Hi everybody, it's me. Katie asaurus.
Oh, hi look, it's me. He goood and welcome back to
infinite Quest. This is another episode.
There you go. It sure is.
And when he banging in this episode, we're going to talk
about Eric and eyes. Weirdly conflicting, definition
of the word burnout. Yeah I was really I was really
interested. I didn't expect that you and I
just think a very different things and we think of it each
day. Yeah.
So we're going to talk about burnout in this episode and we
did want to just let you know that this conversation does get
like a little vulnerable recorded.
This one live on Twitch and people in the chat were, you
know, kind of maybe having a rough time with some of it.
So we just wanted to let you know that ahead of time and we
also wanted to let you know that we have a tour.
Yes, there is a tour way I've ever made.
There is a tour happening at First Dates.
Go to infinite Quest. Podcast.com click on tour dates,
we're going all over place. We're going to the east coast.
We're going to Wisconsin. We're Going to places.
So check it out if you want to know, if you want to see if
we're going to be near you and that's it.
Transition, ha ha. Hi everybody.
It's me. Katie source is so much wrong
sound. Yeah.
So you can get a clear picture along with Jonathan felt house.
Who were super grateful for Angie was trying to make
Jonathan's job easier and right off the bat.
I'm being personally attacked go to, hey, Jonathan, Jonathan if
you're hearing this, you might have to subtract five seconds
from Allah to all the time stamps.
I'm kidding. I'll let you know in the email
that you're about to see after this.
Anyways, hi everybody. I'm here goood that's Kate.
The Soros and we're here to talk about ADHD burn out today.
How do you feel about this topic?
Katie? What emotions, do you feel in
your heart? Do you want the honest answer?
Like, just right off the bat. Yes, No, I want you to lie on
the but I want you to make everything up.
Of course it would tread anger and resentment.
Real dad is what I feel. What do you feel like us dread
concerning what and resentment at what?
Well mind, read that. I have to continue sitting in
the squeaky squeaky chair. I got to be for you.
Ready for this, on the podcast live action.
That's really good. Good job.
You really totally worked. It works perfectly too.
Because I don't, I just such like a big topic, I think.
Is the first part is that? I just, I just genuinely, don't,
I don't even know where to begin on this one.
That's what, that's what I have to say.
Yeah, I guess to. I'm all right.
When I think of burnout, I also think I'm what immediately comes
out for me is the concept of hyper focus and I hear from a
lot of people, I suspect you do to that.
They think of hyper-focus as being like a bad thing because
if they think of it as sort of like a failure or a failure to
continue, like doing the thing, you know, that they got
hyper-focused on a painting session or something like that
or or have you're fixated on painting in general or something
and then they burn out on it, they feel and I don't mean just
say them and don't belong. I also feel this like it
sometimes feels like a failure to like continue to do the thing
because if you have ADHD and you know you have ADHD you had for a
while you start to notice that the pattern of like, oh I'll get
really into something and then it completely not care about it
anymore. And okay, I guess over the
years, I try to like I try to, can I say I start to think that
like the goal is just to finish or to do it for long periods of
time. But I don't think that's the
case. And so anyways, when I think of
burnout and like the anger that I felt, Feel when I get burnt
out on stuff it's I guess kind of concerning that there's a
ukulele on the floor. K Darius.
That's okay. Well, here's here's the thing.
I feel like we need to Define what burnout means to us because
I think I think we're thinking about two different things.
Really? Yes.
Based on everything you just said, I think that Do I need to
be closer? Thank you though.
That I have a little wimpy voice.
It's okay. Wimpy wimpy boys.
Yeah. What is what is, what is burnout
mean to you? Well, for me like burnout is
like over is about overextension.
It's about like I'm going to take on 57 different hobbies and
27 different activities and throw myself like heart and soul
into like everything that I do and then ultimately become like
Exhausted and overworked and over Spence and bird out that.
That is what because that is, that is chronically a problem in
my life, is the over-committing and the over stretching myself
and the like I'm going to be involved in every activity.
Take that ha, ha ha ha, you know what I mean?
Yes. Yeah I know which me, I think
what you can you will you do a thing where your projects and
almost I don't want to see her. I purposes but you're the things
that you're applying yourself to are very diverse.
They're like all over the place. Yeah and I think like for me
mine are generally more precise like I'll go really hard on one
project for like a week and then read out from that whereas it's
interesting. I think you burn out from
magnitude. Let me not know from from
quantity as well as magnitude which is not to say that you're
the things that you do in one of our all are smaller in magnitude
and you know, the one thing that I might have to focus on but it
but I just I just think it's interesting to bring up that
your the things that you group, they're not from our our diverse
I suppose. Yeah.
Well for me like burnout is different than getting bored of
something I think that's I think that's maybe because to me it
sounds like you're talking about like, hyper focusing on.
Like an activity or something until you're done with it.
Yes. No, no.
Not necessarily. I do think we're slightly
talking about different things. Yeah.
I feel like we're talking about different thing was so sorry and
you want to elaborate more what you think?
Well, no. Like I'm just, he's like, I'm
just thinking about burnout more in terms of like just like the,
like the exhaustion of Focus and attention, and the stuff that
you have to get done and like, for me my bad habit, is that,
you know, if my, how do I put this, you know, if you're, if
you're looking at, if you're looking at my ability to do
stuff on like a line graph or something, there's like a point
where it's like, okay, you should stop here.
