A lot of people think FK TS are about fitness.
And while fitness matters, you have to train, you have to be
ready to go, you have to be healthy, you have to know how to
move efficiently. Experience really matters too.
But after talking with enough people, coaching people, doing
FK TS, and spending a lot of days in the woods myself chasing
records, I think that the common trait isn't really fitness at
all. It's obsession.
You have to let this thing take over your life and be willing to
give everything because there aren't usually crowds.
If you're self supported or unsupported, you have to be very
internally motivated by what you're doing.
And The funny thing is that obsession usually shows up long
before someone ever learns what an FKT is.
So my guest today, Bob Stewart, recently set the Bent Mackay
Trail FKT, finally succeeding on his third attempt.
But one thing we didn't get into during this recording that came
out later, as we were emailing before FKTS, Bob showed he was
obsessed with things. He was obsessed with fish.
Not casually. He's seen more than 200 concerts
since the late 90s. Back then, getting tickets
wasn't like clicking on a Buy Now button to buy money orders
followed by complicated instructions, decorate envelopes
and send everything to the right place and just hope you did it
correctly. It was a process that really
doesn't make sense to outsiders. But that's what a lot of these
events are. And much like what an FKT is in
general, it's not going to make sense to people who don't get
why you would obsess about going so fast on a trail.
There's a lot of detractors out there, but that's part of the
fun in an FKT. You spend hours studying the
logistics. You obsess, test over the
details that no one cares about. Spreadsheets, packing lists,
resupply plans, weather backup plans, backup backup plans,
backup, backup, backup, backup plans.
And then you go do it and hope it pays off.
And if you're second, if you're the second fastest of all time,
no glory. And if you're the fastest,
oftentimes also no glory. But this was a really fun
conversation we had about what it's like being out there, what
these 300 ish mile FK TS entail, some sleep deprivation stories,
kind of how it goes, breaking down the bent Mackay trail
logistics. And hopefully it captures your
imagination and maybe why that's so many of you have ended up in
this weird corner of the Internet.
So if you want to support the show, free outside podcast,
anywhere you listen, give it five stars, subscribe.
We're also on YouTube. I think we're going to try to
put out the FKT film on the Appalachian Trail sometime in
July, maybe early July, maybe mid-july.
We'll see how the birthday party for our country goes.
We don't want to really over shadow that with our release.
But anyways, thank you for being here.
The show is brought to you by John GJANJ. i.com use code free
outside for 10% off. I'm taking like 2, we'll call
them outfits on my month long pilgrimage to Europe to do some
hiking and run a trail. And I'm going to take the Snappy
Trekker shirt because it'll look casual and formal at the same
time, so it really rides that sweet spot.
The snakeskin print is my favorite.
And also, this is brought to you by Garage Grown Gear, Garage
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and I'll just have a good time out there.
OK, here is my conversation with Bob Stewart.
Today we're hoping to learn something about Bob.
We have Bob Stewart here, fresh off setting the Benton Mackay
Trail. FKT after this was your third
time on it, right? Third attempt, third time.
Yeah. And you have you have a bunch of
other FK TS. I think you just said like 2000
miles of FK TS. But Panhote Trail, Superior
Hiking Trail, which I've failed at, so kudos there.
Mid State Trail, PA, Appalachian Trail, number of stuff on here.
But how does it? Does it feel special that you
tried the Ben Mackay trail two other times and then got it this
time? Does that one feel a little more
special than the other? FK TS.
It definitely does it, it feels special, but it also definitely
felt the scariest of all my FK TS that I've ever done, which is
kind of wild that I I knew what I was getting into, but that was
also part of the reason why it was so scary.
Let's start with the two first two attempts.
What took you off the the first two times?
So the first time I made it 175 miles to Reliance, which is like
the only town that the entire trail goes through and it's the
trail is super remote. It goes through Nantahala
National Forest and I think it's Cherokee National Forest.
And so I'm used to Pennsylvania remoteness where like you're,
you're in the hills, but you're crossing a road every like 5
miles or so out in there, out on that trail, you're, you're going
like 20 miles before you'll cross the road.
You'll go 20 miles of trail, cross another road and you're in
the middle of nowhere. Yeah.
And so I got to, I got to Reliance and just before like 5
miles before I got to Reliance, I was looking at my ankle and I
noticed that it was like super swollen and I had no idea what
was going on. And, and so my ankle was like
super swollen. I had no idea what was going on,
and I've never experienced that before.
And there was no like acute injury.
It just came out of nowhere. So I got to this little general
store in reliance and I was like, I don't want to get stuck
in the middle of nowhere. I don't know what's going on
with my ankle. I don't like this.
I don't want to have to get like evacuated from, you know, the
middle of the forest. So I decided to to bail on that
one. In hindsight, I've actually had
it happen a few a few times since, but I think it's just
like edema, like just like swelling in your legs.
I've never had it happen. And I had a couple FKTS before
that. So it was, it was sort of a now
I know how to deal with it and I I expect it.
So that was the first time, then the second time, and then you.
Wanted to go, you wanted to go back like there is a motivation,
like unfinished business, so you went back #2.
It was like, I was like, am I really not going to go back and
finish this trail? I, I, I don't know.
It's just like I started it. I've already done all my
research because I do it like a ton of research, a ton of
background like mapping and route planning and prepping.
And I was kind of like, I have to go back.
I can't not. I can't quit.
Yeah. So yeah, I went back this the
next year, exactly 1 year later, and this time I made it 240
miles I think. I was about.
You're getting close. You're almost.
I know I was about 50 miles short of the end and my calves
were just like super tight. I'd never again never
experienced anything like this before.
I like they were just like knots and I was ascending.
I I went to sleep, I slept for like 3 hours, woke up, walked
like 7 miles on flat terrain. Sort of like it's like a little
Rd. Rd. walk section.
I started to ascend a like 2000 foot knob and as I was going up
like halfway, I just took a step and I felt like a pop in my
calf. And as soon as I felt that I was
like, I know it's over. I didn't know what had happened
and I ended up getting a ultrasound and it was just like
a, a muscle tear. So fortunately no like Achilles
or anything crazy like that. Yeah, wild.
OK. Those are two very real reasons.
But you've had like overall would you say you've had pretty
good luck without injuries on your other attempts on the other
trails? Was this just?
No injuries on my other on the other trails, not even like
yeah, it's I haven't even, you know, had anything minor besides
like, you know, torn up beat and blisters and toenails that are
smashed. But.
Yeah, wow. This was your.
This was your white whale that was taking you down, your
weakness. That's exactly, that's exactly
what how I referenced it, yeah. So I want to go back, what got
you into FKTS in the 1st place? Like were you a through hiker
runner? How did you even take a stab at
these? So it's funny, I like sort of
try to analyze this and try to figure out how it happened to me
because I honestly don't really know myself.
So if you want to go like way back in high school, I was a
competitive ski racer. So I went to a ski ski racing
Academy in Vermont. I'd ski like 100 and something
days a year and I was like good. But I wasn't Olympic level, but
I was skiing like six days a week doing, you know, training
six days a week. So it was a pretty intense like
physical experience. And so I was into ski racing.
So I was like, that's where like my competitiveness comes from.
And I was also really into golf in high school, so I had like 2
weird, 2 weird individual sport, yeah.
Both funneled right into FKTS, yeah.
Seriously. And so my wife, so Fast forward
many years, I met my wife in like 2010.
She got me into backpacking and I was just doing like weekend
warrior trips. I'm sort of like checking out
like, you know, just figuring out what I liked and I fell in
love with backpacking. I was like, this is super cool.
You can like put everything on your back, you know, just
survive in the woods for a few days.
