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This is ramble and I am Michael 
Moore. 

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Welcome everyone. 
On the today's podcast, I have 

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with me a special guest. 
One of our great writers 

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journalists authors in this 
country her name is Rebecca, 

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Trey stir and I was going to 
have her on because of a piece 

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that she wrote recently about 
how much she's always disliked 

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Joe Biden for decades. 
And in this piece in New York 

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Magazine, she talked about the 
conflict that she seemed to be 

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having with the fact that she 
was being very pleasantly 

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surprised by much of what he was
doing and how could this be? 

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And it's a fascinating piece. 
And so I wanted to have her come

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on and talk about it. 
So she did and you will hear her

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very shortly here. 
But somewhere after about, I 

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don't know, 40, 45 minutes. 
I switch the subject to a 

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different topic. 
And I don't know what I was 

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thinking. 
Maybe we could talk about this 

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for five or ten minutes and wrap
up the show, but we went on for 

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another 45 minutes and it was, 
wow. 

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And I thought to myself, well, 
I've just done two separate 

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podcast with Rebecca Tracer. 
And I don't think we've done 

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this before in the 203 episodes 
that we've done of Rumble, but I

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just thought we could, we Leave.
These are separate podcasts and 

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so there's going to be a part 1 
and part 2. 

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Part 1 is what you're going to 
hear right now with Rebecca and 

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I talking about Biden, what's 
going on in the country etc, 

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etc. 
And then next week, I will bring

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you the part to that was a very 
good but difficult discussion to

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have with her. 
And I'm going to leave it at 

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that and let it speak for itself
when I hear it. 

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Weak. 
But we have to talk about today 

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is something I think it's of 
critical importance, in terms of

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of getting Biden to do what we 
elected him to do and finding 

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the moral courage to stick to 
his guns, when it comes to 

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fighting these Republicans and 
you know, it's not everything 

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that we want obviously. 
And you know, he's not me, 

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probably not you. 
But man, I have this feeling 

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that we are, we are doing some 
good stuff here. 

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And we are going to stop these 
Republicans from destroying this

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country in the planet. 
And I don't want to get to 

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over-optimistic about that 
because it's only going to work 

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when we all do our work. 
But this is a lot better than I 

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thought it was going to be. 
And I want to talk about my 

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complicated feelings about that 
with somebody else who's his 

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Complicated feelings about in 
that's Rebecca treister. 

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So we're going to join her in 
just a second here for part one,

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but before we do that I just 
wanted to thank we have another 

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new underwriter and I love it 
when I get these Underwriters 

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that are doing the things that I
so want to see done. 

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And in this case, the 
underwriter is a an entity 

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called true bill. 
It's actually an app if you 

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heard of this this is like the 
genius. 

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Yeah. 
Okay. 

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So think about this high-tech to
thought man I've got a lot of 

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subscriptions, how many things 
if I subscribed to or how many 

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streaming services am I on? 
I thought was going to only join

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like one, you know, now I've got
I don't know how many I have 

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I've lost track and when you 
sign up, they automatically 

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renew you. 
So you never really you don't 

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get like a bill in the mail back
in the old days, you know, and 

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then you can decide it's do I 
want another year of Newsweek? 

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I don't think so, and that's 
that, but that's not the way it 

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works. 
Now, now you You sign up for a 

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free trial subscription and then
you go and you sign up. 

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And then you realize when I'm 
still on that, I'm still getting

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that magazine. 
I don't even read it. 

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Or do I really need five 
different streaming services? 

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Seriously. 
Well, true bill, they came up 

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with this idea where they help 
you. 

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Not only identify all this 
stuff, you subscribe to be it, a

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print Magazine, online, Magazine
online newspaper, Streaming 

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service. 
They also help you stop paying 

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for these subscriptions that you
no longer need. 

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You don't want them anymore, you
forgotten about them, you 

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forgot. 
You got sucked in by that that 

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offer. 
So I saw the statistic the other

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day that said, 80% of people 
have subscriptions that they 

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have forgotten about and 40% of 
people. 

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Recently said that they are 
overwhelmed by the number of 

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subscriptions. 
They pay. 

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For the other 60% probably 
forgot they subscribed in the 

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first place. 
So listen my friends if you are 

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suffering from way too many 
subscriptions, the excessive 

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subscription syndrome there is a
way out. 

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Let true bill the true bill app.
Do the work for you and set you 

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free average users of this 
actually end up saving over 

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seven hundred dollars a year. 
So my friends in order to start 

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in your unused subscriptions, 
you need to go to True, build 

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a.com slash Rumble. 
You got to do the / Rumble 

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because this tells them that it 
was a good idea to support this 

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podcast and to support my voice,
true bill.com Rumble. 

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And now let's Rumble. 
Rebecca Tracer. 

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My guest today is one of our 
great writers on politics 

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gender. 
Media and culture for the past 

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several years. 
Her books include Big Girls, 

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Don't Cry the election. 
That changed everything for 

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American women. 
All the The Single Ladies, 

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unmarried women and the rise of 
an independent nation. 

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And our most recent book was 
good and mad, the Revolutionary 

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power of woman's anger. 
She currently writes for New 

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York Magazine, where she's 
written some of the most 

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thought-provoking essays about 
the me to Reckoning, post Harvey

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Weinstein. 
And her most recent piece which 

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I just found to be incredible 
and and really fit in with what 

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a lot of us have been taught. 
About here on this podcast in 

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the last few months and that 
piece if you want to look it up 

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and actually I'll have it a link
to it right here on my podcast. 

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Platform H the piece is called 
Biden's big left gamble. 

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The president is overseeing a 
sea change in the world of 

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economic policy and so much 
hangs in the balance. 

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That is very true. 
I'm also very pleased to 

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finally, welcome to this 
podcast. 

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Somebody that I Meyer a great 
deal and love reading her 

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writing, please. 
Welcome to rumble. 

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Rebecca traced her Rebecca. 
Thank you. 

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Thank you for having me. 
I'm so glad to finally be here. 

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I'm happy that it has happened. 
Now, especially after this piece

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that you wrote where you are 
sort of pleasantly surprised as 

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to how Joe Biden who has been. 
If I may say this on the wrong 

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side, mostly the wrong side of, 
most of the critical issues of 

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the past. 
Well, let's just give it 15 

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Years and how he's governing and
what's been happening. 

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And I've said this before my 
podcast, that, you know, the 

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political winds have been 
shifting to the left and Biden 

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has been blowing along with it. 
I've also said to people and I 

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don't know this for a fact, 
please don't think that I'm in 

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Daily communication with 
anybody, that knows anything. 

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But knowing Bernie, I get this 
feeling that he and Biden are on

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the phone. 
Every other night. 

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Like they're having some kind of
You know, goodnight talk with 

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each other because Biden seems 
to have as has the country 

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shifted to the left that we 
haven't shifted, right? 

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We've gone left but tell me what
pleased you with Joe Biden's 

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performance. 
And, I mean, how can any of us 

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who are of a certain age. 
We remember what happened to 

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Anita Hill in those hearings. 
Yeah. 

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What happened to Anita Hill was?
Probably the formative political

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or feminist experience. 
My life. 

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I was in high school because I 
think, to some degree, my 

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feeling about how Biden's doing 
could be framed as a pleasant 

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surprise. 
So, and I should say I was very 

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publicly and aggressively a 
Critic of Joe Biden and his 

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entry into the 2020s. 
And I wrote a probably 3000 word

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argument against Joe Biden based
on his history, with regard, not

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only to his handling of the 
Thomas hearings. 

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But his history writing the 
crime bill as a supporter of 

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welfare reform. 
As a, as a former supporter of 

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the Hyde Amendment and a 
abortion opponent who had 

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evolved right already by 2019, 
but I wrote this in 2019 at the 

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beginning of that primary season
to me. 

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And I, this was not a secret. 
I didn't, I'm not like I get to 

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be an opinion writer, but it's 
not like I had one Canada. 

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I preferred a lot of the 
candidates who were to the left 

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and I wrote most extensively 
about Is it with Warren? 

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She's somebody I profiled over 
and over again for years but and

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you know I don't think anybody I
write about my politics like I 

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was preferring the candidates 
who are to the left but the 

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person who I was aggressively 
critical of in print was Joe 

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Biden because I thought he 
represented our past and not our

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future, and I couldn't have been
more public about that and my 

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criticism of him persisted 
through 2020, through the 

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primaries. 
On the day that he was 

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inaugurated or at least that 
week I wrote in New York 

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Magazine, a column that was sort
of coming to terms with how much

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I had not wanted him to be the 
president. 

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And how grateful I was that he 
was becoming the president both 

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things were true, right? 
I obviously desperately wanted 

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him to win with every I probably
had never wanted anybody to win 

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the presidency more on some sick
level, right? 

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And so I wrote a piece about him
on, you know, at the moment of 

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his inauguration in January 
after you know, January 6 and 

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everything where I was trying to
reckon with some of my own Level

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of relief and also sadness that 
this is what the answer had to 

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be. 
And in part what I wrote in that

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piece was was about the kind of 
middling white patriarchy, the 

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middle-of-the-road moderate 
white patriarchy that Joe Biden 

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embodied and I wrote in that 
piece and it's a grim piece. 

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It is. 
It's it's wrestling with my what

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I believe is the Revelation that
of course, he was the person who

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was going to win, right? 
Who should have like, all my 

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argument. 
It shouldn't be Joe Biden. 

