Boy how Katie I'm times sir, crushing those ADHD crafting
challenges, huh? You know, me those crappy
acknowledges that you're doing at Tick-Tock.
Doc cam /. Hey dude, yes.
On the website, jennykarl.com w https://web.facebook.com/roxasroldan.
Your mom's not using the landline, you know, well, just
make sure that you check, make sure that you would have minutes
left on your internet. Number one, people paid hourly
for the internet. Yeah, gosh I still cook Edie's
at the grocery store. Yeah I still remember my
brother, how mad he would get. He be playing RuneScape and like
my mom or dad will make like a phone call on the landline and
it would fuck with our internet because it was like dial-up.
It was a whole thing in the goood household.
Now we don't have such problems, would you say?
Thanks Obama. You're having a good time.
Yes, Kitty. I would say that Katie.
I'm sorry. Give it up.
Yes, I unloaded Behavior. Dude, and welcome back to
infinite quests where we're talking about The internet I
guess. No, we're done.
N FTS. Oh gosh.
We're gonna talk about nftl. I would like an empty of my
face, not forgetting things. That's, hey, that's pretty good.
And if t.i. making that into it, that's pretty good.
No. Today, I will, I guess we'll
start at a place weird, couple of days.
It has been a weird couple of days.
Yeah, I feel like and, you know, okay, you know how I want to
approach, you know what, I want to talk about the I think this
is, maybe this is a generative discourse to have.
Your dummy. Just grilled still allowed me.
Just grab. I think it.
Got picked up by the mic. Did it?
Yeah, I can see you next time. Um, you did I meet a dear
listener? Don't worry.
We'll spare you. I had to hear it.
You did. That's fine.
But no, it's been a weird. Couple days.
Some weird stuff has happened. But without getting into too
much details? I think the biggest thing that I
think is interesting about the days that we've had is, it's
really made me think about How I make decisions.
Yeah. And how my executive dysfunction
and how my weird like I always forget that I lack impulse
control until something comes up to highlight it in space.
Like remind you in retrospect. Yeah.
Hey by the way that was impulsive.
Yeah because like for me like I don't I don't ever think that
I'm acting impulsively like I don't ever like sit down and go.
I'm just gonna I mean sometimes I go Oh okay.
Like Leroy Jenkins. Pretty good.
Just like we talked about on that on the on the impulsivity
episode. Like if you're thinking about
being impulsive then you're probably being spontaneous.
Yeah. Like because your point you're
thinking about it and planning. Yeah.
And so but I yeah, I mean I think it's just it's really
interesting like kind of with everything that's happened.
I think like going back and looking at like just all the
times in my life where I've just like, said yes to things because
like they sounded cool but I like didn't really think it
through like all the places were like I've overcome Committed
myself. Like that's a really big one and
just honestly like if we're being honest, just all the times
that like I have honestly and authentically caused like
inadvertent harm because of how I tend to make decisions.
Yeah I know what you mean. I mean I think it's interesting.
I think this is one of those situations in which you and I
have very different perspectives on this because of Iowa's early.
Of gnosis you were late diagnosis.
Yeah, exactly. Because for me, since I was
really diagnosis, I knew quite early on in my life, although
not nearly as much to the extent that I know now.
But I knew quite early in my life that impulsivity and
thinking things through, and, and rashly, committing to things
that that was a part of my life. And so after several years of
doing that, I suddenly, I like hover outside of myself and
like, watch myself from the outside.
Yeah. As I'm making decisions because
I know I'm impulsive. And I know, I don't think about
things enough. So even if I do, Think I'm
thinking about something enough. I know that I can't trust my own
judgment to say whether or not I think I thought about it enough.
So like, I never feel like I thought about something enough.
You like, in this moment right now, I can't tell you like what
percentage of the time I think I've thought things through
enough. Yeah, I think certainly they
have times when I've thought about things way the fuck too
much. And certainly times when I
thought very little but those things feel very similar to me.
Cuz I know I can't trust my own internal gauge of those things.