I mean, as a kid I loved wandering around the woods and
building forts. So I just am basically doing
that as an adult now. Yeah, just an expensive 4th that
you buy ahead. Of time seriously exactly my
dynamic tarp that I have and so I got into that I got into just
general backpacking and then I realized that Pennsylvania has
18 state forest backpacking trails.
And so I was like I I like, you know little sort of challenges.
So I was like, oh, I'm going to backpack all of these trails and
then I'll get like the Pennsylvania backpacking award.
And so the mid state trail in Pennsylvania is 327 miles and I
was working a full time job and I was like I can't I had a my
daughter was just born too. So I was like I can't take a
month to hike this trail and somehow I stumbled upon so I
yeah, I stumbled upon John Zaharian's Colorado trail FKT
video and I was like, wait a minute.
I was like people hike like 50 miles a day for multiple days
and I was like maybe I could do that I was like maybe I could do
like 30 miles a day or 35 miles a day or 40 miles a day.
I'm like pushing myself. So I just started like training
and getting into it. And so when I did the the mid
state was like my first sort of like when I dip my toes into
like real FKT experiences and I actually hung a bag at a food
bag at mile like 200. So I was like, I don't even know
if I can do this in 10 days or 12 days.
Yeah. Because yeah, so I hung a food
bag and I was like, I can do the self supported if I if it
doesn't work out with the food I have in my pack.
And I ended up passing that bag and ended up doing the whole 327
in like sub seven days for my first FKT.
So. Yeah, less than 7 days and
you're worrying if you're going to do it in 10.
Yeah. It's so funny because I got into
I don't even know what we call this sport, but this like
greater niche the same way because it was like, I want to
climb all the Colorado fourteeners this summer, but I
have a full time job and I have to like squeeze them all in on
these like 10 weekends. And so that's kind of how I did
it of like, well, I have to go faster out of necessity for my
job. It sounds like kind of how you
were backpacking or squeezing stuff stuff into and and kind of
the the ideas formed and then and then they enlighten you that
people setting these records aren't running every step.
And then it's like, maybe they're more approachable.
Exactly. Yeah.
I was like, I I just have to walk a lot.
I was like, I can just walk. That's how hard is that.
Yeah. And did that like break the seal
after that were you like I can do a lot more of these and I
want to try some more of these after you hit the mid state
trail. So it was it, it was a really
interesting sort of trajectory after after the when I finished
the mid state, I was like, that was cool.
That was an awesome experience. I don't know if I'm going to do
that again. And then I also had to hike the
Tuscarora trail as part of like the Pennsylvania, like 18
trails. And so I was like, obviously I'm
going to do the Tuscarora as an FKT.
And so I did the Tuscarora and that took AI think it was like a
year, maybe a year or two later, just because the, the the mid
state kind of broke me a little bit.
And I was like, this is, you know, it was it was a fun
experience, but I don't know if I want to do it again.
But then after I did the Tuscarora, I was like, I just
sort of like fell into the addiction and I'm like just like
doing FKT after FKT. I don't.
Know yeah, yeah, they seem to stack up, but also that four day
FKT is such a good length like it pushes you in every way yet
it's not one of these. It's unimaginable, the end or
something. Exactly.
Yeah, it was. It was a good distance.
Yeah. OK.
So you start stacking these up, gaining experience.
Are you kind of aiming at more and more competitive harder and
harder trails over time too, as you get confidence?
Like how does it work choosing what trails you're going after?
Because you're jumping around a bit like Minnesota pit Hodi that
makai eventually. Yeah, so that so the
Pennsylvania ones, I was like I ran out of the Pennsylvania
trails. I don't have any more.
So what else am I going to do now?
And also my my FKTS. But they were they were, I was
happy with them, but they were also some like the Tuscarora
didn't there was a supported time before at the mid state
didn't really have a FKTB before it.
So they're all sort of like first known times.
And the even the so the Ben Mackay had Ivy Smith had a six
day, 17 hour time, which is, you know, it's a awesome, really
impressive time. But I was like, if I if I could
just do my average time, I should be in like the five day
range, but I didn't want to. So I decided on the Superior
hiking trail because everybody said do not hike the bent Mackay
in like June. It's so overgrown, it is so hot.
It is not going to be a fun experience.
And so I've always, I've heard a lot about the Superior hiking
trail. I've heard it.
It's actually possibly my favorite one so far for many
reasons. But it was, I've seen a lot of
people hike it. I've seen a lot of YouTube
videos on it and it had a really stout time.
And so I was like this, this, this is a time I can like really
race and push myself and sort of test my limits.
So that was that was one of the reasons why I decided on the
Spirit Hiking Trail. Yeah.
And did you, did you find your limits?
Did you find what you were looking for or did it just make
you wanted to more and go harder?
It so it definitely tested my limits.
I was, so I was basically like racing the FKT.
So I was every day I was, I don't know what the deal was
with that trail, but I couldn't move fast.
It's not a lot of elevation, but I was just like, I don't know.
I just couldn't, couldn't keep pace that I wanted.
I just pretty slow like on a 24 minute miles or 23 minute miles,
which is I wasn't super psyched with that.
But every night I'd sleep like 3 hours less than the previous
guys FKT. And so I was like sleeping 3
hours less and then making up three hours, and then I'd lose 3
hours the next day. And then it finally got down to
the final day and I was like, all right, I cannot sleep for
the next 100 miles. And so I basically was like, all
right, this is it final push. And I think it was 103 miles and
38 hours. I just went through straight and
I lie down face down in the dirt for a dirt nap with my pack on
for. I set my alarm for 10 minutes
and my hips hurt so bad. After 6 minutes, I fell asleep
for 6 minutes. And then I woke up and I was
like, all right, let's just keep moving.
It's always the hips during the dirt nap, like they start
hurting and you just got to find a way to get vertical.
Yeah, it. There's like no way to escape
it. It's almost like claustrophobic.
You just like like trying to move around.
But the hips are, yeah, they're the worst.
Yeah, because it's so much. I mean, it's more weight than,
you know, all our running listeners would know, but it's
over for so much longer, too. It's such a repetitive pattern
that, yeah, I don't even know. I haven't found a good way to
train hips so that they're not the main thing that's sore at
the end of these. Yeah.
And it I don't experience like I run, my training is like, I
don't know, I'll run like 2025 to 30 mile training runs and
there's no way to replicate that amount of like force and
repetitive motion on your hips. So I don't even know how you
would train for that. You have to train for it by
doing other FKTS, that's why they're so hard.
Seriously. So was this your first like
sleep deprivation hallucination thing on the on the Superior
hiking trail? I mean, the Tuscarora trail, I
definitely was sleep deprived. I I mean, I've always it was
definitely the most extreme by far and it was the most fun I've
had with hallucinations. Like I was in on like another
planet after I went through the through the night.
The night wasn't a big deal. I was just like, you know, your
usual like, is that a stump or a bear?
Is that AI don't know something crazy.
But the next day I was having like full like seeing people and
like faces and I was taking pictures and sending them to my
wife. And I'm like, that is a super
villain. Like a villain for like a super
and like on a tree, like, like the knots in a tree.
Lots of like smiley faces and then frowny faces and like, I
don't know, and like the blazes on the trees.
Yeah. Wow, So what?
Yeah. What is she thinking when you
she's getting those? Did you find out after the fact?
And she's home with kids and stuff too.
So she's always amazed. She's like, how are you so
coherent? She expects me to be like, I
don't know, like totally incoherent and just like
stumbling around. But I'll, I'll be like walking
along and I don't know. I'll just text her like very
coherent stuff. And she's like, I'm amazed that
you're able to like do this after you haven't, you haven't
slept in 30 hours. I don't know.
