This is Rumble with Michael Moore and yes, I am Michael
Moore. Today, I'm Rumble.
We're going to be talking about what we must do to succeed next
year in the midterm elections in 2022, and Beyond.
And to do that, I've got a great guest, a professor of Law and of
history at Yale University. He had a great op-ed this week
and I If you would come on the show and talk about what it is,
the landscape of what we're facing because we were fighting
lots of people on the right. But we're also fighting the the
so-called moderate or Centrist Democrats.
And his name is Samuel Moines and he will be my guest here
shortly, the. But before we do that, I have a
big announcement to make something I've been wanting to
do for like 30 years since my first film, I mean, I get asked
about this all the time and I think myself and you got to do
this you when he sees you got to do this because you know people
I keep bugging you and in the end I'm plus I think it's a cool
idea and whatever so finally after all these years of not
having my own ball caps or t-shirts or whatever to offer
here online and to use it to also help.
Some good causes I have finally done it.
I have pulled the trigger on this and in the last 24, Eight
hours I have opened up what? I'm calling, the more store, the
more store, it's finally launched and it's live in its
online. And all you have to do is go to
store dot Michael more.com and I mean I can't say how many times
over these 30 years since my first film I get stopped on the
street or wherever and hey I want to get it.
One of the ball cap for your movie or you know don't you have
like any t-shirts or is it? No, I know.
I've never really had time to do.
Ooh, that I've been meaning to do it.
I haven't done it and well. Now I've done it.
If the pandemic sitting working at home in lockdown, what can I
do with my time? I know, I can finally open the
more store and sell these hats and t-shirts and coffee mugs and
other cool stuff. And so, we've done it store dot
Michael Morin.com, we've got dog-eat-dog films, hats and
hoodies. We've got Rumble, do it?
Rumble. All over the Billy.
We got Rumble, coffee mugs, we got Rumble t-shirts.
Three different kinds of t-shirts, we have the rumble
ball cap. So if you'd like to get one of
these for yourselves or as a present for the holidays, here,
I'd be happy to provide you with the very very first edition of
all of these things. And a portion of these proceeds
are going to go primarily to help support the progressive
causes and movements that I believe in.
But also to groups that are trying to protect the Arts in
schools to bring back Music. Theater in our public schools,
and also Civics classes, which seem to be disappearing more and
more these days. So, there are groups set up to
help do this. And I will help support that
with the proceeds, from this merchandise.
That's Michael Moore, Rumble, merchandise.
So, now some of you are asking what's a dog-eat-dog hat Doggy?
Dogg is the name of my production company.
We named it though. Somewhere a journey and it's
been the name of our company that we, you know, that we make
the film's from for 30 plus years and it's just from the old
saying, you know, it's a dog-eat-dog world, you've heard
that, in this case, meaning you'll see when you see the logo
of the two, dogs one's a big, bully corporate type dog, and
the other is a cute little puppy Underdog.
It looks like the bullies getting ready to cause great
harm to the little dog. But if you see the animation of
this, let's just say that. The the big bully or bird dog
does not win. So we just came up with us and
many, many years ago. We made crew hats for the crew
back in, you know, in the day, we have these dog-eat-dog hats
and we had dog-eat-dog just for ourselves.
And I just said, when we were putting this together here
during the lockdown. What if we, why don't we offer
our crew hoodies in our crew, hats to the public?
I don't think anybody has worked on my movies with mind.
It's kind of, you know, just let some Remembers anybody gets a
ball cap or a hoodie or whatever.
They're part of Doggy Dogg films and so, so it'll it, I think on
the hoodie, it says crew, but these are what these we are
crew, hoodies and hats for dog-eat-dog and I really like
it. It's very cool and there'll be a
link to the more start right here in the description of this
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And if you have anything that you'd like me to offer make
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So there you go, there it is. Finally 30 years in the making
launched this week. The more store and I think is
this a good time to make the big announcement here.
So in the last week or so, here we have here on Rumble with
Michael Moore we have surpassed the 30 millionth down Download
30 million downloads and we're not even two years old.
This this podcast 30 million downloads of Rumble with Michael
Moore and it's so kind of blown our minds to say the least.
