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Dramatically wrong. 
Like squares are now faster on 

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cars than wheels are so. 
If you're not using square 

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wheels, you're an idiot. 
Your free diet outside sucks. 

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But also, women are not blue 
hippopotamuses. 

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Yeah, I read Born to Run and it 
seems like we're pretty 

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resilient. 
Box and whisker chart is much. 

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Linear regression of a model of 
my When you're a little kid, you

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get a pair of new shoes and 
you're the fastest person on 

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planet. 
Say one day we'll be able to 

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carry our phones around in our 
pockets and even do video calls 

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where we can see each other 
while we talk. 

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No way, that's weird. 
Yeah, that's too much. 

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Why would anyone want to do 
that? 

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The really boring, uncomfortable
truth is, the right amount of 

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The thing is the right amount 
for. 

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You welcome to the free outside 
show, the show where we find 

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interesting people, topics, 
storylines and try to present 

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them in an entertaining way. 
And I think this is a great 

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episode. 
So one of the things that I've 

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noticed and especially is bled 
into my coaching has been diet 

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over the years from the early 
days when I was 20 on the 

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Pacific Crest Trail on existing 
on a limited budget. 

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And that leads to a lot of 
sugar, a lot of processed foods,

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but you're 20, like, what does 
it even matter? 

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But over time, it's been this 
big shift where just being 

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conscientious of my diet has 
really helped. 

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And one of the most unique 
things of Europe was I felt like

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I had to start over walking into
a grocery store and looking for 

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the same things that I've eaten 
for years. 

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Just. 
Didn't really exist in the store

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so I went to a lot more bread 
and things like that. 

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Just a big shift, but man, their
bread was actually incredible. 

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You'd get to like a Hut in the 
middle of nowhere and they'd 

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have fresh baked croissants. 
Didn't even make sense. 

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They have way better bread and 
it's everywhere. 

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So with that on diet, it's easy 
to think about diet on papers 

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like eat, drink carbs, recover 
protein, boom. 

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But I think it's way more 
complicated than that. 

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And today I have on the Your 
Diet Sucks podcast with Zoe Rohm

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and Kylie Van Horn, and we 
talked about a number of the 

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topics involved in diet and it 
turns into kind of a question 

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and answer some storytelling, 
but it was really fun. 

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Go check out their podcast as 
well. 

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They have a number of episodes 
that like one will hit on keto, 

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one will hit on calorie 
counting, one will hit on 

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carnivore diet. 
It's just a really good way to 

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learn about the diet over there.
And they do a really good job 

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editing. 
It's quite entertaining. 

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So encourage you to go check 
that out. 

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But nutrition, so it's been one 
of those things that I have 

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gradually gotten better about. 
I have a whole document that I 

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send out to athletes that I 
coach on nutrition. 

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How to think about it, how to 
substitute things in. 

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Because what we're doing, 
whether you're through hiking, 

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backpacking, or trail running, 
it's something very different 

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than normal life. 
It's not like you can just walk 

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to the cabinet, turn on the 
stove, cook something up. 

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It has to be a little more 
thought out, thought through, so

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that these decisions are made 
ahead of time, so that you have 

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the tools to be successful. 
A lot of these races exist in 

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the middle of nowhere and it's 
hard to get fuel and calories 

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and whatever else you may need. 
Life hack though. 

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I did take a stove to Europe and
was able to luckily find gas to 

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power that stove, but it opened 
up a lot more disabilities as 

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far as like cooking and food 
that I could take. 

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So travel hack, I guess if 
you're going somewhere, if you 

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can throw a stove in, maybe you 
can cook on the go. 

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OK, first before we get into 
things, I want to thank John G 

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for supporting the free Outside 
podcast. 

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When I was in Europe, I only had
two outfits. 

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I had the Snappy Tracker shirt 
and AT shirt from John G and 

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then two pairs of shorts and 
that's what worked the entire 

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time. 
Why do I point out the snappy 

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trekker? 
Because it can look semi formal 

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so you can go into places in the
bigger cities of Europe like I 

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did and not look super out of 
place. 

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And I wore it in the 100K that I
did over there. 

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The Zugspits in the Southern 
Alps in Germany and Bavaria and 

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it worked great there. 
So I would encourage you to go 

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check it out. 
They are dropping some more 

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stuff soon on the Jonji website.
So JANJ i.com use code free 

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outside for 10% off. 
And I want to throw out garage 

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grown gear because they're also 
a sponsor of the show. 

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But this water bottle here, the 
Mazama Amigo water bottle, so it

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has this larger top that you can
take off and that makes it easy 

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to fill. 
And then they have this smaller 

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cap on top that's perfectly 
designed to fit a filter. 

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So you can save some of those, 
some of those disposable water 

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bottles, the smart water bottles
that everyone filters out of and

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00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,440
get one of these reusable ones. 
There's also a lot of other 

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companies that are making 
similar products. 

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So I would encourage you to 
think about that as we're 

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starting to get into backpacking
season. 

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Hopefully smoke is not impacting
you too much. 

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I just finished a workout. 
Things are good, but I've had to

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turn into a morning runner. 
Why you ask? 

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Because I'm on this doxycycline 
medicine. 

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We caught Lyme disease really 
quite early, like within 8 days 

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of it actually of it, me 
contracting it or whatever when 

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the bruise forms and stuff. 
So that's really good news. 

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But it's been really annoying 
because one of the side effects 

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of this medication is that you 
have sun sensitivity. 

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And it was like, OK, that can't 
be a real thing. 

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But I went out one day and 
absolutely cooked myself. 

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It was only like 10 or 11:00 AM,
but the sun was out and wow, sun

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sensitivity is a real thing. 
I was like overheated. 

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I felt awful. 
So we've avoided that since 

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then, and I've become a morning 
runner. 

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Everyone seems a little more 
worried about Lyme than I am, 

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but I think that's just my 
personality. 

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I'm taking it seriously, taking 
my medication and we'll get on 

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the right side of this. 
Still have some cool plans for 

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maybe an FKT later in this year.
Have a lot of athletes I coach 

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going after big things in the 
near future, so that is exciting

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as well. 
All right, let's get into the 

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podcast and if you want to leave
a rating or a review, I would 

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really appreciate that. 
And me and Allison Powell, my 

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fiance, started a podcast called
Free Inside if you like this 

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content. 
And somehow we built an audience

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of over 5000 active listeners. 
So that's pretty awesome. 

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So you can go check out that 
other podcast because you know, 

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we're just building an empire 
and monopoly here on the ears of

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the nation as, as we would say, 
World Cup final today. 

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And I have loved watching the 
best try their hardest. 

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I think I feel that about every 
single sport. 

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I don't watch a lot of regular 
season, I pretty much don't 

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sports. 
But when it comes to 

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championships or big events like
this, it is so fun. 

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No matter of the sport, watching
the best people at it play is 

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very cool. 
So this will be after the World 

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Cup happens. 
What's my pick? 

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I think I think, I think the 
World Cup, FIFA wants Argentina 

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to win, but I think that Spain 
will win. 

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I think it will be 3 to 1 Spain.
All right. 

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With that, let's dive into the 
episode. 

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Today on the free Outside 
podcast we have on the Co host 

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of the Your Diet Sucks podcast 
and while on my run today I was 

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thinking what if we combine the 
two names and it would be Your 

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Free Diet Outside Sucks. 
So maybe that's the name of 

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this? 
Episode amazing podcast. 

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Yeah, it'd be like very niche, 
but it might be really good. 

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So we have on Zoe, Zoe Rome. 
Did I get that OK? 

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It's Rome or ROM. 
It just scared me looking at it 

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just now and then. 
So what prompted you guys to 

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start a podcast and call it Your
Diet Sucks? 

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First of. 
All. 

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Well, I guess to the name of it 
all. 

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I wanted to give it a title that
was kind of cheeky and lovingly 

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provocative. 
And I really like the word. 

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Well, I love hate the word diet 
because when you see it in the 

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scientific literature, what it 
actually means is like a pattern

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of eating. 
Like, it's not like, you know, 

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diet, but the way that many 
people experience that word is 

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like diet in the sense of a 
super restrictive specific way 

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of eating rather than like how I
eat as a person. 

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And so I thought it would be a 
fun catch all. 

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That was sort of like the way I 
hear it in my head is like your 

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stupid diet, like whatever, like
dumb thing you're currently 

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trying that you read about on 
TikTok that you're doing. 

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That's stupid. 
But the broader pattern of your 

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eating is great. 
But a lot of the people who most

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need the podcaster people that 
are already a little bit maybe 

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down on themselves or are trying
to find a way to re engage 

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positively with the style of 
eating. 

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And so I hoped the title as a 
double entendre would sort of 

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speak to folks no matter where 
they are on their on their food 

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journey. 
Totally. 

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Yeah. 
And you have like 75 ish 

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episodes and they're all kind of
centered around different diets 

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or topics. 
So it's pretty incredible all 

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the research you must have done 
for the past year or so. 

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Yeah, we, I mean, you know, I 
think one of the things that's 

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amazing is that Kylie sort of 
comes in with this huge body of 

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research. 
But as a science communicator 

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myself, I think I looked around 
at a lot of the podcasts that 

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were available in our world and 
I was not exactly blown away by 

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the density of facts and 
research. 

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And so I wanted to provide 
something that was a little bit 

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different and brought in the 
socio political context that 

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brought in the history and used 
all of that to engage with the 

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science. 
Because as much as we like to 

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think that we're making 
decisions based on like, oh, I 

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read this study and like, this 
is what the science says, a lot 

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of us are really running off 
vibes and feels, which is like 

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we're vibes and feels machines. 
That's what we were evolved to 

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do. 
And so bringing in both the 

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rational and slightly less 
rational side of things to give 

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people something that feels 
grounded and in conversation 

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with, like the reality of a 
human life was really important 

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to. 
Us yeah, definitely. 

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And I've been, I don't want to 
say a victim. 