Your texts have like perfect grammar and everything once
you're just hallucinating. Yeah, it was funny on the on the
Bent Mackay trail. One of our kids, this is like
like TMI. But one of our kids, she's like,
hey, Caroline has lice. And I'm like, oh, no.
And I'm like, so I was like, make sure you use this, this
like lice stuff. It works better than the
Permethrin stuff because the Permethrin stuff doesn't work
anymore. And she's like, how are you
doing this at 2:00 AM? You know, after you, you're on
like day three of your Bent Mackay FKT.
Oh man, yeah, it it never, never stops for you.
Let's dive into the Bette McKay because it's really fun and you
have a really good, what do you call it FKT report, I guess here
too. So was it did you have like fear
or nerves going into this third time attempting it.
We talked through the 1st 2:00 but had it like grown in your
head? Absolutely.
And it's weird because I've done other FKTS since then since I
tore my calf, but this one I was like, I mean it.
First of all, it's got 65,000 feet of for over 289 miles.
And so it's it's not as much as the long Trail, but it's it's
more than you know, more than the Panhone, more than Spirit
hiking trail, more than I don't know, I think it might be even
on par with John Muir Trail, but I'm not I can't, I don't
remember that the feet. Yeah, John Muir I think has
less, but it's a little bit shorter too.
So maybe soon per mile, but yeah, a little different.
Yeah, and I knew. So I was a little anxious about,
you know, that and then I knew because my previous years I'd
attempted it in March and that in March, the trail isn't really
there's no overgrowth. There's no like it's, it's in
pretty good shape. And this year I was doing it in
May. I actually had AI strained A
calf. I strained my a different the
other opposite calf about two weeks before I was supposed to
start my attempt in March. Yeah.
Wow the mental gymnastics even get to the start line and feel
confident. Seriously, I was like so bummed
out. I mean, I've been planning, like
waiting a year prepping planning and then two weeks before I, it
was just like a super easy fifty mile run.
And I just like developed this weird knot in my calf that, you
know, I, I assume was like a mild strain, but I was like, I
can't dive head first into it, into the Ben Mackay FKT with
like with not being 100%. Yeah.
And so, so that heals up and then get together pretty
quickly. Yeah, so it healed up.
I felt good. And then yeah, I was, I was
ready to go. I was, I was definitely nervous
though, because I was like the the trail is going to be super
overgrown. It's going to be, it's just
going to be like there's more variables that I haven't
experienced that I'm adding into an already difficult trail.
And in, in hindsight it, it really the trail, I mean it was
a little overgrown, but it didn't really the, the
additional daylight that I gained from doing it in May was
much more of an advantage than any any overgrowth.
And it was actually the, the trail crews trimmed a bunch of
the blow downs. So there are even fewer blow
downs now than there were last March.
So my concerns were not really. But yeah, so luck is going your
way. I thought it would be fun as we
like go through it and hit some of the points.
But also like I want to hear or let people hear too.
What kind of your strategy or plan is and then when kind of
you have to sway from it? So I mean, it looks like the
plan from the beginning was a pretty beefy day, one you ended
up with like over 60 miles, about 14,000 feet of gain.
And then it looks like you only slept one hour that night.
Was that the plan to just jump right in and send it?
So that's always my plan. I got, I, I sort of glean that
from John Kelly. I used to try to do the opposite
where I was like, let me bank a bunch of hours in the beginning
and not, not like devastate myself and like be sleep
deprived on day 2. And I've heard John Kelly say
you got to just go. Like you have the most rest on
day one. So you need to take advantage of
that and just go straight through the that first night.
And so I've switched I think every, I think the Pinhote
Superior hiking trail in this one, I've all I've done one
hour. And so I just do like one hour
rest that first night. And usually it's like 1/2 hour
before and 1/2 hour after. So I ended up stopping for about
two hours, maybe a little less, maybe an hour, 40 minutes.
But yeah, that's so that's my strategy.
First night is to yeah. And do you do you have planned
when that hour is going to be or is that all by feel on that day
one? It's usually so I every every
FKTI have like my sleep spots sort of pre planned and I know
like where's a good spot to stop this one.
So that was actually another the the very first year I did the
bent Mackay, I had booked like a flight.
So I booked a flight down to Atlanta.
I got, I rented a car, came to the northern terminus and so I
had a flight booked down and a flight booked back.
And so I, I couldn't, I couldn't adjust the date when I started.
And so I learned I will not do that ever again.
Because when I started the Ben Wakai the first time, it was
like torrential downpour like an inch and a half to two inches of
rain the first day. And so I started raining at, I
think it was like 2:00 PM it started raining and I hiked in
like torrential downpour and thunderstorms from 2:00 PM until
midnight. And this is March in the
Smokies, which are at like, you know, 4000 feet.
And I was so cold that I, I stopped about, I think it was
like 8 or 9 miles before my plan stopped because I, I, it was
like, I have to get warm. I'm like going hypothermic.
And so that first, that first attempt I quit before I wanted
to the last two, I stopped at the same spot.
So I executed my my plan but. Yeah, it's such an interesting
lesson to learn and I'm right there with you.
I actually plan to do the Arizona Trail.
I don't even remember starting someday.
And it was just like so overwhelmed, wasn't feeling that
I just waited till the next day and I was like a new human.
It's that that flexibility is basically why FK TS are so
great. You can pick the time of year,
the direction of what you're taking, all those things and
giving up some of that by like the regimented travel schedule
can just like take away some of that enjoyment of it.
Exactly. And that's that's part of the
reason why I do FKTS and how I got into them is because I
really despise running and just like being I can backpack in the
rain totally fine. But like doing FKT in the rain,
it's already very uncomfortable as it is then then to be in the
rain and like you can't take out your phone to navigate, you
can't listen to podcasts, your hands are freezing.
Like everything is just more difficult.
So after that experience I'm like never again will I like
lock myself into a start date. I just need to be able to be
flexible. Yeah, there's like rain
paralysis where you don't want to get things out of your pack
or more calories, you don't want to take your phone out and
you're just like walk in hunched over, trying to stay as warm and
dry as possible. It's it's really the worst thing
on an FKT. You can't do anything.
That and that that happened on my Pinhote FKT in, in November
on like the fifth day. It was like there was a, there's
a 27 mile Rd. walk and that it, it would like rain a little bit,
then it would stop and then I'd get hot and I have all my rain
gear on. Then I'd stop, take my rain gear
off, put in my pack, and then then it would start raining
again. And so I was like hoping to make
up all this time on the road walk.
And I ended up was was like slower than I wanted because I'm
like taking rain gear off, putting it on my feet are like
totally macerated. Yeah.
So yeah, rain. Rain is not make things easier.
No, especially down there too where you're usually greeted
with humidity after, so everything that you let get wet
is going to stay wet the rest of the FKT.
Exactly, Yeah. OK, So execute day one really
well and then it looks like like a more manageable bite with like
11,000 plus feet, 53 miles is that yeah, I guess like what's
the the strategy here? Are things feeling good and then
eventful stuff starts happening around this day too forward.
Yeah. Yeah, so this this section is on
the Lake Shore Trail and the Smoky still.
It's like 30 miles. It's kind of boring.
It's you're just basically like it's it's flat and it's nice in
the in March because you're getting like views of the lake
of Fontana Lake that it was just kind of like walking through the
woods and you like you're on the lake a little bit.
You go into this like further into the the National Park, but
you you're on that for like 30 miles.
I made I made really good pace compared to last year.
I was pretty psyched. You pop out on Fontana Dam and
then you basically follow the AT for I think it's like 2 or 3
miles. And then from there, you just
hop out, you follow a ridgeline, and then from there you go into
the National Forest where that's when it it starts getting super
lonely and super remote. Yeah, and there's not a lot of
people on this trail in general, right?
