Now, I'm awake to the world. I was asleep before until we let
it happen. When they slaughtered Congress,
we didn't wake up when they blame terrorists and suspended
the Constitution. We don't wake up then either.
They said it would be temporary. Nothing changes instantaneously.
And it gradually heating bathtub, you'd people to death
before you knew it. Hello.
This is Rumble with Michael Moore and I am Michael Moore.
And we are listening right now. To the soundtrack from the
series, The handmaid's Tale. If you haven't read the book by
Margaret Atwood, if you didn't see the original movie back in
the 80s, or if you haven't watched the series, starring
Elizabeth Moss on Hulu, over the last, maybe four years.
It's never too late to start. It's one of the most frightening
stories. I don't know if they classified
as a horror movie. It should be It's a tale
supposedly set in the near future when the United States
becomes a religious fascist country, the religious, right
takes over. Renames.
The United States of America, the Republic of Gilead.
And women lose all of their rights, those who are still
fertile because there has been some unexplained environmental
disaster that has made the vast majority of women infertile.
So the fertile ones are essentially kidnapped by the
government and sent to camps where they are trained to be
essentially raped and then made pregnant by the Commander's the
elite. Eat of the right-wing.
And then when the baby is born, it's given to the commander and
his wife to race in the new fascist Republic of the United
States. It's the most mind-bending thing
I've maybe ever seen on television because it feels
obviously, so real and so close. I remember thinking back in the
first season this is so great. Thank God, you know, where
nothing like this. And then in the after four years
of trump and then this would happen this past week.
Were political was able to get a copy of and leak the 98.
Beige decision that has already been written by Justice.
Alito declaring, Roe versus Wade over declaring abortion, illegal
completely illegal. And providing a series of
arguments that are stunning in there ultimately their hatred of
women, their desire to control the majority gender and their
disregard for the constitutional rights to privacy and opening
the door to go beyond abortion and do the other things that
they've been wanting to do. Now, for some years, starting
with ending, same sex. Marriage reversing that decision
from 2015, making the morning after pill and the abortion
pill, illegal illegal to transport across state lines
illegal to mail, to a friend, or a relative whole series of
things that they've already state legislators in Tennessee,
Louisiana, Oklahoma, Texas. They've already started working
on these. They've already started passing
bills. It's all a ramp up to what's
going to happen in the next few weeks, when they officially
declare, that women no longer have a right to control their
reproductive organs. Where women are going to be
forced. To be pregnant once pregnant,
stay pregnant, and then give birth some nine months later.
Also, let me explain just before we get too far down the road
here. In today's episode, when you
hear me or the guests, or anybody use the word, or term
women or women, we mean, that more broadly.
We are also talking about people who can get pregnant and that
includes trans and non-binary folks.
So let's live in the 21st century, my friends and that,
while we may still be using this word in the context of this
conversation, We are including anybody who can get pregnant.
But it's stunning to even kind of say those words, isn't it?
That this is the country, we're going to be living in this
version of a handmaid's tale. Forced pregnancy, once pregnant,
you're forced to carry to term. And also a declaration that a
fertilized egg is a human being that you are a human being a
full human being with human rights at conception.
And Louisiana has already started to in their bill, not
only saying that, but if you do anything to a fertilized egg,
you are a murderer. They're going to make it an
actual homicide. And women who if they do have an
abortion, a doctor who performs an abortion, the plan is to
arrest him on charges of murder. I'm not making this up.
I know a lot of people just turn the news off this week because
it just can't get any worse than this, right?
But I don't think that there's ever been a Supreme Court
decision that has removed an actual right, a right that we as
Americans have and that's what this decision is going to do.
You women says the court. Are no longer full citizens.
Your now, sit going to be second-class citizens.
As I wrote this past week, I'm a subset column which I'll put a
link to here on the podcast page or you can go just go to Michael
more.com and it will come up. It's called the forest birth
ruling and I lay out my reaction to what the Supreme Court has
done. I really, if you haven't read
it, I love for you to read it. It's free.
There's nothing behind a pay wall on the sub stack.
If you wanted, subscribe and donate to our work and the
things that we're planning to do in the coming.
Year, thank you. You can do that.
But you don't need to honest to God.
I want to, I have not I'm trying to think of a time during my
lifetime. When something so evil has taken
place in the name of you and I in the name of the United States
of America and there's been bullying me there's been a lot
of a lot of instances. I could cite a lot of events,
but honestly, I think I'd have to go back to August of 1964.
I'll was I then just a tyke a kid when Lyndon Johnson and his
Administration lied that we've been attacked by the North
Vietnamese and then they in Congress, all of Congress.
All the United States Senate, with only two senators voting,
no to voted to begin the Vietnam War.
The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. So for me to say that this past
week II, don't that regardless of all the other awful things
that have been done in our name in these years since Vietnam,
nothing I think matches the Supreme Court getting ready to
remove the rights of free citizens.
The rights of the majority gender of women.
And if we allow this to happen, and here's the lesson, if you
haven't seen read the handmaid's tale, the lesson is it starts
with one thing and if you don't stop that, one thing.
It is a snowball that turns into an avalanche These will not be
the last rites. They take away these bastards,
these right-wingers these sick fascist, these white
supremacists, these women haters.
These, I mean, it is so catastrophic in the sense that
that, you know, in the past. Yes, you know, we would have our
disagreements on either side of the political fence, or we, or
we'd have multiple disagreements, because there
shouldn't be just two sides of a political fence in a democracy.
There should be five sites 10 sides if you want to make sure
that the entire spectrum of political thought is represented
in our democracy, we don't have that.
We've never had that. We've never achieved the
so-called American Dream. That we've been told about.
Since the beginning. They're not going to stop here,
my friends. You know that?
