This is. Sustainability forward with
Rishi. And Carmini.
Welcome to Sustainability Forward.
We have a new episode, Carmini. You will remember in one of the
previous episodes, we looked at the carbon footprint of an
individual and we broke it down into some meaningful categories.
And the top category that came out was transport.
And it appeared from the data that transport dominates whether
it's your car or your flights, it really dominates an
individual's carbon footprint. But very close to that was home,
right? And, and everything that
surrounds this entity called home.
And unlike transport where behavior change is needed, where
infrastructure change is needed, it might take years before any
meaningful change can be noticed.
Whereas if you think about your building, there are many things
that you can actually do about it from a carbon footprint
perspective if you really intended to do so, right?
So today our intention is to go a little bit deeper into that.
What can households do? What can businesses do in terms
of reducing their carbon footprint?
And we'll also take a look at what technologies are readily
available and what is still getting in the way of actually
achieving these things. And to do that, we have a
fantastic guest. Carmen, would you please
introduce him? Yes, thank you, Rishi.
And I'm very happy to introduce today Ascano Vitale.
Ascano is an expert in sustainability science with more
than 30 years of experience in environmental advocacy and
practical technical urbanization, is a dual
background in aerospace and electronic engineering, has
worked as a climate energy energy company for the
Greenpeace and WWF, served as ACOP delegate and has altered
papers for the European Commission.
Since 26. He has founded and directed Stop
CO2 where he provides sustainability and energy
consulting services and assigns ultra efficient buildings.
He also contributed to development of one of the most
advanced carbon footprint calculation platforms for a
commercial aviation which received the European Seal of
Excellence in 2017. He also served for six years as
a board member for Population Matters and he rides widely on
sustainability, including through is sub stocks newsletter
sustainability bills that they received every Saturday is one
of my, let's say every Friday. Sorry, every Friday morning in
my mailbox. And I truly like it.
So ask annual. Thank you so much for coming to
Sustainability Forward. Thank you, Carmi, Thanks for
having me and thank you Rishi. Great, Kenya again, great to
have you. Let's start with the big picture
first. The headline number that we
often hear is that buildings account for roughly 40% of
global energy consumption. Yet even in this kind of massive
energy consumption, the pace of retrofit and the improvements in
energy efficiency still feel to be very, very slow.
In your opinion, what is the honest assessment of where we
stand today in terms of improvements of efficiency and
retrofit in buildings? Yeah, sure.
It's not just about the energy consumption.
It's, it's of course it's linked to global emissions.
So buildings around the world account for about 15% of global
emissions. And when it comes to electricity
as well in it's about 55%. And waste construction and
demolition account, at least in the EU, according to the
European Commission, about around a third, 36% to precise
of our global of the European waste.
So it's, it's a huge footprint, whether it's material emissive
or energy footprint. So it's, it's definitely has to
be addressed and has to be addressed faster than most of
other solutions because as you say, it's predominant, it's very
relevant. The problem is, I mean, if you,
if you consider that about 85% of buildings, at least I'm
talking about the EU, because this is where my, my job focuses
most on more than 85% of the buildings were built before
2001. So they were built according to
lower standards and, and in a complete different world and
they're going to be still standing in 2050.
So if we're going towards net zero, we're definitely missing
the point when it comes to the building industry.
If you add to that, that we are, we are retrofitting and building
new buildings up around 1% of the total of the total market.
So it's very slow. We've been, it's going to take
100 years to retrofit or to build new buildings, more
efficient buildings. The pace that it's, it's been
forecasted as ideal by the European Commission with the
EPPD, the European, sorry, EBPD, the European Building
Performance Directive, it's around 3%.
So we are like a third of the pace that we should assume here
in the UK, in the EU. Adding to that, every
intervention is around 99% is a retrofit and 1% is a new build.
So I must specify that in in a sort of an ecological point of
view, the new bills are more impactful than retrofits which
should focus on retrofit and we are doing it right now.
But retrofits are more cost and more costly for land owners are
more difficult. You know it, it's more difficult
to, to save energy retrofitting on old buildings rather than
building a new one, but it definitely reduces the amount of
energy, the embodied carbon and the materials that have been
that have been used during the intervention.
So it is the right way, but we're doing it too slow.
So what are the main constraints?
I believe the first one is the high upfront cost, which is what
I in 20 years that I've been doing retrofits around Europe
and not only there, I can feel that the first reaction whether
it's luxury or middle class or social housing, the typical
approach is why do I have to spend this much.