No, I passed 2 through hikers. I don't even know.
I didn't pass a lot of people. I'm not, I think 2 through
hikers and maybe a couple other day hikers in the Smokies, but
that's pretty much it. Yeah.
You're not seeing a lot of people.
And one of the one of the three hikers, he was coming at me and
he's like, are you a real person?
He's like, am I seeing something?
And I'm like, now I'm real. He's like, I haven't seen
anybody in like 3 days. Wow, do you have a trail name?
Just Bob. I was thinking that was it.
It's on some things. So that's good.
That's a good one. Yeah.
OK, So what? What kind of strategies or how
are you? How do you deal with these FKTS?
Are you headphones or what are you?
What are you doing when there's no one around too?
So it's so I just basically listen to podcasts.
I can't, I don't know what it is.
I can't. I love music.
I like, you know, I see tons of concerts and stuff, but I like
if I just can't listen to music because I I almost get like
annoyed with stuff really easily.
It's it's hard to explain, but I'm like, I don't want to listen
to this and I have to save battery power.
I have like a little tiny MP3 player from like 1995 or I.
Don't. Know 2005 or something?
Yep, I have one in in middle school, yeah.
Yeah. So I can't even like choose what
I I can just do like shuffle. I can't even like choose what I
listen to, so I just listen to podcasts and they're all, yeah,
they're all basically like FKT or ultra running podcasts cuz I
can, it helps me like I'm like, there are other humans out there
that are experiencing the same things I am and I feel a little
more connected, I guess. That's funny.
That's that's an interesting style.
I mean, so I'm wondering this, do you get to the end and you
have like a bunch of half listen to podcasts, like one will annoy
you. You'll skip it.
You can't find it again. So I I, I have, I download so
many. I had like 130 gigabytes of
podcast downloaded, which is I don't know, I could I could
probably through height the entire AT and not listen to all
of them. Yeah, probably out and back.
That's so many podcasts. Yeah, but yeah, so yeah, I, I
don't know, I, I like, will skip one if I'm not, if I'm not doing
it or I'm not feeling it. But I mean, usually if they're,
I mean, they're, I listen to like the FKT podcast.
But funny, funny story. Speaking of sleep deprivation
and podcasts, I was listening to one of yours.
It was one of your podcasts when you were getting ready for the
AT OK self supported. You were talking about like top
five sleep deprivation experiences.
Yeah. And so and I so I'm like, Oh
yeah. Like I love these because I can
relate and it makes me like think.
And so you were talking about the trees look like witches
hats, right? Yeah, Yep.
And so I was like, Oh yeah, that was like in the back of my
brain. And I'm like, whatever.
So on the Bent Mackay trail, I don't know, day three or 4, I
was coming down, there's like a waterfall area and I was coming
down off the waterfall. And so I'm like, it's day 4.
I'm like pretty sleep deprived. I'm like, it's the end of the
day. And I started to get tired
around like 3:00 or 4:00 in the afternoon And I'm walking down
and I, I see like 3 people. There's two adults and like a
little kid. And I'm like, that's so weird.
I was like, that guy is wearing a witch's hat.
And I'm like, I was like, I, I guess I'm starting to see stuff.
I was like, that's crazy. And so I'm like, well, whatever
you know, this is, this will be fun because talking to people is
always so challenging when you're like like zoned out.
So I walk up and the dude is that wearing a witch's hat.
He had like a, or maybe a wizard hat, I don't know.
I didn't ask which it was, but it was like a 2 foot tall
witch's hat with lightning bolt on it.
I was just like. That is real life, yeah.
You weren't hallucinating. You weren't pushing hard.
I know I was like, that was a little little sad, but that
actually was a real thing. And I I like took a picture from
like 200 yards away. I tend to do that when I'm
hallucinating to like look back after the fact and be like was
this real or was this not so? Yeah, that is such a funny, that
was real story. Yeah.
It's kind of disappointing, actually.
I was a little upset. I was like, I was like, I wanted
to know the story, but I was like, I'm not.
I'm just going to keep going at this.
Point Yeah, let's stay on this tangent for a second.
What other good hallucinations have you had through the years
other than the faces and the bark and stuff?
Have you have you seen witches? What's What's your top five?
South, another good one was so the superior hiking trail.
I was just like, it's hard to describe.
There's been a few times. So the Pennsylvania Appalachian
Trail. It's it's not like
hallucinations, but it's like when I'm deep in the FKT and
like stuff is getting strange. I start getting these like
feelings of like elation and euphoria and it almost makes me
scared because I like start to, I'm able to like run and like
energy comes out of nowhere. But so that was happening on the
Superior hiking trail and I was just like cruising along feeling
really good. And I was seeing like, you know,
folk chalets, like in the woods, like, like, you know, like Swiss
chalets with like all the intricate artwork, like
intricate carvings and stuff. And I had like this really
distinct feeling that I was, I like, I was so sleep deprived
that I kept thinking like, oh, no, I'm forgetting the person
that I'm hiking with, like where are they?
I like, I had this feeling that I was with somebody and I kept
like losing them. And so it wasn't like a, a
visual hallucination. It was more of like an emotional
hallucination. And I was like, I like, I felt
like I had this like companion that I was like cruising along
with. Yeah, I've had, I've had a
similar one where it feels like I'm like supposed to do a task
or like I'm on my way to do something and I can't quite
remember what it is. And yeah, it's some type of
hallucination. I guess Emotional 1 is a good
way to put it, 'cause it's like, I know for a fact I'm on my way
to like, I don't know, fix something or be a handyman, but
it's like I just can't quite remember what I'm supposed to be
doing once I get there and I'm just moving on the trail.
It's the weirdest thing. Exactly like it's like your
brain is trying to like process something or I don't even know.
It's it's doing crazy stuff behind.
The scenes, it's like we can't possibly be trying to do a 300
mile trail in like 5 1/2 days. We must be on our way to do
something way more logical than this.
So it's just trying to fill that up.
Exactly. Like you can't just be walking,
you got to be doing something. Yeah, there's got to be a reason
to this. Come on, we have cars.
Yeah, but so on that, so at the very end of the Superior hiding
trail, you, you, you hop out onto a road and then you go back
into the woods and it's so you have to hike into the woods for
like 3 miles and then you hit the Wisconsin border and then
you have to come back out to the trailhead.
So I popped into the, so I went past the, the trailhead, went
into the woods and I, my brain, I was like seeing all sorts of
stuff and I saw, I was convinced it was a Mylar balloon.
So you know, like a big Mylar balloon floating, so not like on
the ground. And it was a great white shark.
So it was, it was off like life-size great, great white
shark. And the only thing I can think
of is that I saw like there's a bunch of ferns in that area.
And maybe my brain saw the ferns and saw like said, like those
are gills on a shark or something crazy.
Yeah, maybe. Yeah.
Or from prehistoric times, like the origin of sharks.
Who knows? Yeah.
Could be, yeah. Balloons are so fun to no, I
don't know if you've found many just in the middle of nowhere.
It just feels like a big, yeah, these things do come down
somewhere. It's it feels like a real treat.
It was actually funny when I I just unpacked my my bent makai
bag and I have like a bottom pocket and I was like pulling
all the stuff out and I was like, oh, I forgot I picked up
this Mylar balloon in the middle of the forest.
So I tossed it. Yeah, you should get like extra
points for balloons like -5 minutes or something.
Yeah. So, OK, so back, back to the bet
in Mackay. So one hour the first night
looks like you up it to three hours, is it?
What is kind of your sleep strategy through these 5:00-ish
day FKTS? Because you seem to be to be
nailing it. Yeah.
