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Old Pirates. 
Yes, they rob. 

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I sold. 
I to the merchant ship. 

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Minutes after they took, I from 
the bottomless pit but my hand 

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was made Strong by the hands. 
This is Rumble with Michael 

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Moore and I am nickel War. 
Welcome everyone to episode 200 

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of Rumble 200 episodes. 
In this year and a half. 

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Wow, I've had one of the best 
years and a half of my life and 

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it was awful. 
Obviously in so many ways 

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because of the pandemic because 
I was in my own walk down here 

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just to protect myself and 
others. 

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But the fact that I got to have 
this time with all of you and 

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now in episode 200, we speak 
again. 

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I feel very blessed and, and 
very grateful that so many of 

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you and now we've crossed the 28
million. 

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Mark of downloads, 28 million 
downloads of Rumble, by all of 

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you. 
Thank you for that. 

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Thank you for sharing this. 
This podcast with others today, 

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we are going to hear from a 
thoughtful and forceful author, 

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thinker and activist by the name
of Desmond, Cole. 

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He and I are going to discuss Us
policing prisons and how we must

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deconstruct these institutions 
and rethink our priorities, not 

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only our priorities, but our 
values and where we actually put

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our public money in episode 194 
of Rumble. 

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I shared my idea with all of you
for the creation of the 

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Department of Public, Safety, 
and compassion as an alternative

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to what we now know, as the 
police and in episode 1, 97. 

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I then described my idea for the
Department of restorative 

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justice and Redemption, I spoke 
with scholar damn burger and he 

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and I put forth to you an idea 
for an alternative to 

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incarceration. 
Prisons. 

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These are two ideas. 
I care very deeply about. 

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And as I announced on these 
episodes in the past month, this

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is going to be a focus of mine 
here this year that we deal with

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this problem that we not just 
hold an annual anniversary, 

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remembering the murder of George
Floyd but that we all do 

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something about this. 
We have to do this. 

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And so I'm going to keep talking
about this and today I'm going 

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to explore the intellectual 
underpinnings of both police and

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prison. 
Abolition, with Desmond goal. 

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Do not be afraid my friends. 
A lot of people do not want us 

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talking about this, and I am 
talking about a lot of so-called

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liberals Or democrats who are 
afraid that. 

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If we discuss this issue, we 
will somehow scare away our 

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fellow Americans into the loving
arms of the Republican party. 

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That is not our problem. 
Our problem is if we do nothing 

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about this, so, once again, 
today in my third episode, in my

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endeavor, To have us, not turn 
away from this, but to face it. 

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Head-on, I invite you to join me
in what I think is going to be a

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00:04:05,100 --> 00:04:09,500
very important discussion before
we get started. 

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I want to do a couple of shout 
outs here to my Underwriters for

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00:04:14,300 --> 00:04:19,200
today, for supporting me and my 
voice and supporting our right 

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00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,500
yours and mine to talk about 
this difficult issue. 

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I'm so grateful to them and 
start. 

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In off, with our first one, here
are great, new underwriter 

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liquid IV this company. 
They're all about, you know, 

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good health. 
And and that's why I'm so 

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grateful until liquid IV for not
only supporting me, but also 

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what they do in terms of 
providing a service to improve 

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our health to improve some of 
the basic things that we all 

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need to do every day especially 
in these hot days to be to 

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hydrate ourselves. 
And look what I've he's come up 

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with a way for us to actually do
that. 

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Remember to do that and to do it
with something that actually 

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tastes really great like not 
medicine. 

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They have so many flavors of 
this. 

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It what it is. 
It's a powder. 

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You just put it in your in your 
water bottle and Shake It Up. 

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You know these great flavors 
like lemon lime and Berry and 

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watermelon and all this. 
You just shake it up and when 

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you drink if you drink 16 oz of 
water would look what IV in it. 

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You get two to three times 
faster. 

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A hydration going through your 
body? 

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00:05:34,500 --> 00:05:36,300
The other good thing about this 
is, you know, I used to like 

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00:05:36,300 --> 00:05:39,300
drink Gatorade and things like 
that, but then so sugary. 

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00:05:39,300 --> 00:05:42,000
And it's so it's got artificial 
flavors and all that. 

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Not this, this is no artificial 
flavors, all natural, and has 

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00:05:46,900 --> 00:05:51,000
less sugar in it than an Apple. 
So, I thank them for being part 

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of what I'm trying to do and I 
thank them for doing good for 

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the world. 
Not only do they No, provide 

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this service for you. 
And I this company liquid IV has

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donated four million servings of
liquid IV in response to 

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covid-19. 
And they've donated to 

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hospitals, to First Responders 
food banks. 

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They don't have to do that, and 
they do it. 

85
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In fact, it's not just the four 
million servings. 

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They've donated here in the US 
to covid relief. 

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There's like another 11 million 
servings that they've, that 

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they've given away globally. 
And Only in areas where disaster

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has struck. 
There is not enough water and 

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people are dying of thirst 
literally. 

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They've also have a deal for all
of you who are listening to 

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You can get 25% off when you go 

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checkout 25% off, anything that 
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hydration for you for the planet
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don't get it online, you can At 
Costco there you know another 

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source of goodness there and you
can get a bulk there so please 

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support them. 
I thank them. 

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00:07:04,100 --> 00:07:07,300
Thank you, liquid IV for 
supporting Rumble with Michael 

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00:07:07,300 --> 00:07:09,900
Moore. 
Hey and I also want to thank our

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00:07:09,900 --> 00:07:13,700
other underwriter for today's 
episode long time. 

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Underwriter expressvpn, thank 
you for supporting my podcast 

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and supporting our right to 
privacy when we're online. 

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This is the great thing why we 
were so happy when RSVP, n 

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wanted to back Rumble for those 
of you don't know what 

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expressvpn is, let me just lay 
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Very simply, you may think that,
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browsing in incognito mode when 
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protected, but have you ever 
read the fine print that 

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appears? 
When you start browsing 

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Incognito you know the fine 
print terms terms and services. 

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Well you should read it sometime
because it says that your 

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activity Might still be visible 
to your employer to your school 

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to your internet service 
provider, even when you think 

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you're going incognito. 
So how the hell can they even 

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call it that? 
Well? 

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Anyways, if you really want to 
stop people from seeing the 

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sites that you visit and where 
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Work of secure servers, so that 

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your private online, activity 
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three extra months of this 
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Express. 
I'm going to spell it out for 

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you. 
Expression2. 

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00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:06,900
PN, expressvpn.com need to spell
that out, right? 

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No. 
Okay. 

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00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:14,800
Of course I don't expressvpn.com
/ Rumble to learn more and now 

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00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:22,400
my friends, it's time to runs 
retention song. 

