. And I think that is, at least
for my own experience. Like that's one of the big, I
think major causes of tension, like, when I was growing up was
because like, my mom's version of clean was very different than
my version. And so, because my mom was never
willing to budge or adapt or communicate in terms of like,
well, why is your room this way? Why do you do these things this
way? Like, what is your thought
process? Here, it was always just like
you're doing it wrong and you're doing it badly.
And so I think that, you know, like zucchini nose has
specifically asked us about their kid, like, how do I
support my kid in creating systems?
And so like, I think that's like a really important thing to
stress is that, like, if you, if you don't understand, it doesn't
mean that they are wrong and you are right.
It just means that there's, like, a communication breakdown
or like clarification needs to happen.
Oh yeah, totally. I mean, I think I feel in my
head, I feel like at a Crossroads where, like, they're
two things that related to that, don't want to talk about.
I'm going to pick. Tell me the rate on the other
one, so you don't forget, no, because I didn't think my for
like days, but one I think specifically, I, in terms of,
like, helping children either like, you know your child, you
know, a child's brain is still taking shape the way that they
think about things is still taking shape.
I mean, you know, we never it never officially takes shape or
always changing throughout our lives.
But, you know, when we're kids, it's happening really fast and
when tsuki no ask us that question.
During minor Meyer your stream. I remember which one I
suggested. So if you know, if their child
has ADHD, which I'm not going to reveal, this is their kid.
But I when I was a kid, I really like thinking about many
different ways of doing things I still do, but that's been a part
of my life for a long time. Like I would often what, you
know, I would do the chore. Because, you know, my parents
would make me do my chores, you know, but I would never really
do it in the same way twice. I would always alter something
about it partially just because I like value efficiency and
whatnot and like, I like, but a lot of the times just, just
looking back. It was just for the newness of
it, like doing the same thing, it's just was boring.
So oftentimes any chef I've ever worked for knows this about me,
oftentimes I'll get it right. Right?
I like find a system that works for doing something but then
just because it's boring to do it the same way every time.
I'll just keep changing it, even though I already hit the nail on
the head and that has been with me for a very long time.
And so I think with, with a parent with their child, I think
it would perhaps be very useful to try to systematically, you
know, go through with your child, how to clean the thing
that you're the room that you're cleaning or how to, you know,
whatever your child's towards how to take out the trash?
And talk to them about why they're doing it the way that
they do it and like a firm that, you know, maybe that but again,
like accepting that the way that they do, it might be a little
different than the way that you do it.
But if they're getting, you know, the the result, you know,
then that's fine. But affirming with them, like,
oh, I see you're doing it this way.
Why are you doing it this way? And they say, oh, because this
that and the other thing like cool, just to try to give This,
the the system that works sort of just more mental weight
because again, for me growing up is I would just forget that
quote unquote, good system, also side note in a lot of cases, it
is perfectly fine to do things, different ways.
Every you don't have to do things the same.
ER, sometimes it's really good to have a very consistent way of
doing things, but sometimes not so much sometimes, it's okay.
To just do things willy-nilly like, with dishes.
For me, I have To make it some sort of game or something else,
I'll never do it. But anyways, Katie you have your
finger on your nose. I was it.
What do you got you? Um, It doesn't matter.
I'm sorry, it's okay. Oh, I know what it was.
Okay, this is this is going to sound really silly to but like
well another piece of advice that I have is that, okay?
I'm gonna wait. I changed how I'm going to tell
the story. I don't know how to shave my
legs. Like, I shave my legs.
I shave my legs. Sometimes when I fucking feel
like it not all the time because it's my body and I will do what
I want. Sometimes I choose to shave my
legs. And I remember, Being a kid and
like, getting to the age where like the leg shaving
conversation, had to had to happen.
And like, I just like, I remember, like, I got a razor,
but like that. Was it like that was the end of
the conversation. There was never like, and here's
how you shave your legs. And so, I have this ongoing
fascination with how people shave their legs because I know
one has ever taught me how to do it.