So the middle days I try to get 3 hours and then I'll like add
or subtract depending on what's going on.
The second, the second night was really not good sleep on my hips
were killing me and I kept my pad was like sort of on a slant
my sleeping pad. So I just kept sliding down off
the pad and I eventually I was like 300 yards short of a
parking lot area. And I, I always try to avoid
like hanging out, you know, I don't want to sleep in a parking
lot #1 I don't want to get like run over in the middle of the
night or something. Like just messed with like
people coming and seeing me. But after like an hour, I was
like, I'm just going to go sleep in that parking lot.
So, and when I say parking lot, it's like 30 miles from the
nearest paved Rd. So it's nothing around.
So I picked up I, I have a like little bug bitty that I sewed.
So I had everything inside the bug bitty.
I just picked it up, walked 300 yards with it, put it on the
ground and then crawled in and fell back asleep.
It is the saddest thing when you have to move the campsite.
It's tough. I was like, I'd like put my
shoes on and I didn't put socks on and my blisters are getting
torn up and I'm just like, this is miserable.
And, and, and you know, I'm like, cool, I have another hour
and 40 minutes before I have to get up.
It's like whatever. Yeah, the, the weighing the
decision like this is going to suck versus I want a good couple
hours more of sleep. And then just like moving down
the trail trying to like just hold all your stuff.
It's it's probably the lowest moment you can have on the trail
where it's like campsite choice was was poor.
Now I'm just dealing with the consequences.
Things are awful. Exactly.
And I'm like hoping that I'd not I didn't like drop something in
the in the campsite and I like will like realize later.
But yeah, I mean, it was, it worked out, it was fine.
Yeah. And so 3 hours usually, do you
do that through the end of the trail and then maybe a final
push? Is that usually the status?
Yeah, so I did three, I did 3 hours, 3 hours and then the
second to last night I did 2 1/2 hours because the so the second
night or I'm sorry, the yeah, the the I'm sorry.
The third night into the 4th morning, I don't know, they all
blend together, but one in the mornings I went to charge my
phone and I love this story. Yeah, I had AI had a 20,000
Milliamp. So on the on the Panhote trail,
I bought it. I was like trying to go super
light and I was being an idiot and I brought a 10,000 Milliamp
battery bank and I'm like, I'm not going to touch my phone.
I'm not going to mess with anything.
I'm going to see how like little battery I can use.
And it did not work out. I I ended up needing to charge
my phone like in the last like 60 miles.
So this time I was like, I want, I want to listen to podcasts.
I don't want to listen to my own thoughts like that is just
absolute torture. So I was like, I'm going to
bring a 20,000 million battery. And so I my like this is a bunch
of numbers and annoying stuff, but the battery bank.
Yeah. Yeah, so the battery bank was at
40%. It's a 20,000 battery, so it
should charge my phone fully like at least twice more.
My phone went from 30% to 50% and then the battery bank went
from 40 to 0. And so I was like, that is not
good. I still have, you know, 100 and
30 miles left to go. You got to stop buying your
stuff off TikTok. Seriously, So I, I told my wife
I was like, hey, if you ever get a text from me because I have AI
have a Garmin in reach and I've got three pre preloaded
messages. And so 1 is like I'm safe.
Number 2 is I'm a camp and #3 is I'm, I'm at the parking spot
heading into the woods just for normal backpacking.
I was like, if you ever get the message that I'm at the parking
spot and heading into the woods, that means my phone is dead
until you're not going to hear from me until I finish the trail
and so. It's your safe word, yeah.
I was like, I was like I got my watch.
All I need is my watch to get. As long as my watch can last
till the end, I'll be fine. So.
Yeah. And then so let's do this story
on. So you'd stop and charge for a
little bit and then you, just like me, like to do everything
unsupported or self supported. So yeah.
And that sets the stage. I'd love to hear this story
about stopping to charge for a bit.
Yeah. So there's a campground.
It's a national, I think it's a National Forest campground
called Thunder Rock. And so it's like super rustic,
but there's like a bathroom there.
I actually stopped there to fill water at like the spigot last
year. So I knew it existed.
And I was like, I was like, you know what, I'll charge my phone
for 30 minutes. It's I was like, it'll just
relieve a little stress. I was like, I hate to stop for
30 minutes. It's such a waste.
You know, I could be a mile and a half down the trail, but
whatever. So I I stopped to charge and I
unplugged my stuff in and I'm sitting there and this guy
walked over and he's like, hey, he's like, what are you doing?
And I was like, I'm hiking this trail and he's like, what trail?
And I'm like, oh, the Benton Mackay goes right through this
campground. He's like, what, where does it
come from? And I was like the Smokies.
He's like, you mean like in like North Carolina?
And I was like, yeah, he's like, well, how far is that?
And I was like, I think it's like 200 miles.
And he's like, how long did that take you?
And I was like, I like, I don't, I don't even know.
Three days. And he was just like, so
confused. And he's like, where are you
going? And I'm like, I have to, I'm
going to finish the trail. And he's like, all right.
So he goes into the bathroom and comes out and he's like, you got
to come over and tell my wife the story.
And this is. Not what you want to have happen
when you're doing an FKT. I'm just like, I can't like I
love talking with people. I love like interacting, but
it's, it's really, I mean, you know, it's, it's difficult to
like have conversations and think like linear thoughts.
And like, your main job is to get things charged so you can
keep going. Now you're getting these side
quests on a tired brain, which you're like really easy to throw
things off. And I was, I was actually
planning on sleeping. I was like, you know what, I'll
take a 15 minute nap and I'll set my watch and I, and then he
came over and started talking to me and I'm like, whatever.
I was like, worse. I was like, I'm not going to
sleep. So his, his wife, he's like, you
got to tell my wife. He's like, she's, she's going to
love this story. I'm like, I was like, I'll see.
And I was like, I'm not going to walk over there.
So then she walks over and like, no judgement, but she's been,
they've been like clearly having a good time and you know, having
a few cocktails at the campground and it's like good
for them. But she was like, she like got
her the whole thing. She's like, you got to come
over. You got to, you got to, she's
like, I'll make you, I'll make you some food.
And I'm like. Right now, right now, your brain
is like, do I explain unsupported rules or do I just
find a way out of this? I'm like trying, I'm like, I'm
cannot get into like unsupported or self supported versus
supported. I was like, this is the nuance
would not like go over well with her.
And so I was like, everything's in my bag.
I got all my food, I'm all set. And she's like, you don't have a
home cooked meal in there. And I was like, I know I would
love one. I was like, I really is like so
kind to you. I was like, that's really nice.
And she's like, well, how far are you going?
And I'm like, I'm going like another 100 miles.
And she's like, well, you're not going to get there by dark.
And I'm like, Nope, I'm definitely not going to get
there by dark. And she's like, well, what are
you going to do? And I'm like, I have a headlamp.
I'm going to just keep walking. She's like, you can't do that.
And I was like, I was like, I'll be fine.
And so eventually she's just like shook her head.
She's like, she's like, you should come over.
We got plenty of food. You just like ruin their
evening. Like what?
Why is this guy not want to hang out with?
Us she she was so bummed out. She was just like, I don't know,
but yeah. And then I so I charged my
phone, threw everything back in my bag and I head out and the
guy, I think they must have been like camp campground hosts
because he was in like golf cart with his buddy and his buddy
yelled he's like, he's like, hey, Bob, he's like, good luck.
Hope you get the record. I was like thanks.
Isn't it such a relief? I mean, interactions are great.
Sometimes it can empower you, give you energy.