And so generally all either way, overthink things because I known
no amount of thinking will give me certainty that I've thought
about it enough or not thinking about it at all, because I know
no amount of thinking will give me certainty that I've thought
about it enough. So I either just go like, yeah,
that sounds cool, let's do that or it's like, okay, give me six
months to like viciously plan over it.
Yeah, I mean overthinking for me like that is that's to me is
like the death knell. Was like the minute that I
realized like I started like overthinking something.
I'm never getting it back. Like, there's never going to be
that moment where I'm like, okay, I'm 100% sure.
And like the one of the places that I feel like that comes up
and we don't talk about a lot is like relationships because like
of the amount of like overthinking that can happen in
a relationship, like I spend a lot of time, Overthinking
whether or not you like me like now I know you're going to go.
Oh my God, I love you so much, you're great.
But like I really do like I will.
I will spend a lot of time being like, Oh my God, I said that
thing, or I did that thing and like Eric secretly hates me.
Christie really hates me like, all that stuff.
And so like for me, one of the ways that I don't want to say
like opt out but the one of the ways that I've found to avoid
overthinking is to kind of like give something a broad overview.
Yeah, but sometimes the broad overview isn't enough.
And and one thing that I find, now, I'm just like ranting, but
like one of the things that I find to be really frustrating is
the fact that like, I tend to be very trusting.
I tend to be very like and I like, I really do.
I really do believe that like, people are inherently good.
And I think that when somebody causes harm, it is usually
coming from a place of fear, or, or issues that we can't really
understand. And so, when somebody goes, hey,
dipshit, you did something hurtful, I go.
Go. Oh no.
I didn't think about it enough and then I feel really bad but
then it's like if I don't know I don't know where the fuck I was
going on. You know, I think yeah, totally.
I think this is going to be very, very bring up a panels.
Is that I try to always assume good intent.
I think very rarely if somebody is acting with genuine bad
intent. It's usually pretty easy to
spot. You know.
Yeah but far more often when hurt happens through impulsive
decisions were impulsive commitments.
I think it happens not through bad intentions, but those good
intentions, not being matched with good practice and follow
through and all those sorts of things because that's really
hard. Having good.
Intentions is generally pretty easy.
Yeah. I mean I don't want to have to
qualify that too much. Sometimes it gets pretty dark up
in that Noggin, but having good intentions is generally pretty
easy, but having the skills to match those good intentions with
practices in. What not such to make sure that
those good intentions are. What are realized in reality?
Yeah, that's really hard. And I think that's what I
struggle with a lot. I mean, you know, me pretty
well. Like I am never, I've never once
ever intended to hurt you. Yeah, but I'm sure that I have,
I'm sure that I have just because we've known each other
for a year and a half and you've told me several times but and
it's easy. I think to fall into despair
about that. Yeah.
When you wouldn't. Only hurt someone or people that
you care about it love. It's really easy to just fall
into Despair and go. Wow, I must have not.
Like, maybe I didn't have good intentions and maybe in if I
don't have good intentions. And what's even the point in
trying? Because anything I do is just
gonna end up hurting people so I might as well just lock myself
in the room within a room with shelf-stable food in the bucket
or something. I mean it's a pretty Grim image
there. Sorry that's fine.
I mean I think I think I mean my solution to that is I I just
immediately convinced myself that I'm a terrible awful
person, you know. Like there's no there's always
just like oh this thing. Oh God, I'm awful.
You know? And so I've been like, working
really hard on that. And I think part of that growth
and part of the ability to look at issues that come with like
rash impulsive decision-making or, you know, just like not
thinking something all the way through is is just going.
Well, I guess like being able to be Hey, with accepting the fact
that like you may inadvertently hurt somebody or you may
inadvertently cause harm or you may inadvertently caused her.
And it's not like it's not like you woke up in the morning and
you were like today, I will hurt as many people as I can, you
know, it's that sometimes it's just going to happen by the very
nature of just. I mean, living like even if rash
impulsive decision-making wasn't like the topic of conversation,
I think sometimes like we all just make choices that were
like, oh, this is Uh, okay thing and then you're like ah, fuck,
no, it wasn't. And so I think in those moments
like what is really important is being able to look at yourself
and saying like, you know what, like you're not a bad person but
you did a thing that was maybe less than good.
