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This is Rumble with Michael 
Moore and I'm Michael Moore. 

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Thank you for joining me today. 
Last night, Donald Trump tweeted

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at me using the middle of one of
those big, Twitter, storms and 

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decided to throw me in, always a
pleasure. 

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I have I responded I won't take 
up your time with it here and 

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you can go on Twitter or 
Facebook or Instagram and check 

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it out. 
I've got more important business

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here today because I have on the
show with me. 

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One of my favorite people, 
somebody whom I met just three 

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days after Chrome selection, 
we're both on Morning, Joe 

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together and the things that he 
said, than what I've listened to

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him say sense and what he's 
written. 

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He had a book out this year, 
called winners, take all very 

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powerful voice that I want you 
to hear some of you. 

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I'm sure know him and if you 
don't, I want you to please get 

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to know him and pay attention to
him. 

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Because he's saying some very 
important things about about the

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thing, I'm most concerned about 
which is not just getting rid of

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trump, but getting rid of that 
which gave us Trump. 

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So, if we don't do that, then 
we'll just get the next Trump 

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down the road here, and that's 
unacceptable my guest today is 

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Anand, Gare du Das. 
Okay. 

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So just so people know, I mean 
you who were For many years of 

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foreign correspondent and 
columnist for the New York 

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Times, you currently teach a 
journalism at NYU correct? 

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Yeah. 
The certain student teaching 

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this this year, but last year 
and what and what are you doing 

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this year? 
You know, I published my third 

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book last year, the fall of last
year winners, take all the elite

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charade of changing the world 
and my plan was to go on a, you 

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know, three-week book tour, the 
way you normally do. 

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And Having done this twice 
before I sort of understood that

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that, you know, three weeks 
might be a little too long 

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relative to the Public's 
interest in it. 

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But, you know, I would do it and
something happened with this 

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book that I had never really 
experienced before, which is 

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that? 
It I got very lucky with the 

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moment that we were in and the 
kind of series of moments that 

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we've been in since last fall, 
different moments in which the 

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criticism of a book and the of 
the book, and then the Summons 

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of the book, The the Criticism 
of a world in which plutocrats 

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have taken over wealth and power
and have used the idea of 

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helping us to entrench, their 
rule have used the idea of 

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giving back to deepen, 
plutocracy have used the gloss 

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of making a difference to 
further their opportunities to 

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make a killing that that I got a
lot of help over the last year 

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from these people just throwing 
evidence of this into all of our

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faces. 
I mean, starting with the 

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plutocratic president who 
literally had a fake Charity ran

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with the Sackler family. 
Being finally brought to some 

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measure of justice for causing 
the opioid crisis and donating a

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fraction of the spoils to Arts 
patronage. 

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So that, you know, people 
journalists and Regulators who 

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live in big fancy cities, would 
only know them for their museums

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and not be preoccupied with the 
thought that they were killing 

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people. 
You know, I think a real 

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Reckoning around Jeff Bezos and 
Amazon and starting to 

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understand that as more than a 
story of convenience. 

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A real Reckoning around Mark 
Zuckerberg and Tech and what it 

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actually means for someone to 
sell out democracy itself, for a

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few percentage points of growth,
lust the book, I think exploded 

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into the the behaviors that were
all around us and now into this 

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presidential conversation. 
So I've spent a lot of last year

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going around and kind of talking
and teaching about it. 

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My old attitude, I don't know if
you've gone through this as a 

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filmmaker. 
I old attitude used to be like, 

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this is my work people. 
Like you drop the work and you 

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go home, and like, you read my 
work, it read my work, and I've 

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realized that we don't live in a
read. 

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My work are anymore. 
I don't know if you think we 

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live in a watch, my movie era 
anymore, but we live in an era 

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in which you got to talk to 
people directly. 

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And my assumption has shifted 
around his. 

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Like, I actually I know that 
most people listening to this 

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and most people in general, will
not, in fact, read my book. 

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I would love it and read my 
book, but they're not going to. 

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And I see the number people 
playing Candy Crush on the 

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airplane. 
Every time I got in the 

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airplane, I still a rough count,
right? 

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Like the book Market is a 
limited market, right? 

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And so I in the, in the kind of 
tradition of a lot of figures in

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American history, who I admired 
kind of spent much of the last 

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year, just going around and 
showing up in places, you know. 

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And, and having a conversation 
with people about number one, 

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the idea that there's a big 
majority in this country that 

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wants transformational reform, 
you've talked about that, some 

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of those people are on the right
by the way. 

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Way we may not agree on what 
transmission or frame is but 

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there's a majority for we had 
changed the hell out of things. 

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Number two, that as that has 
happened, some of the people 

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most responsible For creating 
the winner-take-all America, 

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that has led to that anger and 
that hunger for reform. 

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Have somehow Rich splain 
themselves into the leadership 

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of social change through 
philanthropy through. 

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You know, we're going to 
Google's going to reinvent the 

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future of cities on and off his 
rocker Berg's going to create 

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community and help kids on the 
border. 

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The people, some of the people 
most responsible and certainly 

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the class of people most 
responsible for virtually 

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everything, you've spent your 
career chronicling have Oculus 

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Lee reinvented themselves in the
last many years. 

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As the solution to the problems,
they are still busily causing, 

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right? 
And I've tried to just have that

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conversation over the last year 
and I've been amazed at. 

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It's a conversation that, you 
know, as I think you would 

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resonate with, I feel people 
almost on when I go to Michigan 

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and Ohio and places like that. 
I feel people get this faster 

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then people get it in San 
Francisco and New York. 

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Because this has been the stick 
with which they have been beaten

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for 30 or 40 years, right? 
Like, the person shutting down, 

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the Plant always told him. 
Let me know. 

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When said I'm gonna, I'm gonna 
try to screw you by shutting 

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down this plant, right? 
That's never the speech. 

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The speech is always, this is 
going to be great for you. 

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We're going to expand 
Partnerships with China, isn't 

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what they go to places like 
flint and said, we're going to, 

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we're going to get a deep in a 
partner, you know, trans Asian 

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partnership with China. 
And it's going to A win-win, you

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know, and three months later 
you're on food stamps. 

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I personally witnessed when they
said that in flank, this is many

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years ago. 
And I was there the night that 

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they were this assemblying, the 
assembly line at the Chevrolet 

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plan and packing it on two train
cars, it was going to be 

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literal. 
Assembly line was going to be 

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shipped to China. 
This is when China was just 

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beginning to have car assembly 
lines and they didn't Have the 

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wherewithal at that point. 
And so and so and everybody was 

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like, oh, this is actually going
to be good for us. 

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This will be good for us because
this will create a new economy. 

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This will create a different 
kind of job. 

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I wanted to do this 
back-breaking work on the 

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assembly line. 
They really pitched, it like 

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that and a lot of people did 
fall for it, as you said. 

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You know what's really 
interesting when you say that in

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so many eras? 
I mean, you and I both spent a 

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lot of time writing about 
inequality but inequality is an 

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old Story. 
And there's different takes 

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different forms, and different. 
Eras. 

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It's a different group of people
on top and maybe on the bottom 

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and different eras. 
And one of the things that you 

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find is common across history, 
is that the people on top always

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that? 
They never just stay on top by 

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pointing their guns, at people 
on the bottom, in some areas of 

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History, that's how they did it.
But that's not a very durable or

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sustainable way of staying on 
top building Gates. 

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You know, when you go to Brazil,
that's kind of how they do it. 

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Like the rich people, all live, 
by an eight Gates. 

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It's not a very nice way to live
Right? 

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None of them in Brazil. 
Put them my friend was telling 

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me they don't put their homes in
the GPS of their car like home 

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location because it's the 
easiest way for someone to steal

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the car. 
While you're at a restaurant 

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figure out where your home is, 
no, you're not there. 

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And Rob your home like to live 
in that anxieties on a fun way 

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to be a rich person. 
So what rich people tend to do 

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is to invent a story that 
justifies why, it ought to be 

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this way. 
This is not some Fallen 

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condition. 
It this is actually the best of 

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all world. 
And in feudal Britain, if you 

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watch a show like Downton Abbey,
there's a there's one story 

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about that, right? 
This kind of these are the 

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natural heirs to the to the kind
of Countryside in the land and 

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that the caregivers in the 
stewards and they're responsible

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for all of you and you just have
to do your little job but 

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they're responsible. 
That was the story of that time.

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And by the way, most people 
believe that story in that time 

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which is what's terrifying in 
most of these areas, everybody 

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believes the story, that's what 
makes the story powerful in the 

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Indian caste system. 
A lot of, it wasn't just the 

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brahmins who believed in the 
caste system, right? 

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As a lot of people at the bottom
who believed in the cast and 

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that's what's scary. 
And so I think it follows that 

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there must be such a story in 
our time that most people 

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believe that even people in the 
bottom believe. 

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And so I spent a lot of time in 
this book thinking about what is

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that story? 
What's the story about the 

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naturalness of inequality in our
time that people have been 

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forced to believe that a hundred
years from now school kids will 

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sit around thinking. 
Gosh, they believed that they 

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all Of that they will laugh at 
us. 

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And to me watching hearing your 
story of people thinking that 

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the dismantling of their 
assembly lines might benefiting 

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them the story that I found and 
wrote about in the book is the 

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story of the win-win. 
The win-win is the great story 

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of our time. 
The great fraud story of our 

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time and The Story Goes Like 
This. 

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Yes, there are people up above. 
And yes, there are some people 

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down below. 
And yes, I might even concede. 

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Says that the Divide is too 
broad. 

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Jamie dimon might say that today
other rich people might say that

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but the best way to do right by 
the people down below is to a 

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have the people on top lead, the
search for better Solutions. 

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To have them make money from 
solving those problems to profit

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from it. 
So it's a win-win, you're 

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empowering people in a way that 
kick something back to the 

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powerful. 
And this is why you have social 

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Enterprise becoming the biggest 
Club in all these business 

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goals. 
And this is why you have impact 

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investing where suddenly Goldman
Sachs is claiming that it's 

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going to be able to make money 
for itself and provide a social 

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return. 
This is why you got Tom's shoes 

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where they claim to be giving a 
second. 

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Pair of shoes to someone for 
every shoe they sell you and 

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I've traveled a lot in the 
developing World never seen 

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those shoes been giving out 
giving up. 

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But, you know, it's this is why 
you're asked to do two dollars 

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at Walgreens for this cause of 
that cause and the fantasy of 

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the win-win is that we can help 
the people who you spent your 

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career investigating and and 
chronicling. 

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We can help the people down 
below without interfering with 

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the people standing on their 
necks. 

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We can lift the people down 
below up. 

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Without disturbing the people 
standing on their next. 

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Now, this is fraudulent as a 
matter of physics as well, as of

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Sociology because, as you know, 
so well from your work, the 

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people who had those factories 
shut down on them that wasn't 

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done by Nature. 
That was done by other people. 

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The people who had the financial
crisis visited on them, where 

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the people who were sent into 
Wars where they died that we 

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shouldn't have fought in the 
first place. 

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The people down below were down 
below in whatever condition that

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may be whether it's being 
defrauded or being killed 

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because someone else made a 
choice and benefited from that 

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choice. 
And so I believe in have been 

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passionately arguing that the 
only way to get beyond our 

226
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winners. 
Take all America is to actually 

227
00:12:45,100 --> 00:12:48,600
get those people off those necks
and that is not a win-win. 

228
00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:50,400
I want to say it here, very 
loudly and code. 

229
00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,800
I am not in favor of a win-win 
on this issue. 

230
00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:57,600
The only answer to this One is 
to reduce the wealth and power 

231
00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,700
of the people on top who have 
pushed for a merciless economy, 

232
00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,900
for senseless Wars. 
And for a society, that is more 

233
00:13:05,900 --> 00:13:09,300
and more polarized because of 
their internet platforms, that 

234
00:13:09,300 --> 00:13:12,700
is more and more monopolistic 
and that has provided fewer and 

235
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fewer opportunities for regular 
Americans. 

236
00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:19,500
To make a decent living. 
Start a great business and take 

237
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care of a family. 
Wow, you know, if we no, you 

238
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:28,800
know, I know, I think a lot of 
people listening this know that 

239
00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:32,600
this isn't going to change, 
unless we remove the boot off 

240
00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,500
the neck of those who occupy the
lower rungs of the ladder. 

241
00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,700
The people who wear, those boots
aren't gonna be too happy to 

242
00:13:40,700 --> 00:13:44,100
hear what our plan is. 
And the fact that we are 

243
00:13:44,300 --> 00:13:47,600
actually vocal and open about 
what we intend to do. 

244
00:13:49,500 --> 00:13:52,100
That is not going to end, isn't 
it does not go down well with 

245
00:13:52,100 --> 00:13:53,200
them? 
I don't know if you know this or

246
00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:53,900
no. 
All right. 

247
00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,000
Advice for another part of mine 
last year. 

248
00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:02,700
Well, yes, you have this famous 
interaction with Jamie dimon 

249
00:14:03,500 --> 00:14:08,100
that was well, you you I was at 
this panel. 

250
00:14:08,100 --> 00:14:11,600
You use sort of told the behind 
the scenes of this you mind 

251
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:15,500
sharing that story so and 
explain who Jamie dimon has, you

252
00:14:15,500 --> 00:14:19,100
know so about once every week or
two weeks over the last year as 

253
00:14:19,100 --> 00:14:22,100
I've been out and visibly 
talking about these things, I 

254
00:14:22,100 --> 00:14:24,800
got a lot of lovely emails and 
messages all the time from some 

255
00:14:24,900 --> 00:14:27,700
regular people who say thank you
for seeing me. 

256
00:14:27,700 --> 00:14:32,300
Thank you for fighting for 
someone in my situation, which 

257
00:14:32,300 --> 00:14:35,000
is x y z. 
But every week or two, I get a 

258
00:14:35,008 --> 00:14:38,700
different kind of email, or 
message from a person at the 

259
00:14:38,708 --> 00:14:40,900
very, very top. 
These are people, I don't know 

260
00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,000
personally, sometimes they've 
read the book sometimes, they 

261
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,000
haven't, some of these emails 
are actually very thoughtful. 

262
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,600
Some of these emails, actually 
people have read the book, they 

263
00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:52,800
don't agree with 80% of it maybe
but they feel challenged enough 

264
00:14:53,100 --> 00:14:55,600
to say, hey I want to talk You 
know, and sometimes I talk to 

265
00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,500
them, sometimes I don't, I got 
one of the kind of less 

266
00:14:59,500 --> 00:15:02,500
impressive in the genre was 
Jamie dimon. 

267
00:15:02,900 --> 00:15:05,700
I don't, I don't know that Jamie
didn't strike me after we spoke 

268
00:15:05,700 --> 00:15:11,000
as the book reading kind, but he
did read a quote that I said in 

269
00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,200
the New York Times when he 
announced So Jamie dimon, the 

270
00:15:14,300 --> 00:15:18,100
CEO of JPMorgan Chase, biggest 
banks in the world and in 

271
00:15:18,100 --> 00:15:23,100
addition to that he runs an is a
chair of a big organization. 

272
00:15:23,100 --> 00:15:25,300
That's very important that most 
Listeners probably don't know 

273
00:15:25,300 --> 00:15:30,100
about called The Business 
Roundtable, which is a club of 

274
00:15:30,900 --> 00:15:34,500
the CEOs of 180, something of 
the biggest companies in 

275
00:15:34,500 --> 00:15:38,300
America, right? 
So this is like the CEOs of this

276
00:15:38,300 --> 00:15:41,600
is the CEO of the CEOs, right? 
Answer, real Club. 

277
00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:44,700
It's a real Club. 
Yeah, notnot Hair Club for Men 

278
00:15:44,700 --> 00:15:47,500
but yes. 
Generally and to the except they

279
00:15:47,500 --> 00:15:50,900
need to speak in a single voice.
They do on something. 

280
00:15:51,100 --> 00:15:56,800
This is the organization that 
speaks As big Corporate America.

281
00:15:56,900 --> 00:16:00,900
So, if Wall Street had a 
Vatican, yes, this would sort of

282
00:16:00,900 --> 00:16:03,300
be except it's not only Wall 
Street, it's Wall Street, and 

283
00:16:03,300 --> 00:16:05,800
the defense companies, and the 
tech companies. 

284
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,400
So, when we talk about 
plutocracy or big business or 

285
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,100
whatever, like this is the 
address. 

286
00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:12,200
If you want to, you know, the 
Henry Kissinger question. 

287
00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,500
Like, if I want to call Big 
Business, who do I call you 

288
00:16:14,500 --> 00:16:17,600
called The Business Roundtable 
and Jamie dimon chair. 

289
00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:24,100
So the Business Roundtable in 
August made, what some people 

290
00:16:24,100 --> 00:16:26,300
thought was a historic 
statement, The Business 

291
00:16:26,300 --> 00:16:31,200
Roundtable until now for 
Generation has has advocated a 

292
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,600
view that the purpose of a 
corporation is to make money for

293
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,800
shareholders and as you know, so
well from your work it is that 

294
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,000
singular view. 
You could trace so much of the 

295
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:47,500
devastation that you have 
chronicled to that single idea. 

296
00:16:47,500 --> 00:16:50,000
Yes, is leave. 
Told me over the years, we have 

297
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:56,100
a legal and fiduciary 
responsibility to return as much

298
00:16:56,100 --> 00:16:59,900
profit as legally possible to 
our shareholders, correct. 

299
00:17:00,500 --> 00:17:03,200
Everything else be damned. 
And so, you know, any CEO could 

300
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:06,000
go watch a Michael Moore film 
and be like totally with the guy

301
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,800
but I just my hands are tied. 
My hands are tied. 

302
00:17:10,099 --> 00:17:12,900
The purpose of a company is to 
just crank the money and the 

303
00:17:12,900 --> 00:17:15,700
Business Roundtable says so. 
And that's the law. 

304
00:17:16,300 --> 00:17:21,599
So in August, They put out a 
statement building on a lot of 

305
00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:23,099
pressure that's been in the 
society. 

306
00:17:23,099 --> 00:17:25,400
And frankly, this populist 
moment we're in and the Bernie 

307
00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,500
Warren moment which we can talk 
about and they put out a 

308
00:17:28,500 --> 00:17:33,200
statement saying, mayakoba, we 
were wrong that turns out not to

309
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,200
be the only purpose. 
They basically realize what, 

310
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,000
every five year old understands,
which is that like, there are 

311
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,400
other people in life and you 
have to take account of them and

312
00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,400
they put out a statement saying 
the purpose of a business is 

313
00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:46,300
actually to take care of a bunch
of stakeholders. 

314
00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:48,100
Shareholders are one 
stakeholder. 

315
00:17:48,300 --> 00:17:51,200
Labour's another. 
The country is another, you 

316
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,200
know, there's various 
stakeholders and you got to kind

317
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,500
of balance among them. 
So you know, for a lot of 

318
00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:57,500
business people out there 
although this is a very obvious 

319
00:17:57,500 --> 00:17:59,400
thing. 
This was like a really big deep 

320
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:04,700
thought that they felt they had 
great and it was reported to us 

321
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:10,000
the masses by our media. 
Our liberal media papers like 

322
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,300
the New York Times. 
This was written about yes in 

323
00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:16,700
such a it literally was if I 
started to go back to the 

324
00:18:16,700 --> 00:18:20,900
Vatican reference but It was 
like Jesus had come down yes. 

325
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,600
To hand out all the Loaves and 
Fishes to everybody so that 

326
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:25,500
everyone would eat. 
Yeah. 

327
00:18:25,500 --> 00:18:27,200
Everybody would have a seat at 
the table. 

328
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:31,600
Everybody would be taken care of
now because they had determined 

329
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,500
that it was wrong to be greedy. 
Yes. 

330
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,100
And we were no longer going to 
think just about ourselves or 

331
00:18:37,100 --> 00:18:39,300
our shareholders. 
We were going to think about 

332
00:18:39,300 --> 00:18:41,500
you. 
You whoever you are wherever you

333
00:18:41,500 --> 00:18:45,500
live, we're on your side and 
it's almost worse than I wasn't 

334
00:18:45,500 --> 00:18:48,700
even questioned what it was 
really like was a I make an 

335
00:18:48,700 --> 00:18:54,300
announcement on January 1st 2020
Anand will not eat french fries 

336
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:57,600
in 2020. 
The way to report that is to say

337
00:18:58,100 --> 00:19:00,500
on and in and if I've eaten 
french fries like every year 

338
00:19:00,500 --> 00:19:05,800
until then the way to report 
that story is despite years of 

339
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:11,100
eating french fries on and has 
made a the sun verifiable claim 

340
00:19:11,900 --> 00:19:14,800
that he will not eat french 
fries in the year to come at the

341
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,100
present moment. 
There is no way to independently

342
00:19:17,100 --> 00:19:21,500
verify this and history suggests
that it's unlikely, okay? 

