I want to say this to the television audience, I made my
mistakes but in all of my years of public life I have never
profited. Never profited from public
service. I've earned every cent and in
all of my years of public life, I have never obstructed Justice.
And I think too that I can say that in my years of public life
that I welcome, this kind of examination because people have
got to know whether or not their presidents a crook.
Well, I'm not a crook. I've earned everything I've got
so, as we Here on the day. The night before the impeachment
vote of Donald J. Trump on this historic night.
I thought of inviting someone on the podcast who was very much a
part of the abuse of office, on the part of President, Richard
Nixon, who was under investigation and going through
impeachment hearings back in 1974 and the house voted on
their articles of impeachment that included illegal and Us of
actions against my guest here today on the podcast.
And as a result of the house, committee voting in favor of
these articles within a number of days, Richard Nixon decided
he did not want to wait for the vote.
That was surely going to take place on the house floor and
remove him. Be the first president to be
removed from office because the Democrats had the Senate and He
was going to get convicted so he resigned, but my guest here
today, on the podcast, he was somebody who was a patriotic
American. He was a former Marine before
that he was born in Chicago grew up partly in Detroit.
Went to the Cranbrook school there and all my fellow
michigander, as we all know, Cranbrook parents had wanted him
to be a concert pianist and instead practically his mother
and his sister died. And that Point his life changed
in a profound way. So in 1954, he found himself
after having gone to I think Harvard and Oxford joining the
Marine Corps to, you know, do his bit to support the defense
of the country in upon, getting out of the Marine Corps
eventually worked for the Rand corporation, which is a was
hired Often by the Pentagon and others in the government, to do
analysis and other Research activities and he was hired to
do these research activities and eventually worked in the office
of the Secretary of Defense, under Lyndon Johnson, that man's
name was Robert McNamara and and the Rand Corporation, it also
undertaken a study, a research project to figure out.
Just, what happened? How did we get into Vietnam?
It was already a huge morass by this point by the time.
Now, we're talking about 1967 68, it was clear to everyone
that this was awful. Awful mistake, in a moral action
on the part of this country and there was a rising Rising tide
of opposition to the war in the United States.
And of course, obviously around the world, And my guest decided
that he could no longer have the American people.
His fellow Americans in the dark about the lies that they were
being told lies from there from there, very president not just
the secretary defense not just the Pentagon whatever but from
the president United States lying to the American people.
There was a time when the just the very thought that a
president would try to get away with these big lies would be so
abhorrent to people like my guest.
That there was a greater calling a greater duty to tell the
truth, to the American people tell the truth in this case
about why we were really in Vietnam and how was an
unwinnable war, and there were lives being lost at such an off.
I remember one week, I think Life Magazine printed the photos
of the 500 plus dad died, and we find reports of Americans had
died. That way thousands upon
thousands of Vietnamese. South Vietnamese, North
Vietnamese, eventually obviously cambodians lay oceans.
The statistics go anywhere from 2 million, Southeast, Asians, 24
million Southeast Asians who were killed in this war.
This war of are doing, and my guests, couldn't couldn't
participate in any longer. And as an act of conscience,
gave these documents to the New York Times and they were called
The Pentagon Papers. If you're old enough to remember
this, You remember it? Well, if you're, if you're young
should look this up, it was a, it was a powerful moment in an
American history and nobody knew which way things were going to
go. And as a result of my guests
doing this, Richard Nixon had formed a unit.
If you can believe this within the White House to do a number
of illegal activities, against His opponents, his what he
called his enemies. They were often anti-war people,
but they were of their wide variety of people that just
oppose Richard Nixon and his policies.
And, and so, this unit called the plumbers unit, consisted of
G, Gordon Liddy and Howard hunt in a number of others, and they
were ordered to break in to the psychiatrist's office of my
guest here today in over Labor Day in 1971.
To steal records so that they could discredit this individual
who had released the Pentagon papers and as a result of that
action, an action planned in the White House, imagine that
imagine breaking into a private citizens shrinks office to dig
up dirt on them. So as to discredit them and to
remember there's an election coming up the next year in 1972.
So this so basically to prime the pump for the election,
discredit an opponent, where have we heard this before?
You don't have to go back any further than this past July But
this happened, this happened back in 1971.
And as a result, when the impeachment vote came up the
plumbers unit this, these illegal activities, including
against my guest here today. We're part of the impeachment of
Richard Nixon and passed, the house Judiciary Committee at
that time and I thought really who better to have on and thank
God, he is still with us, he is still active, he is still
fighting the fight for all of us.
He is, you know, in the pantheon of great Americans that have
affected our history in the last hundred years, you know, you can
name the names from Rosa Parks to To so many others that
because of a simple action they took as a citizen as a civilian,
we actually got to be a little bit better of a country but it
doesn't happen without the struggle.