I've figured out the system that Works for me, that involves a
glow, like, weird gymnastics and like, yoga poses.
But I think that weirdly that sort of experience of just
wondering like, how does everybody else in the world
shave? Their legs is sort of like a
weirdly good analogy for like nobody is born knowing how to do
laundry. Nobody is born knowing how to do
dishes. Nobody is born knowing how to
drive a car. But doing dishes or doing the
laundry. Often for people who don't
struggle with executive dysfunction, and don't struggle
with systems. Is just you.
It's, you just take it for granted.
Like, you just wash the dishes. Of course, just wash the dishes.
But it's like, no, let's actually break down the process
of like washing a dish. What does that look like?
How do you wash a dish? Like, where do you keep the
soap? Where do you keep the sponge?
How do you like, literally physically, how do you wash the
plate? So like it gets clean and I
think Sometimes whether on purpose or no parents can
sometimes look at kids and go. Well this is a thing that's
really easy for me. It's just washing a dish.
It shouldn't be that hard, but it's like, especially if your
kid is neurodivergent sometimes, like, it's not just like, well,
why can't you wash your cereal bowl correctly.
It's will have you ever shown your kid, how to wash the cereal
bowl like, have you ever literally talked through that
process? I stopped.
And then this is sort of like a Divergent soapbox, but I think
that also, then becomes one of the big issues as to why I like
weaponized. Incompetence is such a problem
because it's like, sometimes people don't actually know how
to wash the dishes, but it stays much more convenient for them to
pretend like they can possibly learn because it puts less work
on their plate. But then it unfairly sort of
impacts lives with their partner.
And so I think That in conversation with systems
checking in to say, like when I say, do the laundry, do you know
what that means? When I say you need to take out
the garbage? Do you know what, I expect in
that conversation? You know?
Yeah. How do you shave your legs?
Yeah, Clarity. Absolutely.
I mean, I remember back back when I was a child person living
at home, with my parents and my brother, every pretty much every
day, there was basically they were too In like, nightly little
tasks that had to be done after dinner, which was unloading, the
dishwasher, and doing the dishes, and my brother, and I
would switch unloading, the dishwasher was significantly
easier because my dad after after a couple years of I think
just like Brewing frustration that was never like he was
never, he's never, he was never actually mad.
But anyways he apparently it was the job of the person doing the
dishes to also wipe down the counters, you know.
No, like pull out the thing and wipe the crumbs behind the
thing. And there was one time when he
got really mad. I want to say, it was my
brother, but I do, honestly don't remember at one of us for,
like, being done claiming to be like, yeah, I did.
I'm done, I did them but not wiping down the counters.
And he was like, kind of said frustratedly, like doing the
dishes, also means wiping down the counters and all of things.
And, you know, being a teenager was sort of like, But looking
back, it was like, that was an amazing moment because he was
like, oh now I know what you expect.
Like that's wonderful. Like and it's and we never had
that argument. I was just was like, is now I
know that. That's what's expected.
Congratulations, you did it. You made it to the middle of the
episode. You should go have some water
usually more of those like use that drink.
Water sometimes it just depends on my mood.
Was it this time? It's just water.
Just water. Just have a little just a little
water break. Hey, it's speaking of water
break. Do you know where you can have
water breaks? Is that conventions?
Segue seamless? Transition of, we just want to
let you know that again because of your continued support and
your continued enthusiasm and your continued just sharing of
infant Quest into the world. We have been invited to two more
conventions and we're going to be appearing at Emerald City
Comicon. ComiCon in Seattle.
Yes. See ya.
And I always get them mixed up and then we're also going to be
at PacSun plugged in Philadelphia.
We're going to be doing Nur over divergency at the gaming table
and a couple of other panels at both conventions.
So if you want to come by and say hi to us and, you know, give
us the socially distanced elbow bump feel free.
Yeah, we'll be there. It'll be great.