But it's a, it's a typical thing that actually it's reflected in
any kind of transition solution. We have to invest when it comes
to innovation, we have to invest in upfront cost in order to
adopt new more efficient solutions that actually pay back
with time. So the problem is when you don't
have the the cash we do, you don't have the money to invest
and three times you don't have the will so much because I had
clients who spent more on the base than they spent on the
heating system of their own, their own home.
But it, whether it's cultural or structural, it's still a big
problem and it can be addressed. But it needs, you know, policy
needs right governance, it needs information, education.
And it's a, it's a, it's a mix of solution that must be applied
and we're not doing it effectively.
The second I believe could be the low owner awareness.
I mean, there are people who are building or retrofitting their
own home, but there are also many landlords that are building
to sell or building to rent. And that's a complete different
approach and a complete different perception of on how
to spend the money when you're building a retrofitting a
building. Because when you're renting
mainly you, you think that the utilities are going to be paid
by the tenants. So why do I have to spend in
giving them an efficient building when it's only a
benefit for them? The third one we're starting, I
mean, as the pace of the retrofit is increasing, even
though it's increasing very slowly, there's a lack of
skilled labor. And I'm not talking about only
engineers and architects. I'm talking about the
installers, the contractors. I'm talking about the supply
chain problem that it's not only about the cost that can be and
it, it has been rising in the past during the pandemic and
it's rising again now as the rest of the world is starting to
adapt into the new transition solutions.
But it's also the cost of scaffolding, It's a cost of
cement, the cost of, of timber of copper pipes.
So it's, it's a, it's a trouble as well when it comes to heat
pumps because the biggest, the biggest vendors are Korean, are
Asian, are Chinese or Japanese. And we are, we have in Europe,
we have some producer, but they still rely on Asian supplies.
So when the supply chain starts to be constrained by high demand
or problems like the energy crisis right now and you know,
the straight of our moods that stops any kind of supply being
being brought to Europe from Asia.
The the cost of the retrofit skyrockets and people even stop
their own retrofit sometimes. So let's try to to summarize the
three pointer you said as can. So one was the the cost, the
high retrofit cost that you mentioned, the awareness
problem, I call it probably also the you have many different
stakeholders, different motivation, different reason why
to do it. And you mentioned the supply
chain. Now I think it's a good moment
to start probably splitting this problem between household
private ownership versus commercial building.
Because I think the second point that you mentioned, different
stakeholders, different motivation, different way to
look at where I spend the money, how I spend the money, how I can
get money to build this kind of business case.
Let's start with the households. For an individual or homeowner
or even a family living in a home, why should they care about
improving the footprint of their houses?
Other than doing that, I think what's their motivation?
Well, there is one which is probably the the most important
one and it's straightforward. It's to contain energy bills.
As I said, even though it seems costly to, to undertake a high
energy retrofit, higher energy efficiency retrofit, it pays
back and it pays back very quickly.
Regardless the the presence of incentives which you know
contain the, the up from cost. But the the payback is insured
by the fact that heat pumps, for example, they consume about
6570% less energy than than a gas boiler.
Insulating the house contains energy.
Installing renewables on site reduces the cost of the of of
the energy bills. Because a buying a solar panel,
whether it's solar thermal or solar photovoltaic, it means
spending not much on efficiency. It can be compared to buying a
batch of highly discounted energy for 3025, thirty years.
So it seems a lot. But then if you take into
account that on average you pay around if when you buy solar PV
and you install it on your house, you are paying the
kilowatt hours around 4 euro cent per kilowatt compared to a
market price of around 304025. It depends, you know, on the
energy, on the, on the state, on the country, you're paying it.
But it's, it's definitely, I mean, containing energy bills
means not only paying less, but also being more resilient to
cost oscillation. So as the gas cost, the gas
prices rise, the percentage that you're paying, if you are
keeping, you're just insulating the house and you're keeping a
gas boiler, you're spending less in gas, which means the marginal
increase of your bill. It's lower than other people
with a less insulated house. It's, I mean, if you compare a
Class A building with a class E or F, which is the average in
Europe, we're talking about on, on the real use case, even
though in theory it's even more better than the real use case.
It's around 40 to 70% of savings on energy bills.
So it's helping, if not, you know, reducing by 2/3 the energy
cost and the energy cost it's about, you know, it's, it's a
very high in cost voice in the in the family budget.