Like this is enough stuff, you've got enough going on, you
don't need this extra stuff. But I go.
But what if I went like Five Points past that and just
completely over stressed and overworked and overcommitted
myself and then, and so, for me, like, that's where like the
burnout comes from, it's not like in conversation with like,
just like the amount of like energy and spoons that I spend
just like existing every day. It's less about like the one
thing and it's more of like the everything does that make the
sense? Yeah.
Totally. Do you think so when you say
Like you. Well, I'll put you reach a point
where you should stop it. Then you push, you know, Five
Points past that. Do you think I don't want to?
I don't want to put any like, fault, or blame on you or make
this sound. Like I'm accusing you of
anything. But do you think your do you
think you're noticing that you're hitting that limit and
deciding to push past it? Or do you think you haven't
reached that limit yet? And you're like, no, I got more
in me, I'm gonna keep going. Um, both I think that I mean
because like one of the things that I've started noticing about
my ADHD is it sort of like sort of like reflecting a little bit
more? Is that?
I like if it's not a crisis it's not going to get done.
And so burnout is a really great way of artificially creating
crisis. Because like, if you keep
yourself constantly stressed out all the time, then everything is
a crisis until you can get everything done, huh?
Yeah. That's weirdly clever.
Yeah, do you think it's super unhealthy?
This yeah. I mean, yeah, I don't I don't
advocate for it but it's very, it's very, it's very useful.
In terms of like that grad school like everybody goes.
Well how did you get through grad school?
And I'm like, oh well because while I was going to grad
school, I was also running a separate feeder company at
night. And I was also in charge of all
of the graphic design and I was in charge of all the program
photography and I ran the costume shop.
And I made all of the Costumes and I directed three shows.
And I was in every project that anybody did.
Wow, that was my strategy of getting through grad school was
over committing myself so hard, that everything was a crisis.
So then I would get everything done.
Wow, that's how I did it. I mean, that totally tracks with
certain studies, done about ADHD and focus.
If the stakes are higher, if there's more, holy shit going
on. Yeah, you're more likely to be
able to do the thing ya I've ever seen.
There's a TED Talk. I think the Is tips from a
master procrastinator and I remember I saw this Ted Talk and
I was like, I procrastinated how come he gets a TED talk?
Like, I want to do that Richard Saul wurman.
Give me to talk what, he drew this analogy, where he's like,
the inside of procrastinators brain.
Is you didn't specifically mention procrastination, but
like I think it ties in the inside of a progressive, his
brain. He's like it looks like this and
he showed he puts up this little image and it's like a hastily
drawn. Gone like like head.
And then the in the brain cavity, there's a tree in a
monkey and he's like it's very scientifically accurate and it
gets a big laugh and I was like I was fine and he basically says
this monkey is the instant gratification monkey.
This monkey is what drives my brain.
The majority of the time, no matter what I have to do this
monkey is generally at the house and he says, however as a
deadline approaches as I approached like I have the
minimum possible amount of And to do the thing once the
deadline is approaching and it's like, holy shit and crunch time.
Hence, he goes, then this guy comes out and there's like a big
hastily drum Mark or a monster like drawn in crayon with big
teeth. He's like this is the Panic
monster. The monkey is terrified of the
panic monster. So the Panic monster comes out,
the monkey goes away in the monkey, like scurries up the
tree because now, the Panic monster is that is at the helm
and this is when I do all of the things that I've ever done is in
this Panic monster mode, and I thought that was a really apt
analogy, because I'm very much That way it's like nothing.
I can't I can't reach the level of simulation or interested in
something until you'd like you said it until there is Crisis.
And so that totally which tracks with again with tracks, which a
number of different studies about ADHD concerning
performance and and what was usually generally referred to as
stress but like how much stimulus has to be going on in
order to perform at a certain level and it sounds like the way
that you did that was it works I guess.
I mean I mean yeah it was incredibly effective District.
Bolted in massive burn out. After the fact is just kind of
thing is acceptable. I mean, you're keeping the the
Panic monster around. Yeah.
In order to get things done, I mean, I think I like yeah, like
I just kept going until I couldn't anymore.
You know what what happened to once you couldn't anymore.
Like what did that look like? This is sitting cross-legged in
a gamer chair. I mean, I mean for me, like
burnout is weird because like, like, oh boy, we're supposed
we're going to get so podcast therapy for a second.
Like, it's my thing is, like, I and I know this about myself,
this isn't like a revelation, but, like, I invest my
self-worth, my self-esteem and my satisfaction in being
productive and like doing stuff and like, if I'm not doing Doing
stuff that I am profoundly uncomfortable so in conversation
with like but what if everything is a crisis all the time.
So I can get stuff done. That means that my the more
crisis that is happening. The more stress the more
pressure that I put on myself the more productive I am because
that is best thing. So it becomes a vicious cycle
where when I get to the point of burnout, I'm not being
productive. - and then I get upset and frustrated and angry
at myself because like I could be doing so much more and I know
that I can do more because I know what I am capable of doing
in the moments where like the Panic monster shows up.
And so if I'm not at that level of Work and investment all the
time. Then I'm like, well fuck.
So my solution to burnout is to find something else to burn
myself out on. That's, I just, I just, I just
go from burnout to burrow, huh? Is this is not healthy.
