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This is. 
Sustainability forward with 

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Rishi. 
And Carmini. 

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Welcome to Sustainability 
Forward. 

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We have a new episode, Carmini. 
You will remember in one of the 

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previous episodes, we looked at 
the carbon footprint of an 

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individual and we broke it down 
into some meaningful categories.

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And the top category that came 
out was transport. 

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And it appeared from the data 
that transport dominates whether

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it's your car or your flights, 
it really dominates an 

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individual's carbon footprint. 
But very close to that was home,

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right? 
And, and everything that 

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surrounds this entity called 
home. 

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And unlike transport where 
behavior change is needed, where

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infrastructure change is needed,
it might take years before any 

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meaningful change can be 
noticed. 

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Whereas if you think about your 
building, there are many things 

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that you can actually do about 
it from a carbon footprint 

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perspective if you really 
intended to do so, right? 

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So today our intention is to go 
a little bit deeper into that. 

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What can households do? 
What can businesses do in terms 

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of reducing their carbon 
footprint? 

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And we'll also take a look at 
what technologies are readily 

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available and what is still 
getting in the way of actually 

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achieving these things. 
And to do that, we have a 

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fantastic guest. 
Carmen, would you please 

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introduce him? 
Yes, thank you, Rishi. 

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And I'm very happy to introduce 
today Ascano Vitale. 

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Ascano is an expert in 
sustainability science with more

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than 30 years of experience in 
environmental advocacy and 

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practical technical 
urbanization, is a dual 

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background in aerospace and 
electronic engineering, has 

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worked as a climate energy 
energy company for the 

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Greenpeace and WWF, served as 
ACOP delegate and has altered 

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papers for the European 
Commission. 

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Since 26. 
He has founded and directed Stop

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CO2 where he provides 
sustainability and energy 

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consulting services and assigns 
ultra efficient buildings. 

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He also contributed to 
development of one of the most 

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advanced carbon footprint 
calculation platforms for a 

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commercial aviation which 
received the European Seal of 

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Excellence in 2017. 
He also served for six years as 

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a board member for Population 
Matters and he rides widely on 

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sustainability, including 
through is sub stocks newsletter

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sustainability bills that they 
received every Saturday is one 

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of my, let's say every Friday. 
Sorry, every Friday morning in 

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my mailbox. 
And I truly like it. 

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So ask annual. 
Thank you so much for coming to 

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Sustainability Forward. 
Thank you, Carmi, Thanks for 

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having me and thank you Rishi. 
Great, Kenya again, great to 

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have you. 
Let's start with the big picture

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first. 
The headline number that we 

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often hear is that buildings 
account for roughly 40% of 

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global energy consumption. 
Yet even in this kind of massive

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energy consumption, the pace of 
retrofit and the improvements in

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energy efficiency still feel to 
be very, very slow. 

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In your opinion, what is the 
honest assessment of where we 

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stand today in terms of 
improvements of efficiency and 

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retrofit in buildings? 
Yeah, sure. 

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It's not just about the energy 
consumption. 

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It's, it's of course it's linked
to global emissions. 

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So buildings around the world 
account for about 15% of global 

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emissions. 
And when it comes to electricity

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as well in it's about 55%. 
And waste construction and 

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demolition account, at least in 
the EU, according to the 

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European Commission, about 
around a third, 36% to precise 

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of our global of the European 
waste. 

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So it's, it's a huge footprint, 
whether it's material emissive 

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or energy footprint. 
So it's, it's definitely has to 

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be addressed and has to be 
addressed faster than most of 

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other solutions because as you 
say, it's predominant, it's very

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relevant. 
The problem is, I mean, if you, 

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if you consider that about 85% 
of buildings, at least I'm 

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talking about the EU, because 
this is where my, my job focuses

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most on more than 85% of the 
buildings were built before 

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2001. 
So they were built according to 

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lower standards and, and in a 
complete different world and 

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they're going to be still 
standing in 2050. 

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So if we're going towards net 
zero, we're definitely missing 

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the point when it comes to the 
building industry. 

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If you add to that, that we are,
we are retrofitting and building

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new buildings up around 1% of 
the total of the total market. 

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So it's very slow. 
We've been, it's going to take 

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100 years to retrofit or to 
build new buildings, more 

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efficient buildings. 
The pace that it's, it's been 

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forecasted as ideal by the 
European Commission with the 

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EPPD, the European, sorry, EBPD,
the European Building 

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Performance Directive, it's 
around 3%. 

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So we are like a third of the 
pace that we should assume here 

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in the UK, in the EU. 
Adding to that, every 

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intervention is around 99% is a 
retrofit and 1% is a new build. 

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So I must specify that in in a 
sort of an ecological point of 

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view, the new bills are more 
impactful than retrofits which 

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should focus on retrofit and we 
are doing it right now. 