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Redemption. 
My guest today is Desmond call, 

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he is an award-winning 
journalist and activist lives in

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Toronto. 
Canada Desmond, recently 

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published his first book is 
called, The Skin were in a year 

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of black resistance. 
Empower, it was the winner of 

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the 2020 Toronto, book, award, 
and a national bestseller. 

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He's just launched a new 
publication. 

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That's called, yes, everything 
And I hope I did the right 

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inflection in how this is to be 
pronounced but we're going to 

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find out what this means and you
can you can find this online and

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just type in, yes, everything. 
All right, yes, everything dot. 

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CA the movement for black lives,
black lives matter. 

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Etcetera is emerged in the 
United States over the past 

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several years. 
Desmond has watched and 

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documented it. 
While he's been confronting his 

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own systems of white supremacy 
closer to home in Canada. 

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As you know, if you've been a 
fan for a while, if you've seen 

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my movies, you've listened to 
this podcast, that an early age,

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I learned to turn to the 
Canadians, sometimes to get the 

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truth about us. 
And it's sort of like, you know,

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like, any, you know, the 
neighbor that lives that abuts 

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your backyard or lives on the 
or, you know, the people that 

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live on the other side of the 
fence, you know, a lot more 

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about them, than they realize in
part because you have to listen 

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to their arguments in the 
screaming, over the fence and 

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and everything else. 
And you also see the garbage 

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and, you know, Canada has the 
United States have been, you 

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know, if I could personify these
entities that are governmental 

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units friends. 
We've been friends for a long 

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time and I think you know, if 
you have any friends that it's 

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often only your best friends are
the ones that can tell you the 

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brutal and awful truths that you
need to hear. 

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They're the only ones that can 
just say, honestly, listen to 

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me. 
You're fucking up. 

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So I decided to ask dozen 
doesn't call here on Rumble 

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today because I have been 
talking about this since last 

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summer. 
And and now I've decided one of 

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my goals this year is to make 
the not the defunding of the 

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police that's way too limiting 
for me, I want to talk about 

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abolishing the police and 
abolishing. 

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Our criminal justice system as 
it's called, and our prisons are

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prison-industrial complex, but I
don't really know how to do this

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and I have called 911 when I've 
needed help. 

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So I say, will you do want some 
of the police their right to do 

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something if you're in trouble 
or you know? 

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I mean I've had I've had a half 
a dozen attempts on my life or 

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people with weapons trying to 
harm me. 

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Then that's I've talked about 
this as you know, it's No 

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secret. 
But I am not an expert on this. 

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I'm not a criminologist. 
I have read and listened and 

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watched Desmond speak about this
in a very profound way. 

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And I thought you would like to 
hear a perspective from our 

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neighbor and to see what we can 
learn from his thinking about 

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this. 
So welcome to rumble, Desmond 

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00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,600
Cole, thank you very much. 
Michael explain to the listeners

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where you, where you stand on 
this, because whatever, we, it 

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is that we need. 
When we say we need police, we 

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00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,700
don't need a man with a gun and 
a badge in my mind. 

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00:13:04,900 --> 00:13:08,400
We need a Department of Public 
Safety and compassion. 

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And when we say Public Safety, I
mean, we need to redefine that 

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00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:17,500
term because to me, the fact 
that we have millions of 

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00:13:17,500 --> 00:13:20,600
children that are hungry every 
day in this country, that's a 

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00:13:20,608 --> 00:13:23,000
public safety issue, as far as 
I'm concerned. 

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So, You know, I'm just going to 
turn this over to you and I'm 

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00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:31,200
just because I'd love to hear 
your take on on this particular 

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00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:35,000
issue and understanding that you
don't, you don't live here with 

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00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:39,800
this but as you say in your book
and in your writings you do live

200
00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,100
with in your in your skin as you
say. 

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00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:47,100
And that that is not just an 
American problem but I think we 

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00:13:47,100 --> 00:13:51,300
need some help right now and I'm
so afraid that now that Derek 

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00:13:51,300 --> 00:13:56,300
Chauvin is sent away to Prison 
that we're just going to move on

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00:13:56,300 --> 00:14:00,900
to the next thing and our 
attention span is gone and I 

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00:14:00,908 --> 00:14:04,800
don't want it to go away, I want
to fix this and I want you to 

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00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,700
help us. 
Well, it's nice to be with you. 

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00:14:07,700 --> 00:14:11,800
I don't know how much I can do 
in the time that we've got but 

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I'm sorry to put all this on you
but you know, it's it's okay. 

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00:14:17,700 --> 00:14:20,500
I'm going to set low 
expectations for myself as I 

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00:14:20,500 --> 00:14:23,000
often do and then if things 
turned out great and it'll be a 

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00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,100
bonus but Take Cree. 
No, very seriously. 

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00:14:26,500 --> 00:14:30,200
What we're experiencing. 
Whether it be in Canada or the 

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00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:36,700
United States is our 
relationship with our 

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00:14:36,700 --> 00:14:43,200
governments and the people who 
run them, that is based on 

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00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,600
dominance. 
I think, first and foremost, 

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00:14:47,300 --> 00:14:50,200
that people can't live in good 
relationship with each other 

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00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,700
through. 
Mutual respect, listening. 

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00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:58,400
Operation negotiation. 
That is actually not possible in

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00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:02,100
Canada or the United States. 
The only thing that's possible 

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00:15:02,100 --> 00:15:06,400
is that we dominate people who 
are not doing what we want and 

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00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:10,000
that we be allowed to dominate 
them really doing anything that 

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00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,900
we want, including taking their 
lives. 

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That's the relationship that 
government has decided is the 

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00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:21,200
appropriate one between itself 
and its people and what that 

225
00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,900
means? 
Is that you have to have police?

226
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Police are an imperative, 
because you assume that people 

227
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:34,900
are not rational that they are 
not acting in your best 

228
00:15:34,900 --> 00:15:37,700
interest. 
That they are violent, that 

229
00:15:37,700 --> 00:15:40,700
they're dangerous, and that 
that's the way of the world. 

230
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,900
So you'd be crazy not to have 
police and to protect yourself. 

231
00:15:45,500 --> 00:15:48,900
But of course, we know that the 
police are not here to Serve and

232
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Protect as they like to Brand 
themselves. 

233
00:15:51,700 --> 00:15:54,600
By the way, the police have the 
Branding of any organization may

234
00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,600
be in human history. 
You ask people what did the 

235
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,900
police do, and they say, oh, 
they Serve and Protect do they, 

236
00:16:02,500 --> 00:16:06,200
who do they serve and protect 
the police's job has always been

237
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:10,500
from the time of the enslavement
of black people in both Canada 

238
00:16:10,500 --> 00:16:15,700
and the United States. 
Their job has been to police 

239
00:16:15,700 --> 00:16:25,100
some people and, you know, move 
control surveil and dominate 

240
00:16:25,100 --> 00:16:28,700
them. 
So that the ruling class feels 

241
00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:30,500
safe and comfortable inside us 
fight. 