If you don't know that, you are setting yourself up for a very,
very bad situation that someday will involve you and your
rights. You won't be able to just sit
back and say well I'm not a woman nothing's going to happen
to me here. I'm not gay nothing's going to
happen to me here. I'm not black or brown.
If you are, if you have any kind of thinking like that, I can
guarantee you and I assure you That, that kind of thinking that
response. Will result in your eventual
downfall. We're really in deep trouble, my
friends and you know it and I know a lot of people don't want
to think about this. I know that's why we turn the
news off, but we all have to act now I'm not messing around.
I will not live in Gilead. I will not allow this small
percentage. Do you see the polls by the end
of the week? After this decision, was leaked
over 70% of Americans oppose getting rid of Roe v-- Wade and
only 27% 27th is ABC News poll, 27 percent support, the right
wing, getting rid of abortion. That's it just twenty seven
percent. We are the majority, vast
majority. And by the way, the poll also
showed that I forget the exact number, but that it was
something in the 30s, like 30-some percent of Republicans
oppose getting rid of Roe v-- Wade.
Because, of course, even Republicans find themselves with
a pregnancy. They can't handle a pregnancy
that's unwanted. And if take advantage of the
fact that this has been a country that has freely allowed
for and made it possible though. With so many restrictions by
now, and so many states with maybe only one or two clinics.
Still made it possible that if you wanted to get an abortion,
even if you're a republican, you could get one and you did.
I won't live in Gilead, you won't either we have to take
action and we have to take action now and I have today, an
incredible guest who is a fellow at the Ford foundation and is an
attorney civil rights. Incredible woman who has for
years been studying and developing the plan to prevent
the handmade still. Her name is Cynthia, Conti cook
and she very specifically has focused on the surveillance
state that we Created in this country and how it will be used.
Against women to stop them. If they think there is still
going to find a way to get an abortion, they're going to find
themselves in prison and she will be my guest here in just a
few minutes and we are going to talk about the real life
handmaid's tale. That's already in existence.
Before we bring Cynthia out, let me just take a second here to
thank my wonderful Underwriters of this podcast that the people
who helped make this happen and support my voice support, the
other voices, I bring on this podcast, I'm incredibly grateful
and I've got a new underwriter today brand-new.
I'm really excited to announce, and that new underwriter is
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That is Shopify. A long time, supporter of
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Commerce platform that powers millions of small businesses
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So onto our episode here today, Cynthia Conti cook.
Is an award-winning civil rights attorney writer speaker and
researcher. She is currently a technology
fellow at the Ford Foundation, working with the foundation's
gender racial and ethnic Justice, team where they study
the expanding, use of surveillance Technologies
against immigrant communities, as well as the potential use of
technology to create. Criminalize people who seek or
Aid. Abortions.
Such important work right now before doing this.
She was a civil rights litigator and a public defender for the
Legal Aid, Society of New York, where she pioneered a
first-of-its-kind public database that tracks misconduct
by the New York City police officers.
Thank you for that Cynthia. Her work has been featured in
The New York Times, the American Bar Association and the
intercept, and she has earned several Awards including the
2019, legal Rebel. Award from the American Bar
Association. Please, everyone on this very
important episode in this very important week in the life of
this country. Please welcome, Cynthia.
Conti cook. Thank you, Cynthia so much for
coming on my podcast today. Thank you for the invitation it
seen you on CNN and at the end of your interview I was so moved
and so I learned things but it really also shook me.
Me to my core a bit because while I and most of the people,
I think listening to this know that we have grown into a
surveillance state, that is often run by police who are
often not trained to be on the side of Justice.
Even though that they're part of the justice system, maybe we
just start with ad but then I want to really get into.
I have this sense that that were becoming a nonfiction reality
show version of the handmaid's tale.
Well, thank you for that jumping off.
Point. I actually wanted to go back to
when you spoke about, how the people who get pregnant our 4/5
human because they're sort of taking one fists of their organs
and controlling them, their reproductive organs.
But really, we have to start understanding how the
reproductive organs are part of the whole.
I think the same is true for Reproductive Justice, right?
Reproductive Justice is also indivisible from all other forms
of justice and all other forms of the types of integrated
support systems. We need to make conditions
conducive to life on the earth that we live on.
And so I just want to start by saying that the right to decide
whether or when to have a child is essential for social economic
and Racial equality reproductive autonomy and the right to
determine our own Futures. And that when abortion care is
as accessible individuals and families and their communities,
really Thrive and it's the right to maintain bodily autonomy.
And what I really want to talk about Today is the ways that
going forward, we have to start really integrating the idea of
bodily and digital autonomy together.
And there's many people out there who've been sort of saying
this for a long time. But going forward, we have to
think of our digital devices in the data that they are leaving
everywhere to be vacuumed up. We have to start thinking of
those things as extensions of us and extensions of what can
become modified from us. And therefore we have to really
embrace the idea that in order Order to have bodily autonomy.
We also have to have more control and ownership over the
data that is being extracted from us, not just to create
things that advertise the right, you know, yoga pants back to us.
But also realize that the data is being extracted from us so
that other kinds of Corporations can create tools based on our
data that they then sell to governments to use against us
like all of the biometric technology, the surveillance
technology. And many other things.
And, you know, then when we try to find out about how those
tools work, they call it, Trade Secrets, and the combination,
the really toxic triple threat of police secrecy, corporate,
secrecy and algorithmic, secrecy together means that the
landscape of the world we're living in in terms of the
digital tools and their ability to take information from us.
They're very sophisticated in a way that they definitely were
not before the 1970s, right? I mean all Ready in just the
days after the release of this, by political of the news of the,
what the Supreme Court is planning to do state
legislatures and governors, they've already signed bills
this week. Yes.