Will be will be paxing and will be Emerald earring.
That was dumb. And if you want to know more
about just our tour schedule, as a whole, you can head over to
infinite quest.com and look for the tour.
Dates tab, so do that. Check it on up, on out.
Check it out to be and also transition.
Now on the topic of like a child, maybe not knowing how to
think. Oh my gosh, you're right
brother. Yeah, fuck.
That was a good one. Oh, ice punch the table so hard.
Sweet had already really hurt too.
Oh Bob's. I'm sorry believe it.
It's great. That was so Hard for those of
you not watching at home, I just watched really hard and it was
very funny. Well, I wouldn't know.
Well, I mean, if you think it's funny that it's funny.
Every so often they just get me just wanted, was with my hand
just flops around. I just smacked it as hard as I
could into the table now. Sorry sweets, but on the topic
particularly with children, but everybody with ADHD in terms of
like, I think people who don't have executive dysfunction.
Yeah, doing the dishes is just doing the dishes.
Like what do you mean, how you just do the dishes?
But for people with ADHD, we have a really hard time grouping
processes together. Such to just understand it as
one process. So, like, for me doing the
dishes, doing the laundry, take out the trash.
That's not one thing that is many, many different things that
is in each and all of those different things.
Are also many other things and it can get Really overwhelming
really fast like seemingly small tasks that you might think of as
being very, simple is actually a complex sequence of smaller
tasks. And for a person with ADHD, you
know, generally, you know, if a person just tries to do the
dishes and like really tries like goes for it, they'll do
some version of doing the dishes, you know?
But To a person with ADHD. We're constantly stacking those
smaller things manually, and that is a lot of mental efforts,
a lot of work, but even more than that, more than the work of
having to stack, those things manually is having to decide
what order they should be in in the first place.
So for me, even if I'm like, a highly-trained dishwasher, you
know, like, even if I, you know, I'm 27, I watched millions of
dishes in my life, probably I'm pretty decent at it.
Now, So when I'm doing the dishes, I'm not actively making
the decision of what process to take.
I still have to go. Okay, pick up Dish, grab soap,
like I still because that's how the ADHD brain works, but I'm
not actively figuring that out. I have figured that out and so
the value of teaching, particularly an ADHD child, but
anybody with ADHD showing them how to do it.
It removes the extra stress of them having to decide what order
to replace all those tiny things.
And it's very unlikely that it's going to end up being like, do
the dishes. Like, it's always going to, sort
of be those stacks of smaller tasks, but you can alleviate
some of the stress of that, by taking away, the guesswork of
all that. And just showing them even
though it might seem very simple, what you're doing is
you're removing the uncertainty that they have the entire time
going like, oh my gosh, am I stacking all these minut tasks
correctly? I don't know.
Is my mom going to get mad at me, you know?
Yeah. Sorry, sorry.
I say you write something down. I was like, oh no, I just had an
idea for a tick tock. Oh, really a little post.
He's not gonna do. It's really good idea.
We have a lot of posters around. Also, the bottom of my leg is
asleep, just the bottom weird. I don't know, like, the
underside of my thighs asleep, but it's the only part that's
asleep. Strange, it feels really weird,
huh, so I can think about right now.
Well, another thing I wanted to bring up And this is a, how do I
say this? Oh my gosh, I'm leaving all this
in because this is the ADHD life.
This is just going to call for it.
You're not alone. Dear listeners happens to all of
us. So, is often we talk about this.
A lot you've talked about on your tick-tocks, often our
systems. Don't look like systems to the
outside eye sometimes. What looks like clutter to
somebody else is actually like, no, I know where the stuff is
like, asked me to grab a thing like a here.
It is. You know, on this seemingly
cluttered surface. I actually have some sort of
system in my head and that's valid.
But sometimes that's not the case sometimes.
