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Isn't it rich? 
Are we? 

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Joker. 
Joker. 

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It may be for me the movie of 
the year. 

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Because while there are many 
many actually very good movies 

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this year and we'll talk about 
them here. 

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Before the end of the year, 
there was no movie where I 

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needed to go for a very long 
walk after the movie. 

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It's So effective me in such a 
profound way Joker, starring 

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Joaquin, Phoenix and directed by
Todd Phillips. 

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Who is my guest today? 
On my podcast. 

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Rumble, with Michael Moore. 
Thank you for listening. 

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Todd Phillips is an amazing 
director and he's directed all 

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kinds of movies from 
documentaries, to The Hangover 

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series, hilarious comedies. 
And And now, this the kind of 

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film you really haven't seen 
since Stanley Kubrick back it's 

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that profound in its in its 
intent and ability to grab the 

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audience in in such a way that, 
you know, this is a piece of 

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art. 
Set very much in the times, in 

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which we live. 
It's a brave piece of 

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filmmaking. 
If you haven't seen it, it's 

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nothing about really what you 
heard about perhaps it's, it's 

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if it's the kind, if you don't, 
if you don't go to Batman movies

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or comic book movies, that's 
fine. 

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This isn't, this is a movie for 
you. 

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And I don't want anybody to miss
out on this movie and that's why

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I wanted to add on my show 
today. 

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It's going to run a little long.
It's going to run about 90 

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minutes, but I have to tell you,
I just I listen to it. 

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And, you know, we have a policy 
here of not cutting things out. 

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We want you to hear everything 
in the Raw, unedited uncensored.

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And but this conversation I 
thought was an important one to 

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listen to Now, the first half 
hour of it isn't even about 

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Joker. 
It's about Todd Phillips, and 

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how he became Todd Phillips, but
it's a fascinating story, 

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especially if you're a young 
person who wants to be a 

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filmmaker, maybe you're in 
school, maybe, maybe you're out 

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of school. 
He didn't go to school, like me,

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you just you love the movies. 
How did he get to the point 

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where he made Joker, that's the 
first half hour and then, at 

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around the 30-minute Mark, we 
get into talking about Joker. 

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And what this film is really 
about the struggles, he had to 

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go through to get it, made the, 
in the days, leading up to its 

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release the at the absolute 
belief that he and Joaquin had 

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that they were doomed because of
all the Press about what The 

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Press was saying, the film was 
about that. 

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It's just a fascinating 
insightful. 

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Look at how a movie like this 
even gets made. 

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And that's the that's the sixth 
60 Minutes. 

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The of after these opening 30 
minutes, it's just amazing. 

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And all I asked really to is 
that you definitely make it 

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listen to the last half hour of 
this. 

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It's one of the best discussions
I've ever had either in any of 

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my movies or here in this 
podcast, Studio that I built in 

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my apartment. 
It's Todd Phillips gets into 

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talking about why we really do 
this, why we need to do it in a 

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time like this, The 
responsibility of artists to 

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stand up to fight to say 
something. 

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To be of substance, all of this 
hot. 

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So it was don't miss the last 
half hour of this. 

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And I think I'll just leave it 
at that and we'll get, right, 

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we'll get right to it. 
As we begin our discussion about

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what is humor and comedy and 
satire and and who are the 

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people that bring us? 
Bring it to us. 

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I'm really glad you're you've 
tuned in to this. 

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We've done this now for a week. 
This podcast to just start it 

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and they reaction has been 
overwhelming over the weekend. 

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We went to number one on the 
charts on the podcast charts. 

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I didn't know that. 
The word podcast charts went to 

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number one on the news charts 
and number three on the overall,

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all pack all podcast number 
three as like, whoa. 

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So for those of you who made 
that happen because you're 

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listening to it, thank you. 
Please subscribe please. 

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You know, rate the show make 
comments review it when Her 

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shirt with your friends, but 
subscribe, it's free, it's free,

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it's nothing. 
There's no nothing here yet. 

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Just, I just want you to listen.
I just want to be a little piece

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of your life and I'm honored 
that you let me into that. 

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And it's important right now 
especially the way that we all 

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talk to each other and we have 
this this interaction in this 

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conversation and I'm so glad to 
to invite you into this 

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conversation that I just had 
with Todd Phillips, the director

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of Joker to be clown. 
I have felt this way for since I

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was a teenager thinking, isn't 
it interesting that the funniest

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comedians are our funniest 
satirists or or? 

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Yeah. 
And I wonder how much in in in 

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maybe you study this too 
because, you know, you've made 

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some of the some great comedies.
And in my opinion, hangover is 

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easily in the top, three of the 
modern day. 

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Thank you. 
Film comedies. 

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Thank you. 
No, I'm not. 

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Or the other to read Hobb 
bridesmaids, right? 

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There's Something About Mary. 
Yeah, I would say, Borat 

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stepbrothers or an odd. 
Yeah, I don't know where to put 

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Borat because it's kind of, I 
was a writer on board. 

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I got nominated for an Academy 
Award for brightest. 

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Yeah. 
Oh my God, worked with such on 

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that. 
So I started working the whole 

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idea out with him. 
Yeah, very rarely God. 

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Yeah. 
What was that? 

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Like, it was amazing. 
I met him early and I, there's 

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another angry guy. 
Yeah. 

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Again, I mean, it does, it's a 
lot of it mean, Because you 

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know, comedy is based on truth 
and sometimes truth makes you 

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angry. 
And, you know, truth nowadays 

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has become offensive and so, a 
lot of Comedy has become 

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offensive and it's very weird 
kind of time to live. 

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Yeah. 
But comedy has to be offensive. 

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Yes. 
I mean, otherwise, because 

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comedian, it has to be a 
reverent. 

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The irreverent. 
And yes, but comedians are 

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saying the things. 
The rest of us are afraid to say

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there. 
They literally the job. 

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Yeah. 
So you're setting. 

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Self up for, you know, maybe you
know, maybe people aren't going 

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to like me if I say this. 
But it's if some of these things

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don't get said no matter how 
painful it is to listen to them.

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Yeah. 
Then I think were the worse off 

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for it. 
Yeah, that's my feeling about 

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that. 
But I think that that I do when 

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I say, you know, like your film 
like hangover or bridesmaids 

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were There's Something About 
Mary or bore some of the others 

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that you mentioned, well, bore 
at Step Brothers. 

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I'm just Is that brother seat of
the music? 

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The most reward chable comedy. 
See what? 

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I also believe as filmmakers, 
you know, because people will 

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say to me, wow Mike, you know 
the kinds of, I don't make the 

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films that you make, you know, 
you're so they're so among these

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issues are so important and and 
I'm like, no, no. 

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My belief as all of us as 
filmmakers if we do nothing 

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else. 
Then after the end of a hard 

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week, people work hard, we work 
longer hours in this country 

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than any other country. 
At the end of the week, if we 

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can give them a couple of hours 
of Joy course of of, of any, of 

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a range of emotions. 
Yeah, I mean, when they were you

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crying, yeah, they get mad. 
Yep. 

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Any of that? 
We've done a service, I think. 

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Yeah, I've had that so many 
times where I made old school or

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The Hangover movies are where 
somebody would come up to me and

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be like, I just got to tell you,
I saw your movie, I'd been in 

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the worst mood for two weeks. 
I started moving it just made 

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me. 
Forget everything and laugh for 

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two hours. 
And I literally feel better 

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after there is value in coming. 
It's what right? 

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Sullivan's travels, right, 
Preston Sturges, right? 

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It's there is, there is value if
you're adding value to the 

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world, when you can make a movie
like The Hangover made so much 

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money around the world, you do 
the math. 

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You go. 
Oh, you made 80 million people 

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laugh. 
That's not nothing. 

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No, I think it's really 
something. 

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And I think that actually 
Sullivan's travels was on TV 

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this week. 
Oh, I just happened to cross it.

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So I watched it again. 
Yeah. 

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And and if you Seen the film. 
It's basically the long and the 

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short of it is Hollywood. 
Film director. 

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This is the set in the 40s. 
Yeah, later later. 

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Yeah, late 30s. 
It was The Depression, right? 

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And he decides he doesn't want 
to make frivolous comedies 

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anymore. 
He wants to go make O Brother, 

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Where Art Thou? 
A serious social minded film 

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about the hard times. 
Everybody's going through. 

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And and so he goes out he 
decides to become a what was He 

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called a hobo right back then. 
Is there anybody like a homeless

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person but then it was literally
a hobo and like, go undercover 

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as a whole undercover as so. 
Imagine like a Hollywood 

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director today deciding I'm 
going to go undercover as a 

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homeless person in Downtown LA. 
Right. 

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And out of that, I'm going to 
make my my masterpiece, my Opus 

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and and so, but what he finds 
out along the way just to skip, 

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to the end of the movie, is that
in the end, and of course, he's 

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been arrested. 
He's been imprisoned right 

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there, he's on at work. 
Gang in the prison and he's and 

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the prisoners are being taken to
a church where it's, you know, 

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Monday movie night. 
They're showing it on a wall in 

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a movie with all. 
He's there with all the other 

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prisoners, and he's so upset, 
and he's just like, and, and 

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it's an old early early Walt 
Disney movie. 

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Yeah. 
All right. 

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So, he notices, everybody is so 
happy and it's a black church. 

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It's, it's people who were in 
the 30s. 

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Would be having it. 
The worst not. 

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That it's a hell of a lot better
now, but I basically, and he 

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looks around the church, and 
everybody is laughing and 

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smiling and touching each other.
Like, oh, this is right slapping

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each other on the back, and he's
like, oh, wait a minute, I used 

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to do this, I used to make these
kinds of films, and and he came 

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to that conclusion, that, you 
know, said that rise value in 

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this and that he could decide to
go back and make a comedy 

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because people needed relief. 
Yeah. 

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From Actually, during the Great 
Depression but they were all 

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going through. 
Yeah. 

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So so, so you. 
So you start. 

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Well, we actually started out as
a documentary filmmaker I did. 

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Yeah, right. 
I did I started out doing 

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documentary graduate from film 
school. 

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I didn't you did. 
I dropped out. 

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You dropped out. 
You never finished college. 

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No, I didn't finish in Wyoming 
to NYU and the reason I dropped 

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out, wasn't some big rebellious.
Reason, it was literally, I 

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couldn't afford the college to 
and finish the movie. 

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I was making so the project 
started as my junior year. 

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Year documentary. 
I went, you know, at NYU there 

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was two two, two ways you can go
you can go narrative or 

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documentary. 
I literally went the documentary

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route because I didn't know that
I had it in me to write scripts 

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yet. 
I feel like sometimes you go to 

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film school and a lot of 18 
year. 

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Olds don't have much to say, 
it's always viewed. 

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Documentaries is a way to kind 
of live life on fast-forward to 

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get life experience you know 
like to be in places and do 

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things you wouldn't normally do 
and at the same time, make a 

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film. 
I mean the first movie just to 

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backtrack That actually made me 
want to be a filmmaker was Gimme

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Shelter, you know, maysles and 
Charlotte's weren't and film on 

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the Altamont and yeah, the 69. 
Yeah. 

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Rolling Stones tour. 
And the reason why that was is 

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because you remember that movie,
I saw it on VHS at a friend's 

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house. 
When I was like, 12 years old, 

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his dad had it. 
It would, they filmed in the 

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editing room to remember that 
amazing where they brought the 

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cameras in the editing room 
here. 

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Showing the stones. 
What happened at Alomar, with 

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the stabbing. 
Yeah. 

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And I've never seen an editing 
room. 

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It was the first time I 
Understood that there are people

226
00:13:14,900 --> 00:13:17,000
behind movies. 
You don't really like, oh, look 

227
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,300
at that, and that's how I move 
he's made, and they really big 

228
00:13:19,300 --> 00:13:21,000
machine. 
It was an 8 plates teen back 

229
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,900
back then, and I decided, that's
what I wanted to do, and I just 

230
00:13:24,900 --> 00:13:27,100
went the documentary program at 
NYU. 

231
00:13:27,900 --> 00:13:30,000
So I started this. 
The first film I made is a film 

232
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,500
called hated GG Allin. 
The murder junkies was about 

233
00:13:32,500 --> 00:13:35,500
this. 
Punk, rock band, and, and on the

234
00:13:35,500 --> 00:13:37,800
scene in New York. 
Although they weren't in New 

235
00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:39,700
York band. 
He was actually in Detroit, he 

236
00:13:39,700 --> 00:13:42,500
was a, he got arrested, he was 
in jail and Ann Arbor Michigan. 

237
00:13:43,300 --> 00:13:45,400
When Started the movie, I'd 
written him in jail said, I want

238
00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,700
to do a movie about you. 
He was going to get out in three

239
00:13:47,700 --> 00:13:52,700
months, and and he broke parole 
to come to New York and do the 

240
00:13:52,708 --> 00:13:54,700
movie. 
So the movie was about him 

241
00:13:54,700 --> 00:13:56,900
putting his band back together. 
The documentaries about, and 

242
00:13:56,900 --> 00:13:59,200
this sort of tour, fresh out of 
jail. 

243
00:13:59,900 --> 00:14:02,900
He and this was in the 90s was 
in 91 91. 

244
00:14:02,900 --> 00:14:05,400
Yeah, yeah. 
So he breaking Parole in 

245
00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,200
Michigan in 91, you know, the 
state was already broke, right? 

246
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:09,200
They're not going to bring them 
down. 

247
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:10,500
Always track it. 
There's nobody left to try. 

248
00:14:10,500 --> 00:14:12,200
Yeah, he literally called me 
from jail. 

249
00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,700
He's like, well, you know, Do 
you guys either come out here 

250
00:14:14,700 --> 00:14:16,100
and do? 
Because I'm a old, I can't leave

251
00:14:16,100 --> 00:14:18,900
the state and I go, I can't 
bring like three crew. 

252
00:14:18,900 --> 00:14:21,200
People out there had no money to
make this your movie here, jr. 

253
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,000
And any guy, I'm a junior in 
college at NYU and he goes. 

254
00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,900
Wow, if you send me a bus 
ticket, I'll just come to New 

255
00:14:26,900 --> 00:14:29,800
York and we'll do it there. 
And so, I literally FedEx him a 

256
00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,500
one-way bus ticket and he came 
and we started the movie here 

257
00:14:32,500 --> 00:14:34,200
and he started putting his band 
back together, and that's what 

258
00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,300
the movies about. 
But, so I dropped out of NYU 

259
00:14:36,300 --> 00:14:40,400
because I couldn't afford the 
tuition at NYU, obviously, and 

260
00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:44,100
finish this film. 
So finished it and And that's 

261
00:14:44,100 --> 00:14:47,400
how I got started. 
So, so you dropped out of NYU 

262
00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:48,800
and your another, your 
undergrad? 

263
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:50,300
Yes. 
Oh yeah, I was in the undergrad 

264
00:14:50,300 --> 00:14:51,100
program. 
Go back. 

265
00:14:51,100 --> 00:14:52,900
You don't have a degree. 
No, okay. 

266
00:14:52,900 --> 00:14:55,600
Also interpreting the people 
listening to this, who are now 

267
00:14:55,700 --> 00:14:58,200
for paying forty thousand a year
Masters rides. 

268
00:14:58,200 --> 00:14:59,500
Well, I was in New York City 
residents. 

269
00:14:59,500 --> 00:15:02,100
Oh, I got a ton of financial aid
so really I was only paying 

270
00:15:02,100 --> 00:15:05,500
three grand a year to go to NYU.
Wow, Dom people that either 

271
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,600
that's just so depressing. 
So but I still had those still 

272
00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:10,400
to get that three grand. 
You do loans, right? 

273
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:14,300
So you know I finish but so I 
needed that A grand of Junior 

274
00:15:14,300 --> 00:15:16,400
and Senior year to actually 
finish the movie. 

275
00:15:17,700 --> 00:15:23,200
But but In fairness, I should 
say that when The Hangover the 

276
00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:26,300
first hangover won the Golden 
Globe for best comedy hour. 

277
00:15:26,300 --> 00:15:27,800
Yes, whatever. 
The best film of the Year 

278
00:15:28,500 --> 00:15:30,200
comedy. 
Yes, exactly. 

279
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:32,100
But it's only your parentheses 
comedy. 

280
00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:36,200
It won the Golden Globe and the 
dean at the time of NYU sent me.

281
00:15:36,500 --> 00:15:39,000
FedEx me a diploma with a 
letter. 

282
00:15:39,100 --> 00:15:42,100
And she said, can you, please 
stop saying you didn't graduate 

283
00:15:42,100 --> 00:15:43,400
from NYU. 
Oh, my. 

284
00:15:43,900 --> 00:15:46,500
That was really sweet. 
I should, I should say, I 

285
00:15:46,500 --> 00:15:50,300
dropped out in my sophomore year
of University of michigan-flint 

286
00:15:50,300 --> 00:15:51,300
brand. 
Okay. 

287
00:15:51,700 --> 00:15:54,700
They have never sent me. 
Oh, really know anything. 

288
00:15:54,900 --> 00:15:58,300
And in fact, Michigan State 
notice that that Michigan had 

289
00:15:58,300 --> 00:16:01,400
never done that for me. 
So they gave me an honorary 

290
00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,400
doctorate, oh, that's beautiful 
years ago, that's good, but, um,

291
00:16:04,900 --> 00:16:06,900
but anyway, so okay. 
So, so you start with 

292
00:16:06,900 --> 00:16:09,000
documentaries? 
You start with this one? 

293
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,900
Yeah. 
Then when I first met you, yes, 

294
00:16:12,900 --> 00:16:14,000
was yours. 
Second. 

295
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:19,100
Yeah, it's second movie that we 
did for HBO, and when I was 

296
00:16:19,100 --> 00:16:21,000
doing frat house, he was called 
frat house. 

297
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,800
And it was sort of this look at 
fraternities and hazing in the, 

298
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:31,200
in the mid to late 90s there. 
And when I was doing hated after

299
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,300
I was also interning for Sheila,
Nevins the great Sheila, Nevins 

300
00:16:34,300 --> 00:16:37,000
on HBO, because I was obsessed 
with document.write and I just 

301
00:16:37,300 --> 00:16:39,900
knew if I get in there, I can 
see how these things are made 

302
00:16:39,900 --> 00:16:44,900
and you know and Sheila was 
Going to me new, I dropped out 

303
00:16:44,900 --> 00:16:47,500
of school and still, let me in 
turn when I was dropped out for 

304
00:16:47,500 --> 00:16:50,500
another year there. 
I was with her for two years and

305
00:16:50,500 --> 00:16:54,800
then I brought her this idea 
with a friend of mine to do frat

306
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,100
house and she gave us the money 
to do it and we went and made it

307
00:16:58,100 --> 00:17:00,400
and it ended up winning the 
grand jury prize at Sundance 

308
00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,100
where I don't remember if you 
were as on the judge, if you 

309
00:17:03,100 --> 00:17:05,400
were on the jury because under I
can't remember if that was the 

310
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,400
era's on that. 
I know Nick Broomfield was on 

311
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,000
the jury where you have. 
Yeah, yeah. 

312
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:14,200
I well I know I was, I was there
that year also because I I had 

313
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,400
made a documentary where I 
travel across the country on a 

314
00:17:18,408 --> 00:17:19,400
book tour. 
Yeah. 

315
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:21,200
And it was called the big one, 
right? 

316
00:17:21,300 --> 00:17:23,900
And and you know what I most 
remember about that? 