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I've been Privy or like been 
pulled into some of the fads, 

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especially my early 20s of like 
intermittent fasting or been 

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fascinated by like the keto 
world or like there's so many 

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things. 
And what makes it really hard, 

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especially me growing up, I 
didn't really have any key 

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figures or knowledge around my 
life. 

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It was starting to be this age 
where you could find any 

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00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,840
information on the Internet you 
wanted to support what you 

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00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,800
wanted it to mean. 
And I think that's a big thing. 

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And an issue that bothers me now
especially is we have all these,

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we have experts and we have 
people who spend years educating

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themselves. 
And then we also have all these 

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studies that are funded and the 
structure is is good for 

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information. 
But then we have these people 

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that are less educated that may 
not take these studies that are 

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00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:47,320
putting the information out into
the world because audience and 

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00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:51,640
attention span apparently means 
more than accuracy these days. 

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00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:55,640
Does that feel like something 
that you're fighting against to 

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with with your podcast is like 
correcting some of these things 

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that especially I think some of 
the young males are getting 

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sucked into? 
I mean if accuracy was easily 

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monetizable we'd be 
bajillionaires, but 

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00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:12,080
unfortunately algorithm is a 
little bit the fingers on the 

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scale against accuracy and in 
favor of attention capture. 

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Whatever has the best lives 
because again, we're all kind of

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flying by the seat of our pants 
and responding with our primate 

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brains to a lot of the stimulus.
But you know, I think, like you 

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00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,880
said, it can be really easy, 
particularly in the realm of 

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nutrition and exercise science, 
because science is hard, right? 

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It's really hard to find robust 
studies that aren't just 

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observational. 
So it's really hard to find 

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great bodies of evidence to draw
super specific prescriptions 

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from. 
And I feel like most of our work

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exists in the sort of messy 
middle between decent science 

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00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,960
and really shitty prescriptions 
because a lot of the 

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prescription, you know, like 
intermittent fasting, like 

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there's actually fascinating 
science on autophagy and the 

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different mechanisms that link 
that to longevity, to particular

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metabolic outcomes. 
The unfortunate truth of those 

231
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is when you look at those 
studies for longer than 90 

232
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seconds, you realize most of 
them are done on fruit flies and

233
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yeast. 
I don't identify as either of 

234
00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:20,800
those groups. 
And therefore, the science is 

235
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going to have really limited 
relevancy to my life. 

236
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And so doesn't mean we burn the 
studies down and throw it out 

237
00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:29,120
the window. 
It means that we have to be 

238
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really careful and diligent with
that translation. 

239
00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:36,040
And I'd be curious to hear from 
Kylie how you think about taking

240
00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:41,280
those things from like the like 
the bird's eye view of evidence 

241
00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:45,800
and seeing how that applies to 
like the actual humans that you 

242
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work with in a clinical context.
Yeah, No, I, I feel like what we

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00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:58,240
do a good job of doing is 
combining like giving a kind of 

244
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perspective on where we lie with
the research. 

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And we try to look, we try to 
look at both sides, give a 

246
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:09,960
nuanced look at things. 
And then we leave people with 

247
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the option of kind of making a 
decision themselves on what they

248
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can do with that information on 
that particular topic. 

249
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The hard part with that is that 
people really like to have 

250
00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,840
simple explanations for what 
they should be doing. 

251
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And because we don't give them a
rule book or a playbook, I think

252
00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,920
people struggle with that a 
little bit because they're they 

253
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want to be told like, all right,
here are the six steps to this 

254
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:41,480
like outcome. 
And that's kind of what social 

255
00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,600
media does. 
And except then it doesn't 

256
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:49,080
consider all the nuances. 
So we're trying to provide all 

257
00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,560
of the nuance there and then 
allow for people to make the 

258
00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:57,200
decision themselves. 
And I think sometimes we get 

259
00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:02,120
pushed back because people only 
hear what they want to hear if 

260
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they have a particular opinion 
about something. 

261
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,760
And so we get we end up getting 
like the negative end of the 

262
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,240
stick because they don't listen 
to the whole episode or they 

263
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,720
only hear what they want to hear
on the nuance perspective. 

264
00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,880
And because like to be frank, 
our scientific literacy as a 

265
00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:22,880
country is not fallen at this 
current time. 

266
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And like, sure, you can find 
maybe even a relatively mid 

267
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quality study about whatever 
your particular perspective on 

268
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:34,880
like the keto diet is. 
But it's you can't just like 

269
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point at one study and then say,
and we need to update praxis 

270
00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,280
accordingly. 
Like you need to change how you,

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00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:45,720
Jeff, as a person with these 
constraints, this bandwidth, 

272
00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,320
these financial resources, these
goals, objectives, background, 

273
00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,240
whatever your current body 
composition is, age, all of 

274
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these things. 
And like try to shoehorn that 

275
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into this random study. 
So I think it comes down to like

276
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the public not always 
understanding what it means for 

277
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,360
something to be evidence based. 
And So what you see is a lot of 

278
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:07,520
influencers, podcasters, you 
know, there's our industry, 

279
00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:09,720
certainly not above reproach in 
this. 

280
00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,920
And like they might gesture at 
studies, gesturing at evidence 

281
00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,440
without context isn't 
scientific. 

282
00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,400
Anyone who's actually correctly 
communicating around the 

283
00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,920
evidence will always heavily 
caveat it, specify the 

284
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:27,000
limitations, and be really clear
about how it does or doesn't 

285
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:33,080
result in updated prescriptions.
OK so I'm really curious on 

286
00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:38,320
which topics or diets in general
you guys have had the most, 

287
00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:43,360
Maybe engagement, curiosity or 
even push back on what are like 

288
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,840
the hot ones that people want to
know more about I guess. 

289
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,600
Depends on who who we're 
serving, right? 

290
00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:55,120
No, I mean, you would know most 
about the popularity of like, 

291
00:16:55,520 --> 00:17:01,200
downloads or listens maybe, But 
I've gotten feedback from people

292
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,560
that are listeners that they're 
like, oh, yeah, I love that. 

293
00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,560
Like the episode where we talked
about protein because that's 

294
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,800
something where, like, people 
are seeing protein and like all 

295
00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,480
the snacks and the chips and 
like all the stuff, they're 

296
00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:14,880
like, do we really need that 
much? 

297
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:19,280
And so our episode on that did 
it really well, Did a deep dive 

298
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:23,240
on that. 
But even we did an episode on 

299
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:28,359
religion and diet and we got 
really thoughtful feedback on 

300
00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,520
it, even though it might not 
have like looked as popular if 

301
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:33,400
you were just like numbers 
based. 

302
00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,440
So I think sometimes it's hard 
to tell like what is the most 

303
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,000
popular, right? 
I mean the protein. 

304
00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,600
One is the most popular and then
other pattern. 

305
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:48,000
I mean, because and also because
of dumb reasons like AI and SEO.

306
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,280
Like what are people Googling? 
They're Googling. 

307
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,360
Should I be eating protein pop 
tarts? 

308
00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:54,280
Like I don't know what to tell 
you. 

309
00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:58,320
Like I wish as a journalist, I 
wish people did literally all 

310
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,560
the things different, but they 
don't in the world we live in 

311
00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,640
and onwards we go. 
But there's also definitely a 

312
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,560
little bit of a trend of we 
talked to a lot of people who 

313
00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,880
are trying to navigate out of 
diet culture, out of restrictive

314
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,920
eating, out of disordered eating
and eating disorders. 

315
00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,560
So episodes about the psychology
and Physiology of hunger have 

316
00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,920
been really popular. 
And our second most popular 

317
00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,560
episode ever was the calorie 
counting episode, which I was 

318
00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,280
kind of shocked by because I had
always thought that was, I mean,

319
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,720
kind of boring, frankly. 
The history is fascinating, but 

320
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,080
I think it shows that there's a 
pattern of people realizing that

321
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,360
the way that culturally we've 
been operating isn't 

322
00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:40,400
sustainable, isn't a good place 
to live life from, and certainly

323
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,360
is it a good place to fuel any 
athletic pursuit from. 

324
00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:47,680
And so I think that there's a 
clear, forgive the pun, hunger 

325
00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:52,120
on the part of people to dive 
into science and cultural 

326
00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:56,760
analysis that looks at the how 
and the why and isn't just like 

327
00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,320
we interviewed one other 
menopause expert about her 

328
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,760
favorite fruits to eat on the 
13th day of the month. 

329
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:06,080
So I think that people are 
really fascinated to understand 

330
00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,840
why do I feel this way? 
How can I maybe go forward and 

331
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,240
feel different is my optimistic 
reading. 

332
00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:15,120
My less optimistic reading is 
still SEO based and these people

333
00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:17,640
come in thinking they're still 
going to find weight loss advice

334
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,480
and then 7 minutes and they're 
enraged and they've chucked 

335
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:22,920
their iPhone into the ocean from
hearing my voice. 

336
00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,560
Wow, that would they might go 
through a lot of iPhones if 

337
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,480
that's how they react. 
Contrary opinions these. 

338
00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:34,520
Days responsible for, yeah, 
intensive resource extraction in

339
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:35,800
China. 
That's on us, guys. 

340
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,560
Yeah, just fueling manufacturing
worldwide. 

341
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,280
But to dive into things a little
more, what? 

342
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,320
So we can start there with 
protein. 

343
00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:50,200
What what did you find on on the
protein aspect of things? 

344
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:54,080
Because it is like protein 
maxing is probably like a 

345
00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,360
buzzword or a domain URL that 
some influencer has at the 

346
00:19:57,360 --> 00:19:59,680
moment. 
I'm sure they do. 

347
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,160
Yeah. 
Well, yes, everything, Max. 

348
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:03,520
Oh yeah, yeah. 
Well, exactly. 

349
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,240
To that point, there's this 
belief on the part of our 

350
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:11,400
culture, and I think it becomes 
even more intensified in sport, 

351
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,200
athletics, endurance culture 
particularly of like more is 

352
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,760
always better, more fiber, more 
protein, more iron. 

353
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,600
And the really boring, 
uncomfortable truth is the right

354
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,880
amount of The thing is the right
amount for you. 