343
00:19:21,500 --> 00:19:24,400
That's the way to report that 
the wrong way to report in the 

344
00:19:24,408 --> 00:19:26,900
last line for the anchor who's 
who just said what you said. 

345
00:19:26,900 --> 00:19:29,300
Yeah, before they go to 
commercial break. 

346
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,700
Well, we shall see. 
Exactly. 

347
00:19:32,900 --> 00:19:34,800
That's the way to report that in
mocking you. 

348
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:39,500
And essentially, the essentially
what I just did with fries, they

349
00:19:39,500 --> 00:19:42,600
did with rapacious profiteering.
Except the way it was reported 

350
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:47,100
by a lot of folks was big, 
business has turned a corner. 

351
00:19:47,900 --> 00:19:51,900
And will no longer be 
rapaciously profiteering, they 

352
00:19:51,900 --> 00:19:54,700
wrote the end of 2020 story. 
When all that had happened was 

353
00:19:54,700 --> 00:19:57,500
the Pledge. 
So I was included and there 

354
00:19:57,500 --> 00:20:01,600
however their gesture from any 
of these Outlet their gesture to

355
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,300
skepticism was having an unquote
in the story. 

356
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,500
So I was the kicker quote in the
New York Times a role that I'm 

357
00:20:08,500 --> 00:20:12,400
happy to play having written 
many kickers in my lifetime and 

358
00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:16,500
the kicker quote was basically 
pledges of voluntary virtue 

359
00:20:17,500 --> 00:20:21,800
Aren't going to fix this, right?
Jamie dimon must have read that 

360
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:23,200
story. 
And there's an accompanying 

361
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:27,300
story in Fortune, which I also 
played a similar gadfly roll. 

362
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,100
Somebody read it for him and 
gave him the right summary of 

363
00:20:30,100 --> 00:20:30,800
it, right? 
Exactly. 

364
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,600
As to be clerk, admit picture 
PowerPoint PowerPoint about an 

365
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,100
article is probably what he gets
and he emails me. 

366
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,600
So, give me a call when you have
a moment to discuss. 

367
00:20:41,100 --> 00:20:43,600
Never never met this guy, my 
life, you know. 

368
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,200
But he did, you know, he has, he
has committed. 

369
00:20:47,300 --> 00:20:49,900
Various, you know, his bank has 
committed, various forms of 

370
00:20:49,900 --> 00:20:52,600
fraud on an epic scale, so while
he didn't have my respect, he 

371
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:56,800
had my attention, right? 
And so I called him while I was 

372
00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,300
on vacation and I actually was 
like, you know, I'm on vacation.

373
00:20:59,900 --> 00:21:04,500
You may be on vacation, but I 
appreciate the reaching out to 

374
00:21:04,500 --> 00:21:07,800
have a dialogue. 
I believe in dialogue, I'll send

375
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,800
you my book, he made clear. 
Very he's like, you know, and 

376
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:12,700
opening moment. 
He's like, you know, I've read 

377
00:21:12,700 --> 00:21:15,000
your book but, uh, but yeah, I 
heard about it. 

378
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,700
So, yeah, it's good. 
So, you know, And okay, hearing 

379
00:21:18,700 --> 00:21:21,400
about a book is the new reading.
It sounds like, how about this? 

380
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,500
I'll send you the book, Let's 
when both in New York, in a 

381
00:21:24,508 --> 00:21:27,000
couple of weeks after our 
vacations, after you've actually

382
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,500
read, what I'm? 
Where I'm coming from, let's 

383
00:21:29,500 --> 00:21:33,900
have a dialogue and he was like,
no, no, that won't be necessary.

384
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:35,600
Let's just talk now and well, 
you know. 

385
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,800
Well, well well, well we'll see 
if it makes sense to ever 

386
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,600
further car to get on the phone 
then, or I was on the, yeah, 

387
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:43,100
that was on the phone. 
All right, is on the phone. 

388
00:21:43,100 --> 00:21:44,700
So then we just talk for half an
hour. 

389
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:46,900
Hmm. 
Because I thought you know what?

390
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,900
Further exposure to my ideas is 
not going to increase the odds 

391
00:21:50,900 --> 00:21:54,600
of a conversation. 
Meanwhile, you know, a 

392
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:56,100
journalist friend of mine is 
texting me. 

393
00:21:56,100 --> 00:21:58,700
Come telling, what's happening 
is like, remember you're a 

394
00:21:58,708 --> 00:22:01,700
journalist unless he says it's 
off the Record, it's not off the

395
00:22:01,700 --> 00:22:04,800
Record which is a useful, you 
know, useful thing to remember. 

396
00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:09,100
And we had a half an hour 
conversation that was by turns 

397
00:22:09,100 --> 00:22:16,600
revelatory and maddening 
maddening because It just felt 

398
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:22,600
like this was a guy who thought 
he was calling to acquire ideas 

399
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,700
or perspective. 
He didn't yet have but who is 

400
00:22:25,700 --> 00:22:28,600
almost constitutionally 
incapable of absorbing 

401
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:32,700
information outside. 
His corporate libertarian, 

402
00:22:32,900 --> 00:22:35,600
Banker framework. 
There was there were just no 

403
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,100
cracks, right? 
The Leonard Cohen line that 

404
00:22:38,100 --> 00:22:41,000
there were no cracks for the 
light to get in in this guy. 

405
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,300
And so, just a couple of the 
exchanges that, you know, so So 

406
00:22:45,300 --> 00:22:48,800
he says at some point you know I
treat all my workers well and 

407
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,300
I'm not sure why they're making 
all this fuss about regulation. 

408
00:22:51,300 --> 00:22:54,000
And I said, okay, let's 
stipulate which I may not agree 

409
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:55,600
with that. 
You treat all your workers. 

410
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,600
Well, at JPMorgan Chase. 
There's a bunch of companies in 

411
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:04,100
this group and we know many of 
them from well reported public 

412
00:23:04,100 --> 00:23:06,200
reporting. 
Like we know many of them do not

413
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,200
treat workers. 
Well, you can't deny that. 

414
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:15,100
So how do you reckon with the 
fact that you got these CEOs of 

415
00:23:15,100 --> 00:23:17,200
sign this pledge this week, 
saying they're going to treat 

416
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:22,100
everybody well but We know how 
they're training them now and he

417
00:23:22,100 --> 00:23:25,500
says to me, you know, and I know
a lot of those CEOs. 

418
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,300
They're good, guys. 
They I know them, they would 

419
00:23:29,300 --> 00:23:35,200
never treat workers badly, I 
mean, I don't know how how 

420
00:23:35,500 --> 00:23:39,600
unthoughtful you have to be to 
say that but what came next was 

421
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,500
what was really surprising. 
And he says, you know, a lot of 

422
00:23:42,500 --> 00:23:47,300
people just don't like to work. 
Wow, I took my breath away. 

423
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:54,000
This is a man who is the keeper.
Of the hard-earned deposits. 

424
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:59,000
Of millions and millions of 
people who are hanging by 

425
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:04,700
fingernails to dignity. 
He is holding their money. 

426
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:10,300
He's holding their mortgages. 
and the fact that he thinks so 

427
00:24:10,300 --> 00:24:14,100
little of many of them that 
issues of worker exploitation or

428
00:24:14,100 --> 00:24:17,400
wage theft or underpayment that 
are so rampant in this country, 

429
00:24:18,700 --> 00:24:22,000
May, in many cases, just be 
issues of people being lazy. 

430
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:28,100
And it the conversation led me 
to this place where it really 

431
00:24:28,100 --> 00:24:31,400
helped me understand something. 
Which is I think you are. 

432
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:37,300
I would sit around and and, and 
easily malign, the Koch, 

433
00:24:37,300 --> 00:24:40,000
brothers, the Dead one, or the 
alive. 

434
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,900
One, whichever one you like more
and that's an easy one. 

435
00:24:45,100 --> 00:24:49,600
I think what the conversation 
helped me understand was that I 

436
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:54,000
think someone like Jamie dimon 
genuinely believes that he is 

437
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,800
not a slightly handsomer. 
Third Koch brother. 

438
00:24:58,500 --> 00:25:02,300
I think Mark Zuckerberg 
genuinely believes that he's not

439
00:25:02,900 --> 00:25:06,700
the fourth liberal Koch brother,
right? 

440
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,400
He's not one of the bad guys in 
his head in his. 

441
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,200
I'm sure it Mark Zuckerberg 
thinks he's not a Coke brother. 

442
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:13,800
Hmm. 
I'm sure if you called him right

443
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:15,400
now and said do you think you're
a Coke brother? 

444
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,600
He would say I think I am 
meaningfully different from a 

445
00:25:18,608 --> 00:25:20,700
Coke brother. 
I think if you put a lie 

446
00:25:20,700 --> 00:25:23,500
detector on him he would pass 
that if you ask them that 

447
00:25:23,500 --> 00:25:24,200
question. 
Yes. 

448
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,600
And if he eats I'm nothing like 
the Koch brother, nothing like 

449
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,200
them, it would show true. 
True, true. 

450
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:30,900
True. 
Well, the only things you might 

451
00:25:30,900 --> 00:25:34,900
be honest about and yet what 
that conversation revealed to 

452
00:25:34,900 --> 00:25:38,300
me, is that a lot of the people 
who we think of, as kind of, 

453
00:25:38,300 --> 00:25:43,900
like, Democratic plutocrats are 
in some ways, more dangerous 

454
00:25:43,900 --> 00:25:46,700
versions of the Koch brothers, 
because they are the Koch 

455
00:25:46,700 --> 00:25:50,700
brothers in costume, right? 
They are the wolves in sheep's 

456
00:25:50,700 --> 00:25:56,300
clothing, proverbially and it 
really helped me understand that

457
00:25:56,300 --> 00:25:58,100
we're not going to be able to 
count on the whoa. 

458
00:25:58,300 --> 00:26:04,800
Woke liberal do-gooder 
billionaires to save us from 

459
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,400
billionaire capture. 
All right, I have a not a 

460
00:26:07,408 --> 00:26:12,600
similar encounter but this story
really resonates with me. 

461
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:21,500
I I ran into Lloyd blankfein who
until recently was the CEO of 

462
00:26:21,500 --> 00:26:22,900
Goldman Sachs. 
Yeah. 

463
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:30,200
And now a DJ is in charge Yes, 
we'll get into that later. 

464
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:35,300
The I was at an event at the 
Oscars. 

465
00:26:35,300 --> 00:26:38,900
I was on the board of the 
academy and so there is this 

466
00:26:38,900 --> 00:26:45,900
event and he walks into the 
event with Harvey Weinstein, 

467
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,600
just not to not to not de la Mi 
onto this story. 

468
00:26:50,700 --> 00:26:52,500
Any more than what you're about 
to hear. 

469
00:26:53,100 --> 00:26:55,900
He sees me, he walks out with 
one scene after the Weinstein 

470
00:26:55,900 --> 00:26:57,800
Revelations. 
No saw before, okay? 

471
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,600
For and he sees me and he comes 
up to me. 

472
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,300
And he said, I don't like what 
what you said about Goldman 

473
00:27:04,300 --> 00:27:07,800
Sachs in your movie. 
First of all, I'm like, wow, you

474
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,100
actually watch my movie. 
The movie is referring to is, 

475
00:27:10,100 --> 00:27:14,900
capitalism a love story titled, 
probably fooled him into the 

476
00:27:14,900 --> 00:27:15,800
theater. 
Yes. 

477
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,300
Well yes, I was. 
He thought you were finally at 

478
00:27:19,300 --> 00:27:23,500
toning Michael? 
Yes, I was told very early on 

479
00:27:23,700 --> 00:27:27,700
with my first movie. 
I was warned actually that I 

480
00:27:27,700 --> 00:27:31,500
need to Ember that 50 percent of
Americans don't get irony. 

481
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,000
If you make the ironic statement
they will think you're that's 

482
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,700
how you actually feel. 
So, yes. 

483
00:27:37,700 --> 00:27:40,400
So it is not a love story, by 
the way, capitalism. 

484
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,200
It's a story of mass destruction
and tragedy. 

485
00:27:44,700 --> 00:27:46,200
You will get a refund on your 
tickets. 

486
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,000
Yes. 
If he did, usually think it was 

487
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,000
actually, if you did. 
If you are out there and you're 

488
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,100
listening to this and you want 
to capitalism a love story, 

489
00:27:52,100 --> 00:27:54,600
thinking it was going to be a 
love story, you took a date and 

490
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,200
that ended up being the last 
date. 

491
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,900
I will refund that too. 
Kit for you. 

492
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,100
He comes up to me. 
He says I don't know why you 

493
00:28:01,100 --> 00:28:06,100
attack Goldman Sachs. 
You know where Democrats Sesame.

494
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,300
Wow he said. 
Now a lot of firms on Wall 

495
00:28:08,300 --> 00:28:11,100
Street aren't. 
But we're Democrats at Goldman 

496
00:28:11,100 --> 00:28:16,600
Sachs and and I said well well 
actually I know that Goldman 

497
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:21,600
Sachs was the largest private 
contributor to Barack Obama's 

498
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,800
first campaign for president. 
Yes, that's right. 

499
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,000
You know we helped to bring 
about Obama and I said, well, 

500
00:28:29,500 --> 00:28:31,700
you know, if you want to have 
this conversation, now I can 

501
00:28:31,700 --> 00:28:34,100
tell you why. 
First of all, you can call 

502
00:28:34,100 --> 00:28:37,600
yourself a Democrat all you 
want, but if you, if you are 

503
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:44,300
calling up the what people in my
family, grew up with is Union. 

504
00:28:44,300 --> 00:28:48,600
People as people whose my 
father's first vote was for 

505
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,700
Franklin. 
Roosevelt or if that's the 

506
00:28:50,700 --> 00:28:53,300
Democratic party. 
You think you're aspiring to 

507
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,300
your actions. 
Don't show any of this. 

508
00:28:57,100 --> 00:29:01,700
And he said, well is it enough 
that we mean the good that we do

509
00:29:01,700 --> 00:29:03,900
the money that we give to the 
candidates that you mister more 

510
00:29:03,900 --> 00:29:07,300
support. 
I said I want to live in a 

511
00:29:07,300 --> 00:29:10,500
system where you're not giving 
any money and they're not taking

512
00:29:10,500 --> 00:29:14,100
any money from you. 
And it's what I'm not like this.

513
00:29:14,100 --> 00:29:17,900
And then finally he says I want 
to give you a Rorschach test I 

514
00:29:17,900 --> 00:29:19,500
said I'm huh? 
Sure. 

515
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,400
You know. 
I don't like that for a second. 

516
00:29:21,700 --> 00:29:26,200
Try to remember what that was 
and I actually did. 

517
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,000
Like, is that some painting you?
Oh no, no no. 

518
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,400
I want to I did go to a year of 
college at the Flint branch of 

519
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,700
the University of Michigan. 
So I did take a look, you took 

520
00:29:33,700 --> 00:29:36,600
classes in the Rorschach drawing
Center took a while 101 and 

521
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,600
psychology article, 101 and 
philosophy. 

522
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:43,600
You know, I have enough before I
dropped out, so he said he said,

523
00:29:44,100 --> 00:29:47,400
Bill Gates his Tombstone. 
What does it say? 

524
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,900
On his Tombstone, Bill Gates, 
Bill Gates, the, the founder of 

525
00:29:51,900 --> 00:29:57,600
Microsoft or Bill Gates, the man
who eradicated malaria on the 

526
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,500
planet Earth. 
What, what's going to be that? 

527
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:06,000
That one line, if he gets one 
line on the tombstone and I said

528
00:30:06,500 --> 00:30:11,200
both except will be an and it'll
just be one sentence. 

529
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,500
It was no, you can't say that. 
You have to pick one and I. 

530
00:30:14,508 --> 00:30:16,700
So yeah, I think your point 
you're getting to, is it? 

531
00:30:16,700 --> 00:30:18,800
You're talking to me? 
Thing I'm going to say malaria. 

532
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,300
Of course this is a great thing 
that he did. 

533
00:30:21,500 --> 00:30:26,600
But you know, all of our lives 
are going to be judged whether 

534
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,000
we judge them ourselves or 
others will judge us on the 

535
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,200
balance between the good and the
evil that we do. 

536
00:30:33,700 --> 00:30:37,000
And I hope that all of us are 
going to end up on the good side

537
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:41,600
and more having done more good 
things than bad things and he 

538
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,900
said, yeah, I knew you wouldn't.
I knew you wouldn't answer this,

539
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,400
the answer. 
Correct answer is Bill Gates 

540
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,100
founder of Microsoft. 
Because I could prove to you 

541
00:30:52,100 --> 00:30:54,800
that that's saved more lives 
than the work he's done with 

542
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,700
malaria. 
I said, wow, you really believe 

543
00:30:57,700 --> 00:31:01,200
this, don't you? 
Wow, you turns out Lloyd, 

544
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,900
blankfein is a lot like the 
character Lloyd, blankfein. 

545
00:31:05,900 --> 00:31:08,900
Yes. 
And this was at you as this we 

546
00:31:08,900 --> 00:31:10,200
were in public, I mean, we're in
public. 

547
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,100
It was like, whoa, you know, you
are now. 

548
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,400
But well, that's true. 
Well, yes, like you said about a

549
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,800
I mean nobody should talk to me 
unless you know, I am not here 

550
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,200
to be the keeper of your secrets
especially if you're the head of

551
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:30,100
Goldman Sachs and it was just 
but it was such an amazing 

552
00:31:30,100 --> 00:31:33,800
moment of that is he he said it 
with such Force. 

553
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:39,100
Yes, his belief in it was so 
strong and the belief that he is

554
00:31:39,100 --> 00:31:45,000
a Democrat is doing good. 
Their only hope for this ruse to

555
00:31:45,008 --> 00:31:49,200
be successful is if we We fall 
for it, you know. 

556
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,600
And what's really is, this this 
takes it to a slightly dark 

557
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,000
place but I think it's worth 
going there for a second because

558
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,000
one of the comments that people,
you know, when you write a book,

559
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,800
people come to you with, as they
rated the meaning they make out 

560
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,700
of it, that may be beyond your 
own contemplation and one of the

561
00:32:05,700 --> 00:32:09,700
persistent things that I've 
heard from people very moving, 

562
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,000
is that people who spend a lot 
of their lives in different 

563
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,900
types of abusive relationships, 
have said, to me, You know 

564
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,900
whether parental or spousal or 
whatever else that the Dynamics 

565
00:32:21,900 --> 00:32:26,600
that I'm describing about 
plutocrats and regular people. 

566
00:32:27,300 --> 00:32:31,800
Very much mirror, a lot of the 
you know, on a grand scale, 

567
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,100
large numbers scale. 
The abusive Dynamics within 

568
00:32:35,100 --> 00:32:38,200
households within families. 
And when I hear Lloyd, blankfein

569
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:45,200
sing to you, I can't be hurting 
People because I'm on the team 

570
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,800
with them. 
That's there's an abusive like 

571
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:52,500
almost domestic kind of vibe 
there of like I'm in your, I 

572
00:32:52,500 --> 00:32:55,100
can't be hurting you I'm in your
family, right? 

573
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,100
Why would I abuse her? 
She's my wife. 

574
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,800
And what we all understand from 
that situation in the abuse 

575
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,500
context is it is precisely the 
proximity that gives you the 

576
00:33:05,500 --> 00:33:11,000
Alibi to keep doing it. 
And so, the reason why blank 

577
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,000
fine is dangerous is precisely 
because he's a Democrat. 

578
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:22,300
I think people see the Kansas 
chemical industry magnates from 

579
00:33:22,300 --> 00:33:25,400
100 miles away. 
We're not defenseless, we're 

580
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,600
not, we're not totally, you 
know, impervious to their to 

581
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:33,400
their you know, pretensions but 
I think we see them for who they

582
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:39,600
are and we understand that they 
are strangers to us coming to 

583
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:44,000
try to pillage. 
Hmm, it's the Democrats that 

584
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:48,200
have this Stick relationship to 
us the Zuckerberg, the blank 

585
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:54,800
finds the probably presumably 
Jeff Bezos others, who are 

586
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,600
people, who believe that things,
that many of us believe they're 

587
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,800
for gay rights there. 
They don't like these kids being

588
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,100
locked up on the border. 
There awoke they use the right 

589
00:34:05,100 --> 00:34:08,900
terms for transgender people. 
There on the right side of what 

590
00:34:08,900 --> 00:34:11,900
feels like The Winds of Change 
they don't you know they're not 

591
00:34:12,100 --> 00:34:13,900
white nationalists. 
No. 

