This is Rumble with Michael Moore and I'm Michael Moore.
Welcome everyone. First of all, I want to thank
all of you who joined me last Friday night for the free
worldwide, screening of Fahrenheit, 9/11 and the Q&A
afterwards and the little short subject of what happened after
the film came out, and we had an amazing turnout received
wonderful feedback for many of you.
So, Thank you very much for that.
It was the eve of the 20th anniversary of 9/11 and felt
like a powerful moment and I loved watching the movie with
you and sharing it with you. And and this is something I'm
going to do for my sub stack members.
If you are a member of myself stack, I'm going to every month
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Some of them didn't get the distribution they deserved, and
people haven't seen them. I'd like to share them with you.
Some of them are huge Classics that I would love to get the
director or some of the stars of the film together after the
screening that particular night and have them take questions
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Thank you for becoming a paid member.
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free gifts for being a paid member and thank all of you for
being part of this in this first month, it's been very special
and I'm very grateful. Today's podcast episode will be
my conversations. Twenty years after 9/11 and 17
years. After we released Fahrenheit,
9/11 in the theaters, you're going to hear on this podcast
today, to conversations that I had surrounding Friday's
worldwide event to conversations one with Lila Lipscomb.
From Flint, Michigan. The mother whose son died.
While serving in Iraq and my conversation with Abdul
Henderson. The former Marine Corporal who
came with me bravely to Capitol Hill to stop members of Congress
as we try to recruit them or their sons, or their daughters
to go and fight the wars that they were enthusiastically
voting for. But before we are my
conversations with Lila and Abdul.
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All right, so as I was saying, last Friday I spoke with Lila
Lipscomb just before our Fahrenheit 9/11 screening, she's
the mother from Flint Michigan and lost her son.
Army Sergeant, Michael Patterson on April 2nd 2003 in Iraq
Michael who was obviously also from Flint was 26 years old.
He was killed in a Black Hawk helicopter.
Crash in central Iraq. Lila and her family are now
living in Columbus, Ohio. Let's just play a minute from
Fahrenheit 9/11, where we met Lila Lipscomb.
The Army called me. And I remember getting on the
phone and him saying asking me, was I Lila Lipscomb and I said
yes, and he said, mother of Sergeant, Michael Patterson.
And I remember dropping the telephone and all I can honestly
say that I remember is ma'am, the United States Army, the
Secretary of Defense regretfully informs you It's all I know.
The grief wrapped me so hard. That I literally fell in the
floor and I was alone, I didn't have anybody to pick me up.
So, I literally called over to my desk and was hanging on and I
remember screaming, why does it have to be mindful?
Why did you have to take my son? Why is it my son?
You had to take him to do anything.
He wasn't a bad guy. She was a good that, why did you
have to take my son? While in her family now live in
Columbus, Ohio. And now, my friends, here it is.
My one-on-one conversation with Lila Lipscomb.
Hey Lyla, are you doing? Do you know what Michael first?
Can I just I don't know if I ever ever got a chance to
properly, just warm plea, from my heart.
Tell you, thank you so much for giving me a platform for my
grief. I know it was because of what
you gifted me with that gave me the strength to continue on and
I thank you for that. Not everybody had the ability or
the app, the gift to be able to have a platform to share that
grief and to receive so much. Much love when I needed it.
So I want to thank you for that. Well that's very kind of you to
say that there's no way I probably could never do enough
to remove the pain and obviously none of us have the power to
bring Michael your son back. But I was so moved by you.
When I first met you we were making the film to stand there
with you in front of the White House.
Yeah. To stand at the gates or of
power in to speak the truth. Yep.
No you're a religious person. And of course, we talked about
how I, when I was a teenager. I went to the Seminary and but
you literally were that day. I just was thinking we have
John, the Baptist here. I doubt that she's just call him
out and he's on there and it's ear.
Yep, here come on King Herod. Come on down.
But you know what I remember so much about that day at the White
House. I was I was so angry that there
was like a trench built. Yes, offense in the trench
building. All of that.
Yes he's so afraid he has to just literally lock himself in
back there, right? I was appalled, I was appalled.
It's my white house. Just like it's his white house
and I couldn't get to it. It shocked me there and that was
really the beginning of of how they were trying to under the
name of Homeland Security. Exactly basically make sure That
the people can be kept away, and then we can be heard exemption
and there's nothing to worry about with us.
We're not like the January 6. People were, we're going to come
on now. Tell it we're not violent
people. First of all, were there to stop
the violence? Exactly.
What else you remember of that time when we were sort of back
and forth and everywhere we were in Flint, we were in Washington.
D.c.? What comes to me is Dover Air
Force Base when we went to Dover that was pretty intense.
That was pretty intense. Because I was not allowed to go
receive my son's casket home and to be able to go to Dover.
It was as though I was able to go even though he wasn't there
and then to see, when I walk to go up to the base.
And to see, I didn't realize that.
So many people were following me as I walked up to the base, and
they told me that I had to leave and that that hurt me to my
heart knowing that my son gave his blood for this country and I
was Not allowed to step foot on a military base.
All of that time was just so emotional for me, obviously, for
you, for all, I was having to do was try to, you know, go around
the country and try to talk to people and try to figure this
out, and try to present something to the public, but
your loss. I mean, your, your son, Michael
died on April 2nd, which is my mother's birthday, right?
No, and he was, I think one of the first from our area, he was
to die in the war because the war had started on March 17th.
Yep. 19th something like that, March 9th.
So, it was very early on. Yeah.