355
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,680
And just getting infinite more 
amounts of protein, infinite 

356
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,800
more amounts of Max magnesium, 
infinite more amounts of vitamin

357
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:32,840
C. 
These things have diminishing 

358
00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,760
returns, right? 
Like you can't just like biohack

359
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,920
your way into a completely 
different understanding of like 

360
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:43,280
muscle protein synthesis. 
But it's a nice idea, It's a 

361
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,480
nice narrative that if you just 
really double down on this one 

362
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:51,320
specific thing and you get 400 
grams of protein every single 

363
00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:55,720
day, then you will live longer, 
recover better when western 

364
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,400
states finish hiking the AT 
like, insert whatever 

365
00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,000
achievement is meaningful to 
you. 

366
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:06,200
The appeal of anything maxing is
that doing one simple change and

367
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:10,720
just doing it to the most 
extreme extent is a way to 

368
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,280
circumvent like really normal 
boring nutrition advice like eat

369
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:19,000
enough, eat consistently, sleep,
manage stress, have a meaningful

370
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,800
contact with other human beings 
in the world. 

371
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,080
And then probably just get more 
sleep and drink more water again

372
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:26,640
as well. 
But I'd be I'd be curious to 

373
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,560
hear your take on the protein, 
specifically because you work 

374
00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:33,320
with people on the ground. 
Well, I think with the, we 

375
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,040
mentioned this a little bit with
the current administration 

376
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:41,280
that's been a little bit tough 
too because whatever RFK junior 

377
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:46,280
is kind of promoting or kind of 
emphasizing the, the trends tend

378
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:50,560
to go in that direction. 
I would say with like hello and 

379
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,000
deep frying turkeys and things 
like that and if. 

380
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,680
You're not Allo maxing or you 
even try. 

381
00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,160
Well, it's kind of and then 
we're, we're like minimum, it's 

382
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,680
this circle where we 
overemphasize 1 macro nutrient 

383
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,160
and then we're like, oh, but and
carbs are evil and we're eating 

384
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,200
too many of them. 
And so it's not something where,

385
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,760
again, we can have this like 
balanced conversation about it. 

386
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,520
It's more like, you know, where 
we had like, the low fat craze 

387
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,160
in the 80s and now it's high 
protein. 

388
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,520
And so we kind of go through 
each macro nutrient. 

389
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:25,240
I feel like it goes in a circle.
Yeah. 

390
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,240
Like which one are we on now, 
you know? 

391
00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:30,040
Yeah. 
I mean, to that point when you 

392
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:34,200
like historically sort of look 
at how our culture is related to

393
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,400
these different macro nutrients,
whoever's been doing PR for 

394
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,440
protein deserves a raise because
protein has been largely 

395
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,080
unscathed from diet culture. 
It's never really had any 

396
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,360
negative press the way we're 
like with sugar. 

397
00:22:46,360 --> 00:22:49,320
There's been periods where we've
demonized sugar born. 

398
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:51,760
A lot of people are carrying a 
lot of cultural baggage about 

399
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,440
that and carbohydrates. 
And then like Kylie mentioned, 

400
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:59,560
the low fat snack wells cursed 
era of diet culture, but protein

401
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,880
has sort of limped along until 
it's sort of like the, you know,

402
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:09,080
sort of the gasoline of Wellness
culture met the match of RFK's 

403
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,800
batshit ideas about what a human
diet should look like. 

404
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,000
Someone who only eats meat and 
ferments, by the way, which is 

405
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:19,480
an insane way to live ones life.
And it's sort of like kaboomed 

406
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,680
into this thing where one thing 
we found on our protein podcast 

407
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,320
is that the even just putting 
protein on a food label creates 

408
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,480
this health Halo. 
And it creates a permission 

409
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,440
structure where people who may 
not allow themselves to have a 

410
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,960
pop tart or a plate of pasta or 
a bag of chips when they see 

411
00:23:37,360 --> 00:23:40,520
protein on it and bewitches us 
into thinking, well, this is 

412
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,760
health food now. 
And like, we love pasta, we love

413
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,840
pop tarts, we love chips just 
'cause they have protein that 

414
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,640
does not fundamentally change 
the nature and healthfulness of 

415
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,240
those foods. 
If you want chips, eat chips. 

416
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,000
But we cannot allow protein to 
take on this health Halo that 

417
00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:01,400
hypnotizes us into thinking that
it can like fundamentally change

418
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,680
the utility and function of 
hyperpalatable ultra processed 

419
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,880
foods. 
Again, there's a all foods fit 

420
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,200
in our perspective in particular
amounts and depending on the 

421
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,800
individual's background, 
experience and all of those 

422
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,840
lovely things. 
But a pop Tart's still a pop 

423
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,040
tart. 
And we need people to not just 

424
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:25,480
see protein as like like a a 
glow that makes everything OK or

425
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,680
somehow you have to be eating 
more to reach these insane 

426
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,520
protein levels, particularly if 
it doesn't make sense given the 

427
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,600
amount of training and activity 
you're doing. 

428
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:40,160
Yeah, I think it's a really 
interesting issue we're at where

429
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,600
now you can pretty easily find 
numbers or recommendations from 

430
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:49,360
influencers or podcasters or 
anyone out there that puts 

431
00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:52,000
things out there. 
But individually, we operate on 

432
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,360
so little individual 
information, whether it's 

433
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,640
athletes that don't know, like 
they're sweat, sodium, sweat 

434
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,080
content or something like that. 
It's almost like we take 

435
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,080
information from other people 
and just assume it's right for 

436
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,440
ourselves. 
So Kylie, how if someone were 

437
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,640
working with you, how would you 
go about that? 

438
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,640
Would you encourage them to get 
answers to those numbers or go 

439
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,800
more by feel or how? 
How should we operate in a world

440
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:26,400
where we can find information 
that probably is right to some 

441
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:32,560
people but not to ourselves? 
Ideally right talk. 

442
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,280
I always tell people that when 
I, when I'm working with them 

443
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,160
on, on their like macronutrient 
consumption in relation to their

444
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,840
training, I'm always saying 
like, these are guidelines, not 

445
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,760
prescriptions. 
And so we're trying to kind of 

446
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,960
get you in the right box with 
some of these things, like we 

447
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,320
can use them as a guide. 
And then when you get yourself 

448
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,840
closer to some of the 
guidelines, then you also have 

449
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,760
to be able to interpret how your
body signals, right? 

450
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,640
And the signals can be 
interpreted by it's complex for 

451
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,760
hunger and fullness, but like 
also recovery or your sleep, 

452
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,360
etcetera. 
And then also through like 

453
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,960
legitimately getting blood work,
you can see like are that some 

454
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:17,880
of the changes you're making are
things you're doing. 

455
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,400
How is that affecting you 
internally? 

456
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,280
And then the hard part too is 
like there's a genetic 

457
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:24,440
component. 
So there's that. 

458
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,720
But we don't necessarily, you 
know, how can, I don't think we 

459
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:32,280
know enough genomically for 
people to be able to look at 

460
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,560
their genome and be like, Oh 
yeah, like, this is the specific

461
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,280
thing you need to do. 
Especially if you're not trying 

462
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,320
to win the Tour de France, like 
if you're just trying to pay for

463
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,040
your marathon, like we don't 
need to sequence your genome, 

464
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,040
you're probably going to do all 
right on like the normie stuff. 

465
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:48,000
Yeah. 
And I think so. 

466
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,680
I think it's OK to take 
guidelines and and science based

467
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,840
recommendations and say like, 
this is not a prescription. 

468
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:01,000
But hey, like maybe because I am
only eating 50% of my 

469
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,720
carbohydrate intake on a big 
training day, I probably need to

470
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,520
increase that some, you know, 
and trying to do some of that 

471
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,160
and navigate that and then 
combine that with how you feel. 

472
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,760
And some people like if a 
specific, maybe weird example 

473
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,440
might be like, I will work with 
someone that's coming off of a 

474
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,880
low carb, high fat diet and 
they're like, I just want to try

475
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,200
to eat more carbs. 
Like what does that look like? 

476
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,360
And so I'll explain to them like
here are what the 

477
00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:32,240
recommendations are for 
endurance athletes on different 

478
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,080
days of training, but we could 
try to find a middle ground. 

479
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,040
And you're at 50 grams of carbs 
a day. 

480
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,080
So there's a pretty big 
difference there. 

481
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,440
Like let's try to like just work
your way up, see how you feel 

482
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,320
increasing a little bit and then
kind of go from there. 

483
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:49,440
So sometimes depending on what 
the person's trying to do or 

484
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,320
navigate, having some of that 
guidance from a professional to 

485
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,920
help them kind of figure it out 
versus just like trying to 

486
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,280
navigate on their own can be 
helpful. 

487
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:04,720
Yeah, what if so someone like 
maybe 22 year old just getting 

488
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,240
into running is at home and they
want to educate themselves on 

489
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,360
maybe these guidelines or some 
some of the things that we're 

490
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:14,520
talking about. 
What's like a good method or way

491
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:19,440
for someone to learn more about 
this that isn't just search 

492
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,560
protein requirements on Tik? 
T.O.K. 

493
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,840
Listen to our podcast No, no, we
do talk about a lot of this 

494
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:33,320
stuff on our podcast. 
I will say I, I mean, I not 

495
00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:37,200
trying to plug myself, but I do 
have a book that I wrote last 

496
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,160
year for endurance athletes 
that's called Practical feeling 

497
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,880
for Endurance Athletes. 
And I specifically made it like,

498
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,120
it's not just like scientific 
studies that you have to read 

499
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,360
through to try and pick out what
you need to be doing, but it's 

500
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,920
simple, simplified in a way 
where people can be more like 

501
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,440
beginners and be able to apply 
some of the stuff to their 

502
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:00,840
training in a way that's 
understandable. 

503
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:05,200
And so I felt like as a the 
sports dietitian, there wasn't a

504
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,400
good resource out there for 
people that like did kind of 

505
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,480
summarize all of this in a way 
that wasn't so dry that you just

506
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:14,800
like fall asleep and you're 
like, I don't know what to do 

507
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:19,480
with all of this, you know, So, 
and that's kind of one of the 

508
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,920
reasons why like the book I, I 
feel like for endurance people 

509
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,880
is it is a good kind of 
reference source. 