592
00:34:13,900 --> 00:34:17,400
In fact, T'. 
He puts as the slogan on the 

593
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:23,100
front page of his newspaper 
everyday, democracy dies in 

594
00:34:23,100 --> 00:34:27,300
darkness and I think all of that
is genuine but what it does and 

595
00:34:27,300 --> 00:34:31,000
this is sort of my point, is 
that what it does is it gives 

596
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,500
them an opportunity to do a 
second thing. 

597
00:34:33,500 --> 00:34:39,500
Also, which is to justify and 
entrench a system, a set of 

598
00:34:39,500 --> 00:34:43,199
economic political social 
Arrangements that continues to 

599
00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:46,699
generate our social problems. 
On a scale must vaster much 

600
00:34:46,699 --> 00:34:50,500
faster than than any of these 
fixes that they're engaged in, 

601
00:34:51,300 --> 00:34:55,000
it would have been actually 
where you're saying is that I'd 

602
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,400
be more relieved. 
If blind finally, just said he 

603
00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:58,900
was a republican. 
Yes. 

604
00:34:59,700 --> 00:35:01,900
Then we regulate him a lot 
better, then we can, yeah, we 

605
00:35:01,900 --> 00:35:04,300
can deal with that, but if he 
comes off as a Democrat funds, 

606
00:35:04,300 --> 00:35:07,800
the Democrats and has his 
Democratic candidates in his 

607
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,700
stable. 
That's that's a far more 

608
00:35:10,700 --> 00:35:12,900
dangerous thing. 
As it's in the same way that 

609
00:35:12,900 --> 00:35:15,500
people say, oh my God what if we
get rid of prompt? 

610
00:35:15,500 --> 00:35:21,200
Whoa will have pounced and I'm 
going good good because now it's

611
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:25,500
out it's we can deal with Pence.
Yes because Pence is very honest

612
00:35:25,700 --> 00:35:29,600
about his belief that the Earth 
is only 6,000 years old and Adam

613
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:36,500
and Eve wrote on dinosaurs that 
gay people can be converted into

614
00:35:36,500 --> 00:35:39,000
heterosexuality every point, 
that pain. 

615
00:35:39,100 --> 00:35:41,500
It's brings up. 
Let's have the great debate. 

616
00:35:41,500 --> 00:35:43,300
We will win the debate with the 
American people. 

617
00:35:43,300 --> 00:35:46,600
The American people will side 
with us on the side effects 

618
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,800
science and human decency. 
And he, and he mr. 

619
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,400
Pence will be defeated, don't be
afraid of that. 

620
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,000
Yeah. 
Be afraid of the one who comes 

621
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:01,800
the first time I met Donald 
Trump after my first film and 

622
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:06,700
came to move to New York, he was
either the co-host or he was 

623
00:36:06,700 --> 00:36:12,200
attending a benefit. 
For Planned Parenthood in New 

624
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:16,100
York City or one of the one of 
the you know, women's 

625
00:36:16,100 --> 00:36:19,800
reproductive rights groups or 
whatever the irony of it. 

626
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:25,700
Again is is so listen this this 
issue that you're discussing the

627
00:36:25,700 --> 00:36:30,200
the way that the rich try to 
pass themselves off as one of 

628
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,100
us. 
You know, some of the great 

629
00:36:33,100 --> 00:36:37,400
science fiction, great horror 
films of all time including the 

630
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:43,300
one from this past year us. 
The Jordan Peele film is, is 

631
00:36:43,300 --> 00:36:49,100
when the alien the enemy 
whatever is able to take our 

632
00:36:49,100 --> 00:36:53,200
shape and form and talk like us.
That's when it's most dangerous,

633
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,700
because we don't know who the 
real humans are. 

634
00:36:56,700 --> 00:37:02,000
And who the other ones who are 
gonna kill us our, and And so, 

635
00:37:02,300 --> 00:37:05,600
so the successful Rich who 
figured out how to do that and 

636
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,600
you can you can go down Broadway
are just a few blocks from here 

637
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:15,100
every day when I walk by it. 
There in Lincoln Center is the 

638
00:37:15,100 --> 00:37:18,900
David Koch. 
New York City Ballet. 

639
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:20,700
Dance theater. 
Yep. 

640
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,100
And Lincoln Center made a 
decision to take money from him 

641
00:37:25,100 --> 00:37:28,300
obviously so he could have his 
name on that building. 

642
00:37:29,500 --> 00:37:32,500
And in his mind, the more that 
he can do. 

643
00:37:32,500 --> 00:37:36,800
If things like that, people will
be a little less anxious to go 

644
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,300
after him. 
I hear this about Bloomberg. 

645
00:37:39,300 --> 00:37:41,700
Now people say well Mike you 
know you met Bowling for 

646
00:37:41,700 --> 00:37:46,000
Columbine audience's, he's been 
so good on guns, he's funded all

647
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:52,100
these mom's groups and he's 
anti-gun groups Mike he's you 

648
00:37:52,100 --> 00:37:56,700
know he gets climate change. 
You down the hall are two lists 

649
00:37:56,700 --> 00:38:00,800
of this whole thing and I'm 
like, okay, number one, please 

650
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,900
understand that he's doing many 
of these things. 

651
00:38:04,900 --> 00:38:09,900
As the cover, at the end of this
movie, we call human life on 

652
00:38:09,900 --> 00:38:12,700
planet Earth. 
He and others, like him will 

653
00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:17,700
pull up that rubbery thing off 
their face and reveal themselves

654
00:38:17,700 --> 00:38:23,100
as the people who benefited by 
making our species go extinct. 

655
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,200
Even though They themselves were
posing and were one of us. 

656
00:38:29,300 --> 00:38:32,900
The short-term gain and pleasure
was far greater than anything. 

657
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,000
Totally. 
And you have to and we need to 

658
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,800
talk about Bloomberg for a 
second because as with your 

659
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,500
Gates example, when I have gone 
around talking about the book 

660
00:38:41,500 --> 00:38:45,500
and talking about the problem 
with different billionaires are 

661
00:38:45,508 --> 00:38:49,000
with the billionaire class in 
general, the pushback you get is

662
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,100
sort of the pushback when you 
talk about white supremacy and 

663
00:38:51,107 --> 00:38:54,100
then someone brings up the fact 
that they know like one white 

664
00:38:54,100 --> 00:38:56,300
guy who's not racist and that's 
the rebuttal writes. 

665
00:38:56,300 --> 00:39:00,200
The not all white people, not 
all Billionaires right argument 

666
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,100
and the two of the kind of trump
cards in the not all 

667
00:39:04,100 --> 00:39:06,800
billionaires argument are Bill 
Gates, and Michael Bloomberg. 

668
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:08,500
Right. 
Because they're for climate, 

669
00:39:08,500 --> 00:39:11,400
therefore, this other stuff. 
So let's talk about Bloomberg 

670
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,200
for a second. 
First of all, how did he make 

671
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:18,900
his money? 
Now, it's not opioids, it's not 

672
00:39:19,500 --> 00:39:25,000
making money by killing people 
granted, but he sold those 

673
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,500
terminals to the financial 
industry. 

674
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,600
During the Great 
financialization of American 

675
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:33,100
life of the last 40 years, 
right? 

676
00:39:33,100 --> 00:39:38,000
So he wasn't the banker himself,
but he was a very important like

677
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:42,000
informational lubricant in this 
engine of financialization. 

678
00:39:42,500 --> 00:39:46,100
That is behind once again, like 
everything you've gone after and

679
00:39:46,100 --> 00:39:49,700
your movies that engine of 
financialization is why the car 

680
00:39:49,700 --> 00:39:51,200
industry turned out the way it 
did. 

681
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,700
It's why the gun and private 
prison world ended up the way it

682
00:39:55,700 --> 00:39:58,400
did. 
It's why climate change is Now, 

683
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,300
where it is. 
It's why senseless Wars have 

684
00:40:00,300 --> 00:40:03,000
been fought all of those behind.
All of those things. 

685
00:40:03,100 --> 00:40:05,300
Is the rapacious profiteering. 
We talked about. 

686
00:40:05,300 --> 00:40:08,700
Now behind all of those things 
is the growing power of 

687
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:12,500
financial institutions relative 
to us as people but also 

688
00:40:12,500 --> 00:40:15,000
relative even to the management 
of companies, right? 

689
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,900
The investors over the last 30, 
40 years became more important 

690
00:40:17,900 --> 00:40:19,700
than the companies. 
They were investing in in their 

691
00:40:19,700 --> 00:40:22,400
ability to dictate terms and 
drive these companies in the 

692
00:40:22,408 --> 00:40:26,400
directions they wanted and force
them to do to grow more and do 

693
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,000
more. 
So Michael Bloomberg. 

694
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,600
Burg without being a guy who 
pushed for those things to 

695
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:38,500
happen, made his fortune. 
By selling motor oil to people 

696
00:40:38,500 --> 00:40:42,600
who were stealing the future 
from America and its really, 

697
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:44,200
really important to say that and
understand that. 

698
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,300
I don't see anybody out there 
talking about that. 

699
00:40:47,300 --> 00:40:50,800
That fortune is skimming a 
little bit off. 

700
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,500
The top of the spoils of 
financialization was one of the 

701
00:40:54,500 --> 00:40:58,200
worst things to happen to this 
country in the last 50 years, 

702
00:40:58,500 --> 00:40:59,800
right? 
That's the money that we're 

703
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:01,300
talking about when we talk about
Michael Bloomberg. 

704
00:41:01,300 --> 00:41:05,500
Number one, number two, what he 
has done philanthropic lie, Yes,

705
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,000
it's it's causes that you and I 
might agree with. 

706
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:09,500
I agree with him on the guns 
issue. 

707
00:41:09,500 --> 00:41:14,900
I agree with him on climate but 
there has been evidence that 

708
00:41:14,900 --> 00:41:18,000
I've seen his story from 2008. 
And then again he's doing it 

709
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,700
this time where he has used his 
philanthropy and the 

710
00:41:21,700 --> 00:41:26,200
organization's he gives money to
Arts institutions, other 

711
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:30,700
institutions and in 2008 was 
found through interviews by the 

712
00:41:30,700 --> 00:41:34,100
New York Times by Michael 
barbaro's. 

713
00:41:34,100 --> 00:41:37,200
Now the Great host of The Daily 
was reporter, at the time. 

714
00:41:37,500 --> 00:41:39,700
Found that a lot of these 
institutions of Bloomberg, a 

715
00:41:39,700 --> 00:41:42,300
given philanthropic money to had
been pressured. 

716
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,900
To advocate for him, getting a 
third term as mayor of New York 

717
00:41:46,900 --> 00:41:51,000
City. 
Wow, I think about that to my 

718
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,600
mind that should be illegal, 
right philanthropy. 

719
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,900
A lot of things that are legal. 
When done through the 

720
00:41:56,900 --> 00:41:59,300
philanthropic route that I 
actually don't even think, would

721
00:41:59,300 --> 00:42:02,300
be legal if done as a business, 
right? 

722
00:42:02,300 --> 00:42:05,500
You, you're giving money to 
Civic organizations in New York 

723
00:42:05,700 --> 00:42:09,600
and you're urging them to then 
testify to essentially change 

724
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,900
the law in a mini Urban dictator
level thing where you like 

725
00:42:12,900 --> 00:42:16,000
Christmas was in terms of term 
limited to term. 

726
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:17,100
If you're a mayor of New York. 
Yeah. 

727
00:42:17,100 --> 00:42:20,700
Terms he Coming to the end of 
his second term and he wanted 

728
00:42:20,700 --> 00:42:21,800
the third one. 
Yes. 

729
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:23,600
Jeez. 
Who does this sound like Kim 

730
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:24,900
Jang, Hoon. 
I mean, I don't know. 

731
00:42:24,900 --> 00:42:29,200
Donald Trump, he care pick your 
poison but that's exactly what 

732
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,400
because he's a more moderate guy
and he got and he and he bought 

733
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,200
off a lot of the establishment 
of New York City through these 

734
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:40,500
contributions that he made. 
In other words, if I can just 

735
00:42:40,500 --> 00:42:43,600
put it this. 
Yeah, he used money for 

736
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:48,200
essentially extortion, purposes.
In other words give me my Third 

737
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:53,800
term, he used money or held back
money from people who weren't 

738
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:57,600
playing ball with him, in order 
to interfere with the election 

739
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,100
system of the city of New York, 
what sounds familiar? 

740
00:43:01,500 --> 00:43:05,000
Well, I'm just saying, this is 
what drives me crazy about 

741
00:43:05,100 --> 00:43:09,100
liberals Democrats or whatever. 
When they can't own up to that. 

742
00:43:09,100 --> 00:43:11,100
This site has also done it. 
Yep. 

743
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,000
And maybe we do it in a Kinder 
gentler way. 

744
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,800
Maybe the outcome is the ballet 
gets more money. 

745
00:43:18,100 --> 00:43:21,000
About yeah, from isn't trying to
help out any any when liberals 

746
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,400
do it, it's a lass here. 
It's classier. 

747
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:27,500
It seems smart. 
You know, it appreciates the 

748
00:43:27,500 --> 00:43:29,500
cultural intellectual ality of 
the city. 

749
00:43:29,500 --> 00:43:33,000
Yeah, etcetera etcetera. 
But it's still the same thing. 

750
00:43:33,500 --> 00:43:38,000
And I just read this past week, 
what you were talking about that

751
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:40,000
there was a story. 
I think it was in the times 

752
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:46,300
where, how many mayors exam? 
The country are endorsing him. 

753
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:48,200
It's his biggest. 
Endorsements. 

754
00:43:48,500 --> 00:43:51,700
And why are they endorsing him? 
It turns out all of the mayor's 

755
00:43:51,900 --> 00:43:54,700
all according to New York Times 
of the mayors of endorsed. 

756
00:43:54,700 --> 00:43:59,800
Hell yeah, have gone through 
this mayoral program funded by 

757
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:04,000
his foundation and so that's so 
I actually saw that story first 

758
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,100
and I tweeted about it. 
And then and then someone sent 

759
00:44:08,100 --> 00:44:13,000
me this 2008 story is like he 
did this back then to now 

760
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,000
they've gone through his mayoral
bootcamp or whatever. 

761
00:44:16,300 --> 00:44:19,200
This thing is there The 
government that he's yes, trying

762
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,200
to support. 
And also, I believe a number of 

763
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:27,000
these mayor's have done what he 
has done. 

764
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,300
Or did do they have to, they 
essentially have to support his 

765
00:44:30,300 --> 00:44:32,200
program. 
So, they've done things like, 

766
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:36,600
push for local gun laws, push 
for local climate change, makes 

767
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:38,900
statement saying that, even 
though Trump is pulling on the 

768
00:44:38,900 --> 00:44:42,200
Paris Accords, our city is going
to stay in the Paris Accords. 

769
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:46,300
Now, if you're listening to 
this, you could say well Mike 

770
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,600
isn't I mean, okay. 
Yeah, he shouldn't have to do it

771
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,600
that way. 
He's buying their support but 

772
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:57,300
look at the end result. 
May be less gun murders, maybe a

773
00:44:57,300 --> 00:45:00,000
cleaner Planet. 
So if that's how he has to do it

774
00:45:00,008 --> 00:45:02,900
and I say to them really, is 
that the world we want to live 

775
00:45:02,900 --> 00:45:04,900
in. 
Now, we're the only way we can 

776
00:45:04,900 --> 00:45:08,700
hope to get the few crumbs of 
the things that we believe in is

777
00:45:08,700 --> 00:45:13,300
if if billionaires by off other 
Mayors in order to get their 

778
00:45:13,300 --> 00:45:16,100
support when he or she runs for 
president. 

779
00:45:16,100 --> 00:45:19,900
I mean, Bloomberg solutions, to 
the issues are the kind of 

780
00:45:19,900 --> 00:45:22,500
solutions that deep in the 
problem, right? 

781
00:45:22,700 --> 00:45:25,800
Like there are and I think we 
all understand this in personal 

782
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:31,300
life if you are you know like I 
have a health problem you're 

783
00:45:31,300 --> 00:45:34,300
dealing with or if you are 
trying to raise your kids in a 

784
00:45:34,300 --> 00:45:38,600
certain way like there's certain
ways of solving a problem that 

785
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,500
deep in the fundamental problem 
are you can stop your kid crying

786
00:45:41,500 --> 00:45:44,200
by giving them a cupcake and it 
will stop them crying. 

787
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:45,600
It will absolutely stopped him. 
Right. 

788
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,400
Right, right. 
You've depleted And the problem,

789
00:45:49,100 --> 00:45:53,100
you've entrench the prop, the 
real issue there is your kid, 

790
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,700
like, not being able to 
self-soothe, are not being able 

791
00:45:55,700 --> 00:46:01,800
to, you know, regulate and 
you've now made them quiet in a 

792
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:03,700
way that increases the 
likelihood that problems going 

793
00:46:03,700 --> 00:46:06,000
to come back worse tomorrow or 
later that afternoon. 

794
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,100
I have a nearly five year old 
and two-year-old. 

795
00:46:08,100 --> 00:46:11,300
I understand this intimately. 
And so similar to use the 

796
00:46:11,300 --> 00:46:14,800
cupcake method I use, the I 
can't say, I haven't used, I've 

797
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:16,500
you, I used to use the juice 
box. 

798
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:19,700
This box is incredibly effective
because I hit because then I 

799
00:46:19,700 --> 00:46:22,500
could rationalize well it's 
healthy. 

800
00:46:22,500 --> 00:46:24,000
Its fruit. 
Yeah exactly. 

801
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:25,600
And I'm really sugaring. 
Correct. 

802
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:29,000
I'm up. 
Correct and so these are these 

803
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:33,400
are what we might call Juice Box
Solutions where someone like 

804
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,600
Michael Bloomberg is stepping in
on climate. 

805
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:40,000
That is true. 
And so we do stop crying for a 

806
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,800
certain period of time, but what
he is the deeper thing he is 

807
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:49,200
done is in trench and just Fi 
the notion that billionaires 

808
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,600
know, best in trench and justify
the power of billionaires to 

809
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:57,700
dictate public priorities 
justify and entrench the 

810
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:02,700
reputation of him. 
And his class of people in a way

811
00:47:02,700 --> 00:47:10,100
that on balance is going to fuel
and and help secure the power of

812
00:47:10,500 --> 00:47:12,700
the people who are also causing 
climate change. 

813
00:47:12,700 --> 00:47:14,600
I think what someone like 
Michael Bloomberg and doesn't 

814
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:17,100
understand that every time he 
makes it something better on, 

815
00:47:17,300 --> 00:47:20,600
Climate change and is another 
part of what he is doing. 

816
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:25,800
Is helping the people who run 
ExxonMobil stay in power, and I 

817
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,400
know that Michael Bloomberg was 
here or Howard Wolfson who works

818
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:30,700
with him. 
They would Soviet Molly disagree

819
00:47:30,700 --> 00:47:33,000
with this, but I'm trying to 
urge him to understand this at a

820
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,100
deeper level. 
It's not that what they're doing

821
00:47:35,100 --> 00:47:38,800
is not what they're doing. 
It is it's just giving off a 

822
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:44,200
byproduct, which is justifying 
the very system of plutocracy 

823
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:47,600
that is behind these problems 
and and when you think about, 

824
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:50,100
you know, Bloomberg used to do 
this thing. 

825
00:47:51,100 --> 00:47:54,200
When he Mayor of New York City, 
where he would propose something

826
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:58,000
and then that would historically
been funded by the city. 

827
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:03,500
But to save the city money, 
quote unquote, he would fund it 

828
00:48:03,500 --> 00:48:06,100
through Bloomberg philanthropies
and there's actually some of 

829
00:48:06,107 --> 00:48:07,300
these things all around the 
city. 

830
00:48:07,300 --> 00:48:09,700
Certain Museum things that 
normally would have been public 

831
00:48:09,700 --> 00:48:11,100
priorities and it was a little 
bit of a show. 