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Like it was the guy who looked 
like the past that I mean, I 

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don't know, we can't run an 
alternate experience where it 

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was Bernier it was Warren or it 
was Castro or when you know or 

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was Booker like we can't we 
can't know how that would have 

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turned out but that the comfort 
that I saw people taking and 

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Biden Uncle don't Uncle Joe 
stuff, right? 

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Yeah. 
Permitted him to win this most 

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crucial of Victories and I like 
that's hard for me to come to 

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terms with because I both 
acknowledge that it's true and I

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find it deeply deeply 
depressing, right? 

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Because a lot of what I care 
about is not better 

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representation, just for the 
sake of representation. 

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But more diverse and Progressive
representation and he does still

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seem like the past. 
And what I said in that piece at

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his inauguration, is that I 
wanted him to take all the 

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energies. 
The kind of more activist more 

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forward thinking more youthful, 
more diverse perspectives in his

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party and more broadly on the 
American left and put them to 

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use. 
And I sort of was a little sad 

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and saying, like I know that 
he'll get the credit, like I 

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want him to be FDR. 
I want to go big, right? 

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Go big or go home and take the 
credit. 

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For the work of all these other 
people. 

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And so this piece is actually 
looking at some of the people he

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has, in fact, brought on. 
And so, here's my pleasant 

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surprise. 
It's not exactly surprised at 

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Biden himself, but a series of 
choices that he's made, I think 

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are terrific. 
And a lot of them are about 

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hiring. 
A lot of them are about who he's

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built. 
His administration around not 

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necessarily as Inner Circle, who
are a lot of the people who, 

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00:13:57,800 --> 00:13:59,700
like, him have been in 
Democratic politics. 

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And, you know, over decades and,
but he has staffed. 

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His teams and I'm writing 
largely in this piece about 

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Economic Policy teams with 
really creative forward, looking

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young, diverse perspectives that
are very exciting. 

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And I think actually building 
policy that then the questions 

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about whether or not that policy
makes it through very broken, 

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00:14:27,700 --> 00:14:30,400
Senate process, and 
Congressional process. 

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Think that putting that aside He
has brought on a really 

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remarkable team and that makes 
all the difference in the world.

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And so that's sort of what I'm 
this piece. 

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Is describing some of that, 
right? 

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How this process is happening 
and how this generation of 

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people who I think, do think 
very differently than Joe Biden 

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has either thought or 
legislative throughout his five 

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decade career that we've known 
him for right. 

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He actually was elected before I
was born. 

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He was elected. 
I was born in E5 and Joe Biden 

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was elected in 72 and, and came 
to the senate in January of 73. 

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So, you know, that's what this 
piece is doing. 

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Is trying to figure out what's 
the match here. 

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Why did he do this thing? 
Why did he, why did he build an 

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Administration? 
And at least in part not 

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entirely of these really 
dynamic. 

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In some cases, forward-looking 
people who see government in a 

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different way and and some of 
the pieces wrestling with what 

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about Joe Biden leaves? 
A moat makes him open to that, 

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kind of generational and 
ideological shift that I think 

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we're seeing. the thing about 
Biden that has been surprising 

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and cheering to me because I 
think he very well, could have 

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governed in the ways that would 
have matched my worst guesses 

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about him, which would be in the
spirit of the 1990s clintonian 

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into Obama years, you know, sort
of Centrist neoliberal cowering 

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position of what had been until 
very recently, the Contemporary 

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Democratic party and I assumed 
that that was how he would 

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govern and he certainly It has 
elements of that around him, but

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he has stalked his, like, his 
administration in some cases the

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cabinet, but, but also, the kind
of two and three levels down 

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into his administration, with 
really fascinating group of 

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people, and, and the piece that 
I wrote a few weeks ago is 

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largely about, you know, a kind 
of Economic Policy side of 

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things. 
I think it's in some cases, it's

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true around immigration and 
climate will see it. 

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But, you know, he's broke. 
He's brought a really surprising

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group of people. 
Who are a lot younger, a lot 

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more Progressive, a lot more 
diverse in their thinking, as 

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well as in terms of their 
identities. 

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And their ages, then then I 
might have expected. 

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And I think you can see that 
reflected in the policy that 

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they're making whether or not 
that policy gets through and 

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whether or not Biden and the 
senior Democrats actually know 

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how to fight for that policy 
successfully. 

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And if there's a path to fight 
for it successfully, these are 

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all open questions, but a lot of
what he's putting on the table 

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Abel is a lot more Dynamic, a 
lot Lester than I would have 

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guessed. 
And so, the thing that I am 

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pleasantly surprised by is his 
openness to a new generation of 

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economic thinking, and idea, and
ideology, and political, and 

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00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,500
approach to politics and framing
of the government, which I think

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is really important, he's really
open to new Is to cast the role 

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of government as a beneficial 
force in people's lives. 

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And I think that is so crucial 
and it's been missing for my, 

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you know, entire adulthood 
practically my entire life, from

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the Democratic party is a 
willingness to sort of 

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aggressively. 
Say, the government is, is a 

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salubrious. 
Force should be a salubrious for

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should act to bring support 
staff. 

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00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:13,200
Economic stability, Healthcare 
dignity to the lives of people 

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in This country and and he's 
brought in a group of people who

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I think think differently about 
that and he's permitting them to

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shape policy. 
And and that's that's very 

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interesting to me. 
And so my piece was noting that.

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And then also exploring what's 
made him open to this path and 

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to this sort of new generation 
of people. 

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And there are all kinds of 
people who have hypotheses 

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about, what about Biden, makes 
him a good match for some of 

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these younger people and the 
ideas that have come up through 

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Decades of Activism that's been 
happening sort of outside the 

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Democratic party and then that 
has, you know, taken shape 

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00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,500
within the Democratic party 
electorally and has also 

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happened within Realms of 
economic theory is it's the ice 

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cream there is. 
You know I think it's I've 

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always felt that ice cream was 
one of the few things that we 

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00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:09,700
have of maybe perhaps some proof
of a higher power on this 

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because no human could ever 
invent something that good. 

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That's just an this guy is not 
about his ice cream and ice 

298
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cream in the cone, especially, 
but I've also said somewhat 

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00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:27,400
seriously, that having been 
raised Catholic and being a 

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00:19:28,100 --> 00:19:33,600
recovering Catholic, at this 
point, I guess, this guy, his 

301
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religion, his faith. 
However, he whatever, however, 

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00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:42,000
he Fashions it, he's the first 
president in my lifetime, that 

303
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,800
doesn't fake. 
Go to Church that he really is 

304
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:52,100
going to mass and there's 
something about it that perhaps 

305
00:19:52,100 --> 00:19:57,500
it has been affected by the 
losses in his life maybe this 

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final loss with his his son that
and so I've seen this happen 

307
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:06,500
with people sometimes where they
it's not just about going and 

308
00:20:06,500 --> 00:20:09,400
kneeling and saying, prayers and
all this, but it's really about 

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00:20:09,500 --> 00:20:12,900
the, how can I leave this world 
a better place? 

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And, and do it not just in my 
name, but my son's name and in 

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the others who've suffered and, 
and, and I, I sense this in him.

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00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,300
I also, it's these his other 
advisors, his three 

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00:20:24,300 --> 00:20:28,100
granddaughters. 
I think that they have just 

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00:20:28,100 --> 00:20:30,400
having read and seen interviews 
with them. 

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They have made their voices as 
young, women heard loudly and 

316
00:20:35,500 --> 00:20:37,200
forcefully with him about some 
things. 

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And I just, maybe it's a 
combination of all of this. 

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00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,800
I don't, I don't know right now.
I don't know if I want to know 

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00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,400
because Today Rebecca today he 
is still. 

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00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:50,600
Yeah, pushing for the over three
trillion dollar what he calls 

321
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,900
the human infrastructure, he 
won't let up on it. 

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00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,900
They've told him to stop 
Mansion, has threatened him. 

323
00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,400
You got to stop this, I'm going 
home. 

324
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,900
You know, Mansion shows up at a 
GOP, fundraiser this past 

325
00:21:02,900 --> 00:21:04,800
weekend in Texas. 
You know. 

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00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:09,000
And he doesn't use of the modern
democratic as you were. 

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00:21:09,008 --> 00:21:13,900
Describing this group of people,
the Democrats has Always giving 

328
00:21:13,900 --> 00:21:17,100
in afraid of Republicans. 
Afraid of the word liberal. 

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00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:18,600
Remember you couldn't use that 
word. 

330
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:19,800
Oh yeah. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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So so this is the, these are the
Democrats that we've grown up 

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00:21:22,700 --> 00:21:26,900
with in is adults. 
Just just hated it and he's not 

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00:21:26,900 --> 00:21:31,000
doing that, he's not giving up, 
he's still just an everyday 

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00:21:31,100 --> 00:21:34,000
because you know, I'm like you 
with this and I'm like, I knew 

335
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,900
he'd give up on that you know 
and then all of a sudden comes 

336
00:21:36,900 --> 00:21:39,800
back today. 
He goes hey what about my three 

337
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:44,400
trillion dollars for child care 
and and All this other stuff 

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00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,100
that we've got to do this is 
this is infrastructure to and 

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00:21:47,100 --> 00:21:48,700
I'm not going to let you define 
it. 

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00:21:48,700 --> 00:21:51,000
I'm defining it because I know 
this is what the majority of 

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00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,400
Americans want. 
And and and I think that the way

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00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:59,200
we cannot understate how 
remarkable it is to have a 

343
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:03,200
president pushing for that care 
economy stuff. 