It doesn't happen without people like my guest here today.
Mr. Daniel Ellsberg Daniel welcome to my podcast.
Let me zoom in here. Michael, it's honored to be
mentioned in the same sentence with Rosa Parks.
When this one Happened to you. I was in 12th grade in high
school. So I'm very, I have a very clear
memory of the whole thing, but I want to point out that this
particular thing will first of all, you expose the truth by
sharing these papers. And of course, the New York
Times was ordered by the judge to cease publishing the truth
about Vietnam and these papers. And I think that they were shut
down. At least this part of them,
publishing the story. Was shut down for a number,
maybe two weeks, something like that.
And and in that time, and they made a movie about this, I think
you're so go called the post Katharine, Graham in the
Washington Post decided to just start publishing it.
Well, the times was under under, under the order of the Court,
not to publish, they started publishing and then they were
shut down and And then if I remember the story correctly,
you and your wife went into hiding because you need at that
point, the, the federal government was looking for you.
And during those weeks, you gave it to another 15 newspapers
across the country, so that everybody would have the so
everybody and they all started polishing it and it's just like,
am I do I have that correct. The, the president was saying,
the Attorney General said that the publication of these
thinkers who was Immediate hurt the National Security of the
United States during wartime. And that the people anybody
publishing, this was directly hurting the National Security
and yet 17 newspapers who looked at those documents that I gave
them and with the help of other people, by the way it looked and
said, we don't agree with that. We think the public needs to
know this and we don't see that this top secret history.
Is going to hurt the United States at all, but on the
country will help it by letting us understand what's going on
and they defied the president and the Attorney General.
There were four injunctions the Boston Globe after the
Washington Post and the New York Times, the Boston Globe was
enjoying the st. Louis Post-Dispatch centroid,
eventually they gave up because with eventually Seventeen papers
involved, one of the prosecutors said, well, it's like hurting.
Bees. We can't, we can't stop this but
then it went to the Supreme Court.
But there was a, this was in effect, a wave of Civil
Disobedience across the country by newspapers, one after
another. Which as you know Michael are
not sort of public interest pro bono organization.
They're not non-profit ngos exactly.
They were all facing risks of prosecution and risks to their
financial. Your interests.
And I don't think there's been anything like that in any
country that I've ever heard of where.
So many important institutions simply defined, the executive,
branch and risk, communication, and risk, conjunctions to put
out the truth. So it was, it was a very
admirable period which to my surprise, they don't
particularly celebrate, when the anniversaries come along the
post in the times tend to Congratulate themselves
reasonably for what they did. But the other 15 newspapers
don't seem to recognize the anniversaries, and they really
should because we need to remember that period, we need it
right now when they and all their colleagues are being
called enemies of the people and they rise to that challenge and
protect our democracy as they did, then toilet themselves
become channels for government handouts as in so many other.
Countries. So this this thing that happened
with, okay, so they, you know, obviously the next
Administration they're Furious that this has happened.
Most of the is I remember the Pentagon papers were showing all
the mistakes and all the lies that happen from the early
years, from actually, from Truman, through Eisenhower
Kennedy, specially Johnson, but Nixon had only been in office.
So, you know, a couple Of years and yet took it upon himself to
make sure he brought you down and they had if I am.
I correct that there was even an order to assault.
You their interest is not in going to my psychiatrist office
to get set. Go in on something to get
information to discredit me. I'm already facing 12 felony
counts, and whatever, right? For what I had actually done,
you know, copy these papers. So there was no question of fact
involves your, I acknowledge that from the beginning.
So discrediting me was not going to affect the outcome of the
trial and the outcome of the trial.
In fact, was it what makes it was concerned about very much.
Anyway, what they wanted was information to Blackmail me with
to threaten me with revealing so that I would stop saying, what?
I know to be Nixon. Currents, Energy.
Now, the Pentagon papers ended in 68 before Nixon came in, so
they didn't incriminate Nixon except for his participation
under Eisenhower. They didn't say much about Nixon
at that time. So he could easily say, well
this was the Democrats who do this, not my policy, I was
saying on the basis of inside knowledge, that he was
continuing essentially the same lies and the same threats of
escalation except he was increasing them.
He hoped essentially to win in Vietnam, by threatening more
than the Democrats had ever. Threaten namely nuclear weapons
against North Vietnam, which are directly.
Threats can directly conveyed and for which plan is for
nuclear attacks existed known to me, by people, who would
actually seen them also threats of invading Laos and Cambodia
which he eventually did do not the nuclear invading her
Vietnam, 1988 fall right involved of confronting Soviet
shipping among other things. And basically escalating the war
very much in order to get the North Vietnamese to make
concessions that would amount to our winning.