And I think most Americans really didn't know why we were
there or what was happening or what's going on.
And well, a lot of Americans were trying were actually
feeding into the lie that we were going after Bin Laden.
Yeah. Right in Iraq.
Exactly. Right.
And then here we are 20 years
later, finally, having to come out of Afghanistan where we
should have. If we truly went for bin Laden,
we should have been there in the first place.
Yeah. And then once Bin Laden was
gone. Why were we still there?
Thank you, Michael, who's that? I don't, they've never really
explained that and the way bush has sort of, now, in the latter
years come off, as this kind of goofy, Grandpa type.
He's a painter now and he's always hugging, Michelle Obama
and handing her sticks of gum. I mean, I just and once Trump
was elected, everybody was like, oh well, this makes bush look
good and I'm thinking, no, really?
I'm not I mean I'm not prone to say anything good about Trump
but I'm trying to remember the countries he invaded right.
You know I mean this guy invaded two countries.
Yep. There's a lot of blood on his
hands. Yep.
And money in his pocket, a lot of money and his and Cheney's
and all exactly the ones that sit on the boards.
Yeah. So I've really never gotten it
over it. And I have this sense still that
justice has not prevailed. When it comes to washing his
crowd, no hunt, I hope that will happen in our lifetime, me too.
How do they sleep, how do they sleep at night?
You know what? I don't know how they sleep
other than just being pure ignorant and choosing not to
take accountability for their actions because I think in their
mind they were doing what they They thought they needed to do
in order to pacify the ones that put them in office.
And that that sickens me, that just sickens me with our
political system. How have you dealt with that
yourself now? Because it's been so Michael
died in 03. So that's what is that 18?
18 years 18 plus years. Now a lot of counseling.
I worked with the Columbia University for the study of
grief for families of Fallen Soldiers.
No, just built a little cocoon that I stay within.
And unfortunately, I mean I'm very blessed to be where I'm at
right now, but I think I stay very close to the defense center
in Columbus. Ohio and I have to be very
careful because when the military helicopters start
flying overhead, I tend to get very anxious and start getting
the PTSD flashbacks. So, That part has been a real
struggle for me. You can tell I'm still kind of
dealing with that. Of course while Michael died in
a helicopter, exactly. Absolutely.
And then to find out that his head was decapitated is it's,
you know, I choose not to try to think about those when I think
of my son I choose to think of the Redbird.
The Cardinal would comes and visits me almost daily.
And they say, when a red bird, visit you with someone from
Heaven, checking on you. So those kind of things are what
I choose to stick with. Yeah, yeah.
But but still I hear you and it's you still hear the pain of
course. I mean, I how the, you know, my
grandmother lost, my uncle in World War Two in the
Philippines. And now I wasn't born then, but
growing up was clear. He was there were seven kids in
that family and who's probably the favorite brother of my
dad's. Although I only saw him with his
two To living brothers who are also in the war and they were
hilarious and great and he loved them deeply.
But the one who died, I think it was just like, they were just a
year apart or so, and my grandmother never got over it.
She was so affected by his death that when the war was over.
And they finally, you know, the bodies came back and whatever
they buried him in the Catholic Cemetery in Flint, she wanted to
visit the grave every day and did, and then she told her
husband That she wanted to find a house that was in walking
distance of the cemetery and did and found a house to rent.
Just across essentially right across the street from the
cemetery and went there, every day.
All my God, the grief and the pain of it.
Yeah. The well that's that's part of
the reason that I had to leave Flint because I too would go to
the cemetery and many days, I would find myself standing.
It is great and just screaming at the top of my lungs.
Lungs. Yeah, because I still don't
understand it. 18 years in and I still don't understand a man's
greed that he would send children to make him more money.
I still don't understand it. Well, you understand that it was
a man's greed, right? Wanted to make money and would,
and would not send his own daughters off to whatever,
exactly, but would send your son and all the others have signed
up in all the others. And they said, why did they sign
up? They signed up because they were
willing to defend you. And I exactly so that we
wouldn't have to give our lives. They're willing to give their
lives, right? I can promise you.
When my son signed up with the military, he never gave up
thought about being sent some place to make money for
somebody, right? A place that had nothing to do
with the defense a lot to do with it.
My son was all for getting Bin Laden.
Yeah, but he wasn't for invading Iraq.
Yeah, what did that have to do? With Bin Laden, exactly, right?
It's like, it's like pop said that day in our house.
And what is it all for 18 years later?
We're still asking and what was it for your husband?
Yeah, yeah. Well, can I take a stab at
answering that question? Okay, he helped me not only make
it worse. I've come to believe that
Michael and the others who gave their lives, but it's personal.
When I think of your son that he did not die in vain, right?
He didn't die for the Since that bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld
were lying to us about and he shouldn't have had to die.
But remember my grandmother telling me that we all have this
cross that we have to carry and it comes in different forms.
You lose people in your family, my other grandmother lost, two
babies, you know, things life is hard, life is hard, and it feels
sometimes like a one curveball after another coming right at
our heads, right? But the fact that Michael
Patterson Is with me to this day after I met him through you some
18, some years ago, the fact that that he lives on in that
way and lives on in you through you that we got to tell his
story that his story, I think affected a lot of people, I'm
sure people just watch the film for the first time tonight.
Has affected them. And that means he lives he lives
on, he carries this message through his death.
I just got it Michael. Just got it, part of what, there
might be many reasons, but I believe.
Now after hearing your words, part of the reason that my son
had to give his life and he was willing to do.
That was so that this truth could be told, right?
I believe that, I believe that very strongly and I believe.