Yeah. And getting higher everyday
given today's environment now as Kenya, there is of course an
element of you know what type of building you are in, what is the
condition and what not. But as a home owner, what is
kind of the recipe? Is there a logical sequence of
things to to follow or, or is there nothing like that in this
area? Is there like a framework or
something that they can think about when they want to improve,
improve the footprint of their house?
Sure, let's not forget it. It's not just about energy, it's
also about improving comfort, improving wholesomeness of the
indoor environment. When I was leading the energy
campaigning with WWF in Italy, I remember that WWF was producing
up research on blood from of housemaids and people working on
industrial sites and working outdoor.
And people living indoor had more polluted blood than living
people living outdoor. Mainly outdoor because when you
open your windows, you actually accumulate pollution from the
outdoor environment. And these are micro dust that
deposit onto the ground. And when you Hoover your place,
the filter of your Hoover doesn't filter out micro dust,
so you actually just raise rising them on in the
environment and breathing them out.
So you're the and added to that, their use of synthetic materials
for insulation, it increases pollutants sometimes because the
the walls are actually transpirating, they're
breathing, they're not a complete sealed environment.
So the air coming in, it mixes with contaminants and addictive
additives added to the synthetic materials that evaporate with
time. So it's very important to
understand that it's, it's a matter of energy, it's a matter
of wholesomeness, it's a matter of innovation, because getting a
house future proof helps containing costs in the, in the
future and reduces the amount of, of operating and maintenance
costs as well. What is the, there's a, there is
a structure approach, There is a logic of how to intervene, but
it's not always the same. It depends on the climate, it
depends on the budget of the client.
It depends on, on many other factors.
But mainly you should typical engineering approach is to
contain the energy consumption first.
So it's about insulating your house and there are priorities
as well when you insulate how a home because you have to take
into account that heat tends tends to rise upwards.
So containing the insulating the roof is the first thing to do
because it's, it's around 60% of the heat that you lose from from
a home. Then you go on to perimeter
walls and windows and then the basement.
Of course, there's a, there's a discussion to to be done in
getting more details about air tightness.
But let's start with insulation. The second step would be
changing the technology with, with which you heat and cool and
produce hot water in the house, because that's the main energy
cost in the home. Don't forget in generally in, I
mean it changes with the with climate, but generally about 80%
of the consumption in the home is thermal consumption.
So it's hot water, it's heating and cooling and about 20% is the
General Electric consumption. So it's appliances, your hair
dryer, your TV, your computer and so on, lighting and so on.
Changing from a gas boiler to a heat pump, as I said, off if not
more, it reduces a lot the the energy consumption.
Yeah, the third one would be start to produce on site part of
your energy. So using solar thermals or APV,
maybe even micro wind installations.
Don't forget that heat pumps themselves are a renewable
energy generator because when they produce the heating or the
cooling or the heat up the the water that you use in your sink
or in your shower, they use about 3, three, fourth of the
energy. It's coming from the outside air
or the ground or a close lake or torrent or a river or whatever.
So it the the heat pump. So right, renewable energy
generator, because it grows energy from the environment and
uses to add it to a small addition of electricity.
You know, the smart home solutions, smart technologies,
they can contribute to, to close the loop.
Because it has been demonstrated that even monitoring your
consumption with a smart meter, when you look at how much you're
consuming every second, you know, you know that you're
consuming 10P an hour or P an hour of €50 cent.
I'm sorry, I'm in the UK, but this kind of kind of monitoring
helps changing the behavior within the home.
And it's, it's been demonstrated that it reduces the energy
consumption by 5 to 15%, even 17 in some cases.
It can be arranged even in offices, not only in homes.
And there are, there have been offices in the United States
that did in each floor of the of the building, they did a
competition of which floor was the most efficient one with
prizes. So it was an incentive for
employees to save energy to switch off their computer, to
switch off to to lower the temperature of the the cooling
system or switching off lights and so on.
So let's can you. What I like about this
discussion is that sometimes energy efficiency is not the
sexiest topic in energy. But actually there are some
really practical things to do. Technology is there and really
probably simple to do it and quite accessible.
In the previous episode, for example, we talked about the
pumps. I had also my own example
summarizing the 4th point that you said.
So insulation, hot water cell production, smart technology.
I jump directly to the second one to the pump.