The war namely to allow us to take our troops out.
But to continue airpower air support to General queue.
The alleged for the president. For public president of South
Vietnam, our puppet right, well, had put mix it into office,
basically, by doing what Trump is accused of doing.
I should say, with the Russians are accused of doing colluding
with a presidential candidate Nixon to get him elected.
And they did that by refusing Johnson, the invitation, which
they earlier accepted to go to Paris and Negotiations that
might end the war and Nixon persuaded to you.
Not to go just as just before the election and that pews
refusal to go did. Stop the increase in the polls
and Hubert Humphrey had been experiencing right then.
He was even with Nixon at that point and led to exams winning
by a very close margin after which makes it was indebted, in
fact, really controlled by to you in a way because You could
have revealed at any point, the impeachable acts of Nixon, which
Lyndon Johnson described as treason in question whether it
was treason it certainly was an impeachable act at that point.
So for that, the war continued in the Nixon Administration and
then following in the Ford Administration, till 1975, six
years later. And before 73, another 20,000
Americans had their names on the Vietnam, memorial and half a
million or more Vietnamese had died in order to prevent Nixon
from being impeached. Basically by Revelation by to
that he had colluded, to win an election with a foreign power
earlier. So they the energy mother
Institute to right now is for the Striking.
So essentially what you're saying is Is that they wanted
those psychiatric files on you to use as they hoped.
They would find things that that I wouldn't want out.
And they could keep me from repeating or saying that Nixon
was making nuclear threats that he intended to continue the war.
The war was like to get larger above all.
They feared that I had documents right?
And I didn't know I had documents, but not what they
feared and I could Head. Because there were people who
left the administration when some of that is Collision, did
occurred very creditably resigned, from the National
Security Council over the invasion of Cambodia, but they
didn't take documents with them or give them to me or anybody
else is one of those people, Roger Moore's, who Deputy to
Kissinger said later. It was the greatest shame of his
length that they have not revealed documents.
At that time. He said we should have thrown
open the safe. Ifs and screamed bloody murder
because that's exactly what it was.
I had given me documents like that and they had to keep me
quiet. And that's why they later
brought people up. When they hadn't found material
in dr. Fielding's office with which to
Blackmail me. They then brought a dozen Cuban
Americans veterans with the Bay of Pigs on.
May 3rd, 1972. To the steps of the Capitol with
orders to incapacitate me too. Really misses you in a week.
When on the tapes Kissinger and Nixon are discussing possible
use of nuclear weapons, Nixon is favoring them and we're afraid
that I would have documents at that point that would forecast
that and they had to shut me up entirely.
Wow. So in addition to them, knowing
that you knew you had information about what Nixon was
really up to and fearing that you had even more information or
documents which you didn't have. But they feared that you might
buy a breaking into the psychiatrist's office, dr.
Fielding they would somehow be able to have hold some sway over
you and control you with whatever information they were
going to find are not in his office.
And as a result of this break-in and when it became knowledge, a
public knowledge. I think through John Dean.
Dean has been told by the effective head of the plumbers
at go krogh. By the way, they were called
plumbers because they thought of themselves as stopping leaks and
essentially, that was leaked by me.
That's what they were. That's what they were afraid of
the breakout of your psychiatrists office dr.
Feeling though, occurred almost really not, not quite a full
year, but it about nine months before the break-in at
Watergate. That's right.
They later actually the effort to incapacitate Totally, which
wasn't carried out because they became it's a longer story, but
they became worried at the time. If they were being set up quote
as Patsy's to be caught and they decided to throw that one, but
that varied, they were taken around to their reconnoiter
their next Target, which was the Watergate hotel, where the water
getting offices, where the Democratic National Committee
was, and weeks after that, a couple weeks after the attempt
to incapacitate me, When carried through, they did go into the
Watergate offices in them. They weren't caught that night.
And then, to repair Taps bugs that hadn't functioned that
first night. They went in again a second
time. And this time, they were caught
and they were being run essentially by hunted Liddy, the
very people who had engineered the burglary of my psychiatrist
office earlier. So in other words when they were
caught They now had blackmail on Vixen because they knew of these
earlier crimes, actually it's not even proved although it has
been alleged that Nixon knew of the actual break into, you know,
beforehand of the break into the Watergate.
But these people knew about his earlier crimes directly against
me, which word ordered out of the Oval Office.
So they had to keep them quiet and by giving more than a
hundred thousand dollars and since Liam, Bribery money to get
them to perjure themselves in front of the grand jury and say
that they did not know of any previous crimes.