Our sit with the things that we've convinced ourselves that
there are systems in place, when are actually are not in, its
stressing us out and I'm calling myself out here a little bit too
because like let's say there's a person who it's me, you can just
say it's me, that's okay. You can just say it's no I'm not
sure who their method of doing laundry and Is when they you
know get undressed at the end of the day they just do they just
leave their clothes as they lie on the floor and then come
laundry day or whenever they decide to do laundry they pick
their clothes up off the floor, put it in the in a thing or
whatever or just lug it over and then they continue from there
and there they don't that's fine for them.
They doesn't bother them. That's the case that's fine.
That is super valid. Like if you have, you know, a
roommate or something, you have to make sure you're not like
stressing anybody else out but like that's fine, that's that's
valid. however, I think we have to be really honest with
ourselves about what actually bothers us because I will say
this. Clutter and closing the floor
and what not are not objectively problems.
I don't think they're like objectively morally, bad.
I think, if up the person is okay with the Clutter genuinely
or K with the clothes on the floor, then there's no problem
as fine you're doing great, it only becomes a problem.
When the person themselves, you yourself are getting stressed.
When it getting stressed out about it, if it's making you
depressed or making you anxious. And I think that's A really
important distinction to make in the ADHD world.
Is I know I've been it was like I couldn't sleep last night
because I kept tossing us around in my head and I apparently
never actually settled on the way of articulating it, although
although I don't think there is objective moral judgment to,
like, clutter being bad. We're closing the for being bad,
I think if it bothers you, then that's when it becomes a
problem. And I think we need to be honest
about what actually bothers us. Because, you know, I could craft
a wonderful arguments. For why my desk is so dirty
right now. Like, oh no, I need to keep the
sticky notes randomly all over the place so that I'll stumble
across them occasionally and then I'll, you know, like I
could come up with an argument, not for other people, but like
for myself like I could convince myself, that's fine.
But if I'm honest with myself, my cluttered desk, really
bothers me. Yeah, bothers me a lot.
I feel claustrophobic it frustrates me when I can't find
something that I need. And I think that's something
that's really important for us to do.
With ourselves is just acknowledge, really, am I okay
with this? And if the answer is, yes, if
the answer is like, yeah, I don't care.
I don't want to spend the time to clean my desk.
I'm fine with it then great. But I think we really need to be
honest with ourselves. I hope that made sense.
Yeah. Is it but yeah no I mean it hit
absolutely does because like I have the same thing like I just,
I struggle so much because it's like I and I've said this before
to, like this is not new information was like I hate
this. I hate how this Kate said
gesturing to the desk that nobody at home can see like but
I hate it like it stresses me out and makes also me feel
claustrophobic but it's like there's also a part of me that's
like I just know it's going to go back to go to looking like
this. And so I I just, I think like,
that's I think maybe I've become sort of very defeatist in my in
my struggle with like clutter and organization especially
because I just go well it's going to look nice for a while
and then, you know, I'll need to look for something and I'll move
stuff around and then it'll all go to shit again.
And I think like I think I'm being too defeatist with myself.
Like I think if I did put in a modicum percentage more effort
could like get a little desk, organizer, a little tray or
something and like not have as much of a problem but I'm also
working 10 hours a day all the time and I don't have I was
gonna say I don't have the energy but that's a lie.
Like I don't have the interest in spending the energy on.
Okay now I have to put this and I have to put it right back in
the like thinking about that stresses me out and that's the
problem is like the the the thought of like having to like
put a thing back is stressful and that's weird.
Like that's a weird thing to get like super stressed out about I
do like constantly. It's like like, you know, like,
I love tiny drawers. Mmm.
Like one of my dreams has always been to like, own one of those
like, very, like old extravagant, like roll-top desk
was like all the different, like drawers and shit.
Because I love drawers. I think Georgia, like amazing.
And they're so cute and interesting, and I got like a
little square and likely put the little thing in, but I go.
But I would I would set that up and I remember doing that even
as a kid like with like, you know I'd have my desk and I'm
like okay this is my marker. Hers.