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But retrofits are more cost and 
more costly for land owners are 

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more difficult. 
You know it, it's more difficult

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to, to save energy retrofitting 
on old buildings rather than 

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building a new one, but it 
definitely reduces the amount of

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energy, the embodied carbon and 
the materials that have been 

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that have been used during the 
intervention. 

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So it is the right way, but 
we're doing it too slow. 

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So what are the main 
constraints? 

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I believe the first one is the 
high upfront cost, which is what

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I in 20 years that I've been 
doing retrofits around Europe 

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and not only there, I can feel 
that the first reaction whether 

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it's luxury or middle class or 
social housing, the typical 

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approach is why do I have to 
spend this much. 

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But it's a, it's a typical thing
that actually it's reflected in 

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any kind of transition solution.
We have to invest when it comes 

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to innovation, we have to invest
in upfront cost in order to 

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adopt new more efficient 
solutions that actually pay back

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with time. 
So the problem is when you don't

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have the the cash we do, you 
don't have the money to invest 

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and three times you don't have 
the will so much because I had 

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clients who spent more on the 
base than they spent on the 

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heating system of their own, 
their own home. 

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But it, whether it's cultural or
structural, it's still a big 

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problem and it can be addressed.
But it needs, you know, policy 

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needs right governance, it needs
information, education. 

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And it's a, it's a, it's a mix 
of solution that must be applied

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and we're not doing it 
effectively. 

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The second I believe could be 
the low owner awareness. 

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I mean, there are people who are
building or retrofitting their 

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own home, but there are also 
many landlords that are building

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to sell or building to rent. 
And that's a complete different 

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approach and a complete 
different perception of on how 

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to spend the money when you're 
building a retrofitting a 

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building. 
Because when you're renting 

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mainly you, you think that the 
utilities are going to be paid 

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by the tenants. 
So why do I have to spend in 

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giving them an efficient 
building when it's only a 

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benefit for them? 
The third one we're starting, I 

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mean, as the pace of the 
retrofit is increasing, even 

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though it's increasing very 
slowly, there's a lack of 

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skilled labor. 
And I'm not talking about only 

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engineers and architects. 
I'm talking about the 

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installers, the contractors. 
I'm talking about the supply 

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chain problem that it's not only
about the cost that can be and 

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it, it has been rising in the 
past during the pandemic and 

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it's rising again now as the 
rest of the world is starting to

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adapt into the new transition 
solutions. 

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But it's also the cost of 
scaffolding, It's a cost of 

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cement, the cost of, of timber 
of copper pipes. 

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So it's, it's a, it's a trouble 
as well when it comes to heat 

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pumps because the biggest, the 
biggest vendors are Korean, are 

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Asian, are Chinese or Japanese. 
And we are, we have in Europe, 

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we have some producer, but they 
still rely on Asian supplies. 

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So when the supply chain starts 
to be constrained by high demand

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or problems like the energy 
crisis right now and you know, 

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the straight of our moods that 
stops any kind of supply being 

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being brought to Europe from 
Asia. 

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The the cost of the retrofit 
skyrockets and people even stop 

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their own retrofit sometimes. 
So let's try to to summarize the

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three pointer you said as can. 
So one was the the cost, the 

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high retrofit cost that you 
mentioned, the awareness 

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problem, I call it probably also
the you have many different 

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stakeholders, different 
motivation, different reason why

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to do it. 
And you mentioned the supply 

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chain. 
Now I think it's a good moment 

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to start probably splitting this
problem between household 

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private ownership versus 
commercial building. 

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Because I think the second point
that you mentioned, different 

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stakeholders, different 
motivation, different way to 

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look at where I spend the money,
how I spend the money, how I can

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get money to build this kind of 
business case. 

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Let's start with the households.
For an individual or homeowner 

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or even a family living in a 
home, why should they care about

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improving the footprint of their
houses? 

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Other than doing that, I think 
what's their motivation? 

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Well, there is one which is 
probably the the most important 

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one and it's straightforward. 
It's to contain energy bills. 

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As I said, even though it seems 
costly to, to undertake a high 

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energy retrofit, higher energy 
efficiency retrofit, it pays 

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back and it pays back very 
quickly. 

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Regardless the the presence of 
incentives which you know 

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contain the, the up from cost. 
But the the payback is insured 

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by the fact that heat pumps, for
example, they consume about 

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6570% less energy than than a 
gas boiler. 

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Insulating the house contains 
energy. 

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Installing renewables on site 
reduces the cost of the of of 

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the energy bills. 
Because a buying a solar panel, 

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whether it's solar thermal or 
solar photovoltaic, it means 

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spending not much on efficiency.
It can be compared to buying a 

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batch of highly discounted 
energy for 3025, thirty years. 