But you made me think that probably insulation is something
that we need to probably prioritize if possible.
Now I live in France, so I enjoyed what is the tax benefit
here for in selling it pumps, getting some grants.
Many countries have different kind of strategies.
So subsidies, mortgage, green mortgages, tax benefits.
Do you think this is working? Is the right way to incentivize?
Are we still missing something to really incentivize early
adopters going to mass market? There are, there are some good,
you know, best practices around Europe that could be a good
example for many, for many politicians around Europe,
around the world, but not all of them work very well.
They're effective in some use cases, they're they're not in
others. So I believe that there's, it's
quite a complicated discussion, but the, the basic principle is
a rotational fund would be a very interesting point to start
from. And it's it's very complicated
to do it when it's easier with companies.
It's more complicated to do it with households.
But it's it's about anticipating the upfront cost to to whomever
has to intervene with the retrofit or new, new build.
In Italy, for example, if you've got an incentive that is
proportional to the expense, so it gives you back as a tax
credit for five years and sometimes less about 5055% of
your investment, it's a very good incentive because it's
proportional to the to the cost. So it works in any kind of size
of retrofit, but it doesn't work really well when it comes to
middle class, low income family or even social housing.
Because if you don't have the money, it's not important how
much you get back. You don't just can't start your
own breath of it. So the rotational funds are
different because it's, it's a sort of a lease, It's lending
the money that you need to do the intervention.
Then you pay back with your bills with time instead of
paying with tax credits. Because some people, for
example, have retired people that they don't pay income tax.
So a tax credit would be completely useless.
England, we've got a different one, which is a one off figure.
It's very interesting. It's about 75 changing from a
gas boiler to a heat boiler, electric boiler to a heat pump.
And it pays back the extra cost of a heat pump and it pays even
more. I mean you, you get money to to
start paying your retrofit other than just the heat.
And it works really well for low income families.
It's very interesting. But as soon as you start
increasing the the size and think about a landlord who has a
big building and he's investing into a bill to rent or a bill to
sell and he wants to put up a heat pump and he's looking for
some incentive to help him out. Well, 7500 lbs for an entire
building is just a small fraction of the cost.
So I believe that the best solution would be analyzing all
the best practice and try to learn and absorb parts of the
rationale that is behind this governance and start thinking
about more about the income of, of the, the people who are doing
the retrofit rather than the expense of the, of the retrofit
itself. Because as I said, the problem
of that from cost rises as you lower the income of the owners.
That reduction, sorry, VAT reduction, is another kind of
incentive that could be adopted because it's easier for the
politicians to do it. Yeah.
And now if we extend this thinking from sort of individual
houses etcetera to what the commercial building sector is
facing, what's your perspective on that as Kenya?
There is the problem with the split incentives owner does it,
tenant benefits from energy in individual homes.
You've sort of outlined other considerations, but how do we
crack the problem of commercial buildings?
Yeah, that's, that's, it's not only commercial buildings.
I mean, if you the commercial buildings, you, you include the
owners who are renting the tuned Wow, there's yes, that's a big
deal. I mean, I live in a rent I I
rent right now and my land landlord wasn't very keen on on
changing my gas boiler with a with a heat pump.
Luckily I found an energy supplier gives me 100% bio gas,
but it's, you know, it's a virtual benefit.
It's not a real one because I'm still emitting CO2 locally.
So what, what can be done? I mean, what I have tried to to
tell him is I can contribute to part of the retrofit because
part of the benefit falls into onto my own.
But I try to let him understand that he actually it's a benefit
that comes that goes to that. I mean, it's a benefit for him
as well, because future proofing the house means that he can
raise the rent for to to other people in the future and
increase his margin on on the House.
It's even more visible when when it comes to offices.
For example, most offices, at least here in the UK, is less
frequent in Italy and Southern Europe.
But they pay the rent, including the energy bills.
So in this kind of forfeit case, it's even the tenant is not keen
on on doing any retrofit because he says I'm already paying a
fixed price. Why should I care?
So in but in this case, it's the owner who has the the higher
benefit. Because what I tell them is if
you retrofit your own office, you actually, you're increasing
your, your margins because you can, you know, not rise the, the
rent and, and have the people staying more longer for, in your
building while you're increasing your rent because the actual
real, the real bill goes down. And so there are, there are ways
to do it. There are, there can be special
incentives. I will talk.