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I mean and you know, I'm of the 
mind that the reframing it as 

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00:22:07,900 --> 00:22:10,700
infrastructure is brilliant. 
There are lots of very smart 

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00:22:10,700 --> 00:22:14,700
people who disagree with me 
about that but I think it's 

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00:22:14,700 --> 00:22:17,000
brilliant and it is a way to 
take something that for years 

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has been siloed as a women's 
issue. 

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And in fact and sort of find a 
kind of unfortunately 

350
00:22:26,500 --> 00:22:29,600
masculinized framework that 
thereby legitimizes it right in 

351
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,800
the infrastructure, but it's 
also correct their the systems 

352
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,500
that need to work in order for 
people to live the lives, they 

353
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want to live, you know, and need
to live and so I think the 

354
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,200
infrastructure framing is 
brilliant. 

355
00:22:43,300 --> 00:22:45,400
I want to go back to the 
theorizing about what it is 

356
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because you said a couple of 
things that are very interesting

357
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,600
to me. 
So I this wasn't in my piece but

358
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:51,500
a couple people mentioned it to 
me and I think it's absolutely 

359
00:22:51,500 --> 00:22:52,600
true. 
The close relationship with the 

360
00:22:52,608 --> 00:22:54,700
granddaughters. 
I think is really important 

361
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,700
because he does seem to have a 
lot of his inner circle in the 

362
00:22:57,708 --> 00:22:59,700
white house or people who've 
been with him for decades, 

363
00:22:59,700 --> 00:23:01,400
right? 
And a lot of guys who like him, 

364
00:23:02,900 --> 00:23:07,300
my guys have been around for a 
long time, but but he has 

365
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,700
clearly a very close familial 
relationship with these young 

366
00:23:10,700 --> 00:23:15,000
women. 
The the thing you said about his

367
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,500
religion, of course to my mind 
Cuts in several directions and 

368
00:23:18,500 --> 00:23:21,400
it may be true that that his 
faith guides him. 

369
00:23:21,500 --> 00:23:26,400
It's certainly true that his 
experiences of loss, you know, 

370
00:23:27,300 --> 00:23:32,900
beginning with the death of his 
wife and child and his Own 

371
00:23:32,900 --> 00:23:34,800
experience in. 
This is probably not separate 

372
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:36,700
from his understanding of the 
role. 

373
00:23:36,700 --> 00:23:39,400
That care work plays. 
Within the lives of family, his 

374
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:45,400
experiences of raising his sons 
for period as a single dad up 

375
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:51,700
through the loss of Bo, you 
know, and and his and his sons, 

376
00:23:51,700 --> 00:23:55,100
struggle with addiction. 
All these kinds of things, give 

377
00:23:55,100 --> 00:23:59,100
him an experience of loss pain 
and and what you need, and the 

378
00:23:59,100 --> 00:24:03,300
resources that you need at hand 
to rebuild and Eyes. 

379
00:24:04,500 --> 00:24:07,500
I think all that's, that's 
really true and makes him 

380
00:24:07,500 --> 00:24:10,100
empathetic, but he's also had 
all those experiences. 

381
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,700
And, you know, remember he'd had
those experiences when he 

382
00:24:13,700 --> 00:24:16,900
supported welfare reform, right?
So if that gets us, part of the 

383
00:24:16,900 --> 00:24:21,200
way, but it doesn't, it doesn't 
take us all the way there. 

384
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,100
And, of course, the religion 
itself is what led to Decades of

385
00:24:24,100 --> 00:24:29,900
his stance on abortion, which I,
and I have to say this among the

386
00:24:29,900 --> 00:24:32,600
biggest surprises of this 
Administration and something, 

387
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,700
Then I care deeply about and 
that I just have to take my hat 

388
00:24:35,700 --> 00:24:39,100
off. 
This budget, the proposed budget

389
00:24:39,100 --> 00:24:42,200
was the first since I believe 
Clinton's first budget in the 

390
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,000
early 90s that did not include 
the Hyde Amendment. 

391
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,900
Now the hide will certainly go 
back into the finished product, 

392
00:24:49,100 --> 00:24:54,400
but the fact that Joe Biden who 
for years was an opponent of 

393
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:58,600
abortion and a supporter of the 
Hyde Amendment, took the Hyde 

394
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,600
Amendment out, the legislative 
Rider that forbids pregnant 

395
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:08,600
people from from using who Avail
themselves of A minute Insurance

396
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,500
to use that government insurance
to pay for abortion care, which 

397
00:25:11,500 --> 00:25:17,100
is unbelievably discriminatory 
racist, like one of them, the 

398
00:25:17,100 --> 00:25:19,000
most unequal izing laws in this 
country. 

399
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:24,600
It's foul in every way and it's 
just, it's been so absorbed as 

400
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,900
as that, I believe, Barack Obama
referred to it as a tradition. 

401
00:25:28,900 --> 00:25:33,000
And the fact that Biden was the 
person who submitted a proposed 

402
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,600
budget that didn't have it in, I
just have to take my hat off to 

403
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,300
him because That that shows, 
change that I really admire in 

404
00:25:39,300 --> 00:25:42,300
that is about an ability to 
evolve and it's about perhaps 

405
00:25:42,300 --> 00:25:45,200
listening to people and taking 
them really seriously and 

406
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:50,600
thinking about how, what? 
Faith compassion dignity loss. 

407
00:25:50,700 --> 00:25:55,000
Equality, taking a look at 
structural inequalities like he 

408
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,500
says he's doing how that can 
reshape our ideas and lead us to

409
00:25:58,500 --> 00:26:00,300
change our minds, which is what 
we want from people. 

410
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,300
There are also more cynical 
views of this which is that 

411
00:26:03,300 --> 00:26:05,400
Biden. 
The thing about Biden is he is a

412
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:12,400
classic Shit, right? 
He's the guy like he is the 

413
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,900
retail politician. 
He's the guy holding babies and 

414
00:26:14,900 --> 00:26:17,100
shaking hands in an unco Vera, 
right. 

415
00:26:17,100 --> 00:26:23,200
He's the he's that guy and that 
guy can lead a lot of us to 

416
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,400
distrust him for very good 
reason. 

417
00:26:25,700 --> 00:26:28,900
But there's also something and 
Dorian Warren said to me, when I

418
00:26:28,900 --> 00:26:31,900
interviewed him for this piece, 
he's like we actually want our 

419
00:26:31,900 --> 00:26:34,300
politicians to respond to our 
pressure, right? 

420
00:26:34,300 --> 00:26:36,300
We want them to take the 
temperature to put their finger 

421
00:26:36,300 --> 00:26:37,700
in the Wind. 
See which way the wind is 

422
00:26:37,700 --> 00:26:39,500
blowing, and it's the job of 
activists. 

423
00:26:39,500 --> 00:26:42,800
Whether that means outside sort 
of Street activism, whether it 

424
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,000
means activism within a 
Democratic party, or whether it 

425
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,900
means activism, within like nerd
world of Economic Policy 

426
00:26:47,900 --> 00:26:50,700
expertise, it's our job to 
change the way the wind is 

427
00:26:50,700 --> 00:26:54,400
blowing and, and decade's worth 
of activism, whether it's occupy

428
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,900
and fight for 15 and black lives
matter and me to whether it's 

429
00:26:57,900 --> 00:27:00,800
Bernie and the squad. 
And the Elizabeth Warren sort of

430
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,600
more regulatory approach. 
Whether it's this shift in 

431
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,200
Economic Policy, thinking that I
was sort of just Being in this 

432
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,300
peace among a bunch of nerds who
are traumatized by the slow 

433
00:27:11,300 --> 00:27:16,700
recovery coming out of 2008 who 
were informed by the activism of

434
00:27:16,900 --> 00:27:20,700
occupy black lives matter, to 
rethink a democratic party's 

435
00:27:20,700 --> 00:27:23,900
approach to economic policy. 
And now, we're working within 

436
00:27:23,900 --> 00:27:26,800
the skies Administration. 
He's being affected by all that 

437
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,100
question, all of it, right? 
And he's shifting and I think 

438
00:27:30,100 --> 00:27:31,700
that's a really important 
quality. 

439
00:27:31,700 --> 00:27:34,400
And then the the other theory 
that Felicia one, who's ahead of

440
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,700
the Roosevelt Institute, said to
me, that's very funny. 

441
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:38,600
And lots of people notice. 
But I think there's actually 

442
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,700
something interesting that I 
think you might be interested in

443
00:27:40,700 --> 00:27:43,700
to she said it was kind of a 
joke and kind of not. 

444
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:45,600
She's like, he's so old. 
Right. 

445
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,200
Some of the reasons I thought he
was the parties past and not his

446
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,300
future. 
He's so old that he's actually 

447
00:27:51,300 --> 00:27:55,400
pre neoliberal, right? 
That he came of age, but it's 

448
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,900
true. 
He came of age politically even 

449
00:27:58,900 --> 00:28:01,200
in adulthood amongst the 
remnants of a New Deal 

450
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,600
coalition, right? 
He knows, you know, I mean, I 

451
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,400
think there are there are all Of
arguments to be had about his 

452
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:13,500
actual commitments to labor, but
he, he, he sees himself as a 

453
00:28:13,500 --> 00:28:19,500
union guy and he came of 
political age in a period where 

454
00:28:19,500 --> 00:28:23,300
he understood, that there was a 
different way for Democratic for

455
00:28:23,300 --> 00:28:28,000
Democrats to govern and he was 
then a part of the party at a 

456
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,400
foot soldier of the party, that 
decided to do it differently, 

457
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,400
being led by Wall Street and 
markets over a period of four 

458
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,700
decades, but he has the 
experience the lived. 