Yeah. And it to the people who watch
in the school. Also lost loved ones.
Yeah. I mean, I've gotten letters from
parents this last week after Afghanistan, after the end.
What did he die for? What did he die?
Die for what do you got? And I've tried to write back and
and and tell them that that answer will be delivered by us.
If in his death it encouraged five people.
Watching this, 10 people thousand people to get off off
the sofa, get active speak, your mind, vote protest participate
in this democracy, exactly, every whatever we will complete
his or her life. If we all do that and if we
don't, if we remain silent, if we remain a pathetic, if we so
easily can say, and rightfully, just got so much going on,
please, Mike, I can't take on anything else.
I please, I understand Lila understands.
Yes, but we cannot remain still and we cannot remain silent.
No, and we dishonor the dead if we do, that's how strongly I
personally found it. But Michael, I want everybody to
understand that you start where you are, right?
Right. Right with the anxiety, the PTSD
symptoms with everything that I've dealt with over the last 18
years. I have the last election.
I got more young people to register to vote that I have in
my entire life and it was because they had the audacity to
start. Bitching to me about the way the
world was in America and my first question.
Austin is always well, did you vote or do?
I'm not registered voter. Don't say that to me.
Ask my fun. I have gotten more one girl, her
mother didn't vote. Her grandparents didn't vote and
her grit and she was an African-American young woman.
Mmm-hmm I can promise you this last election.
She voted for the first time and she's now getting her family to
vote you start where you are. Stop the excuses, just stop it.
I don't I don't have any I don't deal with excuses well and I
don't deal with ignorance. Well, well that is well, thank
you for doing that with these young people and getting them to
register to vote. But I, when this film came on, I
got so many emails and things from people that saw the film
that had that sentence in there, I decided to vote.
I haven't voted yet. I'm going to vote now and the
powerful way that you convey. This message, you know, I
remember somebody who worked on the film saying after she, you
know, we saw the final film said, this is really a, this is
a film about about two mothers. Ultimately, if you want to boil
it right down to the core of this film, the soul of this film
is brought To Us by the mother from Flint Lila Lipscomb and the
Iraqi mother who has just lost her child.
After we bombed the civilian Population there in Iraq and the
she's carrying the dead child. And you know, people were no,
the scene in the movie and she's crying to God.
Why have you let these Americans do this?
Why are you there? You know, can you punish them
for this? Can you contact me to bring back
my child? But it's why I'll tie it in.
And so I thought this was really great when she said this because
it was like that the sort of guttural scream from the soul
from Woman in Iraq and from you and Flint.
Michigan is the is the heart and soul and the glue of this film,
and it really, I think it just watching it tonight again, just
feel like the same emotional reaction to this.
Well, my 18 year old grandson, who was actually born on my
son's birthday. Amari on.
He was a baby that Howard and Michelle had at the time of the
filming. He's getting ready to watch it
for the first time. Wow.
Wow, he's been, he's been shielded from it.
Only because we needed to make sure that he was mature enough
to be able to receive what was really going in it.
Because knowing what has happened to his uncle that he's
born. And Michael knew that a Mariana
was born on his birthday, prior to him dying.
And he was so proud that his first nephew was born on his
birthday. So this is going.
I truly want him to be with me when he watches.
And I think that was the thing that we needed to wait for.
Wow. Well, I'm so happy to hear that
and let me know what his response is.
I will, is that an in-house Michael's daughter.
How old would she be? Now, she's 24.
I believe. Now, she just left.
She, she comes and spends the summer with us and her mother
through all of it, actually has done such a beautiful job,
raising her, I have to go. I have to give her mother her
props. She has done absolutely fabulous
with Michael's daughter. She's loving.
She's kind, she's still, you know, she's special needs but
she's just an absolute joy to be with you as your husband doing
pops. How xia pops is pops is doing
fairly good. He's recovering from prostate
cancer. Hmm, he is recovering from knee
surgery due to Getting hit by a hit-and-run driver ouchies.
So, you know, like just kind of tries to kick you down and you
just get up and go. But the one thing that I learned
is the power that grief has over your physical body, right?
And he's 77 now and me just turning 68, we both have, you
know, surgeries and might happens, right, right.
Wow, well, Tell him, I said, hi for sure.
I will and everybody else there and you're in Ohio.
Now, you know, the mortal enemy of Michigan, as you know,
popular on game day. No and your you have to live
your near Columbus, right? So I am in Columbus.
You are in Columbus. OH yes, yes, yeah.
And we really do love waving our Michigan Flags.
Oh my God, man. You're that's what you're a
brave person doing that in Columbus Ohio.
I'll tell you, well, just like I have a right to go for Ohio, I
have a right to go for Michigan. Yeah, but you're in you're in
the heart of the of the and when a by side away, Michael.
I know I'm just going to say, why am I even saying that it's a
challenge to me? I think that's probably why we
do it. You ever get backed up the
Flint. Yes, we do.
We do and yeah, I wanted I tried this year but we didn't get a
chance to make it because I try to go up and visit the Michigan
own military museum in Frankenmuth.
As you know, that's what Michaels display is, but we
didn't get up there this year. So great, right?
Well, anybody in Michigan, if you're in Michigan or you visit,
Michigan Frankenmuth Mi everybody Michigan.
Ellsworth Frankenmuth is because it's where you go to get a
chicken dinner. Yep.
But the other side, this Michigan Military Museum where
they honor those from Michigan and served and given our lives
and all that. So I have not seen it yet, but I
definitely will be there because somebody's always dragging me to
go there to get a chicken dinner.