And this is my stickers and this is my whatever drawer and then
two days later, it magically somehow out of nowhere because I
don't register when it's happening.
It just all goes to shit. And so it's just like, well now,
you know, now the marker doors just like the shit drawer and
they're all just the shit drawers.
So it's like, I don't know, like, it's and it's and it's
something that I've struggled with for so long.
Like since I was a little, little little kid that it's like
at some point I have at least been able to forgive myself for
it and go. Okay.
This is clearly a part of who I am.
This is clearly part of my executive dysfunction, but it
doesn't make the process of knowing that just the, the
clutter just creeps in any less frustrating, and embarrassing
and claustrophobic. Hmm.
I guess. Yeah, I had to lie.
I mean, I guess I think I think a lot of the stress comes from
the mental energy of deciding. Yeah, of making decisions
constantly. Because like, if you're like me
and like you speak, but, you know, if you're like us then any
given thing I have around me, this this pencil right here, my
like, EXO my face lotion, that pair of scissors, like if I were
to address any one of those objects right now and go, okay,
let's declare the table. Each one of those things would
then require me to Decide where it should go.
And that's the fucking hard, right?
And so I think, you know, as my grandmother and probably a lot
of people's grandmother's, just would say everything in its
place, in a place for every place for everything and
everything in its place. But that starts with a place for
everything. Yeah.
Because like, if I have a cup that I put pencils and whatnot,
it throwing the pencil on the table and putting depends on the
cup is no more physical energy. They're both physically.
The same amount of energy like I'm reaching there, or I'm
reaching there. The hard part is picking the
place that is supposed to be. Yeah.
And that's what I super struggle with.
I mean, you know, I have at home, I have three of those,
like, Little Hardware, organizer drawers, and those help a lot.
I also have like a pegboard and those help a lot, but I have
always found that once I get a system, which is hard.
But once I like, Moment of, like, I can do better, I can
like be better for myself like I can solve these problems that
bother me. And I've had like moments of
hyper focus on. Like, I'm going to mount the
drawers and label all. It makes things a lot easier
because at that point your eyes that does that one Tick Tock
whose Name. Escapes Me said, don't put it
down, put it away, you can only put it away if there is an away
and that's a really hard part. But I think once if we can get
there, Which often takes out. But if we can get to a point
where there is a place for the stuff putting it in, those
places is easier. It's not, it doesn't just like
all of a sudden solve it but it is, it's easier if you can get
over that hump and I'm a huge advocate of labeling things
because all the time, you know, with with little drawers, you'll
eventually get to where you're like.
Okay, this is the marker draw. This is the whatever drawer, but
I'll just forget what I called them.
And eventually, I'll just be like, was it this one yet?
Sure. And then, all of a sudden to the
marker and pencil drawer And then I don't end it end.
It just goes to shit from there. So, I'm big, I'm a big proponent
of labeling things just to like save what you decided, you know,
remembering systems through take a break because it has these
yet. Yes.
I have no concept of what time it is.
Oh it's we're 45. Oh no, we forgot to do.
Do a half sees. Oh I think I got it.
It's cool. Interstitial.
Just kidding. You don't have to actually, no,
it's fine. All right, last bullet, rower
last little bullet round here. Okay.
Just generally in try to, like, without Judgment of ourselves as
your freely 45 minutes. Yeah, I've if you would fucking
at I thought it was like, 20, really real, like, 100%.
I thought I've been taking for later, I've such timeline as
holy shit. We gotta meet you.
If I wasn't looking at the saying, I would have no idea but
without judgment tool. Without judging ourselves.
Okay? What are some things that have
helped us develop systems? Katie, we're helping others to
Moses. I the sound so pretentious, but
I have he said after immediately saying not to judge ourselves, I
have I've really gotten into the idea of that a system should be
Sustainable practical and repeatable.
And I'm deeply invested in that idea.