459
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:41,800
Experience of a very different 
approach to democratic policy 

460
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,100
making. 
And so some of this stuff may 

461
00:28:44,100 --> 00:28:47,000
not be the way I understand it. 
It's like it's new and he's open

462
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,700
to new Young ideas. 
And Felicia Wong's model is 

463
00:28:49,700 --> 00:28:53,500
like, these are old ideas, you 
know, and he obviously knows 

464
00:28:53,500 --> 00:28:55,500
that that's he talks about 
Roosevelt all the time. 

465
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,900
You know the biggest portrait in
his office is FDR. 

466
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,900
That's his model. 
That's an old model of a 

467
00:29:01,900 --> 00:29:05,100
problem. 
Cesar Chavez and Bobby Kennedy. 

468
00:29:05,500 --> 00:29:10,700
I mean, Rosa Parks this write 
this in. 

469
00:29:10,700 --> 00:29:17,600
He also the thing about well, I 
just want to say certain go back

470
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:23,600
to this Catholic thing again. 
But last month, this guy who 

471
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,000
supported the Hyde Amendment, 
all anti-abortion blah, blah 

472
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,600
blah. 
All through all these decades 

473
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,700
and now he's been declared an 
enemy of the Catholic Church by 

474
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,300
United States Conference of 
Catholic Bishops. 

475
00:29:37,100 --> 00:29:43,700
They have voted to, to deny him 
to go to communion when he goes 

476
00:29:43,700 --> 00:29:46,600
to mass, they've never done that
to anybody. 

477
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,300
And I think it's because they 
see him as a threat. 

478
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:52,300
He's probably their biggest for 
all. 

479
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,700
Now, we're talking about all the
bad things that the Catholic 

480
00:29:54,700 --> 00:30:00,800
Church does to this planet to 
this country to women, to the 

481
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,900
lgbtq community Etc. 
They they are probably 

482
00:30:03,900 --> 00:30:08,800
responsible for so many deaths. 
If you lay At their feet, what 

483
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:14,200
they did to stop any help going 
to people who had HIV and AIDS. 

484
00:30:14,700 --> 00:30:16,700
No, condom distribution was 
allowed. 

485
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,400
None of this stuff. 
If, if you were Planned 

486
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,300
Parenthood or somebody in, you 
were Distributing condoms. 

487
00:30:22,300 --> 00:30:24,900
In the third world using getting
government money because of 

488
00:30:24,900 --> 00:30:27,400
condoms things, that would save 
people's lives. 

489
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,800
And they have now said that he 
is their enemy, their personal 

490
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,200
enemy, and they are going to 
deny him. 

491
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,900
This thing that he actually 
Believes he believes. 

492
00:30:38,900 --> 00:30:42,900
That is the body of Christ and 
and they are not going. 

493
00:30:43,700 --> 00:30:47,100
And I think it's because he is 
and what he started out of the 

494
00:30:47,100 --> 00:30:52,900
gate doing here, they're not 
stupid and they see that his his

495
00:30:52,900 --> 00:30:57,700
values are certainly not theirs 
and and they do care a lot more 

496
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:03,200
about what they call The Unborn 
than the child, who is born into

497
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,000
poverty into everything else, 
hunger, Etc. 

498
00:31:06,900 --> 00:31:11,800
Catholic Church lost its way as 
an institution a long time ago. 

499
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,000
And yet he and yet, like your 
grandparents, if you're 

500
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,200
Catholic, they still show up to 
mass. 

501
00:31:17,900 --> 00:31:19,700
I don't know. 
I just I think that there's 

502
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,600
there is something going on 
here, but I just for all, I just

503
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,400
want to ask you this though, for
all the positive that he's 

504
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:33,300
doing, there's still this 
maddening talk that we stay. 

505
00:31:33,300 --> 00:31:36,200
We have to find common ground 
that we have to meet in the 

506
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,500
middle. 
And you wrote this apiece, it 

507
00:31:39,500 --> 00:31:43,100
recently titled. 
They've been calling for 

508
00:31:43,100 --> 00:31:47,500
Bloodshed the whole time talking
about the right wing and how 

509
00:31:47,500 --> 00:31:49,600
they've supported violence for 
years. 

510
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:54,500
Now, this is a party that has 
built its power on violence and 

511
00:31:54,500 --> 00:31:57,700
the call for Bloodshed, be it 
invading another country. 

512
00:31:57,700 --> 00:32:02,800
Being at not repassing the 
violence against women's act 

513
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,200
etcetera, Etc. 
This is in their core belief. 

514
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:12,100
And so so my question to you is,
how are we supposed to meet in 

515
00:32:12,100 --> 00:32:14,300
the middle? 
Yeah, there's no middle that's 

516
00:32:14,300 --> 00:32:18,100
horseshit and so but here's 
probably why I'm not a 

517
00:32:18,100 --> 00:32:20,600
politician much less the 
president of the United States. 

518
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,800
I mean I think it's horseshit 
and I think it's been I think 

519
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:29,200
treating this kind of the it all
goes hand in hand with Democrats

520
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,400
stated commitment to civility 
which go back, you know, like I 

521
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,000
mean for a long time. 
But this whole notion that the 

522
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:36,700
system worked, I mean and that 
is something that I will. 

523
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,000
I'll still work up a head of 
steam about with Biden and his 

524
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,900
stories of the Senate. 
And his, you fought like cats 

525
00:32:42,900 --> 00:32:46,200
and dogs on the floor with the 
segregationist and then you go 

526
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,600
and, you know, have lunch or go 
to the gym or whatever. 

527
00:32:48,700 --> 00:32:50,400
Fuck that. 
I mean, right. 

528
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,700
The system worked because you're
the people in power in the 

529
00:32:52,700 --> 00:32:57,900
system and this, your, this, 
your the system, and your fights

530
00:32:57,900 --> 00:33:00,400
actually are legislating the 
realities of the people out 

531
00:33:00,408 --> 00:33:01,600
there. 
So, it's working for you, 

532
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,900
because you get your lunch 
right, but it's not working, 

533
00:33:05,100 --> 00:33:09,000
right? 
So I I'm allergic to the NIH. 

534
00:33:09,500 --> 00:33:14,500
I mean, I remember in gosh, I've
lost what year were in but in 

535
00:33:14,500 --> 00:33:22,300
the period of the the child 
separation and the summer, guess

536
00:33:22,300 --> 00:33:30,200
it was 2017 or 2018 you know, 
when you had Pelosi and you had 

537
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,000
people calling for like Civility
and stop interrupting their date

538
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,100
nights and dinners with 
protesters. 

539
00:33:37,100 --> 00:33:40,000
Fuck that I am. 
But but listen, that is a 

540
00:33:40,008 --> 00:33:46,000
perspective that is very much on
the side of a kind of stirred 

541
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:51,000
Fury and protest culture that I 
actually believe, right. 

542
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,400
There's they're all kinds of 
different schools of thought on 

543
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,000
this, right? 
But I think it's the culture of 

544
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,200
protest and the and the 
interrupting of the dinners of 

545
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,200
the people who were, who are 
ripping families apart at the 

546
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,200
border, right? 
And the stuff that is deemed by 

547
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:10,900
many, In power, including 
ostensibly on the side of, you 

548
00:34:10,900 --> 00:34:12,699
know, on in the Democratic 
party, right? 

549
00:34:12,699 --> 00:34:15,600
Definitely in the Democratic 
party and ostensibly on the side

550
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,300
of the greater moral. 
Good saying no, no, no we can't.

551
00:34:18,300 --> 00:34:22,300
This is, we need to be civil in 
our discussions. 

552
00:34:22,300 --> 00:34:24,300
We need to work together. 
We need to write. 

553
00:34:24,300 --> 00:34:26,600
I'm on the side of fuck. 
That protest them. 

554
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:32,199
However, I will also say that 
there are these kinds of 

555
00:34:32,207 --> 00:34:36,699
challenges in the expression of 
changing ideas, come in many. 

556
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,300
A forms and some of those forms 
are Street protest. 

557
00:34:40,300 --> 00:34:42,400
Some of those forms are 
demonstrations. 

558
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,300
Some of those forms are 
interrupting, the dinners of 

559
00:34:45,300 --> 00:34:49,699
administration officials, right?
Some of those forms are profane 

560
00:34:49,699 --> 00:34:55,500
and then they may not you know 
that if that's not working with 

561
00:34:55,500 --> 00:34:57,200
that's not the system working, 
right? 

562
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:58,500
It's not. 
The legislators having their 

563
00:34:58,508 --> 00:35:00,900
lunches together, right? 
In fact it's those lunches or 

564
00:35:00,900 --> 00:35:05,600
the equivalent being disturbed 
but that's part of the work of 

565
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:07,900
again. 
Activism that happens. 

566
00:35:07,900 --> 00:35:11,100
In many dip takes many different
forms at many different times. 

567
00:35:11,100 --> 00:35:13,900
You know, that's different from 
some of the, it's distinct from 

568
00:35:13,900 --> 00:35:17,900
some of the voter registration 
efforts the voter protection 

569
00:35:17,900 --> 00:35:22,900
movements we've seen happen. 
But yet these things are all 

570
00:35:22,900 --> 00:35:25,800
different, forms of expression 
of dissatisfaction with the 

571
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,900
system, right? 
And that despite his 

572
00:35:27,900 --> 00:35:32,800
dissatisfaction is finding in 
the albiet in varied again, very

573
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,700
different forms. 
It's finding its way into that 

574
00:35:35,700 --> 00:35:38,000
by Administration. 
And so if you don't have a 

575
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,500
culture that is mad enough to 
interrupt dinners for five 

576
00:35:41,500 --> 00:35:43,700
summers ago or when it again, I 
have lost time. 