I will be in Frankenmuth in check right now Labor Day they
closed Labor Day for the rest of the season until Memorial
weekend, right? So for those who don't
understand what that meant, it starts, it starts snowing just
after Labor Day in Michigan. And usually right around
Memorial Day is when the snow ends.
So, yep. Because we like, three months of
sunny weather. Yeah.
But our friends and our family And Flint man.
What they've had to suffer through these years.
Yes, really, really something. How are you, how are you feeling
about President Biden? What's your, what's your take
on? Always so far?
I am so pleased. I am so pleased, you know.
So please, I am so thankful that he just took everybody out of
Afghanistan. Wow, I am so thankful that he
just ripped the bent. There was no good way to do it,
right? And he had to do it and I stand
with them, 100%. Then on that.
Yeah, and I'm so thankful that he's stepping up and doing
everything he's doing for this covid stuff.
I know, so thankful and I love love, love, love that.
He's so into the military to take care of them and to make
sure everything goes, good with them.
Right? And, you know, he means it, it's
something fake politician thing, you know, right.
It's like, you know, the impact that his son and his son's death
head on him. Yep.
In the way he went to Dover. Over there last week and stood
there. Yeah, and Bush.
Not only didn't go there. He would allow No cameras.
He would allow no family. Yep.
He wanted to try to sweep it under the rug.
A lot of people didn't realize that because my son was killed
so early. On those of us that lost our
children early on really paved the way for the other families
to be able to go to Dover and receive their children coming
home. Yeah, he can.
I tell you, it's just When we showed Fahrenheit 9/11 in the
can film festival, we'd already come back home to the United
States you know, halfway through the Festival which on the film a
couple times and that was that and I got a call the day before
the award ceremony to say. You need to fly back to France.
I said, kidding me why? Well the jury is indicating that
they might give you some kind of an award and so I said, well
show it, should we go? Yeah, okay so we got back on a
plane. We went back there and where
they're at the awards ceremony and we are completely shocked by
Quentin Tarantino announcing and Charlie's Throne holding up the
award that the top prize would was going to go to Fahrenheit
9/11 and we were, like, I go up there.
I take the award from him and her and afterwards.
After the ceremony was over, he comes up to me and He said, I
want you to know, on a personal level this film, really, really
affected me deeply and he mentioned you a couple of other
people in the film. He was so crushed and angry and
everything. And he said to me, and I know
it's okay to reveal this publicly because I get asked him
a couple years ago if I could He said to me, I've never voted in
my life. In fact, I've never registered
to vote, this is at that time. He's late 30s, early 40s and he
said, but this film, and the people in this film, first
thing, I'm doing when I get back to LA, I'm registering to vote
and I'm going to vote. And and then when the election
time came, he sent me a thing that he was very happy and proud
to that. That what you just said it?
Terms of how you got these young people to vote.
It's made me think a lot about the power of art whether it's
film or anything, where those who can do this communicate to
their fellow citizens. Yes.
Whether it's a book, whether it's a play, whether it's a,
maybe it's a painting, maybe it's a whole bunch of great
photographs, maybe it's a podcast, maybe it's a podcast.
Yes, yes. I know I'm I'm I'm trying to put
them all in ice capades. I haven't done that yet.
I've not skated in ice capades or Disney on Ice.
So I'll put that on the bucket list, but no, y, Le what I'm
saying, here is that, we don't know, sometimes the impact and
the effect that we have and what we do.
And sometimes, it's even in the smallest thing.
Smallest way, you don't have to be Quentin Tarantino or Michael
Moore, whatever if you just did this in your neighborhood, if
you just did this in your apartment building, right?
Just a point yourself, the block captain.
Warren, just one Street start where you are.
Yes just start where you're at. You don't have to think you got
to change the world if you change the world on your street
and and if a thousand or a hundred thousand do that.
Boom. Right.
We're going to live in a better country.
A better world as one is going to touch one that one is going
to touch too. Yeah.
It's the Domino. Like before we close I just I
want to just kind of turn it over to you to speak to these
thousands and I don't know, I haven't checked the counter yet
but you know this will be seen by hundreds of thousands of
people. Let me just put it like that if
it hasn't been already it will the film itself back in the day
when I was released was seen by millions.
But you have the for now the camera and the microphone to say
whatever you'd like to say to all of those who are watching
right now, who have seen you in heard your voice.
And I know who were very moved by what they saw on the Film.
But here we now are now in 2021. Yeah.
And here you are the 2021 Lila. Yeah.
Great granny it's a great great grandpa greatest gift at the
moment. The grandparents stage first, I
just I want to, I want to just relay how grateful I am because
of being chosen to be a part of the, the movie.
It gave me the platform, but it also gave me the opportunity.
For tunity to touch other lives. And it gave me the lesson of
learning to accept love because it at times, it became very
overwhelming, but the love that was given to me by people that I
didn't know. But that the story had touched,
strengthened me and kept me going day after day after day,
and even today, I still get reached from across the world
people In touch with me through Facebook and things.
I had an actress in La not long after the documentary came out
that I actually went to LA and and gave her points because she
was playing a mother that had lost a son in war in a play in
LA. So being able to be used in
those Avenues is is really a gift that you've given me to be
able to go forward and to be able to use my voice to get
others to vote. because, I get so tired of hearing people say,
well, my vote doesn't count anyways.
Yes it does. And it's clear that it does
through the last election. They now what we need to do is
start looking at the things that they keep shoving in all these
bills that they're trying to pass because people don't
understand that, yes, this might be a bill on abortion but what
other things are going through the lines with it?