I was talking about the VAT reduction, which is still
attractive for some land owners. There are European directives
that actually oblige the landlords to, to retrofit their
own buildings. It's kind of a slow directive.
And that's, that's a bigger discussion about the political
will and the political ideology and how they, they influence
the, the governance on, on energy efficiency.
But I believe that most of the contribution would come from
governance. So we need to oblige to do it
because it's something that reflects back onto social cost.
Our taxes pay for all the externalities of our energy
consumption. So whether it's pollution from
gas boiler, which reflects on to health, health care costs
because it produces pathologies, it kills people around the
world, it's it degrades monument, it kills biodiversity,
but it's also the cost of dangerous climate change events.
And these are all paid by everyone in, in our taxes.
So there must be a way, there should be a way to let everybody
comply to, to the transition because it's it benefits
everybody. What was that?
Carminate the The Tragedy of the Commons?
I think it was one of the episodes we did related to what
you're what you're what you've just mentioned.
Yes. And actually we talk about
behaviours, we talk about policies.
Now the importance of let's say that the government to shape to
shape. Let's go back a little bit on
the technology angle. We have three engineers here in
the podcast. So we'll also sometimes look
like to go back and look at what is happening in the market.
But I'm interesting asking you to to know from your perspective
what which generally excites you right now.
Probably there are technologies that are ready, deployable or
very close to readiness to go to market that you think they.
Serve much more. Attention that they get right
now. What's your view?
Yes, there are upcoming interesting technologies.
I mean, of course we, you know, everybody going around social
networks or browsing the news, they reads from time to time
about some miraculous solutions, new batteries that works with
water and and so on. I'm generally by quite skeptical
about that. I follow scientific papers, I
follow the the market, I follow vendors and industry instead of
just relying on generalistic media.
So there's a big difference between announcement and what
actually can be scalable, what actually can be reliable in
enough to enter the market and and be this being disruptive for
the market. So I believe that right now
there are two main very interesting technologies that
are very close to to market. And the first one is perovskite.
It's a, it's a different material than the silicon, the
typical silicon that is used in solar PV panels and perovskite.
It actually increases the efficiency by 4050% compared to
the traditional solar PV. That means that we can reach
efficiencies, total efficiencies around 35%.
Right now it's around 2224 and it seems a little marginal
increase, but it's a big contribution.
Just think about utility scale PV which are the most needed
source of energy around the world and it's the fastest 1
rising right now. We actually it took cars around
6570 years to reach a first terawatt around the world and in
about two years where we are reaching the the the second
terawatt. So the the exponential growth of
this solar technology, it drives driving the transition, but it
occupies space. Of course it's a very small
fraction. I mean, it's about 0 point
something percent in depending on the country, but it's a very
small land use. But still if we account that we
with perovskite, we can reduce the surface by 1/3, it means
that we can produce 35% more energy or we can use less land
to produce the same amount of energy with the very comparable
costs. So it's a very interesting
technology and it's not only about utility PV, but it's, I've
got a friend working on research and they're researching
transparent film based on perovskite.
And that means that we we will be able to apply a solar PV
technology on almost anything on a track, on a backpack, on a
device, on windows, in in skyscrapers where it's very
difficult on high rise building to actually have the surface
enough to to auto produce the energy that is consumed by the
building. So using vertical facades helps
integrating the the missing surface.
So there are so many different applications and the problem
right now is not much the energy gain that you get because in lab
tests it's very promising. But right now the problem is
that with UV light, it actually degrades with time faster than
silicon. So they are working on tweaking
the crystals and adding different materials so that
this, these panels can last as much as silicon panels.
But I strongly believe in what the tandem cells are going to be
doing in the next 10-15 years. And I, I guess, I mean, there's
already a Korean company that is building them as producing them.
The big scaling it's going to, it's going to happen in five to
10 years. And tandem cells are very nice
because they apply perovskite over the silicon panels.
So we use traditional technology and we've got the, the
technology, you know, the industry already with all the
machinery needed to, to build it.
We just have to add and deposit a different material and it
increases the, the gain. The second one is batteries.
We don't have to forget the, one of the most important thing when
we increase our energy mix onto variable renewables is that we
need storage on a daily basis and on a long, on long term
seasonal terms. The most important one is the
daily, the daily one and chemical storage is increasing
the the role because the the cost has been falling down.
It's been about 90% in the last 10 years.