I want to be very clear like I'm not advocating for this.
This is not like a solution. I'm putting forward, I am just
In This Moment. Being honest about my
experience. Because I feel like so often we
have these conversations about like ADHD it sort of like the
stuff that we can't do and like I'm the exact opposite.
Like I am a high achieving person with ADHD and so if I'm
not achieving highly, that's where I start to find her like
like the profound uncomfortability of that's not
going to work, but like A profound feeling of of being
uncomfortable when I'm not being actively productive is honestly
I would rather just be burned out all the time then have to
sit in the feeling of not feeling like I'm being
productive. Hmm.
Huh. Are there any other things are
there any other circumstances, I suppose that also caused that
same kind of? I don't know, State like the
Panic monster thing but are there any other things that have
happened? Any other circumstances that
have caused you to be in that like go mode of productivity
without having just an ungodly quantity of stuff on your plate?
I genuinely don't understand the question.
It was a very Pro rata question question.
I just asked well I guess I mean, I guess I mean I like I
totally understand the need to have a lot of stimulus e stuff
going on having just a massive quantity of it going on in order
to get anything done but I think there's a healthier way of
replicating. Those that sure without having
to actually cram your plate full of every possible.
Checked. And so like, for me, having a
deadline is really helpful to me, like, it'll even though
with, you know, the stimulus, then comes from the the time
that I have in order to get something done rather than the
quantity of things that I have to get done.
So I'm curious if like, does working on a deadline, get you
into that same productivity mode, does, you know, working in
a loud Place. Have you found anything else?
That's simulates in some ways that sense of immediacy.
The answer is no, it's fine. Suddenly cries.
I mean I think it's one of the reasons why I became a stage
manager was because even if like I'm only doing one thing there,
I mean as the same but like the Renaissance Festival is one of
the reasons why I love that job was because technically
speaking, the only thing I was doing that day was going to work
but going to work meant, putting out.
Sometimes a literal actual fires all day long, dealing with
small, emergencies minor emergencies, like that kind of
thing. But in a way to where like I
could sort of like amplifier, If I the stress quotient by
deciding that like is they're saying, okay, well, like none of
these things are earth-shattering emergencies
because like the juggler can't find the ball, you know what
it's like, but, like artificially, creating that sort
of like, I have to solve all of these problems right now.
In this moment immediately made me more productive.
So result, it resulted in massive amounts of burnout
because like, I don't know what to do with myself, if I'm not
Being productive and so like it's weird because sometimes I
do take breaks like I said and I'll, you know, like we watch
slings and arrows or like 30 Rock or whatever.
Like it's not like in those moments, I'm like, actively like
panicking, but I'm not as comfortable as I would be, if I
was like making something or like doing something, you know.
I mean I do a lot of multitasking anyway but hmm, I
don't know, I don't I have no idea what he's talking about.
No I mean I am because I was like, okay.
So what about you though? Because I feel like you have a
very different relationship and Look at different relationship
and reaction to Brown. Yeah, my burnout is I guess it
can to mental exhaustion. In some ways, we're like
nothing. I was has I at any given time, I
have an idea for a board game that I want to be working on an
idea for a coffee stirrer models, and I want to be working
on. I have an idea for music that I
want to write. I have an idea for ways.
I want to arrange my house projects.
I want to do ways to organize my sock drawer, like all of those
things, you know, I think part of this, one of the effects of
an ADHD brain being so craving stimulus.
So always is I would I feel that I always try to squeeze as much
stimulus out of everything that I possibly can which is often
very nice because I'll be at work doing you know a menial
task which is really boring but I need to squeeze every ounce of
dopamine and interest out of this thing that I can.
So I'll try to perfect my onion, cutting technique or perfect.
The way. I'm see how many cherry tomatoes
I can cut it once. Like I have to just pull as much
information out of the thing to just not be bored.
And similarly, that's just how I The, when I'm every whenever I'm
awake, I need to be extracting shit.
I find interesting out of stuff. And what that often leads to is
having an immense amount of ideas that I want to pursue
that. I know I'm most the vast
majority of which I'm not going to be able to pursue, I'm likely
not going to be able to to make the board game and and write the
symphony and have a successful by guests and do all those
things and the burnout comes from the enormity of that.
And I'll get like five percent done on one thing and I'll get
some notes scribbled down on the amount on another thing which is
which is satisfying. But then over the years looking
back, I have notebooks and notebook and some notebooks full
of half ideas and projects that have been half finished.
And so, I'll Justice, I'll assume.
I'll but it generally looks like is all assumed many projects.
I'll start scribbling down ideas for something, I'll start
brainstorming for something and the majority of them.
I forget. So I'm constantly sort of losing
my think I made a video about this little while ago that
people with ADHD or sometimes in, like a constant state of
mourning for all the things that they've forgotten.
And so, as I'm having ideas for, you know, that would be an
interesting shot for a movie. Like I should go out back and
Try to get it on my iPhone or whatever all those little ideas
that you know, I like I come up with to try to just a simulated
all the time. I'm aware that the majority of
those that deny all times. Those are going away, those are
falling off the boat and being left behind.
And there's like a sense of mourning for that.
And so after a while, if I have like they'll be like a couple
months where I'm just like constantly just trying to think
of projects and like trying to be not bored then I'll sort of
look back. I think of it as like things.