And that's an idea that like I actually did research on because
I got so frustrated about why can't I keep my clutter under
control. And so like this, this section
feels a bit hypocritical because I'm like, listen to me kids,
even though I my desk is messy but a lot of the systems that I
do use that are successful are because it's all three of those
things. And I I really truly believe
that to be successful and to help you.
It has to be all three of those things sustainable practical and
repeatable. Because if it's not, there is a
sort of fundamental building block to that system.
That is ultimately going to like collapse.
It does that kind of make sense? Yeah.
Oh, yeah, totally. I think it's, especially the
having something be I think this would fall in the sustainable or
the repeatable category, but something that I've always
struggled with is sort of saving my progress.
You know, we're all like I'll have some day of hyper-focus
organization section in my kitchen or in my like, yeah,
tool stuff or whatever, and it will get really organized but
then it back slides and then it eventually turns to shit again.
But I've noticed that the reason it back, slides, one of the
reasons that it back slides. Is because after I've done that
immense amount of mental work to figure out how to organize it.
Overtime. I'm just slowly forgetting what
I decided. And so, any time we can anytime
you dear listener, can figure out a way to note, what you
decided be that, you know, labeling, something or
assembling like a written down list procedure thing, saving
your progress is immensely important.
You still have to do that. That's a whole different thing
is like following the procedure and putting the thing back in
the drawer. That's labeled that's a whole
different thing, but Getting those labels saving your
progress. You already did in a shit ton of
work to deciding where things should go deciding the places
for everything. So saving that progress is
immensely helpful and I think essential to repeating assistant
like for example with like pegboard, I can't remember the
word, but with pegboards, a lot of people who have pegboards for
stuff will outline the thing that goes there and like either
Sharpie or tape or something like that so that if it's not
there, they See the outlines stage manager and me Delight.
Mmm, it's a good idea, right? Um, what is it?
Just spiked your pegboard spike is out is gone.
Well, I mean, like, when he like, put, like tape on the
stage to like, Mark, where stuff goes, oh, yeah, I like the props
table. You like, put take down that
spiking sweet. Are you?
I like that. Very cool.
Very like Dynamic spiking it Sam.
But that's a really good example, because I can't tell
you how many times. I've organized my peg board, but
just slowly all I'll be using a tool and then I'll just go, I
don't remember where this goes, but it fits there and then after
a little bit of doing that doing that, it's all gone to shit
again. But if I put a little piece of
tape that says, like pliers or whatever, Then again, I don't
have to consistently. Do that mental work of deciding
because I already have done that and I've saved my progress.
So I put them there again, putting it away, not putting it
down. That's take status requires
practice and as one of my better therapist.
Once said to me, you have to do those things manually for a
while, but I promise they'll eventually become automatic.
Yeah, because we are creatures of habit like, well, humans in
general, but people with ADHD like ever lose something but
then consistently find it in a similar place.
Like, I lost my keys. Oh, they're on this weird
location, but they seem to consistently end up in this
weird location. It is never remember.
So ultimately, we are capable of forming habits, but we have to
do it manually for a while, and that's really fucking hard.
Because, you know, with me, like, you know, after I eat my
sandwich and I have the dish, like, I just blackout.
During the time when I would be going, like, I just don't know
what happens. All of a sudden.
It's just, like, three days later and there's 40 dishes in
my sink. So it's really hard when again.
That's where somebody else can come in.
And help you with that or just help you remember or help you
dissect that moment. But we have to do it manually
for a while. But either way, I think saving
your progress in the form of a list or labels is immensely
helpful because you already did the work, you already did the
work you know. It's hard to do the work.
That's you got to actually do the work.
Once you have saving that progress so you don't have to do
it again. Is mentally helpful, as I think
you touched on something really important, which is that
sometimes stuff ends up in a weird spot.
Consistently But I think what is really important to know is that
sometimes that weird unconventional spot is the
system or can be the foundation of the system.