This was further obstruction of justice Dean told the president,
it was a cancer on the presidency was getting further
and further they had to lie to conceal, other lies and
eventually, because Dean brought that out, it did eventually get
to my court because the trial was still going on and they were
obliged to inform the court. And that came out and then hunt
in others. Reverse their perjury and
revealed things about the wiretapping of meeting the five
psychological profiles and the joined the CIA had done against
me, which was against their Charter to do on an American
citizen and other. Other crimes came up there, this
is all being coordinated out of the White House hunt and Liddy,
they're in there. I think their offices there were
Wherever they were meeting in the old executive office,
building all part of the White House complex there and and this
would eventually all come together with all the other
things they were doing so called plumbers unit as part of one of
the Articles of impeachment, the abuse of power, Nixon's, abuse
of power. So, here we are.
Now, how are you feeling tonight?
I mean, here we are. We're on the eve of this
impeachment vote. You are a historic figure that
that the actions that you had. Really taken to tell the truth
about Vietnam and it resulting in this abuse of you first of
all the break-in your psychiatrist office but also the
plan to incapacitate you and then the cover up the
obstruction of justice. Just as, by the way, one of the
comes to the impeachment here against President Trump, which
will almost certainly go through tomorrow in the house is
essentially cover-up. In of Justice, which he went
through, which Trump organized in response to a truth teller to
a whistleblower people, whistleblower, like you and in
return to keep that from being investigated Trump made,
absolutely unprecedented orders of cover-up, that no government
official could respond to subpoenas by the, by the
Congress in clear Defiance of the Constitution and separation
of powers, the powers of congress here.
To investigate and impeach, he's in effect.
It's like rolling up the 82nd Airborne around the White House
and saying, come and get me, right?
A little monster film or something you write hurting
people with great consequences if they told the truth as
ordered by Congress. So what's that like for you
today today? Tonight, here we are.
And it's it's it's not exactly Deja Vu, but it's kind of a
must-have whatwhat is going through you right now.
Well, there is a difference in the situation which is that the
Senate is certain almost, you know, the Republicans in the
Senate to defy the law, to defy the Constitution, to defy the
evidence of their own senses as to what's happened here and vote
for equipment. So he will almost certainly be
acquitted of this indictment. Which is what the impeachment a
month to an indictment, and he will go into the election
claiming that he's been totally exonerated indicating by the
way, a very dangerous precedent. It pretty much comes close to
saying that a president whose party controls the Senate, which
determines conviction is above the law, right?
Right thing, he wants Foreign Affairs and domestic.
Affairs. If the president can get away
with this, he can definitely get away with anything of his own
party controls the Senate. And that means that we don't
have a government of law. He is in effect a king.
So yeah, so the big difference obviously between tonight,
tomorrow and back in, 1974 is remember what a real difference
in both parties from then. Is this that going to Another
indictment impeachment. A number of Clinton.
I think 17 Democrats voted for the inquiry impeachment inquiry
into Clinton and number were would have voted for impeachment
at that point. What makes in faith in led to
his resignation, was the Republicans in the Senate are
ten count it. We're going to vote against you
because the evidence is so clear.
Now, that obviously simply can't happen now, For the simple
reason that the Republicans are proving absolutely impervious to
evidence and to their obligations, to uphold the
Constitution. How did this happen?
How did you, how did we go from a time when there were
Republicans, who told Nixon to stand down?
Yes, we are going to vote to convict you, if you don't resign
that, that we're that after this vote tomorrow, and it goes to
the Senate after the holidays, that the that the Senate is
already made clear. That it may be a near unanimous
vote, amongst the Republicans in the Senate to ignore the
evidence to ignore the Constitution.
And just just line up like, Lemmings behind Donald Trump.
And it's not enough to move Trump out of office, which we
won't do by impeachment and conviction, but it's not enough
to move them out of office by election, which is absolutely
essential for reasons. I hope we go into But that's not
enough. The Senate has to be changed.
The house has to be change and really all these are necessary
conditions for survival in terms of our climate climate change,
in terms of our democracy, I would say it's essential, it's
not enough because the Democrats have not done nearly enough in
the past and I they won't do enough on these issues in the
future, but at least they won't be leaving in exactly the wrong
direction. Richmond as the Republicans are
right now. So okay, so let's Jump Ahead a
month or so, the Senate has not convicted Trump.
He claims a great Victory. They, they try to slam the
Democrats for trying to, you know, overthrow the king.
What do we do, then? Where are we at them?
We do have an election. Obviously, there is still an
election, yet scheduled, this is correct.
Okay, I'll give you. Here's the thought that will not
be received. Well I suspect by many in your
audience but I'm going to tell you the truth of what I think
are what I worry about there is more than a chance that Trump
will get reelected. I see Biden as a ticket to
Trump. That is that?
Yes, and I and not just by those who will vote third party, I
think a Centrist somebody like Biden.