So grateful to all of you out there for all of you who
participate in Rumble with Michael Moore and thanks to all
my great guests that I've been, if come on the podcast in these
first 22 months, much appreciation to everyone and we
were so happy that we could announce this Finally today that
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man, real mind-blower much gratitude to everybody in my
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And boy, was it revealing now? A lot of people thought when
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documentaries and if I just shut up and just let the opposition
speak, they will reveal more than I could ever get out of
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this past Sunday's Letter there, Michael more.com, it's you'll
get a good dose of this guy, herb shankman, and and idea what
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fans of satire or whatever. Just, you know, give it a chance
here, you know, Monty Python wasn't all wrong, let me just
say that. Okay, I'll leave it at that.
And speaking of herb shankman and all the Other kind of hacks
that we've had to put up with old-school Democrats.
That's what we're going to talk about here on today's show.
We've got this, as I said, this great guest who will be joining
us here professor of Law and history at Yale University,
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out our guest on the podcast today.
Let me just set it up by acknowledging that late last
Friday night, the Democrats passed a 1.2 trillion dollar,
physical infrastructure Bill, and this will provide as many of
you know, much needed money for roads, and bridges, and
railroads, and internet access and some more money to build the
electric car. Charging stations.
Electric school buses. There's a few thousand of those,
you know, and some other things, however, they did not Congress
did not as promised. Also vote on the build back
better. Human infrastructure, Bill,
build back better. Let's just call Woodbine was
trying to do with a second Bill. The human infrastructure Bill.
And that was going to invest, massive amounts of money into
Health Care, Child Care, Elder Care, Medicare expansion and
other Other extremely popular and much needed programs after
Nancy, Pelosi and per mil Ajay Bell friend of the show and the
progressive caucus Friends of the show, both demanded and
promised that both of these bills would get voted on
together. They all blinked, only the
smaller, physical infrastructure, bill, That has
the backing of corporate America, because, of course,
those corporations. We rely on those roads and
bridges and railroads, and airports that the government
funds so that they can sell their products in run their
businesses, only that bill passed and all the leverage that
the progressive caucus, once held to make sure that the build
back better Bill. The human infrastructure bill
would get funded and passed. That Leverage is now evaporated
only six house, Democrats Rasheeda, ALC, Jamal, Bowman
ilhan, Omar khouri, Bush, and Ayana Presley.
Stuck to their promise and stuck to their guns, demanding.
That the house only vote on both of these bills together and so,
they are obviously taking a lot of crap now from the mainstream
media. And the Democratic party
establishment for bucking their party in sticking to their word
and their principals. This all comes in the wake of
last Tuesday's elections where The Usual Suspects are all
calling for the Democratic party to scale back all their big
ideas and moved to the center. This includes chipping away at
Biden's. Build back better Bill and
really watering it down now. So that at some point, what's
the point? This, my friends is trouble.
It's big trouble for us for the country for the planet.
So to discuss this problem and figure out what to do.
Now, I am joined today, by Samuel Moines.
Samuel is both a law professor and a history professor at Yale
University. And in the guardian this week,
he has an op-ed saying, quote, if Democrats return to centrism,
they are doomed to lose against Trump.
Biden was once touted as the new FD r-- that ambition is fast
dying. As our Democratic hopes of
remaining in power Sam, Welcome to our humble.
Thanks for having me, Michael. So let's just jump right into
this. Why did Pelosi See blank.
And why did the progressive caucus blank?
Well, it's very hard to understand because the, if you
think the election mattered, it was already over.
If there were lessons to be drawn, it wasn't necessary to
rush into them, you know, if the Democrats have to win in 2022,
there's a time to figure out how to do that.
And so it's very hard to understand why it was necessary.
Sorry to separate the two bills, and yet the mainstream of the
Democrats, and some progressives decided to do it, and as you say
losing leverage, over the bigger ticket build back better.
They'll so I think, you know, we have to take a guess one is that
this is what a lot of Democrats wanted to happen.
They're still in the thrall of the old ideologies of austerity,
And, and neoliberalism, and they saw an opportunity to, basically
terrorized some progressives into, you know, the wrong, the
wrong course. And, fortunately six said, no, I
don't know how to feel about this.