317
00:17:23,900 --> 00:17:28,099
This is January of 98, right? 
Okay, while we were there that 

318
00:17:28,099 --> 00:17:33,400
week at Sundance, the news 
breaks about Monica Lewinsky and

319
00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:37,300
the whole thing right. 
Led to his impeach, right began.

320
00:17:37,300 --> 00:17:39,900
I members all we were like going
to movies and then trying to 

321
00:17:39,900 --> 00:17:42,100
watch TV, right? 
Holy crap. 

322
00:17:42,100 --> 00:17:43,300
What's going to happen? 
Yeah. 

323
00:17:43,900 --> 00:17:48,000
But so we you have to remind me 
how we met and so, will I just 

324
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:49,500
met you because you're Michael 
Moore? 

325
00:17:49,500 --> 00:17:52,100
And I've been obsessed with you 
because I know documentary 

326
00:17:52,100 --> 00:17:55,100
filmmakers The Way, some people 
know, rock singers, you know, 

327
00:17:55,100 --> 00:17:58,000
right meeting you and Nick 
Broomfield there for me was, was

328
00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,600
not a small thing, so I still 
have a photo of you and I think 

329
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,600
it was your wife at the time. 
I'm standing in between, you 

330
00:18:05,500 --> 00:18:08,600
have your arm around me and I 
just have beaming smile. 

331
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,100
It's literally my office in la. 
Oh my God. 

332
00:18:11,500 --> 00:18:12,800
Yeah. 
Oh, that's great. 

333
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,600
Yeah. 
Now it's obviously somebody, I 

334
00:18:15,608 --> 00:18:19,500
can't remember no recording. 
I took a picture with but it was

335
00:18:19,500 --> 00:18:23,900
a big moment for me and yes, but
but my arm was around you, it 

336
00:18:23,900 --> 00:18:27,900
was so that's a good sign. 
But so I guess you were on the 

337
00:18:27,900 --> 00:18:30,700
jury that year if it was with 
Christian Troy, Nick Broomfield 

338
00:18:30,700 --> 00:18:33,100
you. 
I remember them all their yes 

339
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,500
and so that must have been the 
year that I was on the jury and 

340
00:18:36,500 --> 00:18:37,800
the jury. 
Yeah yeah. 

341
00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,400
So thank you because you awarded
us the grand jury prize for 

342
00:18:40,408 --> 00:18:41,200
this. 
Wow. 

343
00:18:41,300 --> 00:18:44,200
So so then I can take some 
credit It for Joker. 

344
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,100
Yes. 
Are you trying to say very good 

345
00:18:46,100 --> 00:18:48,700
led to everything? 
You know, that amazing, how that

346
00:18:48,700 --> 00:18:49,500
happens? 
Yes. 

347
00:18:49,500 --> 00:18:52,800
Oh, so you make this documentary
wins the grand prize at 

348
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,100
Sundance. 
But then, if I now remember 

349
00:18:56,100 --> 00:19:01,500
correctly, it did not err. 
Yes, it didn't are because of 

350
00:19:01,500 --> 00:19:05,900
some weld, it didn't are because
quite frankly, we made a movie 

351
00:19:05,900 --> 00:19:09,700
at the time HBO was making 
movies called high on crack 

352
00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:14,100
Street and American skinhead and
you know, move easily about Um, 

353
00:19:14,300 --> 00:19:17,500
Niche films about 
underrepresented, right? 

354
00:19:17,500 --> 00:19:19,600
People. 
We made a movie about rich, 

355
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,600
wealthy white kids. 
How beating each other up and 

356
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,700
write overly represented kids, 
right? 

357
00:19:24,700 --> 00:19:28,000
And the truth of the matter is, 
we went about it wrong. 

358
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,000
I remember when we would 
approach these kids, as, you 

359
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,700
know, making documentaries, you 
have to get releases signed and 

360
00:19:33,700 --> 00:19:36,500
I would go to these kids and 
say, Hey, you know, I gotta sign

361
00:19:36,500 --> 00:19:37,900
this release before we start 
filming. 

362
00:19:37,900 --> 00:19:39,700
Yeah. 
And the kid would look, you 

363
00:19:39,700 --> 00:19:42,100
know, when I did that on my punk
rock movie, they sign it. 

364
00:19:42,100 --> 00:19:45,800
They're like, yeah, whatever. 
Needed on frat house, they would

365
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:46,700
go. 
Oh, yeah. 

366
00:19:46,700 --> 00:19:50,800
Let me just fax this to my dad, 
he's a lawyer and and then I 

367
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,400
would go cool. 
And then I go five minutes 

368
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:55,000
later, I'd walk up to the guy 
who, you know, I gave you the 

369
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:56,500
wrong one. 
I'm gonna give it to you 

370
00:19:56,500 --> 00:19:59,100
tomorrow and we would basically 
wait for them to get drunk and 

371
00:19:59,100 --> 00:20:01,100
stone, right? 
We approach them. 

372
00:20:01,100 --> 00:20:04,400
That was a problem. 
Yes, we did it wrong and they're

373
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,700
not, I don't, I don't know if 
that was so wrong. 

374
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,000
Why because you mean? 
Because later, then they made 

375
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,500
waking up a sign that I was 
drunk and I got party money and 

376
00:20:12,500 --> 00:20:13,900
daddy errands. 
Sue. 

377
00:20:13,900 --> 00:20:15,700
You their parents thought 
they're never going to work 

378
00:20:15,700 --> 00:20:17,900
again. 
If peoples, rather be be crazy. 

379
00:20:17,900 --> 00:20:20,300
Acting like animals, before 
Facebook. 

380
00:20:20,300 --> 00:20:21,700
Yes. 
Oh, hey, where are you? 

381
00:20:21,700 --> 00:20:23,900
So, yeah, fax machines, 
literally. 

382
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,700
So this is so the idea is, 
there's now footage that's going

383
00:20:27,700 --> 00:20:30,000
to be out there and this case on
HBO, right? 

384
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:31,800
Sonny boy. 
That's right. 

385
00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,600
And he's not going to get a job 
at one of the top law firms. 

386
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:36,500
That's exactly what it was. 
Wow. 

387
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:40,000
So then they came after HBO and 
Sheila, even though she's been 

388
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,200
amazing to me. 
And I have never had a bad word 

389
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:43,400
to say about her. 
She was so. 

390
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,300
Supportive. 
It just became mired in a lot of

391
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:50,100
BS honestly and and it just 
never are it, but it's kind of 

392
00:20:50,100 --> 00:20:53,400
weird because in some ways it 
made the movie it gave you 

393
00:20:53,408 --> 00:20:55,300
remember Todd Haynes is film The
Karen. 

394
00:20:55,300 --> 00:20:57,800
Carpenter's course one of my 
favorite of all right, but it's 

395
00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,400
almost bigger because it never 
is you're not actually allowed. 

396
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,100
You can't surprise. 
You can watch it on VHS tape and

397
00:21:04,100 --> 00:21:10,600
so Todd Haynes, whose film that 
he has out right now is Dark 

398
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:11,900
Water. 
Of course, it was Robert 

399
00:21:11,900 --> 00:21:17,400
Gruffalo, wonderful film, And he
he made a film, I actually call 

400
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,800
it a documentary because I have 
a very broad view of what a 

401
00:21:19,808 --> 00:21:23,800
documentary is in terms of it 
being a nonfiction work of art, 

402
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,200
that's right. 
He told the Karen Carpenter 

403
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,100
story. 
The Carpenters were an old group

404
00:21:28,100 --> 00:21:33,100
back in the 70s and whatever had
hits like close to you, but she 

405
00:21:33,100 --> 00:21:36,100
had died of anorexia and she'd 
had quite a tough life. 

406
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,300
He told the entire story on film
with Barbie dolls, he 

407
00:21:41,300 --> 00:21:43,400
essentially animated Barbie 
doll. 

408
00:21:43,500 --> 00:21:45,200
Al's but real Barbie doll. 
Yes. 

409
00:21:46,300 --> 00:21:49,200
Playing Karen and her brother 
Richard and the parents and 

410
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,000
everything and Mattel. 
Which owns Barbie, right. 

411
00:21:53,500 --> 00:21:54,700
Super bugs. 
Away. 

412
00:21:54,700 --> 00:21:56,200
Cease and desist. 
So, yes. 

413
00:21:56,500 --> 00:21:59,300
And so nobody. 
So he had it out in a couple of 

414
00:21:59,300 --> 00:22:00,900
theaters. 
I saw it in the theater in d.c. 

415
00:22:00,900 --> 00:22:04,700
well, and, and then it got 
pulled and that was the end of 

416
00:22:04,700 --> 00:22:07,500
that and nobody has seen it. 
So, my point is, in a weird way,

417
00:22:07,500 --> 00:22:11,100
it's become a bigger movie by 
the inability to see it. 

418
00:22:11,100 --> 00:22:14,700
You are, I know and I still 
unable to To watch frat houses. 

419
00:22:14,700 --> 00:22:17,000
Yeah, I guess. 
The truth is, I feel like if I 

420
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:18,800
approach those kids, if I know 
to get in touch with them, they 

421
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,300
would love it because it's a 
great like window into a time 

422
00:22:21,300 --> 00:22:23,000
when they were acting like 
morons. 

423
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:24,400
They're. 
All right, I'm sure have kids 

424
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,200
now, they have jobs. 
They're 45 at this point, who 

425
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,600
cares, right? 
But this this has been how to 

426
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,300
reach them, but I bet you, they 
would love it. 

427
00:22:31,300 --> 00:22:35,000
Well, maybe they are listening. 
Yes, number one, number two, for

428
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:36,900
all you YouTube hacktivists out 
there. 

429
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,700
If you can get a copy of frat 
house. 

430
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:41,200
Oh, I'll tell you this, it's out
there. 

431
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:42,400
It's all another tube. 
Yeah. 

432
00:22:42,500 --> 00:22:44,400
Oh yeah. 
It's Like up and around. 

433
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,600
I've seen Cod like, it floating 
around YouTube. 

434
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,700
Yeah, it is, it is out there. 
Now, that I think about it, of 

435
00:22:48,700 --> 00:22:51,400
course, you just gave me an idea
of a film festival in Michigan 

436
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:55,800
in the Summers that I should do.
One of these years, they say, 

437
00:22:56,500 --> 00:22:59,400
section of the Festival of these
years. 

438
00:22:59,500 --> 00:23:01,500
You know, the other one is the 
the Jerry Lewis won. 

439
00:23:01,500 --> 00:23:04,100
The day, the clown cried. 
But that's the one that Jerry 

440
00:23:04,100 --> 00:23:05,700
Lewis doesn't want. 
People to remember. 

441
00:23:05,700 --> 00:23:08,400
His name is not to prank film. 
Yes. 

442
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,700
And then I think he said you can
show it after I die, so he's 

443
00:23:12,700 --> 00:23:17,600
lost Years old plus, there were 
some other additional like 10 

444
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:19,700
years after I die, which is 
pretty pretty. 

445
00:23:19,700 --> 00:23:22,000
But again, but again because my 
festivals in Michigan. 

446
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:23,400
Yeah. 
And there's no rules. 

447
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:24,400
Yeah. 
You just show it. 

448
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,900
Yeah. 
And and 10 years in dog years. 

449
00:23:26,900 --> 00:23:28,900
Yes. 
What if they don't quote me? 

450
00:23:28,900 --> 00:23:30,200
Because it might have just been 
two years. 

451
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,000
I'd actually don't know. 
Yeah but I do there's like 

452
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,600
movies like that that are that 
would be a great section instead

453
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,000
of like midnight madness, social
the Karen Carpenter, her 

454
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,400
chauffeur now. 
Yeah, the Jerry Lewis, perfect. 

455
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,000
I think that, yes, you've just 
given me a great idea and And 

456
00:23:44,300 --> 00:23:46,500
and I will, I'll indemnify 
everybody. 

457
00:23:46,500 --> 00:23:50,400
Yeah, they said, hey buddy, gets
anybody gets frankly, those kids

458
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,300
that you filmed back in the 90s 
they will probably love. 

459
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,000
That's what I mean. 
I don't think they're. 

460
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,000
Yeah, of course. 
Young drunken. 

461
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:58,700
That's right. 
I think entitled cells. 

462
00:23:58,700 --> 00:24:00,900
I think they'll get a kick out 
of it at this point. 

463
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:05,700
So, okay, so so okay. 
Now you've made this great 

464
00:24:05,700 --> 00:24:09,600
documentary, it's won the grand 
jury prize at Sundance with 

465
00:24:09,700 --> 00:24:12,200
these filmmakers these 
documentary filmmakers that you 

466
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:16,900
just mentioned that are Great 
filmmakers, like yourself and 

467
00:24:16,900 --> 00:24:18,400
Nick Broomfield, and Christy. 
Joy. 

468
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,300
Why I meant, I meant them. 
Not me. 

469
00:24:20,700 --> 00:24:24,500
But yes, Christine Troy, who 
killed Vincent chin documentary 

470
00:24:24,500 --> 00:24:28,100
and best hotel in Skid Row. 
Great, yes, Nick Broomfield, 

471
00:24:28,100 --> 00:24:31,800
whose epic and crazy. 
And then you have the yes, Britt

472
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:33,200
now. 
But now you have the crushing 

473
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,400
experience of it's not going to 
air. 

474
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:42,600
Yeah, and I know this feeling 
because Michael Eisner after 

475
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,600
watching. 
Fahrenheit, 9/11, because 

476
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,900
Miramax was owned by Disney. 
Of course, said, we can't show 

477
00:24:48,900 --> 00:24:49,700
this. 
Wow. 

478
00:24:49,700 --> 00:24:53,100
And we decided to, of course, 
and you started Xcalibur. 

479
00:24:53,100 --> 00:24:54,000
Of course, I remember that 
right? 

480
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:55,100
Yeah. 
I let her remember. 

481
00:24:55,100 --> 00:24:58,500
The name didn't Harvey start. 
It wasn't no, it wasn't a great 

482
00:24:58,500 --> 00:24:59,900
way to make a makeup. 
No. 

483
00:24:59,900 --> 00:25:05,200
Know you're on the right track 
because he he formed a company 

484
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:07,800
called based on Lord of the 
Rings. 

485
00:25:08,500 --> 00:25:12,400
The Fellowship adventure group. 
Oh and and then they got the 

486
00:25:12,408 --> 00:25:15,400
strip but only after After the 
New York Times that a front-page

487
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,700
story on how Disney doesn't want
you to see this film the right 

488
00:25:18,700 --> 00:25:21,000
to me, right? 
And then it was like, that's the

489
00:25:21,100 --> 00:25:23,000
like, the gift from heaven, 
right? 

490
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,500
Tell the public that they can't 
see something like right now. 

491
00:25:25,500 --> 00:25:28,200
People are already trying to, 
they're looking up how to see 

492
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,800
frat house, right? 
Yes. 

493
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,300
Because you already have 
millions of fans from The 

494
00:25:34,300 --> 00:25:39,300
Hangover trilogy, but now this 
year's film, you know? 

495
00:25:39,300 --> 00:25:41,600
I just as a documentary 
filmmaker I want to go watch 

496
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,400
this film. 
I wanted to I somehow I'm just 

497
00:25:43,700 --> 00:25:45,000
House. 
Do you by the way? 

498
00:25:45,008 --> 00:25:46,800
Voted on use. 
Don't remember it's fine. 

499
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:48,500
Yeah, no, no, no. 
But that side, of course, I 

500
00:25:48,508 --> 00:25:50,200
don't remember. 
It's like 20 years ago. 

501
00:25:50,500 --> 00:25:52,100
How would I remember, right? 
Right. 

502
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:53,800
No, it's like. 
That's when you said to me, I 

503
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,200
think you were on the jury. 
I'm like, I was hot a jury, you 

504
00:25:57,208 --> 00:25:59,000
know. 
Usually judges don't let me on 

505
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,100
juries. 
That's my experience. 

506
00:26:01,500 --> 00:26:02,600
No. 
But I have to what know you. 

507
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,100
I mean, you'll give me a copy of
it, right. 

508
00:26:04,100 --> 00:26:06,200
I don't know that I even have 
copies believe or not. 

509
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,700
I swear II do that's how you 
required by the lawyers to say 

510
00:26:08,700 --> 00:26:09,800
that. 
No, we do. 

511
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,700
I have DVDs somewhere in my 
office and we've given them out 

512
00:26:12,700 --> 00:26:14,600
to people. 
So if I I can't find the pirate 

513
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:15,900
Adventure. 
Give it to you, of course. 

514
00:26:15,900 --> 00:26:17,500
All right. 
All right, but you're right, 

515
00:26:17,500 --> 00:26:20,100
that feeling what you said about
Michael Eisner and you film. 

516
00:26:20,100 --> 00:26:22,500
There's a little bit of panic 
that ensues, you know, how much 

517
00:26:22,500 --> 00:26:24,700
work, we know what? 
We know who I was into, we were 

518
00:26:24,700 --> 00:26:26,500
over. 
And by the way, I thought we 

519
00:26:26,500 --> 00:26:29,900
might have been over with Joker 
this to, to where we, where the 

520
00:26:29,900 --> 00:26:33,100
the narrative on Joker started 
heading in the media, I started 

521
00:26:33,100 --> 00:26:35,500
thinking Jesus is going to be 
one of those things where 

522
00:26:35,500 --> 00:26:38,900
Warner's because it's owned by 
AT&T and yeah, you know, Warner 

523
00:26:38,900 --> 00:26:41,700
media too much bigger thing than
Joker will ever be. 

524
00:26:42,100 --> 00:26:43,500
Do they just go? 
This isn't worth it. 

525
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,500
Like, so you do there was a 
minute there. 

526
00:26:45,500 --> 00:26:48,300
Now, that's what I exactly 
thought was going to happen in 

527
00:26:48,300 --> 00:26:51,800
the month, leading up to Joker 
after you won the. 

528
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,100
I think the top prize in Venice,
Venice, Film Festival, which was

529
00:26:55,100 --> 00:26:57,300
probably around Labor Day. 
It was exactly. 

530
00:26:57,300 --> 00:27:02,400
Labor day was Labor Day, okay? 
And they started right in on 

531
00:27:03,300 --> 00:27:06,100
certain media, people describing
what this film was. 

532
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:13,200
And I thought, no, no. 
And I really, he made hangover 

533
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:20,000
It's like, come on and the 
media, just pay, they picked it 

534
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,200
up and all of a sudden the fear 
level started Rising, then the 

535
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,100
national media. 
The Nightly News did stories 

536
00:27:27,100 --> 00:27:31,300
about, they're worried that if 
people, if you, you know, you're

537
00:27:31,300 --> 00:27:32,500
taking your life into your 
hands. 

538
00:27:32,500 --> 00:27:34,600
If you go see Joker because some
people are going to come into 

539
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,300
the theater and shoot it up or 
or somebody's going to come in 

540
00:27:37,300 --> 00:27:39,600
dressed like Joker. 
And in fact, if I remember 

541
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,400
correctly, some studio, some 
theater chains, I don't know. 

542
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,600
Was Warner Brothers themselves, 
but they put out a directive 

543
00:27:46,900 --> 00:27:51,100
that if you came to Joker 
dressed as Joker, you could not 

544
00:27:51,100 --> 00:27:52,700
get in. 
That's right to the theater. 

545
00:27:52,700 --> 00:27:53,900
Yeah. 
A couple change to that. 

546
00:27:53,900 --> 00:27:55,800
I don't want to say which ones 
because I actually don't 

547
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,400
remember. 
But there was two big ones. 

548
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,000
There's not that many where they
said. 