832
00:48:11,100 --> 00:48:15,800
Like I want to do this as mayor 
and I don't need to nickel and 

833
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,800
dime on it the same way I would,
if it was public money because 

834
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:22,700
I'll just do it now that might 
It seemed nice to people and 

835
00:48:22,700 --> 00:48:27,000
saving them taxpayer money. 
When you now hear these stories 

836
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:32,900
of how the price of that was, 
people actually being forced to 

837
00:48:32,900 --> 00:48:39,200
speak up for a third term or now
endorse him, you know, forced in

838
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:41,900
the classic Mafia way. 
Where seemingly you have a 

839
00:48:41,900 --> 00:48:45,600
choice? 
It makes you understand 

840
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:48,000
something very profound about 
philanthropy that I have been 

841
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,300
trying to argue, which is a 
philanthropy isn't only. 

842
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,000
Only a kind act big 
philanthropy. 

843
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,700
It is a kind act, but it does a 
couple other things going on. 

844
00:48:57,900 --> 00:49:03,700
Number one, it provides a 
powerful means of extending the 

845
00:49:03,700 --> 00:49:07,900
power. 
Of a rich person in addition to 

846
00:49:07,900 --> 00:49:12,100
being a kind act. 
It's allows you to, you know, 

847
00:49:12,100 --> 00:49:14,000
get people to say, you should 
have a third term, that is an 

848
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,100
exertion of power, right? 
And a tax-deductible, once you 

849
00:49:17,107 --> 00:49:19,800
get a tax deduction for that 
philanthropic gift, but you're 

850
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:23,300
reaping a very personal reward 
which is a bunch of allies out 

851
00:49:23,300 --> 00:49:26,300
there on the society who depend 
on your checks, right? 

852
00:49:26,300 --> 00:49:30,000
You're reaping benefits that 
actually you, you can't buy 

853
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,900
these benefit. 
No, but in the, in the giving, 

854
00:49:35,100 --> 00:49:39,800
Of the chef's. 
The generosity has this ripple 

855
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:42,400
effect that comes back to you in
a wonderful? 

856
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,200
Yes for yourself that and that 
is unregulated in a way that a 

857
00:49:45,207 --> 00:49:47,400
lot of business transactions are
actually not unregulated. 

858
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,400
You said there's at it, you get 
a tax deduction for it to 

859
00:49:49,500 --> 00:49:52,000
Second. 
You get to clean your name. 

860
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,100
Now that might be most may not 
be most relevant to Michael 

861
00:49:55,100 --> 00:49:57,900
Bloomberg but you seen people 
like the Sackler or others Jeff 

862
00:49:57,900 --> 00:50:01,700
Bezos where you really have you 
know you have a PR problem on 

863
00:50:01,700 --> 00:50:04,700
your hands the way you've made 
your money is intrinsically. 

864
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:08,400
You don't just have one little 
oil spill like that the Exxon 

865
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:13,200
Mobil, like the intrinsic Act of
the business is a big fat 

866
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:16,300
reputation problem, right, 
right, right. 

867
00:50:16,300 --> 00:50:20,000
The only thing you can do that's
not like getting a better 

868
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:21,200
publicist. 
That's not going to solve that 

869
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:25,000
problem, right? 
You have to do some pretty Epic 

870
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:30,200
do-gooding. 
To cleanse that name and 

871
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,600
philanthropy has come to 
function for many plutocrats and

872
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:36,000
big companies as a kind of 
drive-thru reputational 

873
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,800
laundromat for that problem and 
it works. 

874
00:50:39,900 --> 00:50:42,500
It does work. 
Even in just the way that they 

875
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:45,800
Walmart, the commercials that 
they run. 

876
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,700
Now we are. 
Well you would call them if you 

877
00:50:48,700 --> 00:50:51,300
want to put a label on them, 
incredibly Progressive. 

878
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:54,500
They show gay couples gay 
families. 

879
00:50:54,500 --> 00:50:57,700
Yes they show gay people. 
Kissing each other? 

880
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,900
Yes. 
In the Walmart commercial they 

881
00:51:00,900 --> 00:51:03,000
do things. 
You're thinking this is Walmart.

882
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:04,800
Yep. 
Oh my God. 

883
00:51:04,900 --> 00:51:08,300
They've joined the human race 
and this is the new woke manic 

884
00:51:08,300 --> 00:51:10,400
hyper capitalism. 
Right? 

885
00:51:10,500 --> 00:51:16,200
The woke manic hyper capitalism 
is a company like Walmart. 

886
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:22,100
Now supporting the right of a 
broke-ass man to love a broke 

887
00:51:22,100 --> 00:51:23,800
ass man. 
Right? 

888
00:51:24,900 --> 00:51:27,900
Right, right. 
Love Whichever other fellow 

889
00:51:27,900 --> 00:51:30,700
broke-ass person. 
You want to love, right? 

890
00:51:30,700 --> 00:51:33,000
And that's this way in which 
sometimes identity politics can 

891
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:38,100
be used to entrench economic 
exclusion because it gives you 

892
00:51:38,100 --> 00:51:42,100
this easy way of rhetorically 
seeming like you're part of the 

893
00:51:42,100 --> 00:51:45,300
future, right. 
But you know what, to pay those 

894
00:51:45,300 --> 00:51:49,700
that gay couple anymore than you
know, you might have before 

895
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:55,200
Bloomberg you know it's we're 
talking about this here in in 

896
00:51:55,200 --> 00:52:00,200
December of 2019, we don't know.
Quite exactly where this is 

897
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:02,900
going to go with his Run for the
presidency. 

898
00:52:02,900 --> 00:52:05,600
But I'm going to share 
something. 

899
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:08,400
I've never revealed publicly 
before. 

900
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:13,900
Back in somewhere in the late 
90s, he asked me out on a date, 

901
00:52:14,500 --> 00:52:20,600
not a traditional date that 
implies sexuality, but Gordon. 

902
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,200
Yes, we have any make that 
clear, right, yeah. 

903
00:52:23,500 --> 00:52:24,400
Right. 
The start here. 

904
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:26,100
We knew we did know. 
He dated? 

905
00:52:26,300 --> 00:52:28,100
Why? 
Oddly, yes. 

906
00:52:28,100 --> 00:52:32,500
Well he called me first. 
I know if you knew who I was 

907
00:52:32,500 --> 00:52:34,000
this is you know it's back in 
the 90s. 

908
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:38,100
This is before you know I wrote 
stupid white man or Bowling for 

909
00:52:38,100 --> 00:52:41,200
Columbine wrote made a 911. 
This is all before. 

910
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:47,300
This is my early Roger and me TV
Nation days and he said I'd like

911
00:52:47,300 --> 00:52:50,500
to I'd like to ask you I'd like 
to ask you to hold a dinner with

912
00:52:50,500 --> 00:52:53,400
me except the dinner is the 
White House Correspondents 

913
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,600
Dinner. 
And now, this is the thing, one 

914
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:57,800
case. 
But you've probably people will 

915
00:52:57,800 --> 00:52:59,500
see this up right here in the 
White House, Correspondents are 

916
00:52:59,500 --> 00:53:01,200
mainly because they usually have
a comedian up there. 

917
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:07,500
That is really hopefully Stick 
it to the people in power and he

918
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:13,600
and so the way this dinner works
is that it set up by the White 

919
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:16,700
House correspondent so it's a 
journalism function to raise 

920
00:53:16,700 --> 00:53:20,800
money for their Charities, but 
what they do is they get to 

921
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,400
invite celebrities to be at 
their table. 

922
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:27,600
So Bloomberg, At that time, they
had a Bloomberg News, has called

923
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:31,400
me to be his to walk. 
The red carpet with him into 

924
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:38,000
this thing so long before he's, 
you know, mayor And I'm, I'm of 

925
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:41,100
two minds immediately, but one, 
I don't want to go to anything 

926
00:53:41,100 --> 00:53:44,000
where I have to dress up, right?
All right, as is clear from you.

927
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:45,800
You can see me, right? 
Sitting here right now, you're 

928
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:48,700
fairly casual. 
He's being polite. 

929
00:53:51,700 --> 00:53:55,100
It's the middle of December. 
And I mean shorts, and we're in 

930
00:53:55,100 --> 00:53:57,400
New York City, their breathable 
shorts, but they are you've 

931
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,500
noticed this, but that's are 
breathable. 

932
00:54:00,700 --> 00:54:02,300
I'm a writer. 
I, you know, I observe, it's 

933
00:54:02,300 --> 00:54:05,000
very good. 
I get paid by the observation. 

934
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:10,100
The, so he so right away. 
I don't want to do it. 

935
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:13,500
I don't want, I don't want to, I
don't know what I'd say to him, 

936
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:17,200
but then when I thought that, I 
thought, wait a minute, what I 

937
00:54:17,207 --> 00:54:19,400
would say to you, I want him to 
talk. 

938
00:54:19,900 --> 00:54:23,200
This is a what Golden 
opportunity to do and just 

939
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:25,700
listen and observe and just Lou 
Who. 

940
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:31,300
So I said yes and I show up 
there with. 

941
00:54:31,300 --> 00:54:35,000
Well, it turns out I'm not 
saying he was two-timing me but 

942
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:38,900
he invited more than just me to 
be his date at the table. 

943
00:54:38,900 --> 00:54:46,100
Well, so I have to share him 
with Bill Daley with that time 

944
00:54:46,100 --> 00:54:48,800
was the Secretary of Treasury. 
He was the he's the brother of 

945
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:50,200
the mayor of Chicago at the 
time. 

946
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:54,900
Richard Daley. 
A junior and but he was, he's 

947
00:54:54,900 --> 00:54:58,400
the guy in charge of the money. 
Bloomberg has got the secretary 

948
00:54:58,900 --> 00:55:01,400
of the United States Treasury 
here. 

949
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:06,700
You know, just as I say that now
I think wait a minute, it was a 

950
00:55:06,700 --> 00:55:09,100
Commerce or Commerce treasury. 
Yeah. 

951
00:55:09,100 --> 00:55:10,800
It was Chief of Staff the worst,
yeah. 

952
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:13,500
Okay, even worse. 
Yeah, because if Ali was was 

953
00:55:13,500 --> 00:55:15,100
just counting the money in the 
gold. 

954
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:17,400
Yeah bricks. 
One job. 

955
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:22,000
But to be the Secretary of 
Commerce & 2 & 2, Mike 

956
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:25,000
Bloomberg, stable, like, we're 
you guys on either side of him? 

957
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:27,700
Yes, yes. 
Well and there was one more. 

958
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,500
He was actually three timing. 
Well, I'm here. 

959
00:55:31,100 --> 00:55:37,500
It was him and the Secretary of 
Commerce, Bill Daley and Charlie

960
00:55:37,500 --> 00:55:39,600
Rose. 
Wow. 

961
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:42,600
Now this is pre me to Charlie 
Rose. 

962
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:46,200
Well, look at his pre to well, 
we to Revelation Revelation, 

963
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:49,300
correct. 
He was he was very much a 

964
00:55:49,300 --> 00:55:54,200
participant and and The a 
proficient participant in me me 

965
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:56,700
to behavior. 
As we now know, but of course, 

966
00:55:56,800 --> 00:56:01,500
none of us knew that the time in
and I see him at the table with 

967
00:56:01,500 --> 00:56:05,500
us, he's walking the red carpet.
And my first thought is with him

968
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:11,400
is I had been blacklisted banned
from a show for almost 10 years 

969
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:13,800
at that point. 
Well, it's a long story. 

970
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:16,100
I don't need to get into it, but
suffice it to say he kept 

971
00:56:16,100 --> 00:56:19,600
calling me Roger Moore. 
During the interview not an 

972
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:24,000
unusual dyslexic. 
Issue, dyslexia is a common 

973
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:25,300
thing with us. 
All of us. 

974
00:56:25,300 --> 00:56:28,300
Some of us, my film is called 
Roger and me. 

975
00:56:28,700 --> 00:56:33,700
My name is Michael Moore and I 
look like James Bond, I guess? 

976
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:38,700
So so here and finally, I just, 
I interrupted him. 

977
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:41,500
All right. 
During the like interview, I 

978
00:56:41,500 --> 00:56:43,800
just because I'm just again at 
home people, I'm not worried 

979
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:45,100
about me. 
I didn't call me anything you 

980
00:56:45,100 --> 00:56:46,900
want. 
I don't care what people are 

981
00:56:46,900 --> 00:56:49,500
thinking. 
Is this guy an idiot, right? 

982
00:56:49,700 --> 00:56:55,000
And he was so, So upset that I 
essentially interrupted in stop,

983
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:58,300
the interview to get him to call
me by my given name. 

984
00:57:00,900 --> 00:57:02,200
Not one. 
That's hard to pronounce. 

985
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:05,400
I was put on the list of, don't 
we have him back? 

986
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:06,900
I'm sorry. 
Now I understand why he never 

987
00:57:06,900 --> 00:57:09,300
had someone named on and 
together with us on the show. 

988
00:57:09,300 --> 00:57:12,000
No police. 
Yeah. 

989
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:18,900
So I went over and sat beside 
him and had it out with him in a

990
00:57:18,900 --> 00:57:22,000
nice way, though. 
Like, this is You can't keep a 

991
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:24,700
grudge like this, this is crazy.
First of all, you're not even 

992
00:57:24,700 --> 00:57:29,700
Irish, you know, I mean, we, you
know, the old joke that I suffer

993
00:57:29,700 --> 00:57:33,500
from Irish Alzheimer's disease 
which means I forget everything 

994
00:57:33,500 --> 00:57:38,100
except holding The Grudge. 
It's like you don't have a right

995
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:42,600
to be mad at me. 10 years later 
because I just wanted you to 

996
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:45,300
call me by my name is he 
acknowledged that he was mad 

997
00:57:45,300 --> 00:57:47,800
about that. 
Yes and he said you know I 

998
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:51,000
really have a clear memory of 
this and your right eye. 

999
00:57:51,100 --> 00:57:56,100
I have not thought about it now 
and years, but at the time I 

1000
00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:59,900
thought, well I don't need that 
on my show and I will have you 

1001
00:57:59,908 --> 00:58:04,400
back and he had me back. 
Well, okay, so the dinner was 

1002
00:58:04,408 --> 00:58:07,300
starting to have, you know, 
certain benefits at the table 

1003
00:58:07,300 --> 00:58:10,400
next to us was Susan McDougal. 
Who was caught up in the whole 

1004
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:13,000
Whitewater thing with the 
clintons, had a long talk with 

1005
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:17,000
her about Bill and Hillary and 
their days as friends together 

1006
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:20,100
and Arkansas. 
I never got to make a film about

1007
00:58:20,100 --> 00:58:22,600
that. 
But it's always, you know, I 

1008
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:25,700
store all this stuff. 
So my point with Bloomberg is 

1009
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:30,000
that this is the kind of thing 
where I'm I'm afraid that people

1010
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:33,200
will, wow, you know, of all the 
people you could have taken to 

1011
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:35,600
the Correspondents. 
Dinner, took Michael Moore. 

1012
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:38,500
That's how cool he is. 
Yep, that's how open and 

1013
00:58:38,500 --> 00:58:39,900
Progressive. 
He had a woke guy. 

1014
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:42,200
He's so he was woke before. 
It was woke. 

1015
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:45,100
Yes. 
And nobody was going to invite 

1016
00:58:45,100 --> 00:58:49,400
me in the establishment to their
dinners or their geillis or 

1017
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:52,700
whatever. 
But Mike Bloomberg, Yes, and I 

1018
00:58:53,100 --> 00:58:55,600
also know how that's intended 
for me. 

1019
00:58:56,100 --> 00:58:58,200
He doesn't know what I'm going 
to go on to do this is all again

1020
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:01,600
before the, the large movies in 
the Lorry, all the stuff that, 

1021
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:05,300
you know, but don't don't think 
for a second that that hasn't 

1022
00:59:05,300 --> 00:59:10,500
always been in my mind when I 
was somebody way out on that 

1023
00:59:10,500 --> 00:59:13,900
left, limb perceived as somebody
that was had to be persona non 

1024
00:59:13,900 --> 00:59:17,900
grata at an event like this, 
that he brought me in and he had

1025
00:59:17,900 --> 00:59:20,000
me at the table. 
I'm probably next to me and 

1026
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:22,300
said, yeah, I'm sure. 
Next to Michael fucking more, 

1027
00:59:23,300 --> 00:59:26,300
like it, or lump it. 
And what do I, what am I 

1028
00:59:26,300 --> 00:59:29,700
supposed to do? 
Ten years later, you know, when 

1029
00:59:29,700 --> 00:59:32,300
he does want that third term? 
Am I going to speak out against 

1030
00:59:32,300 --> 00:59:34,100
that actly? 
Am I? 

1031
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:36,600
You know, you've helped. 
I would, you know? 

1032
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:38,800
Or was if I was in the, I was 
back in. 

1033
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:41,700
Michigan them, but still and 
what you got to think about to 

1034
00:59:41,700 --> 00:59:45,300
take it from an intimate story 
to although not too intimate. 

1035
00:59:45,300 --> 00:59:51,900
Fortunately to you, too. 
The scale of the society is that

1036
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:55,700
you got to remember, there's 
about 400 something billion 

1037
00:59:55,700 --> 00:59:58,600
dollars being given away 
philanthropic lie every year in 

1038
00:59:58,607 --> 01:00:00,800
this country. 
Much of it concentrated at the 

1039
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:04,600
top at the people with those 
kinds of Fortunes and you got to

1040
01:00:04,607 --> 01:00:09,100
think about when you zoom out 
from that one story, how many 

1041
01:00:09,100 --> 01:00:16,000
silences are being bought? 
How many testimonies to go help 

1042
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:20,000
someone boost their power are 
being ordered up how many 

1043
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:22,500
endorsements are being ginned 
up? 

1044
01:00:23,300 --> 01:00:29,100
What is the cumulative effect of
those who are out there, making 

1045
01:00:29,100 --> 01:00:31,900
a killing using making a 
difference to protect the right 

1046
01:00:31,900 --> 01:00:34,400
to make a killing. 
And the people who are using 

1047
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:38,300
this rhetoric of changing the 
world, using it to entrench the 

1048
01:00:38,300 --> 01:00:41,100
right to actually keep their 
world. 

1049
01:00:41,100 --> 01:00:44,000
The same. 
And we've seen this and maybe we

1050
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,300
should talk a little bit about 
20/20 since we're both kind of 

1051
01:00:47,300 --> 01:00:50,500
interested in politics, you 
know, I think we're starting to 

1052
01:00:50,500 --> 01:00:54,600
see in 2020 both with Bernie 
Sanders, campaign animals with 

1053
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:57,900
warrant, that the billionaires 
are freaked out. 

1054
01:00:57,900 --> 01:01:01,500
I've named this the great 
pollute freak out of 2019. 

1055
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:04,800
Fortunately, the years coming to
an end, but it will continue 

1056
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:06,600
into the next year's off to 
rename it. 

1057
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:10,600
And what is happening is they 
are basically saying to go back 

1058
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:16,400
to the win-win conversation. 
We had they are not saying If 

1059
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:19,100
Bernie or Elizabeth wins, it'll 
be bad for me. 

1060
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:22,100
Billionaire, they're not saying 
that. 

1061
01:01:22,100 --> 01:01:27,400
That's the truth and by the way 
I respect that if that was the 

1062
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:31,600
argument, I may still vote 
anyway but I respect that. 

1063
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:33,200
I get that. 
I actually think 

1064
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:35,400
self-preservation and wanting to
hold. 

1065
01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:39,200
What's yours is a very normal 
human instinct and if you said 

1066
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:42,400
to me, I don't like these wealth
taxes things because I got a lot

1067
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:45,300
of wealth and I'd pay more and I
don't like that. 

1068
01:01:45,900 --> 01:01:48,900
I disagree but respected, they 
don't say that. 

1069
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:54,400
What they say is, if you do 
this, this will be bad for you. 

1070
01:01:55,700 --> 01:01:58,800
Mark Zuckerberg, I call this 
economic concern trolling, 

1071
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:00,700
right? 
Where you're pretending, you're 

1072
01:02:00,700 --> 01:02:03,800
really worried about the other 
person but in this paternalistic

1073
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:07,200
way that's really about you. 
So you say Mark Zuckerberg came 

1074
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:09,300
out and said, you know, the 
problem with these wealth taxes 

1075
01:02:09,300 --> 01:02:13,300
is there would be less money for
medical less diversity. 

1076
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:17,500
In spending on medical research 
because right now billionaires 

1077
01:02:17,500 --> 01:02:20,000
are funding all these different 
medical research things because 

1078
01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:22,100
billionaires always fun like 
their disease, right? 

1079
01:02:22,100 --> 01:02:25,000
Bill Gates may be an exception. 
They have some weird heart thing

1080
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:27,900
that the sun is the center at 
UCLA for that weird heart thing.