I mean, obviously, I've had a lot of progressive members of
the House out my podcast here. I know a number of them pretty
well and, and Great admiration for them.
And I guess somehow they think and what I'd like to be proven
wrong here like to just trust their judgment on this.
They think it's all going to be okay.
They've got a letter or something, from five of the more
moderate members of the House. Who said that, if the
Congressional budget office score shows that this doesn't
wreck the economy, then they'll be there, and they'll vote for
this bill. And we're going to get these,
you know, a limited version. Not the original three point
five trillion, but, you know, 1.75 trillion.
We're going to well have the votes at least in the house?
I still haven't heard that. There's anything from Cinema or
Mansion saying that they are going to vote for this.
So what do you think here? What's I'm asking you to be to
predict you're asking the right questions it you know we trust
jayapal. I mean she's she's been the
leader of the progressive caucus and she's presented to This
Arrangement, and she must have a level of trust as you mention
some some of her colleagues gave her a assurances, of course,
some like Abigail shamburger refused to do so.
But as you also, you know, say they game for build back better
as much more in the Senate and no assurances from any, anyone
in the house, can can I I think provide a lot of optimism that
any, you know, significant version of a social spending
Bill, human infrastructure, as you call it.
What can make it through that other house, the Senate?
So I really hope that you know, the, the the cards have been
played well, but it doesn't look like it to me.
We can think of so many, you know, off ramps for the Centrist
one is to, you know, take the pricing that, you know, they've
said, is they just have to wait for as an excuse to back out of
the deal, you know? But without leverage, they can
find any excuse or none to Scuttle the build back better
bill or just reduce it, you know, even by you know, the
another Thousand Cuts that it's already suffered and even then
the Senate is anyone's guess. So, I'm, I'm it was a very
depressing moment because, you know, you called Trump's
election last time around when no one did, I think?
Now we have to see that if we don't mobilize the state, for
those who are stagnating, we will incur their wrath and
rightly. So, And yet the lessons don't
seem to be learned from 2016. Even though for four years, we
insisted that we were on the brink of fascism, right?
So a lot of people came out to vote in 2020 who had not voted
in a long time if ever and, and so Biden, got more votes than
any president in our history and beat Trump by over seven million
votes. I've had this feeling that a lot
of them came out because these promises were made.
These really basic promises. I'm not talking about the really
radical stuff. Maybe some people.
I know like me would would be voting for if I were in
Congress. These things are not radical.
That old people should be able to get eyeglasses their teeth
checked a hearing aid or to you know the Pre-K all this stuff.
It's not it's not these are radical ideas, why?
Why are we even having to worry about this?
When the American people have made it clear, they wanted the
Democrats in power, both the White House, the house and the
Senate. Well, you know it is a great
question because it's it's it's a minor stuff and in the context
of industrial democracies and in fact, what what has already been
stripped out of build back better which, you know, free
free. College long ago, Family Leave
more recently is also standard, you know, Universal
single-payer, health care what wasn't in it at any point.
And these are so basic to what American citizenship ought to
involve that it's it's no wonder that people are, are, are
disappointed. And, you know, I also have to
add to, you know what you said that while Biden got the most
votes of any presidential candidate in US history, Trump
got the second most because it was just that that, you know,
mobilized and electorate. And I'm very worried because it
could be the last chance of the Democrats to kind of offer a
Double package to the working people of the country and it
seems like they're missing it and that's sad because they we
were warned for years. That if we missed it again we
really might not have a country. Anything like the one with we've
had before and then we were told that Biden was FDR saving us as
Roosevelt did in the third. He's from all the terrible
Alternatives of that era, but then to go minimal.
It just doesn't seem like they could have been telling the
truth or been serious before. Hmm.
Why don't they understand that, by not delivering on these
promises? That why people went to the
polls and voted for them that if they don't pass this bill, if
they don't do other things for it.
Now, remember, we're not even talking about voting rights
anymore, if they don't do these things, what makes them think
that people are going to come out next year in and vote for
them. I just, I'm beside myself with
this. And I read your op-ed and I
thought Yes, exactly. Why don't the Democrats
understand this? Well II you know not to get
cynical but I think they do understand it.