And keeping people afraid gives them the power keeping people
held back gives them the power. But when you use your voice to
speak out, you take their power away from.
I mean, you stand in your own power, don't let people silent
you. I tell my kids all the time.
If you don't have the answer to the question, somebody does, I
had to go to the White House through Michael Moore to get the
answers to my questions. And I was able to teach my
family, don't stop. If you're not satisfied with the
information that you're given, they can't speak.
They can't keep its eye on it. They might be able to black out
the lines and not tell you everything, but eventually
somebody's going to have to step up and tell you what really what
you really need to know. But you have to find the courage
within and you have to start where you are and I just want to
encourage everybody that as you go through.
Your day, Pay It Forward smile at somebody, because you don't
know what they're going through. All right, I smile at people and
there might be a little kids after school trying to buy a
snack and don't have enough money.
Buy it for them. What harm is that to you?
You have to pay it forward and if you get sick and tired of all
the negativity surrounding, you have to break it and you have to
turn the light on and you have to surround yourself with the
light and the piece the fireplace.
You just you have to find peace within and in order to find
peace and strength from within, you have to step out of yourself
and you gave me that opportunity.
Well thank you for saying that but I sometimes I wonder
sometimes you don't have a choice.
What brought us to your living room in Flint that night?
You know, we were given a list by that time.
There have been a number of people in the Flint area given
their lives in Iraq Afghanistan. And we I came to you first
actually and when we left well, first of all we knew we didn't
need to really go speak with anyone else because I think it
really took us a while to recover from meeting you, your
family, we felt like, when we left, we we knew who Michael
was, those of us on my crew, who grew up in Flint, Flint area.
So, in that way, as a fellow Flintstone, we knew Michael,
when you and thank you for giving me.
I guess, the privilege of being able to carry your voice
forward. Yeah.
And to, and to have millions here at, I've got to believe,
it's done some good, it has and yes I believe it.
Well and you've encountered people who told you that and
what it meant what it what it did.
So Michael would you gave our family is that our son will
never die Troy has 500 years from now.
Somebody's going to click on a link.
Yes. And there are Sun is going to be
I love you, Michael. I'm so thankful for you in our
life, man. I will when my best friend's
lives in Columbus, Ohio. So I, when I'm through their
next, we will get together catch up and thank you for the good
words that you've given people here tonight and just keep on
doing what you're doing. Lila, it's smart.
It's important to you too and be safe, Michael, please be safe.
Oh yeah, no, no, don't worry about anything.
He said, just Before it happened.
And thank you for that. What you've got on that screen
behind you before we were live. Here.
I see you put that on there. It's a fire on a beach.
Yes. Ed and and she said it's for
you. I said nobody thinks of me on a
beach with a fire and you said it's the help.
Relax. Yes, and create peace.
Yeah. And and then I instantly relaxed
and Felt so great that you were here tonight, you turn the light
on Michael. You stay in the light, stay in
the light. Yeah.
Wow. And Still I Rise.
Yes. That's right everybody here that
yes, please, everybody think that.
Yeah. All of us do that.
We're going to be in pretty good shape.
I'll just smile just smile at somebody.
Yes. Well, I've always been a big
believer that humor is maybe the best medicine.
Yes, to be able to laugh. They have a sense of humor.
You know, that's one thing. I didn't tell you that, in the
very beginning, is how we actually survived the news of
our Michael dying was Tyler Perry is the Madea.
Yes, Lord. And I put it on, literally had
to pause it. We fell off the bed laughing so
hard, that we both wet ourselves.
Oh my God, and I have the opportunity.
When Tyler was in Flint to meet him.
He brought me backstage and met my Laurie as well.
And that was, that was before the movie actually.
No, I think it was after it came out when we finally got to meet
tire. But he is such a jewel and he's
such a personal to me the Flint. Yes.
All of that, yes. Well, I did not know that story
and but it's the truth. Watch a funny movie laughter.
Whatever can get, it's a healing power.
And, and even just like, You said, just that smile on your
face, can sometimes turn that day around.
Yes. So I'm a big believer in that
and and being raised in this Irish Catholic Family, humor,
humor is very important and will I used to say, I used to say to
people. It said, what, you know, you
don't drink. I said, yeah, I'm somewhere
because I'm supposed to drink as I'm Irish.
But I said know why I know that that it's either their choices,
either laughter or drinking and I chose laughter.
But any time I say that or anybody who's Irish they going,
dude, we do both, which you can do pop.
It's okay. Have a drink on me and keep
laughing. So anyways.
Alright, probably love you babe. So thank you for joining us.
Much love to you and your love you, too.
Yes thanks, we'll see you soon. Ok bye bye.
Take care. Wow.
It was really great to hear laila's voice and the strength
in her. After all these years of all
this loss, this grief it's very powerful.
We got thousands of emails on Friday night and on Saturday
morning at people wanting to share their love and strength
with Lila. And we also receive thousands of
emails over the weekend. The first part of the week here
from people who Loved hearing from former Marine Corporal
Abdul Henderson who appeared in my film Fahrenheit 9/11, here is
my conversation with Abdul. He was a Corporal in the United
States Marine Corps. He served in Iraq, in 2003, and
one of our producers of this film, Nikki Lazar was looking
for people and covering a A panel of military families speak
out against the war that had members of Congress.
There congressman John Conyers from Detroit Maxine Waters from
LA and Diane Watson from La so that's to LA and one Detroit on
the panel if you're keeping score at home but he gave a sort
of an impassioned speech. Talk comment there and Nikki
went over and talked. To him and then came back.