People will stay home. Yeah, yes.
Yes. Young people will stay home.
They will not vote for a third party.
That's really I should have put it that way.
You might go to one of the two. Yeah, yeah, we think probably
will be just to stay home but that will be enough.
I asked you what are we going to do?
When the Senate doesn't convicted Trump?
And you said, well, there's an election coming up and that is
very true. We can vote in the primaries and
you should vote for the person who most Most aligns with you
don't, don't be playing. Some kind of weird game has of
Chess, just vote for who you like the best and then, and then
let that person hopefully win if not get behind.
Whoever the person is that wins the nomination.
Yes. Bernie Sanders was criticized by
many people for doing that in 2016 and that just revealed to
me, that people are my son and left us can be as much in denial
as people on the right. Or anybody else because to say
he was wrong to support Hillary at that point, is to fail to see
to refuse to see the Trump was even worse on balance than
Hillary. No, Bernie did the right thing
burning. I'm aware of all.
I accept all of the left criticisms of the democratic
party and of Hillary, specifically, and of Obama.
And most of these candidates right now certainly is Biden,
tremendous, shortcomings and far from adequate from what we need
at all and nobody's perfect, you know?
Even from any particular point of view, even even Bernie
Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, have haven't taken on the
military-industrial complex. Hello.
Bernie has talked about it more than almost anybody else or
nuclear weapons various things. But, you know, they really are a
new voice. I will be Certainly I would say
I will be back in Bernie Sanders and remember is Michael, as you
know, it's not just who you vote for who won votes for in the
voting booth that really doesn't matter that much.
When you come down to one, vote does not determine elections.
It's how you use your activity, your influence your audience.
If you have one your voice and especially in the swing States
under our current system, remember I really and I think
you agree would like very much to change that currency.
Distance. So the electoral system college
does not rule and everybody's will count in the different
states and you won't have swing states that exists.
That will not be a phenomena at that point, but it is very much
now. So there will be 4 to 10 states
that will be critical here. And it will be essential to
elect a non, not Trump, whoever it is even by grief, we could do
it. Because bad shorter short, as he
is in terms of what we need. It's not Trump.
He will not be trying to destroy civilization in terms of
climate, which Trump is trying to do in effect, right?
How do we? But how it's amazing to me that
you maintain this level of optimism, you know what other
hand, where did you? I hear you?
Sing. That we still have.
We still have elections? Yeah, we still have a chance.
We have at least a chance by next November to stop the
madness. The current Madness.
Yes, of Donald J Trump. Yes, that is a, is a
possibility, not necessarily a reality.
I agree with you. I think of the election were
held today. Whoever the Democrat would be
would win the popular vote by more votes than Hillary wanted
in 16, but could still lose the For college to Trump.
Yeah. Because his loyal supporters
have not deserted him, they will be out in force for him and he
went to see that's not to their credit, really?
I have to say yes. A lot of those people are
abused. They have been oppressed.
They have been ignored by the Democrats as much as find
anybody they've been lied to they've been left in the Lurch
etc. Etc.
That's all true. They are a victim when they feel
that way and With basis to respond to that, by electing.
Donald Trump is not to their creditors.
I don't see no around that now. And we are talking about white
people, I am the Trump demographic, I am an angry white
guy over the age of 50 with a high school education.
So that so I know these guys because I grew up with them, I
still know them back home here and I understand why they're
upset. I understand why even though
they some of them don't agree with Trump saw him as the human
Molotov cocktail that they could throw into the system to just
blow things up because their lives have been so miserable for
the last 10, 20 years, I get it, I get that.
But what I say to them is this, you know, who else has it and
miserable black people, black African Americans.
So as as much as Black America has been punked on You know, as
much as they've had to go through or Native Americans who
has it worse than them. And yet, what do they do when
they come out to vote? They vote for the Democrat and
woohoo. Democrat, every time they don't
say oh, you know, I'm nobody's done anything for me.
So I'm either going to stay home or I'm going to vote the third.
I'm going to, I'm going to. Yeah, I don't care if Trump gets
in there ninety-eight percent of black women.
Voted against Trump voted for him.
Most of, obviously, for Hillary, they voted for Hillary and yet,
are they not as abused as lunch bucket?
Joe from Macomb County in Michigan?
I would say, yes, I would say they've had to go through the
struggle that that poor white people have to go through.
But what you know, what is why do black people just say to hell
with this. You know I'm going to vote for
Trump on his that. How does that argument?
Go over. In other words, heavy and not
very well, very well, but I don't care because I'm going to
tell them to quit whining. Quit whining and do the right
thing, and I agree with you them.
And I say this, look, I realize the Democrats.
If you're living in Detroit, if you're living in, Flint, you
know where the Democrats, why are we in year, five?