And the Centrist have made a calculation that they can't lose
the support of the Rich and they recognize that, you know,
wealthier suburbanite. See also went for Biden last
time. And they don't like higher
taxes, though. They hate Trump and that the,
the Centrist can squeak by And that's that seems to be their
bet but it's it's an enormous risk to encourage us to keep the
rich happy. And there's a whole nother part
of the electorate that f.d.r. had and that the Democrats had
for a generation that you could get back by abandoning the rich
to their own devices. And, you know, doing something,
you know, for working people finally, right?
And I really worry that the bet that the Centrist have made will
blow up in are all all of our faces and and do they know
something about us though, us on the left that most of us?
It seems some of us will back down.
Will eventually say, you know what, we just got to get we can
get right now and then and we'll deal with it later.
Like like a lot of people said when ObamaCare was passed which
by the way that was past 12 years ago. 12 years ago.
Yeah. Whoo.
We'll work on that. Single-payer thing or some of
this other stuff. Let's just get this.
In past 12 years later, where are we?
Exactly. And I have a hard time
explaining some of those who, you know, trusted Biden or were
willing to you know, stop holding this infrastructure Bill
hostage in order to get the human infrastructure.
And that's where I think we have to get into this.
This narrative that crystallized so quickly around And the, you
know, defeat of Terry McAuliffe in in the Virginia gubernatorial
campaign last week because suddenly the Centrist could say,
you're going too far and that's why we lost your supporting
critical race theory in school. When a lot of Virginians were
just upset that, you know, we would react to the pandemic by
closing schools. For so long.
And I, I think that there was a sense after after McAuliffe lost
that there was like an emergency, but it just perplexes
me that the response to the emergency would be to return to
the center, when that's what McCall up stood for his whole
career, as a kind of apparatchiks, of, of the, of
Bill Clinton. And A kind of critic of moving
beyond austerity and neoliberalism for decades.
And yet the response has been to take the that race as a warning.
Not to move left, not to think about a more generous social
contract for for our fellow Americans.
And it's not just Virginia. Look at what a horrible loss in
Jersey loss, he won the governor won every election has Winners
and losers that I just boy they just went overboard on this
though. Look at the, you know, the
Democrats lost in the this and that and man Boston's got a
great new mayor. I mean, I can I can cite races
all over the country last week that actually turned out quite
well. And and yet they pounding away
and then they brought out the big guns Mark pain.
The you know, the the old-school guy that rang the clintons
campaigns Etc. Sarah the New York Times.
Editorial board came out, chastising progressives and
saying that the Democratic party doesn't get to get more moderate
than we're going to lose. And it's like, this is the great
liberal New York Times. I'm just like, wow, they're
pulling them all. They must be really afraid of
the progressives and of the country which has become
Progressive because again, people listen to rumble.
No, I say these polls all the time that the majority of
Americans take The the the liberal left Progressive
position on just about every issue and and supported by wide
margins of 6070. Sometimes, 80% done controls
90%, it's they are misreading the country because they don't
want to lose their power. That's how I look at it.
What do we do about this? Well, I think there's there's
got to be a short-term strategy and a long-term one.
I mean because as you know we are We are seeing change and
we're seeing more resistance to the military spending and the
endless Wars and Democrats have have begun to internalize and
even some Republicans that you don't just fight a war because
it's there and and on domestic policy.
I think it's it's it's it's it's just you know, terrifying to
some of these Centrist that they could be forced into baking in a
kind of new entitlement because they know that once that happens
as with Social Security in the 1930s you can't get rid of it
because people come to expect it as like a basic, right of
citizenship. And so all of these things that
the Democrats began to offer on that the progressive support.
And that as you say, the American people, I want in in by
huge margins. You know, we're coming up to the
brink and there's just Terror that they'll actually be forced
to give them out and then pay for them through taxation and
that's what these old Centrist. You know, have to forbid at all
costs. And so it was amazing that the
New York Times wrote this editorial.
Handing that Democrats accept a Centrist political reality.
All right. Because what what that meant
was, you know, returning to the center.