577
00:35:43,700 --> 00:35:45,000
I do I can't tell you what year 
it is. 

578
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,100
I can tell you what day it is, 
but I definitely know that 

579
00:35:47,100 --> 00:35:51,400
several summers ago or two years
before having Medicare for every

580
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,200
person in this country for a 
great health care for everyone 

581
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,600
or to we're in that year that's 
two years before that I don't 

582
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,500
know the number of the Year 
either but I know where I'm at 

583
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,300
right. 
But several years past you had 

584
00:36:05,300 --> 00:36:10,200
Maxine Waters, who has Has been 
on the side of protest and the X

585
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:15,000
pro test as a valid and cogent 
expression of dissatisfaction at

586
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,200
Injustice, you had Maxine Waters
encouraging protest. 

587
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,700
And you had a members of her own
party Schumer, and Pelosi 

588
00:36:22,100 --> 00:36:25,900
chastising her for it, calling 
for civility and right. 

589
00:36:25,900 --> 00:36:28,600
And there are those 
disagreements coming from this 

590
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:32,100
system versus a versus outside 
of a system, you know? 

591
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,200
And and yet the outside of the 
system behave like things that 

592
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:41,300
we saw Saw contributed to a 
greater cultural. 

593
00:36:41,300 --> 00:36:46,000
And, and so, all of us, knowing 
that we what's happening around 

594
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,900
us is wrong. 
And there are people mad enough 

595
00:36:48,900 --> 00:36:50,700
to say it in whatever form it 
takes. 

596
00:36:50,700 --> 00:36:52,900
And of course, that is true, 
when it comes to issues. 

597
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,900
That's that's border issues and 
immigration issues and its 

598
00:36:56,100 --> 00:36:58,900
climate and it is climate 
protest. 

599
00:36:58,900 --> 00:37:01,800
And it is the sit-in in Pelosi's
office. 

600
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:07,200
The first day of the that first 
day, congresswoman You know, 

601
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,600
Alexandria Ocasio Cortez 
attends, right when she first 

602
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:15,500
comes to Washington, you know, 
in January of 2019, right that's

603
00:37:15,500 --> 00:37:17,500
protest. 
That happened within the system.

604
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,400
All of this gets to Joe Biden 
eventually, right? 

605
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,500
That's part of what shifts. 
That's the wind. 

606
00:37:23,500 --> 00:37:26,800
That's that's Dorian Warren's. 
It's our job to ship the wind 

607
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,700
and some of that is that 
impolite stuff? 

608
00:37:28,700 --> 00:37:31,200
It's sitting, you know, it's 
interrupting dinners or it's 

609
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:37,400
doing a sit in a Nancy Pelosi's 
office or it's AOC running to To

610
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,500
unseat a Democrat who's been 
sitting in his seat for a long 

611
00:37:40,500 --> 00:37:43,100
time. 
And she unseats him and and then

612
00:37:43,100 --> 00:37:46,000
she's at Nancy Pelosi's door to 
alongside protesters. 

613
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:51,100
And I mean, this is all part of 
the larger system of changing 

614
00:37:51,100 --> 00:37:52,700
the wind. 
Yes, yes. 

615
00:37:52,700 --> 00:37:56,100
So but here's my fear, if the 
Senate, if we don't end the 

616
00:37:56,100 --> 00:37:59,300
filibuster in the Senate and for
instance, get these voting 

617
00:37:59,300 --> 00:38:02,600
rights bills pass, nothing else 
is going to matter. 

618
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:08,500
We, we may be on the path to 
being Permanent minority rule 

619
00:38:08,500 --> 00:38:12,800
country, does you think Biden? 
Does he have an end game here 

620
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,000
with the mansions in the cinemas
of this world? 

621
00:38:15,300 --> 00:38:19,100
If I understood the inner see, 
one of the things is that I have

622
00:38:19,100 --> 00:38:23,800
almost no access to the inner. 
Like I'm taking the reason that 

623
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:25,900
when I wrote this piece about 
what's going on within the, you 

624
00:38:25,900 --> 00:38:29,900
know, within a Biden Economic 
Policy, team talking to people 

625
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,700
some insight and some outside 
his administration, I am so 

626
00:38:33,700 --> 00:38:36,600
distant from what is going on in
the head of Joseph Robinette. 

627
00:38:36,700 --> 00:38:38,100
Biden. 
I can't even tell you right? 

628
00:38:38,100 --> 00:38:40,000
Like it's a he is a complete 
mystery to me. 

629
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,000
He is a he's a president shaped 
president mmm. 

630
00:38:43,100 --> 00:38:46,300
I am very interested in what 
this President shaped president 

631
00:38:46,300 --> 00:38:51,600
is doing and I and I'm very open
to all kinds of guesses about 

632
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,100
why he's doing it and some of 
them may be sort of guessing it 

633
00:38:55,100 --> 00:38:59,200
like his psychology and his 
experience of loss or he's 

634
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:03,000
really old and his pre 
neoliberal or he's listening to 

635
00:39:03,008 --> 00:39:06,000
young people, but the sort of 
does he have a plan with mansion

636
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:07,700
and Cinema? 
How could anybody have a plan 

637
00:39:07,700 --> 00:39:09,700
with mansion in cinema? 
Is my first question again. 

638
00:39:09,700 --> 00:39:12,900
This is why I'm not a politician
and not the president because 

639
00:39:12,900 --> 00:39:14,100
I'm like the how do you deal 
with? 

640
00:39:14,100 --> 00:39:18,000
I mean like I'm I get sort of 
mad from the outside like get 

641
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,400
your people collect. 
Come on Schumer, come on, Biden.

642
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:24,500
Like collect your people get 
them under control, right? 

643
00:39:24,500 --> 00:39:28,700
You know, McConnell wouldn't let
this happen so but then I think 

644
00:39:28,700 --> 00:39:33,300
what do you do these Mansion in 
cinema, you know, this is a 

645
00:39:33,308 --> 00:39:37,000
degree of malevolence but what 
do you do? 

646
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,500
How do you fight it? 
So I don't, I wouldn't have, I 

647
00:39:39,500 --> 00:39:42,000
don't have a plan, my Plum, you 
know, my it plan from the 

648
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,900
outside is pull it together. 
People be a be a party, be a 

649
00:39:44,900 --> 00:39:48,700
party with a tiny majority, that
is one Health crisis away from, 

650
00:39:48,700 --> 00:39:53,200
it's not a real majority, right?
And I mean, even in numbers, it 

651
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,600
is one Health, crisis away from 
a minority. 

652
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,800
I have one idea of how I think 
he could do it, okay, but it's, 

653
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:04,000
it is the again, it's old. 
School politics and not the kind

654
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:09,100
that we like but I remember 
Lyndon Johnson getting all those

655
00:40:09,100 --> 00:40:13,800
Southern Democrats to vote for 
the Civil Rights bill and all of

656
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,100
that and he just brought them in
one by one, you know? 

657
00:40:17,100 --> 00:40:20,800
And I don't know, he was like 65
or whatever and just powered 

658
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:25,000
over them and just got out his 
finger and wagged it at him. 

659
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,100
And said, this is what you're 
going to do, but I don't like 

660
00:40:28,100 --> 00:40:30,300
that. 
I'm not suggesting that by now. 

661
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,300
Well, there's Also, I mean, what
is what it? 

662
00:40:33,300 --> 00:40:35,800
Who's there God? 
Right? 

663
00:40:35,900 --> 00:40:37,800
Because I don't know, maybe I 
am. 

664
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,300
It's God. 
Yeah. 

665
00:40:39,300 --> 00:40:42,600
Because whose Mansions got? 
Because I know what it is. 

666
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,100
What I know. 
It's money money, right? 

667
00:40:45,100 --> 00:40:47,100
You go, you bring them in and 
you buy them off. 

668
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,000
You go old school on this and 
you buy them, you don't you buy 

669
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,900
them off by getting Mansion a 
yacht and Cinema, some resort 

670
00:40:53,900 --> 00:40:56,700
property in Mexico. 
That's not how you do it. 

671
00:40:57,100 --> 00:41:00,700
You, they want to get reelected.
And the best way to do that is 

672
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:05,400
Is just have them come in and 
just say, tell me whatever it 

673
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:06,800
is. 
You need for West Virginia. 

674
00:41:06,900 --> 00:41:10,900
What do you need for Arizona? 
You talk about pork, I've got so

675
00:41:10,900 --> 00:41:15,700
much pork to give you its 
Limitless and so what can I do? 

676
00:41:15,900 --> 00:41:18,100
And who would be opposed 
actually to making West 

677
00:41:18,100 --> 00:41:21,500
Virginia, better State better 
for its poor people. 

678
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,700
Arizona, just say, what do you 
need because we need your votes 

679
00:41:25,700 --> 00:41:27,700
to get this voting rights thing 
passed. 

680
00:41:27,700 --> 00:41:30,100
We need to pass this 
infrastructure stuff and you've 

681
00:41:30,100 --> 00:41:33,400
got to do this. 
And and I am willing to give you

682
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,400
things that are not in this 
budget. 

683
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,700
I'm going to put them in the 
budget and I'm going to tell all

684
00:41:37,700 --> 00:41:39,500
the other Democrats. 
They've got to vote for it. 