242
00:16:31,300 --> 00:16:36,500
That's that's just what policing
is Miriam Kaba? 

243
00:16:36,500 --> 00:16:39,100
The police abolitionists and 
prison abolitionists in the 

244
00:16:39,100 --> 00:16:43,600
United States, incredible 
activist, and writer, She says 

245
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:48,500
that she considers. 
The police to be a death making 

246
00:16:48,500 --> 00:16:52,200
institution, right? 
And she says this about prisons,

247
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,500
as well. 
If the prison is also a death 

248
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:59,700
making institution, and I think 
this is the, the ideological 

249
00:16:59,700 --> 00:17:01,800
conflict. 
Michael, is that some people 

250
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:06,900
think that the police Define 
safety and some of us know that 

251
00:17:06,900 --> 00:17:11,400
the police equals Death, 
surveillance control dominance 

252
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,400
suffering? 
You're not going to abolish the 

253
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:16,000
police. 
If you think that they Tribute 

254
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,099
to your safety, but being a 
black person. 

255
00:17:19,099 --> 00:17:21,700
I don't have to worry about that
because I've had a lifetime of 

256
00:17:21,900 --> 00:17:24,300
understanding that the police 
don't contribute to my safety. 

257
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,500
So for me, this is not some kind
of really big intellectual 

258
00:17:28,500 --> 00:17:33,300
exercise. 
I have to live it and so do all 

259
00:17:33,300 --> 00:17:35,200
the black people in the United 
States of America. 

260
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,900
But we should also talk about 
the policing and extermination 

261
00:17:39,900 --> 00:17:43,300
of indigenous peoples in this 
part of the world, which again, 

262
00:17:43,900 --> 00:17:47,500
that was policing. 
For the benefit of the elite and

263
00:17:47,500 --> 00:17:52,300
the ruling class at the expense 
of the First Peoples of these 

264
00:17:52,300 --> 00:17:55,200
lands who were here for 
Millennia before we were. 

265
00:17:56,500 --> 00:18:02,400
So a policing is always tilted 
and liberals fail because 

266
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,600
liberals want to say, well let's
just make it equal. 

267
00:18:04,700 --> 00:18:07,500
Let's have a fantasy. 
Where the police aren't really 

268
00:18:07,500 --> 00:18:09,700
here to dominate. 
They're here to help. 

269
00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:14,000
So we'll train them not to kill 
people and we'll give them 

270
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,800
weapons that don't kill you. 
The minute that they shoot you 

271
00:18:17,100 --> 00:18:20,700
and we'll put body cameras on 
them so that if they kill you we

272
00:18:20,700 --> 00:18:22,800
can watch. 
And after you're dead decide, 

273
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,700
whether it was fair or not. 
And none of these things are 

274
00:18:25,700 --> 00:18:27,400
really intended to change 
policing. 

275
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,400
And of course, they don't work, 
but they're not meant to work. 

276
00:18:30,500 --> 00:18:34,300
So if you agree with Miriam 
Kaaba, that police is a death 

277
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:39,000
making institution, you would 
want to abolish it, but it is 

278
00:18:39,700 --> 00:18:42,900
the fight. 
To Define and understand 

279
00:18:42,900 --> 00:18:46,100
policing is such that I think 
we're on right now. 

280
00:18:46,300 --> 00:18:50,700
The fight to take away all that 
branding of Serve and Protect 

281
00:18:50,700 --> 00:18:53,300
and expose, what the police are 
really doing in our communities.

282
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,300
And what is that? 
What is the, what is it? 

283
00:18:56,300 --> 00:18:59,700
When we, when she says? 
And when you say, when you talk 

284
00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:03,700
about abolishing the police, 
what do you, what do you mean by

285
00:19:03,700 --> 00:19:05,900
that? 
And I guess I'm asking you to 

286
00:19:05,900 --> 00:19:10,000
address white people that are 
listening to this. 

287
00:19:10,300 --> 00:19:14,600
And maybe some like people live 
in neighborhoods that have what 

288
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:19,400
we call high crime. 
But I think that the lens here 

289
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,700
is always the white lens that 
were forced to kind of look at 

290
00:19:22,700 --> 00:19:26,300
it through this white lens. 
So for the people listening to 

291
00:19:26,300 --> 00:19:29,800
this and they hear, wow, they've
these two guys are just skipped 

292
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,000
over defunding the police to 
abolishing. 

293
00:19:33,500 --> 00:19:37,300
What does this really mean? 
Because because I've read, you 

294
00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:41,000
know, what you've written and 
you have a such an Advanced and 

295
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,300
Progressive way of thinking 
about how we could live in a 

296
00:19:45,300 --> 00:19:51,500
better world. 
How we could be a Kinder and 

297
00:19:51,500 --> 00:19:56,300
more compassionate people. 
If if we rethought this, I 

298
00:19:56,300 --> 00:20:02,200
think, first of all, You only 
want to completely get rid of 

299
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,900
something if you would agree 
that it is harmful. 

300
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,100
So that's the point that I'm 
trying to start from when I say,

301
00:20:09,100 --> 00:20:11,400
is this really a death making 
institution? 

302
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,100
Or is it a neutral institution 
that could go either way and we 

303
00:20:15,100 --> 00:20:16,900
should have an endless debate 
about it. 

304
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,900
The police kill a lot of people 
but that's not really the 

305
00:20:22,900 --> 00:20:26,100
argument for abolishing the 
police, the argument for 

306
00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:28,300
abolishing the police. 
Nice. 

307
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:34,600
Is that it isn't right for some 
human beings in our society to 

308
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,200
be able to have a legal right to
dominate surveil. 

309
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:45,100
Controlled detain assault and 
kill other people that actually 

310
00:20:45,100 --> 00:20:49,300
giving other people other human 
beings the right to do. 

311
00:20:49,300 --> 00:20:53,000
That is itself wrong. 
And I'm interested because I see

312
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,300
that in the United States, one 
of the only countries in the 

313
00:20:56,300 --> 00:21:01,600
world that It's still executing 
so many people, the way that it 

314
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,000
does that that is starting to 
fall out of favor in America. 

315
00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:07,700
And I think it's the same 
principle is that you shouldn't 

316
00:21:07,700 --> 00:21:11,900
have the right to take somebody 
else's life and when people do 

317
00:21:11,900 --> 00:21:15,600
take life in our communities, 
where were appalled, right? 