Falling off a boat. So look back in the wake of the
boat and they're just ideas and projects just bobbing towards
the horizon, never to be seen again.
And that makes me really fucking sad.
And then I'm like, why? If I'm not going to remember
that, I even started any of these things.
Why would I? And then I fucking burn out hard
and I'm like, why would I ever do anything?
Just not going to ever start anything.
Your definition of burnout is so fundamentally different than
mine that I'm having an accept like a genuinely like difficult
time. Wrapping my head around what?
And I think this is okay, it's just really funny like I thought
we were going to be talking about something completely
different really. Well, how do you think?
Because I think both of our sayings of burnout have to do
with revving, really hard? Yeah.
And then that's just not being able to revenue more.
Yeah. And I think Willie well I think
my burnout comes not from not being able to rev anymore.
Yeah, it comes. Comes from my frustration with
the amount that I'm revving is clearly just all for naught God.
Why would I be yeah, thinking so hard all the time or if I'm just
going to forget most of them or whatever.
Will you also? So I think a really interesting
maybe a way to get to the bottom of this if we didn't need to but
it's like you when you went to school for music.
Yeah. Do you feel like you burned out
on playing classical guitar? Is that hope like like it?
because like because like I think that's maybe the
difference is like Because I know your story, you told me the
story of like, you know, why you quit and to me, that is my
definition of burnout. Hmm.
Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
So why? I quit sort of being?
It's because you were burned out, right?
I mean, I guess I see what you're saying.
I think so just for context and we listening to this episode.
If you haven't seen the other episodes, I went to this
boarding school in high school for classical music.
I played classical guitar, and then quit music immediately
after graduating. And my relationship to music is
never quite been the same. I I think well, I, when I say, I
quit classical guitar, Because well I mean for an enormity of
reasons if you know listen to music episode, everyone trying
to remember some of them but I think it was similar in that.
No amount of effort was going to be enough to do the thing that I
felt was The Only Thing Worth doing which is becoming
excellent at Guitar largely because of my ADHD, I didn't
think about at the time although I technically had been
diagnosed. I never thought about ADHD
actually as a thing until a couple years ago but I couldn't
do the things that I needed to do.
I couldn't, you know, if I sat in a chair and warmed up for an
hour, I mean my brain was the LG I was thinking is like if you
were to throw a shoe and a dryer like I'm spinning around.
Yeah, it gets unbalanced. You go shoot, shoot, shoot,
shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, Richard, liked it.
That's what it feels like when I have just sit and focus on
nothing so often unless it's something it really stimulates.
Yeah. But anyways it just it just felt
like I was right again like the things falling off the boat.
Like as I was learning new skills was caught with classical
guitar. I wasn't practicing other ones
because I forgot that I had to practice them and they would
just fall to Chef and so after you Of like ADHD swinging at
this thing, I got pretty decent but I knew that lifestyle was
someone I could maintain Nora and I didn't I liked whether or
not I wanted to maintain it was sort of secondary.
I think, I mean at the time I thought I really wanted to but
or I could but I didn't want to but looking back, I really want
it to look good. Yeah.
And that was weird. But in what ways do you think
that that sort of burnout was is similar to your death?
Mission for an hour. Well, I think it's the sort of
quest for absolute perfection and all things.
If you're not the best, it's not worth your time.
Because that's the thing that like I really struggle with like
in terms of burnout is like it's not just like I have to take on
12 different projects, it's like they have to be the best version
of that product product project or whatever anything that I'm
trying to make the product. And if it's not then like I'm a
failure and it's taken me years to like even realize that like,
that's how I think about it and then like and I've spent a lot
more time working on it and I'm still not like, in any way close
to like solving that problem because I still feel that way
like I think we talked about this a little bit on the first
cooking episode but it's like if I'm going to make chocolate chip
cookies, I expect those chocolate chip cookies to be the
best chocolate. He's Eve ever had in your entire
life and if they aren't, then I'm a failure and it wasn't
worth my time. And so, then I think that's
where like burnout can kind of start to like reroute that
feeling of like I've exhausted myself and I spent all this time
and for what? For nothing except that the
nothing is very sort of like, Subjective.
You know what I mean? Yeah, well because it sounds
like, so, based on what you said, it sounds like some of
your burnout. Excuse me.
Some of your brother has to do with the quantity of projects.
You know, you committed in grad school, you know, you committed
every project over here and you're also running shows after,
you know at night, but then also each individual one of those
projects you wanted to do perfectly had to be.
They had to be excellent. Yes.
How much of your burnout do you think?
Or how much which of those do you think contributed more to
your the Perfection or the quantity?
I mean I can't separate the two that's the thing for me like
that's one of the hardest things is like even I mean, I'm so
burned out right now. Like, I like, I know that I am.
Like, I'm really struggling with depression, I'm like
dissociated, like half the time. Like, I'm just like, I've no
idea what's going on. I'm just constantly losing track
of time and dates and emails obligations, and all that kind
of stuff. And it's because, like, I'm I
know that I'm just like profoundly burned out but if I
stop The momentum goes away, the interest wanes, and all of the
sudden, you know, oh, we don't have to do a podcast this week,
guess we can also skip next week, like, you know, do we
really need to do Tuesday and Thursday and then like, because
that's the thing. It's like the minute that I give
myself permission to like Break. I'm not being productive and
it's not perfect. So, what's the point?