549
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:00,000
Yeah. 
No costumes. 

550
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:01,700
And a none of that, which I get.
And prune. 

551
00:28:01,700 --> 00:28:04,900
Understand, totally get it. 
But what's the message to 

552
00:28:04,908 --> 00:28:07,400
everybody else? 
I'm going to take my life in my 

553
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,600
hand right to Cassie a Joaquin. 
Phoenix movie. 

554
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,400
No, I'm not gonna do that, 
right? 

555
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,800
And, and so, So a week or so 
before it comes out you have 

556
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:18,400
your screening at the New York 
Film Fest. 

557
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,000
Yes. 
I go to it and I can't get into 

558
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,900
Lincoln Center because it is 
surrounded by police cars with 

559
00:28:25,900 --> 00:28:27,800
all their lights going. 
Yeah. 

560
00:28:28,100 --> 00:28:30,400
And I said to the cops what's 
going on here while we're here 

561
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,400
in case there's any trouble. 
I said what trouble? 

562
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,200
Well, haven't you heard? 
And of course I had heard right,

563
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:37,700
but I just wanted to hear what 
they were this. 

564
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,800
You're gonna say and and I said,
you know, these are people who 

565
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,300
had to buy expensive tickets. 
Go to the New York. 

566
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,200
I know they like donors for the 
festival dressed up in there. 

567
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,500
Like there's six, SWAT cars 
parked outside. 

568
00:28:49,500 --> 00:28:51,100
That is, you know, Lincoln 
Center. 

569
00:28:51,100 --> 00:28:54,600
It was, it was, it was crazy. 
And, and, and it was a bummer 

570
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,000
for us because, you know, it's 
hard enough to open a movie as 

571
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,500
we all know, and you're just 
like, oh, is this what we're up 

572
00:28:59,500 --> 00:29:03,800
against even the night Joaquin, 
and I went out the Friday night,

573
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,300
it opened will finally, like, 
okay, it's coming out, we went 

574
00:29:06,300 --> 00:29:09,700
out to theaters in New York 
City, the theater right here in 

575
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,400
your neighborhood and then 
another one, another one 

576
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,100
downtown. 
And there's 88 cop cars in front

577
00:29:16,100 --> 00:29:20,200
of every theater in New York and
armed armed of course cops in 

578
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,100
the theaters armed, cops in the 
passing them on escalators as 

579
00:29:23,100 --> 00:29:24,800
they're changing shifts. 
When's the last time you saw 

580
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,200
police people in the theno? 
Well I thought we were dead. 

581
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:29,900
Yeah. 
No no that's what movie was 

582
00:29:29,900 --> 00:29:30,900
dead. 
I thought so too. 

583
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,200
Number one opening weekend, 
which counts for everything. 

584
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,000
Yeah. 
People aren't going to go, 

585
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:37,400
right? 
They've been scared away from 

586
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,400
this. 
They've been told that the movie

587
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,700
and I'm not going to quote 
anybody specifically. 

588
00:29:42,700 --> 00:29:47,600
But in the The reports people 
are posting online stories. 

589
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,800
How this? 
This is really a movie that 

590
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:56,700
honors, the, the ultra-right, 
the in cells, the the the tiki 

591
00:29:56,700 --> 00:29:59,800
torch carrying people in 
Charlottesville, right? 

592
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,700
Yeah, he's unbelievable. 
It must have intercourse. 

593
00:30:02,700 --> 00:30:05,300
Just will get to the movie about
what it's about here. 

594
00:30:05,300 --> 00:30:09,000
But if you haven't seen it, it's
the opposite of that. 

595
00:30:09,300 --> 00:30:13,400
And so it's the director. 
This just must have I would have

596
00:30:13,500 --> 00:30:15,900
Been going crazy and all this 
effort. 

597
00:30:15,900 --> 00:30:18,500
All these years. 
It took you years to make this? 

598
00:30:18,500 --> 00:30:19,800
Yeah. 
From the first thought. 

599
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:20,700
Yeah. 
To do it. 

600
00:30:20,700 --> 00:30:22,800
Yeah. 
And now it's going to be killed 

601
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,900
because somebody started a rumor
that started more pressed 

602
00:30:26,900 --> 00:30:31,500
started saying that people are 
going to possibly lose their 

603
00:30:31,500 --> 00:30:33,000
lives. 
Yeah, if they go some it was 

604
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,100
literally on the ticker. 
I was of CNN and then I went to 

605
00:30:36,100 --> 00:30:39,300
London, it was on their Ticker 
on Channel 4 or Sky News. 

606
00:30:39,300 --> 00:30:42,600
I mean, you know, going across 
every two minutes of like, you 

607
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:48,000
know, Theaters, embracing 44 
issues, you know are bracing for

608
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,900
issues, as Joker has the 
theaters in two weeks and you're

609
00:30:50,900 --> 00:30:52,600
going, what are you talking 
about? 

610
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:53,900
Haters are Brit. 
That's what it said. 

611
00:30:53,900 --> 00:30:57,100
Yeah, something like that. 
You know, expecting the worst 

612
00:30:57,100 --> 00:31:00,100
are, you know, fears set in as 
Joker's coming in a week to 

613
00:31:00,100 --> 00:31:02,300
theaters. 
And it's like, what is going on 

614
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:04,000
ROM. 
So here you are. 

615
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,500
Now it's 20 years past your 
prize that you want it Sunday. 

616
00:31:08,500 --> 00:31:13,800
Yes, exactly. 
And and and this film I'm from 

617
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,800
20 years ago, never makes it to 
the public. 

618
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,000
And now people have tried to 
position. 

619
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,400
This film is something that it 
isn't yet and you're thinking 

620
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,400
that the week days leading up to
that weekend and that weekend. 

621
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,000
Well, I think after the first 
day you saw, Yes, because the 

622
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,300
grosses by the end of the 
weekend. 

623
00:31:32,300 --> 00:31:34,200
Yeah, you know, we had a 
massive, we can, but we're still

624
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,600
sort of white-knuckling it, 
because, to be totally honest 

625
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,600
with you, you start to think 
that these reports become a 

626
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,800
self-fulfilling prophecy exact. 
And I don't want to say, On like

627
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,300
a maniac, like a Donald Trump 
kind of person but you start 

628
00:31:47,300 --> 00:31:49,700
going. 
I think they're wanted to 

629
00:31:49,700 --> 00:31:51,500
happen. 
There's no way. 

630
00:31:51,500 --> 00:31:55,100
There were news Vans you parked 
outside of every theater 

631
00:31:55,100 --> 00:31:56,900
Joaquin. 
And I went to what are those 

632
00:31:56,900 --> 00:31:58,900
news Vans? 
Therefore, they're waiting for 

633
00:31:58,900 --> 00:32:01,300
something to happen. 
You start thinking that they 

634
00:32:01,300 --> 00:32:04,500
want something to happen, seems 
they're going they're driving 

635
00:32:04,500 --> 00:32:07,400
home after the all the five or 
six, showings of the night 

636
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,000
disappointed, because they 
expected something to go down, 

637
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,300
it really became. 
It was really An absolute bummer

638
00:32:14,300 --> 00:32:16,100
because it was should have been 
a time as you know, you put a 

639
00:32:16,108 --> 00:32:19,600
movie out and listen, I'm not. 
I'm not whining about. 

640
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,400
I want to sound like I'm 
whining, but it should be a time

641
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,200
where you're like. 
All right, here we go. 

642
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:24,700
You got to, you know, you're 
excited. 

643
00:32:24,700 --> 00:32:27,300
And we were just walking and I 
were just dreading every day, 

644
00:32:27,300 --> 00:32:31,200
because it was just a new report
of some think piece that was 

645
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,200
written about the movie and we 
had a, you know, besides all 

646
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,600
that we had all these think 
pieces that came out by people 

647
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:39,400
that didn't see the movie thing 
pieces. 

648
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,100
That literally said, I haven't 
seen the movie. 

649
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,000
I'm not going to see the movie. 
Yeah, you should see the movie. 

650
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,600
And here's why, and they would 
write a think piece about 

651
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,400
without having seen it. 
Yeah, it was really like, what 

652
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,500
is going on is going on here and
and everybody would say the 

653
00:32:54,500 --> 00:32:57,200
movie was political, and you'd 
ask somebody on the left. 

654
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,900
Nobody could Define how it was 
political because it wasn't 

655
00:32:59,900 --> 00:33:01,700
politically movies humanist. 
You know, right. 

656
00:33:01,700 --> 00:33:05,800
But the right would say it's 
about Universal Health Care, 

657
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,700
which I would argue it actually 
is and the left would say it's 

658
00:33:08,700 --> 00:33:11,100
about all right. 
And in cell culture which it 

659
00:33:11,100 --> 00:33:13,300
never was, we know the hell that
was no. 

660
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,800
It came from it was really 
young, but you know what? 

661
00:33:17,100 --> 00:33:19,800
It's what you just said before, 
what we were saying about Karen 

662
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,100
Carpenter, but saying about when
Disney stepped in and you're 

663
00:33:23,300 --> 00:33:25,300
suddenly, the New York Times is 
writing about it on the front 

664
00:33:25,300 --> 00:33:30,100
page of your film, suddenly it 
probably in the long run helped.

665
00:33:30,100 --> 00:33:33,400
I mean, it certainly it 
certainly the movie was the most

666
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,300
talked-about movie of the fall 
and it was talked and half of 

667
00:33:36,300 --> 00:33:39,800
that chatter was all the 
nonsense and, you know, 

668
00:33:40,100 --> 00:33:43,000
craziness, right. 
So you know, it probably 

669
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,800
ultimately Italy helped and 
certainly feels, you know, 

670
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,100
vindicating that a movie that 
was exposed in spout supposed to

671
00:33:49,100 --> 00:33:52,300
according to CNN. 
And, and, and every other news 

672
00:33:52,300 --> 00:33:55,600
network and newspaper was 
supposed to cause Mass violence 

673
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,100
really ended up, just causing a 
bunch of people to go to the 

674
00:33:58,100 --> 00:34:01,700
Bronx and dance on a set of, you
know, and staircase on the scene

675
00:34:01,700 --> 00:34:04,300
in the movie heavily, indicating
healing. 

676
00:34:17,300 --> 00:34:21,400
Joker, really, it really blew me
away. 

677
00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:28,699
I had listened to all the Prix 
news so-called news about what 

678
00:34:28,699 --> 00:34:35,900
this film is about and the 
Damage it was going to cause And

679
00:34:36,699 --> 00:34:40,600
and as I sat there, not ten 
minutes into it. 

680
00:34:41,699 --> 00:34:46,000
I can't believe first of all 
that this film got made and 

681
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:50,900
second of all that the the 
spirit of Stanley Kubrick has 

682
00:34:50,900 --> 00:34:54,199
returned. 
That's really how it felt like I

683
00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:57,800
could see that you were not 
going to obey the rules. 

684
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:04,000
The we were told this was an 
origin story about a knot. 

685
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:09,700
In this case a superhero but a 
super villain and you know 20 

686
00:35:09,700 --> 00:35:12,200
minutes into the film. 
You realize that's not going to 

687
00:35:12,207 --> 00:35:17,000
happen. 
You have not created, Gotham, 

688
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:22,700
Gotham City is some sort of 
weird version of New York. 

689
00:35:22,700 --> 00:35:27,200
It is New York, right? 
You're just you now, maybe maybe

690
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,100
you'll tell me that you were 
just trying to save an art 

691
00:35:29,100 --> 00:35:31,900
Direction because you only had 
so much money for the budget, 

692
00:35:32,100 --> 00:35:35,800
but you made a decision. 
You have the story set in New 

693
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,500
York but I just you know, before
I get to a few sub here. 

694
00:35:39,500 --> 00:35:42,600
Thank you. 
I just, I just want to lay my 

695
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:48,400
cards out on the table that this
film people listening to this, 

696
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,300
if you haven't seen, it is a 
masterpiece. 

697
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:53,600
Is it uncomfortable? 
Yes. 

698
00:35:54,500 --> 00:35:59,000
Will you think about it for the 
next week or two or three? 

699
00:35:59,100 --> 00:36:01,500
Yes, because it's that 
disturbing. 

700
00:36:01,500 --> 00:36:04,400
Yes. 
But why is it disturbing and And

701
00:36:04,900 --> 00:36:07,500
without giving really too much 
of it away. 

702
00:36:07,500 --> 00:36:11,100
Even though many people by now, 
obviously have yeah, feel free 

703
00:36:11,100 --> 00:36:12,200
to give it away. 
It's funny. 

704
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,000
You say that because somebody 
came up to me at a screening and

705
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:19,800
said, to me, this movie, 
Comforts The Disturbed and 

706
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,500
disturbs the Comfort, the 
comfortable. 

707
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:24,700
Yes. 
And I don't have the, he made it

708
00:36:24,700 --> 00:36:25,600
up. 
I don't know. 

709
00:36:25,900 --> 00:36:27,400
It's a very, it's always a 
famous. 

710
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:28,900
Okay. 
I thought whoa you know one of 

711
00:36:28,908 --> 00:36:32,200
the great muckraker, right? 
The early 20th century said the 

712
00:36:32,207 --> 00:36:36,200
purpose of Journalism is to come
Bert, The Afflicted, Ryan to 

713
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:41,500
afflict the comfortable, right? 
And for us, they said, he said 

714
00:36:41,500 --> 00:36:43,600
he made it. 
This guy changed it. 

715
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,200
And again, maybe it was changed,
was the purpose of art. 

716
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,700
He was basically saying was to 
comfort the Disturbed. 

717
00:36:48,700 --> 00:36:50,400
Yes. 
And disturb the comfortable. 

718
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,200
And I thought that was a pretty 
interesting that akan the movie.

719
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,800
That is exactly what art should 
do. 

720
00:36:56,100 --> 00:37:01,800
And that's what what this film 
does, because it is, is set in 

721
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,800
the 1970s late. 
These early 80s. 

722
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,900
It looks like no dates flash on 
the screen but it looks that you

723
00:37:08,908 --> 00:37:13,000
can tell it's not ours. 
Oh yeah, not now but it feels 

724
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:18,900
like now not in the sense where 
the graffitis on the Subways and

725
00:37:18,900 --> 00:37:24,300
all that, but that it's a 
struggle, it's a struggle for a 

726
00:37:24,300 --> 00:37:28,600
lot of people to get by the the 
we now have more than half the 

727
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:33,400
country, literally living from 
paycheck to paycheck that awful 

728
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,500
statistics. 
Hear that over 50% of the public

729
00:37:36,700 --> 00:37:40,400
does not have $500 to their 
name, not in the bank, not in 

730
00:37:40,408 --> 00:37:42,000
their pocket, obviously not 
anywhere. 

731
00:37:42,300 --> 00:37:45,900
So that and the way they the 
story started was because 

732
00:37:45,900 --> 00:37:51,000
someone had loved one. 
Grandparent had died on the 

733
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,900
other side of the country here 
and she couldn't afford the 

734
00:37:54,900 --> 00:37:57,900
plane ticket to go to California
and back. 

735
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,600
And that's, that was sort of the
the lead of the story is that 

736
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,900
the majority of Americans. 
If a loved one passed, Tonight 

737
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,400
don't have the money to go to 
the funeral. 

738
00:38:07,500 --> 00:38:10,100
Hmm. 
And when it's put like that 

739
00:38:10,100 --> 00:38:14,600
right, it's like yeah that is 
the time in which we live and 

740
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,500
yes the unemployment rates are 
really low but all that saying 

741
00:38:17,500 --> 00:38:20,800
is that people are being 
employed at $7.25 an hour, 

742
00:38:20,900 --> 00:38:23,000
right? 
Or $10 an hour or whatever. 

743
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:31,200
But so so this film that you 
make during this time that were 

744
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:36,700
in and and I'm sure Had the idea
to make this before Trump had 

745
00:38:36,700 --> 00:38:39,000
been elected? 
Well before he was elected, but 

746
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,000
really the idea came to me and 
August of 2016. 

747
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,500
So he was already so the 
candidate and and it was, it was

748
00:38:45,500 --> 00:38:48,300
going down, and I went there. 
Start out. 

749
00:38:48,300 --> 00:38:51,800
Tell me how you, where did, 
where did this come from? 

750
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,500
So it's the year of 2016. 
Yeah, I'll tell you exactly what

751
00:38:55,500 --> 00:38:56,900
it is. 
Yeah, I mean, wasn't so much 

752
00:38:56,900 --> 00:38:58,900
about the election at that 
moment to have the idea. 

753
00:38:58,900 --> 00:39:01,500
But the idea was really about, I
had another film that I made 

754
00:39:01,500 --> 00:39:03,900
right prior to this called war 
dogs. 

755
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,500
And you know, we make these 
movies, you work as hard on the 

756
00:39:06,500 --> 00:39:09,100
ones that do well as you do on 
the ones that don't do well or 

757
00:39:09,100 --> 00:39:11,900
don't sort of set the world on 
fire. 

758
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,900
And I remember I was standing 
outside on Hollywood Boulevard 

759
00:39:16,700 --> 00:39:19,200
pacing because I never sit 
through premieres and screenings

760
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,800
that made me too nervous and I 
started thinking about why this 

761
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,600
movie is not going to last, I 
said set the world on fire and 

762
00:39:25,700 --> 00:39:28,400
God, the business has really 
changed and it's so hard to cut 

763
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,200
through the fog, nowadays with 
films. 

764
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,300
And I sitting there smoking a 
cigarette staring at this 

765
00:39:33,300 --> 00:39:37,100
billboard for Comic book film 
and I'm realizing, this is 

766
00:39:37,100 --> 00:39:39,700
really where the business is 
headed and the movies. 

767
00:39:39,700 --> 00:39:42,600
I grew up on the movies that 
really shaped Me growing up 

768
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:46,000
these films from the 70s, 
whether it's Scorsese, and taxi 

769
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,400
driver, or Sidney, lumet films, 
or One Flew Over the Cuckoo's 

770
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,100
Nest. 
I got, you couldn't even get 

771
00:39:51,100 --> 00:39:54,300
those movies made nowadays. 
If, if you walked in with the 

772
00:39:54,308 --> 00:39:57,800
with, with, you know, with that 
script for Network. 

773
00:39:57,800 --> 00:39:59,600
Could that movie even get made 
nowadays. 

774
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,800
And then I said, and then I 
thought, well, you can make it. 

775
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,600
If we made it by one of Those 
guys, literally staring at the 

776
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:09,400
Boulevard and I just thought, 
wow, there's a way to kind of 

777
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,100
sneak a movie through the 
system, a movie about something,

778
00:40:12,100 --> 00:40:15,100
something meaningful. 
If you kind of dress it up this 

779
00:40:15,100 --> 00:40:17,600
way and as mercenaries that 
sounds, that is really what the 

780
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:22,300
idea was. 
And so that the head of Warner 

781
00:40:22,300 --> 00:40:25,600
Brothers, at the time, the 
premiere was on August 14th. 

782
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:29,200
I think he was away with his war
dog of war, dog sources, August 

783
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,500
22nd 2016. 
Now the, the head of Warner's 

784
00:40:32,500 --> 00:40:35,800
name's Greg Silverman. 
He Old me because he couldn't 

785
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:37,700
come to the premiere because it 
was a week before his kids 

786
00:40:37,700 --> 00:40:39,100
started school and had to go on 
vacation. 