Regarding the abortion pill. That if you even attempt to mail
it to a friend, or a family member, you risk being arrested
the criminalized economy. Wow, just from what I saw in
these bills and these things that they plan on doing in these
states of collecting information surveillance.
They want to know who's even thinking about having an
abortion. We will you just explain some of
this because when I heard you on CNN I just I had not thought
about just how deep of a dive this is going to be on the part
of our so-called law enforcement especially in communities that
are poor are of color and the way you described it it wasn't
it wasn't like you were trying to whip everybody.
Hey, make sure you go vote this November you were just plainly
stating the facts that you have spent years researching, and
advocating. Against or for can I just just
turn it over to you and just have you explain just how
serious this is. And that it already is it's not
something that is going to happen in a few months or a few
years. That's right.
It is the future that is here.
And the thing that I really want to emphasize is that while this
feels new because the leak this week, really electrified the way
that we're all paying attention to this but it doesn't make it
new. This is actually a trend that's
increasingly been happening since Was an 11 anti-abortion,
lawmakers have pushed more than 500 restrictive, laws, through
state legislatures, that make abortion difficult and sometimes
impossible to access. And before that, there's a long
history, the Hyde Amendment Etc of the ability to financially
access abortion was prohibitive for black women and a lot of
other indigenous women and people from communities of color
who were pregnant and seeking some option to terminate.
And so this is not new. New, the national advocates, for
pregnant women and organizations.
Like if one, how have actually been documenting and
broadcasting to us for a long time, that pregnant people have
been charged with murder for conduct related to or
accusations related to the termination of their
pregnancies. This is happening, there is a
woman in Indiana who was charged in 2015.
I believe and another woman in Mississippi in 2017, who was
charged for murder when she arrived at the hospital with a
stillborn fetus. This has happened, their digital
devices were searched in their criminal cases because police
were able to get into the device and do keyword searches that
helped them. Find the information about that
text message to a friend that's like, hey, I'm scared and I
think I'm going to try to terminate this pregnancy.
It was really basic types of information that we're all
co-creating with our digital devices every day.
And that leaves a really strong trail of evidence of intent,
that Tutors really treat as precious when they have a case
where otherwise the only evidence is that a woman
appeared in a hospital with a miscarriage.
And I don't want to say that in any way, we should not be able
to use these digital tools. I'm not anti-technology, I love
it. I think that it's really
powerful but we have to realize that it's more of a friend of me
than a friend. Because at the moment, we have
zero control over how our data is extracted collected.
Needed and sold specifically to law enforcement that then, you
know, Target us with it. But we can't find out about that
because it was created by a corporation.
So the police have the they have the means and they have there
are people within police departments that know exactly
how to find stuff in a way that you are.
I don't know if you let me borrow your phone or you take
mine, it would take me hours probably to yes, no one wants to
do that or and no one walks through that.
So but the police These are different, they have tools, you
know and this is not done under the circumstances conducive to
consent building, right? This is done, typically under
circumstances where someone feels like they are the subject
of an investigation even if they're not officially calling
it that or if it's happening in a hospital instead of a
Precinct. If there's a dynamic where the
police are like, hey, you don't mind if I look through your
phone right, and that lands on someone and like I have to do
that in order to comply to get out of It's because people when
they're in that crisis mode, in that Dynamic, with an authority
figure who has a gun on their hip.
There are just not in a space of mind to try to critically
analyze. What, you know, what they could
possibly mean by, hey, can I have your phone for a second?
Because we think our phones are locked.
Our phones are difficult to search through in that.
Sort of way, you have to, like, wear your thumb pads out
scrolling so deeply to try to find some nugget.
That's how we think about it, because that's how we interact
with our phones. We interact with them.
Like what we see on them is what there is, but there is
mountains. There can be months and years of
data, depending on your settings about where you've been about,
who you are in contact with about what you search for on the
internet and about what websites you visited.
And if you do anything, in addition to that, like have apps
that your diligently tracking, your menstrual cycle and all of
your symptoms around it, then that is just more data that you
are gifting out into the That is fear.
That's being you know, sucked up by data Brokers and traded.
And you can bet that if there is a market for law enforcement to
investigate people for whether they have ever formed an intent
to have an abortion or to terminate their pregnancy, there
is going to be companies that try to fill those markets and
create tools based on our data. That is sold to law enforcement
to help them investigate those. Because we know that about every
other type of crime, whether it's sex, It's work or its
drugs. Everything everything that
relies on the dark web to sort of move around, and now, we're
also talking about gender affirming, health care and
medical marijuana, and and many other things, right?
This is not just about, you know, it is absolutely In This
Moment all about abortion. However, it is also going to
impact many more people in many more spaces.
And, yes, that sounds like gloomy and awful and it is.
But it is also a really A good moment for solidarity.
Well yeah, we need to know this Cynthia because if we're
ignorant for in the dark about it or not, going to be able to
fight it and it'll be too late. We need to do something about
this years ago. Another example is, I mean, a
couple friends of mine who after 9/11 arab-americans very afraid
to go and look up anything about never use the word terrorism,
never use, you know. Yes, anything and all they
wanted to do was find out what's going on.
That's it. I just wanted to find What's
going on, not breaking any laws and all of a sudden they get a
knock at the door. Yep.
You just want to ask a few questions.
Yeah, don't worry. Can we come in, you know, you
got to give him permission to come in because they don't have
a warrant in fact for the cops to take your phone and to do a
search in your phone, don't they have to have a warrant.
There's only one state where police are required to get a
warrant to get into your digital device and that's in Michigan.
And the reason that they made the warrant requirement is, That
I think it was recognized. People cannot conceive of the
amount of consent that they are granting to police when they
hand their device over. And by the way, it's not just
police who have these digital forensic extraction tools.