Hmm. Healthy I'm sorry sweetheart.
I mean it's I mean it's fine. It's just like it's best that on
being a part of Connecticut like what's also mea it.
Brings me back to the to the notion.
The idea that the truth that ADHD is a disorder of
Regulation. Yeah.
Of our executive functions and so it's kind of interesting that
Your existing in a place where your your, I guess your, your
energy and your mind and your your spoons are being spent a
lot and frequently doing many things very well, might add if
that helps her sit but you're very good at stuff in general
and it doesn't seem like that's very regulated.
It seems like that's compulsive and Seems like perhaps what
you're worried about is if you were to break that streak of
just going all the time and a prank Leon Regulators way.
That you would then on regulate in the opposite direction that
all the sudden you're not doing anything would become an
unregulated unmitigated streak. Yeah.
So you can you be doing everything all the time but it
any break from? That is a chance to slip over
the opposite where you're doing nothing ever.
Yes, I do not think it dog all-or-nothing thinking, what do
you think? What do you think the middle
Zone there would look like for you?
I'm not trying to, it's too like, solve your.
But I'm just, I'm just a will try to pick your brain a little
bit. Little bit that brand pain.
I mean, I think it would it. I mean, the answer is very
simple, it's finding a balance it's saying, okay.
I don't have to spend, you know, I don't have to work 14 hours a
day, like that's silly. You don't have to accept it
like, It's weird because like one of the things that I really
deal with and this is I think like a profound sort of, it's
like symptomatic of my neurodiversity as a whole, but
it's like, if something works. It works for a reason even if
it's incredibly unhealthy. And so, like, in my head, I have
worked so hard non-stop for almost to like, well, like a
year and a half at this point on this, I have worked every single
day I have gotten and maybe six hours of sleep the family lucky
like I'm working 12 to 14 hours a day every single day ominous
and so like if I stop That's different than what I've been
doing before and what I'm doing. What I have been doing before is
working because like, I am. I am I'm building this sort of
like success and defining the success on my own terms.
And so if I stop doing it and I change it, if I change the
routine, if I change the pattern, if I change what I'm
doing then it's not going to work is good.
Because what is a, what is working is what I'm doing.
Yeah, I guess I'm maybe it was that yeah credibly stupid what?
Like that's like what my brain says my.
But like I mean it's the same thing where it's like factually
I know. But it probably does not make a
single God damn bit of difference.
If I post a video at like 10:30 or 11:00 every look, it's a half
hour difference. The one I first started posting
tick-tocks, I would post them every morning at like 10:30 and
so my brain. Rain says, you have to keep
posting a video at 10:30 or like your morning videos are going to
be like a hit or whatever. Congratulations.
You did it. We made it to the middle of the
episode. Okay, buddy.
Boom, proud of you. Consider maybe having a glass of
water. Yeah, you know, to celebrate
this, incredible accomplishment, maybe consider getting a pet
goldfish to, you could consider that you could go to a carnival.
You could win one win one on the hook, very low next or you could
get one from a wizard in a duel. Can also do that.
Just make sure that you're going to take care of the little guys,
take care. Little Fishies true.
They can get really big if you give them a big big tank.
Speaking of all Decatur room in your house to your new goldfish
when we just made so many roommates man.
Sorry roommate you have to leave.
I have a goldfish and I'm turning this whole room into an
aquarium. And speaking of that, did you
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Transitions. So, what I think I'm trying to
say is that Burn outcomes. Also partially from the
maintenance of that system because structure is boring.
Continuity is boring doing the same thing every day for my ADHD
is exhausting boring. And it's almost a think more
exhausting than just doing everything like sort of
willy-nilly with no order because now not only am I
burning myself out in terms of the It's like abject quest for
perfectionism but also just trying to stick to that schedule
because I do know I'm not good with sticking to a schedule, but
sticking to a schedule is what is creating the success.
So it's become this very like like convoluted and knotted up
sort of like weird logic system in my brain where I'm trying to
do the same thing everyday. But what I'm trying to do is
like achieve an unobtainable level of perfection also
sticking to the same. Like schedule, which is also
exhausting for my ADHD, which is making everything worse and
resulting in more burnout. Which is making me hold tighter
to those structures, etc. Etc, etc.
Mmm. Yeah, I think.
This is me again. Not trying to generalize too
much but I think it's pretty common that the 80s.
You brain lacks or wants for structure and wants for
executive functions, so much. That the thing, the external
things that seem to provide that for us become super precious.
It's almost like a kind of feels like, you know, if you own a
nice thing that you couldn't make yourself, you know, like,
for example, if I I didn't or couldn't fix you if I broke a
chair or something like that, I could prepare the chair.
If it's like, I don't have anything to eat.
I can throw something together with the stuff that I have, but
like, if my car breaks down, I have no idea how to fix cars.
Yeah. So the people who can fix cars
or any circumstance that causes my car to be fixed is like magic
in there in extremely valuable life.
So I'm so grateful to people who know how to fix cars because I
can't do it. So, similarly, any time a
Structure is overlaid or any time the question of what should
I be doing right now? Is answered objectively and
perhaps externally becomes really valuable because the
question of should I be working right now?