And we thought we would ask Abdul if he would like to be in
the film. And so we talked to him, we
interviewed him on camera. We did a lot of shooting around
Capitol Hill and then I asked them.
I was going to ask members of Congress as they went in out of
their Congressional buildings. If they would be willing to send
their son or daughter to Iraq and and see what they would say.
And I asked Abdul if he would do this, With me and so I'd like to
bring him on right now, are you retired or do we say former
former Corporal? Former Marine former Marine
former Marine mr. Abdul Henderson Abdul.
Thanks so much for being with us tonight.
No, no problem is good to see you again, Michael.
So why don't we talk about the story of that day where I asked
you, if you would join me in this search for a member of
Congress, or senator, who would be willing to have their kid in
a wreck because I had read somewhere prior to that that
there. Is only one Senator and no
members of Congress who had an offspring, the daughter or son
in Iraq. Except for one, there was one
Democrat. And that was it.
So I asked you if you wanted to join me and and then I thought
immediately, I'll choose I don't want to get you in trouble
because you know, your, your your first of all you're you're
still in the Marines, you are doing this with me, that's
important. Marshall, below fence, right
there. If there ever was One and and
you were doing it, you had your uniform on.
Yeah, and I thought, you know, my dad was a marine, so I kind
of know the rules and I thought, oh, this is really going to get
you in trouble. Just want me back to that to
that moment. There were, we were discussing
this before we decided whether or not, we should risk your
entire career. Yeah.
No. When I remember, we had the
conversation about wearing my uniform.
I was just like, let me, let me think about that one.
Right. So yeah, you were worried about
it. Oh yeah, yeah.
I knew gentlemen, legitimately it was that was going to be
life-changing because, you know, I have to make a decision that
that was virtually going to end my military career.
Right. Right, right.
You trevan cement, and you thought about.
Maybe you would stay in the Marines or originally.
I wanted to, I want to be a pilot man.
I'm doing 20 years. But after all, Rach, my whole
disposition changed. It's just, you know, they called
Iraq, the sandbox. And I didn't want to play in the
sandbox anymore. I remember when we were talking
there, before we started approaching members of Congress,
I asked you, you know, if called because you're still in the
Marines, would you go back after everything you'd seen in Iraq?
And you said know, if you get called up, you go back to Iraq.
No. You know what?
What repercussions do you face is possible?
Jail time? That's one possible thing.
Are you willing to risk that? Yes, it's sad.
I will not let my person. I will I will not let anyone
send me back over there to kill all the poor people especially
when they pose no threat to me and my country.
I won't do it. Then I remember stopping and
saying you want to, you want to say that on camera and you
thought about it? You said yes I do because it's
the truth. I'm not going to go back and
participate in and you would already I think told us to about
how you felt about what you saw there in Iraq.
So I said, okay, well then I guess worrying about wearing
your uniform is not your biggest concern now Yoo-hoo, Just you're
going to say publicly that you are going to disobey an order if
you have been ordered to go back and do whatever we were doing in
Iraq. Yeah no yeah wasn't going to go
back, you know, interesting enough.
I hadn't decided that until in that moment right?
I had had you had not decided until that moment.
Yeah I hadn't thought about it. Like I knew it was potentially
going to Get me in trouble but I had not thought about it but I
knew how I felt and so when you when you ask me it was really
simple for me at that point like nah not going back like it's
it's not ripping and you explain a little bit the film before the
people watching here. Right now, the reason you were
not going to go back and participate in what you felt was
this immoral. Illegal War me just explain.
How you got to that that position?
Yeah. Just from what I saw is that
Iraq posed. No immediate threat to America.
What we were told was all false and this dangerous imminent
threat that had weapons of mass destruction and have the
capability of launching attacks on Americans was wasn't real
like that country had no defenses.
We ran through there with Movies.
And for my unit, in, in the beginning of the conflict, you
know, we secured the oil fields. That was our first objective was
to go into the room oil fields and, you know, I think, you
know, we have a concept as Americans that the Middle East
has a lot of oil but when you get on the ground you actually
said you like oh my God, this stuff comes up out of the ground
like it's on its own. Right?
Yeah, it does Lakes of oil and it's just, it's like, wow.
So, you know, you kind of get the gist of what this war was
about. And, you know, I just didn't
want to have any part of having to kill anymore.
You know, people that didn't pose a threat to my country
because they clearly didn't ya, it's that famous quote from
Muhammad Ali. When they tried to draft him and
he refused to go To be a noun. And and he made that famous
statement about you. No, no, no Vietnamese ever
called me the n-word. Yeah, you know, it's like I
don't have a fight with them, they're not a threat to me so
but I'm I was actually thinking of his statement when you said
that on camera and I thought geez you know, Muhammad Ali was
like a really famous and beloved person body.
You know, at least half the country and he I mean, they
essentially, they arrested him, they booked him and his case
went all the way to the Supreme Court, you know?
So if Muhammad Ali had to go through that, I could only
imagine what they were going to do to you.
Because, you know, we were living in.
We've always been living in these times.
I want I keep saying, I think right now what we're going
through and I think, geez, I think we've been through this
before. Yeah, you know.
So, but okay. So anyways.
So then you agreed to be a recruiter with me there.
Yeah. Of the members of Congress and
tell me what you remember about that scene.
Because we were there for a good hour to yeah, you only see it
kind of a bit of it in the film, but but I'm just, I'm curious
how you were maintaining through that.