It's also immigration agents and it is public schools and many
other state agencies, use them and are equipped with them.
And by the way, they are quite expensive.
And by the way, you have to hire someone to run them and also
update them every time. Any device that you want to
analyze is going to be updated, so it's an expensive Endeavor.
So you can be sure that they don't just Reserve these tools
for the moments. When they have a serious violent
felony, they use them all the time on every case where they
can use them, and there's a tech policy organization called
upturn. That has issued a fantastic
report called Mass extraction, about the depth and the breadth
of the they call it the mobile device forensic tool and The
amount of them that there are out in the country how
unregulated they are and how expansive their uses without any
restriction. So, for example, in Wisconsin,
recently there was actually a case where a man's phone has.
Digital device was extracted for an investigation of a crime.
That happened in County a and he consented to allowing it to be
used for that purpose and they extracted the information.
And nothing happens. He's not arrested three months
ago by and a different sheriff's department and a different
County investigating a different crime.
The court said it was allowed to use the data from the other
case, in that new case, even though that was not the purpose
that he submitted it for. And so, it's really important to
understand, not only like, how much of this Hardware there is
out there but also how much digital evidence they have
Already taken how they are. Just storing it somewhere and
they have at least from their perspective.
No restrictions on how they're allowed to share it and use it.
So just amazing. I'm a little stunned by the fact
that Michigan is the only state that actually requires a search
warrant when it comes to the phone.
Why Michigan? Amazing.
Advocates. There's the Detroit Community
Technology. Act and other really fantastic
advocates in Detroit that have been organizing and really
educating everyone about what the meaning of digital autonomy
is and how we have to start insisting on more ownership of
our digital information. So that when it's used to impact
our lives, with these tools that we interact with on a daily
basis because they've been set up to surveil people, right?
We need to know how they were made.
What are they supposed to be doing?
How much is being spent on them? And between the opacity City of
the procurement process and other instruments of corporate
secrecy like Trade Secrets and the expansion of intellectual
property. We have a situation where it's
going to be more and more difficult for us to insist on
information that we need in order to truly understand how
our government is involved in controlling us.
So what you're saying is that the police have these devices
search and Discovery devices, whatever polite name that they
gave it and they can take that. That and they can take your
phone, can they do something? Just as simple as search for any
time you might have typed in the word abortion.
Yes they can do keyword searches on your digital device.
So I've seen these printouts before.
There are 2,000 page PDF sometimes and you type in a
keyword and it finds every time that word was used.
Whether it was in a text message or on your calendar or somewhere
else within the data that's collected by your phone, you
know the newer Is also give you options like image searches or
arrange it by social network. Arrange it in chronological
order map. It onto a geographic map, map,
it onto a social network. There's new capabilities.
And there's different levels of fanciness with the types of
instruments that are extracting the information.
But can you do a keyword search for abortion?
Hell yeah. Wow, somebody wrote me after I
posted my subset column and said, no Mike.
You know, you're getting a little, you know, worked up
here. It's only the 26 states that Are
going to immediately, you know, ban abortion like only 26.
Okay. But yeah, but the other 24,
whatever they're going to, you know, fight this and they're
going to make it their states available.
I wrote the person back and I said just because the news is
telling you this week, that well it's going to be still legal in
20. You don't have any idea what's
going on here? And maybe neither do I because
things can happen really quick quicker than you think.
And again, just to reference the handmaid's tale.
Again, that scene where Couple of friends.
Couple women were having a coffee in a coffee shop and they
go to pay for it with a credit card and all of a sudden she
can't she can't because they've women no longer can use their
credit cards or have a credit card without their husbands
permission and later main character is thinking back,
trying to remember, when did the slow drip?
Drip, drip start, she's looking at the wall of paper, newspaper
clippings, right? Yes, yes, yeah.
I know, I always think of that moment to because that's the
moment where, Where she's looking back in time from the
future and being like, holy shit.
There was the intervention there was through the Looking Glass
right there. Was that moment that we had,
where we should have seen it, because it was being broadcast
to us, and we knew we were smart.
So why didn't we see it? Because it's been hidden from us
because because it's it's been very subtly exposed, right?
And I think we're also raised to believe in the end.
The narrative continues to be pushed on us.
Well, Mike, The United States of America, it's not going to be
like that, not going to get that bad, it's the United States and
of course you know again for those of us who grew up in a
different era, maybe Vietnam as I mentioned earlier and as I've
we've talked about this on the podcast before the nine boys
from my high school that came back in a box.
I learned very early that stuff can happen and it can happen
quick and before you know it I just worry Amanda.
Don't know what your experience has been this last week but I
worry about anybody who who don't know how to put this.
Somebody said to me they need we need an emoji with a hair on
fire. We need to all be in the street,
we're running down the street with her hair on fire because do
not believe this is just well, it's just one thing and they'll
fix some of this. They're not going to stop women
who have been raped or incest or, you know, I just know.
It won't get that bad, but I think that's a dangerous way to
think. And I don't mean you've Be
paranoid or, you know whatever. I think you just need to
realize. Yeah, you do live in the United
States of America. Yes.
And you need to be very very aware and thank God.
We do still have some tools called tools of democracy
because I don't want to believe that the other side in this is
going to win this. They have to be defeated.
That's right. There are things that we can do
to minimize the exposure that our data has.
And we have the tools that we can learn and we can share with
our communities and help protect each.
Other the more that we think about digital safety as a
community practice and not just like well what did they want
with my information or what do they want from my data?