If the answer of maybe is a lot more difficult to think about
than the answer of. Yes, because if the answer is, I
should have you working right now.
Yes, that's much more simple than having to consider whether
or not you should actually take a break.
But similarly, and I experienced this problem is, should I be
working right now? Know, is, is I don't want to say
similarly, satisfying, because they lead to very different
things. You know, whether I end up
working or adapt, not working, but they put my brain equally at
rest because I don't have to decide.
Side. Does that make sense?
It's kind of a it's a strange thing.
I'm deeply interested. I mean I'm fascinated by the
fact that your brain tells you know you don't need to be
working right now. Well no it's not that my brain.
How do I learn that skill? Well it's sort of I guess the
question is in a surly should I be working?
Its am I going to work right now?
And for example if I'm in a kitchen if I'm in am working in
a profession location. No.
Ask you no matter how disgusting or unpleasant is something that
I don't want to do. I don't care.
Cleaning, the toilets is the same as julienning.
Onions is the same as taking out the trash and she ain't
cleaning. It doesn't matter because I know
whatever the chef asked me to do is what I am to do, right?
And there's no mental, wait on me to decide what I have to be
doing right now. Somebody else tells me what to
do. This is a big perhaps a bit
related to our spicy content. You want to go back and listen
to the king. Episode.
But the idea that I don't have to make that decision,
similarly, like, you know, if I am really sick and can't go to
work. I simply I feel that same sense
of ease because there's no decision to be made.
I can't go to work because I'm sick.
So the thing that's that burns me out really hard is having to
decide what to do with my time all the time and it sounds like
for you, perhaps the idea of just should I be working?
Yes. Am I going to work here?
Yes. Like you don't have it rids.
You of the burden of having to decide what you're going to do
all the time. You just am I going to work?
Yes, I am and since We lack executive functions because we
have ADHD. We know that once we start
playing that game and trying to assemble our own priorities,
we're just going to fucking spin.
I mean, I don't want to say, we like I'm totally speaking for
you, that's okay. But for me once I know that once
it enters my Arena and I get to decide what I should be doing
right now. At should I be working or should
I be taking a break? My bright.
That's hurts. It hurts.
It hurts a lot. Whereas I'd like very much
crave. Just, yes, you should.
This is what you are to do right now.
And whether or not I like, enjoy the task, or whatever is
relevant at that point, because I know that I'm doing them
spending my time in the way that I'm supposed quote, unquote,
supposed to be spending my time. So, do you know what it I guess
to turn this into a question. Do you think?
Your need to be constantly productive is in a way.
How do I say this? Is your need to be constantly
productive way of use simplifying.
The question of, what should I be doing right now?
I mean, first off, I didn't come here to me personally, attacked
second, I think. Yeah.
But I think like, I mean, I guess my answer is like,
probably, but I think it's also like It's tough.
Because Be over extension is also like, it's not just should
I be working right now because they're still like the choice of
like, you know, I've got five different sewing projects going
on and like, I also want to, like, learn how to bake bread or
like, whatever the thing is, you know what I mean?
So, it's not just like, oh, I'm observing myself of having to
make a choice because I had to choose like, what am I going to
work on? But I think that's where like,
then like the structure comes in of like, okay, well, it's What
am I doing 10:30 or 11 or like whatever?
But I don't I don't know like that part, it's harder to like
honestly I don't know if I have any answers because like I think
like maybe I'm using I'm using the like number of things that I
do to like sort of create a de facto schedule.
So like I just know where I'm going to be all the time because
it's like okay I have this at 2:30 in this is 3, this is 345
and this is 4 and this is double booked it for.
So I'm going to have to line and emailed to you know like
Anything. But I don't like, I don't know
because I guess like I don't I don't think about it in terms of
choice. Like I joke a lot about like you
know, the like all. I don't want to say it that way.
Like I mean I like I think I make like a lot of jokes about
like being told what to do and in terms of like a kink context
because like I think you're right, like the elimination of
choice is often much simpler but Even even in those spicy
circumstances, they're still part of me that's like, but I am
going to do the best fucking job, at whatever the thing is.
And so like that mindset is still with me.
It's just eliminating. The like what am I supposed to
be doing right now? So, I don't know if it's like, I
don't know that was like 10 minutes of an audience her, I'm
so sorry. Well because I think I'm also
realizing I'm starting a lot of my talking with, for me like I'm
able to support because I think like honestly like this is, this
is a thing where I think we actually have like, we're
agreeing with each other, but I think we actually have like,
kind of different views on it. Yeah.
I mean you work so fucking hard which and I'm too just as it
just. I'm saying that objectively got
on my saying it's good or bad or what.
I'm just saying you do and I think how so much of my ADD ADHD
burn out when I burn out when I just go, okay, enough of all the
Cheese's like I need to sit in a dark room and stare at a wall.
So much of that comes from me having to decide how to spend my
time. So a lot of the times when I
don't do a thing where I'm like, 'oh or you know, if I have an
idea for like, oh dude, I could totally right, you know, a death
metal song based on Rachmaninoff or something like that.
I think it's a great idea. The excellent if I start if I
decide. Okay, I'm going to write that in
some weird way. In my head, I feel like oh I'm
setting the precedent now that I am going to work on the ideas
that I have and that sort of scares me because it's easier to
just to just be like to just have an idea and go up.