And so, what can I learn from this?
How can I grow from this? Like, what am I doing to
mitigate the hurt that I could? Cause in the future by not
thinking things through? Yeah, and that, Spent that's
been, like something really interesting to like, ruminate
on, ya know. But reminds me of something
Patton, Oswalt, the comedian, who is one of my dream podcast?
Yes. By the way, if anybody has a
line of bad Nas walled, call your uncle hat and tell him I
want to be on the podcast. But for those who don't know,
patent, Oswald's wife died, it would have been gosh about six
years ago now but Patton oswalt's wife died Zoo.
Really been safe here at those like two years.
Yeah, I know, right? Yeah it was 2015.
Okay, but Jesus. So sad.
Why? I just remember what I was doing
when I found out. But anyways, his wife died and
he later maybe a year later. So he went on Stephen Colbert,
and Colbert is the oldest or sorry?
Is the third oldest of ten Brothers but his two older
brothers and his father died, when he was quite young.
I mean, he was, I don't want to say exactly how, but when he was
young. So, either way, that grief is a
big part of his life, Stephen Colbert.
Also, one of my dream podcast. Guess if anybody knows me, I
would drop my one. I would perish but they were
They were talking about grief. Fascinating conversation, Go Go,
YouTube it but Patton Oswald said, grief?
I'm paraphrasing a bit grief, fortifies.
If not acknowledged, if you don't address it and look at it
and talk about it and talk to others about it, and do whatever
you got to do to deal with it. It fortifies, it gets stronger
calcifies. It becomes part of you and I
think shame is much the same way the shame that we feel when we
make a mistake, or in this case that we're talking about here,
Impulsively, make a decision or commit to something the hurt
that we might cause in doing that causes shame and that
shame. If not acknowledged can calcify
and more importantly, I don't know if shame is even the quite
word i-i've. I think I've said this on the
podcast before, but I differentiate between shame and
guilt and a very precise way where game guilt is I've done
something bad. Shame is I am something bad.
Yeah. And shame is often uses as an
excuse. I'm often not always, but often
we use shame as an excuse to not deal in learn the lessons of
guilt. Yeah.
When we just think I am a bad person because there's nothing
to be done about that. Yeah.
If you are bad, then it's not my fault.
I just am bad, but if you're feel guilty because you did
something bad, and if you did something bad, then you might be
able to do something to fix it. So I think it's important when
we make mistakes like this, or of the nature that we're talking
about. I think it's important.
Went to acknowledge the feeling of guilt and try not to fall
into shame because shame is not as useful as guilt.
It's, I always think of shame, I don't know.
This is my really silly, but I always think of it as like a
storage room that like you don't want to deal with like, my craft
room. Remember how it used to be?
Because like for me, like, for those of you who don't know,
dear listener. I had a craft room that was
like, just a horrific nightmare of Like just shit, you know,
open the door and toss it. But the problem is is that like
that room didn't start that way? That room started as like a
fairly functional, you know, craft room and then, you know,
one day, I put a little, like, a little box in it.
Then the next day I put a chair that I do never space for, and
then the next day, I put another couple boxes.
But then, I got to the point where, like this room needed to
be dealt with, and it needed to be to be, you know, organized it
needed to be sifted through and looked at But instead I shut the
door and then I got into the situation where every time like
I would have a boxer, I would have a thing that I didn't know
what to do with. I would go upstairs, I would
open the door. I would take a look at this
impossible pile of awful and I would go, nope, not today and I
would chuck the smaller new thing in and then shut the door
and I always kind of felt that way about shame, like, shame,
just kind of like lives in this, in this place inside of you,
where ever, you know, It may be, but then it's like, you know, if
if you have a lot of internalized, shame like me, if
you have a lot of internalized guilt like me, if you have
generally grown up feeling like a fuck up and feeling like a
failure, it's really easy. When you could hand it like a
little manageable box of like hey you didn't think this
through, you didn't do your due diligence to then have to go up
to the, you know, shame craft room and look at all of the tiny
little boxes, all of the boxes that have I've accrued through
your entire life and go I'm just a fuckup.