I'm I haven't committed any crime but it's not just about
you. It's about you the safety of
your community and your network and how it you might be a
Connecting Point for the community that you're trying to
keep safe. And so the more that we are able
to think about these things together in an integrated way
and like I said there's lots of bodies of work of already
building around this in this. In this idea, like Professor
ruhub Benjamin's work around informed refusal and really
making that the default. So that there's a true
obligation to engage and inform, and default to no, you cannot
have my data, it's mine and I can withhold it or perhaps it
can be in another way some source for you that you can use.
But it's a resource that you can decide how to deploy or how not
to according to Your values and I think that like one of the
values is is just like not leaving people behind.
And in any way that this is a moment where we can actually
expansively think about solidarity and cross movement
learning between the need to be able to use technology tools to
access information about abortion.
We also need it to access information about gender,
affirming care. And in every other type of
criminal eyes De Cana me, where the thing that has been
criminalized is related to our ability, to take care of
ourselves. Else?
Whether it's medical marijuana or anything else, right?
Like this is about our ability to maintain both bodily and
digital autonomy together. What do we need to take our
heads out of the sand here, especially as it regards to
abortion as Elisabeth Moss says. In that scene, we were not awake
and then she says, but I'm awake now.
Yeah but I don't want to win. I don't want to wait till that
moment that were finally awake. I think that needs to happen
quickly. Yeah, what do we do here?
Now, well first we have to do oppression management, right?
We have to use the tools that we have, like, don't hand over your
phone to police, or to a social worker to a case worker or
someone who might handed over to law enforcement, treat it like
it's an extension of you treat it.
Like if you handed it over it would incriminate you treat it
that way whether or not that is true.
Use encrypted Communications. Send your mother, a Happy
Mother's Day message on Signal and get used to really casually
using It having your contacts, they're having it open being
familiar with how it works and same thing for anti
fingerprinting browsers. So that if you ever are in
crisis mode, or if anyone in your network is ever in crisis
mode, you have the tools already set up that will never guarantee
you complete protection, but they will shrink the amount of
surface area that your data footprint is leaving behind you.
And with that, they can really Make them have to either, you
know, hack for it or work for it or litigate for it or pay for
it. And the most that we can do in
this oppression management context in this inside of a
crisis, is that we can try to spread these tools that just
protect each other, but it doesn't solve the problem and
the problem is that we're criminalizing economies of care
the other. You know, problem is that we're
doing that inside of a system of very sophisticated.
Data surveillance where we are co-creating information about
ourselves but we are not able to retain any control over it.
I mean, I've never given Apple my fingerprint.
I can take the time to type in. What the password is to get
online. I try to tell people, don't give
them your fingerprints really. Yeah.
Yeah, I know. It's it's, it's gifting them
that, right? Like, it's tying a bow around
it, your yourself or a part of yourself and giving it away for
free, which if that's your choice, that's fantastic and And
all power to you but just know that the potential consequences
of the choices. So what do we do?
We get together right? Like we like now yeah we teach
each other and we think about ways to organize and build power
that helps us. Do it in collaboration, do it
out loud. Imagine and like, really try to
create a Visionary, awareness, beyond what is possible.
I want to, like Point, everyone's Attention to if when
and how and their reproducible defense fund that covers bail
and fun defense and the Repro legal help line, that provides
free, confidential Legal Information and advice.
I've heard of this group, can you explain a little more who
they are, what they do? Because I think a lot of people
don't know that there already are groups that have been formed
long before. Now in anticipation of this
moment, if went out a fantastic organization that transforms the
law and policy landscape, I'm reading from there who we are
page. Through advocacy support and
organizing so that all people have the power to determine if
when and how to define create and sustain families, with
dignity and to actualize, sexual, and reproductive
well-being on their own terms and they are fabulous.
Are they Nationwide or yes? So we can any of us can go on
Google or whatever type in if when how right yeah I would
recommend you know and fingerprinting browser maybe
instead. Oh yeah Google Look them up.
And this is this emphasizes the problem.
We need these tools, right? Like in this segment on CNN,
yesterday at the closing of my co-panelists remarks, she listed
a ton of websites, right? Which just speaks to like, this
is how we communicate. Of course, that's how we share
resources, however, by using the tools that they have given us
and, you know, always be aware of the tools they give you my
father used to say, You have to know what kind of Trail you're
leaving behind you, and there are steps that you can use to
protect you. Like I said, just shrink the
footprint even though you can't erase it.
You can't guarantee it's gone. But you can take some steps for
protection in the meantime. And also we've got to get
together and really start figuring out how we want to be
able to protect ourselves now, and also protect this place so
that it will be here for our kids, right?
Yes, you mentioned a safer browser.
What would a safer browser be other than Google?
I personally use DuckDuckGo. For example, Firefox is another
example. You know, the ones you can.
I encourage people rather than being like this one, this one.
And this one. I really encourage people to try
to get familiar with just going to the terms of service and
starting to educate yourselves about the differences between
the tools were using and anytime before you download an app, Try
to get information about what kind of data they're extracting
from you when you're using it. So that you're constantly just
treating. Like I said, your, your phone is
your Frenemy, not your friends, just like know what you want to
use it for but also like, know what you want to keep from it
because it's your Frenemy, it's not your friend free rights,
right? Few years ago, somebody made a
documentary a call. I think that was the title terms
of service. Yes.
If you have a chance, I'm sure you can find it online.
But it's like that thing. You always Check without ever
reading it. If you after you watch this this
movie you're going to go. I've got to read this from now
on. This is scary stuff here.
But you also mention signal, tell people, especially people
who are not familiar with signal, what that is and why
that's maybe a bit better than the normal way of communicating
signal is end-to-end encrypted. And again there's a few
different apps that are promising.
Encryption just try to familiarize yourself.
Find Nation about what they're actually doing.
If you have to turn off your side, encryption, if the person
that you're communicating with also has to if you have to tell
them that before you communicate Etc, just like know how these
things work. And let's all start to build
tools that help each other understand this stuff.