And what was how you were processing this?
Because these were like really powerful, I think men, mostly
all men that we were costing non-violently, but just tell me.
He just what I've never asked you this just what, what was
going through your head and and were you thinking of maybe
adding something else to the scene?
I was thinking like, man, this is crazy.
We give my ass of serious trouble.
Yeah, yes. Why did I let this guy talk me
into this but now it was interesting, you know, I found
it interesting that only a few members of Congress.
Engage most of it all. Yeah, run away.
But that's, you know that they ran.
And didn't they? Some of them ran?
Yeah. I think it was Congressman
Doolittle at the time. He got it, right?
Ran away and then we start after him.
But then I'm thinking. Why is he running?
He could, he could literally Escape me, just threw a casual
walk. Well, I mean, I every American
at some point in their life should be able to have the
experience of a congressman. Seeing them and running from
them, wouldn't it be a great shared American experience but
do you remember any of the others or their their response
to us? One gentleman.
Think he had served in a maybe I don't remember his name.
He actually stopped and and chatted with this and I think he
shared some some similar sentiment in terms of that other
members of Congress need to have some skin in the game.
You know, why not their children be on the Lines for these these
these Wards, you know, why don't they have that shared sacrifice
like many of us other Americans that volunteer right, right.
Either some of them didn't get the point where they really got
the point and wanted nothing to do with us.
There were a couple that were friendly.
If I remember correctly, though. I think we saw that just one of
them maybe this there. I just thought well, you know,
they're politicians, there's a red light on the camera.
It's very Seductive to them because they are always looking
for the red light to be on camera, to be on TV.
But at the end of the day, it was really kind of a, kind of a
real kind of at some point. It wasn't funny anymore and it
was just kind of a kick in the gut.
Wasn't it? Just like, yeah, of course, send
everybody else's kid, but no, no, no way not yours, right?
Right. So, since then, how he been
doing, I mean, obviously, you left the Marines did you get in
any trouble? They did investigate me.
I think they, I truly wanted to court-martial me and throw me
under the prison, but none of that happened.
I end up having to go back to my unit and I kind of just some
just floated kind of under the radar as much as possible until
my time right out. So fortunately nothing happened
that I did my time. I was honorably discharged and I
went on with my life. Hmm.
Wow. Well that's that's guy.
No, we offered you before we left there that day that we will
get you an attorney and pay for it if there's you know any
trouble. So maybe when the film came out
to it they probably maybe they thought.
You know what? This is going to be more trouble
that we need. If we go after this, this young
guy, you know, let's just, let's just hope nobody sees the film.
And I, when I, when I had conversations with my command
staff at the time, once the movie came out, I'm out and I
was just like, yeah, won't be doing anything in uniform again,
right? I was kind of just like, but
that's not going to prevent me from speaking out as a, you
know, as an American at this, won't be representing the Marine
Corps in uniform because as an American, I have a right to
express. My my opinion, I do have the
right to free speech, right? When we have the premier there,
the Washington DC premiere There are a number of members of
Congress and Senators. They came to that screening and
more than ones, you know, pulled me aside and said, if that young
Marine needs any help, just let us know.
And I said, you know, I will but so you got out of the Marines
and what's your life been like since then?
I've I met you and we've run across each other numerous times
in past years. In fact, you were working for Or
a member of Congress at one point you weren't you like the
person that was like the the civilian person that that sort
of helped run the Congressional Black Caucus in my right in.
Remembering that? Yeah yeah.
So the first represent I worked for Diane Watson.
Hmm. Ultimately became her chief of
staff and then retired. And then I work for Karen bass,
who replaced her for a very short period.
Really, really went on to work at the Department of Veterans
Affairs. Why I read home?
Let the Department's International and engagement
working with are our allies, mainly Canada, Australia, and
New Zealand and the United Kingdom.
Actually, there's some really good work in helping veterans in
that space. Did that for a few years.
And then I went back to Capitol Hill as the executive director
of the Congressional Black Caucus and okay already this is
better than being In a movie starring.
Yeah. Everything you just said is so
and makes them far greater contribution to our society.
So wow. So that's right.
I remembered that and I thought damn Abdul's done well but we
sort of knew that about you. Anyways that that day there in
d.c., you were a very special person and had guts and the
courage to do this to do this on camera, all of that.
So how's life been since The executive director of the
Congressional Black Caucus was, it's been interesting.
I'm just kind of watched this transition that our country is
going to because I left after two years into that.
So as the as the as a trump train pulled in, I moved out and
so I found to Georgia to be closer to my son's because
they're in high school. My oldest son, Alex is now a
senior in high school so we're getting ready for him to bring
my youngest son. Son, he's in the 10th grade and
doing well. So I came to Georgia to be
closer to them. I was here for a couple of years
and then left the San Francisco and then I end up working with
Tom steyer and I was his Deputy campaign manager for his
presidential campaign in 2010. Wow, yeah.
So a lots been going on. But nah.
Now I'm back in Georgia, I'm running a mental health
nonprofit called Mental Health, America of Georgia.
And we're trying to get Georgia from being last place.
In terms of access to mental health care and making sure that
they enforce the parity law, to make sure that insurance is
going to cover mental health and substance abuse care that people
that are paying for insurance, you know, expect so right.
I now we have to get to that place.
Where when we talk about Healthcare, we're not just
talking about medical right here.