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So it seems a lot. 
But then if you take into 

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account that on average you pay 
around if when you buy solar PV 

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and you install it on your 
house, you are paying the 

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kilowatt hours around 4 euro 
cent per kilowatt compared to a 

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market price of around 304025. 
It depends, you know, on the 

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energy, on the, on the state, on
the country, you're paying it. 

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But it's, it's definitely, I 
mean, containing energy bills 

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means not only paying less, but 
also being more resilient to 

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cost oscillation. 
So as the gas cost, the gas 

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prices rise, the percentage that
you're paying, if you are 

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keeping, you're just insulating 
the house and you're keeping a 

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gas boiler, you're spending less
in gas, which means the marginal

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increase of your bill. 
It's lower than other people 

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with a less insulated house. 
It's, I mean, if you compare a 

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Class A building with a class E 
or F, which is the average in 

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Europe, we're talking about on, 
on the real use case, even 

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though in theory it's even more 
better than the real use case. 

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It's around 40 to 70% of savings
on energy bills. 

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So it's helping, if not, you 
know, reducing by 2/3 the energy

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cost and the energy cost it's 
about, you know, it's, it's a 

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very high in cost voice in the 
in the family budget. 

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Yeah. 
And getting higher everyday 

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given today's environment now as
Kenya, there is of course an 

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element of you know what type of
building you are in, what is the

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condition and what not. 
But as a home owner, what is 

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kind of the recipe? 
Is there a logical sequence of 

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things to to follow or, or is 
there nothing like that in this 

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area? 
Is there like a framework or 

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something that they can think 
about when they want to improve,

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improve the footprint of their 
house? 

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Sure, let's not forget it. 
It's not just about energy, it's

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also about improving comfort, 
improving wholesomeness of the 

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indoor environment. 
When I was leading the energy 

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campaigning with WWF in Italy, I
remember that WWF was producing 

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up research on blood from of 
housemaids and people working on

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industrial sites and working 
outdoor. 

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And people living indoor had 
more polluted blood than living 

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people living outdoor. 
Mainly outdoor because when you 

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open your windows, you actually 
accumulate pollution from the 

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outdoor environment. 
And these are micro dust that 

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deposit onto the ground. 
And when you Hoover your place, 

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the filter of your Hoover 
doesn't filter out micro dust, 

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so you actually just raise 
rising them on in the 

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environment and breathing them 
out. 

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00:13:55,240 --> 00:14:00,760
So you're the and added to that,
their use of synthetic materials

229
00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:04,120
for insulation, it increases 
pollutants sometimes because the

230
00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,320
the walls are actually 
transpirating, they're 

231
00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,440
breathing, they're not a 
complete sealed environment. 

232
00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:14,120
So the air coming in, it mixes 
with contaminants and addictive 

233
00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,160
additives added to the synthetic
materials that evaporate with 

234
00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,520
time. 
So it's very important to 

235
00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,680
understand that it's, it's a 
matter of energy, it's a matter 

236
00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,960
of wholesomeness, it's a matter 
of innovation, because getting a

237
00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,280
house future proof helps 
containing costs in the, in the 

238
00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:33,160
future and reduces the amount 
of, of operating and maintenance

239
00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,160
costs as well. 
What is the, there's a, there is

240
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,480
a structure approach, There is a
logic of how to intervene, but 

241
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,160
it's not always the same. 
It depends on the climate, it 

242
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:44,920
depends on the budget of the 
client. 

243
00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:46,840
It depends on, on many other 
factors. 

244
00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,640
But mainly you should typical 
engineering approach is to 

245
00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:52,720
contain the energy consumption 
first. 

246
00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:58,120
So it's about insulating your 
house and there are priorities 

247
00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,560
as well when you insulate how a 
home because you have to take 

248
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:06,480
into account that heat tends 
tends to rise upwards. 

249
00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:11,560
So containing the insulating the
roof is the first thing to do 

250
00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:15,960
because it's, it's around 60% of
the heat that you lose from from

251
00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,360
a home. 
Then you go on to perimeter 

252
00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,360
walls and windows and then the 
basement. 

253
00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,960
Of course, there's a, there's a 
discussion to to be done in 

254
00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,280
getting more details about air 
tightness. 

255
00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:31,000
But let's start with insulation.
The second step would be 

256
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:35,320
changing the technology with, 
with which you heat and cool and

257
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,680
produce hot water in the house, 
because that's the main energy 

258
00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:42,440
cost in the home. 
Don't forget in generally in, I 

259
00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:46,480
mean it changes with the with 
climate, but generally about 80%

260
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,080
of the consumption in the home 
is thermal consumption. 