I can't do anything right? And that is and that has been
something that I'm still working on because it's so much easier
to like throw that on to the shame pile but not deal with it
and say, I'll get to it another day.
I'm not going to sort through and I'm going to let it calcify.
I'm going to let it sit. I just talk for a really long
time. I'm so sorry.
You did not. I think you talked for about the
same amount of time that I did the whole but not something
that's okay. But like, but you know what I
mean like and that's like really how I feel.
About things because like we just we thought like I don't
know, it just seemed fun and that it wasn't did was not.
It was not the right call. Yeah.
And that's okay. Yeah.
I mean I that's okay. Yeah.
It's okay. That we made a bad call, you
know? Yeah.
I mean I think I mean it's not okay but you know what I mean?
Yeah I mean it's nobody died. Have you ever like hyper focused
on cleaning a room or maybe somebody else clean the rooms
really clean and then suddenly like one cup Like on the table
you notice it and you just go. Oh I'll take that cup down
stairs or something. Okay.
Maybe that's what you do. Yeah.
But if the room is really dirty and as much as shit everywhere,
like frankly our offices right now only, you know, like right
now then one more cup is not noticeable, like it's just not
noticeable. If you were to look at the room,
open the door and begin, you wouldn't even notice that one
cup because the whole room is such a shit show.
Similarly, like that room full of Shame.
If you Clean house you know and you dress your shame every time
you get one of those little shame boxes then one box in
there you're like oh there's a box in here I guess I'll take it
out but once that room becomes teeming with shame boxes 1, it
becomes a Monumental task to create that room.
But then also what's one more? Yeah, to just throw on top of
the pile and shut the door on? Yeah, it's already disgusting.
So screw it. Yeah.
Just like I feel when I go to like, when I go back to my
apartment in my my sink is overflowing.
Flowing with dirty dishes and I was like, well, what's one more,
you know? Yeah, if there was only one in
there, then it would be like ooh, it's the difference being a
clean sink and in that clean sanguine.
Maybe I'm running the analogy to the ground but yeah, no.
I mean, I get it. I mean, I think like, it's
really interesting realizing and I think again, maybe this is a
because I think we both have shame, you know what I mean?
I think we both have our those places.
Well, I mean, I'd like to quote to clarify, like I have a
fucking deep shame. I'm not saying that my my shame
room is It can span, you know, know what nothing I thought you
were. I just want to know.
No, I mean, but what I was in say is like, I think the problem
is is that I have, like, I fixed the shame room in the wrong way
because rather than going into the Chamber of and saying, okay,
what can I get rid of? I looked in the same room, this
is the weirdest metaphor, but now I'm just like rolling a
minute and it's kind of work. Yeah.
But I went into the same room and instead of being like, okay,
I need to Like, look at all of this.
I need to figure out what I need to keep.
I need to figure out what I can let go of and get rid of
instead. I like my whole life has been
about just like categorizing it you know like and that's
different than processing. That's different than like
actually looking at those moments and being like, hey, you
know what, like you were 11. It's probably not that big of a
deal or, you know, like, we didn't have all the information.
And so the decision we made was bad and we fixed it and we can
move on and that is okay. But because it's so easy to
categorize shame in. Like, at least for me, I don't
speak for you, but like, for me, I categorize shine been like,
oh, that's a place where I like fucked up in like household
management, or that's where I fucked up in like, letting a
friend down or, oh, I fucked up in, like, being a bad Creator,
like whatever and to rather than just looking at being like, no,
it's all coming from the same place of you, never feel good
enough. You never feel feel like you
work hard enough. You never feel like you do
enough. You never feel like you are
enough that like instead of looking at like a one, small
tiny box of, like the oh, this thing happened and it's like,
yeah, okay, that's cool. That then just like you put it
on the Shelf in the whole shelf tips over.
Yeah. And hits you in the face.