318
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:20,100
We are outraged, we don't think 
it's right then we create a 

319
00:21:20,100 --> 00:21:23,700
whole system that does the exact
same thing as a punishment for 

320
00:21:23,700 --> 00:21:26,000
taking life. 
So it's like how much do we 

321
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,200
really believe that? 
But I I see how people are 

322
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:35,100
trying to eliminate abolish 
capital punishment because they 

323
00:21:35,100 --> 00:21:39,000
have decided that under no 
circumstances. 

324
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,700
Should anyone have that power 
over another human being? 

325
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,000
That's what we're talking about 
when we talk about abolishing 

326
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,100
the police, because the police 
don't have to kill you to 

327
00:21:49,100 --> 00:21:51,500
dominate you. 
They don't have to take your 

328
00:21:51,500 --> 00:21:55,400
life in order to make your life 
hell and make you live in 

329
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,800
constant, fear control. 
The things that you do without 

330
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,100
laying a hand on you because 
they have the ability to harm 

331
00:22:03,100 --> 00:22:07,400
you and get away with it in law.
It's that that we're trying to 

332
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,000
address. 
I think we have to start there. 

333
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:13,700
And again, if you think that 
there are circumstances where a 

334
00:22:13,700 --> 00:22:16,400
person needs to be able to 
dominate another person, to the 

335
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,700
extent of taking their life, you
are not ready for the abolition 

336
00:22:19,700 --> 00:22:22,000
conversation. 
Right. 

337
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:29,100
But it starts from a place of 
wanting Human Relationships that

338
00:22:29,100 --> 00:22:33,900
aren't based on dominance. 
Well, we always get the 

339
00:22:33,900 --> 00:22:36,900
question. 
What about the murderers? 

340
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,500
What about the rapists? 
What about the serial killers? 

341
00:22:41,100 --> 00:22:44,800
And I think the appropriate 
answer is, many of them are 

342
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,500
police. 
The problem with a police serial

343
00:22:47,500 --> 00:22:50,100
killer or murderer or rapist 
though, is that they're never 

344
00:22:50,100 --> 00:22:53,600
going to be held accountable. 
By the society ever because 

345
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,100
that's the nature of policing 
because if the guys who have the

346
00:22:57,100 --> 00:23:01,000
ultimate authority over the rest
of us can be treated just like 

347
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,100
us well they're not really the 
police anymore now are they if 

348
00:23:04,100 --> 00:23:11,000
police can be fired the minute, 
they abuse their Authority and 

349
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,900
they're not really the police 
anymore and that's exactly what 

350
00:23:13,900 --> 00:23:18,600
I want but that's exactly what 
makes so many people afraid is 

351
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,200
like you know you have to be 
able to have that. 

352
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,300
Hammer in order to protect 
yourself, but that's the 

353
00:23:25,300 --> 00:23:28,900
mentality of the slave master, 
who's always paranoid that the 

354
00:23:28,900 --> 00:23:32,000
slaves are going to revolt. 
That is where this mentality of 

355
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,500
policing comes from. 
That's the mentality of the 

356
00:23:35,500 --> 00:23:37,500
settlor. 
Who wants to clear indigenous 

357
00:23:37,500 --> 00:23:42,300
peoples off of their land 
without consequence and take 

358
00:23:42,300 --> 00:23:46,900
over that land. 
Paranoia fear and in need to 

359
00:23:46,900 --> 00:23:50,900
dominate. 
So I think we have to start 

360
00:23:50,900 --> 00:23:54,700
there. 
In our thinking and as far as 

361
00:23:55,300 --> 00:23:59,100
well, what would we do? 
Otherwise, This is not a mystery

362
00:23:59,100 --> 00:24:02,300
the way that people want to 
pretend that it is because every

363
00:24:02,300 --> 00:24:06,600
single day in this world, we 
actually figure out ways to have

364
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,300
a relationship with each other 
that don't involve killing each 

365
00:24:09,300 --> 00:24:13,400
other and even when people are 
violent or out of line or 

366
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:17,300
harmful, we figure out ways to 
deal with it, that are not 

367
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:24,800
dominance killing surveillance. 
So the model that everybody is 

368
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,800
looking for, imagining has to 
replace, the police is not 

369
00:24:29,100 --> 00:24:32,800
really. 
As complicated I would say is 

370
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:37,000
people want to make it out to be
most of the policing activity 

371
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,800
just needs to stop. 
It doesn't need to be replaced 

372
00:24:40,300 --> 00:24:44,800
with something if if on your 
walk to work every day, there's 

373
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,800
a man who has the legal 
authority to punch you in the 

374
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,000
face. 
And after a while, you're like 

375
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,800
men, you know what that 
government employee, who punches

376
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,700
me in my face every day, we 
should really do something about

377
00:24:56,700 --> 00:24:57,700
him. 
What would you think? 

378
00:24:57,700 --> 00:24:59,700
If somebody who's like, well, 
what do we replace them with 

379
00:24:59,700 --> 00:25:02,200
though? 
You don't know what your need to

380
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,100
replace that person. 
They just, they're extra, they 

381
00:25:05,100 --> 00:25:08,600
are unnecessary. 
They're harmful. 

382
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:10,500
And they don't need to be 
replaced by anything. 

383
00:25:10,500 --> 00:25:12,800
And that's what we say about the
vast majority of policing 

384
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,600
activity. 
It doesn't need to be replaced 

385
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,500
by anything. 
Having a person with a gun, go 

386
00:25:17,500 --> 00:25:21,300
to a noise, complaint in a 
community is foolish and 

387
00:25:21,300 --> 00:25:24,500
dangerous, and it doesn't need 
to be replaced by anything. 

388
00:25:26,300 --> 00:25:29,300
However, I would argue that if 
you want to, for example, 

389
00:25:29,300 --> 00:25:32,300
respond to somebody in mental 
health, Rice's you don't send 

390
00:25:32,300 --> 00:25:33,800
the police. 
You don't send somebody with a 

391
00:25:33,808 --> 00:25:38,800
gun and a taser and pepper. 
Spray, you you send somebody 

392
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,900
else and we're not replacing. 
We're actually like shifting 

393
00:25:42,900 --> 00:25:45,500
focus of the response because 
they're the police. 

394
00:25:45,500 --> 00:25:48,700
Only do one thing. 
They enforce the law and uses 

395
00:25:48,700 --> 00:25:53,200
much dominating ability as they 
have to enforce the law or to 

396
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:57,000
enforce whatever, they believe 
to be the law because just like 

397
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,100
the Judge Dredd movie. 
The police kind of really are 

398
00:25:59,100 --> 00:26:01,900
the law once they get involved 
in a situation, They do whatever

399
00:26:01,900 --> 00:26:05,200
they want. 
And so we're not really trying 

400
00:26:05,300 --> 00:26:09,900
to replace that completely 
over-the-top power for things, 

401
00:26:09,900 --> 00:26:11,900
like kids, having a tantrum in 
school. 