261
00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:55,280
So it's hot water, it's heating 
and cooling and about 20% is the

262
00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,680
General Electric consumption. 
So it's appliances, your hair 

263
00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,880
dryer, your TV, your computer 
and so on, lighting and so on. 

264
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:08,640
Changing from a gas boiler to a 
heat pump, as I said, off if not

265
00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,040
more, it reduces a lot the the 
energy consumption. 

266
00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:18,000
Yeah, the third one would be 
start to produce on site part of

267
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,640
your energy. 
So using solar thermals or APV, 

268
00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,400
maybe even micro wind 
installations. 

269
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,680
Don't forget that heat pumps 
themselves are a renewable 

270
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,440
energy generator because when 
they produce the heating or the 

271
00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:36,080
cooling or the heat up the the 
water that you use in your sink 

272
00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:40,680
or in your shower, they use 
about 3, three, fourth of the 

273
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,440
energy. 
It's coming from the outside air

274
00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:50,440
or the ground or a close lake or
torrent or a river or whatever. 

275
00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,360
So it the the heat pump. 
So right, renewable energy 

276
00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,400
generator, because it grows 
energy from the environment and 

277
00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,920
uses to add it to a small 
addition of electricity. 

278
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:09,480
You know, the smart home 
solutions, smart technologies, 

279
00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,119
they can contribute to, to close
the loop. 

280
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:17,079
Because it has been demonstrated
that even monitoring your 

281
00:17:17,079 --> 00:17:20,800
consumption with a smart meter, 
when you look at how much you're

282
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,200
consuming every second, you 
know, you know that you're 

283
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:29,680
consuming 10P an hour or P an 
hour of €50 cent. 

284
00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,120
I'm sorry, I'm in the UK, but 
this kind of kind of monitoring 

285
00:17:33,120 --> 00:17:36,040
helps changing the behavior 
within the home. 

286
00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,600
And it's, it's been demonstrated
that it reduces the energy 

287
00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:43,920
consumption by 5 to 15%, even 17
in some cases. 

288
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,840
It can be arranged even in 
offices, not only in homes. 

289
00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:49,840
And there are, there have been 
offices in the United States 

290
00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,720
that did in each floor of the of
the building, they did a 

291
00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:57,160
competition of which floor was 
the most efficient one with 

292
00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,560
prizes. 
So it was an incentive for 

293
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,920
employees to save energy to 
switch off their computer, to 

294
00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,120
switch off to to lower the 
temperature of the the cooling 

295
00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:08,680
system or switching off lights 
and so on. 

296
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:11,640
So let's can you. 
What I like about this 

297
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,040
discussion is that sometimes 
energy efficiency is not the 

298
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:19,000
sexiest topic in energy. 
But actually there are some 

299
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:26,000
really practical things to do. 
Technology is there and really 

300
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,840
probably simple to do it and 
quite accessible. 

301
00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,840
In the previous episode, for 
example, we talked about the 

302
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:33,920
pumps. 
I had also my own example 

303
00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,200
summarizing the 4th point that 
you said. 

304
00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:40,360
So insulation, hot water cell 
production, smart technology. 

305
00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:42,960
I jump directly to the second 
one to the pump. 

306
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,400
But you made me think that 
probably insulation is something

307
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,560
that we need to probably 
prioritize if possible. 

308
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,560
Now I live in France, so I 
enjoyed what is the tax benefit 

309
00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,960
here for in selling it pumps, 
getting some grants. 

310
00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:58,960
Many countries have different 
kind of strategies. 

311
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:04,160
So subsidies, mortgage, green 
mortgages, tax benefits. 

312
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,240
Do you think this is working? 
Is the right way to incentivize?

313
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:14,080
Are we still missing something 
to really incentivize early 

314
00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:20,240
adopters going to mass market? 
There are, there are some good, 

315
00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,560
you know, best practices around 
Europe that could be a good 

316
00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,600
example for many, for many 
politicians around Europe, 

317
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,400
around the world, but not all of
them work very well. 

318
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:34,120
They're effective in some use 
cases, they're they're not in 

319
00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:37,040
others. 
So I believe that there's, it's 

320
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:41,760
quite a complicated discussion, 
but the, the basic principle is 

321
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:46,400
a rotational fund would be a 
very interesting point to start 

322
00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,240
from. 
And it's it's very complicated 

323
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,000
to do it when it's easier with 
companies. 

324
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:53,920
It's more complicated to do it 
with households. 

325
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:59,640
But it's it's about anticipating
the upfront cost to to whomever 

326
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,160
has to intervene with the 
retrofit or new, new build. 

327
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,560
In Italy, for example, if you've
got an incentive that is 

328
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,520
proportional to the expense, so 
it gives you back as a tax 

329
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:16,760
credit for five years and 
sometimes less about 5055% of 

330
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,800
your investment, it's a very 
good incentive because it's 

331
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,520
proportional to the to the cost.
So it works in any kind of size 

332
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:28,120
of retrofit, but it doesn't work
really well when it comes to 

333
00:20:28,120 --> 00:20:31,280
middle class, low income family 
or even social housing. 