787
00:40:39,100 --> 00:40:42,000
So he knows me because I've made
six, seven movies at Warner's, 

788
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,200
that I'm always standing outside
on Hollywood Boulevard at the 

789
00:40:44,207 --> 00:40:46,300
vermeer's. 
So he calls me on the phone and 

790
00:40:46,300 --> 00:40:48,200
says, hey man, I knew you'd be 
outside. 

791
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:49,700
I knew you'd pick up. 
I just want to tell you. 

792
00:40:49,700 --> 00:40:51,500
I'm sorry, I'm not there. 
Love you. 

793
00:40:51,500 --> 00:40:53,300
Love the movie. 
You know, we're going to support

794
00:40:53,300 --> 00:40:56,100
it whatever and I go, hey, Greg,
you know, I have this idea. 

795
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,300
Literally the day of the for me,
the night of the parent while 

796
00:40:59,300 --> 00:41:03,600
the film was playing and inside,
there's 700 people in there. 

797
00:41:04,100 --> 00:41:08,000
And he goes, yeah, what is it? 
And I told him, I said, Joe, you

798
00:41:08,008 --> 00:41:09,800
know. 
So when I'm looking at that bull

799
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,700
bar, I thought boy, you could do
it about one of these guys. 

800
00:41:12,700 --> 00:41:15,600
You get that movie made and I'm 
thinking myself I'm not a really

801
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,100
a comic book movie guy. 
I find that there are four 

802
00:41:18,100 --> 00:41:20,900
children quite frankly, I've 
always find them. 

803
00:41:20,900 --> 00:41:25,000
They're there they go down. 
Too easy for me in a way. 

804
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,800
But I was thinking about well 
what if you did it about one of 

805
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,100
the bad guys? 
You know what, if you took a 

806
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,500
villain and gave him. 
So anyway, so I pitch it to Greg

807
00:41:33,500 --> 00:41:35,200
on the phone. 
And he loves it. 

808
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,400
Like literally, I have 25 
minutes on it. 

809
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,500
What it, what it is? 
I hadn't had worked out yet. 

810
00:41:39,500 --> 00:41:41,000
What? 
Of course at the movie that we 

811
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,900
all see. 
Now, but I had the idea and he 

812
00:41:43,908 --> 00:41:46,300
goes, wow, I love that. 
You know, that sounds amazing. 

813
00:41:46,300 --> 00:41:49,200
Let's talk about next week when 
I get back, when the movie ends,

814
00:41:49,500 --> 00:41:52,900
the head head of the studio 
Greg's boss, who was in, the 

815
00:41:52,900 --> 00:41:57,000
Chinese Theater comes out and 
says, what's going on, Greg's 

816
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,300
been texting me for 10 minutes. 
He has all these texts from 

817
00:42:00,300 --> 00:42:02,000
Greg. 
He told me, you have a great 

818
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,700
idea and he goes come. 
Come ride with me that a party 

819
00:42:05,700 --> 00:42:07,600
because you know, the parties 
for the premier's, this one 

820
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,200
happened be at the Sunset Towers
or there was a good drive, he 

821
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,900
was come ride in my car with me 
and tell me it so I pitched it 

822
00:42:12,900 --> 00:42:15,400
to him in the car going to the 
Sunset Towers. 

823
00:42:15,700 --> 00:42:17,800
And by the time, we're at Sunset
Towers, it's done. 

824
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:19,500
Go ride at that sounds really 
cool. 

825
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,800
As you know, in the movie 
business regimes change. 

826
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,500
I've had a deal at Warner since 
2004 that's almost 16 years. 

827
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,600
I've seen that regime change 
happen four or five times at 

828
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,400
this point. 
So while I'm off writing the 

829
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:37,400
script with With Scott silver 
who I wrote it with the regimes 

830
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,100
change. 
And all those people had this 

831
00:42:39,100 --> 00:42:40,900
great sort of pitch with at 
Warner's. 

832
00:42:41,300 --> 00:42:44,800
Now it's a new group, you know, 
so we had to jump through some 

833
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,900
more hoops and, you know, using 
the movie, you know, it's, they 

834
00:42:47,900 --> 00:42:50,200
ultimately took a bold swing, 
but there were a lot of 

835
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:54,500
obstacles, ultimately, you know,
so many people say, to me what 

836
00:42:54,500 --> 00:42:56,400
you said, when you were doing 
the lead up with this, which 

837
00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:00,200
was, how does this movie exists?
How did how does, how is this a 

838
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,900
studio film? 
And I always tell the story. 

839
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,600
A of, you know, I had lunch with
a really great old-school 

840
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:11,700
producer who produced in the 70s
and 80s movies, we love and 

841
00:43:11,900 --> 00:43:14,400
famous old school producer. 
And he said to me look you've 

842
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:18,400
made this this studio close to 
two billion dollars in the last 

843
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:20,800
six, seven years with the 
hangover movies and a couple 

844
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,500
others that we had done and he 
goes, you've earned a lot of 

845
00:43:23,500 --> 00:43:26,300
Goodwill but in this town 
Goodwill is perishable you need 

846
00:43:26,300 --> 00:43:29,800
to go out and you need to use it
and that really is what I did 

847
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:33,500
with it with Joker, we just used
all the Goodwill, I turned over 

848
00:43:33,500 --> 00:43:36,700
all that. 
Time and money and put it all on

849
00:43:36,700 --> 00:43:39,700
the table and it still was 
difficult. 

850
00:43:39,700 --> 00:43:42,600
Believe it or not because the 
new regimes tend to not want to 

851
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:44,600
look back. 
They want to know what can you 

852
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:48,300
do for me now and it was a risky
idea on paper looking back on 

853
00:43:48,300 --> 00:43:50,200
it. 
It seems like what was the risk 

854
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:54,100
but you know, we were going into
their crowned Jewels, their IP 

855
00:43:54,100 --> 00:43:57,300
and taking something and really 
turning it on its head. 

856
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,200
No, the thing that the thing 
that the thing that turned 

857
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:04,900
around the Warner Brothers will 
call it the, in the turn era in 

858
00:44:04,900 --> 00:44:10,000
89 was when they did the 
original Batman movie. 

859
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,000
Yeah. 
With Michael Keaton. 

860
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:15,100
Yep. 
And they made a gazillion 

861
00:44:15,300 --> 00:44:18,500
dollars. 
And in fact, when they, when 

862
00:44:18,500 --> 00:44:22,600
they became the distributor for 
Roger me, my first film, they 

863
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:26,600
essentially were using Batman's 
right money because I'm sure was

864
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:30,600
so flush with this cash that and
the same month, they decided to 

865
00:44:30,607 --> 00:44:36,100
vote to buy a Time Time life. 
Oh, Life before the Nets, all 

866
00:44:36,100 --> 00:44:39,400
Batman generate well. 
So yes crown jewels. 

867
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:40,700
Yeah, jewel. 
Right. 

868
00:44:40,700 --> 00:44:44,300
This is this gave them their 
that re-established Warner 

869
00:44:44,300 --> 00:44:49,000
Brothers, it's true, as a go-to 
place for the mass audience 

870
00:44:49,500 --> 00:44:50,800
films. 
You're right. 

871
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,400
And so here you are sitting 
there with them. 

872
00:44:53,700 --> 00:44:57,800
You're telling them that you're 
going to do a movie about a 

873
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,300
character. 
Who is a super villain that 

874
00:45:00,300 --> 00:45:03,300
they've has long established 
number of people from Jack 

875
00:45:03,300 --> 00:45:06,300
Nicholson? 
Don have played Joe, but I'm 

876
00:45:06,300 --> 00:45:08,800
going to, I'm going to humanize 
Yacker. 

877
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:10,200
Right. 
I'm going to make him like a 

878
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,200
real person. 
Yeah. 

879
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,100
And there's gonna be a sense of 
humanity to this. 

880
00:45:14,100 --> 00:45:16,700
And when he starts out, he's not
going to start out as a 

881
00:45:16,700 --> 00:45:19,000
supervillain, right? 
Like he's going to start out. 

882
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:21,500
Yeah, basically a movie about a 
villain, where the villain is 

883
00:45:21,500 --> 00:45:23,900
the hero and you love them and 
root form until you can't root 

884
00:45:23,900 --> 00:45:26,600
form any longer Correll was sort
of the elevator pitch. 

885
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:31,200
Yeah. 
And but okay so I because I so I

886
00:45:31,300 --> 00:45:33,800
knew those people at Warner's I 
can understand them Warner's. 

887
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:38,100
They're their ethos as a studio 
that they would eventually go 

888
00:45:38,100 --> 00:45:40,900
for this, right? 
But you got to tell me when they

889
00:45:40,900 --> 00:45:43,400
had to bring in the DC Comics 
people. 

890
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:45,300
Yeah, that meeting. 
Yeah. 

891
00:45:45,300 --> 00:45:47,500
What was that? 
Like because how did you 

892
00:45:47,500 --> 00:45:50,500
convince DC Comics that you 
weren't going? 

893
00:45:50,500 --> 00:45:52,600
There was guy could this was not
gonna be an action film. 

894
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,700
Well, the truth is and I'm 
really said this, but the real 

895
00:45:55,700 --> 00:45:59,300
truth is when the regime changed
with the with the, with the two 

896
00:45:59,300 --> 00:46:01,000
or three people that I was 
mentioned on the Warner's Side, 

897
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,400
the regime also changed on the 
DC side. 

898
00:46:03,900 --> 00:46:07,600
And they put a guy in charge of 
DC, who's an amazing guy, by the

899
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:11,000
way, I do, but Walter Hamada, 
who would have been running a 

900
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:16,500
small horror label at new line, 
so he didn't really have the 

901
00:46:16,500 --> 00:46:19,700
muscle to stop it. 
And and I'm not even saying he 

902
00:46:19,700 --> 00:46:25,000
would have but he didn't get it 
and and because I'm paper it 

903
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:26,300
reads. 
It's crazy. 

904
00:46:26,300 --> 00:46:29,100
And it is especially if you're 
writing DC Comics. 

905
00:46:29,100 --> 00:46:30,100
Yeah. 
And you're just stepped into 

906
00:46:30,100 --> 00:46:33,500
this new job and really that we 
just made Shazam and Wonder 

907
00:46:33,500 --> 00:46:36,400
Woman Doing okay, to we really 
want to mess with the formula. 

908
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:39,800
And so I really understood his 
point but in some ways I had 

909
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:43,600
enough weight behind me at that 
point to not overrule it because

910
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:47,600
they could have easily said no 
but we just kept our our foot on

911
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:52,000
the gas and we really just kept 
squeaky wheel gets the grease as

912
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:56,200
you say and we just made a thing
of it for a long time and truth 

913
00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:02,000
be told the budget was so small 
and I say so small in Berg in 

914
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:03,700
relation to other comic book 
films. 

915
00:47:03,900 --> 00:47:05,900
Not small. 
You know, we ultimately made the

916
00:47:05,908 --> 00:47:09,600
movie for 60 million dollars, 
but at Warner Brothers or a DC, 

917
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:11,300
that's like an independent film 
to them. 

918
00:47:11,500 --> 00:47:14,100
So we kept it. 
So under the radar and so small 

919
00:47:14,300 --> 00:47:18,100
that in, in some way, it felt 
like not a can't lose but like, 

920
00:47:18,100 --> 00:47:19,500
okay. 
What could we really lose on 

921
00:47:19,500 --> 00:47:22,400
this if it just is a disaster? 
And if nobody wants to see it, 

922
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,200
if it's boring, if it's all 
this, right? 

923
00:47:24,300 --> 00:47:28,100
So they let us go you, because 
you kept the budget low, you 

924
00:47:28,100 --> 00:47:31,400
didn't have them, breathing down
our necks, and we've basically, 

925
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:33,800
it was something they ignored 
for a long time, and let us go. 

926
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:37,600
And and do it, whose idea was it
to have it premiered at the 

927
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:38,500
Venice. 
Film Festival. 

928
00:47:38,500 --> 00:47:42,600
Because again this isn't where a
mass audience action comic book 

929
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:46,400
film premieres and one of the 
top three festivals in the 

930
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:47,100
world. 
Yeah. 

931
00:47:47,100 --> 00:47:49,500
And there's Venice and there's 
Berlin. 

932
00:47:49,500 --> 00:47:52,500
Yeah, and I would argue Venice 
has become really one of the 

933
00:47:52,508 --> 00:47:56,400
Premier ones of of launching a 
movie. 

934
00:47:56,900 --> 00:47:59,900
It's the oldest film festival. 
It's I don't know if you've been

935
00:47:59,900 --> 00:48:01,700
there for most beautiful thing, 
I come. 

936
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:06,500
So we It was Blair Rich who runs
marketing there and me because 

937
00:48:06,500 --> 00:48:09,900
the one thing that the, the that
Warner's was always concerned 

938
00:48:09,900 --> 00:48:14,800
about was confusing the audience
and so they, you know, this 

939
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:18,100
audience knows what DC is. 
And all of a sudden they just 

940
00:48:18,100 --> 00:48:20,100
made a movie a couple of years 
before Suicide Squad. 

941
00:48:20,100 --> 00:48:23,100
There was a joker character in 
that how do you separate it? 

942
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:26,700
So one of those things was Blair
Rich saying we're going to, 

943
00:48:26,700 --> 00:48:28,000
we're going to sell it 
differently. 

944
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:29,900
We're going to, we're going to 
take a different road with it. 

945
00:48:29,900 --> 00:48:32,600
So, if the movie is good enough,
we're going to go to Venice Film

946
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,700
Festival which we Which we did 
and premiered there. 

947
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,100
So that was all part of the like
we got to tell people. 

948
00:48:39,100 --> 00:48:42,600
This is not the what they're 
expecting, mainly because we 

949
00:48:42,607 --> 00:48:45,300
also didn't I thought one point,
you know, we're going to have 

950
00:48:45,300 --> 00:48:47,500
mass walkouts. 
If you convince the quote 

951
00:48:47,500 --> 00:48:49,900
unquote Fast and the Furious 
crowd to show up to this movie 

952
00:48:49,900 --> 00:48:51,400
because they're going to be 
bored by it. 

953
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,000
So we wanted to educate the 
audience that this is not your 

954
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:59,200
typical superhero movie, granted
we educated them and they ended 

955
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:02,600
up liking it and not being bored
by and low and and coming back 

956
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:04,800
but we weren't sure about that. 
That's a, we don't want to trick

957
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,200
anyone into, you know, word gets
out so quick on movies. 

958
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:08,900
Now, the trailer was honest. 
Yes. 

959
00:49:08,900 --> 00:49:12,200
And, and I think, and I think, 
so, let's say you're a big 

960
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:17,600
Comics comic book person. 
I think you'd have to go check 

961
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:20,200
this out, right? 
At least, check it out, right? 

962
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,400
Because these are characters, 
I've lived with, since I was 10 

963
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:28,000
years old, right? 
So, so, and the fact that not 

964
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:34,000
only were you not pilloried by 
that group, I know, which is We 

965
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,600
that was the group, we expected,
maybe knowledge is the opposite 

966
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:39,400
happen and I am cuz I know some 
of these people I'm not 

967
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:43,700
mentioning any names, but they 
appreciated. 

968
00:49:44,100 --> 00:49:51,900
The fact that you took such a 
risky Deep dive into the human 

969
00:49:51,900 --> 00:49:56,600
being, that is this character, 
you know, that it made it, it 

970
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:59,200
made it so much, you know. 
Okay. 

971
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,300
Yes, I didn't get my action 
scenes. 

972
00:50:01,300 --> 00:50:04,700
I didn't get the car. 
Chase the Cameo from one of the 

973
00:50:04,707 --> 00:50:09,700
Transformers didn't show up 
right there, but it's, it is, 

974
00:50:09,700 --> 00:50:14,000
so, it's so moving on. 
Here's my, the problem I have 

975
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:19,100
had with my friends, on the 
left, especially the more 

976
00:50:19,300 --> 00:50:24,000
education they've had, they do 
not want to go see this film. 

977
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:25,000
This is bad. 
Yeah, I know. 

978
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:27,200
A few months ago. 
Oh no, I said no, you've got to 

979
00:50:27,207 --> 00:50:29,600
see this movie? 
Oh no, are you guy heard? 

980
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:33,100
It's he just goes around and no,
no stop. 

981
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,100
First of all dumb. 
Everything you've heard. 

982
00:50:35,300 --> 00:50:39,400
All right. 
It's it's it's like the world 

983
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:43,000
isn't flat, you know? 
It's right, it's right. 

984
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:45,600
We don't. 
But the the sun doesn't revolve 

985
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:51,300
around us and Joker is not some 
crazy film to inspire people to 

986
00:50:51,300 --> 00:50:56,100
be even crazier, more violent. 
In fact, the amount of so-called

987
00:50:56,100 --> 00:51:00,900
blood in the film is the least 
bloody R-rated film. 

988
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:06,900
I've seen in a long time. 
And, and, without again, as I 

989
00:51:06,900 --> 00:51:11,500
said, the my time giving it 
away, the people who died, I 

990
00:51:11,500 --> 00:51:14,100
have to tell you, to be honest. 
And I'm, I consider myself a 

991
00:51:14,107 --> 00:51:17,400
non-violent very non violent, 
right person? 

992
00:51:19,700 --> 00:51:21,300
The first three people that 
died. 

993
00:51:21,500 --> 00:51:23,600
And by the way, when I say the 
first three, there's maybe a 

994
00:51:23,607 --> 00:51:26,600
total of six in the whole movie 
in the whole move, right? 

995
00:51:26,700 --> 00:51:29,400
That died. 
The first three, your kind of 

996
00:51:29,500 --> 00:51:32,000
quietly going. 
Yes well one of the three got 

997
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:35,800
away, please Joker. 
Go get him, go get him, go get 

998
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:39,000
him. 
Because because because and we 

999
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:44,100
live now in a time where 
hopefully more and more people 

1000
00:51:44,100 --> 00:51:51,300
are sensitive and wanting to act
on stopping the abuse of women 

1001
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:55,200
in all the forms that that takes
in their daily lives. 

1002
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:57,100
And of course, at this 
particular scene, I'm referring 

1003
00:51:57,100 --> 00:52:00,500
to near the beginning. 
Not at the beginning, but near 

1004
00:52:00,500 --> 00:52:04,100
the beginning, on the subway. 
Yeah, I think we were Rise by 

1005
00:52:04,100 --> 00:52:07,900
the reaction because one of the 
things that happened outside of,

1006
00:52:07,900 --> 00:52:10,200
oh, it's going to cause Mass 
hysteria mass murders. 

1007
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:12,600
All these horrible things that 
people were invoking was also, 

1008
00:52:12,700 --> 00:52:17,200
as you say on the left side 
where I didn't expect people 

1009
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:21,100
saying it's just irresponsible 
yeah, depiction of violence and 

1010
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:23,200
Joaquin. 
And I literally when we were 

1011
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:26,500
making it as crazy as this 
sounds we thought we were making

1012
00:52:26,500 --> 00:52:30,200
a responsible depiction of 
violence because we showed how 

1013
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:32,800
ugly and horrific violence is to
me. 

1014
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:35,700
It responsible to be The 
violence is when it's celebrated

1015
00:52:35,700 --> 00:52:38,100
in a movie when a character is 
running around with a gun 

1016
00:52:38,100 --> 00:52:42,100
killing nameless people by the 
hundreds, you know, I know in 

1017
00:52:42,100 --> 00:52:45,100
the spirit of Defending, 
whatever the country, this that 

1018
00:52:45,100 --> 00:52:48,100
we're out there, and it's 
supposed it violent suppose, 

1019
00:52:48,100 --> 00:52:50,100
isn't it ugly? 
Isn't it supposed to be gruesome

1020
00:52:50,100 --> 00:52:52,000
And discussing? 
So to us, it felt. 