1081
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:32,600
So it's biographical giving 
right and so Mark Zuckerberg 

1082
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:36,200
exclaim is like you're not that 
the subtext is like you're going

1083
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:39,200
to get some disease some day and
there's not going to be a cure 

1084
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:42,000
for it because all the 
government funding was 

1085
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:44,800
centralized on medical research.
And it wasn't billionaire 

1086
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:47,800
sprinkling, their different 
ideas, diversely Leon cooperman,

1087
01:02:48,500 --> 01:02:51,500
the tearful billionaire who 
Elizabeth Warren makes cry every

1088
01:02:51,500 --> 01:02:55,000
time she drops. 
A plan Leon cooperman says, you 

1089
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:57,900
know, I'm going to give so much 
money away. 

1090
01:02:57,900 --> 01:03:00,600
Me and my friends, to all these 
good causes and those good 

1091
01:03:00,600 --> 01:03:03,700
causes will be hurt if you tax 
my wealth. 

1092
01:03:04,500 --> 01:03:07,300
And Michael, Bloomberg says, if 
you do medicare-for-all, it 

1093
01:03:07,300 --> 01:03:09,900
would bankrupt our country for 
years. 

1094
01:03:09,900 --> 01:03:13,200
He's not saying I want to keep 
my money, which is normal. 

1095
01:03:14,100 --> 01:03:15,700
Right? 
If they just said the hip-hop 

1096
01:03:15,700 --> 01:03:17,800
video thing which is like they 
like their money and they throw 

1097
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:19,700
it up in the air and they like 
it, they like having it around 

1098
01:03:19,700 --> 01:03:22,200
them, right? 
No one would begrudge that. 

1099
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:24,800
I mean, we might vote against 
them in or begrudge them or 

1100
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:28,900
think they're frauds. 
But instead, I'm concerned, it 

1101
01:03:28,900 --> 01:03:32,400
would bankrupt America to do the
health care program that all the

1102
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:34,700
other rich countries already 
have that didn't bankrupt them. 

1103
01:03:35,300 --> 01:03:39,600
And this kind of behavior is so 
transparent. 

1104
01:03:39,900 --> 01:03:42,000
And what is exciting to me about
2020. 

1105
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:45,100
Is it actually think people are 
Waking up to it and seeing 

1106
01:03:45,100 --> 01:03:49,100
through it and seeing through 
the neoliberal smoke in a way 

1107
01:03:49,100 --> 01:03:54,500
that I do, not think certainly 
in my lifetime, we have seen the

1108
01:03:54,500 --> 01:03:58,400
Democratic electorate. 
Do I think that's because these 

1109
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:02,400
wealthy people who claim to be 
somewhat liberal or Progressive.

1110
01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:06,400
Have taken it too far. 
Taking it too far to the point 

1111
01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:10,200
where people realized and I saw 
this really starting back in 08 

1112
01:04:10,700 --> 01:04:14,700
with the housing collapse, so 
many people's lives Livelihoods 

1113
01:04:14,700 --> 01:04:17,300
were ruined already. 
People have been losing their 

1114
01:04:17,300 --> 01:04:21,000
pensions and everything but boy 
when it comes to their home and 

1115
01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:25,800
how many people were evicted and
in how many of those, the 

1116
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:29,900
children of these people who 
might have been eight or ten 

1117
01:04:29,900 --> 01:04:33,100
years old at the time and and 
had to suffer as a result of 

1118
01:04:33,100 --> 01:04:37,400
this their voters. 
Now, these young people have 

1119
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:38,600
seen it. 
Yes. 

1120
01:04:39,100 --> 01:04:42,300
The rich expose their hand, you 
called them trolls in the way 

1121
01:04:42,300 --> 01:04:45,800
that they try to put. 
Use this fear like you. 

1122
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:49,600
Do you tax be too much? 
I won't. 

1123
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:52,700
I'm not going to have the money 
to fund the finding the disease 

1124
01:04:52,700 --> 01:04:56,500
that's going to save your mother
when she's old and broke because

1125
01:04:56,500 --> 01:04:58,400
of the other stuff I did in my 
business. 

1126
01:04:58,700 --> 01:05:00,700
Well, that's why I call it 
terrorism. 

1127
01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:03,900
It's a form of terrorism. 
Its economic terrorism. 

1128
01:05:04,300 --> 01:05:07,300
They are terrorists because they
do exactly what a terrorist 

1129
01:05:07,300 --> 01:05:10,700
wants to do. 
Scare the shit out of you so 

1130
01:05:10,700 --> 01:05:12,200
that you'll behave in a certain 
way. 

1131
01:05:13,100 --> 01:05:16,900
And, and do little things that 
really, they don't necessarily 

1132
01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:20,300
ultimately have the power over 
you, a terrorist, but if they 

1133
01:05:20,300 --> 01:05:23,400
can get you acting in a way 
where you make your decisions 

1134
01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:27,900
out of fear and that you or your
family or loved ones, will be 

1135
01:05:27,900 --> 01:05:30,000
hurt as a result of that, then 
they've won. 

1136
01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:32,500
And, and this is what they're 
hoping to do. 

1137
01:05:32,500 --> 01:05:35,500
There's like a bergson etcetera.
There, hoping that by 

1138
01:05:35,500 --> 01:05:39,900
instilling, this fear, they will
stop themselves from being taxed

1139
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:44,500
and and they will elect People 
that they want Empower. 

1140
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:49,200
I think it's, it's one of the 
most evil and Insidious things 

1141
01:05:49,200 --> 01:05:52,400
that takes place these days. 
And it's often done in the name 

1142
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:56,900
of, I'm a Democrat, I'm a 
liberal, I'm a progressive, you 

1143
01:05:56,900 --> 01:06:00,600
know, look at me, look at what 
I've done, trust me, trust me, I

1144
01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:02,400
have earned your trust by doing 
this. 

1145
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:06,700
I've also participated in 
creating an economy that has 

1146
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:10,400
such an enormous gap between the
Haves and the Have Nots. 

1147
01:06:11,200 --> 01:06:15,000
That you probably will not be 
able to pay off your college 

1148
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:17,400
loan. 
I mean the pitch is please let 

1149
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:20,000
me rub you. 
I'm woke, right. 

1150
01:06:20,100 --> 01:06:23,700
Wow. 
Can I just say that again? 

1151
01:06:25,400 --> 01:06:30,300
What their pitch is is please 
let me Rob you, because I'm 

1152
01:06:30,300 --> 01:06:32,700
woke. 
Let Mark Zuckerberg. 

1153
01:06:32,700 --> 01:06:36,100
Rob you. 
Of a free and fair election. 

1154
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:39,600
That is not the platform for 
Russian cyber War operation. 

1155
01:06:39,600 --> 01:06:44,400
Let him do that, because he 
cares about immigration, the way

1156
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:48,400
you do, let Michael Bloomberg, 
deep in the hold of the 

1157
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:51,100
financial industry and of 
billionaires over public life 

1158
01:06:51,100 --> 01:06:55,400
and literally attempt to 
purchase a federal presidential 

1159
01:06:55,400 --> 01:06:59,300
election. 
Because he's woke on climate 

1160
01:06:59,300 --> 01:07:06,600
change and gun rights. 
Let someone who in the financial

1161
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:12,400
industry has wrought Devastation
on Michigan and other parts of 

1162
01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:14,600
this country through the housing
crisis. 

1163
01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:20,500
Let them reinvent themselves as 
revitalizing America's Urban 

1164
01:07:20,500 --> 01:07:23,300
centers and go on 60 Minutes 
talking about how they're 

1165
01:07:23,300 --> 01:07:27,400
helping Detroit, come back. 
From the thing, they literally 

1166
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:31,500
did to Detroit a second ago. 
Let them do that because there 

1167
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:36,300
were there woke, and we have to 
stop allowing ourselves 

1168
01:07:36,300 --> 01:07:39,500
consenting, which is what I 
believe, we're often doing 

1169
01:07:39,500 --> 01:07:45,000
consenting to being robbed by 
people who are woke. 

1170
01:07:45,500 --> 01:07:49,500
When you wrote that op-ed this 
summer, and you got the email 

1171
01:07:49,500 --> 01:07:53,800
and then the call from Jamie 
dimon JPMorgan, Chase Bank. 

1172
01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:58,100
That you made a correct that. 
So I was it was not up, is a 

1173
01:07:58,100 --> 01:07:59,800
quote in the New York Times 
article quoting. 

1174
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:03,500
Our times aren't ya? 
I don't think it was a month or 

1175
01:08:03,500 --> 01:08:07,300
two later when I'm watching 60 
Minutes one night. 

1176
01:08:07,300 --> 01:08:08,800
Correct? 
And, you know, they usually if 

1177
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:11,100
they have three segments on 60 
Minutes of three stories that 

1178
01:08:11,100 --> 01:08:14,900
they follow others, sometimes 
like strong piece of Journalism,

1179
01:08:16,899 --> 01:08:21,100
then there is kind of a lighter 
fare and then there's maybe a 

1180
01:08:21,100 --> 01:08:25,100
profile on a concert pianist. 
That's the generally the gist of

1181
01:08:25,100 --> 01:08:29,000
it. 
And they should let you run 60m.

1182
01:08:29,000 --> 01:08:30,800
You got the whole formula. 
Yeah, you got bang. 

1183
01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:32,899
These things out. 
I could do it in my sleep, 

1184
01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:34,000
seriously. 
Yeah. 

1185
01:08:34,399 --> 01:08:36,700
But they save a little time 
called 30 minutes. 

1186
01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:39,200
No, I would, I would try to get 
a second row called 30 minutes 

1187
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:42,200
and it would be basically, you 
know, you and I and Naomi Klein 

1188
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:43,200
and a few others. 
Yeah. 

1189
01:08:43,399 --> 01:08:45,500
Yeah, exactly. 
We telling the other side of the

1190
01:08:45,500 --> 01:08:47,500
truth. 
Exactly what they call the 

1191
01:08:47,508 --> 01:08:51,700
truth. 
No but they did not one, but two

1192
01:08:51,700 --> 01:08:55,200
segments that night on Jamie 
dimon, I think that's what I was

1193
01:08:55,200 --> 01:08:57,399
referring to. 
Like walking walking around, was

1194
01:08:57,399 --> 01:09:00,399
it Detroit? 
One of the first segment is how 

1195
01:09:00,399 --> 01:09:04,200
woky is right in his business. 
And there, they brings them into

1196
01:09:05,100 --> 01:09:08,100
Chase and they walk around and 
they do what they do. 

1197
01:09:08,800 --> 01:09:11,899
No child labor, no, no, yes, 
they're very good about all 

1198
01:09:11,907 --> 01:09:17,300
these things and good guy, good 
politics, good Heart part two. 

1199
01:09:17,300 --> 01:09:23,200
Segments to is Detroit, he goes 
to Detroit with him and shows us

1200
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:26,000
how he is trying to save the 
Right? 

1201
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:30,000
From the Jamie dimon? 
Yes, yes to Jamie dimon trying 

1202
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:32,899
to save Detroit. 
Yes, I'm Jamie dimon. 

1203
01:09:33,200 --> 01:09:35,100
Correct. 
Yes, no. 

1204
01:09:35,399 --> 01:09:38,300
Not once has, he asked while 
they were walking around Detroit

1205
01:09:38,800 --> 01:09:42,100
of this, this Devastation and 
destruction that we're looking 

1206
01:09:42,100 --> 01:09:45,399
at. 
Didn't you really have a role in

1207
01:09:45,399 --> 01:09:46,899
this? 
Are you being serious that that 

1208
01:09:46,899 --> 01:09:50,399
didn't come up as a question? 
Not that what know it was kind 

1209
01:09:50,399 --> 01:09:52,300
of? 
There was the sort of softball 

1210
01:09:52,300 --> 01:09:53,800
liberal? 
Yeah. 

1211
01:09:53,800 --> 01:10:00,900
But you know and then And then 
he was very quick to deny that 

1212
01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:04,000
they had anything to do and then
they actually well, but there 

1213
01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:07,400
is, you know, and then he 
immediately as it was so. 

1214
01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:10,900
So this actually should be, they
should teach this in all these 

1215
01:10:10,900 --> 01:10:15,000
awful. 
Colleges now have journalism 

1216
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:18,200
schools, but they're really for 
students who are going to be 

1217
01:10:18,300 --> 01:10:21,500
publicist, right? 
And marketers, not real 

1218
01:10:21,500 --> 01:10:26,300
journalists. 
And the way he spun that Around 

1219
01:10:27,100 --> 01:10:31,600
and being from Michigan myself 
and caring deeply about Detroit.

1220
01:10:32,100 --> 01:10:36,500
I could feel the sort of okay I 
know who you are. 

1221
01:10:37,500 --> 01:10:40,900
But you're going to save that 
person on the Block, you're in 

1222
01:10:40,900 --> 01:10:42,700
the ambulance on the way to save
that person. 

1223
01:10:42,700 --> 01:10:45,500
I'm not going to stand on the 
street and stop you in that 

1224
01:10:45,500 --> 01:10:49,200
ambulance it was so skillfully 
done I'll basil. 

1225
01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:53,000
We should see if we could put 
this up on the website this week

1226
01:10:53,500 --> 01:11:01,800
for rumble, the link so you can 
watch the Jamie dimon twofer on 

1227
01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:06,400
that night and you can't help 
but leave it thinking that, 

1228
01:11:06,400 --> 01:11:06,800
okay? 
Maybe. 

1229
01:11:06,900 --> 01:11:11,400
Maybe he's done some bad stuff 
and maybe his a rich dude. 

1230
01:11:12,400 --> 01:11:16,700
But you know, he's trying to do 
something to guess and I think 

1231
01:11:16,700 --> 01:11:19,800
what's thinking about it 
relative to your movies. 

1232
01:11:19,800 --> 01:11:23,900
Like I think, what's I think in 
a way and that you've revealed a

1233
01:11:23,907 --> 01:11:28,000
few times that these people 
despite not being intellectually

1234
01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:31,500
aligned with, you have watched 
your movies of engaged with your

1235
01:11:31,500 --> 01:11:34,700
work. 
And I think I would say, They 

1236
01:11:34,700 --> 01:11:39,100
clearly understood from work 
like yours and Naomi Klein and 

1237
01:11:39,100 --> 01:11:42,000
others over the last year's like
this wasn't going well right? 

1238
01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:45,900
The the hollowing out of America
for the purposes of buying a 

1239
01:11:45,900 --> 01:11:50,800
fourth home is, you know, it was
going well for them economically

1240
01:11:51,200 --> 01:11:56,900
but it was a gathering PR crisis
over the last 20-30 years and 

1241
01:11:56,900 --> 01:11:59,600
the movies were coming out in 
the books were coming out and it

1242
01:11:59,600 --> 01:12:02,000
was painting a pretty unkind 
picture. 

1243
01:12:02,700 --> 01:12:05,400
If you think of where this 
Station was 10 years ago. 

1244
01:12:06,100 --> 01:12:10,700
And I think part of where I come
into this conversation is 10 

1245
01:12:10,700 --> 01:12:12,300
years ago. 
I don't think there would have 

1246
01:12:12,300 --> 01:12:14,700
been the second segment on 60 
Minutes. 

1247
01:12:15,100 --> 01:12:16,800
Right? 
I think, 10 years ago, I really 

1248
01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:19,200
just been like, here's the 
financial crisis and here's this

1249
01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:21,500
bank and like what, what's the 
story man? 

1250
01:12:21,500 --> 01:12:23,500
Like, what how do you feel about
it? 

1251
01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:26,500
Why'd you pay that fine. 
Ten years later. 

1252
01:12:26,500 --> 01:12:30,400
There's now this second segment 
and a lot of my work is on the 

1253
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:33,700
use of the second segment which 
is seat. 

1254
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:37,000
Jamie dimon's, doing all this 
nice stuff, the use of the 

1255
01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:41,800
segment to protect your right to
keep doing the thing that they 

1256
01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:44,700
detailed in the first segment 
but didn't really push you on. 

1257
01:12:45,300 --> 01:12:49,300
And another part of my project 
is to also say that you have to 

1258
01:12:49,300 --> 01:12:53,200
understand the social networks 
that keep all of this running. 

1259
01:12:53,300 --> 01:12:57,200
You have to understand that 
those Folks at 60 Minutes, some 

1260
01:12:57,200 --> 01:13:00,900
of them or just that kind of 
more General class of very Ultra

1261
01:13:00,900 --> 01:13:04,200
Elite journalists are hanging 
out with people like Jamie 

1262
01:13:04,200 --> 01:13:07,400
dimon, or the people who work 
for Jamie dimon at the Aspen 

1263
01:13:07,400 --> 01:13:13,400
ideas festival, or at Ted, or at
Davos, or at, you know, various 

1264
01:13:13,400 --> 01:13:18,800
other confabs like that, their 
kids are interning at each 

1265
01:13:18,800 --> 01:13:21,200
other's places, right? 
The bankers kids are interning 

1266
01:13:21,200 --> 01:13:23,200
with the journalist because 
they've kind of rebel against 

1267
01:13:23,200 --> 01:13:26,400
their Banker parents and the 
journalists kids are, you know, 

1268
01:13:26,400 --> 01:13:29,500
trying to intern with the 
bankers because they don't to be

1269
01:13:29,500 --> 01:13:31,500
poor like their parents were in 
their early part of their 

1270
01:13:31,500 --> 01:13:36,400
childhood or whatever. 
And it's this This club and I 

1271
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:38,400
tried to write about from my own
view. 

1272
01:13:38,400 --> 01:13:41,900
I there were moments when I was 
inside that club and inside that

1273
01:13:41,900 --> 01:13:44,100
Citadel and got to see how this 
happens. 

1274
01:13:44,100 --> 01:13:48,100
And the truth is, people are not
sitting in that club in Aspen or

1275
01:13:48,100 --> 01:13:50,000
whatever. 
Thinking about how do we screw 

1276
01:13:50,000 --> 01:13:52,700
people there watching your 
movies and thinking that is 

1277
01:13:52,700 --> 01:13:54,200
awful. 
That's terrible. 

1278
01:13:54,300 --> 01:13:58,600
We're on their, a failing to 
make a connection between how 

1279
01:13:58,600 --> 01:14:01,100
the Institutions and systems 
they're part of our their reason

1280
01:14:01,100 --> 01:14:03,300
for what happened in your 
movies, right? 

1281
01:14:03,500 --> 01:14:08,500
And And B, they are proposing. 
Then, the kinds of remedies that

1282
01:14:08,500 --> 01:14:12,100
worse than the Disease, by by 
deepening, the power of the 

1283
01:14:12,100 --> 01:14:15,400
Aspen Davos class over public 
life. 

1284
01:14:15,400 --> 01:14:19,300
When that in fact, is the root 
of so many of these evils can I 

1285
01:14:19,308 --> 01:14:20,700
tell you that what you're 
saying? 

1286
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:26,200
You're not just assuming this 
your this actually happens p as 

1287
01:14:26,200 --> 01:14:29,200
need to know you know you and I 
have been given these Peaks 

1288
01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:35,300
behind the curtain so we know 
yes who's dining with who And or

1289
01:14:35,300 --> 01:14:36,800
is it home? 
I don't know again, if I'd gone 

1290
01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:42,600
to college, I know. 
But I so I made a movie called 

1291
01:14:42,600 --> 01:14:47,300
sick about the healthcare system
and I was later told that a 

1292
01:14:47,300 --> 01:14:49,800
meeting was held in 
Philadelphia. 

1293
01:14:50,000 --> 01:14:55,100
They sent the VP in charge of 
public relations, or consumer 

1294
01:14:55,100 --> 01:14:58,300
markets or whatever to this 
meeting each of the each of the 

1295
01:14:58,300 --> 01:15:01,100
pharmaceutical companies. 
And I think some of the 

1296
01:15:01,108 --> 01:15:03,400
healthcare insurance companies 
were at this meeting. 

1297
01:15:03,700 --> 01:15:05,300
How are we going to deal with 
Michael Moore? 