510
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,400
Yeah, I definitely think that's 
a great source. 

511
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,960
I also like looking at IOC 
position statements, things like

512
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,640
that, or using examine.com, 
which is a really great resource

513
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,160
for looking at how evidence 
based various supplements and 

514
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:44,080
dietary interventions are in a 
like non partisan sort of 

515
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,480
untainted way. 
Because I always get frustrated 

516
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,920
when I heard people say like, 
well, just do your own research 

517
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:53,360
because like I have an English 
degree, like without getting a 

518
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,520
master's degree in science 
communications, I would have no 

519
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,880
idea how to translate these 
things. 

520
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,800
It is a, it is difficult and it 
is not something that the 

521
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,400
layperson can do very easily. 
And that's OK. 

522
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,880
Like these things are not 
written particularly well and 

523
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,640
scientists are typically not the
people doling out the 

524
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,400
prescriptions anyway. 
They're like the research is 

525
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,080
meant to gather information. 
And so I think finding those 

526
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:21,160
intermediaries between well 
reputed evidence like position 

527
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,240
statements, potentially like 
meta analysis, I think trusted 

528
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,280
journalistic outlets that like 
check their facts and site 

529
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:32,000
sources is great. 
Almost any medium that's more 

530
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,120
than 90 seconds long is going to
be better than anything that's 

531
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,240
90 seconds or less. 
And looking at where expert 

532
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,200
consensus is because science is 
pretty boring. 

533
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,440
It doesn't change quickly. 
So I think people should always 

534
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,840
be innately skeptical of 
anything that's like, this new 

535
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,840
study shows groundbreaking 
sodium bicarb research. 

536
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,160
It's like, yeah, maybe in like 2
dudes on the Tour de France, but

537
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,080
we're not constantly rewriting 
our understanding of the human 

538
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,200
body. 
And so being really skeptical of

539
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:05,680
anything that feels new, flashy,
seeing how expert consensus like

540
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,600
the International Society of 
Sports Dietitians response to 

541
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,400
things like that. 
Because those groups are going 

542
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,400
to be not industry affiliated 
the majority of the time with 

543
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,520
reputable ones aren't going to 
be industry affiliated. 

544
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,320
So finding folks where there 
aren't going to be monetary 

545
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,880
conflicts of interest that would
taint prescriptions, that would 

546
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,960
taint translation so that you 
don't have to go to the source 

547
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,600
material because I don't think 
that's a realistic expectation. 

548
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,000
Like if you're a busy parent 
working a job training for a 

549
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,800
marathon like dog, you do not 
need to be on pub net for hours 

550
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:41,440
a night. 
Yeah, also the statistical 

551
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,320
analysis of some of the results 
of these studies require like 

552
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,240
post secondary education to 
understand for and if you've 

553
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:53,760
never read a pub Med study, like
it's hard to even know where to 

554
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,880
start reading. 
So I think that's what your 

555
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,680
podcast does really well too, is
like takes these things, does 

556
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,200
the work and presents it in a 
way that is so much more bite 

557
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,640
sized than figuring out like 
linear regression of a model of 

558
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,600
mice. 
And does this study even have 

559
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,680
relevance by the time you get to
the end of it? 

560
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:17,440
So I think that's the real. 
Trick box and whisker chart is 

561
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,920
much of the next eye. 
But again, also like without, 

562
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,080
you know, there's some there's 
like this trend of vanity 

563
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:25,600
journals. 
So these are journals that are 

564
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,760
not particularly well reputed 
and can become like a pay to 

565
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,960
play situation. 
And not all journals are created

566
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:33,840
equal. 
So we're always making sure that

567
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:38,360
we're citing sources that aren't
in like Tim Noakes, like, you 

568
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:43,240
know, pay to play low carb 
extravaganza journal and making 

569
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,320
sure that we're presenting 
things in a balanced, nuanced 

570
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,440
way of like, well, we have these
meta analysis that indicate this

571
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,280
is true. 
However, there were a couple 

572
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,480
other studies that might 
complicate that. 

573
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,520
And we don't know exactly what 
the in your life implications 

574
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,000
are, but it's worth looking at 
the science and seeing what 

575
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:04,120
questions it raises rather than 
like going A to C like a lot of 

576
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,080
communicators do. 
And they're like, the study in 

577
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:10,080
fruit flies shows that eating 
low carb will make you faster. 

578
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:14,160
And I'm going to just put out a 
quick TikTok telling marathoners

579
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,200
what that means for them when 
that makes zero sense. 

580
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,320
But again, like there can be 
things that are in conversation 

581
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,880
with each other and they need to
be contextualized. 

582
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,520
And you always want to look at 
like, is this The Lancet or is 

583
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,280
it some random journal I've 
never heard of that has like a 

584
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,880
horrendous history of 
retractions? 

585
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,480
Because there are like the 
databases that will track how 

586
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,440
often different journals have 
studies retracted. 

587
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,080
And a good journal should have 
some studies retracted. 

588
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,480
Like if you're never updating 
anything, that's not good. 

589
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,600
But if you're constantly 
retracting your like weird 

590
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,920
ivermectin studies like that's 
not a great place to get your 

591
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,480
nutrition advice from. 
Yeah, probably Nothing involving

592
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,200
ivermectin is great for 
nutrition. 

593
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,840
That's a hard pass on ivermectin
and all different horse 

594
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,600
medications from whiteness. 
Yeah, yeah. 

595
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,080
If we're not taking fruit fly 
studies, probably shouldn't take

596
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:07,560
either. 
So in, in this very quickly 

597
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:12,920
growing niche of trailer and 
ultra running now there's become

598
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,600
a number of these products or 
supplements or things that have 

599
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,000
exploded onto the scene, whether
it's like ketones or bicarb or 

600
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:26,400
broccoli sprouts. 
Which, if any of these, I guess 

601
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,719
what are your thoughts on these 
as, as we kind of enter this 

602
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:35,440
world where it seems like you 
can maybe buy 1% whether it's 

603
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,360
your shoes or a supplement and I
don't know? 

604
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,920
Yeah, or. 
I think your husband always 

605
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:46,920
makes the joke of like, what do 
you like call like a a legal 

606
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,760
performance enhancing drug, like
a placebo? 

607
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,199
Like they just don't. 
There's none of these things 

608
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,440
tend to really move the needle 
at a population. 

609
00:34:56,080 --> 00:35:00,520
Well, and I would say like the 
people that are being marked 

610
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:05,800
like the heavily marketed people
for this don't necessarily maybe

611
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,400
need them because they don't 
have the foundations dialed in. 

612
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:12,080
Like if we're looking at Tour de
France athletes, they, we 

613
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,760
actually kind of are trying to 
gain like every little bit, 

614
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,080
every little percentage that 
they can because they're all 

615
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:21,000
competing on a very high level. 
That's not to say that the 

616
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:25,280
average layperson doesn't like 
deserve to like perform their 

617
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,920
best, but you get like, move the
needle with the bigger pieces 

618
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:33,680
first before you get into like a
bicarb supplement, you know, or 

619
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,880
do the training versus, you 
know, we run into that too, 

620
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,040
because Zoe and I are coaches 
and it's tough because like some

621
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,440
people try to take shortcuts 
with the training and they're 

622
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,160
like, I'll take a bicarb 
supplement. 

623
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,360
It's like, well, that's not 
going to replace the training, 

624
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,720
you know? 
So I think that's part of the 

625
00:35:50,720 --> 00:35:53,440
challenge too. 
And there's really only 5 

626
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,960
exogenous supplements that are 
shown to be performance 

627
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:01,440
enhancing and that would be 
caffeine, beta alanine, sodium 

628
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,360
bicarb. 
What are the two I'm missing? 

629
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:08,640
Nitrates not? 
What's the next one either way? 

630
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,280
But there's really only 5 that 
are backed by a robust body of 

631
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,960
evidence. 
And even then, not every 

632
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:16,720
supplement is going to be 
useful. 

633
00:36:16,720 --> 00:36:20,520
In every use case. 
Prince and Beta alanine is shown

634
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,840
to be useful like helping kick 
at the end of races. 

635
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,920
I run 100 milers. 
It's really not going to be that

636
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,960
useful for me to juice myself to
the gills with something that's 

637
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,160
like only been studied in 3K 
runners or the. 

638
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,000
Big 1 is like creatine right 
now. 

639
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:37,400
Yeah. 
I was like, I think you're 

640
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,120
forgetting creatine. 
I couldn't remember if you 

641
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,440
missed creatine but yeah 
creatine is 1. 

642
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:46,480
I had so many questions about 
creatine and a lot of them are 

643
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,000
coming from female athletes and 
I think that they're being 

644
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:54,960
heavily marketed to like 
postmenopausal women as well. 

645
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,000
Just like they're like so body 
comp wise, should I take 

646
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,960
creatine? 
And I'm like, like, I don't know

647
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,360
if that's like exactly what 
you're it's being intended. 

648
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,200
For here, you know, people like 
to just throw shit at the wall 

649
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,440
because they're like it's 
performance enhancing. 

650
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:14,400
But you know, in the case of 
caffeine, it is open to a point 

651
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:18,040
and in particular circumstances,
if you try to caffeine Max 

652
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:22,160
during your next 100K, you will 
see and feel God. 

653
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,440
And that is not how you want to 
end your day. 

654
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,400
And so I think it's about 
understanding like does this 

655
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,160
like what is my actual goal 
here? 

656
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,760
Because being like, I feel 
there's a void inside of me that

657
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,040
can only be filled if I drop 
$60.00 on the feed today. 

658
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,560
That's not a very good reason to
take a supplement. 

659
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,480
Making sure you have a 
particular outcome in mind, 

660
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,680
defining what your version of 
success would be like before you

661
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,800
start taking it because the mind
is powerful. 

662
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,480
And making sure that you have 
your bases dialed in. 