Fuck it like nope. I'm just going to throw it away.
Then to set the precedent my own brain that I'm capable of making
the decision to work on it. Whereas if somebody just comes
Up and goes like, no, this is what you're doing now.
Like I would happily do it that. But what if I decide for myself?
I'm almost afraid of the control that I have.
I'm afraid of like oh shit. Like I have agency over how I
spend my time that's terrifying. And then I burn out on, just a
little all the possibilities that emerge from that.
Like I could wake up really early tomorrow I could and all
of a sudden I like start constructing perfect versions of
myself and it scares the fuck out of me and it burns me out so
I'll like burning out. Out for me is is related to the
amount of things that I'm doing or the amount of time I spend
being quote, unquote productive, but the friction in the heat
comes from the weight of having to make so many decisions about
how to spend my time and I who and that really scares the shit
out of me. Do you think that you are
frightened by your own potential?
Yeah. Our greatest fear is not that we
are inadequate. So we are powerful beyond all
measure. Yeah, I know.
Absolutely. I mean, Yeah, absolutely.
I think and I think you have this too and I think you do
listener have those as well with with something. a lot of times
in the pursuit of perfection, you end up being pretty good, it
ends up whatever the thing you're doing is ends up, being
pretty good by your standards, at least and it's almost like,
It's not what I'm trying. That's almost like the The
Tick-Tock algorithm occasionally just giving you a, here's a
million views, keep making gaming content.
You know, like, it will give you that hit.
I think. Generally people are pretty
confident at like at least one thing, everybody has something
that they can do very well. Most people have you know
multiple you know everybody's got a singer, they can do very
well and In the pursuit of many projects, doing many things, and
trying to do them all perfectly. Every once in a while, you'll
get that dopamine hit of having done a thing and being like,
fuck, that's really good. That's excellent.
Yeah. And that scares the shit out of
ya because then, who knows what of those ideas that I'm
constantly like forgetting who knows?
Which of those ideas would have been an excellent final product
if only I took the initiative to work on it or got in a bed
earlier, whatever I'm getting down.
So for the time and that is exhausting to me, the thought
that like holy shit, like I've done enough things and enough of
them have turned out pretty good.
That any given thing, I think of has the potential to actually be
pretty good. And for that reason, whenever
when the ideas are coming in and then, going out and coming and
there's big revolving, door of like I should do this.
No way this. No, wait, this, no, wait.
This each one of those. It's, it's, the feeling is a
feeling of morning is Is as ideas fade from my memory.
That could have been a massively awesome thing that is now fading
away. So, every idea that I have, I
can either do it and engage with it in a real way and it'll turn
out. However, it turns out or I can
leave it perfect and forget about it.
And I don't know, as I make sense but that's that
contributes to my brown, a lot, just the idea that holy shit.
If I could just, if I could just grab onto any one of these
fucking ideas and just goddamn do it, who knows what could
happen. But I don't know, I, but there's
just so they're just flowing in all the time.
There's so many options for how you can spend your time, in the
things you can make and people you can meet him.
It's just the enormity of that of all those possibilities and
makes my brain hot and it hurts. so anyways, anytime somebody's
like, Cleaning, toilets, that's what you should be doing right
now or sweeping the thing. That's what you should be doing
right now. Then it's like cool.
Like it's not up to me, you know, whatever happens is not on
me. Sure I could be writing a
symphony right but like I'm not and that's not my fault.
It's not on me. Yeah.
You know but then the agency of like Anyways, I guess I'm
constantly viewing the birth and death of ideas just over and
over and over and over and over again.
Yeah, I know. It's like just the feeling that
comes from that. I think the feeling that I think
that feeling is, is related to. It's one of the ingredients that
we still my bro. No, yeah, no, that makes, that
makes total sense. I think there's all the while
there are things to sort of like coming to existence and then
like dying in front of me is like, I mean it was in Boston.
I was I don't even get to see them die.
I just don't know that they just I forgot them.
Yeah you know I probably had some idea this morning I was
like oh my God she totally I don't know what ever try to
build a Hut out of the leaves out or whatever, but just, I
don't know, they're just gone. Yeah, that's all it is.
It's a massive pile of dead ideas, just lying around. it's
interesting that you talk about, Like not starting to avoid that.
You know what I mean? Like I only, I think maybe
that's like the difference between you and I dear Eric, is
that I have never failed at anything.
I have tried and I know, hmm, like I'm learning calculus 2:00
in the morning now because I got mad that I can't do math.
And so I've just decided to range, learn math when I should
be sleeping, I have a pile of math textbooks by my bed.
Now that's fucking weird. Eric, it's bearded.
I do that. But like, and it sounds so
self-indulgent to be like, I have I've really never failed at
anything that I've tried, but like, I know that about myself.
Like I know that I'm adapt. I know that I'm good at things,
and I know that if I'm not good at things using pure agents
fight, I will get good enough at the thing to, like, wrap my mind
around. It and understand it.
And I think that is, I think, like, for we like, we have the
exact opposite thing. Like rather than let anything
go. I will do it.
I will do it successfully, so I get that.
Like, haha, ADHD. You will not take this idea for
me, and you will not take that idea for maybe you will not take
anything for me because I refused.
But my refusal is about doing, but because I have to be perfect
about it, and because it has to be like, the best best thing
that is where my browser is that I refuse.