1298
01:15:05,600 --> 01:15:07,900
How are we going to stop him? 
How are we going to discredit 

1299
01:15:07,900 --> 01:15:09,400
him? 
It wasn't the first time that 

1300
01:15:09,400 --> 01:15:11,600
this had happened. 
I'd been through this with Karl 

1301
01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:17,100
Rove with Fahrenheit 9/11 and 
you know the plan that he and 

1302
01:15:17,100 --> 01:15:19,100
the people are in the White 
House had to put together to 

1303
01:15:19,100 --> 01:15:21,200
make sure that we wouldn't 
affect the election that 

1304
01:15:21,200 --> 01:15:25,900
November and and Wendell Potter 
who was a vice president of 

1305
01:15:25,900 --> 01:15:28,800
Cigna. 
Basically later he quit he 

1306
01:15:28,808 --> 01:15:32,100
couldn't take it anymore. 
His job actually for the group 

1307
01:15:32,100 --> 01:15:35,500
for their Roundtable was I fly 
to Michigan and go to the small 

1308
01:15:35,500 --> 01:15:41,100
town that I lived in to, I was 
having a little Premier for the 

1309
01:15:41,100 --> 01:15:45,300
town and I don't think there's 
6,000 people in this town. 

1310
01:15:46,600 --> 01:15:50,500
And he brought his son and came 
because nobody had seen sicko 

1311
01:15:50,500 --> 01:15:52,100
yet. 
So it's like an early screening 

1312
01:15:52,600 --> 01:15:56,000
and he came there to watch, it 
brought a ticket, I didn't know 

1313
01:15:56,000 --> 01:15:57,600
where he was. 
You know, it's just in there, 

1314
01:15:57,600 --> 01:16:00,500
one of the people and we had an 
after party afterwards in the 

1315
01:16:00,500 --> 01:16:02,800
restaurant across the street. 
He came over to that little 

1316
01:16:02,800 --> 01:16:07,200
extra And he later told me, he 
said the drive back with his son

1317
01:16:07,300 --> 01:16:10,700
is 12 13 years old after 
watching that movie. 

1318
01:16:10,700 --> 01:16:14,200
And the movie is not about 
people without health insurance,

1319
01:16:14,200 --> 01:16:17,000
is about people with health 
insurers and all that great 

1320
01:16:17,000 --> 01:16:20,200
Private health insurance. 
We have how they're set up to 

1321
01:16:20,200 --> 01:16:23,400
screw you and two when you do 
get sick to pay as little as 

1322
01:16:23,400 --> 01:16:25,900
possible for when you are sick, 
even though you have health 

1323
01:16:25,900 --> 01:16:29,900
insurance, his son all the way 
back in the car, how could you 

1324
01:16:29,900 --> 01:16:31,400
do this? 
Why would you do this? 

1325
01:16:32,300 --> 01:16:33,800
You know, just challenging his 
death. 

1326
01:16:34,200 --> 01:16:38,400
And he said, I became so ashamed
that I was part of what I you 

1327
01:16:38,400 --> 01:16:40,500
just showed in your film. 
I couldn't take it anymore. 

1328
01:16:40,500 --> 01:16:43,300
He went he, I don't know how 
many weeks or months later, he 

1329
01:16:43,300 --> 01:16:45,900
quit, he quit, and is now 
running. 

1330
01:16:45,900 --> 01:16:49,500
One of the Medicare for all I 
know this because this is a 

1331
01:16:49,500 --> 01:16:51,500
remarkable thing that you just 
told the story. 

1332
01:16:51,500 --> 01:16:53,100
I didn't know who he was until a
week ago. 

1333
01:16:53,500 --> 01:16:55,300
He literally just reached out to
me a week ago. 

1334
01:16:55,300 --> 01:16:58,800
Wow, yeah. 
And said that he'd read my book 

1335
01:16:58,800 --> 01:17:03,000
and and that he recognizes these
moves, right? 

1336
01:17:03,000 --> 01:17:06,400
Because Like him. 
We're trying to make these 

1337
01:17:06,400 --> 01:17:07,300
moves. 
Right. 

1338
01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:09,800
Right. 
And can I ask you about 

1339
01:17:09,800 --> 01:17:11,700
something that I know? 
I know it's your podcast, but 

1340
01:17:11,700 --> 01:17:13,600
yeah, do not worry anything 
that's been. 

1341
01:17:13,600 --> 01:17:14,800
Yeah. 
Concerning. 

1342
01:17:14,800 --> 01:17:20,000
So I think back to your warning 
in 2016, which was so prescient 

1343
01:17:20,500 --> 01:17:24,900
about the ways, in which Trump 
was successfully, selling an 

1344
01:17:24,900 --> 01:17:27,700
awful thing in a way that was 
resonant with people and that, 

1345
01:17:27,700 --> 01:17:33,100
that spoke to people when I 
think about both Bernie Sanders 

1346
01:17:33,100 --> 01:17:34,200
and Elizabeth Warren. 
Yeah. 

1347
01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:39,100
And when I kind of just are my 
own ideas on these topics that I

1348
01:17:39,100 --> 01:17:41,700
get a lot of pushback from 
people who are sympathetic 

1349
01:17:41,700 --> 01:17:44,500
Democrats, I think who 
essentially say like yes on and 

1350
01:17:44,500 --> 01:17:48,500
you're right in theory but 
you're just gonna you're just 

1351
01:17:48,500 --> 01:17:51,900
going to get Trump re-elected 
like you know that it's the 

1352
01:17:51,900 --> 01:17:55,100
sensible moderate slightly 
racist Joe Biden. 

1353
01:17:55,200 --> 01:18:00,300
Who is our best shot and like 
this is not the moment to both 

1354
01:18:00,300 --> 01:18:02,900
try to beat Trump and do huge 
things. 

1355
01:18:02,900 --> 01:18:05,900
This is the moment to choose 
Between trying to do huge things

1356
01:18:05,900 --> 01:18:08,800
and beating Trump. 
Now, I do not buy this one bit, 

1357
01:18:09,000 --> 01:18:12,400
and I personally feel like if 
you want to beat Trump, you have

1358
01:18:12,400 --> 01:18:15,600
to sell people who have been 
shafted, some of the people he 

1359
01:18:15,600 --> 01:18:18,700
spoke to and others sell them. 
Something that is equally an 

1360
01:18:18,700 --> 01:18:22,300
oppositely exciting which is a 
bigger swinging Vision. 

1361
01:18:23,100 --> 01:18:28,000
But part of me does feel pause 
about this question of the twin 

1362
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:30,800
goals of beating Trump and 
massively transforming America 

1363
01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:33,600
at the same time and I just 
wonder how you how you think 

1364
01:18:33,600 --> 01:18:39,900
about it I believe that getting 
rid of Donald Trump, if that's 

1365
01:18:39,900 --> 01:18:44,900
our only thing that were up to, 
it will, the long game of that 

1366
01:18:44,900 --> 01:18:47,100
is that we're going to end up 
even worse off. 

1367
01:18:47,400 --> 01:18:49,200
We have to do two things at 
once. 

1368
01:18:49,300 --> 01:18:52,200
That's just the answer. 
Here we have to get rid of trump

1369
01:18:52,400 --> 01:18:55,900
and we have to, we have to get 
rid or fix or do something about

1370
01:18:55,900 --> 01:18:58,300
the rotten system that gave us 
trunk. 

1371
01:18:58,300 --> 01:19:00,000
That made impossible. 
Exactly. 

1372
01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:02,900
He did not fall out of the sky. 
Yeah I'll call him up. 

1373
01:19:02,900 --> 01:19:05,900
I call him a puss. 
Boil on a diseased body. 

1374
01:19:05,900 --> 01:19:08,800
Politic right? 
That's that's it. 

1375
01:19:08,800 --> 01:19:10,600
And yes. 
Remove the boil. 

1376
01:19:11,100 --> 01:19:12,300
Yep. 
Yes. 

1377
01:19:12,700 --> 01:19:16,100
But you're not you're not well 
now that you've removed the boil

1378
01:19:16,100 --> 01:19:17,800
but there's just going to be 
another boil. 

1379
01:19:18,000 --> 01:19:23,000
And next time the boil won't be 
as stupid as he is. 

1380
01:19:23,000 --> 01:19:26,700
It might be able to read. 
They will read the next Trump 

1381
01:19:26,900 --> 01:19:32,100
will read and and will will be a
lot smarter about it in the way 

1382
01:19:32,100 --> 01:19:35,400
that we've watched as Zuckerberg
and Bloomberg and others. 

1383
01:19:35,400 --> 01:19:38,100
Try to be smart about how to get
away with what they're getting 

1384
01:19:38,100 --> 01:19:39,800
away. 
Madam president Tucker Carlson 

1385
01:19:40,000 --> 01:19:42,700
and I don't like the guy, but 
he's that's a smart well-read 

1386
01:19:42,900 --> 01:19:45,800
guy. 
Yes, it's same platform, but 

1387
01:19:45,800 --> 01:19:47,300
literate. 
One of the things that might be 

1388
01:19:47,300 --> 01:19:50,400
saving us from the total 
collapse in these four years 

1389
01:19:50,400 --> 01:19:52,500
with Trump. 
Is that two things? 

1390
01:19:52,500 --> 01:19:56,400
In my mind, his lack of 
knowledge and his lack of 

1391
01:19:56,400 --> 01:19:59,000
ability to have anybody stay 
loyal to him. 

1392
01:19:59,700 --> 01:20:04,800
He can't keep a good Cadre of 
loyal lieutenants Who will do 

1393
01:20:04,800 --> 01:20:06,300
anything from. 
I don't mean the little, the 

1394
01:20:06,300 --> 01:20:09,000
lawyer, their loyalties getting 
in Congress during the 

1395
01:20:09,008 --> 01:20:13,100
impeachment, all that because 
they want to get reelected and 

1396
01:20:13,100 --> 01:20:17,800
they think that he's their path,
I'm talking about all fascist 

1397
01:20:17,800 --> 01:20:21,800
regime regimes in history, have 
been able to have a large 

1398
01:20:21,800 --> 01:20:25,600
contingent of loyal people and 
that's how they were able to 

1399
01:20:25,600 --> 01:20:28,800
keep going. 
This Trump doesn't have what the

1400
01:20:28,800 --> 01:20:33,200
Hitler's in the Mussolini's or 
the Pinochet case or the think 

1401
01:20:33,200 --> 01:20:35,600
of anybody That has stayed in 
power there. 

1402
01:20:35,600 --> 01:20:39,800
Authoritarian regime, you can't 
do it alone, you you need quite 

1403
01:20:39,800 --> 01:20:43,400
a number of people that are so 
consumed with their love and 

1404
01:20:43,400 --> 01:20:46,000
loyalty for you again. 
I'm not talking about the 

1405
01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:48,000
politicians in Congress. 
That's a fake. 

1406
01:20:48,400 --> 01:20:49,700
It's a fake loyalty. 
Believe me. 

1407
01:20:49,700 --> 01:20:53,200
I think a lot of them dumped him
as quick as whatever if they 

1408
01:20:53,200 --> 01:20:55,200
could, if they could, if they 
thought that they could. 

1409
01:20:55,200 --> 01:20:57,700
But I'm talking about what does 
he have in the White House? 

1410
01:20:58,200 --> 01:21:01,300
His daughter? 
Maybe her husband. 

1411
01:21:01,700 --> 01:21:03,700
Stephen Miller, one or two 
others? 

1412
01:21:03,700 --> 01:21:07,100
That's Much yeah, yeah if you've
talked to people who work in the

1413
01:21:07,100 --> 01:21:10,600
White House and work in the West
Wing or work in the Press Corps,

1414
01:21:11,300 --> 01:21:14,900
it's like a ghost town in there 
many days because first of all, 

1415
01:21:14,900 --> 01:21:18,200
they haven't filled many offices
in the executive branch, you 

1416
01:21:18,200 --> 01:21:20,100
know, and those are filled are 
acting. 

1417
01:21:20,100 --> 01:21:22,500
So, and so he's the acting he's 
theirs. 

1418
01:21:22,600 --> 01:21:27,600
So this is, this is, I think in 
part saving us, but it's not 

1419
01:21:27,600 --> 01:21:29,000
enough. 
If you were to say to me right 

1420
01:21:29,000 --> 01:21:32,000
now, look in the crystal ball. 
And if we all get behind Biden, 

1421
01:21:32,000 --> 01:21:33,800
we're going to get rid of trump 
and just do that. 

1422
01:21:34,200 --> 01:21:36,900
I would say to you stop first, 
I'll stop looking in the crystal

1423
01:21:36,900 --> 01:21:40,200
ball because it lies. 
You have no idea where we're 

1424
01:21:40,200 --> 01:21:44,300
going to be with Joe Biden in a 
month or two or five, but 

1425
01:21:44,300 --> 01:21:48,100
understand that the only way 
that Democrats are going to get 

1426
01:21:48,100 --> 01:21:50,600
out the base. 
The excited base to excite the 

1427
01:21:50,600 --> 01:21:52,500
base to get them to vote on 
November 3rd. 

1428
01:21:52,500 --> 01:21:57,100
Next year is because whoever is 
running is talking about these 

1429
01:21:57,100 --> 01:21:58,400
issues that you. 
And I have been talking about, 

1430
01:21:58,400 --> 01:22:02,400
yes, and policies that are going
to fix their lives in some 

1431
01:22:02,400 --> 01:22:03,700
better fashion. 
Yes. 

1432
01:22:03,800 --> 01:22:07,900
If If, if the, if you listen to 
this right now, if on November 

1433
01:22:07,900 --> 01:22:12,800
3rd, next year, you wake up on 
Election Day, if you're not 

1434
01:22:12,800 --> 01:22:15,400
feeling like you felt. 
If you're old enough to have 

1435
01:22:15,400 --> 01:22:18,800
voted for Obama, the first time 
in 08, everybody remembers that 

1436
01:22:19,000 --> 01:22:22,700
nobody that I know woke up that 
day and said oh God I got to go 

1437
01:22:22,700 --> 01:22:24,600
vote for Obama. 
It was bodily. 

1438
01:22:24,600 --> 01:22:29,300
It was like a bodily feeling. 
It was a bodily feeling and it 

1439
01:22:29,300 --> 01:22:33,800
was it was it was after eight 
years of George W, bush. 

1440
01:22:34,100 --> 01:22:38,300
And man, people couldn't wait to
get to the polls, and we are 

1441
01:22:38,300 --> 01:22:40,500
going to stand there for as long
as we need to stand. 

1442
01:22:40,500 --> 01:22:43,700
We're going to vote in Michigan.
It didn't matter how cold it 

1443
01:22:43,700 --> 01:22:47,200
was. 
And I think that that's its 

1444
01:22:47,200 --> 01:22:49,300
wrongheaded thinking and if 
you're if you're one of these 

1445
01:22:49,300 --> 01:22:51,500
people but Mike we got it, we 
just got to play it safe this 

1446
01:22:51,500 --> 01:22:52,700
time. 
I like Bernie Sanders. 

1447
01:22:52,700 --> 01:22:59,200
Well, this kind of fearful 
liberal Democrat, has been the 

1448
01:22:59,200 --> 01:23:03,500
undoing of us in the past and I 
want to just encourage people to

1449
01:23:04,100 --> 01:23:07,300
Just I always start by saying 
this, I believe the top four and

1450
01:23:07,300 --> 01:23:09,600
I believe that I actually do 
believe the polls in a 

1451
01:23:09,608 --> 01:23:11,200
head-to-head. 
We didn't have an electoral 

1452
01:23:11,200 --> 01:23:13,500
college. 
The top four would be Trump 

1453
01:23:14,700 --> 01:23:16,900
today. 
So maybe not worry so much about

1454
01:23:16,900 --> 01:23:22,500
that trust that the yes and and 
hope that the DNC has a plan now

1455
01:23:22,600 --> 01:23:25,000
and has studied the electoral 
map. 

1456
01:23:25,400 --> 01:23:27,600
Like there's actually some 
thinking that's going into this.

1457
01:23:27,600 --> 01:23:31,600
Yeah, and then everybody 
especially in the primaries vote

1458
01:23:31,600 --> 01:23:35,300
for the person that most Lights 
your flame. 

1459
01:23:35,900 --> 01:23:40,900
You don't don't not do that, but
you don't play Stratego here or 

1460
01:23:40,900 --> 01:23:42,800
something, right? 
You know, just you've got to 

1461
01:23:42,800 --> 01:23:45,800
this is not the time to bring 
out your college game theory. 

1462
01:23:45,800 --> 01:23:47,500
If you took Game Theory and 
college. 

1463
01:23:47,500 --> 01:23:54,200
Actually exactly if you know if 
you love Cory Booker goddamnit 

1464
01:23:54,200 --> 01:23:55,100
vote for him. 
Yeah. 

1465
01:23:55,100 --> 01:23:57,600
In the primary I that really 
resonates with me and I think 

1466
01:23:57,600 --> 01:24:00,900
part of what I'm concerned about
and I have been, you know, 

1467
01:24:00,900 --> 01:24:06,900
offering this free Consulting 
To, to any Progressive, who will

1468
01:24:06,900 --> 01:24:09,200
listen, and, you know, who am I 
for them to listen to. 

1469
01:24:09,200 --> 01:24:14,200
But but here's what I think, I 
also think the way in which the 

1470
01:24:14,900 --> 01:24:18,500
Bernie and Warren campaigns, but
also Progressive at lower levels

1471
01:24:18,500 --> 01:24:23,400
and electoral politics have been
pitching, their ideas has 

1472
01:24:23,400 --> 01:24:26,000
limited the potential support 
and excitement for them. 

1473
01:24:26,000 --> 01:24:29,000
And here I'm talking about 
really language and framing, not

1474
01:24:29,000 --> 01:24:32,500
the substance going, the 
substances is solid, and would 

1475
01:24:32,500 --> 01:24:33,900
really change a lot of people's 
lives. 

1476
01:24:34,000 --> 01:24:36,400
Sighs. 
But I think the substance and 

1477
01:24:36,400 --> 01:24:40,000
you tell me if I'm wrong about 
Michigan, but I grew up in Ohio,

1478
01:24:40,200 --> 01:24:44,300
went to college in Michigan. 
I think the way the Bernie and 

1479
01:24:44,300 --> 01:24:48,200
Elizabeth Warren programs, 
reading a lot of those places is

1480
01:24:48,900 --> 01:24:51,900
scary. 
You know, over transformative 

1481
01:24:51,900 --> 01:24:56,900
like vaguely European. 
And what I have been arguing is 

1482
01:24:56,900 --> 01:25:00,100
that I think both of them and 
others who want to achieve this 

1483
01:25:00,100 --> 01:25:05,500
America need to employ Two 
languages that they don't use 

1484
01:25:05,500 --> 01:25:09,400
enough that do work in those 
places, which is a language of 

1485
01:25:09,400 --> 01:25:15,300
patriotism and be a language of 
personal transformation, both of

1486
01:25:15,300 --> 01:25:17,100
which are deeply American 
languages. 

1487
01:25:17,100 --> 01:25:21,000
So on patriotism I kind of want 
to hear the word 

1488
01:25:21,000 --> 01:25:23,600
medicare-for-all the phrase 
Medicare for I can want to hear 

1489
01:25:23,600 --> 01:25:27,900
that less that's a policy phrase
that's a wonk phrase that's a 

1490
01:25:27,900 --> 01:25:31,300
think tank for he's fine. 
I want to hear about freedom 

1491
01:25:31,300 --> 01:25:33,900
from illness as a vital 
American. 

1492
01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:38,700
Freedom I want to hear about 
like I was saying the other day 

1493
01:25:38,700 --> 01:25:41,500
and I was sort of as a joke but 
also seriously like I think the 

1494
01:25:41,500 --> 01:25:44,200
Battle of Normandy should be 
invoked every time someone talks

1495
01:25:44,200 --> 01:25:46,000
about health care. 
I think someone should find a 

1496
01:25:46,008 --> 01:25:51,900
story of some dude who ran eight
times back and forth from the 

1497
01:25:51,900 --> 01:25:55,500
waterline to the cliffs to drag 
people. 

1498
01:25:55,500 --> 01:26:00,700
He didn't know to safety. 
People he would never see again 

1499
01:26:01,600 --> 01:26:05,500
and we should understand that as
a metaphor for the kind of 

1500
01:26:05,500 --> 01:26:09,100
health system that soldiers 
deserve to come home to and 

1501
01:26:09,100 --> 01:26:12,100
everybody else deserves to have.
I think we should undersell that

1502
01:26:12,100 --> 01:26:14,300
as like, this is who we are, 
right? 

1503
01:26:14,300 --> 01:26:17,300
We take care of each other. 
We have taken care of each 

1504
01:26:17,300 --> 01:26:18,200
other. 
This is who we are. 

1505
01:26:18,208 --> 01:26:22,200
This is patriotism and we should
flip on the first point. 