Or whatever? It is of, the Flint poisoning,
we have a Democratic governor now in.
Sing Michigan where you know so I get it, I totally get it.
I'm every bit as pissed off. But we have to think clearly
here and not just be run by are legitimate emotional state.
Because we have to remove somebody said this to me here
the other day. It's like the body politic of
America right now is a very, very sick, very ill patient and
Trump is the boy Boil on that, on that diseased body but that's
what he's just the yes Lance the boil get rid of the boil but you
still got the the disease body. You've got to take care of.
And the reason why Bernie is number one in all the polls with
latino voters number two, with average Americans after buying
right now, and that's changing more and more, you know, Bernie
is has really risen with African-American voters in
recent polls and that's because they know he's the real deal.
He will not turn on them, he will not be bought off and they
know that. And that's why they will be
excited about voting for him. I feel very strongly about the,
okay, and with you, you mentioned to michiganders and
said that I went to Cranbrook, which is, of course, very rich.
Boys school, which we were the sons of the Roger.
The Rogers that you turned against the sons of the auto
manufacturers, Jim Rogers math. I was a scholarship student full
scholarships through and in fact, Act, when I graduated, I
spent the summer working at the Dodge plant number three in
Hamtramck because I was expecting a life as a labor,
organizer or labor or labor Economist, which is what I
studied in college. And I was very familiar with the
Memorial Day Massacre Republic Theater in Chicago and the
battle of the overpass in with Walter Reuther and so forth.
And that's where I was headed. I joined the UAW.
I was 17 had to get my father out.
Wow. But yeah.
So just for people listening that the Dodge Factory in
Hamtramck. Michigan, Hamtramck is a city
within the city limits of Detroit.
So it's like right? It's a hardcore town that exists
within the city limits of Detroit and that factory
experiencing right now. Very bad hearing problems.
Really got worse. It started in the in the Press
shop in Hamtramck, which If you've been in a Press Room, you
know, where they punch out that the big things, the tops and
yeah, brutal, the sides. And so, for the scream of those
machines, I've never really recovered from I, in fact, I was
very interested to see that the first place that the UAW,
bargained on conditions, not just salary, you know,
retirement, whatever. But conditions was Dodge plant
number three, where they used to wear hearing, you know, phones
over your ears of Muffler. Over the years at all.
Now they do. So I might hearing is really
damaged. Now, I'm sorry about that and
I'm sorry that Detroit and Hamtramck is his responsible for
this. None of them.
I became a cold warrior as did a lot of the unions.
In fact at that time and when do you mean a different direction?
But certainly I didn't imagine in.
Ever the best thing I can say for the Democratic party now is
that it has Alexander your costume AOC you in it and has
Bernie Sanders who has Elizabeth Warren.
And I must say it didn't dream in 2016.
At the beginning of the campaign that an old Jewish socialist,
could come close to getting that nomination or had a real track
and getting it. I don't think burning himself
imagine that at the beginning and no, he didn't.
Me of taking over the Democratic party which is not an overnight
thing, it takes long. Organizing and long work in
emulation of what the right wing did the right wing youth in
particular, I think Young Americans for Freedom.
So they took over the Republican party after the defeat of their
Kennedy Goldwater in 1964. He was totally destroyed lost,
you know, everything. But a few things in the South 16
years later. They had taken over the
Republican party to the point where they got one, a Reagan in
1980. Well, we don't have in a way 16
years to do something about climate, but the idea of working
politically to change the possibilities in this country
isn't, is the challenge to us. We can't, we can't go on as of
now, and getting either Sanders or Warren in, which will be very
hard. Once again, Stitch, I would say
we need that and going to try to do our best even if it even if
it's a long shot to do that because as Noam Chomsky puts it
Republican party, today is the most dangerous, political
organization in human history and sounds almost necessarily
crazy hyperbolic. How can one say anything like
that? And when he referring to is the
fact that he says, They are doing their absolute best
monolithically to favor, the short-run interests of
ExxonMobil and others and put fossils foot CO2 into the
atmosphere as fast as they can. And right huh there's never been
anything like that. We've never faced a conscious
challenge like that ever. That's so true.
I want to ask you just before we close here.
Something about A documentary. It's actually my favorite
documentary of all time. It's called hearts and Minds by
the director, Peter Davis. You appear prominently in this
documentary. This is now this was me back in
1975 76 and and he interviews you just before the end of the
war. Okay.
So yeah, I think he probably started this back in 72 73 the
project itself. Oh no it was done in in 72 73.
Yeah, and they came out and 75 I believe and won the Oscar for
best documentary. It's no surprise that in a very
poor country. You can find people who will
wear for in uniforms what is always surprised us?
What we've never been willing to predict or understand?