But ones like this where you're like stressing, trying to get
like something charged, maybe take a nap when you walk back
into the woods, can't you just feel the stress like releasing
like your back? It, it, the part of it also is
that like when you, when I'm doing, like when I'm trying to
focus on that when you're so sleep deprived, like one of the
main side effects I guess is like my short term memory
completely disappears. So if like, I, if I don't keep
track of something, I'll be like totally forget that I'm doing.
I'm like trying to keep track so, so hard that I'm like, I, I
cannot leave my phone. I cannot, like I have stuff
charging. I need to remember that.
I need to remember this other stuff that I have to do.
Like I need water before this thing.
But then, yeah, once I went back into the woods, I was just like,
like I felt a little guilty that I was like, was I too rude to
her? Like maybe I should have like
been a little nicer. But I was like, I don't know.
I just cruised on. I was like, I I feel so much
better now. And I think something that
people won't get is maybe like when you're in an FKT, you don't
really pack the comforts that you get when you're backpacking.
Like your comfort is just knowing what's in every pocket
that you have everything that you're just set like you have
the food, you're you're good to go unsupported is a beautiful
thing because it like eliminates a lot of those things.
And then you get in like a small talk conversation, trying to
figure out and keep track of where everything is.
It's just overwhelming. Like mentally you've just you've
just lost your flow. And part of it is also like, you
know, Joe McConaughey, he he got into that situation on the Long
Trail where he was just like having a conversation with
somebody, accidentally took some water and.
Oh yeah, yeah. And so like he like he totally
space out for a second and then I'm like, I, I have to make sure
that I do not take anything from this like woman, even though
she's like super nice. And I'm like, so yeah, I'm like
trying to like I and also like I relooked up the rules because I
was like, I can definitely charge my phone unsupported,
right? So I like had to get, I went
back into the FTT website and it explicitly says like you are
allowed to charge a public outlets.
And I'm like, OK, I'm like, wow. So.
OK. And then so let's jump into the
the final push here. So you've survived keeping it
unsupported, but I mean it did feel touch and go there for a
bit and then you're back in the woods and you're pushing through
the final 90 miles. What's kind of your strategy in
the final push? So final push I am, I was trying
to decide if I wanted to. So I, I, I do basically the same
thing as like night one. I was like, do I want to do a
one hour nap? Do I want to do 230 minute naps?
Like what, what do I want to do? And so I didn't really have a
strategy and I was ahead of the like records.
So it's like, how much do I want to destroy myself just to like
get a couple extra hours? Like if I'm chasing it, chasing
a record, then I'm like, sure, it's worth it.
But it's like, do I really want to just like completely have
like, I don't know, destroy my brain in the process?
So I decided, I don't even know if I made a conscious decision
because I can't thinking back, I don't know how it happened, but
I just decided to just walk as much as I could.
And so I eventually lie down for 10 minutes at 11:00 PM, like
center of the trail. And I was, I treated myself.
I actually took my pack off and put it in the middle of the
trail and lied on top of the pack.
That's so good. I can just feel the comfort
knowing how it was. It was just like nice and like
lumpy underneath me and yeah, but so my, but my knee, my knee,
like something was funky. So I slept for 10 minutes and
then got up and started moving again and then cruised through
the night. I was doing my thing.
And then I noticed that I was like, so I have my watch, like
beeps every mile. It's like a double edged sword.
My stuff. Yeah, that is like, it's like,
it's, it's crazy, but I could tell.
Like it was beeping and I was like 27 minute miles, 26 minute
miles, 20 minute miles. And I'm like all over the trail,
like stumbling and kicking rocks.
And my toes, both my big toes were like look like cadaver
toes. They're like purple and like,
yeah. So I was like.
East Coast baby. Seriously.
Oh my gosh. So I was like, you know what I
need? I was like, I'm probably going
to make up more time if I lie down for 1/2 an hour and sleep.
And so I decided I actually accidentally went past a spring
too. And so I didn't, I don't go like
another 6 miles before I had water and I was, so I was out of
water. And so eventually I was like, it
was, I don't know, three in the morning or something.
And I'm like, I, I'll set a 30 minute timer or I'd set a 20
minute timer. And so I don't even do alarms at
that point because my brain can't do like the math of time.
I'm with you. So you get to a point when you
just do timers because so it says exactly what you get right
there. You don't got to do time.
Yeah, exactly. So I just set a 20 minute timer
and then I, it was funny. So I set the 20 minute timer.
I woke up 20 minutes later and I was like, I'm doing a 10 minute
timer. I was like, I'm going to sneeze
for 10. And so I set the 10 minute timer
and I don't even know what came over me, but the 10 minute timer
went off and I just like woke up, lied there for a second and
then just like screamed into the black void because I like didn't
have my head up head lamp on or anything.
And I was just like yelled out and I was like, all right, time
to go and just stood up and got my water at the spring and then
kept moving and. Then you were good the rest of
the trail on that tenant. There, Yeah.
Yeah. So like one of my superpowers, I
guess is that once, once dawn hits and like the sun rises, my
brain just like, turns back on. And so I, I know that like, as
soon as I make it, if I can make it to Daybreak and like the
sunrise, if I just like, stare at the sun, it like, wakes up my
circadian rhythm. I don't know what the deal is.
OK, But as soon as the sun came up, I like felt, you know,
everything was reset and I was, I was wide awake.
So I knew like at 3:00 I was like, I, I have 3 hours, I can
make it 3 hours until, until the sun comes up and then I'll be
good to go. Yeah.
And then as you're kind of going through the final stretch, are
you thinking like hitting that point where it ended last year
too? Are you like, if I get through
this, I'm going to be good? Is this in your head at all that
attempts have ended this close? No.
Well, so I passed the point that it was crazy.
I was so far ahead of my time from the previous year that I
hit the point. So the last year when I quit, I
hit, I quit exactly 5 days and 240 miles.
I was like 8 or 9 hours ahead of the previous year.
Yeah, it was kind of wild. I had no idea why I was so much
faster this year, partly because it was more daylight, but I, I
was just moving a lot better, more, more efficient.
And so I passed that point and I really, I really didn't think
about it. I was going to like take a
picture or something. And I was like, you know what,
I'm not even going to acknowledge this.
I'm just going to keep moving and just get on the trail.
And then once I got within like 10 miles, I was like, I can
basically crawl from here to the end.
So at like 10 miles to Springer, I was like, I, I will accept
that I finish, but it's also that last 10.
Miles, it gets hard, yeah. I was, I was going to say
because like 10 miles is like, you know, that's super easy when
you've got 200 to go. The last 10 miles you're like,
this is still like many hours. Hiking left, it's like
frustrating to your body. You're like, we have to keep
doing this for three more hours, like we've already got it in the
bag. This is the worst part.
And, and it's like, yeah, like I've already done 280 miles.
Like how bad can 10 miles be? And then you're just like, this
is so slow. I I'm like so bored.
I would need to get need to get this over with.
It's like maximum boredom. I'm sure like every podcast
wasn't interesting anymore. It's just.
I I do wouldn't I couldn't even listen to any podcasts anymore.
I was, my brain was like totally fried.
I was just like, it's time to just like think about, I don't
know, just enjoy the hallucinations.
Date. I love daytime hallucinations.
I like bring them on nighttime ones.
I'm like, I don't want to deal with that.
I don't, yeah. And so you finish and is this, I
mean, you said this was by far the hardest FKT yet.
So yeah. What are you feeling at the
finish? Are you like, relieved that you
finally did it or you just stoked because you beat all the
FKTS all the times? I mean at least the men
supported and self supported as well.
So yeah. How are you feeling at the end?
It's such a weird feeling because it's so so I actually I
recorded this one. I mean like a video, like a
YouTube video. Or I was gonna bring that up.