What exactly? I think that's where the
analogies. Yeah.
Well I guess that's where the analogy starts to sort of break
down because if you have a room full of boxes, you can no matter
how many boxes are in that room, you can still go in and grab one
of them. Yeah, whereas with whatever
repressed, whatever we have inside of us.
With, in this case, shame we're talking about you can't just
take one. There's not one unit of Shame
down there. If you're going to address it at
all, you're addressing with the entire thing.
Now you can address the entire thing a little bit at a time,
but it's not a unit of quantity. You can't be like, I'll in
perhaps instances as they occur. You might be able to deal with,
you know you cannot throw more things into the same room, but
once the same room is full, you know, you open the door and it's
all going to come out. There's no opening a door and
just grabbing a couple of things, you know.
And I think that's why one why therapy could be really nice,
because it's, at least you have, like, a Virgil to your Dante.
Like show you through the place, not that.
Well, I guess, you know, so what you're saying is therapy is like
the seven look like hell yeah, I was gonna say in this analogy
has broken somewhere in the middle, somewhere in the middle.
But but I think all of this, although we just sort of thing,
I think is true for everybody. Well, I didn't mean to say that
if what he feels that way, but I think if it does apply in any
way, then it applies across the board.
But specifically, in the case of a person with executive
dysfunction with ADHD, we're going into that situation and
indeed every new situation knowing that our judgment on
whether or not we've thought this through is impaired.
Yeah. Like with that knowledge and
it's good to know that. I think it's always better to
know than to not know, but it does make it seem like we're not
fucking qualified, you know? I'm not if I, you know, if I
make an impulsive decision that ended is it not being the right
decision? I'm my brain for whatever reason
is tempted to think. Well the same mistakes that are
the same flaws in your brain that caused you to make that
decision, not to rid myself of responsibility.
But that led to me making that wrong decision are the same
flaws and faults, that are going to make it even fucking worse
when you try to fix it, so just don't touch it.
Well, you know, whatever. Move on.
And I don't think that's often the way to go.
No. Because I think like, I mean,
The thing that I run into is and I think again a lot of this has
to do with how I sort of process like one I do something bad but
like I put a lot of pressure on myself where it's like, you
know, I know that I tend to like rush into things like, oh, yeah,
I'll do, I overcome it all the time and so for me there's like
this little shitty voice in the back of my head, that goes,
well, if you know that, then you're obligated to work harder
to not do that. And it's like, Yeah, except that
in the moment. I always think I am because I
have that voice constantly going like, oh, your over-committing,
you're like doing the thing. You're like, starting a new
business, you're like, buying the thing that you can't afford,
and in my head that like, that little shitty voice.
At the same time of me going like oh yeah, no I did think
about this. That is also the voice that
like, rationalizes the perches or like justifies the thing, and
it sucks because it's like, I don't want to make bad
decisions. I don't wake up in the morning
going, how can I spend $300 that I don't have today?
But then that voice goes well are you thinking about it?
And then it goes. Yeah, cuz I just had that
thought and so I'm fine. Yeah, it's really frustrating
because it's just like I I really like again, I don't want
to project my feelings onto you because that's not fair.
But I struggle so much with doing this job some days,
especially on days like today or because it's like, I work really
hard to be a good example. I work really hard to keep my
life together. I work really hard to be kind
and compassionate and and good. You know, like an end that means
so much to me and that is That is the most important thing is
just is just being. I don't know, like authentically
myself in the ways that are important and then something
silly happens. Somebody points out something
you know, that you weren't aware of they like you know Shine the
Light On The Diamond a little bit differently and you look at
it through a different facet and you go oh I fucked up.
And it's just like every time every time.
And so it's like the same way that like I sit here every week
and even while I'm talking second and third, and fourth
guests, what I'm saying because I'm waiting for all this to go
away and waiting for this to crumble to the ground because
I'm going to fuck it up. I'm going to ruin it.
I'm going to be the one who takes this ol away from us, and
it just all has to do with that. It has to do with a lifetime of
impulsive decision-making. And Really and truly convincing
myself. That I'm a lot better at things
than I think I actually am. And so having to confront that
is hard and it does hurt and it is shameful but I don't know.