Like, I keep my, my nail file under my couch, like, in the
Nexus. I just keep it under the couch
because whenever I think about like, oh my I should file my
nails. I'm like watching TV and I'm on
the couch and then I think I wish I had a nail file right now
so I started Keeping nail file like right there, like in the
little cup on the coffee table. And so, yeah, that's a weird
fucking place to keep your nail files, but that is a system that
works because it goes I know where the nail file is.
I can find the nail file and I will use it when I need it.
Like, is it that annoying? When you're like in the bathroom
you're like, fuck. I wish I had a nail file is I
gotta go up to living room. Dig under the couch.
Yes. But for the most part works.
The other thing that I wanted to touch on and I feel like this
this is something that we don't talk about a lot on the podcast,
but I think that especially in conversation with developing
systems one of the hardest parts and I don't speak for everybody
but I'm definitely speaking for myself is unlearning the
internalized ableism that you may or may not feel about stuff
like lists or labels or no, Note or whatever because one of the
things that I've honestly very recently realized is like
there's been like a really popular Tick-Tock going around
about like have a list of stuff to do for when you don't know
what to do, like have like a little activity menu down
terrorists and then you know, that and there's other ones that
go around a lot to just like, you know, like roll a D20 off of
a list and decide that kind of thing or like, you know, roll a
D20. And that's how much time we're
going to spend cleaning the kitchen or whatever.
And I hate that Heat that shit. I hate all of it.
I hate it so much. But that hate of that is
absolutely rooted in my own ableism and I recognize that and
I go. Okay, well, why don't?
I like it? And I go because I'm not a
fucking kid. I'm not a child.
I shouldn't need to roll a D20 to clean my kitchen.
I shouldn't have to have a little fun Z menu of, like, I'm
bored. What should I do?
I should need that. There's like, okay, what do you
mean should like what do you mean?
You shouldn't need it. And so I'm so resistant to stuff
like that because I find it to be infantilizing.
And immensely frustrating in terms of my considering myself,
like a functioning adult, like whatever that looks like.
And so for really long time, like I would get really mad when
I saw videos like that. I'm like, oh well must be really
nice for you, like roll your D20, you nerd, and I go, but
that's a perfectly valid system. Like that's a perfectly valid
system, that works splendidly for a lot of people.
And who am I to judge? Because of my own sort of like
preconceived notions about the Pressure and the demands that I
put on myself to be you know this like perfectly functional
adult without a functioning system and it's like we I mean I
don't have a system, I don't have a D20, I don't have a menu,
I don't have any of that stuff and if I use that it may very
well make me much more motivated to do so.
But I only like literally, like within the past couple of
months, did I realize like the reason why I have such a Cyril,
reaction is because I have just constantly put pressure on
myself to not need help. And it's like, that's silly,
like I'm doing myself a disservice.
I am limiting my access to a system that could help me
because of my own, sort of like, idea, that that's not something
I need is that kind of makes sense.
Oh yeah, totally. I mean, I kind of, I do that
this like, oh God, I totally do. That too.
Oh yeah. I mean I when you see how I say
it, um, How do I say this as well?
I think we might my brain like lit up when you said
infantilizing. because, When I think of like, you know,
somebody will say this is all over.
Like Tick-Tock, comment sections and whatever.
When somebody says like oh I have like a jar of chocolates or
something. Yeah, this is a, this is a
conflation of a bunch of different skirts.
I don't know. Like I have a jar of chocolate,
whatever. And then after I finished
cleaning the kitchen at night, I eat a piece of chocolate and
that's cool. And like this little stupid
voice in my head is, like, what are you like a little kid?
You gotta reward yourself with it, but then immediately after
long like Eric what makes it right?
What is that? What exactly what does it
matter, like they're cleaning their kitchen.
That's how they do it. It's a really good idea.
You know, if it works for them and I kind of do Wonder like how
many of those systems would work for me if I wasn't so hadn't.