685
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,600
Just make your list. 
Give me the list, just give me 

686
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:44,300
the list. 
Does this sound? 

687
00:41:44,700 --> 00:41:47,800
This is sound like Mike. 
Don't go back to those days. 

688
00:41:47,900 --> 00:41:49,500
Don't do that, right? 
Right. 

689
00:41:49,500 --> 00:41:51,700
No, I mean I don't I don't love 
that. 

690
00:41:51,700 --> 00:41:53,400
I don't love any of this. 
Right, right. 

691
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:55,800
So here's the most optimistic, 
guess about what we can say 

692
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,100
about what his strategy is. 
It is exactly how we got into 

693
00:41:59,100 --> 00:42:01,900
this portion of the conversation
which Is, let's find common 

694
00:42:01,900 --> 00:42:04,400
ground. 
It is a fan dance, right? 

695
00:42:04,900 --> 00:42:07,800
And I mean, because there's part
of me that's like Christ, this 

696
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:17,500
can't be real, right? 
You were Obama's vice president,

697
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,000
you live through this. 
You know, who these people? 

698
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:21,700
Like, who the opposition party 
is? 

699
00:42:22,100 --> 00:42:24,100
What are you talking about? 
Let's find common ground. 

700
00:42:24,100 --> 00:42:27,500
This is performance art here at 
this point, right? 

701
00:42:27,500 --> 00:42:32,700
I mean, I think that that's the 
only answer as to what is this 

702
00:42:32,700 --> 00:42:37,000
guy doing, right? 
I'm really just throwing things 

703
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,300
at the wall. 
Hoping something will stick 

704
00:42:39,500 --> 00:42:43,900
because we cannot not have these
bills passed. 

705
00:42:43,900 --> 00:42:47,600
They have to pass. 
Otherwise he will not win 

706
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,400
re-election. 
A lot of people who came out to 

707
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:54,900
vote this last time had never 
voted before and they came out 

708
00:42:54,900 --> 00:42:57,400
to get rid of trump. 
Now they've got to come out to 

709
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,800
keep Biden and he's got to give 
them a reason to keep. 

710
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:02,900
That's why the Voting Rights 
thing has to pass. 

711
00:43:03,100 --> 00:43:06,900
That's why these things to help 
children and other other. 

712
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,800
You know, the living wage 
everything that makes life 

713
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:15,200
better for for the average 
working person. 

714
00:43:15,300 --> 00:43:19,100
In in this country is is so 
important. 

715
00:43:19,100 --> 00:43:22,100
If this doesn't, if the 
Democrats don't do this, I'm 

716
00:43:22,100 --> 00:43:24,100
afraid that we will continue to 
have. 

717
00:43:24,900 --> 00:43:28,700
You know, when you, when the 
minority rule against, what the 

718
00:43:28,700 --> 00:43:33,100
majority want, you know, we know
what that's called, they don't, 

719
00:43:33,100 --> 00:43:35,500
they don't have the power. 
The power of the country rests 

720
00:43:35,500 --> 00:43:40,000
with the people who believe in 
civil rights, women's rights gay

721
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:41,900
rights, Etc. 
All that stuff. 

722
00:43:41,900 --> 00:43:45,100
That's where the majority of us 
are at for that to be denied. 

723
00:43:46,300 --> 00:43:51,600
To Us by this minority of 
politicians who do not represent

724
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,100
anywhere near the majority of 
this country. 

725
00:43:54,500 --> 00:43:57,800
But this is this is we have 
been, we are deluding ourselves.

726
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:02,000
If we think that my, the 
condition of minority rule is a 

727
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,000
future. 
This is the past, remember, 

728
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,700
right? 
We have had Donald Trump is not 

729
00:44:07,700 --> 00:44:11,100
the first minority rule 
President, right? 

730
00:44:11,100 --> 00:44:15,700
You know, George Bush won with a
minority and by the way, it was 

731
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,200
I mean, think about how this 
happened, you know, Trump loses 

732
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,800
the popular vote, he wins the 
presidency, thanks to the 

733
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,300
Electoral College, which is, you
know, designed originally, to 

734
00:44:26,300 --> 00:44:28,400
suppress majority opinion, 
right? 

735
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,900
That's that's part of the 
Electoral colleges design is 

736
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,500
minority rule, right? 
And it were has worked in a 

737
00:44:35,500 --> 00:44:40,800
couple of instances. 
He also that my the minority of 

738
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:45,600
the, you know, Barack Obama a 
popularly elected president 

739
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:50,400
twice Ice has his judicial 
appointments blocked by Mitch 

740
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,200
McConnell over the course of 
eight years, including a supreme

741
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,200
court. 
So the Supreme Court Justices, 

742
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:00,900
the court, that's going to 
decide, you know, and he could 

743
00:45:02,300 --> 00:45:04,500
voting abortion, labor climate 
like Health Care. 

744
00:45:04,500 --> 00:45:09,400
All of it r63 Court. 
Those justices have been 

745
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:14,600
appointed by presidents in 
Donald Trump and George Bush who

746
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:18,500
didn't win the match. 
Jordy of American voters and yet

747
00:45:18,500 --> 00:45:21,300
they have appointed the majority
of justices. 

748
00:45:22,100 --> 00:45:25,400
So, minority rule is our 
condition over the past few 

749
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:27,700
decades. 
That's how we are where we are. 

750
00:45:27,700 --> 00:45:33,200
It's how we got the court that 
that gutted the Voting Rights 

751
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:37,000
Act to begin with in 2013, 
right, right? 

752
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,100
Also remember that those 
justices themselves, right? 

753
00:45:40,100 --> 00:45:44,200
Isn't it true that a me koni, 
Barrett and Cavanaugh both 

754
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:49,800
worked on the Bush V, Gore her 
Roberts and Cavanaugh. 

755
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:51,400
Yeah. 
All worked. 

756
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:55,300
Three, a third of the Supreme 
Court actually worked on the 

757
00:45:55,300 --> 00:46:01,500
legal team that helped George W.
Bush, win the presidency, 

758
00:46:01,500 --> 00:46:07,200
despite losing the, the majority
of votes. 

759
00:46:07,700 --> 00:46:09,900
Right, right? 
No, this is. 

760
00:46:10,300 --> 00:46:14,400
This is why when we call this 
democracy, Now everything has 

761
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:18,000
gone upside down here. 
And nothing seems real. 

762
00:46:18,500 --> 00:46:21,300
We were joking talking about, 
you know, the covid fog that 

763
00:46:21,300 --> 00:46:23,400
we're all in but I thought I 
think that's just the way. 

764
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,300
We're just trying to laugh off 
the fact that we that we 

765
00:46:26,300 --> 00:46:30,000
somehow. 
Once again it seems like we may 

766
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,900
have won but we're losing and 
it's it's a, I mean, you've 

767
00:46:33,900 --> 00:46:36,300
written about, you know, the 
number of women have gotten 

768
00:46:36,300 --> 00:46:40,600
elected here in this in the last
decade or so but nonetheless you

769
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:42,900
know we're only at 25% of 
Congress. 

770
00:46:42,900 --> 00:46:46,400
Is are women the through the 
Gender. 

771
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:51,500
And and yet, and yet you control
25% of the power that historians

772
00:46:51,500 --> 00:46:55,900
won't look kindly upon us for 
celebrating the fact that we got

773
00:46:55,900 --> 00:47:00,000
25% of Congress about women. 
This is like anybody thinks this

774
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,300
job is over it's like this is 
anyways, I just looked this up. 

775
00:47:03,300 --> 00:47:07,100
I just found it here a few weeks
ago that a voting Congress to 

776
00:47:07,100 --> 00:47:13,800
form an official January 6 
commission to investigate the 

777
00:47:14,300 --> 00:47:18,500
uprising and And the vote was 
fifty, four in favor of forming,

778
00:47:18,500 --> 00:47:23,700
the commission, 35 against and 
the 35 one, because of this 

779
00:47:23,700 --> 00:47:27,000
crazy thing is old, bill must 
have 60 votes, otherwise we're 

780
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:29,200
afraid, we'll be filibustered 
and somebody like to talk on the

781
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,300
floor for 10 hours and this has 
got to stop. 

782
00:47:32,300 --> 00:47:33,800
I mean, I just, I don't know 
what to say. 

783
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:37,000
I'm just so I'm not the only one
people are livid about this, 

784
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:42,200
but, you know, the other thing I
wanted to say here too, is that.

785
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:49,500
So, you've written this thing 
about You know, you know, with 

786
00:47:49,500 --> 00:47:53,500
all with all the caveats and all
the, you know, things that I 

787
00:47:53,500 --> 00:47:58,300
say, when I say these things 
about Biden, but I have friends 

788
00:48:00,100 --> 00:48:02,300
on the left, I don't know if 
that's surprising or not. 

789
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:05,800
They were they refused to 
celebrate. 

790
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,500
Anything positive that's 
happened. 

791
00:48:08,500 --> 00:48:13,500
During the first six months of 
this of this presidency. 

792
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,400
I mean, if nothing else, the 
child tax, Edit this thing can 

793
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:18,500
be huge. 
You have nothing else. 

794
00:48:18,500 --> 00:48:22,000
It's huge, it's huge. 
It has to be made permanent. 

795
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:23,900
I'm going to like challenge 
residue, Laura who's been 

796
00:48:23,900 --> 00:48:26,100
fighting for the expansion of 
this tax credit for like 20 

797
00:48:26,100 --> 00:48:30,200
years, but it has to be made 
permanent and this is actually a

798
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:31,200
piece. 
Okay? 