402
00:26:11,900 --> 00:26:15,200
Oh my God, if we can't call the 
police who we call deal with it 

403
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,800
differently, have a different 
mentality about what's needed in

404
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:20,600
that circumstance and move from 
there. 

405
00:26:20,900 --> 00:26:23,400
And then not that. 
I'm a have a problem with 

406
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,800
defunding because defunding is 
fine. 

407
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,200
As long as it's a mechanism 
towards abolition. 

408
00:26:30,100 --> 00:26:34,200
Take the funding away from the 
guys who solve every problem 

409
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:39,000
showing up with weapons and 
dominance and invest in health, 

410
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:43,500
invest in education, invest in 
trauma, therapy and counseling. 

411
00:26:43,500 --> 00:26:47,000
For all the people who have been
harmed by the police invest in 

412
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,000
housing. 
What keeps people in a society 

413
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:55,300
safe housing or men with guns 
Healthcare or men with guns? 

414
00:26:55,700 --> 00:26:58,600
It's not even a question, but 
when you live in a white 

415
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,600
settlers paranoid, Petit Canada 
or the United States. 

416
00:27:03,300 --> 00:27:05,400
This is the fight. 
This is what we're fighting back

417
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:10,200
against and we're to prisons 
fall into this in terms of the 

418
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:14,300
Abolitionist Movement here 
because it seems to be, you 

419
00:27:14,300 --> 00:27:21,400
know, the policing is the first 
link in this chain. 

420
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:27,800
But then they need these large 
buildings with bars on them to 

421
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,900
send these people too. 
And to create this false sense 

422
00:27:31,900 --> 00:27:36,100
of security that now that 
they've been removed, you're 

423
00:27:36,100 --> 00:27:39,600
protected even though there's so
many other ways you're not, 

424
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,200
you're not protected in their, 
our day-to-day lives, have 

425
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,200
nothing to do with crime on the 
streets, it has to do with, you 

426
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,800
know, covid appears and you lose
your job and suddenly and United

427
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,300
States, you have no health care.
So just like that. 

428
00:27:53,700 --> 00:27:58,000
Well, I believe that holding 
people in any form of captivity 

429
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,300
is always about, How you benefit
from that. 

430
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,500
So black people have been in 
captivity for some form or 

431
00:28:04,500 --> 00:28:07,000
another on these territories for
hundreds of years. 

432
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:08,600
And it's not because we're 
dangerous. 

433
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,200
It's because somebody profits 
from us being in captivity. 

434
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:16,200
So there are people in the 
United States and Canada who 

435
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,400
have been doing things like 
sewing masks during covid. 

436
00:28:21,300 --> 00:28:23,900
And what do you have to pay a 
prisoner to so masks all day? 

437
00:28:23,900 --> 00:28:25,200
Do you have to pay them 
anything? 

438
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:27,600
You don't know the many thing 
you can pay them. 

439
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,500
A nominal fee. 
You can probably get away with 

440
00:28:30,500 --> 00:28:32,400
not doing it though, because 
who's going to fight for 

441
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,400
prisoners? 
If you say, I'll pay you and 

442
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,500
then don't do it. 
So, we've had prisoners in 

443
00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:42,600
Canada and the United States 
doing things like making PPE or 

444
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,800
the public while they sit in a 
jail cell. 

445
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,400
And I don't know about different
regions of the United States. 

446
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:54,500
But I can tell you here in 
Ontario, I'll shocking amount of

447
00:28:54,500 --> 00:28:57,000
the people who are in jail or on
remand. 

448
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,500
Meaning they haven't actually 
been convicted of anything, so 

449
00:29:00,500 --> 00:29:02,900
they are awaiting trial. 
Yeah, we don't have that word 

450
00:29:02,900 --> 00:29:03,900
here. 
What it, what is it? 

451
00:29:03,900 --> 00:29:07,700
What is re-manned mean, reman 
means that you have been charged

452
00:29:07,700 --> 00:29:10,700
but you haven't been convicted. 
You haven't had your day in 

453
00:29:10,700 --> 00:29:14,300
court as they say and so, but 
you're still you're held Behind 

454
00:29:14,300 --> 00:29:16,000
Bars. 
You're imprisoned even though 

455
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:17,700
you're still an innocent person.
Yeah. 

456
00:29:17,700 --> 00:29:21,000
Technically I mean innocence is 
that's why we have to challenge 

457
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,300
the whole concept of Innocence 
because how can you be innocent 

458
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,000
Sitting in a jail cell, right? 
Right, exactly. 

459
00:29:26,100 --> 00:29:31,500
But um yeah in those 
circumstances you haven't had an

460
00:29:31,500 --> 00:29:34,800
opportunity under the law to 
have your case tried, but you're

461
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,600
in jail. 
And when we see right now, 

462
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,200
Michael is like things like 
covid-19. 

463
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:48,900
Finds a home in a jail because a
jail on purpose is filthy is 

464
00:29:48,900 --> 00:29:53,100
cramped, there's no physical 
distancing possible. 

465
00:29:53,100 --> 00:29:55,900
There's not sanitary conditions 
inside of a jail. 

466
00:29:55,900 --> 00:29:57,900
It's not easy to wash your 
hands. 

467
00:29:58,100 --> 00:30:02,300
It's not easy to do the things 
that would protect you. 

468
00:30:03,100 --> 00:30:06,700
But because we've created this 
horror place that, where 

469
00:30:06,700 --> 00:30:09,200
anything is again. 
It's like, it's like policing, 

470
00:30:09,700 --> 00:30:13,200
policing is about anything. 
Goes, we Do whatever we want to.

471
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,000
You jail is the same way, but 
then people go wait a minute, 

472
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:17,900
though. 
Wait a minute, though. 

473
00:30:19,300 --> 00:30:21,700
People have to staff the jail. 
People have to clean the jail. 

474
00:30:21,700 --> 00:30:23,600
People have to go serve food in 
the jail. 

475
00:30:24,100 --> 00:30:28,100
What if they get covid-19 sold 
care that the people in the 

476
00:30:28,100 --> 00:30:29,800
prison will get covid-19 and 
die. 

477
00:30:30,100 --> 00:30:33,200
They're like, well, what if this
affects the general population 

478
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,700
who isn't in jail, maybe we 
should do something about it. 