We're talking about mental and dental, All or mental Dental is
what I would put on my bumper sticker, If I was running for
anything. But no, we need all of this
because it's all connected and I'm glad, I'm so glad to know
that you're doing this there in Georgia that such important work
Abdul and everybody knows that now I just, I hope I denotes
that knows it because when they're ready to push forward on
the, you know, getting Universal Health Care for everyone, you
know, that's got to be part of it.
Yeah. I hope so too.
We have a long way to go this this pandemic has definitely
showed some some huge fissures in the you know them and
unfortunately we weren't prepared to deal with it and
weird suffering from the consequences of not being
prepared, right? How have you and your family
been with covid, everybody. Okay, everybody's fine
interesting. Being enough.
Everyone had got covid at some point but me me and went all
night Nate who is now deceased he had passed away from
Parkinson's dementia related stuff.
Michael, I'm sorry but everybody's fine, where were all
vaccinated. We're just taking measures to
stay safe and right. Maintain a good balance, right?
Well, we all have to get through this because we have, A lot of
work to do, is there anything you like to save, just to give
you the final word here to just speak directly to all these
people who are very concerned about.
I think a lot of the things that are going on right now and the
various fights ahead of us and those who want to stop,
President Biden from enacting the things he's trying to do.
I'm just curious what your take would be and what you'd like to
just. I just open up the floor to you
and speak directly. To all the people out there.
Yeah, I appreciate that one out. Just like to.
Thank everybody who supported me through a very difficult time
and going through that process because at the time when the
film did come out, everyone 90% of everybody was in support of
the war on terror, right? Right, yeah.
And so for those who supported me through that and taking that
step Yes, I really do appreciate and love you all, you know?
I I think, you know, as I think about the last 20, plus years of
what's been going on in the u.s. I think we have to do a little
bit better and holding people accountable, right?
We still have an issue of accountability in this country.
We've allowed elected officials to to go on, to just move that
as quo. When the American people are
clearly moving in a different direction, our country is a lot
more diverse but we still see, tremendous, lacks, lack of
diversity and Equity. You know, we just people need to
stay involved in Civic engagement.
Is the Bedrock and Foundation of our Republic.
And in order to maintain that one, we have to be engaged one.
We must demand and seek the truth and we have to stay
informed. We can't just re clickbait and
decide that it's fact, we have to go a little bit deeper than
that and we need to question that question.
What people tell us You know, there's there's ways to do it
with civil discourse. We don't have to hate one
another. We can do it where we can agree
to disagree but you know we have to challenge the system to do
better because if we continue at this rate, I feel that we could
assume just you know, end up in the north or south or east or
west situation. It's we're coming out of
stereos. roads right now, but the good thing is, I always
believe I'm very hopeful in people.
There are a lot of great people that are doing a lot of great
things and I will continue to work with you Michael and others
that are promoting fairness and justice for everybody.
And I've been committed to that fight even before we met and
that I'm committed to that. And as a middle-aged adult now.
Right? Right.
Yeah. It's not time to retire from
that not yet, not yet. All of us, have that
responsibility. Well, thank you for those.
Good words to people out there who are watching this right now.
And thank you so much for being in my film.
Thank you for taking that risk. I was grateful.
Then I'm grateful now and watching this this film, now all
these Years later. Yeah, so proud to have been able
to stand there beside you and disrupt that that particular day
for certain number of members of Congress.
So thank you and I really appreciate you it some of the
time that we even spent even doing the 04 election cycle.
Yes, going around the Battleground States and I was
great. That was that was that was
great. So I appreciate the work that
you and your team does to keep people engaged and it's it's
been one of the proudest moments of my life to stand by you and
that fighting back at you on that one.
Thank you so much. And let's make sure we stay in
good touch and let me know if I can help it down there.
In Georgia, we all are thinking about Georgia for the last year.
Grateful, the people of Georgia. You for saving us.
They're not quite completely saved yet, but man, it would
have been much worse without those two senators being
elected. So man, something is rocking
there in Georgia. I'm glad you're part of it, so
be well and take care of tool and let's so let's talk soon.
Yeah, it's good seeing you. Wow, so so great to hear from
Abdul and by the way, you can watch both of these
conversations with video with both Lila and Abdul on YouTube.
And we'll have the link for it right here on the podcast
description page. You can also watch Fahrenheit
9/11 on YouTube and links. Again, we'll be here in the
description. We decided there's so many
people that couldn't watch it Friday night for this reasons,
especially if they lived in Europe, it was 3:00 in the
morning. So I promised you that we would
find a way so that you two could watch a free version of
Fahrenheit 9/11. And now you can do that at your
leisure just by going to the link here on the description
page for this podcast. Thanks to all of you who have
become paid members to our sub stack in the past few days.
I encourage you to sign up if you can, so that you can
participate in my first If Q&A which will be coming up next
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Be it film or streaming series, or whatever.
We're going to be doing here in the coming year.
Be part of it. We welcome you, we need you.
And we'll have fun together doing the Ruckus that we're
going to create. So everybody, thank you so much
for participating in today's podcast Rumble with Michael
Moore. Right.
Thanks to our executive producer, basil hamdan our
editor and sound engineer. Nick was a researcher Harrison
Malkin are jack-of-all-trades. Donald Bornstein, my friends,
thank you for tuning into this Rumble with Michael Moore.
I'll be back with next week's podcast.
There's a lot going on. Become a paid member by Friday
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cool and you could be a founding member by doing that.
So thank you for that. Thank you for all the work that
you're doing out there. There every week, man.
It's something, isn't it? And we had a victory this week
in California. Very cool.
More victories, more work, more the fight so that we can protect
and preserve our democracy. Thank you.
My friends be well and enjoy the weekend.