334
00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,880
Because if you don't have the 
money, it's not important how 

335
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,320
much you get back. 
You don't just can't start your 

336
00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,120
own breath of it. 
So the rotational funds are 

337
00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:43,320
different because it's, it's a 
sort of a lease, It's lending 

338
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,080
the money that you need to do 
the intervention. 

339
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,800
Then you pay back with your 
bills with time instead of 

340
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:50,880
paying with tax credits. 
Because some people, for 

341
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,360
example, have retired people 
that they don't pay income tax. 

342
00:20:54,360 --> 00:20:56,600
So a tax credit would be 
completely useless. 

343
00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,120
England, we've got a different 
one, which is a one off figure. 

344
00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:03,040
It's very interesting. 
It's about 75 changing from a 

345
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,600
gas boiler to a heat boiler, 
electric boiler to a heat pump. 

346
00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:09,480
And it pays back the extra cost 
of a heat pump and it pays even 

347
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:11,440
more. 
I mean you, you get money to to 

348
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,520
start paying your retrofit other
than just the heat. 

349
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,080
And it works really well for low
income families. 

350
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,400
It's very interesting. 
But as soon as you start 

351
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:24,600
increasing the the size and 
think about a landlord who has a

352
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:29,080
big building and he's investing 
into a bill to rent or a bill to

353
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,800
sell and he wants to put up a 
heat pump and he's looking for 

354
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:36,440
some incentive to help him out. 
Well, 7500 lbs for an entire 

355
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,040
building is just a small 
fraction of the cost. 

356
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:44,600
So I believe that the best 
solution would be analyzing all 

357
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,560
the best practice and try to 
learn and absorb parts of the 

358
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:54,040
rationale that is behind this 
governance and start thinking 

359
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:58,360
about more about the income of, 
of the, the people who are doing

360
00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:01,320
the retrofit rather than the 
expense of the, of the retrofit 

361
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,560
itself. 
Because as I said, the problem 

362
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,920
of that from cost rises as you 
lower the income of the owners. 

363
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,000
That reduction, sorry, VAT 
reduction, is another kind of 

364
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,560
incentive that could be adopted 
because it's easier for the 

365
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,480
politicians to do it. 
Yeah. 

366
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:23,240
And now if we extend this 
thinking from sort of individual

367
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:29,200
houses etcetera to what the 
commercial building sector is 

368
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,960
facing, what's your perspective 
on that as Kenya? 

369
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,600
There is the problem with the 
split incentives owner does it, 

370
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:39,240
tenant benefits from energy in 
individual homes. 

371
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,400
You've sort of outlined other 
considerations, but how do we 

372
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,760
crack the problem of commercial 
buildings? 

373
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,200
Yeah, that's, that's, it's not 
only commercial buildings. 

374
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,400
I mean, if you the commercial 
buildings, you, you include the 

375
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:56,360
owners who are renting the tuned
Wow, there's yes, that's a big 

376
00:22:56,360 --> 00:22:59,120
deal. 
I mean, I live in a rent I I 

377
00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:04,040
rent right now and my land 
landlord wasn't very keen on on 

378
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,080
changing my gas boiler with a 
with a heat pump. 

379
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,880
Luckily I found an energy 
supplier gives me 100% bio gas, 

380
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,880
but it's, you know, it's a 
virtual benefit. 

381
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,480
It's not a real one because I'm 
still emitting CO2 locally. 

382
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,520
So what, what can be done? 
I mean, what I have tried to to 

383
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:25,320
tell him is I can contribute to 
part of the retrofit because 

384
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,920
part of the benefit falls into 
onto my own. 

385
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,360
But I try to let him understand 
that he actually it's a benefit 

386
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:34,360
that comes that goes to that. 
I mean, it's a benefit for him 

387
00:23:34,360 --> 00:23:37,240
as well, because future proofing
the house means that he can 

388
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,720
raise the rent for to to other 
people in the future and 

389
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:42,440
increase his margin on on the 
House. 

390
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,720
It's even more visible when when
it comes to offices. 

391
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,880
For example, most offices, at 
least here in the UK, is less 

392
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:52,480
frequent in Italy and Southern 
Europe. 

393
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:56,040
But they pay the rent, including
the energy bills. 

394
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:02,160
So in this kind of forfeit case,
it's even the tenant is not keen

395
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,960
on on doing any retrofit because
he says I'm already paying a 

396
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:07,560
fixed price. 
Why should I care? 