It went down. So right now solar PV plus
storage, chemical storage costs less than gas, it costs less
than than coal, wind and solar. Together with storage they can
ensure a very constant supply of energy throughout the day.
So, so it takes off any kind of bulk production.
So I refer to any thermoelectric production which is very
pollutant like coal or gas and nuclear as well which is very
expensive. And with these solutions,
batteries are very important. So right now we are proceeding
towards solid-state batteries. They're going to be having a
very long and much longer life cycle and, and their, their
efficiency, it's increasing right now it's slower than the
lithium one, but it's going to get rid of the critical
material, materials that are difficult to find and costly to
extract. So sodium, for example, can be
derived even from desalina tion plants.
So it's actually it's a benefit because it reduces the impact of
desalina tion, which is increasing around the world for
climate change. So there's a, there's a synergy
between technologies that are very interesting. 22 seconds can
you so do wrap up here we talk about the energy efficiency, we
talk how to accelerate very quickly.
If you can remove you have a magic bond and you can remove
one of the roadblock today to get scale with energy efficiency
in home which one you pick first?
So, behavioral Financial Policy regulation technology.
Yeah. Then there is one that it's been
obtained 20 years anywhere in Europe, a little bit less
elsewhere. But you know in Europe we've got
a very huge historical heritage when it comes to architectural
buildings. So there's a regulatory
constraint that it comes to aesthetics.
So in Italy is very strong. I mean, if you, if you ask to
install a couple of panels over a roof, they're going to start
saying, yeah, but I, I don't have to see it from Rd.
Rd. level. I don't want it to be a
different color because it's ugly.
And it's kind of, I remember discussion with a close friend
of mine, a colleague, an architect, a very, very good
experienced architect. And I was telling him he's an
Austrian guy. And I was telling him in Italy
that the incentive was higher if you flush the panels on into the
roof, a little bit lower if you were putting them on the roof
and even lower if the roof was flat.
So you had to rise the panels over the roof and let them be
more visible. And he said, why do you pay
less? And I said, because, you know,
because they said it's ugly. And why suddenly I would be
proud of installing and showing that my house is actually
innovative. And that's a huge constraint
because many times we we are stopped and we have to wait for
years, sometimes not even months to have the authorization to
proceed. And this is really stupid.
I mean, again, it's ugly. I mean, aesthetics is very
subjective, first of all, but it's, it's nonsense.
So we should adopt and we've got the technology to to reduce this
visual impact, but it's not an environmental impact.
Environmental impact is the gas boiler that I'm going to install
if I don't in solar, Solar thermal panel that produces the
hot water without gas. It's, it's just bonkers, this.
Has been a very rich conversation, so thank you so
much for coming to the show before leaving.
Where can people follow your work?
Well, for Italian speaking audience, I've got the
sustainability deals which is at ascano.substec.com and I as you
said, I mean I'm not very regular.
It depends on how much work I have to do, but I'm trying to be
as regular as I can. It's been going on for a couple
of years and it's gathering interest and I have an audience
that I'm really proud of. And it humbles me because I've
got university professor and EPS, you know, European
Parliament members. I've got lots of researchers and
consultants, but I am starting it in English as well.
So it's at stopco2.subsec.com right now.
There's already a few pills being translated and I'm going
to insist in the future and increase the, the number of
English, English articles. So that's, that's one way.
And you know, follow me on LinkedIn as well.
You can find me on LinkedIn and you can contact me if you need
anything. I'm there for consultancies.
Great. So Cameron, as I said, the
beginning one of our previous episodes told us that buildings
are a big part of the climate challenge.
I think today's episode also highlighted the fact that it's
not just a climate challenge. There are many other challenges
in terms of their footprint that pose, you know, a big problem
for us. But more importantly, we also
learned that there are big opportunities in the building
sector as well with as can. We explored why retrofits are
moving slowly, what households and businesses can actually do
today, where policy, financing, and even your sense of
aesthetics can play a role. And very importantly, we heard
that it is not only about carbon, it is not only about
cost. It also has the aspect of
comfort, health, resilience, and making our homes and workplaces
fit for the future. So for all of that, Ascano,
thank you very much for for joining us on this episode of
Sustainability Forward and Sharing your expertise so, so
generously. And thank you, Carmina, as
always, for for a great conversation and thanks to all
of you around the world for tuning into Sustainability
Forward. Thank you, It's been a pleasure.
Thank you, Richie. Thank you, Scan.