Didn't have all this internalized ableism of like but
I shouldn't have to do is like well but yeah like you said what
the fuck did you shouldn't mean like yeah this is your life
dude. You know but that's I'm just
realizing how much I struggle with that.
Yeah. I also this is a whole different
thing but I always resented or Denies people in school because
I was horribly, disorganized all the time.
And whenever I saw, like a person sit down, and they pull
out their like thing that has the color coded whatever's.
I was like, yeah, but honestly, it's absolutely because I was
jealous. Actually, I could do that, but
that, that is still with me that feeling of like, oh people who
who have their little like, nightly routine of like wiping
down. The counter is like for no but
there's no. Is rooted in nothing logical.
It is just its remnants of when I was in school and these kids
would come and they'll be all organized which I just couldn't
get myself to do. I'm just realizing how connected
those things are, huh. That's got to be another episode
or something. How are we going to do a part 2?
Yeah I don't know or it's like a school thing.
How many episodes we've done on school?
Hey Eric. Yeah.
Have you podcaster versary? Oh shit.
Is it bar podcaster versary? Yes it is.
Wow. Happy podcasters.
One year ago this week, the first episode of infinite Quest
was published put on the internet.
Wow, I think was just put on YouTube to we didn't have any
calls. This is recorded as I'm call.
Wow. The rain God.
What are your howl on my head? Because my, I just got out of
the shower you were here sweetheart.
Wow, I love you. I love you, too.
Wow, we've got a lot of meat here.
Yeah. In a weird year, we've been
conventions where we would joke about.
Yeah, Drew we used to joke about.
Yeah, like so now we're gonna be so fancy and go to conventions.
And then it happened like six months in.
Eric pretty cool. For what that's worth.
This has been one of the best years, my whole life, too
sweetheart. And that's it.
That's the end of the episode. Everybody.
Thank you so much for listening. And again, thank you so much for
being patient with us while we were gone.
But we are back feeling, hot feeling ready to go champing at
the bit. That's what other than that.
What other saying? I'm aware?
Of course, I turn into a horse. When their sugar cubes, proximal
swing, is that what what triggers in and the full moon?
Oh, and the folio case? So, no tea houses at night.
No bad idea. Like Seabiscuit.
I remember that's it. Was that see?
What was that black beauty? Where they feed of the sugar
cube ISO? Viscerally remember that scene?
I feel like you're on a boat, I think it's Black Beauty like
they feed it, a sugar cube in his little is a horse lips go
like on the thing and I was like oh I've always wanted a few to
sugar cube tours. You never fed a sugar cube too.
Horn. Ah, I never done it.
My gosh, I can make that happen. I'd love to that sounds great.
Yeah, yeah, well, sing a song. Yeah.
Well, hey everybody, if you're not familiar with the grand
tradition of the patreon song yet every week, if you subscribe
to our patreon, which you can do by visiting patreon.com slash
infinite Quest, you get your, get your name in the song and
you are immortalized in the halls of quest.
Holla. That's right.
This is a big Vault.
It looks like Odin's Vault, it does we, there's Stonemason who
chisels your name on the wall? Is Brian is Brian Brian
producers who does his tentacles?
Yeah he just has a little bit of little tentacles.
He's got like a little chisel. A little tiny hammer and he's
like poop Ting, Ting, Ting, Ting, Ting, Ting, Ting, Ting,
Ting, anyway, so here's long, I should stress before we start
that we exhaustively, rehearse this before going, and we're
done this week. We'd like to thank Rory, and
also, Tom, and Shelly, and Gabby and say, holy shit.
Me, and Jack, and Sophie, and back up and John Hurt.
So, thank you, Rory, and Tom, and Shelly, and Gabby handsome,
and James, and William, and strangle very harshly and Becca.
And Johnson is live at home. I had a whole ride self.
Did you are open every day? Thanks.
Not be enough. Unless we also think Sarah Huff.
Huff. Huff Huff.
I'm sorry Clara. I need a girl and I'm from over
two different questions. Just remember that we love you
sir off.