That might be why you lost some battery power.
Yeah. And so it was funny because I
like showed my wife because she's like she she knows what I
do, but she's never like seen the finish.
But she's like, that's so anticlimactic.
She's like, there's nobody there.
There's like you just by yourself and then you finish and
then it's over. And I was like, yeah, I was
like, but it's it's about it's like so cliche, but it's like
about the journey. It's about like the planning.
It's about like the like execution like once, once you
finish, you're like I cool, like let's move on to the next one.
If you finished into like an Olympic Stadium, do you think
you'd still be like, it's about the journey it's about?
I wouldn't like that. I don't.
Know I think it's yeah, it's just such a different sport like
you other neither of us have done supported so we don't
really know. But like you suffer alone, you
do this alone and you finish alone and it's like it would
change dramatically if right at the end you had a big crowd
cheering. You had to like stand on a
podium or something. Exactly, like I don't know, it
feels more fitting to to just like finish alone because I
don't know, it's just you're just there with you're there by
yourself and you're there with your own.
Like, I don't know. And I'm also always so tired
that I don't really want to like talking to people is really
challenging. I would like always like warn
that the shuttle drivers when they pick me up, I'm like, I'm
going to be like talking gibberish and it I'm going to
like stop mid sentence. So like, I'm cool, but just be
aware. That is funny that you finally
got to show what it's like at the end to get an outside
perspective. I haven't really thought about
that, but I guess in terms of people being interested and
following along and stuff, the end is not what you'd expect for
people being interested in success.
It's like, yeah, OK, it's over. Yeah, it's like, all right,
there's the sign. All right, let me wander down.
And it's always so funny when you like, I was hiking down from
from Springer and you're like passing people and they're like
saying like, hey, like enjoy your hike.
You're like I Yeah, I just. Enjoyed that.
Yeah, I did it. It's over maximum enjoyment.
OK I have a a few other topics. I'm curious on a couple that are
quick. So we both have done a lot of
FKTS in glasses but I'm sure a lot of people have questions.
Does that present challenges for you?
It not really. I actually, I got fitted for
contacts to like see if I would like them and I did not say I
don't like them in my eyes, but I mean they fog up.
They're kind of a pain. Especially down there where it's
like humid. I mean, it's, it's always like
smudged and smeared and I don't know, like it's tough to get
them clean. Yeah, it is.
But you get, you get used to it. I did, yeah.
Yeah. I mean, it's it's just part of
the the thing. Yeah, OK.
And then so we talked about sleep.
What is your food strategy? What do you eat out there?
People are dying to know. So food strategy is I do half
solid food and then half is liquid nutrition.
So my solid food is I do 1 backpacking meal and it's cold
soaked and I actually like shook it and like showed my wife like
in the video, like the video I took.
I like shook it and I'm like, I get to treat myself with this
biscuits and gravity at the top of the hill. $17.00 down the
Hatch cold. Yeah.
And so I was like, I get to treat myself with this.
She's like, are you seriously like looking forward to that?
She's like, is that like? And I'm like, yeah, I don't
know. And so I do a backpacking meal.
I do M&M's, cookies, chips, peanuts, so solid regular food
that's like 2200 calories. And I don't.
Like all the stuff you all the stuff you don't let your kids
eat. Well, they, the kids absolutely.
Like they're like, oh, dad's going on a backpacking trip
because I like, you know, I, I don't, I'll fill up my, my bags
and then I have like all the leftover bags and they're like
Cheetos. Like they love it.
They just like Cheetos and Chips Ahoy.
They think backpacking is where you go to like eat really bad
and just escape having to eat vegetables.
Seriously, they're just like this is awesome.
Like sodium and sugar. Like give it to me.
They're going to be like when can we backpack?
This sounds awesome. Yeah, they or they want to come
with me. They're.
Yeah. But so, yeah, half is solid food
and then the other half is maltodextrin.
I buy. This is another crazy thing that
I do. I buy 50 LB bags of maltodextrin
and I go through it like every two years.
Wow, yeah, you got to brush your teeth with that stuff too.
Oh my gosh, yeah. Actually I think yeah.
So I carry. That's a good tip as I have my
my toothbrush in my front of my pack because makes your teeth
like grow fur. Yeah, everything does.
And brushing your teeth is like a free reset of your body.
Like you feel you're in no way clean, but it feels like you're
a little clean when you brush your teeth.
So the two things that I love is #1 brushing my teeth, it like
wakes you up. And then the other thing is I I
look forward to putting my sunblock on every day because it
just smells a little different and it like it's like a treat.
Cold soaked meals, sunblock and brushing your teeth.
Man, don't tell the kids this part of it, Yeah.
Yeah. So the so I do 2200 calories
solid three 2200 and it's maltodextrin and then like a
ratio with multi dextrin fructose and then either I will
add like Gatorade powder or different electrolyte powders.
And then I also do one bag of Roctane, which I really like
that like the goo Roctane stuff. Yeah.
Yeah, so that's my. Are you mixing on the go like
when you get to a source pour? Like do you have a scoop?
Are they individually bagged up? How do you navigate?
Powder everything is individually bagged.
It kind of pains me because I've like do my best to minimize
waste and like normal life. Yeah.
And this is like, I just like, hate going to the grocery store
and buying like Ziploc bags and filling it with my food and then
wasting it all. But I figured I'd do it.
Single use, yeah, yeah, yeah, OK.
And so yeah, yeah. So mix it on the go and then is
all your food like pre portioned out by day?
How do you stay organized? Yeah.
Yeah, so again, listening to podcasts and gleaning
information, I, so I used to use gallon Ziploc bags and I heard
you say one time you're like, I use the, the, like the produce
bags at the supermarket. It's like the, the like bulk
bags. And I was like, that's
brilliant. They're like they're lighter,
they pack down smaller. So I go and when I pick up my
food I grab like 6 bulk bulk bags and.
Yeah, they're free too. So you just walk out with a
pocket full of poor plastic bags.
Yeah, it was this hack because sometimes there's like holes in
them, so they like push down really well too.
So they're. Exactly.
You can squeeze all the air out of them.
I was like, this is so brilliant.
This is so much easier than Ziploc bags.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, life hack for anyone
out there. When they organize their food,
just get the the produce bags that fall apart in a stiff wind.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
And So what, what's next for you?
You got the one that's been eating at you for I guess that'd
be like 2:00-ish years. What does that make you want to
shoot for next and and aim at in the future?
So I had like, I don't know, out on the trail, I, I always,
there's always like the, the feeling of like, why am I doing
this? Like, like I'm just destroying
my body. Is this really something that I
really want to do? And then as soon as I finish,
I'm like, let's do this again. Like I don't like, we, we got to
plan the next one. And I don't know what, what it
is or what the feeling is, but it's just like, I don't know.
I just love the planning. I love the sort of like the
execution, like going through it when you're in the midst of it,
it's a kind of a nightmare, but it's that's part of the the fun
of it. The last three hours is the
nightmare, or the last 10 hours, whatever it may be, once you
think you're going to get it, your brain doesn't want to get
it anymore. Yeah, so part of so I'm, I was
like, I don't know, I'm like running out of 300 mile trails
to do. Like I'm like, do I really want
to just keep doing 300 mile trails?
Like I, I sort of want to chase. I want to push myself, like
chase records, see what I can do.
So #1 Actually, on the trail, I was like, you know what?
I'm going to sign up for Coca Dona.
I was like, I've been like, apprehensive about it.
And I'm like, I don't know if I want to.
Yeah. But I decided I was like, you
know what? I want to experience that once
in my life. I want to do it.
So I entered the lottery. We'll see if we get in.