I think there's a huge energy barrier because people just feel
generally intimidated and then they don't make it easy, right?
We know this from right other experiments with trying to get
informed consent for cookies on websites how obnoxious?
Make it for us to try to engage with an understanding about what
they're doing with our data. And I think that that's probably
intentional because there's not an incentive for them, to make
us more educated about what is happening and why these tools
are all giving given to us for free, you know.
And this is a common saying that many other people have said
before me, if it's free, you are the product.
And we have to understand that as technology tools expand from
just being about collecting our data to use an Heisman so that
Target things back to us. There are entire cities that are
investing in infrastructures to create data extraction tools,
whether they're Bluetooth beacons or other types of data
collection devices. It's being referred to as smart
cities, right? But what we know about the ways
that these expansions are happening is just the way that
they've taken our data to build things to advertise to us.
They're also taking our data to build things to advertise to
these cities, and taking the data from the city.
Infrastructures and using, Not to sell other cities things.
And so we know that there's a deep market and we know that
there is a very advanced technology but just because it's
Advanced, I don't think means it's progress.
And so I think we just need to be more engaged in how we really
want technology to help us progress and not just, you know,
serving this corporate drumbeat. They're going to need this
technology in their perfect world.
They're not thinking, 26 states only where it's going to be
illegal to get an abortion. They have a whole scope.
Hope these different right-wing groups of what they're hoping to
do. They're not going to be
satisfied to all 50 states are made this way to where it will
be illegal to even think about going to Canada or Mexico to
terminate a pregnancy. That's right.
They're going to figure out some way if they get the seats that
they need in Congress in the Senate.
So we can't mail a morning-after pill or anything out to each
other. Yes, you can't deliver it across
state lines to a friend, a family member.
So if you're wondering like, why are we focused on the
surveillance day? It's that they That doesn't want
to let women have control over their own lives, and bodies.
They are going to work very hard and, you know, they work hard,
they work harder than we do. And that's just I felt this way
for a long time that they they are Relentless.
They're Relentless and they are going to look for ways and find
ways. So that any Corner, we think
we're going to cut in order to have our freedom and our going
to have to worry about putting up the wall on the Mexican
border. They're going to put up legal
walls that will Have them arresting anybody who is trying
to get away and believed in something different other than a
fertilized egg has a human being and they've already said I've
seen them on TV. There's so emboldened this week.
Cynthia, yes, up. Next in the batter's box.
Is same-sex marriage? Yes, they have a long laundry
list. Yes.
And I think what you're saying is we all need to get wise and
get smart learn about these things that we need to do to
figure out how to protect our privacy and how to have our Come
in right about now. Somebody saying well, why aren't
you talking about the November election?
So I don't know if you want to get into that.
But it seems like if we had better senators and if we had a
protected house and if our state legislators were such that, they
truly represented what the American people want.
Again, 70% of the American people do not want to get rid of
Roe v-- Wade, only, 27 percent do so, what about electoral
politics and trying to fix things?
Things that way I actually want to bring it back to what you
said about just visioning because I think what we have the
opportunity to do and going back to that moment and handmaid's
tale, where Elisabeth Moss is staring at the newspapers on the
wall and she's going back in time out of the fantasy future.
That had been created and she's realizing, this is the moment
and this is a moment, I should have focused my mind and tried
to intervene and I think that focusing on our Asians and
getting really open to the idea of thinking about how we can
create really clear, strong solid protections for our bodily
and digital autonomy that don't rely on having the right
constellation of justices, Etc. I think that, yes, we need to do
a huge amount of work to prevent these protections from falling
to the Wayside, but we also at the same time that we're
thinking about these protections for now, we also have to think
about Out. How do we really ground these
protections into? What we want to see going
forward in a way that it doesn't oscillate so drastically based
on who is in power, right? Otherwise it's just going to be
swinging back and forth. We need to get to a place where
if seventy percent of the American public wants it this
way. Then that's the way it's going
to be and those newspapers that she's looking on the wall, the
old newspapers, or she's looking back at the beginning before
people realized it was too late to stop this.
Sort of religious fascist from taking over the country.
One of those articles that she's looking at is I mean y-you look
at it now. This episode was, you know, four
years ago but there is a back in the in the cannon the fictional
story of hameed's to. There's a January 6th attack on
Congress. I didn't realize that now where
they go in and she refers in her we're listening to her thoughts
basically in her head the her words were when they slaughtered
Yes, that should have been the moment that we just all had to
take our country back from these people.
And but we didn't and it's essentially the that piece that
she refers to in the history of the story is unlike January 6th
2021 where they didn't succeed. They were armed, right?
We have to sit in our own fantasy, Futures.
And not just dwell in, there is correct.
Yes, that is correct. And really start to finding with
specificity what that looks like.
What are the protections and that future fantasy?
That we create. We co-create and its power with
and not power over. What's yours?
I mean, when you think of the possibility of the future in the
sort of dark place, it could go, we're not paranoid people, but
we also know the reality of things.
I'm just curious, just if you don't mind me asking you, the
thing that keeps you awake at night where you wonder or worry
and and you say to yourself and what will I do if we get to this
point because they are not going to stop with this one ruling?
Yeah I mean, look at the Green Wave, we can be really excited
and energized by it. We can really look at, you know,
what has been happening in countries like Ireland in,
Mexico, and Argentina, and get inspiration from that.
That and learn from them. Learn how they did their
messaging and learn how they built power troubled times.
Focus the mind. We have to let our minds be
focused and we have to let them sort of be integrated together.