Not just on one or two issues like critical race Theory or
police abolition but on these economic matters on bread and
butter, you know, No popular entitlements to that, you know,
so many Americans not just deserve but say they want and
no, they want. So we've got to run more
Progressive candidates and do it outside cities and begin to
reconstitute From Below. You know, FDR's Coalition which
was was so popular for so long and In the short term, I think
it just means keeping the pressure up and supporting our
progressives. You know, if they're, if they're
being Cami and Machiavellian and maybe Jaya Paul is doing that,
maybe she's mistaken but definitely supporting those that
won't take no for an answer like AOC and the rest of the squad.
That so heroically said that, if you give up your leverage, you
give up the Salt and so I think we've got a, you know, we've got
a count on the emergence of a new generation that is beyond
neoliberalism that fears. The you know, the ecological
crisis that is already upon us. That doesn't understand doesn't
understand that. Why they're rich have you know
gained ownership of our political system.
And so it's a matter of time. I just hope it's not too late
given where you know the Trump or some other Republican could
take the country and 20-24 when the discussion comes up over
Thanksgiving dinner in a week or so.
And and the more moderate Democrats at the table are
chastising the rest of us for. We may be blowing at you're
blowing this sort of, This is sort of, they've bought the
they've took the soup here and they bought the this kind of
misleading characterization that progressives are going to be the
death of us. And, you know, if you were at
that table and somebody, you know, maybe more conservative
than you, but, you know, still a Democrat would say that to you.
What would your answer be? Well, it's a great question,
Michael, because I will be at that table and it's a good
thing. I didn't know that I need, I
need, you know, some of your ideas but what I'll tell you is
that it's unclear how we can return to the policy that caused
the situation. To get out of it and yet that's
what the Centrist are, you know, insisting, on.
And it's, it is, it's just, it's hypocritical that so many of
them watching MSNBC, you know, said that we really needed
emergency action and we do because we've gotten a respite
From the far right for four years really to given.
What what's likely to happen in 2022.
And if we don't act, then just as they said, while Trump was
President, we may lose the country and and yet then to
return to this, to the same, you know, kind of talking points
about inflation and Taxation. And, and frankly, you know, the,
the welfare state itself that were so common for so many
years. Alienating the working class
from their old, you know, their old party, then we will deserve
to lose. I don't want that to happen.
I think, I think all of us should just double down right
now. A lot of work to do this year
this coming year and it just trust that the majority of
Americans agree with us. They want help with childcare
with taking care of their parents.
They want they want an expanded Medicare.
In fact, they want to for everybody, like you said, the
single parents, not even on the table yet.
All of these things, when you ask the pollsters, ask the
American people. Do you want this stuff?
Do you believe women should have the right to control their own
bodies? The vast majority of Americans
are on our side. This is not the Time for us to
give up or to be thinking O Mansion and Cinema, they've
wrecked it for all of us. This is this is we have to get
smart, we have to think differently, you know?
We have to float like a butterfly and sting like a bee.
I mean we just that's how I'm looking at it right now in
Andover upcoming episodes. As we get into the new year, you
know, people I will talk about some of the specifics, but
before you go and I know you have a lecture to give I figured
today, Boston College is that right?
Yeah. And in some day.
So we explain to me the difference between Boston
College and bu and BC Boston University, I just you know,
made a Midwestern. I don't I don't understand why
we need both of them. Em.
And I only understand what they do differently.
But I've been told they're very different so but that's not.
That's not my last question here.
My last question is that you have written about and spoken
about and I think teach in your history classes are at Yale
about the Supreme Court and and things that I thought, I knew
that were in the Constitution, aren't there about the Supreme
Court or about the so-called three co-equal, branches of
government, all that stuff, we were taught in school, that Kind
of stuff isn't really quite stated that way in the
Constitution and you've written recently of how we must not
despair that we can't do anything about the Supreme Court
that we're stuck with now until you know, dazzles grandchildren
are born. So I'm just what tell us and
just the brief amount of time that we have here, what, what
can be done to fix this awful situation?
So you know, you and I took Civics back in the Cold War and
we were Were told that the Supreme Court is indispensable
for justice, but it turns out it's not and it's it's trade
beyond the purposes that it should have in the Constitution
gives it which is just to enforce the law that the
legislature makes and to give people a place to you know get
protection from the law that the legislature makes and so what we
have to redo it, do is cut it down to size.