Like, I'd like the I go the complete opposite direction and
then not doing, I tried and attempt to do every single one.
Hmm, that's the difference between you and I think, I think
I've worked that out. Yeah, another, but they went
along that same vein I think is, you know, when you so much of
this episode of just, I was spent just trying not to comport
myself. But when you realize that you
were pretty smart, you know, in school your response to that, I
think was holy shit. I'm really smart and like just
good at stuff. So if I just try really hard, I
could be a Fucking god, like I could be a successful this and
that and the other. And indeed, you could indeed you
did. Or as for me, I realize like oh
fuck, like I'm pretty smart. Like this is actually salt seems
a lot easier for me than this is for everybody else.
That means I could try like 10% and still be fine.
That's what I did is I was like oh okay.
That means I can do less and still be just the same as
everybody else where he was like, oh, if I try as hard as
everybody else, I'm going to be a lot better than them.
And then keep doing that eventually, working much harder
than everybody else. Really think that that, that is
a very fundamental, not divide, but difference between you and
me, and I think we're both. I think we're both healthy for
each other in a lot of ways. Like I try, I think I get you to
relax more and to just be like, hey, it's okay, just let it go
more and you get me to, you know, Do things.
I think you're wrong about one thing.
What's that is that? I never got to the point where I
was like and if I work really hard, I will be a fucking God
because I never, I never get that good at anything because
I'm always I'm always going on to the next thing.
And that's why I think that's where I like, I implicitly
understand what you're talking about because like, I, I'm very
good at a lot of things, but I'm not going to anything and I feel
that pain a lot. And it's because my ADHD never
will be choose. I always wanted to find the next
thing I was always going on to the next type of fixation.
So like I like weird fact about me, I don't think we've talked
about this before but like I love cake decorating.
Yeah, fun. I'm good at it.
I'm not. I by no means great.
And there's a big gap between being okay, decorating cakes and
being like amazing at it. But it's because like I never
like I had the hyper fixation, I got good enough at it to like do
the one good thing and then like I've moved on and so like For
me, I never had that. Like, and if I keep working,
ultimately, I will reach, you know, God level because
everybody started expecting God level from.
And so if I delivered anything less than God level, if I
delivered anything less than Perfection, then I would get in
trouble or I would be I would be disappointing or I would, I
would let somebody down or whatever.
And so because Like I was so visibly good at things because I
was so visibly. Like, gifted in many different
areas, the expectation began became Kate will do what?
Kate will pick up the slack cable?
Be the person who like oh you need a costume in the day.
You call Kate and because I also have promising know which also
contributes to for out like that became a whole expectation in my
life. It's like I never got to give
myself permission to go. What if you just got graded this
or like whatever? Everybody around me also also
saw it, they all saw, they all recognize that, they all noticed
it. And so the expectation just
became Kate, will give and give and give and give and give and
give and give and give and give of herself.
And then that's where like the burnout comes from was was from
that the guy was burdened with glorious purpose in terms of
like delivering on that. Expectation of being somebody
who is oftentimes very visibly very skilled at things.
And that's really hard because of hit it.
Stops being about me and like, my relationship to the sing.
It becomes my delivering for other people.
Because I want them to like me. Hmm.
Well, I like you. Thanks.
I like you, no matter what the things are, or how productive
you are, right and stuff. See you say that and my brain
instantly goes. He's lying.
Hmm, like that's not true. Like if I stop being productive
even like me anymore. Now fundamentally I think that's
probably not true. Like I think you would probably
still like me but my brain says like if I like told you tomorrow
but I don't want to do podcasts anymore.
Like you would pay be forever. Well can I can I can I speak
with Katie's brain for a Short me, that shirt.
Well, that's it, that's the end of the episode so the episode
Eric shushed my brain, I'm cured the podcast is over, thank you
all for being here. I we don't know more podcasts.
This is it. This is what am I supposed to
unser's days? Okay, I guess we'll keep the
podcast. All right saved by that.
Well hey as is now tradition. We have some new patreon It's to
think and if you're like, Hey, how do I get on into the sweet
song action? All you gotta do is you gotta go
to patreon.com/scishow and Finnick West and sign up at
whatever level feels right for you.
That's it, that's all you got to do.
And then we put your name in a song.
A song that goes a little something like this.
There we go. I'm never going to change the
chord progression. It's just this.
That's the only chord progression.
I know Kathleen, you're super cool.
And also Chelsea, you are. Similarly cool.
Oh hey. Hello it's ADHD everything.
They got a podcast to their an ADHD Tick-Tock away when the
really Don't forget about Moira, which is a really fun word to
say. Thank you, Maura and ADHD
everything and Chelsea and Kathleen for joining our
patreon. Forget I can't forget about your
ADHD off everything. Forecasting, forecasting for
kdhe everything. It's the patreon song, it's the
patreon song. It happens.
Every week and it isn't very long.
It's the Patriarchs the console. What the fuck a patreon?
Patreon motherfuck. Big tree on Patriot's.
Rips a motherfucking patreon song,
genres. Everybody.
That's it for us this week here at infinite Quest.
But hey, from all of us we really appreciate you listening.
So until next week, remember to take a drink water, maybe take
your meds, maybe you just snack, but always be kind to yourself
and remember to be kind to others and remember that we love
you. We'll see you next week.
Bye.