663
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,040
Because none of those things are
going to be particularly helpful

664
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:53,760
if you're not consistent with 
your training. 

665
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,960
If your baseline health isn't 
good, if your mental health 

666
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,480
isn't good, if you're not 
sleeping well, eating enough, 

667
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,160
and drinking enough. 
There's no amount of bicarb, 

668
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,880
creatine, beta alanine, nitrate,
caffeine supplements that's 

669
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:07,200
going to help you get out of 
that. 

670
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,200
The wild part, the wireless part
is when I'll get people there, 

671
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:14,200
like I've been taking this for 
like a year and I haven't really

672
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,200
noticed a difference. 
Should I still take this? 

673
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:20,640
I'm like, I don't think so. 
Okay, you don't even know what 

674
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,080
you're looking for, I guess, but
right. 

675
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:28,280
Yeah, I mean, I think that's the
real trick too, is like when 

676
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,440
you're a little kid, you get a 
pair of new shoes and you're the

677
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,600
fastest person on planet. 
And I think we still have a 

678
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,800
little bit in that like you, 
your feed package shows up and 

679
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,800
it's got bicarb. 
You take it and you just think 

680
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,200
you're you're faster or it 
doesn't feel as bad. 

681
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:46,680
Like placebo is so real, which 
makes it so tricky for a lot of 

682
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:48,280
these things too. 
Yeah. 

683
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,600
And like, you know, that impact 
is really strong, like and 

684
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,720
randomized controlled double 
blinded studies, like even the 

685
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,400
researchers have to be blinded 
to this because we know from the

686
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:03,600
research that that impacts how 
the experiment is carried out. 

687
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,440
And so normies can be forgiven 
for falling prey to this like 

688
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:12,800
extremely normal, sort of like 
psychological impulse, but being

689
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,040
blind to it also isn't the 
answer. 

690
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,000
And so again, I think that one 
of the challenges is 

691
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,560
particularly with more affluent 
populations, there can be this 

692
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,440
like, oh, well, what's the harm?
And it may not be the most 

693
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:27,680
harmful thing in the world, but 
with many of these things there 

694
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,840
is an opportunity cost. 
Like the stuff's not free. 

695
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:34,240
So you're spending a lot of 
money, Yeah. 

696
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,520
And the amount of depends that 
you might need from the 

697
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,280
application of said bicarb. 
And so, you know, maybe one of 

698
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,080
the harms is like minimizing 
your financial bandwidth. 

699
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,000
But there can also be an 
opportunity cost instead of if 

700
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,720
you're distracting yourself with
these like beetroot supplements 

701
00:39:52,720 --> 00:39:55,680
and like chugging a bathtub full
of Gnomeo every day, to the 

702
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:59,040
detriment of assessing the 
overall quality of your diet 

703
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,640
from dialing in your sleep from.
Addressing any mental health and

704
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,280
well-being issues then like 
that's just not that. 

705
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,360
That can be harmful because 
people start chasing these 

706
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,840
marginal gains to the detriment 
of those foundational needs. 

707
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:17,520
Yeah, I I think that we're in 
the the era of marginal gains 

708
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,800
have Trump's like longevity, 
fitness or like training over a 

709
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,040
long time. 
It's like pair of super shoes 

710
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,880
that might make me fast next 
week versus, you know, next year

711
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,160
I I could be faster. 
Well, the hard part, I think I 

712
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,440
one more thing to add to that is
just like it, I feel like it 

713
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:41,280
loses, people lose out on the 
experience of actually like the 

714
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,680
training, you know, sharing 
memories with people and and the

715
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,360
spirit of sport. 
I feel like has gone a little 

716
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:52,080
bit in a an interesting 
direction because everything 

717
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,240
like everyone's trying to hyper 
optimize everything and it's 

718
00:40:55,240 --> 00:40:58,600
kind of like, well, what about 
like just going out and like 

719
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,120
enjoying a long mountain trail 
run Instead? 

720
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,200
You're like hyper optimizing 
everything. 

721
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,880
And I'm not saying like you 
can't do some of that, but at 

722
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,880
the same time, I feel like it 
changes how we're approaching 

723
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:15,800
sport a little bit anyway, yeah.
I totally agree. 

724
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,960
I've given this run to athletes 
pretty recently. 

725
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:21,880
Like after a longer race where 
it's like on the weekend, like 

726
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:26,360
just go out and enjoy running. 
Like we won't worry about your 

727
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,840
pace or anything because it has 
become this thing on like OK, 

728
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,280
carbs an hour. 
I've got to get this much sodium

729
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:34,840
and I've got to drink this much 
because it's this hot out. 

730
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,800
Like it really has. 
I don't know it, it seems like 

731
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,320
it's a little different than it 
was like a decade ago where you 

732
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,480
don't just leave your house and 
have a fun time and see where 

733
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,600
the wind takes you. 
You make sure every 30 minutes 

734
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:50,600
you're eating or drinking or 
fueling. 

735
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:55,160
How do you, especially being in 
this space, kind of bridge that 

736
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,200
gap on like hit the right 
numbers to take care of 

737
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,160
yourself, but also don't let it 
take over the activity in 

738
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:02,640
general? 
Yeah. 

739
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,760
I mean, I think the other end of
the spectrum, like, you know, 10

740
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,600
years ago we might have gone out
for a A5 hour run with a single 

741
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:14,400
Snickers bar, which is probably 
not the best either. 

742
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:17,080
I did. 
Jolly Ranchers. 

743
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:19,240
Jolly Ranchers 'cause it felt 
like you were drinking 

744
00:42:19,240 --> 00:42:23,880
something. 10. 
Calories in. 

745
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:28,480
There. 
Oh my gosh, yeah. 

746
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:33,960
I think giving your, I think 
it's OK to have some guideline. 

747
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,560
Again, going back to the 
guideline versus prescription 

748
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,760
thing, it's like having some 
intentionality with what you're 

749
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,240
doing is not a bad thing. 
But then when it starts going it

750
00:42:43,240 --> 00:42:47,640
over into like the hyper 
optimization of like, oh, and 

751
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,400
this hour I have to do this 
exact prescription. 

752
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:55,000
And it's not like to me then it 
is not taking into account like 

753
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,400
the realities of what could 
happen on race day. 

754
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,400
Like you have a fuel plan and 
you have every hour dialed out 

755
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,000
of every little thing to the 
milligram. 

756
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,920
It's like race day happens hour 
1, something goes S already and 

757
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:09,800
you're like, oh, crap. 
Like my plan went to shit. 

758
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,960
So yeah, it's kind of like, OK, 
if you give yourself ranges and 

759
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:18,440
just allow yourself to have a 
little bit of flexibility with 

760
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,200
some of the like the fueling 
plan stuff, I think that that 

761
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,120
can be helpful. 
Particularly where I see this is

762
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:27,600
sodium sweat testing now, 
because people are like, they 

763
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,640
get their like sodium sweat test
results and they're like, it has

764
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:34,080
to be exactly this every hour. 
And I'm like, no, no, no, like 

765
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,040
you can't, you can't just like 
take those results and be like, 

766
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,520
it's this exact calculation 
every hour because what about 

767
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:42,960
resorbing some sodium back into 
your skin? 

768
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,080
How does your sweat rate change 
over the course of time? 

769
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:50,800
So you have to people are over. 
From my point of view, people 

770
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,920
are overdoing sodium then 
because of these tests because 

771
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,880
they're like, I got to consume 
100% of whatever I'm losing. 

772
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,440
And that's not necessarily how 
we want to approach it. 

773
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,080
So it's like that's where it 
starts to become a little 

774
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:05,560
problematic too, is the 
application of some of the 

775
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:09,720
things that are intending for 
people to maybe hyper optimize. 

776
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:11,800
Yeah. 
And I would think about like as 

777
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,160
an athlete, the way I would 
think about this as a coach is 

778
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,560
like think about what your 
values are like. 

779
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,200
For me, those are excellent 
curiosity and play. 

780
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,320
So like the amount of 
optimization that I want to do 

781
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:28,360
to like take those values boxes 
might look different from 

782
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:30,720
someone else. 
And making sure that you don't 

783
00:44:30,720 --> 00:44:32,800
get like mission creep. 
Because I think if you don't 

784
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:37,080
define your values like ahead of
time, set that line for like, if

785
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,560
I start to feel this way, then 
I'm going to like if I notice I 

786
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,720
am dreading runs, if I am not 
having fun, if I never get out 

787
00:44:43,720 --> 00:44:46,640
with my friends, if I'm doing 
all my runs alone on my 

788
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,400
treadmill so I can hyper control
everything and like take exactly

789
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,960
the sodium and the carbs and 
like just become this really 

790
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,960
soul deadening process. 
If that runs counter to your 

791
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,440
values, it's going to feel bad. 
There might also be other people

792
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:03,080
for whom what is their happy 
place and God's, I hope you're 

793
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,000
very happy together. 
And you know, on the other end, 

794
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:08,800
people can get really loosey 
goosey and then they'll feel 

795
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,360
disappointed when they don't get
the outcomes they want. 

796
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,920
Or they might be leaving 
potential on the table because 

797
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,560
if you're just like Yoloing on 
like a couple, you know, chips 

798
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,440
Ahoy and a prayer, then you're 
also not going to maybe have as 

799
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,480
much fun as you could be having.
So thinking about like, what are

800
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:25,840
my values? 
What is the delineation between 

801
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,720
what I'd be satisfied with and 
like is in alignment with my 

802
00:45:28,720 --> 00:45:30,480
values? 
And where would I maybe 

803
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,680
overshoot that to the detriment 
of like the soul and the fun of 

804
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:36,720
it all? 
And where my eye actually, or on

805
00:45:36,720 --> 00:45:38,920
the other end of the spectrum, 
if you're a little more Chips 

806
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:41,800
Ahoy than sodium bicarb, 
thinking like, what would it 

807
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,320
look like to try to be a bit 
more structured and intentional 

808
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,400
without like turning into a 
robot? 

809
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,520
Yeah, I think that's huge on the
way to look at it too. 

810
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:54,960
And I like using the term like 
don't move the goal posts. 