397
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,640
So in but in this case, it's the
owner who has the the higher 

398
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:13,880
benefit. 
Because what I tell them is if 

399
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,160
you retrofit your own office, 
you actually, you're increasing 

400
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,960
your, your margins because you 
can, you know, not rise the, the

401
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,960
rent and, and have the people 
staying more longer for, in your

402
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,760
building while you're increasing
your rent because the actual 

403
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:33,840
real, the real bill goes down. 
And so there are, there are ways

404
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,560
to do it. 
There are, there can be special 

405
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:37,480
incentives. 
I will talk. 

406
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,520
I was talking about the VAT 
reduction, which is still 

407
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:45,400
attractive for some land owners.
There are European directives 

408
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,840
that actually oblige the 
landlords to, to retrofit their 

409
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,520
own buildings. 
It's kind of a slow directive. 

410
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,240
And that's, that's a bigger 
discussion about the political 

411
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,600
will and the political ideology 
and how they, they influence 

412
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,720
the, the governance on, on 
energy efficiency. 

413
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,400
But I believe that most of the 
contribution would come from 

414
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,880
governance. 
So we need to oblige to do it 

415
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,560
because it's something that 
reflects back onto social cost. 

416
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:17,040
Our taxes pay for all the 
externalities of our energy 

417
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,680
consumption. 
So whether it's pollution from 

418
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,880
gas boiler, which reflects on to
health, health care costs 

419
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,560
because it produces pathologies,
it kills people around the 

420
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,800
world, it's it degrades 
monument, it kills biodiversity,

421
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:37,240
but it's also the cost of 
dangerous climate change events.

422
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,120
And these are all paid by 
everyone in, in our taxes. 

423
00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:45,960
So there must be a way, there 
should be a way to let everybody

424
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,040
comply to, to the transition 
because it's it benefits 

425
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,080
everybody. 
What was that? 

426
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,960
Carminate the The Tragedy of the
Commons? 

427
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,440
I think it was one of the 
episodes we did related to what 

428
00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,760
you're what you're what you've 
just mentioned. 

429
00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:03,840
Yes. 
And actually we talk about 

430
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,640
behaviours, we talk about 
policies. 

431
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:12,960
Now the importance of let's say 
that the government to shape to 

432
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:14,920
shape. 
Let's go back a little bit on 

433
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,640
the technology angle. 
We have three engineers here in 

434
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,280
the podcast. 
So we'll also sometimes look 

435
00:26:20,360 --> 00:26:23,440
like to go back and look at what
is happening in the market. 

436
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,480
But I'm interesting asking you 
to to know from your perspective

437
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,920
what which generally excites you
right now. 

438
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:34,000
Probably there are technologies 
that are ready, deployable or 

439
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,520
very close to readiness to go to
market that you think they. 

440
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,600
Serve much more. 
Attention that they get right 

441
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,280
now. 
What's your view? 

442
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,680
Yes, there are upcoming 
interesting technologies. 

443
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:51,760
I mean, of course we, you know, 
everybody going around social 

444
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,760
networks or browsing the news, 
they reads from time to time 

445
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:59,280
about some miraculous solutions,
new batteries that works with 

446
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,320
water and and so on. 
I'm generally by quite skeptical

447
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,600
about that. 
I follow scientific papers, I 

448
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,880
follow the the market, I follow 
vendors and industry instead of 

449
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:10,840
just relying on generalistic 
media. 

450
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:15,040
So there's a big difference 
between announcement and what 

451
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,120
actually can be scalable, what 
actually can be reliable in 

452
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,640
enough to enter the market and 
and be this being disruptive for

453
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,720
the market. 
So I believe that right now 

454
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,600
there are two main very 
interesting technologies that 

455
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,680
are very close to to market. 
And the first one is perovskite.

456
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,320
It's a, it's a different 
material than the silicon, the 

457
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,600
typical silicon that is used in 
solar PV panels and perovskite. 

458
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:41,560
It actually increases the 
efficiency by 4050% compared to 

459
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,360
the traditional solar PV. 
That means that we can reach 

460
00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:48,280
efficiencies, total efficiencies
around 35%. 

461
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:53,360
Right now it's around 2224 and 
it seems a little marginal 

462
00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:56,040
increase, but it's a big 
contribution. 

463
00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:01,160
Just think about utility scale 
PV which are the most needed 

464
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,920
source of energy around the 
world and it's the fastest 1 

465
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,880
rising right now. 
We actually it took cars around 

466
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:11,560
6570 years to reach a first 
terawatt around the world and in

467
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,880
about two years where we are 
reaching the the the second 

468
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,800
terawatt. 
So the the exponential growth of

469
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:23,280
this solar technology, it drives
driving the transition, but it 

470
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,520
occupies space. 
Of course it's a very small 

471
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,040
fraction. 
I mean, it's about 0 point 

472
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,840
something percent in depending 
on the country, but it's a very 

473
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:38,560
small land use. 
But still if we account that we 

474
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,320
with perovskite, we can reduce 
the surface by 1/3, it means 

475
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,720
that we can produce 35% more 
energy or we can use less land 

476
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,640
to produce the same amount of 
energy with the very comparable 

477
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,760
costs. 
So it's a very interesting 

478
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,760
technology and it's not only 
about utility PV, but it's, I've

479
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,640
got a friend working on research
and they're researching 

480
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,080
transparent film based on 
perovskite. 