And I think what we've been doing for many years now and
trying to have a deeper understanding of how the
iterations of harm that are caused, are all sort of separate
different iterations. They all look different
depending on what historically oppressed Community, you're in,
it's important to Stand the intersections, and all of the
different ways that those harms make people suffer so that we
can know how to better protect everybody and not leave anybody
behind. We can really ground what we
want to do in those types of values in those types of
principles. And we can also take what we
know about what we need to in addition to protecting also
focus on the common cause of all those harms because there are
some common causes we're very busy taking care.
Care of all the harm, right? We're all doing a huge amount of
Oppression Management in our communities were all
experiencing it and it looks different for everyone and it's
really important to have good vocabulary and have these
sometimes tedious debates about the language and about how we're
thinking about these things. It is something that is usually
teased but I think it's a really important process to get this
stuff right because we want to show each other that we care
about each other and we care about how our language impacts
them. It's a really good healthy sign.
Of someone who is not anti-social, it's a very healthy
and natural sign. And we have to start embracing
this idea that we are naturally driven as animals and creatures
of this Earth. We are naturally driven to take
care of each other more so than any survival of the fittest
nonsense and that our drive to collectively care for our
communities. And for our animals, and our
plants, and our elements, and make sure that this place is
still here. So that When all of our
descendants are trying to live their lives, they can still have
happy focused and successful lives and that the the
conditions are conducive to life as Janine.
Benyus says she's a biologist who did a fantastic has an
amazing website. Ask nature dot org.
That helps Engineers understand how to innovate and inspiration
with nature. It's awesome.
But I think that like we have to start thinking in those terms of
what the common threads are and that's a beautiful opportunity
and moment for solidarity across Learning and really getting
together at the same time that we're able to protect our
community, but our plates are really full, right?
We're really having a hard time holding everything and it's a
huge thing to ask a community to vision for the future, when
it's, like, just day by day. I'm really inspired listening to
your description of this and what we need to do.
It doesn't seem impossible to me.
It doesn't seem like All Is Lost.
Now, I keep reminding people. There's more of us than there
are of them. Do not Spare here, we still live
in a democracy. There are things we can do and
the things that you're suggesting here are so powerful.
It is a natural thing to want to have each other's back and to
understand that we're all in this together.
Yes. And then we're either going to
sink or we're going to swim and I think most of us don't want to
sink. I'm, I guess I'm urging a sense
of urgency that this isn't something we're going to think
about for five or six years. This is something we need to
think about for five or six minutes.
And when Cynthia said, Green Wave, she wasn't talking about
the green New Deal. Look it up.
But other countries have figured out how to, how to fight back.
Yes. How to push back against this
sort of right-wing, Insanity against hatred, but it requires
true. Action, right?
Recognition of as, you know, Tech not, huh?
Would say of interbeing of seeing the interbeing of each
other in each other, and bringing that, to be the value
around, which we do everything else and having that, that
unification be not just a destination but it's the
journey. You mentioned this Vietnamese
philosopher I believe he passed away this past year, didn't in
January. Wow, I mean years ago I read his
books and do you have A favorite, I'll put a link on my
site here, call me by my trolley by my true name.
Absolutely. And of course, his conversation
with the berrigan's. That's right.
I completely forgot that the raft is not the shore.
The raft is not the shore. Well, thank you for reminding me
of that somewhere. During the covid, fog, much
information left, my brain. But for those of you listening,
Cynthia's refer to a number of things here, and we'll put up a
few links for you to learn these things because we do have to
educate ourselves because we can't go in Fight ignorant or in
the dark, or in despair, certainly not in despair.
Share your purpose with joy. It is something that we can sing
about and dance about an art about and reflect to each other
what we are experiencing together and affirm that and
affirm the feelings and affirm the grief and affirm the relief
and like really celebrate all of the evidence that we already are
sitting on and have that, we are committed to protecting each
other and protecting the future of the surface.
We are already doing that together and we can do that and
we can do it better. Sure.
But we have a lot of reason to celebrate and believe that we
already are doing it and look we're celebrating Mother's this
weekend and that's a beautiful thing.
That's right but at the same time that we're celebrating
Mother's, the shadow of that is forced motherhood and we want to
be able to continue to worship motherhood and everything that
we celebrate when we do that without creating the the types
of generational trauma. Would really be generated if
forced motherhood became what most people in this country had
to experience, right? Absolutely.
And I would also guess that many people who are in the particular
circumstances of being an extra set of hands in the village that
are not able to have their own children, right?
But are willing to help that those people would not want to
have a child or baby, that was just going I'm through the type
of trauma through for separation with their mother and their
mothers for a separation with them right in this, what we'll
all. Just call an interim phase, this
transitional phase till we get the power.
This country in the hands of the majority who are against the
Supreme Court decision, you're going to hear in your local
communities about different groups that are forming, what
some are calling. And I've called an aboveground
railroad where we need to help women and girls who need help,
whether it's to get to another state.
It's something within the state, whether it's going to Canada or
Mexico, in the meantime in this is not the long-term plan, we
can't settle for this, we have to make the law and the laws of
this land such that you have a right to a legal medical
procedure. But in the meantime, you
probably know of some of these groups, right?
Cynthia that are getting set up now to help women, whether it's
getting to clinics in other states, whether it's getting
access to the abortion pill or the Plan B pill, yes, they are
on the front lines are on the front lines of this right now
because cuz literally within what 1224 hours of the Supreme
Court, the official decision it is in these twenty six states
were most of them immediate immediate ban immediately a
felony immediately illegal. Yes, not have any time to think
about it? Everybody should have them a
little bottle or something of the pills because you may not be
able just to walk into the CBS the next morning and get that
pill. That's right.
Yeah, it's going to create criminalized economies, and
criminalized. Enemies bring surveillance and
criminalized. Economies also means that the
people who are already under the crosshairs of any type of State
Control, whether it's through a Child Protection Agency and the
case workers are social workers or whether it's through the
increased Collision frequency between police and black people,
where there is just a denser amount of police in that area.