811
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,840
Like once you set your values or
your race goal or your plan, 

812
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,960
like either moving it backwards 
or forwards, like that's where 

813
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:05,960
you get into trouble because 
you're you're operating with, 

814
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,160
you know, less thoughtfulness, 
less aligned with where you're 

815
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,120
at, mostly based on the vibes in
the feelings thing and some 

816
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:15,240
Chips Ahoy. 
So I think that that's that's 

817
00:46:15,240 --> 00:46:18,000
really good because we all 
probably lie somewhere within 

818
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:24,880
the like 0% X like aim for being
the best in the world to 100% 

819
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:26,120
for the best person in the 
world. 

820
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:30,120
And it's OK to be anywhere on 
that spectrum, especially as 

821
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:32,520
long as you're like aware of 
what you want to get out of this

822
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:35,120
sport. 
Because I think we lose sight 

823
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:39,720
that for the vast majority of 
people, their careers in no way 

824
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:44,160
connected to this sport as well.
And it's like a very fun thing 

825
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:46,080
that they do. 
It's really awesome. 

826
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:49,680
They get to carry their kids 
across the finish line and that 

827
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,560
is really cool. 
And I think the sport on the day

828
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:54,120
does a good job celebrating 
that. 

829
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:58,080
But sometimes in our niche of 
talking to people, we lose sight

830
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,040
of like, yeah, the finish line 
is the goal post. 

831
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:05,600
And if it's in 40 hours or 24 
hours, that's not as big a deal 

832
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,120
as before. 
And it's like, I think giving 

833
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,600
and empowering people when you 
have your goal, like your goal 

834
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,400
is super valid. 
Lean into that, enjoy it. 

835
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:18,600
Like so training run should be 
more enjoyable verse more dread.

836
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,840
And I think that that's a big 
thing that optimization has 

837
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,360
worried me about just with 
athletes and stuff over the past

838
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,920
four or five years, too, is 
like, not every day has to be 

839
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,720
optimized, and in fact, not 
every athlete has to be 

840
00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:32,960
optimized. 
It should be optimized for what 

841
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:36,280
it does for your life on a whole
versus what you're going to run 

842
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:38,840
at your next race. 
Yeah, exactly. 

843
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:42,680
And I think that if you don't do
the hard work of setting those 

844
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:46,240
goals and defining your values, 
then what happens is like, you 

845
00:47:46,240 --> 00:47:49,440
allow bad actors to 
inadvertently set them for you. 

846
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,280
Like supplement companies, 
nutrition companies, like other 

847
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:56,000
people who have things on their 
mind that might not be like a 

848
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:59,680
vested, like just interest in 
Zoe Roams running from the 

849
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:01,640
goodwill of their hearts. 
They're like, we would love to 

850
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:03,720
tell her from overpriced 
broccoli juice. 

851
00:48:03,720 --> 00:48:05,880
Like that would delight and 
tickle us. 

852
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:09,000
And so if we can send her a 
bunch of Instagram ads that make

853
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,840
her feel like she could be 
faster than like, all the 

854
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:14,520
better. 
And so like, knowing where your 

855
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,560
particular vulnerabilities and 
sensitivities are so that you're

856
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,560
aware when people are pitching 
directly into that, whether it's

857
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:24,080
an influencer trying to capture 
your attention, telling you that

858
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:27,120
you need to eat 400 milligrams 
of protein a day, otherwise 

859
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,960
you're not doing menopause right
or trying to sell you bicarb 

860
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,280
broccoli soup. 
Yeah. 

861
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,240
OK. 
I'm, I'm curious now what is one

862
00:48:37,240 --> 00:48:41,520
thing or topic where you've 
either changed your mind on or 

863
00:48:41,720 --> 00:48:44,720
maybe science has come out or 
you've learned more about it and

864
00:48:44,720 --> 00:48:49,760
maybe more accepting to an idea 
or an aspect of I guess in 

865
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:51,680
general the the whole sport. 
But yeah. 

866
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,280
Do you have any that you have on
the tip of your tongue? 

867
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:55,680
Oh gosh, I. 
Could. 

868
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:57,040
Think on that. 
Yeah. 

869
00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,160
Let me think for just a just a 
SEC. 

870
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:00,480
That's a great question because 
we're. 

871
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,440
Both, yeah. 
Well, I think we go, well, one 

872
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,720
thing I was going to say though,
is like when we have a topic 

873
00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:12,480
that we go in to covering on our
podcast, I think we all go in 

874
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:14,920
with a little bit of like our 
own perspective. 

875
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:19,000
And we're kind of like, Oh yeah.
Like I, I think it's this, like 

876
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:20,400
this is what we're going to find
out. 

877
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:23,800
Like when before we do the 
research or we have like our, 

878
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,880
our background influences that 
have influenced us. 

879
00:49:27,240 --> 00:49:31,960
And then when we actually dive 
into it, you're like, you can 

880
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:35,960
gain some like an alternative 
perspective that you didn't 

881
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:40,200
realize was actually there. 
And I know, Zoe, you've said 

882
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:44,280
that a couple of times, like 
when we have gotten on episodes,

883
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:47,160
you're like, Oh my gosh, like I 
came in thinking this, but then 

884
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:49,800
it was more complicated. 
I think one of, I mean, the 

885
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,160
hunger one too, hunger was is 
super. 

886
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:56,920
It's a lot more nuanced and 
complicated than like I even 

887
00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:58,320
thought. 
And that it actually made me 

888
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:02,080
change the way that I chat about
the topic with some of my 

889
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:05,360
athletes that I work with 
one-on-one with because it is so

890
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:09,280
complicated. 
So I think like a lot of topics 

891
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:13,920
that we cover, you know, in 
general, we're learning a lot 

892
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:17,560
more about them than what we 
originally thought even going 

893
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:20,600
into the episode. 
Yeah, I think, you know, for me,

894
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,760
particularly one of the big 
ones, this is from an earlier 

895
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:27,560
episode. 
There's a lot of people making a

896
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:33,080
ton of digital hay over the idea
that females need to train 

897
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:36,240
completely differently and that 
we need to train completely 

898
00:50:36,240 --> 00:50:38,520
differently at different stages 
of life. 

899
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:42,760
And that's not that we shouldn't
adjust and adapt, but you know, 

900
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,200
there's that saying that like 
women are not small men. 

901
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:48,240
And yes, that is true, but also 
women are not blue 

902
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:52,160
hippopotamuses. 
And I think that I asked someone

903
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:55,480
that was raised in an era where 
there wasn't a lot of science 

904
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:57,720
done on women. 
There wasn't a lot of research 

905
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,520
that centered the female 
experience and exercise 

906
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:03,000
Physiology. 
I think that made me and a lot 

907
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,720
of women like me really 
susceptible to the idea that we 

908
00:51:05,720 --> 00:51:09,640
need these hyper specific 
training regimens, diet programs

909
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:12,840
that you can only have have 
exactly 12 grams of fructose in 

910
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:16,440
any 36 hour period on the third 
full moon of the 2nd of March. 

911
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:20,760
And these things that are just 
hyper specific, this sort of buy

912
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:23,760
into the vulnerability and in 
the fundamental truths that like

913
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,720
women haven't been centered in 
science, they haven't been 

914
00:51:26,720 --> 00:51:29,040
centered in medicine. 
There's a lot of very valid 

915
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:32,600
needs, desires and questions 
that haven't been answered. 

916
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:36,800
But a lot of times that void is 
filled by people who also do not

917
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:38,360
have women's best interests at 
heart. 

918
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:42,480
Or maybe they do, but they're 
taking a pretty small and 

919
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:45,920
sometimes shaky base of evidence
and getting way out over their 

920
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,520
evidentiary skis. 
Taking a study that looks at 

921
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:52,840
like 12 women who may or may not
even have like been training or 

922
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:54,400
whatever. 
And then extrapolating that to 

923
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,440
be like, if you're a woman in 
menopause and you're not taking 

924
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:00,760
fish oil every three hours, then
like you're doing it wrong. 

925
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:04,920
And there might be solid 
evidence looking at fish oil, 

926
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:08,640
but the prescriptions get so 
specific and so hyper tailored 

927
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:11,440
in a way that isn't backed up by
the evidence. 

928
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:15,640
And the kind of unsexy truth is 
there's a lot of variation 

929
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:19,400
between individuals that we 
sometimes underestimate and that

930
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:23,720
I think we tend to overestimate 
the variation between sexes. 

931
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:28,400
And that to create this like 
marketplace of hyper specific 

932
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:31,120
women centered training plans, 
women centered diets. 

933
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:33,680
And again, that's not to say 
that there aren't changes and 

934
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:36,520
adaptations that should be made,
but we're all humans. 

935
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:40,360
Guys like you do not need some 
like crazy plant. 

936
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,480
Like even if you are navigating 
menopause, perimenopause, there 

937
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:47,000
are like definitely some 
adjustments and tweaks. 

938
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:50,200
But women have been made to feel
insecure that they're not even 

939
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:52,360
doing being a insecure woman 
right? 

940
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:57,240
And into that space that people 
selling training plans and diet 

941
00:52:57,240 --> 00:53:01,200
pills and menopause supplements 
that simply aren't backed by the

942
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:04,120
preponderance of evidence. 
And I would certainly love to 

943
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:06,440
see the base of evidence get 
stronger. 

944
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:09,440
But with what we have now, I 
think the kind of, like, 

945
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:13,920
fascinating and even more 
sticky, nuanced truth is like, 

946
00:53:14,240 --> 00:53:16,800
humans are humans, you all. 
And like, yes, hormones 

947
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,320
fluctuate. 
But would we have really made it

948
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:23,600
this far as a species if we were
so vulnerable that we needed to 

949
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:26,480
make all these dramatic changes 
the second our estrogen 

950
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:30,400
fluctuates up? 
Yeah, I read Born to Run and it 

951
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:32,800
seems like we're pretty 
resilient for chasing things, 

952
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:33,360
so. 
Yeah. 

953
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:38,320
Yeah, exactly. 
So a couple more topics here. 