And part of it is also I've, I've always wanted to do an FKT
out in the like Arizona area, like in the American Southwest,
but there's, there's really not a lot of 300 mile trails like
you have the Arizona trail, but that's going to take a lot
longer than, you know, a week, which is tough for me to get
away for that long. And so I was like, Kokodono is a
really good sort of, you know, it's a crazy thing to say, but
like an entry point into. Yeah, well, us FKT people, we're
dropping down in distance to show up at Coca Dona.
I am and I'm like, this is crazy.
I can like sleep in a cot and like it's already set up for me
and I don't have to blow up an air pad and you know.
Please, please at the start line or when you're running with
people, tell them you're a 300 mile specialist.
Yeah, it's kind of my sweet, my sweet spot.
Yeah, you'll see how 250 feels, but usually you're good at 300.
Yeah, so I sign up for coconut. I'll see if I get in.
I have 100 mile race eastern states 100 in August which I
love doing. It's that area.
It's North Central Pennsylvania and it's it's I have FK TS on
like 3 of the trails that it it connects.
So it's like a special 100 mile race.
It's the only race I've ever done.
And so which is kind of funny, but so I've got that.
And then people always say they're like, are you like, do
you like to keep like your, your plan secret?
Do you, do you want like people to know like what your, what
trails you're, you're going for? And I'm always like, if there's
somebody that's going to be faster than me, I want them to
go before me rather than go out there, set a time and then have
them beat me. I'm like, I'd rather have.
I'd rather have it the other way around.
You want your records forever. Or at least to push myself
harder than I would if the other record didn't exist.
I agree it is such a thing of the bar, like it gets set
somewhere and then people eclipse it.
So I think it like it certainly is competitive in a way, but
also you get to aim your sights and goals higher once the higher
bar is set. I think that's the cool thing
about FKTSI mean I've done some that I was terrified that I
couldn't do that, and that's the beauty.
Yeah. And so that's, that's part of
The thing is I, I kind of enjoyed the fact that I was
really scared about this FKT. And it's just like a different
feeling than going into it and being like, I just as opposed to
being like, I just have to finish, which this one was.
I just have to finish. But it was a little more intense
than that because there's a lot, a lot more at stake because it's
not just like walking through the woods.
It's ton of elevation, ton of a lot of other factors.
But yeah, the the my like thing that my like year of failure
where I'm like, I want to try and it's OK if I fail, but the
long trail has always called for me.
I was actually planning on doing it.
The year that Will Peterson, he said his set that unsupported
FKT, which is like an epic time. There was a huge hurricane that
went through and I was planning on heading up there.
The hurricane came through and I was like, you know what, I'm not
going to add more, more stress to that area.
Will lived up there. And so he went out and ended up
hiking the trail and setting like a ridiculous time.
And so like, if you do all the math, it's like if I hiked my
normal pace, my normal like 25 minute miles over the entire
trail, I would need to cut off 11 hours to beat Will's time,
which is like, where do I make up 11 hours?
Like but. Wow, Yeah, when you put it like
that, it's a very impressive. So if you have any tips where I
can make up 11 hours let me know.
Yeah, no, 11 hours maybe. Maybe if we cut out cold soaking
that can save you a couple out, a couple minutes of fiddling
with stuff a day. So we've saved you 8 minutes.
I don't know, This might take a while to come up with 11 hours.
Yeah, and I want to hike the Long Trail regardless, so it's a
it's a win win. I I want to just hike that
trail. So I was like, you know what,
maybe I'll give it a try. Yeah.
So we'll see. We'll see.
Last question because I think it's really cool and maybe not
highlighted enough. So you have you have a family
and stuff too. How do you balance it all?
Like what is your life look like to train for these multi day
FKTS? But also like we had to schedule
this because you had kid activities going.
I think that's pretty awesome, but not a lot of people know you
can fit some of these things into your life.
Yeah, it's kind of funny that. So I have my daughter Caroline,
7 and my daughter Addie is she'll be 4 in a month.
And it's kind of funny that like before the seven-year old, I had
like infinite amount of time or I could do whatever I wanted
whenever I wanted it. And I did not do FKTS, which are
like extremely time consuming the most.
Yeah. So it's like, wow, you really
plan that one really well. And so it's a lot of.
So my wife is amazing. Laura is incredible.
And so it's a lot of, hey, on Saturday, I'm going to wake up
at 4:00 in the morning. We're going to do a long run.
I'll be back by 11 and so or, you know, this weekend I'm going
to do a, a shake out hike. I'm going to do, you know, I'll
be gone for three nights just to, you know, do a, do a
backpacking trip with some big miles.
It's a lot of like planning around family vacations and
stuff and then coordinating with Laura.
She's she's very understanding of my passion and helps she, she
takes a lot of the the kid load. So yeah.
Yeah, you're not like parenting hard from Day 4 on the Bette
McKay trailer or anything. Yeah.
Exactly. Yeah.
And when and when I get back, she's great because it's like,
she knows that it takes me like a day or two where I, like,
can't jump right back into parenting.
So she's like, yeah. Do you get back in like they
want to play or run and jump on your arms and you're like, my
body doesn't work yet? They well, they know they're
like my little 4 year old daddy Today was like dad, she's like,
I'm, she's like, I promise I won't step on your toes.
I'm like, it's OK. I'm like I'm good now.
It's been a week. It it's so funny because they're
like at the ages where they'll tell their friends stuff too,
and they're going to be like, daddy has really fragile toes.
Yeah, but it's funny, their perspective is like, I don't, I
don't know if this is good or bad, but I ran like 31 mile race
a couple weeks ago. And so I was talking with my my
7 year old Caroline and she was like, I was like, I'm going away
this week and I'm running a race.
She's like, how many days is it going to take you?
I was like, oh, I was like, it's going to take me like 5 hours.
And she's like, wait, you're not even.
It's only that I've been a full day and I'm like, no.
So her perspective is like, yeah.
She's disappointed in you. You gotta get those numbers up.
Man, she's like, seriously, She's like, what's the point?
I'm like. Our family doesn't do things for
less than a day. Come on.
Yeah, it's less than a day. Well, thanks so much for joining
us. So you have a YouTube?
Yeah, I think you only have a couple videos on the the
YouTube, but you have a good one on the Bette Mackay trail.
So yeah. So people can go check that out.
What else? Where else can they find out
more? I read the report just on FKT
under Bette Mackay, but I don't know where else do you want to
point people. So I really don't have much
going on. I just I just have typical.
Thru hiker, yeah. Seriously.
Yeah, it was. So I I just have if you, I mean,
if you want to go read my trip reward, it's on
fkd.fktfastestknowntime.com. My YouTube videos up there.
I just do it to, I don't know, I just want to mostly just show my
dad and my family like they're always curious.
I'm like, yeah, I'll make a video.
Yeah, you got extra battery power.
You're like, might as well just film some more stuff.
Seriously. Yeah, that was also the reason
why I brought a 20,000. I was like, I'll make a video.
It worked out well. Yeah, it's pretty hard to put
those together after the fact. Yeah.
Well, thanks for joining. This is great.
Thanks for having me, it was fun to chat, I could talk about this
stuff for days and days so. Thank you for listening to the
show. I appreciate you guys being
here. A lot goes into these and I seem
to be writing my own intros. Look at that putting time and
effort and creative passion into this project.
A lot of good episodes coming. The schedule will continue as
I'm on my travels and I'm thinking I'll pop in with an
update live from across the pond too.
So smash to subscribe if you want to support it will just go
to filling the void of how much free stuff I put into the world.
There's a Patreon, there's a sub stack, there's all kinds of
stuff. But anyways, just appreciate you
guys being here and listening for free.
All right, stay elite, my friends.