479
00:30:35,900 --> 00:30:40,200
Now, of course, what I've been 
seeing in Canada and the United 

480
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,500
States is that those are very 
lackluster half-hearted efforts 

481
00:30:44,500 --> 00:30:48,100
because there is a political 
taboo against showing sympathy 

482
00:30:48,100 --> 00:30:52,000
to prisoners. 
Yes, and so prisoners can make 

483
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,700
your covid-19 masks and then 
they themselves can't get 

484
00:30:54,700 --> 00:30:57,200
protection from covid-19. 
And they can contract it. 

485
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,600
And many people have died in our
prisons and jails during this 

486
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,400
pandemic. 
And there's been very little 

487
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,100
thought given to protecting 
them. 

488
00:31:04,100 --> 00:31:10,300
So people make money off of the 
bail program. 

489
00:31:10,300 --> 00:31:12,200
I wrote recently for yes 
everything. 

490
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,100
The first it's a new publication
that me and my friends have 

491
00:31:15,100 --> 00:31:19,400
begun in me and my colleague L 
Jones, the first piece that Road

492
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:24,500
is an investigation into a 
Canadian business tycoon and he 

493
00:31:24,500 --> 00:31:27,900
is named Prem Watsa and he is 
the largest investor in the 

494
00:31:27,900 --> 00:31:30,700
United States has for-profit 
bail system. 

495
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,600
So jail isn't just about keeping
you safe. 

496
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,900
It's about somebody making money
at people at in captivity at 

497
00:31:36,900 --> 00:31:40,500
their expense. 
And if those people are mostly 

498
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:45,600
disproportionately black 
indigenous other, racialized 

499
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,900
groups, disabled people, women 
who have been abused. 

500
00:31:49,100 --> 00:31:52,500
Used well too bad. 
Their safety is irrelevant. 

501
00:31:52,900 --> 00:31:54,800
That's why. 
I criticize the notion of Public

502
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,700
Safety because Public Safety. 
Just like policing is not a 

503
00:31:57,708 --> 00:32:00,000
universal. 
It's public safety for some at 

504
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:05,200
other peoples expense. 
So the prison is just a site to 

505
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,500
disappear people so that we can 
pretend we've done something 

506
00:32:08,500 --> 00:32:12,800
about problems in society when 
we've really just disappeared 

507
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,400
them and we have to abolish that
too. 

508
00:32:16,900 --> 00:32:19,500
And again just like the police 
people will say well, Will we be

509
00:32:19,500 --> 00:32:20,900
safe? 
How will we be safe? 

510
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,100
And you have police officers who
murder people and no one even 

511
00:32:25,100 --> 00:32:29,600
knows their name and they 
continue to work and police 

512
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:31,900
officers sexually. 
Assaulting people, the police in

513
00:32:31,900 --> 00:32:35,100
your country, engage in domestic
violence at a rate. 

514
00:32:35,100 --> 00:32:38,600
Four to five times, I believe of
the general public, who would be

515
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,900
surprised you give somebody a 
gun and a badge and you tell 

516
00:32:40,900 --> 00:32:42,600
them that they can do whatever 
they want. 

517
00:32:43,700 --> 00:32:47,700
So you'd be surprised that they 
have a huge rate of intimate 

518
00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:51,100
partner violence, but those 
people are walking around in the

519
00:32:51,100 --> 00:32:53,000
street every day. 
And in fact, they're walking 

520
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,800
around with more protection than
anybody else. 

521
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,000
So, I just think it's about 
getting real, about what we 

522
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:04,300
mean, when we say safety in the 
name, in the form of prisons and

523
00:33:04,300 --> 00:33:08,500
police whose safety. 
If we were to maybe start to 

524
00:33:08,500 --> 00:33:12,900
redefine some of these terms 
guilt-innocence Public Safety. 

525
00:33:13,500 --> 00:33:16,900
Police, where would you start if
you were creating a new? 

526
00:33:16,908 --> 00:33:22,000
It's not just a dictionary of a 
new set of definitions, but 

527
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:27,300
actual actions, that would 
redefine what we mean by Public 

528
00:33:27,300 --> 00:33:32,800
Safety. 
What we mean by policing and and

529
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,800
preventing crime, or all these 
things that were told that 

530
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,300
they're supposed to do. 
And when generally, the police 

531
00:33:40,300 --> 00:33:43,400
come after, the crime has been 
committed, you call 911. 

532
00:33:43,500 --> 00:33:48,100
One, and I've always, I've 
referred to them as crime-scene.

533
00:33:48,100 --> 00:33:52,500
Cleanup is what a lot, and then 
then they go out and try and 

534
00:33:52,500 --> 00:33:55,500
catch the bad guy. 
But I think most people, if they

535
00:33:55,500 --> 00:33:59,700
were thinking about their own 
safety, real safety is all the 

536
00:33:59,700 --> 00:34:02,900
preventive things that you'd 
want to do so that you wouldn't 

537
00:34:02,900 --> 00:34:07,100
even have to get to the point of
needing somebody with a badge 

538
00:34:07,100 --> 00:34:09,500
and a gun. 
I'm just curious how you would, 

539
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:14,800
how you would redefine the way 
that we talked about this and 

540
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,900
the way that we look at it. 
The first thing I think we need 

541
00:34:18,900 --> 00:34:21,000
to Define is the notion of crime
itself. 

542
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:29,100
What's a crime, what is crime? 
So again, if I'm walking through

543
00:34:29,100 --> 00:34:33,500
a park and I have a disagreement
with a white woman and she feels

544
00:34:33,500 --> 00:34:36,600
offended at our disagreement my 
criminal. 

545
00:34:37,699 --> 00:34:42,000
No, but that white woman can 
call the police and start crying

546
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,100
and saying that I've done 
something horrible to her. 

547
00:34:44,100 --> 00:34:46,800
And there's a black man near me 
in the park, and, of course, I'm

548
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,199
talking about Amy Cooper. 
And then the men with the guns 

549
00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:52,699
are dispatched and whatever they
see fit to do. 

550
00:34:52,699 --> 00:34:54,400
When they get there is their 
choice. 

551
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,100
There's no real law governing. 
What they do. 

552
00:34:57,300 --> 00:35:00,400
There's a notion that there's a 
live there but it doesn't 

553
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:05,200
protect black people. 
So, I mean, we have to redefine 

554
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,300
what what crime really even 
means. 

555
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:13,100
And I think that maybe it's not 
the most useful word because it 

556
00:35:13,100 --> 00:35:18,400
has taken on a racial 
connotation, right? 

557
00:35:18,500 --> 00:35:21,500
Right? 
Let's like people who commit 

558
00:35:21,500 --> 00:35:25,400
crime are Thugs and we have 
specific names. 