954
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:42,720
The first one is what are some 
special considerations for like 

955
00:53:42,720 --> 00:53:45,880
vegetarian and vegan athletes 
that you found? 

956
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,560
And you have a pretty good 
podcast on this too, but just 

957
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:50,240
while we head on it here for a 
second. 

958
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:54,360
Do you have anything 
specifically that you get a lot 

959
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:58,600
of questions about that because 
I could, I mean, that's like I 

960
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:00,280
think a lot of people down the 
vegetarian. 

961
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:04,720
The two that I think come up a 
lot are like iron 

962
00:54:04,720 --> 00:54:08,000
supplementation and I suspect 
something will be along the 

963
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:11,080
lines of like blood test or 
something here, but also like 

964
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:14,000
different types of protein. 
So it's like animal based 

965
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:15,960
protein versus plant based 
protein. 

966
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:21,680
And should that impact how 
athletes change their impact 

967
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:24,720
their diet, I guess in general 
on the the plant based side 

968
00:54:24,720 --> 00:54:26,960
versus the. 
Well, what I usually say about 

969
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:31,520
the plant based athlete diet is 
that it can be done. 

970
00:54:31,720 --> 00:54:38,080
Zoe does it, it can be done, but
you but the volume, you have to 

971
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:41,320
be prepared for the volume of 
food that you need to consume. 

972
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:45,400
And I think a lot of people are,
they just hear like, Oh yeah, I 

973
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:48,280
want to go plant based and then 
they do it and they're like. 

974
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:53,200
Maybe have no idea how much 
nutrition they need or how much 

975
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:56,240
protein they need or whatever. 
And then whenever they learn 

976
00:54:56,240 --> 00:55:00,160
that like, oh wow, like I have 
to eat twice as much tofu 

977
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:04,800
compared to like if I was eating
meat, that gets a little tricky 

978
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:07,880
for them, maybe with their 
protein needs or something. 

979
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:13,280
And so balancing your something 
like protein needs out with the 

980
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:17,080
fiber consumption can be really 
challenging to be able to get 

981
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:21,600
the overall energy requirements 
that you need as a plant based 

982
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:25,760
athlete. 
And then on the iron side of 

983
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:29,920
things, I you, I mean, you're 
right, like I always recommend a

984
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:33,200
blood test before supplementing 
like full iron panel with 

985
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:37,320
ferritin. 
But I think, you know, paying 

986
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:43,120
like understanding that the 
reality is plant based sources 

987
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:46,480
of iron are not absorbed as well
as animal sources. 

988
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:52,000
And so knowing that, then the 
volume of iron foods that you 

989
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:55,920
have to consume also needs to be
higher because that absorption 

990
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:59,080
rate is not as good. 
And a lot of people don't 

991
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:03,560
understand that component and 
they're like, oh, I'm just going

992
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:07,160
to take an iron supplement as a 
supplemental insurance policy. 

993
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:11,560
But the reality is taking too 
much iron or taking iron long 

994
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:15,160
term can also have some 
potential downsides on 

995
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:18,480
inflammation and gut health and 
things like that if you 

996
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:21,000
especially if you don't need it.
So that's where like the blood 

997
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:26,000
test can come in. 
And I think just understanding 

998
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:29,480
like iron itself is the topic we
get like 5 billion questions 

999
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:31,720
about. 
And I think there's just like 

1000
00:56:31,720 --> 00:56:37,640
this lack of people don't fully 
understand the scope of iron, 

1001
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:41,840
iron absorption exercise, like 
causes of low iron, causes of 

1002
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:43,760
high iron. 
Like it's just, it is a 

1003
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:47,680
complicated topic. 
And unfortunately, the way that 

1004
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:51,560
it's either like communicated on
social media or even through a 

1005
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:55,880
medical doctor that might not be
familiar with endurance athletes

1006
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:59,200
and iron, they just get an 
answer like, oh, well, you run, 

1007
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:01,840
this is normal. 
Go take an iron supplement. 

1008
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:05,560
You know, it's just like, it's 
unsatisfying, unfortunately, 

1009
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:09,160
because then you don't get the 
nuanced explanation, which is 

1010
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:11,280
why people have so many 
questions about it. 

1011
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:13,880
And I think, you know, like 
highly mentioned, the protein 

1012
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:15,960
piece, people can run into 
trouble. 

1013
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:19,320
And I've, you know, I've seen 
this myself, but we see a lot 

1014
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:21,800
like people who are interested 
in plant based might index even 

1015
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:25,000
higher in terms of people who 
are really interested in and or 

1016
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:27,000
hyper vigilant around food 
nutrition. 

1017
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:30,120
And so we'll get a lot of DMS 
from people that are like, I'm 

1018
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:32,480
vegetarian, but I don't want to 
eat processed foods. 

1019
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:35,520
How do I get enough protein? 
And it's like, girl, they're 

1020
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:38,600
just may not beans may not be 
the answer to all of your 

1021
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:41,480
problems. 
And so sometimes helping people 

1022
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:45,200
understand like things like a 
protein supplement can have, can

1023
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:48,000
and should, I think for a lot of
athletes, potentially serve a 

1024
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:50,840
function and plugging any of 
those holes that you might not 

1025
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:54,200
be able to reach without way 
overdoing it on fiber in terms 

1026
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:57,840
of the protein. 
And I say this with love to my 

1027
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:01,160
fellow plant eaters and 
Triceratopsis out there, but 

1028
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:05,440
there's this idea that has been 
kicking around like the Internet

1029
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:08,600
and like the Scott Jurich of it 
all into the game changers of it

1030
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:11,400
all that like being plant based 
to somehow performance 

1031
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:13,440
enhancing. 
And we don't have that evidence.

1032
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:17,360
Like I have chosen to eat this 
way because of my lifestyle and 

1033
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:19,160
values. 
And I think that's a super valid

1034
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:22,160
reason. 
But the, and I don't, we just, I

1035
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:25,880
think that media and people need
to be honest that like promoting

1036
00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:28,320
eating plant based as 
performance enhancing. 

1037
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:30,000
We do not have that base of 
evidence. 

1038
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:32,680
We can say it may not hurt your 
performance and that's great. 

1039
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,000
That's like plenty, you know, 
for a lot of folks. 

1040
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:38,840
But telling people that they'll 
become a modern day gladiator if

1041
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:42,360
they start eating only kale 
tomorrow is, is not it. 

1042
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:46,240
And so I think being honest 
about like the why and the how 

1043
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:47,800
behind the diet is super 
important. 

1044
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:52,400
Yeah, OK, last topic here, but 
it's a big one. 

1045
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:56,480
How do you guys chat with 
runners or athletes, people in 

1046
00:58:56,480 --> 00:59:00,760
the endurance space about weight
loss in conjunction with their 

1047
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:02,880
running? 
Like a lot of people get into 

1048
00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:06,880
running in this sport to be 
healthier, but then it's also 

1049
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:09,960
very tricky as well. 
So how do you broach this topic?

1050
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:14,080
Oh gosh. 
Well, you have another hour. 

1051
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:17,920
I'll like you since you. 
I feel like I mostly do. 

1052
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:21,560
I get a lot of emails from folks
and I'm like, I have a poetry 

1053
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:25,280
degree, so. 
I mean, I mean, it is a 

1054
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:32,240
complicated topic because, you 
know, looking at we externally, 

1055
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:36,040
there's a lot of pressure to, 
for people to maybe look a 

1056
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:41,480
certain way or what they think 
is like an ideal racing weight 

1057
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:45,600
or weigh a certain amount or 
their doctor just says lose 

1058
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:47,680
weight. 
And it's just, you know, not 

1059
00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:53,080
there's no context given there. 
And I think the important piece 

1060
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:56,440
is that there is a conversation 
being had as to like, why do you

1061
00:59:56,440 --> 00:59:59,320
want to lose weight? 
I mean, when I get into that 

1062
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:02,440
conversation with people, that's
where I start to learn a little 

1063
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:05,160
bit more around. 
You know, would this be 

1064
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:08,640
appropriate or not? 
Because if it's £5 to try and 

1065
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:13,040
shave off 30 seconds of your 
marathon time or something like,

1066
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:17,520
that's maybe not appropriate. 
I agree. 

1067
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:20,600
Yeah, if it's. 
If it's time based body 

1068
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:22,640
composition changes, probably 
not great. 

1069
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:25,760
Yes. 
Risky whereas doing things like 

1070
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:28,480
improving diet quality, 
improving sleep, like there are 

1071
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:31,800
so many things that can be 
performance enhancing that don't

1072
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:35,320
have the downside of a potential
devastating bone injury that 

1073
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:39,560
like, let's look at those first.
And I think one of my goals with

1074
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:43,680
the project is like, can we 
like, what would it look like to

1075
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:47,080
create a world where if that was
something that someone freely 

1076
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:49,640
chose for themselves? 
And like, I'm not like, I am a 

1077
01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:53,600
big believer in body liberation 
and autonomy. 

1078
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:56,680
And so it's never correct for me
to tell someone what is or isn't

1079
01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:58,680
okay to think or feel about 
their body. 

1080
01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:02,360
But my question to everyone who 
is thinking and feeling badly 

1081
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:04,760
about their body is how much of 
that is you? 

1082
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:06,720
And how much of that is this 
exterior? 

1083
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:09,680
And what would it look like to 
create this culture where you 

1084
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:13,400
could maybe for the first time, 
have your own actual thoughts 

1085
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:16,520
and feelings about your body 
that aren't 100% seated by a 

1086
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:20,840
culture with a vested interest 
and making you hate yourself and

1087
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:23,840
dislike yourself? 
And particularly for people of 

1088
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:26,520
marginalized identities, whether
it's like a racial, 

1089
01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:29,880
socioeconomic, gender 
background, like we're getting 

1090
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:32,640
yelled at all the time that the 
way we show up in the world is 

1091
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:36,000
fundamentally not OK. 
And So what would it look like 

1092
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:39,480
to come in from the number one 
assumption being like you are OK

1093
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:41,880
as you are, What do you want to 
do next? 