And therefore, more collisions that are aggressively happening
because all of the officers have To do their productivity goals,
right? And so, the more productivity
goals driven officers that you have in an area.
The more you're going to just have people that are
increasingly having these interactions.
If you look at global data in New York City, you'll see that
there's on the Civilian Complaint review board.
They have a category of an abuse.
That is the wrongful taking of someone cell phone or the
wrongful interfering with the use of the cell phone.
And what that tells you is that police are not Just stopping
people and going in their pockets and looking and their
bags are also looking for their phones and trying to
increasingly get access to the information that's in the phone.
And sometimes they're even picking up a young kid.
And they're saying, you know what?
Like you littered in the hallway of a public housing project,
right? And then taking that child into
custody under the pretense of having done something that was a
violation of the housing rules and then in that interaction,
with that young person, while detained saying hey, Let me see
your phone. Let me see.
Your phone and see who's in your social network.
Who are you? Facebook friends with show me
this? Show me that the people who are
going to suffer the most from these increasingly criminalized,
economies are going to be the black people and the other
people of color and pregnant, people who are historically,
oppressed and already in the crosshairs of law enforcement.
It's right or some other type of State Control, Dorothy Roberts
described, the state agency, such as a child, protective
wealth Our systems Etc. As the benevolent Terror, you
know, other aspects of the human welfare system that introduced a
huge amount of surveillance into someone's life.
If you have a case worker for getting State assistance, for
example, and Virginia Eubanks book automating and equality is
a fantastic resource to learn about those when the state has
you in their safety, net. There's a lot of opportunities.
They create for surveilling, what you buy, where you go, who
you're in touch with, who's your contact.
Tax excetera just because the caseworker hasn't busted down
your door or the case worker doesn't have a gun on them,
don't let your guard down. That's right.
And the work of Khadija abdelrahman and that space is
also been really phenomenal and and she's articulated that space
well along with a lot of other people.
So we just have a few seconds left.
I'm going to just give that time to you any final things you'd
like to bring up, say encourage people.
You think you've been very wonderful.
What you've said about, not letting despair Run your life
here at this moment, because we all need to pick ourselves up.
Pick each other up and I'm word. So, I'll leave the last word to
you. Yeah.
I mean celebrate, whatever source of inspiration.
Gets you going and makes you have energy to get together and
try to learn together and realize how to protect each
other now but also how to reorganize how our society, our
country, maybe even our world to better protect people now into
the future. ER, absolutely.
It's been a real pleasure talking to you.
I'm honored that you gave of your that we're recording this
on a Saturday night. And mom is here.
Yes, yes, happy Mother's Day to all mothers out there to those
whose mothers have left us, keep living the life that that, you
know, that yes, to the ancient grandmother, yes.
To all of them who came before us and especially the women did
not have it easy. It needs to be said.
And yet, I'll know it and thankfully they existed in now
we exist. Yes, our daughters, our nieces
our granddaughters, we have no option other than to stand up
and do what's right and do it now.
Yeah, and that the outpouring of protest that we've seen this
week, really shines back to us, reflects back to us, that we
have support in our community that we are keeping each other
safe that were committed to keeping each other safe.
And that our democracy and our devices should really do the
same. Absolutely.
Thank you very much. Cynthia County cook for being my
guest here on Rumble will stay in touch you let us know
anything. We need to put out there to our
audience. We will do that.
And to all of you out there, go online, look for ways to get
involved, talk to people. Everybody's talking about this,
this week, there's no issue. I've received more mail on since
this podcast started, then this issue this week.
Wow, we've got our work. Cut out for For us.
But I'm I'm a big believer in our ability to succeed.
So, yeah, it's in our mitochondrial to open up
correctly, pay attention. I have real hope.
I'm not alone in this, right? No.
No, we have hope and we have, it's a good practice to catalog
as many things in your day as like, make it that much lighter
and that much happier, and, and focus on those at the same time
that we're also holding a lot of really heavy suffering and
witnessing a lot of suffering, but we can look at the suffering
and we can witness it and we can figure out and help each other
and to great our traumas together, so that we can heal.
And I think that there is an salute reason to be really
hopeful at this moment. And, you know, if we can find
that moment, if we can find the moment inside of the newspaper
clippings where we can send, you know, be receptive to messages
from our self from their fantasy future, that says, don't go here
and we can start to really focus on where we do want to go and
decide what our own fantasy future.
Looks like and start doing the work to build into that and I
think it's absolutely a moment that we have Decision that were
all perfectly you know driven to and capable of making a
together. Yeah, we can do this.
Yeah, right on. Absolutely well and that wraps
it up for us here today, but it does not wrap it up in terms of
how we're going to stay on this. Make your voice heard.
Now, if you hear of demonstrations locally, go to
it, go to protest, get out in the street, let the Supreme
Court know what they're going to be facing when they go against
70% of this country. Thanks very much to Cynthia for
coming on my podcast and to all of you for listening today.
Please share this with others so that we all get involved.
Please read my sub stacked column at Michael more.com about
this and we'll be back again. Sometime this week with more on
this and other issues. This is Rumble with Michael
Moore. I'm Michael Moore, my thanks to
our producer and editor, angel of Argos and everybody else
who's helped me out here. The showing greatly All of that
help in all of you who listen to it will talk to you soon.
Thanks there's work ahead. Marty Journal, Bella, Ciao,
Bella ciao, ciao, ciao, ciao. A teacher know what the term, e,
sinto d, mu d. He say you're more your Journal.
That's when Montagne software Alone died, you will feel it.
Crystal field of vision. Ciao, ciao, ciao, ciao.
We're still your belt but these are no more talk.