559
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:30,000
Some people get to be heroes 
when they commit crimes and 

560
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,900
police officers fall into that 
category police officers, who do

561
00:35:33,900 --> 00:35:37,300
the most cowardly things, 
handcuffed children, mace, 

562
00:35:37,300 --> 00:35:43,300
children, lie, to get people 
convicted of crimes so-called 

563
00:35:43,300 --> 00:35:48,900
crimes their cowardly but they 
are celebrated for their Social 

564
00:35:48,900 --> 00:35:54,500
behavior and they're rewarded 
with, you know, promotions and 

565
00:35:54,500 --> 00:35:56,500
Ward's, you know, the police 
officers. 

566
00:35:56,500 --> 00:36:00,400
Who shot Amadou Diallo on his 
porch in New York City? 

567
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,000
All those years ago, one of the 
police officers involved in that

568
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,200
shooting was later given like 
the New York's cop of the Year 

569
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,500
kind of Award, right? 
We do the same thing here in 

570
00:36:09,500 --> 00:36:13,300
Ontario. 
Somebody who is engaged in 

571
00:36:13,500 --> 00:36:16,400
racial profiling? 
Incident becomes the lead of a 

572
00:36:16,408 --> 00:36:21,100
racial profiling police team. 
Somebody who harm somebody on a 

573
00:36:21,107 --> 00:36:24,100
mental health call. 
Then goes and joins a mental 

574
00:36:24,100 --> 00:36:27,100
health liaison unit, this is 
exactly what we do. 

575
00:36:27,100 --> 00:36:29,400
We reward certain kinds of 
crime. 

576
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:34,000
So if you can't see what the 
police do as being criminal, 

577
00:36:34,500 --> 00:36:37,300
then there's a problem with that
woman and we needed maybe need 

578
00:36:37,300 --> 00:36:43,600
to redefine and re-examine that.
But what I really think that 

579
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:51,700
needs doing is rethinking Safety
for real rethinking. 

580
00:36:51,700 --> 00:36:57,000
What care means for real, you 
talked about prevention and I 

581
00:36:57,008 --> 00:36:59,300
don't even know if I like that 
idea only. 

582
00:36:59,300 --> 00:37:02,600
Because again, if you have this 
notion that there is this kind 

583
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:08,200
of like inevitable crime, that 
is going to take place and that 

584
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,900
you have to act to prevent it. 
You're not really focused on 

585
00:37:11,900 --> 00:37:14,000
just being good to people, 
you're focused on preventing 

586
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,200
something terrible and scary and
bad from happening. 

587
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,200
And you're going towards that 
white paranoia. 

588
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:19,600
Now that we've all been taught, 
see. 

589
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:23,200
I think if we were just if we 
were good to people that when I 

590
00:37:23,207 --> 00:37:26,300
hear people say they're afraid 
of, you know, crying or 

591
00:37:26,300 --> 00:37:28,800
whatever. 
I just saying, you know, the 

592
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,700
chances, like if you know the 
person living next door to you, 

593
00:37:31,700 --> 00:37:35,300
if they're making fifty sixty 
seventy thousand dollars a year.

594
00:37:35,300 --> 00:37:37,300
What's the chance of them 
breaking into your house? 

595
00:37:37,700 --> 00:37:41,700
Stealing your TV? 
None is the answer. 

596
00:37:42,300 --> 00:37:45,600
I mean, there's I guess there is
a psychological or there's some 

597
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,000
kind of you know, if you're a 
kleptomaniac I guess. 

598
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,900
Maybe. 
Seriously, if we divided the 

599
00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:57,200
economic pie differently, if 
people had Healthcare, real 

600
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,600
Healthcare, that included mental
health, where they could get 

601
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,500
help. 
All these other things that 

602
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:08,500
whatever you're worried about 
somebody on your street doing 

603
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,500
and I don't even think you're 
worried about somebody on your 

604
00:38:11,500 --> 00:38:13,000
street doing it. 
I think you're worried about 

605
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,000
somebody coming from some other 
Street. 

606
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,800
You're worried about the outside
faceless stranger Ranger. 

607
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,700
Yes. 
Into your the exactly you're not

608
00:38:21,700 --> 00:38:23,100
worried about little 
freckle-faced. 

609
00:38:23,100 --> 00:38:25,800
Jimmy down the street. 
You're you're worried about 

610
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,400
something else. 
What if we write, if you have 

611
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,200
money and you're walking late at
night, you're worried about 

612
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,800
somebody who doesn't have any 
money coming and taking your 

613
00:38:34,100 --> 00:38:36,600
money, taking your wallet. 
That's that's, that's what 

614
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,100
people are paranoid about. 
But I think it's very 

615
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:45,400
short-sighted to ask people will
just think about helping those 

616
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,900
people and then you won't have 
to worry anymore. 

617
00:38:47,900 --> 00:38:50,600
I don't That works. 
And the reason it doesn't work 

618
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:54,700
is because that's not centering 
people's Humanity, people 

619
00:38:54,700 --> 00:38:58,500
deserve Health Care not so that 
they won't go and hurt somebody 

620
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,900
people deserve a home, not so 
that they won't go in hurt 

621
00:39:01,900 --> 00:39:04,300
somebody because they deserve a 
home because they deserve health

622
00:39:04,300 --> 00:39:09,300
care because they deserve to go 
to school, just deserve those 

623
00:39:09,300 --> 00:39:14,400
basic things just on their face.
Not not, because all I'm going 

624
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:19,100
to do this because it'll protect
me from being hurt by them 

625
00:39:19,100 --> 00:39:22,000
someday. 
It should just be done because 

626
00:39:22,300 --> 00:39:25,500
we're freakin human beings and 
it's the human right thing to 

627
00:39:25,500 --> 00:39:27,700
do. 
It is a human, right? 

628
00:39:27,700 --> 00:39:31,100
To be able to have those things 
that in and of itself should be 

629
00:39:31,100 --> 00:39:33,400
enough. 
Well it should be a human 

630
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,100
responsibility to care for one 
another. 

631
00:39:36,100 --> 00:39:37,300
That's what I mean. 
Right? 

632
00:39:37,300 --> 00:39:38,400
That's accurate. 
Yeah. 

633
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:42,200
But rights and responsibilities 
are they're not the same and I 

634
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,200
think that's another answer to 
part of your question here is 

635
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:49,000
that we need to move away from a
framework of Saying we will 

636
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,100
codify under law that you must 
not do this. 

637
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,000
And that, if you do, do it, 
there will be harsh, serious 

638
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,900
consequences of punishment. 
And hope that people behave. 

639
00:39:58,900 --> 00:40:01,900
When we tell them that, we've 
got to move away from that to 

640
00:40:01,900 --> 00:40:05,700
moving towards a system that 
says, like, a great society is 

641
00:40:05,700 --> 00:40:07,300
one where we're all responsible 
for. 

642
00:40:07,300 --> 00:40:10,200
What happens to one another, we 
take that responsibility 

643
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:14,900
seriously, and we live our lives
that way. 