1021
00:52:52,300 --> 00:52:55,000
So if we show The Real World 
implications of violence, that's

1022
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:57,100
such a more responsible way of 
treating it. 

1023
00:52:57,100 --> 00:52:59,800
But yes, actually, it was 
surprising and there's a long 

1024
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:03,700
tradition of this attitude from 
the violence and in the Greek 

1025
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:08,300
Plays to Shakespeare to all. 
There's always been violence in 

1026
00:53:08,300 --> 00:53:11,700
art, but this was not a 
gratuitous violence. 

1027
00:53:11,700 --> 00:53:14,800
Yeah, Joker. 
And in fact, what I saw finally 

1028
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:17,000
I got so upset of listening to 
people saying they weren't going

1029
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,300
to go to it. 
I started insisting that they 

1030
00:53:19,300 --> 00:53:21,600
had to go see this film or I 
wasn't going to talk to them. 

1031
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:23,600
Yeah, it's just hard way that 
when people have an opinion and 

1032
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:25,500
then they hadn't seen it. 
So that's always a difficult 

1033
00:53:25,500 --> 00:53:26,900
thing to talk about. 
That's what I meant about 

1034
00:53:26,900 --> 00:53:28,000
earlier about those thick 
pieces. 

1035
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,500
They are writing think pieces 
about it without having seen it 

1036
00:53:30,500 --> 00:53:33,500
and I'm like, you can kill a 
movie after you've seen it, but 

1037
00:53:33,500 --> 00:53:36,900
you Laughter, you know, I read 
some of those pieces and they 

1038
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:40,900
they felt that they were doing 
something Noble by. 

1039
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:42,200
They didn't see anything wrong 
with a. 

1040
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:43,900
I'm not going to see this but 
I'm going to tell you, yeah, 

1041
00:53:43,900 --> 00:53:48,000
well I think about it, right? 
And it was it was there is even 

1042
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,300
another layer that was more 
offensive which was the people 

1043
00:53:50,300 --> 00:53:54,300
coming out saying, look, I this 
movie shouldn't exist because 

1044
00:53:54,700 --> 00:53:58,600
while I could handle it and 
while I understand it, the 

1045
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:01,200
masses won't understand and 
won't be able to handle, you 

1046
00:54:01,207 --> 00:54:03,600
know, I mean like arrogance. 
Yes, it's just trash. 

1047
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:06,200
Are you crazy? 
Yeah, but we realize what you 

1048
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:08,600
were saying about comic book 
fans that we thought might be. 

1049
00:54:08,700 --> 00:54:12,300
We'd be pilloried as you say 
from from the that Community. 

1050
00:54:12,700 --> 00:54:14,000
What? 
I think it. 

1051
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:18,500
What it what I was did a talk a 
Q&A at the wga about a week or 

1052
00:54:18,500 --> 00:54:23,000
two ago and and what you realize
is, they'd been eating processed

1053
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:26,300
food for so long. 
And, and like, we keep giving 

1054
00:54:26,300 --> 00:54:29,000
them and you know how Hollywood 
Works Hollywood. 

1055
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:31,400
Works. 
The, the audience dictates what 

1056
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:33,700
gets made because if they show 
up to it, they're just going 

1057
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:35,500
Make more of it. 
The I mean, right. 

1058
00:54:35,500 --> 00:54:40,800
So there's been this sort of 
this direction where it's been 

1059
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:44,400
just kind of processed food over
and over the same thing and it's

1060
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:47,500
safe and we sort of gave them 
something different and because 

1061
00:54:47,500 --> 00:54:49,600
we were able to keep that budget
down, we were able to take that 

1062
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:51,800
chance and you realize, oh, 
wait, they want it. 

1063
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:55,300
So I said to The Writers, Guild,
I was saying whether you like 

1064
00:54:55,300 --> 00:54:59,100
joke or not, doesn't matter, but
you can use Joker when you go 

1065
00:54:59,100 --> 00:55:00,800
and you pitch movies at the 
Studio's. 

1066
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:03,100
When you're talking when they 
tell you, no, it's too violent 

1067
00:55:03,100 --> 00:55:05,000
or know it. 
It's R-rated and it's going to 

1068
00:55:05,008 --> 00:55:09,500
there's a ceiling or or it's 
weird like use Joker point to 

1069
00:55:09,500 --> 00:55:12,600
Joker and, and let that be part 
of your Arsenal to push 

1070
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:14,500
different ideas through, you 
know? 

1071
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:17,200
Yes. 
Well, this is this is why I felt

1072
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:20,800
so good about the fact that I 
was seeing something that we no 

1073
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:24,000
longer get to see films. 
Like the ones you mentioned, 

1074
00:55:24,100 --> 00:55:28,700
Taxi Driver, Dog, Day Afternoon 
Network, Cuckoo's Nest. 

1075
00:55:28,700 --> 00:55:34,500
And if this film does anything, 
if it does trigger A studio in 

1076
00:55:34,500 --> 00:55:38,300
the saying, you know what, you 
know, the audience is actually a

1077
00:55:38,300 --> 00:55:41,900
lot more, you know, intelligent 
than we give them credit for and

1078
00:55:41,900 --> 00:55:45,800
they're willing to handle things
and they don't just need to be 

1079
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:49,600
fed. 
The pre-processed cotton candy 

1080
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:52,000
sugar foods that we've been 
giving them. 

1081
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:56,000
They actually like, they like 
something they had substance and

1082
00:55:56,200 --> 00:56:01,600
that's what this film. 
I mean, it I just, I let I wrote

1083
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:03,000
I wrote this on my Facebook 
page. 

1084
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:08,800
I said if you're thinking that 
you're being irresponsible, if 

1085
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:13,700
you go see this film, the truth 
is you're being irresponsible. 

1086
00:56:13,700 --> 00:56:17,400
If you don't go see the film 
because we need to be talking 

1087
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:20,500
about this film and what? 
It's raising I don't mean just 

1088
00:56:20,500 --> 00:56:24,300
I'm not talking just a political
statement but right from the 

1089
00:56:24,300 --> 00:56:29,000
beginning of the film Joaquin, 
Phoenix's Joker is he's putting 

1090
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:34,500
on his his clown, paint you. 
And what is Doing it for. 

1091
00:56:34,500 --> 00:56:38,300
He's got some shit job that 
probably pays them under the 

1092
00:56:38,300 --> 00:56:39,800
table. 
Does not even making minimum 

1093
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:43,700
wage and he's out on some New 
Jersey. 

1094
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:46,200
Well, Gotham street, but we 
should have a Newark. 

1095
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:49,200
Yeah, see. 
But is Gotham is God. 

1096
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:50,700
It's our version of Gotham's 
version. 

1097
00:56:50,700 --> 00:56:53,300
We call it Gotham Square. 
Our version of Times Square and 

1098
00:56:53,300 --> 00:56:54,000
God. 
Okay? 

1099
00:56:54,500 --> 00:56:59,400
So, yeah, so Gotham Square would
be in Newark but and he's, you 

1100
00:56:59,408 --> 00:57:01,100
know, you've seen those guys on 
the roadside where they're 

1101
00:57:01,100 --> 00:57:03,600
flipping an arrow or a sign 
around to get you to come. 

1102
00:57:03,700 --> 00:57:08,200
In to buy a used car, or if 
there's some deal at the Verizon

1103
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:15,100
store, that's what he's doing. 
And the sign, it's the sign says

1104
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:20,200
everything must go, right? 
Then that was my moment where 

1105
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:22,200
I'm glad you recognize that a 
while. 

1106
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:25,700
I was like, wow, yes. 
Oh Mike where it now. 

1107
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:28,900
Everything must go. 
That's that's what the theme 

1108
00:57:28,900 --> 00:57:30,700
we're starting with. 
That is literally the now I 

1109
00:57:30,700 --> 00:57:31,700
don't know what's going to 
happen. 

1110
00:57:31,700 --> 00:57:33,600
Exactly. 
Which is the best movie ever. 

1111
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:36,100
We're saying it about a lot of 
things, we're saying it also 

1112
00:57:36,100 --> 00:57:39,600
about your preconceived notions 
of good versus evil that must go

1113
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:42,300
or saying it about the, the 
system. 

1114
00:57:42,300 --> 00:57:44,300
I mean what the movie ultimately
becomes about. 

1115
00:57:44,300 --> 00:57:47,800
We have to turn this around, you
know, everything must go. 

1116
00:57:48,700 --> 00:57:52,200
Yeah, that's and I, and his 
sanity, quite frankly, yes. 

1117
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:57,900
Right and not to make my second 
Greek play reference, but 

1118
00:57:57,900 --> 00:58:01,100
essentially the course of the 
film where the course comes out 

1119
00:58:01,100 --> 00:58:04,100
at the beginning, to sort of 
tell you, here is this You know,

1120
00:58:04,100 --> 00:58:08,600
this Parable, this Fable we're 
going to enact for you. 

1121
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:14,600
Here is Joker spinning, a sign 
around saying everything must 

1122
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:17,200
go. 
And right then you're like, oh 

1123
00:58:17,500 --> 00:58:25,200
yeah, that's actually right. 
And that's scary and and wait, I

1124
00:58:25,207 --> 00:58:27,900
don't want everything to go, but
wait a minute everything is 

1125
00:58:27,900 --> 00:58:31,600
going pick whatever subject you 
want, right? 

1126
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:33,600
Right. 
Everything that everything. 

1127
00:58:33,700 --> 00:58:36,500
That we believed a president, 
should be gone. 

1128
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:41,000
Everything that we were told 
that we had till 2040 to fix the

1129
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:43,300
climate change problem. 
Now, we've just been told we 

1130
00:58:43,300 --> 00:58:45,400
have less than 12 years right 
gone. 

1131
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:48,400
Right. 
If yes if that you know and in 

1132
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:51,400
fact I have friends who think 
that it's it's too late. 

1133
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:55,500
Yeah I've spoken to people to as
well like so so everything must 

1134
00:58:55,500 --> 00:58:58,000
go not only by the end of the 
film. 

1135
00:58:58,000 --> 00:58:59,900
Are you feeling Everything? 
Must Go? 

1136
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:03,500
Everything may be gone, 
everything went everywhere. 

1137
00:59:03,700 --> 00:59:05,900
Thing went and let's see what 
happens now. 

1138
00:59:05,900 --> 00:59:08,600
Yeah, and it's so in. 
So here's this character that 

1139
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:12,500
Joaquin is playing. 
Arthur, let's reflect Arthur 

1140
00:59:12,500 --> 00:59:16,300
Fleck and you know he just wants
a break. 

1141
00:59:16,700 --> 00:59:19,800
He just wants to he why? 
He loves watching the comedians 

1142
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:24,400
on TV, he wants a shot at it. 
He was told his whole life that 

1143
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:26,700
his purpose was to bring joy and
laughter to the world. 

1144
00:59:26,700 --> 00:59:29,200
He's told that by his mother, he
believes he has a purpose. 

1145
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:33,300
He has this horrible Affliction 
where he laughs, you know, a 

1146
00:59:33,300 --> 00:59:35,400
sort of You do bulbar effect 
where he where he we are. 

1147
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:37,400
Just sometimes breaks out 
laughing in the middle of a 

1148
00:59:37,408 --> 00:59:39,900
situation which is something he 
can't control. 

1149
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:43,900
And yet disturbs people or do 
people find it right. 

1150
00:59:43,900 --> 00:59:47,400
You know why that's evil 
sounding but it is a physical 

1151
00:59:47,500 --> 00:59:49,700
Affliction it's a real thing. 
Yeah. 

1152
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:54,800
And but then you also begin to 
see as his back story unfolds 

1153
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:59,600
that the mental illness, that 
he's suffering that it's not his

1154
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:02,600
fault, right? 
That is part of what happened to

1155
01:00:02,607 --> 01:00:03,800
him as a child. 
Old. 

1156
01:00:04,100 --> 01:00:05,600
And then what happened to him 
later? 

1157
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:08,400
And and you see, he's struggling
with it. 

1158
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:14,100
And you see this so-called super
villain as sought help through 

1159
01:00:14,100 --> 01:00:18,700
the social service system, to 
get to speak to a counselor to 

1160
01:00:18,700 --> 01:00:21,500
try and, and that's a hard 
thing. 

1161
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:25,200
If you've known people who have 
certain mental illnesses, it's 

1162
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:29,500
very hard to self diagnose and 
the, the idea of them going on 

1163
01:00:29,500 --> 01:00:32,800
their own without intervention. 
Yeah, to get help. 

1164
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:36,900
Yeah. 
And then the mayor of Gotham 

1165
01:00:37,900 --> 01:00:39,700
says, too many of these Social 
Services. 

1166
01:00:39,700 --> 01:00:42,700
We had a right, gotta save our 
money to give tax cuts to the 

1167
01:00:42,700 --> 01:00:43,500
rich. 
Yeah. 

1168
01:00:43,500 --> 01:00:46,700
And then, boom, his counselor 
has to tell him. 

1169
01:00:46,700 --> 01:00:48,900
I'm sorry, you can't come here 
anymore because we don't have 

1170
01:00:48,900 --> 01:00:51,500
the money or shutting down the. 
So, shutting down, shutting down

1171
01:00:51,500 --> 01:00:55,600
the social services and, and 
then he loses his medication, 

1172
01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:56,300
and he loses. 
Yeah. 

1173
01:00:56,300 --> 01:00:58,600
And so, take away the 
pharmaceutical company all 

1174
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:02,200
whole, the whole thing. 
And and, and I mean the movie 

1175
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:06,100
takes place in 1981. 
One, but we wrote it in 2016. 

1176
01:01:06,100 --> 01:01:10,200
The movie isn't for us. 
It was a wee when I say us and 

1177
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:12,800
when Scott silver and I sat down
to write it, it was really 

1178
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:14,800
about. 
Let's make something meaningful,

1179
01:01:14,900 --> 01:01:17,000
let's make something that 
addresses this loss of 

1180
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:19,300
compassion that's going on in 
the world. 

1181
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:23,400
You know that we all know that 
that's been happening. 

1182
01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:25,800
It's not even just Donald Trump.
It's been happening for years 

1183
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:28,900
but it's certainly been 
exaggerated and Amplified in the

1184
01:01:28,900 --> 01:01:30,500
last few years. 
That's right. 

1185
01:01:30,500 --> 01:01:33,800
And this idea of the way we 
treat. 

1186
01:01:34,100 --> 01:01:38,100
People that are different than 
us and that's how it that's sort

1187
01:01:38,100 --> 01:01:39,900
of where the themes. 
All started It, ultimately ended

1188
01:01:39,900 --> 01:01:41,500
up becoming as he said about 
childhood. 

1189
01:01:41,500 --> 01:01:44,900
Trauma, it became about lack of 
love, you know, Arthur is No 

1190
01:01:44,900 --> 01:01:48,300
Love in his life. 
If somebody had just put their 

1191
01:01:48,300 --> 01:01:50,200
hand on his shoulder, if 
somebody just treat him a little

1192
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:55,100
bit differently, you know it in 
the most productive way. 

1193
01:01:55,100 --> 01:01:56,600
It's about the power of 
kindness. 

1194
01:01:57,300 --> 01:02:00,400
If you watch the film and you 
walk out and you don't realize 

1195
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:03,300
it's not about the power of 
kindness, then you're just 

1196
01:02:03,300 --> 01:02:05,100
missing. 
What we're trying to do there 

1197
01:02:06,500 --> 01:02:09,300
and how it could affect people. 
And I've had so many people 

1198
01:02:09,300 --> 01:02:13,000
write me emails, reach out to me
at screenings and say, you know,

1199
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:15,900
I have a sister that suffers 
from schizophrenia and my whole 

1200
01:02:15,900 --> 01:02:19,200
life, it's been a burden on me 
and now I realize what it is for

1201
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:21,700
her and I'm gonna call her 
tonight and treat her 

1202
01:02:21,700 --> 01:02:23,100
differently. 
And I'm going to, you know, like

1203
01:02:23,100 --> 01:02:26,900
it's really had a profound 
effect on a lot of people that 

1204
01:02:26,900 --> 01:02:29,500
live with people that have 
mental illness and actually 

1205
01:02:29,500 --> 01:02:33,200
people with mental illness. 
You know, there's somebody that 

1206
01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:37,000
came up to me at a The screening
and I think we were in Paris. 

1207
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:39,900
And said the thing that really 
resonated for them was when he 

1208
01:02:39,900 --> 01:02:42,700
set when in his journal he 
writes you know the worst part 

1209
01:02:42,700 --> 01:02:46,400
about having a mental illness is
people expect you to behave as 

1210
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:52,400
if you don't and that is so 
encapsulated for them for that 

1211
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:54,100
person's what it feels like the 
middle. 

1212
01:02:54,100 --> 01:02:57,200
Is, if you have a broken leg, 
people help you out of the taxi 

1213
01:02:57,200 --> 01:02:59,700
people, help you up the stairs, 
they carry your bag. 

1214
01:02:59,700 --> 01:03:02,400
If you have a mental illness, 
your broken inside, nobody sees 

1215
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:04,700
that. 
So, people just Expect you to 

1216
01:03:04,700 --> 01:03:06,200
but you look at you, you look 
fine. 

1217
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:09,000
Why are you so sad? 
You know, right, expect you to 

1218
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:11,700
behave as if you don't have it. 
You know, it's a very it's a 

1219
01:03:11,707 --> 01:03:15,600
very powerful thing. 
So it's spoken to people. 

1220
01:03:16,100 --> 01:03:18,200
I mean after all that stuff 
we're talking about all the all 

1221
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:20,800
the, all the things that came 
out and all the things that felt

1222
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:23,600
like they were obstacles. 
It was able to cut through all 

1223
01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:27,300
that noise and cut through the 
fog of just, every movie has to 

1224
01:03:27,300 --> 01:03:29,800
kind of be that comes out, has 
to cut through the fog of 

1225
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:34,100
podcasts and zillions of movies 
and TV shows and and No 

1226
01:03:34,100 --> 01:03:36,000
resonate. 
Some of them can't know. 

1227
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:38,600
I know and are destroyed by it. 
Yeah. 

1228
01:03:38,700 --> 01:03:43,000
And I think, the reason yours 
wasn't is, I think I've and I 

1229
01:03:43,100 --> 01:03:45,800
say this when I go to talk to 
filmmakers or people are 

1230
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:49,500
studying filmmaking or whatever,
your most important job is to 

1231
01:03:49,500 --> 01:03:50,900
make it great film. 
Yeah. 

1232
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:54,000
Because if you make a great 
film, it will cut through and it

1233
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:57,600
will be a shield against 
anything coming at it because 

1234
01:03:57,600 --> 01:04:00,200
what they can't say, is this 
film sucks. 

1235
01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:01,800
Well, they did that to joke or 
two. 

1236
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:03,500
I mean, we did get a lot of that
people. 

1237
01:04:03,500 --> 01:04:04,700
Yeah. 
Just dismissing. 

1238
01:04:04,700 --> 01:04:06,900
I mean, like, critics was just 
saying saw it. 

1239
01:04:06,900 --> 01:04:10,100
And yeah and and it was like a 
little bit discouraging where 

1240
01:04:10,100 --> 01:04:13,000
you just, you know, but I think 
that's as I now, you should have

1241
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:14,700
not been by this point in your 
career. 

1242
01:04:14,700 --> 01:04:16,000
No, I don't. 
We know that. 