Is that the Vietnamese communist leadership can find enough
people to live in the tunnels fight for nothing, wearing Rag
and shorts year after year, under the American bombs a war
in which one side is entirely financed and equipped and
supported by foreigners. Is not a Civil War.
The only foreigners in that country where the foreigners we
financed in the first part of the war and the foreigners, we
were in the second half of the water.
Basically we didn't want to acknowledge the scale of our
involvement there. We didn't want to realize that
it was our war because that would have been to say that
every casualty on both sides was a casualty caused by our policy.
Question used to be, might it be possible that we were on the
wrong side and in Vietnamese War, but we weren't on the wrong
side, we are the wrong side. Wow.
So that is maybe one of the most profound statements I've ever
seen in a documentary that we are the wrong side.
It's so hard for us as Americans to wrap our heads around the
idea. How could we possibly be the
wrong side? Why we're for truth and Justice
and the American way and we delivered democracy to your
doorstep But the truth was something very different, a
truth that you exposed with the Pentagon papers and and it's
such a moment in this film. When I saw in the theater with
an audience back in back in the mid-70s it was like a mallet
coming out of the screen and whacking me and everybody else
in the audience. It was so powerful.
And what have we learned now? All these years later, All these
almost 50 years later when we're talking right now, just a week
or two, after the revelation of the so-called Afghanistan papers
and which it turns out that the highest officials in the
government military and civilians were asking, well, the
Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld missing, I can't see who the
good guys are here or loot the general in charge of the area.
Basically saying, you know, we didn't have the foggiest idea
what we were doing it again. Then only the good guys and who
are the bad guys, but they weren't facing up ever.
They were recognizing that we were in those endless.
Stalemates that we were making no progress that the statements
about progress that we were all these same people were making to
the American public and the president is making we're false
that wasn't happening. And then go on again, not one of
them. I think reveal that at the time
but what they haven't fixed up to is our role there, Which is
foreign Invaders, foreign occupiers and none of these
sides on the thing we're terribly real, whoa, you know,
admirable in all respects who is in effect, but there were some
people there, who really had, no right to be there.
Killing people, and that was us what they hadn't faced up to was
an imperial rule here and Empire, where we thought we had
the right to we make other other.
Nations in to decide regime change, in regime changes,
virtual definition of empire. Now the notion that we have a
right to go on killing Afghans for whatever reason protecting
women in there and who need protecting but do whatever that
we have a right to be killing Afghans right now and losing
some Americans but in a 10 or more 21 rate killing Afghans is
something American people. Haven't faced up to and that's
true elsewhere and in Yemen right now where's that?
We're supporting the Saudis, giving them weapons selling
them, weapons servicing their planes refueling their planes,
giving them Target information, which they largely use to kill
civilians in Yemen and to blockade them and produce famine
syrup. Ricky's were both houses of
Congress actually voted to cut off the Aid by the Way.
An effort happened to be led by Senator Bernie Sanders, but he
got actual votes that had never happened since from Republican
field in a since 1973. When Congress could off the
votes for Vietnam, that was the first time in history where I
think any legislature had cut off funding for ongoing war on
that time and the second time except that trump vetoed it.
So enormous crime against the piece is Going on right now
crime against humanity in Yemen, right us.
And that doesn't Define us as the good guys.
It just now we, the idea that we support democracy in the third
world, we former Colonial world, the underdeveloped world is
false. It's a myth that I believed in,
for much of my life. And finally came to Solomon
sudden certainly wasn't sure in Vietnam, but it was really
later. After that, I came to see that
that was not an aberration that. Basically we more often than not
support dictatorship schools to authoritarian regimes because
they suit, our corporate interests are economic interests
better than a democracy better than country with unions and
peasant organizations do and with welfare states of any kind.
So that it's simply false We are the good guys when it comes to
that part of the world that half of the world and that's still
true, it's what we're seeing. Now, the Afghan papers, show
that these people I think never did come to understand that even
though they knew we weren't winning.
But you know, we're American people have been willing to
tolerate killing foreigners from the air without too many
American casualties in definitely.
And that's what you just seem a 18 years in Afghanistan without
changing both parties. It can go on for another 18
years and then let's hope not. I think I just also just want to
I don't know if I've ever done this in person or have told you
this over the phone or whatever. So, just a I just I'm just
saying I was I don't know if I've ever mentioned this to you,
or thank you just outright. Thank you, personally, thank you
for what you've done for, what you did for the when you look at
what's happened. Now to Chelsea, Manning to Ed
Snowden. Yeah, I mean, it's what they did
was really, no different than what you did.
And you are considered an American hero and I don't
understand why these two individuals don't get the scent.