1506
01:26:22,200 --> 01:26:27,800
We should flip this Dynamic, 
where ruthless Capitalism that 

1507
01:26:27,800 --> 01:26:33,800
leaves people on the street is 
American somehow and is the 

1508
01:26:33,800 --> 01:26:39,100
policy of like hot dogs and 
apple pie and actually having 

1509
01:26:39,100 --> 01:26:42,200
the back of your fellow 
Americans even though you don't 

1510
01:26:42,200 --> 01:26:45,700
know their name is somehow 
vaguely European. 

1511
01:26:45,800 --> 01:26:47,900
So that's number one. 
I think I want to hear way more 

1512
01:26:47,900 --> 01:26:49,900
than patriotism patriotic to do 
that. 

1513
01:26:49,900 --> 01:26:52,600
Yes. 
Yeah and I want to hear and I 

1514
01:26:52,600 --> 01:26:55,400
think what's funny on the left 
is because of the war thing and 

1515
01:26:55,400 --> 01:26:58,100
because of Realism, like, 
there's this shyness around 

1516
01:26:58,100 --> 01:27:00,900
patriotism, and I think we had 
left me to actually get over 

1517
01:27:00,900 --> 01:27:04,100
that, a little bit on, on the 
right issues, right? 

1518
01:27:04,100 --> 01:27:06,300
I don't think we should go be 
fighting stupid Wars because of 

1519
01:27:06,300 --> 01:27:09,300
patriotism, but I think there's 
a language. 

1520
01:27:09,400 --> 01:27:13,300
The language of Justice isn't. 
The only language to sell some 

1521
01:27:13,300 --> 01:27:14,300
of this stuff that's kind of 
Point. 

1522
01:27:14,300 --> 01:27:18,800
Number one, point number two on 
is, is the, you know, almost the

1523
01:27:18,800 --> 01:27:21,100
opposite. 
Another very powerful American 

1524
01:27:21,100 --> 01:27:23,600
language vernacular is the 
language of personal 

1525
01:27:23,600 --> 01:27:26,600
transformation. 
Follow this diet, you'll Change 

1526
01:27:26,600 --> 01:27:30,500
your life, drink. 
This shake your marriage will be

1527
01:27:30,500 --> 01:27:32,900
saved, right? 
Take this pill, your love life 

1528
01:27:32,900 --> 01:27:34,800
will be enhanced right? 
We love that. 

1529
01:27:35,100 --> 01:27:37,800
You go to the grocery store. 
What did nine out of ten 

1530
01:27:37,800 --> 01:27:38,600
magazines? 
Right? 

1531
01:27:38,600 --> 01:27:41,400
At the end the ones that they're
trying to hope you buy even 

1532
01:27:41,400 --> 01:27:43,600
though you didn't want to buy it
you know, the budget for it. 

1533
01:27:43,600 --> 01:27:44,600
What are they trying to sell 
you? 

1534
01:27:44,800 --> 01:27:46,500
You can change your life can 
change. 

1535
01:27:46,500 --> 01:27:50,500
Now this whole American rhetoric
of personal transformation is 

1536
01:27:50,500 --> 01:27:54,100
personal, it's normally like you
personally do this one thing. 

1537
01:27:55,000 --> 01:27:56,600
And your life will be better. 
You pretend? 

1538
01:27:56,600 --> 01:28:00,500
It's all the responsibility is 
all on the person. 

1539
01:28:00,500 --> 01:28:02,900
I'm sure they went to people in 
Flint and said, you know. 

1540
01:28:03,300 --> 01:28:04,600
Yeah, you lost your job. 
This, not. 

1541
01:28:04,600 --> 01:28:07,000
But if you, you know and I'm 
sure you can't eat healthy 

1542
01:28:07,000 --> 01:28:09,700
options now but if you do this 
you can change your life. 

1543
01:28:10,000 --> 01:28:13,100
What I want, some of these 
progressives to learn to do, is 

1544
01:28:13,100 --> 01:28:17,700
to co-opt this language of 
personal transformation, but for

1545
01:28:17,700 --> 01:28:23,900
Grand public policy, And to say,
not what would you do? 

1546
01:28:23,900 --> 01:28:26,400
But who would you be? 
Who would you be? 

1547
01:28:26,500 --> 01:28:28,100
What kind of self would you 
have? 

1548
01:28:28,500 --> 01:28:32,500
If you didn't have student debt?
What kind of marriage would you 

1549
01:28:32,500 --> 01:28:35,700
have? 
If Healthcare anxiety was not a 

1550
01:28:35,700 --> 01:28:40,500
part of your marriage, right? 
What kind of relationship with 

1551
01:28:40,500 --> 01:28:45,400
your children? 
Would you have if you could work

1552
01:28:45,400 --> 01:28:49,800
one job instead of three and 
actually invite people? 

1553
01:28:49,800 --> 01:28:53,800
Because a lot of this stuff in 
the Progressive Movement, sounds

1554
01:28:53,800 --> 01:28:56,100
a lot like the way I sound 
frankly, a lot of time which is 

1555
01:28:56,100 --> 01:28:58,500
like corruption is bad. 
This is bad, this is bad. 

1556
01:28:58,800 --> 01:29:00,900
I think we have to do better 
myself. 

1557
01:29:01,100 --> 01:29:05,300
Included of showing people what 
life will be like if this 

1558
01:29:05,300 --> 01:29:07,900
succeeds. 
What will your life be? 

1559
01:29:07,900 --> 01:29:10,500
Like, I think what no one says, 
what? 

1560
01:29:10,500 --> 01:29:11,800
I don't hear Elizabeth Warren 
saying enough. 

1561
01:29:11,800 --> 01:29:15,200
Bernie Sanders saying enough is 
like life will be so much more 

1562
01:29:15,200 --> 01:29:21,700
fun in America if we win, right?
Like let's not let's not let's 

1563
01:29:21,700 --> 01:29:24,900
not bury the lead here. 
Yes yes yes, yes, transitions 

1564
01:29:24,900 --> 01:29:26,900
phase it. 
Yes sure all of it right? 

1565
01:29:27,500 --> 01:29:31,700
You know what's really fun to 
like not think about Health care

1566
01:29:32,400 --> 01:29:34,200
for the rest of your life and 
where it's going to come from. 

1567
01:29:34,200 --> 01:29:37,500
That is fun. 
It's a better more fun life, 

1568
01:29:37,800 --> 01:29:39,700
call your friends with that half
an hour. 

1569
01:29:39,700 --> 01:29:42,600
You don't have to stare at a 
medical bill, right to have the 

1570
01:29:42,600 --> 01:29:47,100
money to take a vacation. 
Grab the time off to have any of

1571
01:29:47,100 --> 01:29:50,700
the things that we should have 
as human beings money. 

1572
01:29:50,700 --> 01:29:53,700
As we know, is a leading 
stressor that causes divorces. 

1573
01:29:53,800 --> 01:29:54,500
Right? 
Right. 

1574
01:29:55,100 --> 01:29:57,300
How many think people go to 
therapy? 

1575
01:29:58,100 --> 01:30:00,900
People try, you know, as an 
Indian person I can say, you 

1576
01:30:00,900 --> 01:30:04,800
know, people try Tantra, people,
try all kinds of stuff, spice 

1577
01:30:04,800 --> 01:30:06,700
up, your marriage, you do, you 
know what to really spice up 

1578
01:30:06,700 --> 01:30:09,700
your marriage, not having 
student debt, or to pay for 

1579
01:30:09,700 --> 01:30:11,900
health care, right? 
Right. 

1580
01:30:12,300 --> 01:30:16,400
And I think part of why not, 
when I think about how do you 

1581
01:30:16,400 --> 01:30:19,300
not have had you not have the 
repeat of 2016 in places like 

1582
01:30:19,300 --> 01:30:22,200
Michigan. 
I want to see progressives going

1583
01:30:22,200 --> 01:30:25,000
to places like that. 
Unapologetically pushing for the

1584
01:30:25,000 --> 01:30:29,200
policies we've been hearing, but
Talking about it in a language 

1585
01:30:29,200 --> 01:30:32,300
of patriotism and talking about 
in the language of personal 

1586
01:30:32,300 --> 01:30:35,200
transformation and helping 
people see that this is the 

1587
01:30:35,200 --> 01:30:39,400
American thing, what we're 
pushing and this is the thing 

1588
01:30:39,400 --> 01:30:44,000
that will make your life. 
Thrilling, fun, Full Of Love 

1589
01:30:44,400 --> 01:30:49,000
Hole. 
And do not lose this argument to

1590
01:30:49,000 --> 01:30:53,300
some of the most ruthless greedy
mercenary people on Earth. 

1591
01:30:54,700 --> 01:30:56,500
Wow. 
I think if we did what you just 

1592
01:30:56,500 --> 01:31:00,100
said after, I think you and I, 
we should, we should make some 

1593
01:31:00,100 --> 01:31:02,100
short videos. 
Let's do it. 

1594
01:31:03,100 --> 01:31:08,100
You know, that if you just think
differently about the selection,

1595
01:31:09,900 --> 01:31:14,200
it could mean better sex. 
That I mean, how about just the 

1596
01:31:14,208 --> 01:31:18,300
chance to have sex instead of 
Doing so wiped out because you 

1597
01:31:18,300 --> 01:31:22,000
are working at third job because
you didn't even get to see the 

1598
01:31:22,000 --> 01:31:24,700
kids tonight if we're going to 
bed because you were, you had to

1599
01:31:24,700 --> 01:31:26,900
stay over Layton. 
You did have a choice. 

1600
01:31:27,100 --> 01:31:29,400
Yes. 
All the things that just make 

1601
01:31:29,400 --> 01:31:34,800
life so hard that I have, this 
is such a brilliant thing that 

1602
01:31:34,800 --> 01:31:39,700
you're saying and those who are 
listening, play it back if you 

1603
01:31:39,708 --> 01:31:45,600
need to share it. 
With people, tell people this 

1604
01:31:45,600 --> 01:31:50,400
that Because I don't know what 
happened to the liberal side of 

1605
01:31:50,407 --> 01:31:51,700
the fence. 
The left. 

1606
01:31:52,900 --> 01:31:57,400
We we used to be that were, we 
were the party people. 

1607
01:31:58,000 --> 01:32:01,500
We were the people enjoying 
life, sex, drugs and rock, and 

1608
01:32:01,500 --> 01:32:05,200
roll. 
All the stuff that we, that that

1609
01:32:06,000 --> 01:32:10,800
what we now have, and what we 
are giving our children is a 

1610
01:32:10,800 --> 01:32:14,200
pretty sad State of Affairs and 
in, you're right, I think if we 

1611
01:32:14,200 --> 01:32:17,100
just talk it, if we continue to 
talk About just how sad and 

1612
01:32:17,100 --> 01:32:20,400
wrong it all is. 
First of all, it shows that 

1613
01:32:20,400 --> 01:32:22,200
we're not even in touch with the
people we're talking to because 

1614
01:32:22,200 --> 01:32:24,600
they already know what's wrong 
and they already know their life

1615
01:32:24,600 --> 01:32:27,900
sucks. 
And and so what if we were to 

1616
01:32:27,900 --> 01:32:32,200
give them a window into it, not 
sucking how exciting that would 

1617
01:32:32,200 --> 01:32:36,200
be. 
You know, it's wow. 

1618
01:32:36,200 --> 01:32:40,100
I really, I think that you are 
such a Force for good. 

1619
01:32:40,500 --> 01:32:44,700
This book. 
Winners take all is just it's, 

1620
01:32:45,200 --> 01:32:47,400
I've encouraged. 
People, my sister just told me 

1621
01:32:47,400 --> 01:32:53,800
that she gave it this this fall 
to her husband for his birthday 

1622
01:32:53,900 --> 01:32:57,500
and I said, wow, how did you 
know about it? 

1623
01:32:57,900 --> 01:33:02,300
I see my morning Joe with you. 
Yeah, yeah. 

1624
01:33:02,300 --> 01:33:05,700
Well, you but but, but you go on
these you go on these shows and 

1625
01:33:05,700 --> 01:33:08,200
you don't sound like a pundit. 
We don't get to hear this. 

1626
01:33:08,400 --> 01:33:12,000
You understand, we really don't 
get to hear this but I am shit 

1627
01:33:12,000 --> 01:33:15,300
that well I and I think a lot of
people listening to this 

1628
01:33:15,300 --> 01:33:19,000
appreciate It and I hope you 
come back and we can continue 

1629
01:33:19,400 --> 01:33:21,100
this conversation. 
There's so many other things I'd

1630
01:33:21,100 --> 01:33:24,400
love to talk to you about. 
I want to tell you just one 

1631
01:33:24,400 --> 01:33:27,100
quick story. 
If this is helpful at all, these

1632
01:33:27,100 --> 01:33:30,600
anecdotes are these stories of 
what is in this book and how 

1633
01:33:30,600 --> 01:33:35,800
true it is, in terms of how they
have successfully bought off the

1634
01:33:35,800 --> 01:33:39,900
working class for so many years 
with this so-called generosity. 

1635
01:33:40,300 --> 01:33:42,400
And I've been thinking about 
this, since I was 16, I could 

1636
01:33:42,400 --> 01:33:47,000
never, you know, quite put my 
finger on I couldn't articulate 

1637
01:33:47,000 --> 01:33:50,500
it but I knew something was 
wrong in Flint. 

1638
01:33:50,600 --> 01:33:54,100
Michigan. 
There are or were at least a 

1639
01:33:54,108 --> 01:34:00,000
half a dozen General Motors 
factories and General Motors was

1640
01:34:00,000 --> 01:34:03,900
founded there in 1908 within 
three years. 

1641
01:34:03,900 --> 01:34:06,600
The people the town thought this
is the most dangerous thing 

1642
01:34:06,600 --> 01:34:09,100
that's ever happened. 
That this company was formed 

1643
01:34:09,100 --> 01:34:12,900
here in Flint and they are 
controlling the town and so the 

1644
01:34:12,900 --> 01:34:17,700
Socialist influent ran An 
individual for mayor in the next

1645
01:34:17,700 --> 01:34:21,700
election. 
Anyone this freaked out General 

1646
01:34:21,700 --> 01:34:24,600
Motors. 
So in the next election, Charles

1647
01:34:24,600 --> 01:34:26,300
Stewart Mott. 
You might have heard the name 

1648
01:34:26,300 --> 01:34:29,000
because he's nothing like those 
Foundation funds. 

1649
01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:33,500
A lot of good in PR stuff all 
that ran and they were they put 

1650
01:34:33,500 --> 01:34:38,500
out, they have the daily paper 
was on the GM side to put out 

1651
01:34:38,500 --> 01:34:41,000
all the stuff on the Socialist 
mayor and scandalous. 

1652
01:34:41,000 --> 01:34:44,400
You know, rumors about him and 
whatever and and they put a lot 

1653
01:34:44,400 --> 01:34:47,100
of money into electing. 
Ding one of the founders of 

1654
01:34:47,100 --> 01:34:49,600
General Motors as the mayor of 
the town. 

1655
01:34:49,700 --> 01:34:52,700
Because they knew, if they 
didn't put a stop to this right 

1656
01:34:52,700 --> 01:34:55,200
now, all hell is gonna break 
loose, they literally needed to 

1657
01:34:55,200 --> 01:34:57,600
own the town. 
They they and, and they did, it 

1658
01:34:57,608 --> 01:35:00,400
was a company town and they you 
bought your house from General 

1659
01:35:00,400 --> 01:35:02,500
Motors. 
You finance it through GMAC. 

1660
01:35:02,700 --> 01:35:04,800
Your car was from Germany who 
built the car than you. 

1661
01:35:04,800 --> 01:35:08,300
They charge you for to buy it. 
And the whole thing was circled 

1662
01:35:08,300 --> 01:35:11,000
around to more money in their 
pockets. 

1663
01:35:11,500 --> 01:35:13,400
He remained mayor. 
He was elected. 

1664
01:35:13,400 --> 01:35:15,700
I think three different times 
remain mayor for quite some 

1665
01:35:15,700 --> 01:35:18,200
time. 
Time, and he and others. 

1666
01:35:18,300 --> 01:35:20,800
Hence, why he set up this 
Foundation, very early on the 

1667
01:35:20,800 --> 01:35:22,000
trail storm. 
Uh, Foundation. 

1668
01:35:22,700 --> 01:35:26,800
He said if we if we keep them 
down, if we make life, so 

1669
01:35:26,800 --> 01:35:29,600
miserable for them, eventually 
they will rise up. 

1670
01:35:29,600 --> 01:35:33,000
That's what history shows. 
So we have to start doing things

1671
01:35:33,100 --> 01:35:35,000
to make things better. 
So they made the public schools,

1672
01:35:35,300 --> 01:35:39,000
he funded so much of the way 
Beyond his tax dollars to make 

1673
01:35:39,000 --> 01:35:41,200
them some of the best public 
schools in the country. 

1674
01:35:41,200 --> 01:35:43,900
In fact, people used to come to 
Flint to study the public school

1675
01:35:43,900 --> 01:35:46,000
system. 
But this is where I first To 

1676
01:35:46,008 --> 01:35:49,600
think about it because my dad 
and all the all the factory 

1677
01:35:49,600 --> 01:35:51,700
worker. 
Dad's you work for shift. 

1678
01:35:51,700 --> 01:35:55,500
That means you work from 6:00 
a.m. to 2:00 or 2:30 p.m. that's

1679
01:35:55,500 --> 01:36:01,800
it Euro and General Motors and 
the various powers that be 

1680
01:36:02,300 --> 01:36:06,700
decided to build golf courses 
public golf courses across the 

1681
01:36:06,700 --> 01:36:10,100
street or next to or nearby each
of the factories. 

1682
01:36:10,500 --> 01:36:13,900
So I and all my friends. 
So we're teenagers were out 

1683
01:36:13,900 --> 01:36:15,700
there on our dads would bring us
out. 

1684
01:36:15,900 --> 01:36:17,500
To work and teach us how to play
golf. 

1685
01:36:18,100 --> 01:36:20,300
And they all want. 
Every factory worker won't be a 

1686
01:36:20,300 --> 01:36:23,700
golf ball and to be a golfer. 
Now, this is the support of the 

1687
01:36:23,700 --> 01:36:27,800
for the rich, but they were so 
genius about this that you're in

1688
01:36:27,800 --> 01:36:30,500
this one, little case, let's 
give them a piece of what we 

1689
01:36:30,500 --> 01:36:34,200
have. 
Let's make them all golfers and 

1690
01:36:34,200 --> 01:36:39,000
and only charge it a quarter 50 
cents to play golf. 

1691
01:36:39,600 --> 01:36:42,400
And then they in turn brought 
their sons. 

1692
01:36:42,400 --> 01:36:45,800
Me being one of them onto the 
golf course to learn golf. 

1693
01:36:46,100 --> 01:36:51,200
And to be golfers, and 
eventually, there weren't as 

1694
01:36:51,200 --> 01:36:55,700
many strikes eventually things, 
you know, people forgot about 

1695
01:36:55,700 --> 01:36:59,600
well idea of socialism was, you 
know, you start to think of 

1696
01:36:59,600 --> 01:37:03,300
yourself as a future, yes. 
All playing executive. 

1697
01:37:03,700 --> 01:37:06,300
Well, and you buy, what is the 
American dream? 

1698
01:37:06,500 --> 01:37:09,800
That anyone can be the head of 
General Motors. 

1699
01:37:10,100 --> 01:37:12,600
If you apply yourself, you can 
invent something. 

1700
01:37:12,800 --> 01:37:15,700
You can create something, you 
can have the good life. 

1701
01:37:15,900 --> 01:37:18,500
And and just to give you a 
little taste of the good life, 

1702
01:37:19,100 --> 01:37:22,900
here's a set of golf clubs and 
golf course, you just have to 

1703
01:37:22,900 --> 01:37:25,100
walk across the street. 
You walk out of the factory 

1704
01:37:25,900 --> 01:37:29,200
after this back-breaking work 
all day but they're all nine 

1705
01:37:29,200 --> 01:37:30,300
holes. 
By the way there, I don't think 

1706
01:37:30,300 --> 01:37:33,100
there's sound throws 180 because
they got to get home, you know, 

1707
01:37:33,100 --> 01:37:36,400
I got a dinner, you know, back 
then you dinner 5:00 6:00 so, 

1708
01:37:36,800 --> 01:37:39,000
but they all played a round of 
golf in the name. 

1709
01:37:39,000 --> 01:37:41,700
When their sons were old enough,
they taught us to play golf and 

1710
01:37:41,700 --> 01:37:45,700
it's a city of friggin golfers 
in East. 