799
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:33,200
I'm not, I'm not speaking about 
the execution, there are a lot 

800
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:35,000
of things, some of the people 
who are in deepest poverty, 

801
00:48:35,700 --> 00:48:38,000
there's not. 
I don't know that. 

802
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:41,900
There's a there's a lot that has
to be done with a policy. 

803
00:48:41,900 --> 00:48:45,000
This big and this different from
anything we've seen before 

804
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:48,300
around. 
Curation and selling it, and 

805
00:48:48,300 --> 00:48:50,700
making sure people know that 
this is happening and that they 

806
00:48:50,700 --> 00:48:55,800
can get access to it all, you 
know, there is a caveat about 

807
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:57,500
it. 
They talk about how it'll cut 

808
00:48:57,500 --> 00:49:00,300
child poverty in half, and I 
say, you hear what you're 

809
00:49:00,300 --> 00:49:02,900
saying, this is why it has to be
permanent. 

810
00:49:03,100 --> 00:49:06,800
It has to be permanent, but with
all the caveats about how it 

811
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:08,000
needs, and it needs to be 
executed. 

812
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:09,800
Well, and it needs to be made 
completely accessible. 

813
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,100
And people need to go into 
communities where they probably 

814
00:49:12,100 --> 00:49:13,500
are. 
There's not a huge amount of 

815
00:49:13,500 --> 00:49:15,600
awareness and and make sure 
everybody knows that. 

816
00:49:15,700 --> 00:49:19,600
Has no job requirement that. 
I mean it is a all of that said,

817
00:49:19,900 --> 00:49:22,000
this is a remarkable piece of 
legislation. 

818
00:49:22,100 --> 00:49:24,900
People are going to be getting 
checks. 

819
00:49:26,100 --> 00:49:30,500
From the government for their 
children and this is crucial and

820
00:49:30,500 --> 00:49:32,700
it is huge and I have that same 
issue. 

821
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,000
Look, do you have friends that 
are upset at you when you say 

822
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:37,600
something positive like that 
though. 

823
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:41,100
Oh yeah, I mean, look part of me
is upset at me when I say 

824
00:49:41,100 --> 00:49:43,100
something positive, I get it 
right? 

825
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:46,300
There's I understand. 
And by the way, one of my you 

826
00:49:46,300 --> 00:49:49,300
said something two minutes ago 
where you said the appearance 

827
00:49:49,300 --> 00:49:52,600
that we've won when actually 
we're losing, there is such a 

828
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:55,600
delicate and terrifying balance 
here, one of my great fear. 

829
00:49:56,300 --> 00:50:00,400
About the level of relief, I 
feel even, I felt me who hated 

830
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,600
Joe Biden, okay. 
For like, he not just in the 

831
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:07,600
2020 rates for years of my life,
like, Joe Biden was everything I

832
00:50:07,607 --> 00:50:13,600
didn't like about the Democratic
party and the relief, I felt in 

833
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:17,900
his victory. 
Scared me a little bit because I

834
00:50:17,900 --> 00:50:19,900
do think that all this stuff 
we've been talking about the 

835
00:50:19,900 --> 00:50:23,100
disruption that activism the 
fury, the pushing everybody 

836
00:50:23,100 --> 00:50:29,400
being able to see how how cruel 
and unjust things were and and 

837
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:31,900
Trump Shone a spotlight on that,
right? 

838
00:50:31,900 --> 00:50:36,900
And and I would like, that's not
like Silver Linings of trump 

839
00:50:36,900 --> 00:50:39,700
there, no Silver. 
Linings of trump, none none. 

840
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:44,800
But there was an undeniable Leti
about the venality. 

841
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:49,100
Right, there was a visibility 
and And a lack of window, 

842
00:50:49,100 --> 00:50:54,000
dressing around the malevolence,
the venality, the cruelty, the 

843
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:57,600
bigotry, right? 
That made people aware and then 

844
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,500
one of my big fears was, we're 
going to put a president shape, 

845
00:51:00,500 --> 00:51:03,600
president bandage on that, and 
we're going to feel such relief,

846
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:06,100
right? 
And the relief is going to be 

847
00:51:06,100 --> 00:51:09,600
numbing and it's going to be 
anesthetizing in a way. 

848
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:12,100
That's really dangerous. 
Because it was the, it was the 

849
00:51:12,100 --> 00:51:17,000
being asleep that that got us to
this point to begin with, right?

850
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:20,800
It, It was the passivity in the 
sort of like gentle feelings of 

851
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:22,800
relief and I don't need to think
about this anymore and I don't 

852
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:24,900
need to be angry, and I don't 
need to be unhappy, and I don't 

853
00:51:24,900 --> 00:51:27,000
need to post a hundred angry 
things on Facebook every day, 

854
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:29,000
because it's Joe, and it's going
to be fine. 

855
00:51:29,100 --> 00:51:31,900
That terrified me that we were 
actually going to be too 

856
00:51:31,900 --> 00:51:34,000
pleased. 
That lots of people who, you 

857
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:38,700
know, had spent, who had been 
awakened to how how, how cruel 

858
00:51:38,700 --> 00:51:42,400
so many systems in this country.
Are we're going to just feel 

859
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:44,700
like, well, now we fixed it and 
they were going to go back. 

860
00:51:44,700 --> 00:51:47,600
I mean the joke is back to 
brunch but that's was Been a 

861
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:49,500
real fear of mine. 
And so, how do you balance that 

862
00:51:49,500 --> 00:51:52,400
fear and wanting to keep people 
Vigilant and wanting all your 

863
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:56,000
friends on the left and and my 
friends and and and part of my 

864
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:57,300
brain. 
That's like, no, come on. 

865
00:51:57,300 --> 00:51:59,900
This is not good enough. 
This is like what what, what 

866
00:51:59,900 --> 00:52:01,800
about climate where the hell are
we on that? 

867
00:52:01,808 --> 00:52:05,500
You know what is happening. 
The there's a heat Dome all 

868
00:52:05,500 --> 00:52:08,100
these things that are not done 
that are so dissatisfied, you 

869
00:52:08,100 --> 00:52:10,400
want to stay vigilant, you want 
to stay angry and you have to, 

870
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:11,700
because that's how you keep 
pushing them. 

871
00:52:11,700 --> 00:52:15,900
But there is also the failure to
acknowledge the moments that 

872
00:52:15,908 --> 00:52:19,400
we've won. 
And I think it's Crucial or art 

873
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:23,000
have one something, right? 
And I think it's crucial, 

874
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:28,300
especially in the, in the effort
to maintain vigilance and anger 

875
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:32,500
to see the places where that 
vigilance and anger and work and

876
00:52:32,500 --> 00:52:38,100
effort over decades, right? 
Has created some change, right? 

877
00:52:38,100 --> 00:52:42,900
It matter, I do agree with that.
I'm very, you know, I'm just I'm

878
00:52:42,900 --> 00:52:46,100
saying that because I in my 
lifetime, I don't want to see a 

879
00:52:46,100 --> 00:52:50,700
congress that's Just 25 percent 
women but at the same time if we

880
00:52:50,700 --> 00:52:53,400
don't take time to celebrate 
these victories that we have 

881
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,900
it's hard to keep everybody. 
Let's it we got to keep moving 

882
00:52:56,900 --> 00:53:00,100
folks and it's like man. 
Can we just like get it just a 

883
00:53:00,100 --> 00:53:02,500
sip of water here? 
Please, I'm in the desert, 

884
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:04,200
right? 
You need to and I think people 

885
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:06,500
who have been a lot of these 
lessons or things. 

886
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:12,500
You know, so many people that I 
have written about over the past

887
00:53:12,900 --> 00:53:16,500
few years and who I have met and
talked to, and who's sort of 

888
00:53:16,500 --> 00:53:20,400
Awakenings to anger, I really 
admire right? 

889
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:23,300
A lot of people who didn't think
much was wrong. 

890
00:53:23,300 --> 00:53:25,500
There's a there's a whole 
population of suburban, white 

891
00:53:25,500 --> 00:53:28,000
women upper-middle-class. 
White women who were really 

892
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:33,400
awoken. 
To Injustice during the Trump 

893
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,000
years. 
And, you know, there are lots of

894
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:37,800
cynical approaches to take to 
that population. 

895
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:41,700
There's a lot of really Earnest 
like, you know, this is it's a 

896
00:53:41,700 --> 00:53:46,400
very interesting. 
Group of people and ideas that I

897
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:51,200
have been reporting on and 
thinking about a lot, but one of

898
00:53:51,207 --> 00:53:55,300
the things I found is that if 
you do not come from a tradition

899
00:53:55,300 --> 00:53:59,800
of protest and struggle, right? 
If you are not somebody who has 

900
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:02,600
been engaged in those fights for
most of your life, and if your 

901
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:05,000
parents weren't engaged, and if 
your grandparents weren't 

902
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:07,700
engaged and if your community 
hasn't traditionally been 

903
00:54:07,700 --> 00:54:10,800
engaged and in fact, you know, 
has been, if you've been 

904
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:13,400
complacent, if you've been part 
of a complacent community that, 

905
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:18,000
you know, no, in fact is on the 
profitable and abusive end of 

906
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:21,800
power and equities. 
There's not a great model for 

907
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:25,900
how do you put everything out on
the line to fight, right? 