But boy, I'll tell you, you know, they want to lock them up
and throw the key away and the message to other possible
whistleblowers is, don't you even think about taking
documents that will tell the American people?
The truth. Well, the Moreland who those two
people are heroes of mine. And and at the same time, I
identify them with them. What does that mean?
Well, they represent what they did represents my, What I've
Done best, the best part of my life, which is not the whole of
My Life by any means. But I know when in, like, Ed
Snowden very much, but I admired, I don't know, Chelsea
speak of, but I know them as people, whose example, I would
like, To see others phone and my newest hero and as much as them
actually is 16 years old. Greta totenberg my God, I think
this point will interest you, isn't it?
Made very often she's known for leading inspiring demonstrations
all over the world, 1.6, 1.2 million.
I think it was in the beginning of the year and in October 4 to
6 million people. Young people demonstrated
against the apathy, the inactivity on climate change,
but they demonstrated on a weekday on Friday.
They took off from school and we called the situation as she did
when she was doing it alone as a strike, that's what it is.
I don't think we're going to change the world here and change
their policies, without being willing to use.
The sentence against but very specifically strikes, general
strike. And that's what she is leading
right now. And as I say my own interest in
the in the labor movement that's how as you know the labor the
your car industry was centrally organized by sit-down strikes
occupying buildings which were held by the Supreme Court to be
illegal eventually. But by that time and I'm violent
inside they just occupied the place and they had organized
pretty much the Auto industry at that point.
And we're going to have to show that kind of willingness to
paint personal costs and to take a risk and to change our lives
directly you asked whether I was an optimist, here's the kind of
optimist I am great at Winburn said to a parliament recently, I
saw the quote in there and transcript Tri-Cities Which one
it was? She listed all the things that
had to be done to avert catastrophic climate change and
she said, I don't believe for a second that you're going to do
any of these things but I hope I'm wrong and I realized when I
read that that's my hope. I don't see a likely way out of
the situation we've created here giving me strength of the
institutions. We're facing the
military-industrial complex, the fossil fuel industry, Exxon
places like that, the bank's, I don't see how we get behind
them, but I hope I'm wrong. And that's not an idle hope
because I've often been wrong in the past, I've been wrong.
So that's my hope. We've got a chance, it's not
impossible, just the other day at caught 25, which Lele climate
conference when she gave a terrific.
Speech and follow my. I don't think she is vote
directly inspired this. But a lot of people rushed the
stage young people, and occupied it for a while and they were
chanting. We are unstoppable and change is
possible. Another world.
And so they said another world is possible.
It's true, it's possible. It's not possible.
Yes, that's what we've got to work with and It's worth it,
because the stakes are everything, the stakes in the
climate area and nuclear are everything.
So, it is worth our utmost efforts without violence.
I would say, truthfully, but with shelf risk and
self-sacrifice, it's, we have a chance of enlarging that
possibility, and keeping it all going.
I'm with you. I'm with you all the way with
that. I feel every bit of the dish.
Fair in the first part of what you said that, that we are
probably doomed at this point, but but the one hope, is that if
people get active. Now strike.
Now fight. Now, we have that chance.
Why would we not take that chance?
Who would sit idly by at this point?
You've been that inspiration, Greta is now that inspiration
and we need to take take that and run with it.
Absolutely, absolutely. Daniel Ellsberg I can't thank
you enough here on the eve of this impeachment.
Vote to have you with us. You were part of the reason that
Nixon was in the process of being impeached, 45 years ago.
This year, you're still with us. You're still fighting strong.
We love you. Thank you for being on my second
podcast. It's a it's a real pleasure.
Thank you shanz likely because you are using your life, you
exemplify right livelihood very much does films her powerful and
have the real chance of bringing about change no guarantee, but
no better chance, and thank you for those.
Well, thank you. And thank to everyone listening.
We thank you. And and we, we invite you to be
part of this, if you're not already.
Always remember as I say to everybody, there's more of us
than there are of them. Don't ever forget that we have
power. We have it in our hands and a
lot of us, I think just don't know it, but it's there and it
needs to be used and use now ASAP.
So thank you. Thank you.
Daniel Ellsberg and that's our second podcast here, with Rumble
with Michael Moore and the past few days.
However, it has become evident to me That I no longer have a
strong enough political base in the Congress, the justify
continuing that effort. I would have preferred to carry
through to the Finish. Whatever the personal Agony, it
would have involved. And my family unanimously urged
me to do. So But the interest of the
nation, must always come before any personal considerations from
the discussions. I've had with Congressional and
other leaders. I have concluded.
That because of the Watergate matter, I might not have the
support of the Congress that I would consider necessary to back
the very difficult decisions and carry out the duties of this
office. And the way the interests of the
nation a require, I have never been a quitter.
I have never been a quitter.