1243
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:17,900
Don't we know. 
Now everybody to hear. 

1244
01:04:17,900 --> 01:04:19,800
Yeah, of course. 
And you've got Rotten Tomatoes. 

1245
01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:22,800
Yeah, even that it's a suit. 
You get quote unquote. 

1246
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:24,500
Friends at go. 
Can you believe what this New 

1247
01:04:24,500 --> 01:04:26,800
York Times guy said, you're 
like, I thought you're my 

1248
01:04:26,800 --> 01:04:28,100
friend. 
Why are you sending me this 

1249
01:04:28,100 --> 01:04:29,500
note? 
I know, right? 

1250
01:04:29,500 --> 01:04:35,100
Insane. 
Yes, so so The film as the film 

1251
01:04:35,100 --> 01:04:41,500
progresses the story progresses,
they have knots in Gotham 

1252
01:04:42,600 --> 01:04:48,600
decided to revolt. 
I was at a Q&A with you a couple

1253
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:55,200
weeks ago for Joker and someone 
in the audience asked you that 

1254
01:04:55,200 --> 01:04:58,600
woman holding the sign resist. 
Did that was that just an 

1255
01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:02,300
accident? 
And you said no, there are no 

1256
01:05:02,300 --> 01:05:05,400
accidents and you make a movie. 
That's right somebody just 

1257
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:08,500
doesn't wander on the right side
with a sign that says resist, 

1258
01:05:08,500 --> 01:05:11,600
right. 
But but basically The Barbarians

1259
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:15,200
is, as they are looked upon by 
their wealthy are at the gate 

1260
01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:20,200
and they are rising up and and 
they think Joker is their 

1261
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:23,600
leader. 
He has no clue and doesn't want 

1262
01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:28,500
to really lead anything, but 
they might come up with, like, a

1263
01:05:28,500 --> 01:05:29,700
mistaken. 
I got, I do. 

1264
01:05:29,700 --> 01:05:32,200
Yeah, an accidental icon. 
Yeah, for them. 

1265
01:05:32,300 --> 01:05:33,700
Well, there's that, of course, 
the Great Sea. 

1266
01:05:33,900 --> 01:05:37,600
In the world, Charlie Chaplin 
film, where he's this Lumber 

1267
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:40,600
Truck goes by and they've got a 
red flag hanging out the back. 

1268
01:05:40,600 --> 01:05:43,900
So car doesn't run into you the 
flag drops and Charlie Chaplin. 

1269
01:05:43,900 --> 01:05:45,900
So he dropped the flag. 
I'm going to pick it up and run 

1270
01:05:45,900 --> 01:05:47,800
after them and the right around 
the corner. 

1271
01:05:47,800 --> 01:05:49,400
Comes this big demonstration, 
right? 

1272
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:52,400
And if you see Charlie, Chaplin 
way down, the red flag, right? 

1273
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:56,400
And the police think he's the 
leader of the demonstration, but

1274
01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:59,100
but it, but so there is this 
Uprising. 

1275
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:07,300
Yeah, in the film and, and Bruce
Wayne's father who's running for

1276
01:06:07,300 --> 01:06:12,300
Thomas, Wayne mayor, Thomas 
Wayne in a trump-like trench 

1277
01:06:12,300 --> 01:06:17,400
coat, which I'm sure again, was 
just an accident and and who 

1278
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:19,900
really if there is a villain in 
this film? 

1279
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:23,600
It is what will later become 
better? 

1280
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:25,000
This child is going to be 
Batman. 

1281
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:28,800
Yeah, but his his father I 
suppose if he would if there was

1282
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:31,000
a village I would think what 
bill is probably the system 

1283
01:06:31,000 --> 01:06:33,100
right in the movie. 
It's not that much him. 

1284
01:06:33,100 --> 01:06:36,300
He might be the human embodiment
of it to you tonight, people. 

1285
01:06:36,300 --> 01:06:38,900
But yeah. 
But he shits all over Joker. 

1286
01:06:38,900 --> 01:06:41,300
Yeah. 
On Chisholm right in the face. 

1287
01:06:41,300 --> 01:06:46,100
Yes. 
The and but he doesn't deserve 

1288
01:06:46,100 --> 01:06:47,700
to die. 
No. 

1289
01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:52,900
But the uprising, you know, he 
gets he gets trapped in an alley

1290
01:06:54,200 --> 01:06:59,400
so it's very I think a lot of 
people feel and I think people 

1291
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:03,800
watching this movie It actually 
gets, I think kind of quiet in 

1292
01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:05,600
the theater because you have the
sense of. 

1293
01:07:05,900 --> 01:07:08,700
Yeah. 
What is going to happen when 

1294
01:07:08,700 --> 01:07:11,300
people say I've taken enough and
I don't want to take any more 

1295
01:07:11,300 --> 01:07:13,700
but when shit goes down, when 
shit goes down. 

1296
01:07:13,700 --> 01:07:17,500
And what, and what we have seen 
in the last few years, and when 

1297
01:07:17,500 --> 01:07:21,500
the 2016 election is that those 
people who are the, you know, 

1298
01:07:21,500 --> 01:07:25,100
the disaffected least, the white
people who were poor. 

1299
01:07:26,100 --> 01:07:30,200
We're going to rise up and give 
us what we've got not because 

1300
01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:32,300
they were necessarily. 
Fans of Donald Trump. 

1301
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:35,000
He just look like you get the 
president you deserve. 

1302
01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:36,500
Yeah. 
Basically said yeah. 

1303
01:07:36,500 --> 01:07:39,000
As in our movie you get the 
villain you deserve when the 

1304
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:43,800
president you deserve who's also
a an accidental icon in a way 

1305
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:46,700
for that. 
You know, he's become you know 

1306
01:07:46,700 --> 01:07:48,800
because it's very funny because 
a lot of people make that direct

1307
01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:52,200
connection that you just did 
with Thomas Wayne trenchcoat 

1308
01:07:52,200 --> 01:07:54,400
Donald Trump. 
But I would argue there's a way 

1309
01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:57,200
to look at this movie and 
realize that joker at the end of

1310
01:07:57,200 --> 01:08:00,900
this movie, is more playing that
part that he's standing on that.

1311
01:08:01,100 --> 01:08:04,500
Are looking around at these 
thousands of people cheering him

1312
01:08:04,500 --> 01:08:08,600
on and realizing. 
How did this happen and sort of 

1313
01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:11,700
puts his arms out and goes. 
All right, let's do this. 

1314
01:08:11,700 --> 01:08:16,200
You know, there's, it's a funny 
movie because it really did it 

1315
01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:18,500
really depends on where your 
head's at I've had, I've had 

1316
01:08:18,500 --> 01:08:21,800
people to have both sort of 
reactions to it, really the lens

1317
01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:23,300
it, which you view it through 
is. 

1318
01:08:23,300 --> 01:08:25,899
And, and that's what's been so 
polarizing about the movie. 

1319
01:08:25,899 --> 01:08:29,300
And so divisive about the 
movies, it just has to do with 

1320
01:08:29,300 --> 01:08:30,899
the lens with which you view it 
through. 

1321
01:08:31,100 --> 01:08:34,200
So you bring up the scene at the
end and he's on top of the car 

1322
01:08:34,200 --> 01:08:38,800
and, and his hands are 
outstretched and, you know, in 

1323
01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:43,500
the form of the Jesus, because 
your home until of yes, follow 

1324
01:08:43,500 --> 01:08:47,000
me. 
So begs the question. 

1325
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:50,399
I'm sure you've been asked this.
You know, it's does, is that the

1326
01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:53,399
are you telling us then that 
there's going to be a sequel. 

1327
01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:59,600
I wasn't really, you know, it, 
but of course I'd be lying if I 

1328
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:02,600
said a movie that cost, In 
dollars made a billion dollars, 

1329
01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:05,100
the studio doesn't come to you 
and goes, okay, how are we going

1330
01:09:05,100 --> 01:09:07,300
to figure this out? 
You got to figure it out, you 

1331
01:09:07,300 --> 01:09:09,399
know, would you and Joaquin? 
Do it and Joaquin and I have 

1332
01:09:09,399 --> 01:09:11,600
spoken about it. 
And I've said this before, it's 

1333
01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:14,300
not necessary breaking news, but
it would really be about 

1334
01:09:14,300 --> 01:09:17,300
figuring out. 
If we could find something that 

1335
01:09:17,300 --> 01:09:20,399
had real thematic residents, the
way this did, because I really 

1336
01:09:20,399 --> 01:09:23,000
it be, I don't want to go make a
movie now, about the clown 

1337
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:25,500
Prince of Crime, it's never been
interesting to us. 

1338
01:09:26,200 --> 01:09:28,500
That wasn't why we got into this
to start, right? 

1339
01:09:28,500 --> 01:09:30,899
We want we're not on your way to
making Deathwish cetera. 

1340
01:09:31,100 --> 01:09:33,200
Right? 
Right, we we wanted. 

1341
01:09:33,200 --> 01:09:36,300
We wanted to have some kind of 
thematic resonance if we didn't,

1342
01:09:36,300 --> 01:09:39,200
if we could crack that and Scott
silver and I who would do it 

1343
01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:41,000
together. 
If we could, if we could give it

1344
01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:43,000
that, we might be interested in 
it. 

1345
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:45,200
I have a filmmaker, a director 
friend of mine. 

1346
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:48,100
Who said to me? 
What are you doing here? 

1347
01:09:48,100 --> 01:09:50,000
I saw my to think I know what do
you mean you is, why aren't you 

1348
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:52,200
home writing the sequel? 
And I said, I don't know, I 

1349
01:09:52,207 --> 01:09:53,200
don't know if we're going to do 
it. 

1350
01:09:53,200 --> 01:09:56,100
It feels like, you know, really,
you know, it's kind of beautiful

1351
01:09:56,100 --> 01:09:59,100
that it exists on its own. 
And we kind of we got through by

1352
01:09:59,100 --> 01:10:01,800
the skin of our teeth, kind of 
thing, and he goes Here's what 

1353
01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:05,900
you're not realizing he was your
movie is essentially a First 

1354
01:10:05,900 --> 01:10:08,100
Act. 
He goes the the movies, such a 

1355
01:10:08,100 --> 01:10:10,400
slow burn and it's great. 
That it's a slow burn, but it's 

1356
01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:14,000
really that car. 
That's your end of the First 

1357
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:16,100
Act. 
I want to see two acts of Joker.

1358
01:10:16,100 --> 01:10:17,600
Now, I want to see what the fuck
happens. 

1359
01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:18,900
I thought that was an 
interesting way of looking at. 

1360
01:10:18,900 --> 01:10:20,700
Yes. 
So I want to encourage you to 

1361
01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:22,900
don't listen to the art, snobs, 
right? 

1362
01:10:23,100 --> 01:10:26,100
Who are say, oh, we just doing 
this to make money now. 

1363
01:10:26,100 --> 01:10:29,700
No, no, you've made this 
masterpiece. 

1364
01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:32,800
You've made a film that. 
At when they write about this 

1365
01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:38,000
era that were in this film will 
be referenced in the way that 

1366
01:10:38,100 --> 01:10:39,600
films in the past. 
Right. 

1367
01:10:39,600 --> 01:10:44,200
Were referenced about about 
there are has this will happen 

1368
01:10:44,200 --> 01:10:49,900
with with Joker and but you're 
right that that it really is a 

1369
01:10:49,900 --> 01:10:53,400
First Act ending. 
And so now the burden on you and

1370
01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:58,200
Scott and Joaquin is now we need
to see your godfather to write 

1371
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:01,700
easier said than done, right? 
Because Equals in and of 

1372
01:11:01,708 --> 01:11:04,800
themselves are not evil things. 
You can name the sequels that 

1373
01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:10,300
were arguably even better right 
than the first one Godfather to.

1374
01:11:10,300 --> 01:11:14,900
I'd be the one for the wider 
audience, listening to this Star

1375
01:11:14,900 --> 01:11:19,800
Trek to wrapping Wrath of Khan. 
I haven't seen it is right, 

1376
01:11:19,800 --> 01:11:25,400
because you don't watch comic 
book type movies, but but no, 

1377
01:11:25,400 --> 01:11:31,300
but there are those few examples
where and, and yes, it's Will be

1378
01:11:31,300 --> 01:11:36,200
a challenge to you but what we 
already know, first of all you 

1379
01:11:36,200 --> 01:11:38,000
didn't need to do this. 
Hmm. 

1380
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:40,700
You I read. 
What you the deal you did with 

1381
01:11:40,700 --> 01:11:42,800
hangover, right? 
You want to make that movie so 

1382
01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:45,500
bad and they didn't want to make
it so bad. 

1383
01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:48,900
So you said fuck it, I'll do it 
for practically for free. 

1384
01:11:49,100 --> 01:11:53,700
No literally for free. 
Oh okay, literally for free, if 

1385
01:11:53,700 --> 01:11:55,600
it makes money, pay me then, 
right? 

1386
01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:59,400
And of course it made a 
gazillion billion dollars, you 

1387
01:11:59,400 --> 01:12:00,500
know? 
I mean the three of them I'm 

1388
01:12:00,500 --> 01:12:02,400
sure it made. 
Billion or two to the three 

1389
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:04,600
movies did ya? 
Bill 6 worldwide. 

1390
01:12:04,600 --> 01:12:09,400
Yeah okay so so you don't have 
to disclose your financial 

1391
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:12,900
situation here but I would guess
if you made that deal and your 

1392
01:12:12,900 --> 01:12:16,700
pay was on the percentage of the
backend you you made so much 

1393
01:12:16,700 --> 01:12:18,900
money that you didn't need to 
make Joker. 

1394
01:12:19,100 --> 01:12:21,600
Oh no, I did not do joker as a 
money grow. 

1395
01:12:21,600 --> 01:12:23,400
Yeah. 
I mean we actually know you were

1396
01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:26,000
having a cigarette on the 
sidewalk outside. 

1397
01:12:26,000 --> 01:12:30,500
Grauman's Chinese Theater right 
in LA and an idea comes to you 

1398
01:12:30,500 --> 01:12:33,100
from looking at At a fucking 
billboard, right? 

1399
01:12:33,300 --> 01:12:35,900
You know that what if what if 
and you put the Twist on it, 

1400
01:12:35,900 --> 01:12:38,200
right in your head? 
This is actually this is a 

1401
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:40,200
commercial offer encouraging 
people to smoke. 

1402
01:12:40,700 --> 01:12:44,400
But but seriously, by the time 
that Warner Brothers guy in the 

1403
01:12:44,400 --> 01:12:47,100
theater had come out, he had 
already spoken to the Warner 

1404
01:12:47,100 --> 01:12:49,300
Brothers guy that you talked to 
on the phone, right? 

1405
01:12:49,300 --> 01:12:51,000
And they were smart enough to 
say. 

1406
01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:54,000
Wow, this is a really brilliant 
idea. 

1407
01:12:54,100 --> 01:12:55,900
Yeah, because just to go back to
that really quick. 

1408
01:12:55,900 --> 01:12:58,400
It wasn't one idea what I 
pitched him was, we should start

1409
01:12:58,400 --> 01:13:00,200
a label. 
We should start a label where we

1410
01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:03,000
get great. 
Actors, other directors, Joker 

1411
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:06,400
can be the first one, but let's 
do a label called DC black where

1412
01:13:06,400 --> 01:13:08,700
we make stripped-down, no CGI. 
No. 

1413
01:13:08,700 --> 01:13:12,600
Spandex quote unquote comic book
movies but we do Deep dive 

1414
01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:15,800
character studies. 
And I literally said, get so and

1415
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:18,700
so to do this character, I don't
want to name them because I've 

1416
01:13:18,700 --> 01:13:20,100
never told these directors, 
right? 

1417
01:13:20,100 --> 01:13:22,200
You get. 
So, and so to do that character,

1418
01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:25,100
and we started with Joker, and 
we start an entire label. 

1419
01:13:25,200 --> 01:13:27,900
I go, why wouldn't you do? 
Why are you instead of trying to

1420
01:13:27,900 --> 01:13:30,600
be more Ville, do something that
Marvel can't do? 

1421
01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:33,900
Which is like an R-rated strip 
down, that Disney can't make 

1422
01:13:33,900 --> 01:13:35,400
those movies. 
So instead of trying to emulate 

1423
01:13:35,400 --> 01:13:38,700
them, go over here. 
But by the way, you can still do

1424
01:13:38,700 --> 01:13:40,800
your normal DC movies have two 
bites of the Apple. 

1425
01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:43,900
So to me, it was a very like so 
that was the thing that they got

1426
01:13:43,900 --> 01:13:46,400
excited about. 
Was this other hole label? 

1427
01:13:46,400 --> 01:13:49,100
That ended up going away when 
the regime change has happened. 

1428
01:13:49,100 --> 01:13:52,100
And they started saying, and I 
understand why they did it now, 

1429
01:13:52,100 --> 01:13:54,400
we're going to complicate all 
these different worlds. 

1430
01:13:54,400 --> 01:13:57,100
Let's just if we feel like doing
a movie like this will do, it 

1431
01:13:57,100 --> 01:13:58,700
doesn't need its own label and 
blah, blah blah. 

1432
01:13:58,700 --> 01:14:01,500
But that whole, when he came out
of the theater, And goes. 

1433
01:14:01,500 --> 01:14:03,100
Wow, I want to talk to you ride 
with me. 

1434
01:14:03,100 --> 01:14:04,600
It was about this idea of the 
label. 

1435
01:14:04,600 --> 01:14:07,300
Not just this idea of one movie.
Does that make sense? 

1436
01:14:07,300 --> 01:14:08,800
Yeah. 
Wow, yeah. 

1437
01:14:08,800 --> 01:14:10,100
So that was where it all came 
from. 

1438
01:14:10,100 --> 01:14:13,300
Yeah, that's wow. 
That's even more more amazing 

1439
01:14:13,300 --> 01:14:16,600
story. 
I just want to ask you because 

1440
01:14:16,600 --> 01:14:19,400
we haven't talked about Joaquin 
and they incredible performance.

1441
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:25,100
What did that take out of him? 
I can't that must have been so 

1442
01:14:25,100 --> 01:14:28,400
draining. 
It was just so, you know, I 

1443
01:14:28,400 --> 01:14:30,800
mean, I don't think he goes 
halfway on any movie, I do. 

1444
01:14:31,000 --> 01:14:32,900
Oh my God. 
Meaning I didn't matter that it 

1445
01:14:32,900 --> 01:14:35,500
was that it was a bigger movie 
than he done recently. 

1446
01:14:35,800 --> 01:14:40,700
This guy just goes all-in and 
gives it his all and takes it 

1447
01:14:40,700 --> 01:14:43,400
very seriously. 
And we talked about it, a ton 

1448
01:14:43,400 --> 01:14:45,600
before we started and of course,
while we were shooting. 

1449
01:14:45,900 --> 01:14:51,300
So it was, you know, it was a 
lot, but he also has said since 

1450
01:14:51,300 --> 01:14:54,100
I've done ton of President press
with him, you know, it was the 

1451
01:14:54,100 --> 01:14:55,900
it was the greatest experience 
of his life. 

1452
01:14:55,900 --> 01:14:59,600
I really do think this character
Joker's sort of magical in a 

1453
01:14:59,608 --> 01:15:00,900
way. 
I think it attracts people. 

1454
01:15:01,600 --> 01:15:03,700
That are in have a little bit of
Chaos in them. 

1455
01:15:03,700 --> 01:15:06,200
I think you look at Jack 
Nicholson, you look at Heath 

1456
01:15:06,200 --> 01:15:08,900
Ledger, even Jared Leto who did 
it. 