1711
01:37:45,900 --> 01:37:49,500
That is working class. 
That is that was back then half 

1712
01:37:49,500 --> 01:37:52,000
and half black and white and now
majority, that's an amazing 

1713
01:37:52,000 --> 01:37:56,500
example of you have 
philanthropic Lee funded golf 

1714
01:37:56,700 --> 01:38:00,500
that is entrenching the power of
the people stealing the future 

1715
01:38:00,500 --> 01:38:02,700
from those people. 
Think of the genius of that. 

1716
01:38:02,700 --> 01:38:05,900
And it's such a little thing. 
Yep, other less smart rich 

1717
01:38:05,900 --> 01:38:08,100
people would. 
Well let's let's write a check 

1718
01:38:08,100 --> 01:38:11,800
to the local YMCA, you know, or 
whatever. 

1719
01:38:12,400 --> 01:38:15,700
But this was like no, let's 
literally build five go. 

1720
01:38:15,900 --> 01:38:18,500
Of courses, they'll be owned by 
the city of Flint. 

1721
01:38:18,800 --> 01:38:22,800
It won't cost, hardly anything 
to play and and these workers 

1722
01:38:22,800 --> 01:38:25,700
will be able to walk around for 
a couple of hours thinking, I'm 

1723
01:38:25,700 --> 01:38:28,100
rich, too. 
I'm playing the rich man's game.

1724
01:38:28,200 --> 01:38:30,400
And, by the way, that's also a 
few hours where they were 

1725
01:38:30,900 --> 01:38:34,000
talking after work. 
And organizing going to 

1726
01:38:34,008 --> 01:38:37,500
political meetings, going to 
Union meetings, well, on that 

1727
01:38:37,500 --> 01:38:40,200
level to think about this golf 
is one of the sports. 

1728
01:38:40,200 --> 01:38:43,700
That is not team sport. 
It's an individualistic Sprite 

1729
01:38:43,700 --> 01:38:46,200
years that I mean, you're not, 
you're not having to Not be 

1730
01:38:46,200 --> 01:38:49,100
communing, not commuting. 
And are talking how we gonna We 

1731
01:38:49,100 --> 01:38:51,500
gonna win this game. 
That's just about you me, 

1732
01:38:51,500 --> 01:38:53,700
myself. 
And I, well, I thought about 

1733
01:38:53,700 --> 01:38:56,700
this as I read this in your, you
know, the sort of the concept of

1734
01:38:56,708 --> 01:39:00,000
this in your book. 
There's so many examples in this

1735
01:39:00,000 --> 01:39:02,600
is just my own personal example,
very powerful. 

1736
01:39:02,700 --> 01:39:05,600
And I again thought about it 
since I was a teenager but it 

1737
01:39:05,600 --> 01:39:09,700
took it took a decade or two 
before I figured out what the 

1738
01:39:09,700 --> 01:39:14,200
scam was here, how beautifully 
it worked to the point where 

1739
01:39:14,200 --> 01:39:17,500
many of these Auto Workers Would
end up voting for republicans 

1740
01:39:17,500 --> 01:39:23,100
and having conservative values, 
you know. 

1741
01:39:23,400 --> 01:39:26,900
In other words it's mimicking in
the way the gulf did the values 

1742
01:39:27,000 --> 01:39:31,100
of the wealthy class and you 
know, you started out by talking

1743
01:39:31,100 --> 01:39:34,400
about how you know that boot is 
on the neck, all these people 

1744
01:39:34,400 --> 01:39:36,700
and that that you aren't you 
were going to be blunt about 

1745
01:39:36,700 --> 01:39:39,800
this that the boot has to be 
removed from the neck. 

1746
01:39:40,400 --> 01:39:42,700
How we going to do that? 
It can't just be elections, 

1747
01:39:42,700 --> 01:39:45,700
right? 
I think elections are the 

1748
01:39:46,500 --> 01:39:50,500
Consequence of doing this, not 
the activity in itself. 

1749
01:39:50,500 --> 01:39:55,800
I think the way to do it is 
they're going to need to be Mass

1750
01:39:55,800 --> 01:40:01,600
popular movements that are 
powerful enough to counteract 

1751
01:40:01,900 --> 01:40:04,900
the role of money in elections 
that are going to be powerful 

1752
01:40:04,900 --> 01:40:08,300
enough, to put pressure on 
various institutions to put 

1753
01:40:08,300 --> 01:40:10,500
pressure on government in 
between elections. 

1754
01:40:11,900 --> 01:40:14,200
And I think, particularly look 
at young people today in 

1755
01:40:14,200 --> 01:40:20,100
America, there is a a real 
deficit of joining and you know 

1756
01:40:20,300 --> 01:40:23,500
I've been reading Jia Tolentino 
is really excellent book trick 

1757
01:40:23,500 --> 01:40:27,900
mirror and she said of talks 
about clicking as a substitute 

1758
01:40:27,900 --> 01:40:31,000
for joining in American life and
the rise of clicking in the 

1759
01:40:31,000 --> 01:40:35,100
death of joining and the point 
she makes, which is a very dark 

1760
01:40:35,100 --> 01:40:38,500
and powerful observation is that
when we go online to these 

1761
01:40:38,500 --> 01:40:41,500
platforms, whether it's Facebook
or Twitter or Instagram, two 

1762
01:40:41,500 --> 01:40:45,500
things happen, the actual thing 
that's happening is we are 

1763
01:40:45,500 --> 01:40:48,300
actually do Eating our time 
which is our most valuable 

1764
01:40:48,300 --> 01:40:52,900
resource for free to what are 
essentially advertising 

1765
01:40:52,900 --> 01:40:56,300
companies. 
Monopolies in many cases that 

1766
01:40:56,700 --> 01:41:00,400
literally use the revenue 
generated by our attention that 

1767
01:41:00,400 --> 01:41:03,200
we've donated to further 
polarize us. 

1768
01:41:03,600 --> 01:41:04,800
Right? 
So we're donating time 

1769
01:41:04,800 --> 01:41:07,900
institution that's like making 
our society worse and shorter 

1770
01:41:07,900 --> 01:41:11,100
attention span whatever. 
But what we feel we are doing 

1771
01:41:11,100 --> 01:41:15,700
when we go on those platforms is
we feel we are being Civic at 

1772
01:41:15,700 --> 01:41:20,700
these Platforms have generated a
false Civic Center. 

1773
01:41:20,700 --> 01:41:24,600
And I having read that in her 
book, I will say, I completely 

1774
01:41:24,600 --> 01:41:27,900
resonate with that when I spend 
longer than I should on Twitter 

1775
01:41:27,900 --> 01:41:30,800
in a day. 
I feel like I voted. 

1776
01:41:31,400 --> 01:41:34,200
Mmm right now. 
I feel like, I talked down the 

1777
01:41:34,200 --> 01:41:39,600
bad guys, and I amped up the 
good guys and I spread certain 

1778
01:41:39,600 --> 01:41:41,800
ideas. 
No, you haven't done that. 

1779
01:41:41,800 --> 01:41:43,500
You haven't done any. 
You've been stuck on your juice 

1780
01:41:43,500 --> 01:41:45,800
box, correct? 
Yeah, exactly. 

1781
01:41:46,500 --> 01:41:48,400
And I think one of the things 
we're really going to need in 

1782
01:41:48,400 --> 01:41:51,800
this country is to remember, the
clicking is not the same thing 

1783
01:41:51,800 --> 01:41:56,600
as joining and we need a new we 
didn't kind of new era of 

1784
01:41:56,600 --> 01:41:59,000
joining and it's not going to 
look like the old Arab joining. 

1785
01:41:59,000 --> 01:42:01,100
I think it's going to be unions,
but it's not going to be the 

1786
01:42:01,100 --> 01:42:04,100
Union's whose demise you've 
chronicled. 

1787
01:42:04,100 --> 01:42:07,100
I think it's going to be some 
new thing, right? 

1788
01:42:07,500 --> 01:42:10,700
The Union's you've explored in 
your work are never going to 

1789
01:42:10,700 --> 01:42:13,000
help Uber drivers but there's 
going to be more and more 

1790
01:42:13,000 --> 01:42:15,000
workers who look like that, 
right? 

1791
01:42:15,000 --> 01:42:17,200
Then the people, you know, Make 
cars in Flint. 

1792
01:42:17,200 --> 01:42:19,800
And so, what's the future of 
unions and collective 

1793
01:42:19,800 --> 01:42:21,600
bargaining? 
That has a future that has not 

1794
01:42:21,600 --> 01:42:25,600
been invented yet, but it's an 
exciting problem to think about,

1795
01:42:25,700 --> 01:42:29,200
you know, or if you think about 
political joining, I'll give you

1796
01:42:29,200 --> 01:42:32,200
an example sign. 
It Madden's me sometimes by 

1797
01:42:32,200 --> 01:42:35,500
choice sometimes just because 
people adieu to mailing lists, 

1798
01:42:35,500 --> 01:42:37,600
I'm on a bunch of different 
Democratic party. 

1799
01:42:38,000 --> 01:42:41,800
Email lists. 
The national one, local ones, 

1800
01:42:42,000 --> 01:42:44,800
Brooklyn ones. 
Until you know, you know the 

1801
01:42:44,800 --> 01:42:47,800
ones where it's like hey this is
President Obama chip in five 

1802
01:42:47,800 --> 01:42:50,500
bucks, you know, whatever to 
local stuff whatever. 

1803
01:42:51,200 --> 01:42:56,200
I will tell you much to my shock
in the two plus years. 

1804
01:42:56,200 --> 01:42:59,100
Almost three years since Donald 
Trump became president. 

1805
01:42:59,500 --> 01:43:01,900
I've gotten countless emails 
from those Democratic party 

1806
01:43:01,900 --> 01:43:07,500
accounts saying some version of 
chip into box, watch this live 

1807
01:43:07,500 --> 01:43:11,800
stream of this thing and then 
tripping, five bucks, whatever. 

1808
01:43:12,400 --> 01:43:15,200
I'm not sure that in. 
One of those emails since 

1809
01:43:15,200 --> 01:43:18,400
January 2017. 
I've gotten the following 

1810
01:43:18,900 --> 01:43:23,700
President Trump today. 
Demeaned the following countries

1811
01:43:24,000 --> 01:43:26,500
that probably is a lot of people
feeling down. 

1812
01:43:27,000 --> 01:43:30,200
Join us since you're in this ZIP
code, join us in Fort Greene 

1813
01:43:30,200 --> 01:43:34,200
Park in Brooklyn. 
This afternoon for a drum circle

1814
01:43:34,600 --> 01:43:36,300
and sing along. 
We're going to celebrate some of

1815
01:43:36,300 --> 01:43:39,100
the songs of those countries and
show solidarity with each other.

1816
01:43:39,800 --> 01:43:43,700
I'm not sure I have been invited
to any specific place at any A 

1817
01:43:43,708 --> 01:43:47,900
specific time ever by any of 
those Democratic party emails 

1818
01:43:48,200 --> 01:43:50,900
since Jerry 2017. 
I've been asked for quick online

1819
01:43:50,900 --> 01:43:53,100
transactions. 
I'm not sure. 

1820
01:43:53,100 --> 01:43:57,800
I've been invited to a, you 
know, a bar talk with people, 

1821
01:43:57,800 --> 01:44:01,000
I'm not sure. 
I've been invited to a picnic to

1822
01:44:01,500 --> 01:44:04,900
reflect on our own immigration 
stories and I see it. 

1823
01:44:04,900 --> 01:44:08,300
Now in the 2020 campaign, the 
rallies, you know, great 

1824
01:44:08,300 --> 01:44:12,000
rallies, great crowds, but our 
people being connected to each 

1825
01:44:12,000 --> 01:44:15,200
other actually being fused. 
Used together are people 

1826
01:44:15,400 --> 01:44:17,300
actually being turned into a 
movement. 

1827
01:44:17,300 --> 01:44:20,100
The people in the Civil Rights 
Movement, a generation ago, they

1828
01:44:20,100 --> 01:44:25,200
actually knew each other IRL. 
They were actually friends, many

1829
01:44:25,200 --> 01:44:27,000
of them. 
That's why they bailed each 

1830
01:44:27,000 --> 01:44:29,900
other out of jail or willing to 
die for each other in certain 

1831
01:44:30,000 --> 01:44:32,800
they were, actually they knew 
each other and I think there's 

1832
01:44:32,800 --> 01:44:35,400
been this real problem and with 
my generation the even younger 

1833
01:44:35,400 --> 01:44:38,500
generation where we've been, and
maybe it's like those golf 

1834
01:44:38,500 --> 01:44:40,100
courses. 
We've been sold a vision of 

1835
01:44:40,100 --> 01:44:41,900
joining that isn't joining at 
all. 

1836
01:44:42,600 --> 01:44:45,700
And we need to see through the 
golf course, so to speak. 

1837
01:44:45,900 --> 01:44:50,700
And really invent a new 
generation of joining and 

1838
01:44:50,700 --> 01:44:54,800
joining Technologies and joining
forms, and joining institutions,

1839
01:44:55,100 --> 01:44:59,200
and to actually be part of 
things and no longer just be a 

1840
01:44:59,200 --> 01:45:03,000
kind of mass clicking public. 
One of these days come to Flint 

1841
01:45:03,100 --> 01:45:04,400
with me. 
I would love to. 

1842
01:45:04,800 --> 01:45:06,000
Where'd you go to Ann Arbor, 
just? 

1843
01:45:06,000 --> 01:45:09,100
Yeah, yeah, I don't know if I 
ever made it 60 miles north. 

1844
01:45:09,100 --> 01:45:10,600
I think I. 
Yeah, I did a couple of times 

1845
01:45:10,600 --> 01:45:13,800
I've but, um, I just had this 
idea that if we if you and I 

1846
01:45:13,808 --> 01:45:17,400
just did a short film walking 
these golf courses. 

1847
01:45:18,300 --> 01:45:22,500
It's a great and use it to 
explain the larger idea in here.

1848
01:45:22,500 --> 01:45:23,900
What's the name of the course 
you over? 

1849
01:45:24,000 --> 01:45:26,100
Oh, I know that I can recite all
of them. 

1850
01:45:26,600 --> 01:45:30,700
There is mocked golf course. 
Of course, worth there's Pierce 

1851
01:45:31,200 --> 01:45:33,900
golf course. 
There's the Flint City. 

1852
01:45:33,900 --> 01:45:36,700
Golf Course, their Swartz Creek 
Golf Course. 

1853
01:45:36,900 --> 01:45:39,500
And I'm doing you guys, I'm 
remembering these, I'm lining it

1854
01:45:39,500 --> 01:45:42,700
up with the factory. 
Is that one's by the Factory. 

1855
01:45:42,700 --> 01:45:45,200
That's why the Chevy factory. 
That's why the AC spark plug 

1856
01:45:45,200 --> 01:45:47,400
Factory? 
That's all that's out there by 

1857
01:45:47,400 --> 01:45:54,300
the turn stud Factory and it's 
it is a meat now because flat 

1858
01:45:54,300 --> 01:45:58,700
has been through such hard times
and because because of the 

1859
01:45:58,700 --> 01:46:04,000
poisoning of the water you you 
know watering the golf course is

1860
01:46:04,000 --> 01:46:06,400
what you have to do kills the 
golf course. 

1861
01:46:07,100 --> 01:46:12,100
So so the city has had to 
abandon the majority of these 

1862
01:46:12,200 --> 01:46:15,700
He's at this point whether they 
still golf courses or then, I 

1863
01:46:15,700 --> 01:46:20,200
think there's one now that's 
still functioning as a golf 

1864
01:46:20,200 --> 01:46:22,200
course. 
It's still owned by the city to.

1865
01:46:22,200 --> 01:46:24,700
Here's the, here's the idea, you
and I should play around of 

1866
01:46:24,700 --> 01:46:26,300
diamond. 
Sounds like you are an actual 

1867
01:46:26,300 --> 01:46:28,000
golf player. 
I am not, I played like three 

1868
01:46:28,000 --> 01:46:30,000
times. 
Yeah, so it'll be that we have 

1869
01:46:30,300 --> 01:46:32,400
comedy in the movie 
intrinsically, really giving 

1870
01:46:32,400 --> 01:46:34,800
able to play. 
And me not being able to play, 

1871
01:46:34,800 --> 01:46:37,200
right? 
That'll be a nice part of. 

1872
01:46:37,200 --> 01:46:38,800
Okay, we'll just do a full round
of nine. 

1873
01:46:38,800 --> 01:46:41,600
I will just talk about these 
issues. 

1874
01:46:41,700 --> 01:46:46,500
Yes, Yeah, I'll playing this 
very lopsided game of golf. 

1875
01:46:46,500 --> 01:46:49,700
Yes, I love this idea. 
Yeah, and we won't get happen. 

1876
01:46:49,700 --> 01:46:51,800
We won't bet. 
I won't take any of your money, 

1877
01:46:53,200 --> 01:46:55,200
it's all. 
But at the end, I think we're 

1878
01:46:55,200 --> 01:46:58,500
really going to need a couple of
drinks because the, the, the, 

1879
01:46:58,500 --> 01:47:03,300
the, the story is fun and can be
told in this entertaining way. 

1880
01:47:03,300 --> 01:47:08,800
But ultimately, you see how so 
many of people's dad's, the way 

1881
01:47:08,800 --> 01:47:11,900
you're young, people talk about 
how they just can't stand going 

1882
01:47:11,900 --> 01:47:13,000
back. 
To their parents or their 

1883
01:47:13,000 --> 01:47:15,700
grandparents because they could 
box, news is on, you know, 18 

1884
01:47:15,700 --> 01:47:19,500
hours a day, but they didn't 
just get that. 

1885
01:47:19,500 --> 01:47:23,200
They just didn't happen one day.
There wasn't just something, you

1886
01:47:23,200 --> 01:47:25,300
know, no pun intended in the 
water. 

1887
01:47:25,700 --> 01:47:30,200
This was well, thought out by 
very smart people, who I'm sure 

1888
01:47:30,700 --> 01:47:32,200
thought they were doing a lot of
good. 

1889
01:47:32,700 --> 01:47:35,100
Some of your favorite NPR shows 
have been brought to you by the 

1890
01:47:35,100 --> 01:47:38,600
trash term a foundation. 
So, I mean, people, you know 

1891
01:47:38,600 --> 01:47:42,100
what's so deeply sad and ironic 
about that? 

1892
01:47:42,300 --> 01:47:45,600
As, you know, presumably, they 
went out and bought golf shirts 

1893
01:47:45,600 --> 01:47:49,000
that made them look a little 
bit, like a CEO and about the 

1894
01:47:49,008 --> 01:47:52,000
accoutrement of playing golf, 
and they may be imagined that 

1895
01:47:52,000 --> 01:47:53,400
they were golfing their way to 
the top. 

1896
01:47:53,400 --> 01:47:55,400
But I think when you understand 
the system, they were golfing 

1897
01:47:55,400 --> 01:47:57,400
their way to the bottom. 
That's right. 

1898
01:47:57,700 --> 01:47:59,400
That's right. 
And actually, there was a little

1899
01:47:59,400 --> 01:48:04,900
Golf Apparel section at the 
local gym, JC Penney store, 

1900
01:48:05,600 --> 01:48:07,900
where you could, you could, you 
could never afford a course what

1901
01:48:07,900 --> 01:48:10,500
the ritual wearing, but you 
could afford that the JCPenney 

1902
01:48:10,500 --> 01:48:13,600
discovered this Market. 
For at least the store in Flint.

1903
01:48:13,600 --> 01:48:16,500
Did you know? 
I was because literally 

1904
01:48:16,500 --> 01:48:19,700
especially the men there. 
Everybody if you worked in the 

1905
01:48:19,700 --> 01:48:23,500
factory, there's a pretty damn 
good chance you golfed and that 

1906
01:48:23,500 --> 01:48:27,500
was true for white and black 
General Motors Assembly line 

1907
01:48:27,500 --> 01:48:29,300
workers. 
Look this, this is the movie. 

1908
01:48:29,300 --> 01:48:31,500
The public needs. 
Okay. 

1909
01:48:32,000 --> 01:48:35,300
Boy, that was the easiest movie.
We've never really got to do a 

1910
01:48:35,300 --> 01:48:36,700
shoot. 
This is like, we just have to 

1911
01:48:36,700 --> 01:48:38,300
fill that we've just greenlit 
it. 

1912
01:48:38,300 --> 01:48:41,300
Yeah, once the snow melts, 
right, exactly. 

1913
01:48:41,700 --> 01:48:42,900
Thank you. 
So much. 

1914
01:48:42,900 --> 01:48:44,700
Thank you very much for doing 
the really, really enjoyed the 

1915
01:48:44,708 --> 01:48:45,400
conversation.