1094
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:44,960
Because so often people start 
with the assumption of like, I'm

1095
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:49,040
not OK as I am, and therefore 
what I want to do next is shrink

1096
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:51,840
my body. 
And that is not always and is 

1097
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:55,440
honestly a lot of times and 
rarely the best next thing to do

1098
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:58,240
about that. 
And so for me, it's like, can we

1099
01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:01,840
create the place where we can 
actually have an honest, open 

1100
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:04,520
and genuine conversation? 
Because I think the water that 

1101
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:08,320
we're swimming in right now as a
culture is so murky that we're 

1102
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:11,480
not making super rational 
decisions and we're not even 

1103
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:13,120
making these decisions for 
ourselves. 

1104
01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:16,320
So many of the times we're 
letting culture and social media

1105
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:20,920
and companies and all manner 
like RFK Junior dictate these 

1106
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:23,680
goals for us rather than getting
curious about what our own 

1107
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:26,800
values and objectives are and 
then acting accordingly. 

1108
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:29,800
Yeah, no kidding. 
Wow. 

1109
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:31,760
Well, thank you guys for 
joining. 

1110
01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:35,880
I think if so, I, I was going to
ask what your favorite episode 

1111
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:38,200
for people to listen to the your
diet sucks podcast. 

1112
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:41,280
But I also think it's pretty fun
to go to the page and scroll 

1113
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:44,560
through and just click one that 
interests you because it's like 

1114
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:49,080
laid out the topic or the diet 
or any, anything that you talk 

1115
01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:51,160
about. 
And like there's even 1, I think

1116
01:02:51,160 --> 01:02:52,480
you did one on game changers 
too. 

1117
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:55,080
So it's like you can, you can 
learn about most of the things 

1118
01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:57,000
we talked about here and just 
click one. 

1119
01:02:57,000 --> 01:02:59,400
That's interesting. 
But I guess I will ask what 

1120
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:01,960
what's your favorite, most 
interesting one that you got to 

1121
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:06,000
research along the way? 
I really did like the calorie 

1122
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:08,560
counting episodes. 
I went in thinking like, this is

1123
01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:10,080
going to be a lot of boring 
math. 

1124
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:15,040
But the history was fascinating.
And I think that it sort of goes

1125
01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:17,880
to show that so many things that
we think are really objective 

1126
01:03:17,880 --> 01:03:20,680
measures of what's going on 
inside our bodies are so much 

1127
01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:24,280
more proximate and messy than we
think them be. 

1128
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:27,520
And so, you know, our culture 
has this propensity to sort of 

1129
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:32,640
project security and surety onto
numbers and metrics in a way 

1130
01:03:32,640 --> 01:03:35,520
that's not always appropriate 
and based in the evidence. 

1131
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:38,320
And so I think the calorie 
counting episode is a really 

1132
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:42,560
powerful example of the ways in 
which that sort of logic breaks 

1133
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:45,520
down. 
I kind of like some of the ones 

1134
01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:50,800
that we do on some actually on 
like supplements or like like 

1135
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:53,600
specific supplements like 
ketones or something or 

1136
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:57,280
cannabis. 
We did an episode where I am 

1137
01:03:57,600 --> 01:04:00,880
maybe not quite as familiar with
like some of the history behind 

1138
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:02,680
some of these things and where 
they come from. 

1139
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:08,080
And I really like how we set up 
our episodes to have that 

1140
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:12,160
component so that people can 
make that connection of like, 

1141
01:04:12,160 --> 01:04:15,280
where does this come from? 
And maybe I need to think about 

1142
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:18,880
it a little bit more critically 
than I have been thinking about 

1143
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:22,640
it particularly. 
I'm not saying pro or anti 

1144
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:27,280
cannabis, but like in that world
with like the drug testing and 

1145
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:30,640
all that kind of stuff, it was 
interesting to look at the 

1146
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:33,200
history of where that came from 
and where we are at now. 

1147
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:37,000
Yeah, Yeah, totally. 
I mean, I think all of these 

1148
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:39,720
things, it's so interesting. 
And one thing that stood out 

1149
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:43,200
earlier is when you talked about
how science and some of this 

1150
01:04:43,200 --> 01:04:47,680
stuff moves way slower than we 
think, just with how things get 

1151
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:49,680
out there. 
And I think that's just really 

1152
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:52,160
important if people hold on to 
one thing, don't have to 

1153
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:56,200
remember 1 Fact is, like a lot 
of the things that worked 5 or 

1154
01:04:56,200 --> 01:05:00,000
10 years ago, like a variation 
of them probably is still 

1155
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:02,040
working because science supports
it. 

1156
01:05:02,040 --> 01:05:07,080
It's pretty rare we get some 
yeah, we're not getting so 

1157
01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:09,640
dramatically wrong. 
Like squares are now faster on 

1158
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:15,440
cars than wheels are so. 
Which is part of like, if the 

1159
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:18,040
Internet were to be believed, it
would be like, if you're not 

1160
01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:20,360
using square wheels, you're an 
idiot. 

1161
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:23,200
So. 
That's the hardest thing. 

1162
01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:24,600
About. 
Square wheels. 

1163
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:27,600
That's the hardest thing in all 
this messaging. 

1164
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:30,200
And like there's so many things 
on like a hook in your video. 

1165
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:33,480
Is it like makes you feel like 
an idiot if you're not doing the

1166
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:35,240
thing that the video is telling 
you. 

1167
01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:38,320
And to everyone out there, 
you're not an idiot. 

1168
01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:40,440
You are. 
You're pretty darn smart on your

1169
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:43,120
own. 
Don't let a 15 second video 

1170
01:05:43,120 --> 01:05:45,640
influence how you think about 
yourself or what you're doing 

1171
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:50,080
because it got you this far. 
Thank you guys for joining. 

1172
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:52,520
This was awesome and thanks for 
putting up with all my 

1173
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:58,880
questions. 
Thank you for listening to the 

1174
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:01,240
show. 
Go check out the Your Diet Sucks

1175
01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:04,120
podcast. 
I actually learned a ton in 

1176
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:08,400
researching this episode. 
It's not just the hour a week or

1177
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:12,160
the two hours a week, I guess 
now that I put out to you guys, 

1178
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:16,680
it's I spend like probably three
to five hours researching 

1179
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:19,560
episodes as well. 
So that's a lot. 

1180
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:21,840
But I feel like. 
You know, I come into this and 

1181
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:25,480
I'm nervous for every single 
interview, but by arming myself 

1182
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:29,840
with some knowledge, how these 
how guests talk, what kind of 

1183
01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:32,920
topics they gravitate, they 
gravitate to stories. 

1184
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:36,240
It helps me have like this 
backstop of information or 

1185
01:06:36,240 --> 01:06:41,400
questions that I can lean on if 
it's gets overwhelming or my 

1186
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:44,640
anxiety takes over. 
And it's like talking to people.

1187
01:06:44,960 --> 01:06:48,720
I mean, I started this to get 
better at the act of engaging 

1188
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:50,680
with people, talking and telling
stories. 

1189
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:53,200
And I feel like we've gotten 
there. 

1190
01:06:53,200 --> 01:06:56,400
So if you think so, maybe leave 
a comment that you enjoy the 

1191
01:06:56,400 --> 01:07:01,160
show because man, sometimes it's
overwhelming to press record, 

1192
01:07:01,480 --> 01:07:05,760
start recording and just put 
something out in the world. 

1193
01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:09,560
And then once you publish it, 
it's like out there, people can 

1194
01:07:09,560 --> 01:07:12,320
listen and feel a certain way. 
And sometimes I'm quite 

1195
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:15,320
vulnerable and sometimes that's 
overwhelming. 

1196
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:19,160
But I hope you guys enjoy it. 
I do this because. 

1197
01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:22,320
I want to get better and I want 
to encourage everyone to do the 

1198
01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:25,920
thing that makes them 
uncomfortable because for me 

1199
01:07:26,360 --> 01:07:29,960
it's not Backpacking in grizzly 
country makes me a little 

1200
01:07:29,960 --> 01:07:33,240
worried or nervous. 
It's engaging and talking with 

1201
01:07:33,240 --> 01:07:36,600
people. 
Most my 20s I spent living 

1202
01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:40,280
alone, solitary. 
I threw hiked and backpacked 

1203
01:07:40,360 --> 01:07:46,160
21,000 miles from 20 to 30. 
Maybe even more actually. 

1204
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:49,320
But I didn't talk to a ton of 
people. 

1205
01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:51,880
I don't have and build a ton of 
friends or have many 

1206
01:07:51,880 --> 01:07:54,360
relationships. 
In fact, for over half that time

1207
01:07:54,360 --> 01:07:57,280
I didn't even have a car. 
So I hitchhiked a lot. 

1208
01:07:57,840 --> 01:08:01,920
So in my 30s, I'm working on 
this social aspect, engaging 

1209
01:08:01,920 --> 01:08:04,920
with the world, embracing what 
makes us human, and that is 

1210
01:08:04,920 --> 01:08:08,120
emotions, that is differing 
opinions, and that is 

1211
01:08:08,120 --> 01:08:10,720
acceptance. 
And we really need to change 

1212
01:08:10,720 --> 01:08:14,360
this world because I cannot 
believe what's happening in the 

1213
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:18,279
United States and over in 
Europe, people were so nice, but

1214
01:08:18,279 --> 01:08:21,240
they were also so concerned for 
what's happening out here. 

1215
01:08:21,399 --> 01:08:25,840
So with that, I just encourage 
you to vote or volunteer or give

1216
01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:30,359
money or whatever that may be, 
or use our public lands and 

1217
01:08:30,359 --> 01:08:33,520
engage with them, help do trail 
work, whatever it may be. 

1218
01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:38,439
Try to embrace the things that 
make things amazing and then 

1219
01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:42,160
donate a little time, energy, 
effort, or money into changing 

1220
01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:45,920
things that I think the vast 
majority of us are frustrated 

1221
01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:48,760
about. 
All right, with that, thank you 

1222
01:08:48,760 --> 01:08:51,000
for listening. 
Stay leap, my friends.