908
00:54:25,900 --> 00:54:28,500
Whether that's registering 
voters, whether it's becoming 

909
00:54:28,500 --> 00:54:31,900
part of whether it's sort of out
Awakening to a various forms of 

910
00:54:31,900 --> 00:54:36,200
Injustice and, and using your 
resources to fight them and you,

911
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:39,000
and whether it's just caring, 
it's just putting, like, like 

912
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:43,100
people who care about these 
things know how painful it is. 

913
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:48,500
How often it is likely to be the
you're on the losing side. 

914
00:54:48,500 --> 00:54:49,800
If you're fighting from The 
Outsider. 

915
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:54,100
If you're fighting for some the 
top from, you know, alongside 

916
00:54:54,500 --> 00:54:57,500
the bottom, right? 
We also have to have models for 

917
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:06,200
rest and appreciation of moments
of Victory, and joy, and joy, 

918
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:10,900
and fun, and communion and, and 
community and Coalition, and the

919
00:55:10,908 --> 00:55:13,500
things you get even, because 
there's so much lost, right? 

920
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:15,700
Right. 
There's and a lot of people who 

921
00:55:15,700 --> 00:55:18,700
are new to activism who happened
to have been like white, 

922
00:55:18,700 --> 00:55:21,500
middle-class people who kind of 
been asleep for a lot of their 

923
00:55:21,500 --> 00:55:24,600
lives, are used to levels of 
comfort, and also used to levels

924
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:27,300
of winning. 
And so, there were moments 

925
00:55:27,300 --> 00:55:28,900
during the Trump. 
Here's like, the confirmation of

926
00:55:28,908 --> 00:55:30,600
Brett. 
Kavanaugh came, as such a shock 

927
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:33,600
to a lot of people, right? 
Who were out there protesting 

928
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:36,900
with all their heart and then he
was confirmed anyway, it was 

929
00:55:36,900 --> 00:55:39,200
like, what? 
But I but that's not fair. 

930
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:41,900
It's big, right? 
That's the experience of 

931
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:44,800
protesting and justices. 
Often having that Injustice 

932
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:48,600
confirmed for you. 
You know by losing and so 

933
00:55:48,700 --> 00:55:51,500
there's a lot to be learned for 
people who are new to this kind 

934
00:55:51,500 --> 00:55:54,100
of Engagement, but we must keep 
people engaged. 

935
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:57,400
So we have to offer models of 
like yes you got to keep working

936
00:55:57,400 --> 00:55:59,200
and you got to stay angry and 
you got it. 

937
00:55:59,300 --> 00:56:01,900
Keep awake. 
But you also got to take your 

938
00:56:01,900 --> 00:56:08,200
moments of pleasure, and joy and
and an affiliation and and fun 

939
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:11,300
because otherwise you're going 
to burn out. 

940
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:15,700
Absolutely. 
It's so, I hope everybody took 

941
00:56:15,700 --> 00:56:18,500
that the right way. 
When I when I said that how much

942
00:56:18,500 --> 00:56:23,000
we still have to do. 
Because I know, I know that most

943
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:25,300
people these days, especially 
during this pandemic are just 

944
00:56:25,300 --> 00:56:29,700
struggling to get through day by
day and don't know what's ahead 

945
00:56:29,900 --> 00:56:32,500
fear, what's ahead. 
Now, we have this new variant in

946
00:56:32,500 --> 00:56:34,100
front of us. 
What will happen? 

947
00:56:34,100 --> 00:56:35,700
This winter. 
I mean, the fear that people 

948
00:56:35,700 --> 00:56:40,400
have to live with now right now 
it's it's significant and so, 

949
00:56:40,500 --> 00:56:45,800
but at the same time, I'm when 
you, when you say that about, I 

950
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:48,000
assume that you've probably 
taken your kids to the 

951
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:50,100
demonstrations or whatever. 
Did this is that how you were 

952
00:56:50,100 --> 00:56:51,500
raised? 
Is that they do have parents 

953
00:56:51,500 --> 00:56:55,500
like that? 
I had parents who were is I did 

954
00:56:55,500 --> 00:56:59,700
not, I didn't have take me to 
demonstration parents, I did not

955
00:56:59,700 --> 00:57:01,200
grow up. 
In a protest culture, I grew up 

956
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:03,700
in a house that was very left. 
My mother had grown up like 

957
00:57:03,700 --> 00:57:07,700
staunch. 
In a staunchly republican family

958
00:57:07,900 --> 00:57:09,400
on a potato farm in northern 
Maine. 

959
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:12,700
My father had grown up in a 
socialist household in the 

960
00:57:12,700 --> 00:57:17,100
Bronx. 
My mother's politics had turned 

961
00:57:17,100 --> 00:57:20,000
left in college. 
And then they'd gotten married, 

962
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:23,500
I grew up in a left household 
but it wasn't a street protest 

963
00:57:23,500 --> 00:57:24,600
household. 
It was a much more 

964
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:33,500
intellectualized left household 
and you know, some I think the 

965
00:57:33,500 --> 00:57:39,100
first protest I went to was in 
junior high with my friend, my 

966
00:57:39,100 --> 00:57:42,700
one of my best friend's. 
Who is more of a it was a it was

967
00:57:42,700 --> 00:57:45,800
a abortion rights protest 
although at that point it was 

968
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:47,900
probably called a pro-choice, 
which I hate the language of 

969
00:57:47,900 --> 00:57:51,700
choice around abortion, but it 
was a pro-choice protest, 

970
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:56,000
probably in 86 or something in 
Washington. 

971
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:57,300
I can't remember what year it 
was. 

972
00:57:57,300 --> 00:57:59,900
And I went on a bus with my best
friend and her mother, that was 

973
00:57:59,900 --> 00:58:05,000
the first sort of, you know, 
entry into that world. 

974
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:10,100
But I grew up in a house that 
was very left, politically it. 

975
00:58:10,300 --> 00:58:12,700
It wasn't a. 
Let's go to a demonstration. 

976
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:14,900
My first protest, actually was 
the same age. 

977
00:58:15,100 --> 00:58:18,300
You were except it wasn't, it 
wasn't about. 

978
00:58:18,300 --> 00:58:21,400
It was basically used to serve 
this thing called Thursday 

979
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:24,700
surprised at lunch. 
It was all the leftovers from 

980
00:58:24,700 --> 00:58:28,200
Monday through Wednesday and so 
I we organized a walk out of the

981
00:58:28,207 --> 00:58:31,100
cafeteria because we were sick 
of eating Thursday, surprise. 

982
00:58:31,300 --> 00:58:35,000
I know that's not very Noble, 
but it, you know, you got to 

983
00:58:35,008 --> 00:58:37,200
start somewhere, you got to 
start somewhere. 

984
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:42,100
And I am so happy that we 
started here right here with 

985
00:58:42,100 --> 00:58:47,400
Rebecca Tracer today, a great 
writer and a great conversation 

986
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:50,700
that we just had about where 
we're at right now in this 

987
00:58:50,700 --> 00:58:54,200
country, but I couldn't let it 
end right there. 

988
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:59,700
We were not done and that's why 
we're going to go to part 2 of 

989
00:58:59,700 --> 00:59:03,000
this conversation next week on 
Rumble. 

990
00:59:03,500 --> 00:59:07,800
And I'll give you a heads up, 
Rebecca, as I mentioned at the 

991
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:12,100
beginning, I mean, one of the 
early and original writers in 

992
00:59:12,100 --> 00:59:17,400
the me to movement and trying to
deal with the patriarchy and the

993
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:21,400
men who make it miserable for 
women at work at school 

994
00:59:22,100 --> 00:59:25,800
wherever. 
And so, I started asking her 

995
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:30,600
about that and and we got into 
talking about Harvey Weinstein 

996
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:38,000
and she had her own run-ins with
him and he had distributed a All

997
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:41,000
of my movies and we just kind of
let it go. 

998
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:48,800
And we started talking about it.
And then that led to me talking 

999
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:55,000
about a particular individual, 
man of what I had witnessed in 

1000
00:59:55,000 --> 01:00:01,700
the office, many, many years ago
and we named names and we get 

1001
01:00:01,700 --> 01:00:08,200
into it, the it being the 
sexual, harassment and abuse Of 

1002
01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:13,300
women and boy, I'll tie this was
some conversation to have. 

1003
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:17,400
I wanted it to have its own 
episode and we talked about what

1004
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:22,300
we still need to do, what we can
do, what people can do, but it 

1005
01:00:22,300 --> 01:00:26,800
became kind of a personal 
discussion for me, and I want 

1006
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:30,400
you to hear it. 
It's very powerful and so that's

1007
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:33,200
what we're going to do on next 
week's Rumble. 

1008
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:40,200
So join me, then for part two of
our episode here with Rebecca 

1009
01:00:40,300 --> 01:00:46,300
Tracer and my thanks to our 
executive producer here today as

1010
01:00:46,300 --> 01:00:50,800
a Lampton, our editor and sound 
engineer, Nick Waze, and to 

1011
01:00:50,808 --> 01:00:54,400
everybody else who supports this
podcast listens to it 

1012
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:58,800
underwrites it much appreciated.
There's a lot of work to do. 

1013
01:00:59,300 --> 01:01:02,100
We're the ones to do it right? 
Yes. 

1014
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:07,600
So I will look forward to 
joining you next week here on 

1015
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:13,300
Rumble for part, two with 
Rebecca Tracer and the Harvey. 

1016
01:01:13,300 --> 01:01:18,100
Weinstein + episode, so stay 
tuned for that. 

1017
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:22,600
See you next Thursday, this is 
Michael Moore and this is 

1018
01:01:23,000 --> 01:02:07,900
humble. 
What's your part only heart?