Eyes and protect our rights as they've mostly been protected
through Congress and it's it's not that you know the Supreme
Court has never done good things but it was its it was rare and
it's not coming back. It's the most business-friendly
Court in a century and as you say it's no longer protecting
African Americans and women especially when it Comes to
abortion rights which have already been you know, treated
to death by a Thousand Cuts. And so I think what we have to
do is kind of teach a new civics class to ourselves and our
fellow citizens where we say we can't rely on the the court to
save us we have to save ourselves and then let it let
it, you know, have have the roll it ought to have Just, you know,
enforce the law rather than overturn it, you know, Obamacare
multiple lawsuits the Supreme Court on in the first of those
lawsuits. As you know, cut out the
Medicaid, expansive expansion, which Congress approved and
consign some of the poorest Americans blacks in the South
mostly to to, you know, No lesser program and so across the
board, I think we're entering a new era when we can revisit what
powers, the court ought to have and stop censoring our laws or
throwing them out altogether. Is one of the solutions, adding
four more justices to the Supreme Court so that the damage
that prompted to it is at least for now.
I think it here it's worth considering because you know
especially if we think there was skulduggery and Mitch McConnell
is no stranger to skulduggery. But you know, right in the long
term, who's on the court is a separate question from what
powers they ought to enjoy. Remember across partisan lines,
these justices including you know the notorious RGB and other
liberals have been very business-friendly you know,
because they're close to the Democratic party and its old
Incarnation and so I think ultimately we need to change the
role of the court and changing who's up there on it who gets to
rule from on high is is not the answer.
Well, I know we don't talk about much about the Supreme Court
these days because we had so many other things we're dealing
with. We're in the middle of a global
pandemic, but I'll post a couple things here that you've written
and encourage people to read them.
And also your book that's out right now, I'll put a link to
that here on our podcast page but I don't want to give up on
this idea that we have to fix the damage.
Brutal damage that's been done to the court over the years.
And the long-term thing that you've raised here which is just
the power that the Supreme Court has and getting that
straightened out. It's somewhere in the last
century, we fell into a different way of thinking about
the Supreme Court and I'm sure it's the way that Corporate
America wanted us to think and it benefited them, but that's
that can't continue. So I know everybody's listening
on Mike. Not another thing.
I got to think about, yes, I know it's hard.
It's hard but you know what? The people were in the French
Resistance, do that must have been hard.
Hard, you know, they didn't get to go to a soccer game at 5:00
in the afternoon. They didn't get to do any, I
mean, this is the way it happens.
This way, history goes, sometimes, it's hard and Sam.
I'm so appreciative that you took the time today to, to come
on and talk about what's happened in the last week and
how we must not give in or give up.
And that always trust and know that we represent the majority
of the people in this country. Well, it's a real privilege to
be with you. Well, thank you very much.
Please come back on and talk to us again and I shall not
despair. Let's talk just close on that.
Thank you so much. Samuel Moines, Our Guest here
law professor history, professor at Yale University and
occasional lecturer at Boston College.
Not Boston University. All right, thanks so much Sam.
All right thanks bye bye. All right people Okay, so that's
it here on Rumble with Michael Moore.
I want to thank my guests, Samuel Moines.
And I really want to thank the 30 million of you out there who
have downloaded episodes of this podcast over its first 20 21, 22
months, much appreciated. And please share it with your
family and friends. And please know that I have
extreme gratitude for you joining with me in this podcast.
Thanks also to See who in the first day or two, here have
gotten your ball caps and t-shirts and hoodies and coffee
mugs and stickers, and everything else.
We got at the more store. It's very cool to watch this
happen and we will be able to provide some good funds to the
different groups that I support Progressive groups and
movements, and also those who are fighting to get our music
and Theater Arts classes, back in our public schools, and
Civics classes. This is a just a big man, big
thing. That's bugging me for a number
of years now, and we can't let this happen to the Next
Generation. So thanks everybody for tuning
in. Thanks to basil and Dick, and
Donald and Harrison for helping me out here.
And I will see you again next week here on Rumble.
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Be safe. Be well, do good work and thanks
for being part of this. This is Michael Moore in this is
Rumble.