I'm not crying, you're crying, fuck off.
Well, I mean, I think what's the alternative?
I mean, we have the brain that we have.
It makes the decisions that it makes yeah.
We Drive to make better decisions and be more moral
people. All the time, of course.
And I think it's really tempting.
I think our brains are really tempted for the sake of ease of
processing to to engage in all or nothing thinking.
Yeah, thing I am all bad or all good.
Exactly. It's just the time, feel all
bad. Exactly.
It's just easier to think about In on.
Well, I don't want to say, unfortunately.
But for better for worse, that's just not the case.
Nobody, I'm convinced. Nobody is just an all the way
bad person. Yeah, like, I mean, maybe I
don't, I don't know everybody, but either way like regular
people aside from like Warlords regular people, nobody's just
all the way better all the way. Good.
And it's that's frustrating. Yeah because that's so much less
simple than just like there are shitty people and there are good
people maybe I'm one of the shitty ones like that's that's
simpler. It's harder.
It's harsher, bit simpler and I think just our best option is
always just to Keep On Truckin and realize that Realize that
for the sake of others, we have well for not only for our own
sake but also for the sake of others, we have to be kind and
compassionate and patient with ourselves because self-pity and
self-hatred and self-loathing all disguised as
self-actualization. Those don't help anybody.
Yeah. And I mean other people that
doesn't help other people either.
Yeah, if you forgive yourself. And think, okay, I fucked up.
How did I fuck up what caused me to fuck up?
When did I start fucking up asking all the questions that
are hard to ask because you can easily spin out in a
self-loathing using the with those questions because it's so
easy because you go oh so simple.
I should have just done that other thing but then you didn't
because you were fucking being impulsive and you're like fuck
but you won't next time. Yeah.
And that's the whole point. Well, hopefully, and if you do
then you will next time hopefully.
Yeah, I mean, and that's the whole point is that next time.
Now you need to know these things and finding out those
things where exactly you went wrong and I don't mean you
specifically, but where exactly one goes wrong verbally, the
proverbial you that's much harder to do if you are Going
into it with the attitude of hating the fuck out of yourself.
It's hard to be objective and reasonable and and logical.
And I mean I mean emotions of course are valid no matter what
they are but it's hard to do a legitimate autopsy on a
situation. If you're furious at the corpse
like you have to just think of it as like a thing that you are
assembling. And is that a problem?
You have a lot in your life. Eric just humbling for furious,
autopsies, know, I'm quite good at them, green.
It's always a loving feeling, is it?
Period. The Furious Eric, and the
Furious autopsy autopsy of loathing.
Hello, Seattle. We are the various types.
But yeah, I mean I all the stuff that we've been doing this.
It's heavy stuff course, but whatever and it's useful and in
saw a lot of ways satisfying to describe because it reminds us
that we're not alone. Yeah.
But ultimately our best option is always just to keep on going,
be kind to yourself be kind. Others over time, you will get
better at being, kind to yourself and others.
But always go into it with the intent of doing that.
And realizing that with practice, you will get more and
more successful at realizing your good intentions and not
fucking stuff up by accident. But never fully stopping Euros.
Going to Flagstaff of, it's just gonna happen.
You do not have to be good, you do not have to be good.
I did not have to crawl on your knees for A Thousand Miles
through the desert room and leaving.
I don't want to listen. I'm gonna cry.
You only have to let the soft animal of your body.
Love what it loves, tell me about despair yours and I'll
tell you mine. Meanwhile, the world goes on.
Meanwhile, the sun and the clear Pebbles of the rain are moving
across the Landscapes, through the Deep trees, the mountains,
and the rivers, meanwhile the wild geese high in the clean
blue are flying home again. Whoever you are, no matter how
lonely the world offers itself to your imagination, calls to
you, like the wild geese, harsh, and exciting over and over
again. Announcing your place in the
family of things. I'll tell you.
I love you too, sweetheart. I'll tell you.
I love you too, sweetheart.