481
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:07,240
And that means that we we will 
be able to apply a solar PV 

482
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:12,600
technology on almost anything on
a track, on a backpack, on a 

483
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:17,360
device, on windows, in in 
skyscrapers where it's very 

484
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,720
difficult on high rise building 
to actually have the surface 

485
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,680
enough to to auto produce the 
energy that is consumed by the 

486
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,520
building. 
So using vertical facades helps 

487
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,040
integrating the the missing 
surface. 

488
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,560
So there are so many different 
applications and the problem 

489
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:38,680
right now is not much the energy
gain that you get because in lab

490
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,720
tests it's very promising. 
But right now the problem is 

491
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,280
that with UV light, it actually 
degrades with time faster than 

492
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,920
silicon. 
So they are working on tweaking 

493
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,720
the crystals and adding 
different materials so that 

494
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,760
this, these panels can last as 
much as silicon panels. 

495
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,600
But I strongly believe in what 
the tandem cells are going to be

496
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,560
doing in the next 10-15 years. 
And I, I guess, I mean, there's 

497
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,080
already a Korean company that is
building them as producing them.

498
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,280
The big scaling it's going to, 
it's going to happen in five to 

499
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,320
10 years. 
And tandem cells are very nice 

500
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,720
because they apply perovskite 
over the silicon panels. 

501
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,120
So we use traditional technology
and we've got the, the 

502
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,400
technology, you know, the 
industry already with all the 

503
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,160
machinery needed to, to build 
it. 

504
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,560
We just have to add and deposit 
a different material and it 

505
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,400
increases the, the gain. 
The second one is batteries. 

506
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,240
We don't have to forget the, one
of the most important thing when

507
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,840
we increase our energy mix onto 
variable renewables is that we 

508
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,680
need storage on a daily basis 
and on a long, on long term 

509
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:50,480
seasonal terms. 
The most important one is the 

510
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:55,080
daily, the daily one and 
chemical storage is increasing 

511
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,640
the the role because the the 
cost has been falling down. 

512
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,480
It's been about 90% in the last 
10 years. 

513
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,840
It went down. 
So right now solar PV plus 

514
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,560
storage, chemical storage costs 
less than gas, it costs less 

515
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:14,720
than than coal, wind and solar. 
Together with storage they can 

516
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,080
ensure a very constant supply of
energy throughout the day. 

517
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,760
So, so it takes off any kind of 
bulk production. 

518
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:26,000
So I refer to any thermoelectric
production which is very 

519
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:30,200
pollutant like coal or gas and 
nuclear as well which is very 

520
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,800
expensive. 
And with these solutions, 

521
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,440
batteries are very important. 
So right now we are proceeding 

522
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:39,040
towards solid-state batteries. 
They're going to be having a 

523
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:43,680
very long and much longer life 
cycle and, and their, their 

524
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,160
efficiency, it's increasing 
right now it's slower than the 

525
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,080
lithium one, but it's going to 
get rid of the critical 

526
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,480
material, materials that are 
difficult to find and costly to 

527
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,840
extract. 
So sodium, for example, can be 

528
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:58,880
derived even from desalina tion 
plants. 

529
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,480
So it's actually it's a benefit 
because it reduces the impact of

530
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,080
desalina tion, which is 
increasing around the world for 

531
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,040
climate change. 
So there's a, there's a synergy 

532
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:13,360
between technologies that are 
very interesting. 22 seconds can

533
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:18,320
you so do wrap up here we talk 
about the energy efficiency, we 

534
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,280
talk how to accelerate very 
quickly. 

535
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,040
If you can remove you have a 
magic bond and you can remove 

536
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,440
one of the roadblock today to 
get scale with energy efficiency

537
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,360
in home which one you pick 
first? 

538
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:36,840
So, behavioral Financial Policy 
regulation technology. 

539
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:39,720
Yeah. 
Then there is one that it's been

540
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:46,080
obtained 20 years anywhere in 
Europe, a little bit less 

541
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,640
elsewhere. 
But you know in Europe we've got

542
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:53,640
a very huge historical heritage 
when it comes to architectural 

543
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,480
buildings. 
So there's a regulatory 

544
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,000
constraint that it comes to 
aesthetics. 