1457
01:15:09,100 --> 01:15:12,300
They all have a little chaos in 
them as actors as people, right.

1458
01:15:12,300 --> 01:15:15,500
And what can certainly fits in 
there too, and there was 

1459
01:15:15,500 --> 01:15:18,400
something about it that I 
think's really liberating for 

1460
01:15:18,400 --> 01:15:22,300
Joaquin and we just went for it.
Wow. 

1461
01:15:22,700 --> 01:15:25,200
Well, it was, it was an ordeal 
to get him to do it, you know, I

1462
01:15:25,200 --> 01:15:28,000
mean, he did get a Joaquin 
Phoenix. 

1463
01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:31,700
If you look at his last 10 years
of movies, this Doing a comic 

1464
01:15:31,700 --> 01:15:35,200
book film even though it's not 
really, but on paper, it's still

1465
01:15:35,200 --> 01:15:38,500
called Joker. 
It still says DC on the screen, 

1466
01:15:38,600 --> 01:15:41,300
he was resistant for short of 
that idea. 

1467
01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:44,900
And I spent three months of, but
his house saying no, no, no, 

1468
01:15:44,900 --> 01:15:48,800
there's a quick story. 
I said to him, I felt like I had

1469
01:15:48,800 --> 01:15:50,300
him clothes. 
I'd been up there for three 

1470
01:15:50,300 --> 01:15:53,500
months, talking about character 
talking about tone Vibe, what 

1471
01:15:53,500 --> 01:15:56,700
it's going to look like, was 
going to feel like and he goes 

1472
01:15:56,700 --> 01:16:00,500
out and we, he comes to me, I 
kind of expect him to just go, 

1473
01:16:00,500 --> 01:16:02,200
okay? 
In bubble body goes. 

1474
01:16:02,200 --> 01:16:04,800
I'm still just having trouble 
because it's still maybe if it 

1475
01:16:04,800 --> 01:16:07,300
was called Arthur. 
If we could just lose all the 

1476
01:16:07,308 --> 01:16:09,600
Joker's didn't do that and I'm 
thinking there's no way we're 

1477
01:16:09,600 --> 01:16:12,100
going to be made if it's called 
you know, like we had this is 

1478
01:16:12,100 --> 01:16:14,000
half the reason we're getting 
this thing, pushed through the 

1479
01:16:14,000 --> 01:16:18,000
system and I said I'm he goes I 
just don't know why I don't know

1480
01:16:18,000 --> 01:16:22,000
why I would do this and I said, 
you know, you're looking at the 

1481
01:16:22,000 --> 01:16:23,900
movie, the wrong way and he 
goes, what do you mean? 

1482
01:16:23,900 --> 01:16:26,900
I go, he got to think of it as 
the greatest Heist movie ever 

1483
01:16:26,900 --> 01:16:29,600
made and he was Heist movie. 
There's barely any action in 

1484
01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:30,800
this film there. 
Where's the heist? 

1485
01:16:30,900 --> 01:16:33,400
First I go, no. 
We're going to take 60 million 

1486
01:16:33,400 --> 01:16:35,300
dollars from Warner Brothers and
we're going to do whatever the 

1487
01:16:35,300 --> 01:16:39,800
fuck we want. 
I go promise you trust me. 

1488
01:16:40,400 --> 01:16:43,700
You gotta do this, right? 
And, and if anybody from 

1489
01:16:43,700 --> 01:16:45,200
Warner's is listening to us 
right now. 

1490
01:16:45,200 --> 01:16:46,600
They know that story. 
They know that. 

1491
01:16:46,600 --> 01:16:48,700
Yeah. 
They write and because it wasn't

1492
01:16:48,700 --> 01:16:51,100
like that she reverse Heist now 
because they've made so much 

1493
01:16:51,100 --> 01:16:51,900
money. 
Right. 

1494
01:16:51,900 --> 01:16:53,600
Right, right. 
I mean, I read that it was the 

1495
01:16:53,608 --> 01:16:56,900
largest grossing R-rated film 
ever ever. 

1496
01:16:57,000 --> 01:17:00,500
Yeah, wow, so yeah. 
But yeah, the idea of being 

1497
01:17:00,500 --> 01:17:03,400
like, It worked because I knew 
once we got the green light, 

1498
01:17:03,400 --> 01:17:07,300
once he was on board, they just 
from my past making movies, 

1499
01:17:07,300 --> 01:17:09,600
they're, they're an amazing 
studio to make a film that for a

1500
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:12,200
director. 
People have this idea that, you 

1501
01:17:12,200 --> 01:17:15,300
know, studios are overbearing 
and again maybe because it's my 

1502
01:17:15,300 --> 01:17:17,000
10th movie and I've made them a 
lot of money. 

1503
01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:18,700
But we were just, we were out 
there. 

1504
01:17:18,700 --> 01:17:21,100
The inmates were running the 
asylum on this movie. 

1505
01:17:21,100 --> 01:17:24,300
It often felt like we're out 
here making a student film, you 

1506
01:17:24,300 --> 01:17:25,200
know. 
Yeah. 

1507
01:17:25,300 --> 01:17:27,500
Well it doesn't look like ass to
know what, you know what I mean.

1508
01:17:27,600 --> 01:17:30,800
I know, I know what you mean 
that when you when you see Joe 

1509
01:17:30,900 --> 01:17:33,100
Joker. 
It does look like the inmates 

1510
01:17:33,100 --> 01:17:36,800
have taken over and if you're a 
filmmaker watching this you're 

1511
01:17:36,800 --> 01:17:39,300
also thinking how the hell did 
this happen, right? 

1512
01:17:39,300 --> 01:17:43,800
How did they get away with this?
Because everybody wants to play 

1513
01:17:43,800 --> 01:17:45,200
it safe. 
Everybody wants to keep their 

1514
01:17:45,200 --> 01:17:47,800
job. 
This doesn't look like a safe 

1515
01:17:47,800 --> 01:17:49,600
decision. 
This looks like a reckless 

1516
01:17:49,600 --> 01:17:53,500
decision and some of our great 
art comes from this Reckless, 

1517
01:17:53,500 --> 01:17:59,500
abandon to the rule, right? 
And what you did here and and I 

1518
01:17:59,500 --> 01:18:02,100
think that that On so many 
levels. 

1519
01:18:02,100 --> 01:18:05,200
You can come into this movie, if
you just for the entertainment 

1520
01:18:05,200 --> 01:18:09,400
value, it's there. 
If it's if it's the time that 

1521
01:18:09,400 --> 01:18:13,000
we're living in and you are you 
feel this if you just want to 

1522
01:18:13,008 --> 01:18:18,100
live in a world with more 
empathy, the film is a cry for 

1523
01:18:18,100 --> 01:18:21,300
empathy. 
I don't think anybody would 

1524
01:18:21,300 --> 01:18:24,200
disagree with we could use a bit
more of that, you know, right 

1525
01:18:24,200 --> 01:18:26,400
now. 
No, but it's also a cry for 

1526
01:18:26,400 --> 01:18:31,800
resistance and and the drags as 
they're referred to We shouldn't

1527
01:18:31,800 --> 01:18:35,300
tolerate how they're being 
treated shouldn't put up with 

1528
01:18:35,300 --> 01:18:41,000
this shouldn't have their 
Healthcare cut and and you need 

1529
01:18:41,000 --> 01:18:43,700
to see the real life 
consequences of when you when 

1530
01:18:43,700 --> 01:18:46,800
you punk on those people who are
on the lowest rungs of the 

1531
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:48,400
ladder. 
Don't just think they're going 

1532
01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:50,900
to hang on to the ladder and 
smile up and take it. 

1533
01:18:50,900 --> 01:18:53,300
And I don't know if you've seen 
the impact that it's had 

1534
01:18:53,300 --> 01:18:57,000
globally, you know, at some of 
these uprisings in Chile and 

1535
01:18:57,000 --> 01:19:01,100
Beirut and Hong Kong where 
people are donning, this Of 

1536
01:19:01,100 --> 01:19:02,100
clown mask? 
Yeah. 

1537
01:19:02,100 --> 01:19:04,100
And it's I saw in hard of it. 
Yes. 

1538
01:19:04,100 --> 01:19:09,300
And Chile was really big and in 
Beirut to and we just get it 

1539
01:19:09,300 --> 01:19:13,200
across the news where this 
symbol of dissatisfaction, for 

1540
01:19:13,200 --> 01:19:15,900
whatever their different issues 
going on in these countries. 

1541
01:19:16,200 --> 01:19:18,700
But it's become this thing of 
like, what you just said? 

1542
01:19:18,700 --> 01:19:20,700
Yeah, we're hanging on by this 
Bottom Rung. 

1543
01:19:20,700 --> 01:19:23,400
And no, we're not just going to 
hang here and it's been, you 

1544
01:19:23,407 --> 01:19:26,100
know, and if you think it's 
going to drive some of us crazy,

1545
01:19:26,100 --> 01:19:28,600
you're right, right? 
Some of us have been driven 

1546
01:19:28,600 --> 01:19:31,800
crazy, right? 
And and You know, There Will Be 

1547
01:19:31,800 --> 01:19:34,200
Blood. 
I hate you hate to say that or 

1548
01:19:34,208 --> 01:19:36,300
think that because you don't 
want that to happen but if 

1549
01:19:36,300 --> 01:19:40,000
you're so stupid that you don't 
realize that you could only shit

1550
01:19:40,000 --> 01:19:43,700
on people for so long to think 
that they're going to take it, 

1551
01:19:43,900 --> 01:19:45,600
they eventually will not take 
it. 

1552
01:19:46,100 --> 01:19:51,300
And and yes they may follow 
leaders who are insane. 

1553
01:19:51,300 --> 01:19:53,200
Right? 
Right. 

1554
01:19:53,200 --> 01:19:55,900
But they can't all be crazy, but
they can't all be crazy. 

1555
01:19:56,000 --> 01:19:57,300
No, because they're not all 
crazy. 

1556
01:19:57,300 --> 01:19:58,700
They're, they're responding to 
something. 

1557
01:19:58,700 --> 01:20:04,800
And that is the, that is the 
Deep finger that this movie puts

1558
01:20:05,200 --> 01:20:08,100
into the pulse of this country 
right now and the world. 

1559
01:20:08,600 --> 01:20:10,600
And and that's why you had a 
worldwide. 

1560
01:20:10,600 --> 01:20:13,400
I think response to this and the
way that I saw that in Hong Kong

1561
01:20:13,800 --> 01:20:18,200
where they're putting the Joker 
makeup, put on in the way that 

1562
01:20:18,300 --> 01:20:21,300
that Occupy Wall Street, people 
were putting on the Guy Fawkes 

1563
01:20:21,300 --> 01:20:23,300
masks from a for Vendetta. 
Yeah. 

1564
01:20:23,600 --> 01:20:28,200
And and it's and they want to 
scare those in charge. 

1565
01:20:28,200 --> 01:20:31,600
They don't have the money or the
weapons or the what Dever right 

1566
01:20:31,600 --> 01:20:35,200
to defeat the system, right? 
But if they can, at least scare 

1567
01:20:35,200 --> 01:20:38,000
it a little bit into, hey, just 
give us a little more. 

1568
01:20:38,100 --> 01:20:42,000
Yeah, just take your foot off 
our neck a little bit. 

1569
01:20:42,500 --> 01:20:45,300
That's all we really want. 
We just want to live our lives, 

1570
01:20:45,500 --> 01:20:47,700
you know? 
It's, I don't know. 

1571
01:20:47,700 --> 01:20:52,100
I was so profoundly moved after 
seeing this. 

1572
01:20:52,100 --> 01:20:58,500
I had to go for a long walk 
after watching this film and I 

1573
01:20:58,500 --> 01:21:00,500
mean, you've been doing it with 
your movies, your whole life, 

1574
01:21:00,500 --> 01:21:03,200
you've been Making movies that 
make a difference and that 

1575
01:21:03,200 --> 01:21:05,700
address something real. 
And there's something you 

1576
01:21:05,700 --> 01:21:09,400
realize, you know, after I've 
had a lot of success in the 

1577
01:21:09,407 --> 01:21:11,100
business but also a lot of 
opportunity. 

1578
01:21:11,300 --> 01:21:14,000
And sometimes you go, you know 
what, you get older and you 

1579
01:21:14,000 --> 01:21:16,700
realize, you could affect change
with something. 

1580
01:21:16,700 --> 01:21:20,000
You could, you could have it, an
impact effect changes, actually 

1581
01:21:20,000 --> 01:21:23,700
too big of a way of saying it, 
but but why not use in this time

1582
01:21:23,700 --> 01:21:27,100
that we're living in and this 
2016, when we're coming up with 

1583
01:21:27,100 --> 01:21:30,500
this idea, why not make 
something that means something. 

1584
01:21:30,800 --> 01:21:34,100
This is the tools we have and 
I'm given these opportunities 

1585
01:21:34,100 --> 01:21:37,400
and I think other filmmakers to,
I mean, the best protest songs 

1586
01:21:37,400 --> 01:21:40,800
written in the 70s were at the 
time when we needed them, right?

1587
01:21:40,800 --> 01:21:43,800
You can make protest movies. 
We have the power. 

1588
01:21:43,800 --> 01:21:46,600
When we, I mean, the people 
making film sometimes out like 

1589
01:21:46,600 --> 01:21:50,400
my director friends and the men 
and women that produce these 

1590
01:21:50,400 --> 01:21:54,300
movies, like why not do it like?
That is part of the thing. 

1591
01:21:54,300 --> 01:21:57,500
So Joker was born out of that, 
you know, the reason we put 

1592
01:21:57,800 --> 01:22:01,600
modern times the Charlie Chaplin
movie, we reference And times 

1593
01:22:01,700 --> 01:22:04,500
we're telling you. 
This is now generally mean, you 

1594
01:22:04,500 --> 01:22:07,100
know, everybody goes to me that 
the question I get on press 

1595
01:22:07,100 --> 01:22:09,900
junkets when they're four 
minutes is like so. 

1596
01:22:09,900 --> 01:22:12,500
Tell us, how do you go from 
Making The Hangover 2, making a 

1597
01:22:12,500 --> 01:22:14,900
joker and ago, we made the 
hangovers. 

1598
01:22:14,900 --> 01:22:17,400
Obama was President, is all a 
party. 

1599
01:22:18,800 --> 01:22:23,600
Now, like we're in like DEFCON 5
here, like should have to 

1600
01:22:23,600 --> 01:22:25,400
change. 
So, we have these opportunities 

1601
01:22:25,400 --> 01:22:28,100
artists as filmmakers as 
musicians as writers and 

1602
01:22:28,100 --> 01:22:30,700
podcasters. 
It's our job and way too. 

1603
01:22:30,800 --> 01:22:33,500
Kind of address these issues. 
So, two points to this. 

1604
01:22:33,500 --> 01:22:36,400
Number one, you know, that 
hangover was not just another. 

1605
01:22:36,400 --> 01:22:40,400
No I know but but no, but you 
did something in hangover cure. 

1606
01:22:40,400 --> 01:22:46,900
The reason why it it resonated 
so well is that again you the 

1607
01:22:46,900 --> 01:22:51,300
voice in your head as the viewer
is saying oh he shouldn't have 

1608
01:22:51,300 --> 01:22:53,800
done that. 
Oh that's not right. 

1609
01:22:53,800 --> 01:22:56,300
And then fact that you would 
make Mike Tyson who should have 

1610
01:22:56,300 --> 01:22:58,300
been given the Oscar for best 
supporting actor. 

1611
01:22:58,400 --> 01:23:03,300
I agree. 
That I you single-handedly saved

1612
01:23:03,300 --> 01:23:08,300
his legacy but but it's I think 
because you're a Storyteller and

1613
01:23:08,300 --> 01:23:11,600
a filmmaker it, you can tell 
your story through hangover. 

1614
01:23:11,800 --> 01:23:13,100
You can tell your story through 
Joker. 

1615
01:23:13,100 --> 01:23:17,000
But what you just said you're 
challenged to filmmakers is that

1616
01:23:17,000 --> 01:23:20,600
you can make a difference or you
can, I don't mean some phony 

1617
01:23:20,600 --> 01:23:23,000
Noble, I'm up on my high horse. 
Yeah. 

1618
01:23:23,100 --> 01:23:27,700
But you have the ability to 
leave a mark to make a 

1619
01:23:27,700 --> 01:23:30,400
difference. 
And, and use you were just 

1620
01:23:30,400 --> 01:23:34,100
saying, Us out in the in the 
general, you wear all year, 

1621
01:23:34,100 --> 01:23:35,700
right. 
But I want to just say it back 

1622
01:23:35,700 --> 01:23:39,700
to you as and thank you for what
you said about, you know, my 

1623
01:23:39,700 --> 01:23:41,700
films and all that. 
But you've been doing it for 

1624
01:23:41,700 --> 01:23:43,600
decades. 
Like you managed to just say, 

1625
01:23:43,600 --> 01:23:45,100
this is what I'm gonna do with 
my career. 

1626
01:23:45,300 --> 01:23:48,900
Like, you basically have only 
done that and and it's admirable

1627
01:23:48,900 --> 01:23:51,400
to watch an amazing feel like 
we've spoken off-camera about 

1628
01:23:51,400 --> 01:23:52,800
it. 
You're a huge influence for me 

1629
01:23:52,800 --> 01:23:56,100
when I started in documentaries,
but you've just always known it.

1630
01:23:56,100 --> 01:23:58,200
You're just like, hey, I have 
this voice. 

1631
01:23:58,200 --> 01:24:00,100
I've been giving it. 
I said to Michael before we 

1632
01:24:00,100 --> 01:24:03,100
started How is this that you 
haven't had a podcast before? 

1633
01:24:03,100 --> 01:24:05,300
You feel like the original 
podcaster? 

1634
01:24:05,300 --> 01:24:08,000
You've never done it. 
You know, it's like this is, of 

1635
01:24:08,000 --> 01:24:10,600
course, you're going to do this.
I have had it but it's been in 

1636
01:24:10,608 --> 01:24:13,700
my head it right? 
So 20 years it's just an ongoing

1637
01:24:13,900 --> 01:24:16,600
daily podcast. 
But you know, but I say this so 

1638
01:24:16,600 --> 01:24:19,900
you fellow documentary filmmaker
but you who started out with 

1639
01:24:19,900 --> 01:24:24,100
documentary. 
Yeah, that you Need to make a 

1640
01:24:24,108 --> 01:24:27,500
difference again. 
And again and again, I encourage

1641
01:24:27,500 --> 01:24:31,900
you now that, you know, you are 
already Todd Phillips, you 

1642
01:24:31,900 --> 01:24:34,700
already have an Oscar nomination
for web and mentioned this 

1643
01:24:34,700 --> 01:24:38,500
before, at, as one of the 
writers write, Borat for 

1644
01:24:38,500 --> 01:24:41,400
Christ's sake, you talk about 
one of the great comedies of all

1645
01:24:41,400 --> 01:24:50,200
time but but we the the audience
you need to after Joker make 

1646
01:24:50,200 --> 01:24:51,900
whatever. 
That next thing is, whether it's

1647
01:24:51,900 --> 01:24:55,100
the act two. 
Ooh of Joker or whatever it is, 

1648
01:24:55,300 --> 01:25:01,000
but you clearly have the ability
as a filmmaker to tell a story 

1649
01:25:01,300 --> 01:25:05,200
that can affect how people feel,
how they see the world, what 

1650
01:25:05,200 --> 01:25:08,000
they may go and do about it in 
their own personal lives. 