545
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,360
So in Italy is very strong. 
I mean, if you, if you ask to 

546
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,640
install a couple of panels over 
a roof, they're going to start 

547
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,800
saying, yeah, but I, I don't 
have to see it from Rd. 

548
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,880
Rd. level. 
I don't want it to be a 

549
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:14,720
different color because it's 
ugly. 

550
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,200
And it's kind of, I remember 
discussion with a close friend 

551
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,680
of mine, a colleague, an 
architect, a very, very good 

552
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,480
experienced architect. 
And I was telling him he's an 

553
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,160
Austrian guy. 
And I was telling him in Italy 

554
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,480
that the incentive was higher if
you flush the panels on into the

555
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,720
roof, a little bit lower if you 
were putting them on the roof 

556
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,440
and even lower if the roof was 
flat. 

557
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,680
So you had to rise the panels 
over the roof and let them be 

558
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:40,920
more visible. 
And he said, why do you pay 

559
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:42,640
less? 
And I said, because, you know, 

560
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,640
because they said it's ugly. 
And why suddenly I would be 

561
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,360
proud of installing and showing 
that my house is actually 

562
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,160
innovative. 
And that's a huge constraint 

563
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:56,760
because many times we we are 
stopped and we have to wait for 

564
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,400
years, sometimes not even months
to have the authorization to 

565
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,280
proceed. 
And this is really stupid. 

566
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,520
I mean, again, it's ugly. 
I mean, aesthetics is very 

567
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,960
subjective, first of all, but 
it's, it's nonsense. 

568
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:17,280
So we should adopt and we've got
the technology to to reduce this

569
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,560
visual impact, but it's not an 
environmental impact. 

570
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,800
Environmental impact is the gas 
boiler that I'm going to install

571
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,080
if I don't in solar, Solar 
thermal panel that produces the 

572
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:31,520
hot water without gas. 
It's, it's just bonkers, this. 

573
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,239
Has been a very rich 
conversation, so thank you so 

574
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,080
much for coming to the show 
before leaving. 

575
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:38,960
Where can people follow your 
work? 

576
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,159
Well, for Italian speaking 
audience, I've got the 

577
00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:49,440
sustainability deals which is at
ascano.substec.com and I as you 

578
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,040
said, I mean I'm not very 
regular. 

579
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,080
It depends on how much work I 
have to do, but I'm trying to be

580
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,600
as regular as I can. 
It's been going on for a couple 

581
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,600
of years and it's gathering 
interest and I have an audience 

582
00:35:00,720 --> 00:35:03,360
that I'm really proud of. 
And it humbles me because I've 

583
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,920
got university professor and 
EPS, you know, European 

584
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,800
Parliament members. 
I've got lots of researchers and

585
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,480
consultants, but I am starting 
it in English as well. 

586
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:18,560
So it's at stopco2.subsec.com 
right now. 

587
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,440
There's already a few pills 
being translated and I'm going 

588
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,640
to insist in the future and 
increase the, the number of 

589
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:29,320
English, English articles. 
So that's, that's one way. 

590
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,120
And you know, follow me on 
LinkedIn as well. 

591
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,600
You can find me on LinkedIn and 
you can contact me if you need 

592
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,880
anything. 
I'm there for consultancies. 

593
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,920
Great. 
So Cameron, as I said, the 

594
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,480
beginning one of our previous 
episodes told us that buildings 

595
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,960
are a big part of the climate 
challenge. 

596
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,920
I think today's episode also 
highlighted the fact that it's 

597
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,280
not just a climate challenge. 
There are many other challenges 

598
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,120
in terms of their footprint that
pose, you know, a big problem 

599
00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:58,880
for us. 
But more importantly, we also 

600
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,680
learned that there are big 
opportunities in the building 

601
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,960
sector as well with as can. 
We explored why retrofits are 

602
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,080
moving slowly, what households 
and businesses can actually do 

603
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:13,160
today, where policy, financing, 
and even your sense of 

604
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,880
aesthetics can play a role. 
And very importantly, we heard 

605
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,880
that it is not only about 
carbon, it is not only about 

606
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,480
cost. 
It also has the aspect of 

607
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:28,440
comfort, health, resilience, and
making our homes and workplaces 

608
00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:33,120
fit for the future. 
So for all of that, Ascano, 

609
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,800
thank you very much for for 
joining us on this episode of 

610
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,440
Sustainability Forward and 
Sharing your expertise so, so 

611
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,840
generously. 
And thank you, Carmina, as 

612
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,520
always, for for a great 
conversation and thanks to all 

613
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,200
of you around the world for 
tuning into Sustainability 

614
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,600
Forward. 
Thank you, It's been a pleasure.

615
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:53,480
Thank you, Richie. 
Thank you, Scan.