1651
01:25:08,700 --> 01:25:11,800
That's, that's an enormous gift.
It's not a sense of power. 

1652
01:25:12,200 --> 01:25:17,700
It's a gift. 
And so, I encourage you to do 

1653
01:25:17,700 --> 01:25:19,700
that, and I'm not saying go back
to documentary film. 

1654
01:25:19,700 --> 01:25:21,200
Do I understand? 
Stay where you're at? 

1655
01:25:21,300 --> 01:25:22,700
Stay in your lane. 
Yeah. 

1656
01:25:23,400 --> 01:25:28,500
But we've even that lane, yeah, 
be Reckless. 

1657
01:25:29,500 --> 01:25:32,600
Give us more of this. 
And whenever that voice is 

1658
01:25:32,600 --> 01:25:35,300
telling you usually it's that 
outer voice. 

1659
01:25:35,300 --> 01:25:38,700
Your own inner one that don't do
this, I'll Tata please. 

1660
01:25:38,700 --> 01:25:41,100
Why don't I come on? 
Why, why are you doing this, 

1661
01:25:42,000 --> 01:25:44,800
anytime you hear that, you know,
you're on the right track, 

1662
01:25:44,800 --> 01:25:45,500
right? 
For sure. 

1663
01:25:45,500 --> 01:25:49,200
And so it's exciting to me. 
I think until other people who 

1664
01:25:49,200 --> 01:25:53,000
saw Joker to think, what else 
you will do in the next, Two 

1665
01:25:53,000 --> 01:25:54,100
years. 
The next four years. 

1666
01:25:54,100 --> 01:25:58,500
The next 10 years. 
It's, you know, it's an honor to

1667
01:25:58,500 --> 01:26:00,000
have you sitting here. 
Oh man. 

1668
01:26:00,000 --> 01:26:01,300
That'd be hearing much for 
having me. 

1669
01:26:01,400 --> 01:26:05,400
One of my first podcasts and I 
wanted to do this with you so 

1670
01:26:05,400 --> 01:26:07,100
badly. 
And you just happened to be in 

1671
01:26:07,100 --> 01:26:10,600
New York, and, and you instantly
said, yes. 

1672
01:26:10,600 --> 01:26:13,800
And you don't know you're like a
hero of mine. 

1673
01:26:13,800 --> 01:26:16,600
I mean, outside of the movies, 
the, what you, the way you speak

1674
01:26:16,600 --> 01:26:18,800
truth to power. 
And and another thing I want to 

1675
01:26:18,808 --> 01:26:23,100
say really quickly is this movie
Joker, you help this, The 

1676
01:26:23,100 --> 01:26:27,300
invaluable invaluable e, you 
don't even realize because you 

1677
01:26:27,300 --> 01:26:31,200
wrote this great beautiful 
essay, I'll say on Facebook at 

1678
01:26:31,200 --> 01:26:34,300
our lowest point when it looked 
like this movie, might not come 

1679
01:26:34,300 --> 01:26:38,100
out when we were getting our 
warnings from the FBI and the 

1680
01:26:38,100 --> 01:26:40,900
Army about credible threats. 
When there were not credible 

1681
01:26:40,900 --> 01:26:43,300
threats, and you wrote this 
beautiful thing that got picked 

1682
01:26:43,300 --> 01:26:50,000
up everywhere and really helped 
eloquently put reason on it, you

1683
01:26:50,008 --> 01:26:51,800
know what I mean? 
Like just like, let's calm the 

1684
01:26:51,800 --> 01:26:54,500
fuck down. 
And talk about what we're 

1685
01:26:54,500 --> 01:26:57,200
talking about here. 
Well, thanks for saying that. 

1686
01:26:57,200 --> 01:27:01,600
And I'll, if you're listening to
this, I'll post that on our 

1687
01:27:01,700 --> 01:27:04,000
website here for rumble, right? 
The podcast. 

1688
01:27:04,000 --> 01:27:08,300
And, and you can read it. 
I felt, I felt I had an 

1689
01:27:08,300 --> 01:27:11,500
obligation to do that. 
Thank you, because I was so 

1690
01:27:11,500 --> 01:27:17,100
afraid that the film might get 
lost or buried or suffocate from

1691
01:27:17,100 --> 01:27:20,500
the noise around it and I wasn't
going to let that happen. 

1692
01:27:20,500 --> 01:27:22,500
I just became I didn't call up 
Warner. 

1693
01:27:22,900 --> 01:27:25,000
He called you right ready? 
Just did. 

1694
01:27:25,000 --> 01:27:26,700
It was the stuff I wanted my 
friend. 

1695
01:27:26,700 --> 01:27:28,900
He texted me, because have you 
seen with Michael Moore wrote 

1696
01:27:28,900 --> 01:27:31,000
about Joker and my curse? 
My first reaction because I'm 

1697
01:27:31,000 --> 01:27:32,600
Jewish and everything. 
All I have are negative 

1698
01:27:32,600 --> 01:27:34,600
thoughts. 
I go, oh no, what did he's not? 

1699
01:27:34,600 --> 01:27:40,000
He's just sitting bad. 
Oh no, no, I it was beautiful. 

1700
01:27:40,000 --> 01:27:43,400
It's, you know, I don't like 
having discussions about all 

1701
01:27:43,400 --> 01:27:46,900
this was the best film of the 
are you were the best actor? 

1702
01:27:46,900 --> 01:27:49,500
You're the best, the best, the 
best, you know, you and I both 

1703
01:27:49,500 --> 01:27:52,600
know that this is all a lot of 
crazy making this. 

1704
01:27:52,800 --> 01:27:57,400
Herbs season and all that. 
But I have told everybody, I 

1705
01:27:57,500 --> 01:28:03,700
could that they should see this 
film that it had a huge impact 

1706
01:28:03,700 --> 01:28:05,800
on me. 
It made me. 

1707
01:28:06,000 --> 01:28:08,200
Thank you for what you said 
about what I do. 

1708
01:28:08,200 --> 01:28:13,800
But I'm a human being too. 
This isn't the easiest thing to 

1709
01:28:13,800 --> 01:28:19,600
do and I if this doesn't have, 
this doesn't sound too corny. 

1710
01:28:20,600 --> 01:28:24,300
I felt less alone. 
After I saw this film right 

1711
01:28:25,400 --> 01:28:28,400
obviously in part, because I saw
it with an audience that was 

1712
01:28:28,400 --> 01:28:30,900
wondering, you know, how is that
we're still alive. 

1713
01:28:30,900 --> 01:28:34,500
At the end of the movie, we made
it, you know, but no because you

1714
01:28:34,900 --> 01:28:39,900
the filmmaker who I had 
allegedly met only once before I

1715
01:28:39,907 --> 01:28:42,600
have a photo, there's a 
photograph at Sundance. 

1716
01:28:43,000 --> 01:28:49,100
But but I just felt I was less 
alone as a filmmaker because now

1717
01:28:50,300 --> 01:28:54,700
there's you there's our one 
Little friend who made Birdman, 

1718
01:28:55,000 --> 01:28:58,400
I think of think of you know, or
V for Vendetta or these other 

1719
01:28:58,400 --> 01:29:01,900
films of the last decade or so 
that. 

1720
01:29:02,300 --> 01:29:04,800
And I think we're going to see a
lot more to come and not as a 

1721
01:29:04,808 --> 01:29:06,500
reaction to Joker. 
But as a reaction to what's 

1722
01:29:06,500 --> 01:29:09,200
going on in the world, I mean I 
didn't think the film I 

1723
01:29:09,208 --> 01:29:14,500
directors I talked to we all 
know it's part of what we do is 

1724
01:29:14,500 --> 01:29:17,100
to sort of confront these things
through our art. 

1725
01:29:17,200 --> 01:29:19,700
I think I'm always surprised how
there are no. 

1726
01:29:19,700 --> 01:29:23,300
There seems to be a lack of it 
in music when we Younger. 

1727
01:29:23,500 --> 01:29:26,000
That's what music was Neil. 
Young goes and writes. 

1728
01:29:26,000 --> 01:29:28,400
Ohio, he goes off into the woods
with his guitar and writes, 

1729
01:29:28,400 --> 01:29:31,600
Ohio, these are protest songs 
and more surprise in music. 

1730
01:29:31,700 --> 01:29:35,000
It happens in Hip Hop to a 
degree, but it never feels like 

1731
01:29:35,000 --> 01:29:36,300
it. 
Takes hold the way used to take 

1732
01:29:36,300 --> 01:29:37,600
hold and maybe there's just too 
much. 

1733
01:29:37,600 --> 01:29:39,800
I don't know. 
But it does feel like it is a 

1734
01:29:39,800 --> 01:29:44,300
job of artists in a way that is 
something we should I think. 

1735
01:29:44,300 --> 01:29:46,400
Yeah. 
Consider, because throughout 

1736
01:29:46,400 --> 01:29:51,800
history, it is, it has been the 
artists who who do their best 

1737
01:29:51,800 --> 01:29:59,000
art during In times like this, 
and it is often the artist that 

1738
01:29:59,000 --> 01:30:02,500
the authoritarians go after 
first, because they know they 

1739
01:30:02,500 --> 01:30:05,200
have to silence them, right. 
That the voice of the artist 

1740
01:30:05,200 --> 01:30:06,800
because the people like the 
artist, they'll you know what I 

1741
01:30:06,808 --> 01:30:07,600
mean? 
You know, it's funny if you 

1742
01:30:07,608 --> 01:30:09,600
really think about it, it can be
done subtly. 

1743
01:30:09,600 --> 01:30:12,100
If you think about what's 
happened in the in the mid 90s 

1744
01:30:12,100 --> 01:30:16,900
to the through the beginning of 
2000's, with the lgbtq community

1745
01:30:16,900 --> 01:30:22,000
be between Ellen and shows like 
modern family, and shows, you 

1746
01:30:22,000 --> 01:30:27,500
know that we Slowly shifted an a
a country's opinion of the gay 

1747
01:30:27,500 --> 01:30:31,900
and lesbian community Through 
people like Ellen Degeneres and 

1748
01:30:31,900 --> 01:30:34,500
television shows like modern 
family. 

1749
01:30:34,500 --> 01:30:39,200
And the other one, there's been 
a million but we're and slowly 

1750
01:30:39,200 --> 01:30:40,900
everybody, you don't even 
realize it. 

1751
01:30:40,900 --> 01:30:45,300
Now, it's embarrassing to think 
about, you know, thinking of 

1752
01:30:46,700 --> 01:30:50,500
somebody as different or let. 
Now it's just we've everyone 

1753
01:30:50,500 --> 01:30:53,500
even even the people we think 
could Couldn't handle it. 

1754
01:30:53,500 --> 01:30:55,800
They're fine with it. 
Now we have, we have a mayor 

1755
01:30:55,800 --> 01:30:58,800
Pete running for president and 
it's actually like he's there 

1756
01:30:58,800 --> 01:31:01,200
and he's being discussed. 
And it's not, it's doesn't even 

1757
01:31:01,200 --> 01:31:03,200
come up all the time, you know, 
right. 

1758
01:31:03,200 --> 01:31:05,500
So these things do shift, they 
take time with, if you think 

1759
01:31:05,500 --> 01:31:07,600
about it, they'll, I don't know 
how, I don't know if it was a 

1760
01:31:07,608 --> 01:31:11,400
concerted effort on the LGBT 
community or not but it actually

1761
01:31:11,400 --> 01:31:14,900
happened and it happened through
entertainment, weirdly a lot of 

1762
01:31:14,900 --> 01:31:18,800
it, right? 
Because entertainment, art 

1763
01:31:19,600 --> 01:31:25,700
writing is these are some of the
few Fields where people who are 

1764
01:31:25,700 --> 01:31:29,800
gay and and or who are not in 
the majority of anything, 

1765
01:31:30,000 --> 01:31:35,500
whether it's race, ethnicity 
religion, whatever, it's been a 

1766
01:31:35,500 --> 01:31:38,500
place, it's been a refuge but a 
welcoming place. 

1767
01:31:38,500 --> 01:31:40,600
Yes, I have your voice heard. 
It's true. 

1768
01:31:40,700 --> 01:31:45,400
And and so like the comedian's I
mentioned at the beginning of 

1769
01:31:45,400 --> 01:31:48,400
this. 
Yeah the Charlie Chaplin Jewish 

1770
01:31:48,800 --> 01:31:52,400
Richard Pryor, black George 
Carlin. 

1771
01:31:52,400 --> 01:31:54,800
We We talked about George 
Carlin, I don't know Irish. 

1772
01:31:54,900 --> 01:31:58,500
Oh, he was, I was wrong because 
I'm my family's all from 

1773
01:31:58,500 --> 01:32:00,700
Ireland, got it. 
We know them all know, where em 

1774
01:32:00,700 --> 01:32:04,800
were angry and we're dark. 
And if we didn't have a sense of

1775
01:32:04,800 --> 01:32:07,200
humor, we'd be drinking even 
more right, all right. 

1776
01:32:07,200 --> 01:32:11,900
Just saying, but no Lenny, Bruce
Jewish, when you go, it's it is 

1777
01:32:11,900 --> 01:32:13,400
and it needs to be a more and 
more. 

1778
01:32:13,400 --> 01:32:17,000
Now, women are best comedians 
are women and they have been 

1779
01:32:17,000 --> 01:32:20,400
shut out for so long. 
So this is all good. 

1780
01:32:20,700 --> 01:32:23,800
Change can happen and it doesn't
need to A hundred years, right? 

1781
01:32:23,800 --> 01:32:27,500
Or thousand years, we saw this 
as you just referenced, if you'd

1782
01:32:27,500 --> 01:32:30,600
asked me at the beginning of the
2000s, you know, you think like 

1783
01:32:30,600 --> 01:32:33,400
there'll ever be something 
called gay marriage, or we will 

1784
01:32:33,400 --> 01:32:36,000
have a black president, right? 
We say, are you kidding? 

1785
01:32:36,000 --> 01:32:38,700
I mean, I'd like to believe we 
could, but that's never going to

1786
01:32:38,700 --> 01:32:40,500
happen, but don't you think that
in? 

1787
01:32:40,500 --> 01:32:42,900
Boom, right. 
But it happens Slowly by people 

1788
01:32:42,900 --> 01:32:45,900
by making shows about, like, 
literally television shows and 

1789
01:32:45,900 --> 01:32:48,200
movies where it's just like, oh,
it's just as normal neighbor, 

1790
01:32:48,200 --> 01:32:50,800
all he happens to have a husband
that's fine and it's just like 

1791
01:32:50,800 --> 01:32:52,500
it just sort of somehow sneaks 
in. 

1792
01:32:52,700 --> 01:32:56,800
And it becomes yes, I believe 
that television movies, art 

1793
01:32:56,900 --> 01:33:02,300
triggered it, but in the case, 
especially with an issue with 

1794
01:33:02,300 --> 01:33:07,800
gay marriage, I think so many 
people, gay, lesbian bisexual, 

1795
01:33:07,800 --> 01:33:13,000
the whole genre here came out to
their friends family, right? 

1796
01:33:13,000 --> 01:33:16,500
People at work, and it's hard to
hate right when you put a face 

1797
01:33:16,500 --> 01:33:18,100
on it, like the person that 
you're working next. 

1798
01:33:18,100 --> 01:33:20,400
When you love him so much, 
you're going to suddenly hate 

1799
01:33:20,400 --> 01:33:22,500
him because he says he's gay, 
right? 

1800
01:33:22,700 --> 01:33:26,600
And and that took a lot of 
Courage. 100% - come on, but 

1801
01:33:26,600 --> 01:33:29,700
don't you think those those 
shows sort of Norm normalize it 

1802
01:33:29,700 --> 01:33:32,000
to a way where they could come 
out absent because they're 

1803
01:33:32,000 --> 01:33:34,800
suddenly your co-workers talking
about that show and then you can

1804
01:33:34,800 --> 01:33:35,700
finally go. 
You know what? 

1805
01:33:35,700 --> 01:33:37,700
I don't, I'm not taking anything
away from though. 

1806
01:33:37,700 --> 01:33:39,900
I don't mean to get all the 
credit because it's still, it's 

1807
01:33:39,900 --> 01:33:42,500
still now 2019. 
I'm sure hard to come out in 

1808
01:33:42,500 --> 01:33:45,400
that way, but it's amazing, the 
shift we've made. 

1809
01:33:45,400 --> 01:33:48,600
When you think about 15 years of
it and you go, okay, it could 

1810
01:33:48,600 --> 01:33:50,300
happen in my point isn't even 
about that anymore. 

1811
01:33:50,300 --> 01:33:52,300
It's about what's the next 
thing, right? 

1812
01:33:52,300 --> 01:33:55,200
You know, Oh, and you can go 
like we can do it and while you 

1813
01:33:55,200 --> 01:33:59,300
know, we hit we didn't want to 
you know I'm think Warner 

1814
01:33:59,300 --> 01:34:03,300
Brothers is not interested in 
joker as a healthcare, that's a 

1815
01:34:03,300 --> 01:34:06,900
healthcare movie. 
But but but the truth is that, 

1816
01:34:06,900 --> 01:34:10,300
when we do talk about universal 
healthcare often times or 

1817
01:34:10,300 --> 01:34:15,500
Obamacare, it does not include 
mental issues and even in the 

1818
01:34:15,508 --> 01:34:18,200
countries that have Universal, 
some of them will not cover 

1819
01:34:18,200 --> 01:34:22,500
mental health, and that should 
be at the top of the list. 

1820
01:34:22,700 --> 01:34:25,800
Now, and we need to Cheryl down 
effect of that. 

1821
01:34:25,900 --> 01:34:29,100
Yes. 
So massive and and and the costs

1822
01:34:29,100 --> 01:34:32,600
that go with that, when it's not
addressed are so massive. 

1823
01:34:32,600 --> 01:34:35,900
Well, this has been an 
incredible discussion, Todd. 

1824
01:34:36,100 --> 01:34:41,300
Thank you for being here and one
of my first podcast, and for 

1825
01:34:41,300 --> 01:34:44,100
people listening, if you haven't
seen Joker, please go see it. 

1826
01:34:44,300 --> 01:34:47,300
I'm certain will be on home 
video or streaming. 

1827
01:34:47,300 --> 01:34:49,700
Yeah, by that, by the time, this
airs, I think it'll probably be 

1828
01:34:49,700 --> 01:34:52,300
on like the iTunes stuff. 
What iTunes by? 

1829
01:34:52,600 --> 01:34:54,400
Time around the holidays. 
Are, you know? 

1830
01:34:54,400 --> 01:34:57,800
Oh, that's great. 
So so watch this film. 

1831
01:34:57,900 --> 01:35:00,200
If you're the kind of person 
who's thinking, oh no, I can't 

1832
01:35:00,200 --> 01:35:02,900
watch this. 
Yes, yes, yes, yes, a is you can

1833
01:35:02,900 --> 01:35:09,200
you must I beg you to do that? 
We'll all be better as a result 

1834
01:35:09,200 --> 01:35:12,800
of you watching this film and 
and I look forward to whatever 

1835
01:35:12,800 --> 01:35:14,000
you're going to do next. 
Thank you. 

1836
01:35:14,000 --> 01:35:16,700
Thank you for having me. 
It was really an honor to sit 

1837
01:35:16,700 --> 01:35:18,700
here and talk to you. 
Thank you, Todd Phillips, thank 

1838
01:35:18,700 --> 01:35:19,400
you very much.