644
00:40:14,900 --> 00:40:19,500
And so, you know, This is 
probably happening in the United

645
00:40:19,500 --> 00:40:22,200
States as well. 
But in all of our major cities 

646
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:26,900
in Canada, Michael we're seeing 
encampments in Parks. 

647
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:31,900
People are just setting up shop 
in the local park, because there

648
00:40:31,900 --> 00:40:38,500
is no housing because covid-19 
has really made the austerity 

649
00:40:38,500 --> 00:40:40,800
that we've all been engaging in 
our countries. 

650
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:45,000
It's made it much more visible. 
All of a sudden you can't hide 

651
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:46,700
it anymore. 
People are losing their jobs. 

652
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,800
People are losing their homes, 
people are losing their hair 

653
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:55,300
Apartments, they're losing work,
benefits, and they're ending up 

654
00:40:55,300 --> 00:40:59,300
in these really visible 
situations in places like our 

655
00:40:59,300 --> 00:41:02,900
public parks camping out because
there is nowhere else for them 

656
00:41:02,900 --> 00:41:05,900
to go. 
Now, some people see that in and

657
00:41:05,908 --> 00:41:09,900
of itself as a criminal act and 
certainly, there are bylaws that

658
00:41:09,900 --> 00:41:11,800
are cities that say, you're not 
allowed to pitch a tent in the 

659
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,400
park, you're not allowed to 
start a fire in a park to keep 

660
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:19,400
yourself warm. 
So technically being poor is 

661
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:26,300
still a crime. 
And what we see from some people

662
00:41:26,300 --> 00:41:28,600
is like I'm not going to take 
that approach. 

663
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,200
I'm actually going to take a 
reproach to that's approach. 

664
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,200
That says, if somebody's camping
in a park, it's my 

665
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,800
responsibility to go over and be
like, hey, are you okay? 

666
00:41:36,300 --> 00:41:40,100
What do you need? 
And so as we've seen this 

667
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:45,100
Devastation, we've also seen 
unprecedented organizing and 

668
00:41:45,100 --> 00:41:48,600
mutual Aid. 
Of people spending their money 

669
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,200
to make sure that people who 
live in a local park. 

670
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:57,200
Have food have clean water, have
a sleeping bag, have a tent have

671
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,200
access to health services, have 
access to getting a vaccination 

672
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,500
because they don't have an 
address or sometimes 

673
00:42:02,500 --> 00:42:07,400
identification and they're not 
doing it because they think well

674
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,800
if I make sure the people in the
park get vaccinated I won't get 

675
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,800
covid cuz That's not a 
one-to-one. 

676
00:42:13,900 --> 00:42:16,700
They're just doing it because 
they feel a responsibility. 

677
00:42:17,100 --> 00:42:19,600
How do we Foster? 
A greater sense of 

678
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:23,700
responsibility to counteract all
of the people who are only 

679
00:42:23,700 --> 00:42:26,200
acting defensively and out of 
self-interest? 

680
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,700
I think that's really one of 
what we want to ask ourselves. 

681
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:35,500
How do we Foster that? 
And I believe, you know, I read 

682
00:42:35,500 --> 00:42:40,000
a lot of folks, including I 
mentioned Miriam Kaba earlier, 

683
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:46,700
Andrea rich, Gee, there's so 
many people doing amazing work 

684
00:42:46,900 --> 00:42:50,300
talking about these things and 
talking about what we could do 

685
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:55,600
with all the money, the billions
and billions of dollars that 

686
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:59,100
we're giving to the police not 
giving it to her ordinary. 

687
00:42:59,100 --> 00:43:01,300
People were giving it to the 
police. 

688
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:02,900
And we don't give it to the 
police because we think they'll 

689
00:43:02,900 --> 00:43:05,000
keep things safe, Michael, we 
give it to the police because we

690
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:09,800
think that they morally deserve 
it and we weren't people were 

691
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:15,100
sleeping in the park because 
they morally, Razor, but defund 

692
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:20,400
or defund police dot org is an 
amazing website that people can 

693
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:26,300
go to and start reading about. 
Well, what would happen if we 

694
00:43:26,300 --> 00:43:31,600
started shifting our resources, 
what would happen if we did 

695
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:36,600
things differently and this 
Coalition of black, mainly black

696
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:39,600
lead groups in the United States
at defund police dot org. 

697
00:43:40,100 --> 00:43:42,300
You know what they're doing? 
They're doing things. 

698
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:46,700
Things like police have military
grade weapons in our cities. 

699
00:43:46,700 --> 00:43:49,100
You talking about these kind of 
things in Bowling for Columbine,

700
00:43:49,100 --> 00:43:52,700
like you this idea that you can 
just you know, defend yourself 

701
00:43:52,700 --> 00:43:54,600
and your city by like, do you 
need a tank? 

702
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:56,200
Do you need a nuke? 
What do you need? 

703
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,400
But the police literally have 
tanks they have chemical 

704
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:00,700
weapons. 
They have military grade 

705
00:44:00,700 --> 00:44:02,600
weapons. 
So people who are doing a 

706
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,900
defined movement or like take 
that away, let's spend it on 

707
00:44:05,900 --> 00:44:07,400
something that's actually going 
to help people. 

708
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,900
Let's think about our 
responsibilities to people 

709
00:44:10,100 --> 00:44:12,200
instead of protecting ourselves 
from a book. 

710
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:19,200
Man, let's take money and divest
it from the police, and spend it

711
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:23,100
on the things that we truly 
truly value, and care about, 

712
00:44:23,100 --> 00:44:28,800
spend it on care, suspended, on 
support for people. 

713
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:33,400
And I just think this is the 
attitude that we really need to 

714
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:37,500
continue to Foster because 
defunding is great, as long as 

715
00:44:37,500 --> 00:44:41,400
it's, a means toward never 
having these kinds of Human 

716
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,700
Relationships. 
Again, why do you think the 

717
00:44:44,700 --> 00:44:52,200
white liberal pundits have been 
just railing against this 

718
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:57,200
concept of defund? 
The police and warning other 

719
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:00,900
liberals or lefties do not use 
this term or we're going to lose

720
00:45:00,908 --> 00:45:03,400
the next election. 
I mean they've been very 

721
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:08,400
forceful and have. 
It's really gotten their backs 

722
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:15,300
up because they they think this 
is the way that the Republicans 

723
00:45:15,300 --> 00:45:19,900
are going to Rally white people 
out to the polls next year. 

724
00:45:20,300 --> 00:45:22,400
Yeah, I mean, I think you've 
answered your own question. 

725
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:28,200
This is about politics. 
It's, it's Defund is a losing 

726
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:34,700
message to White liberals and 
they don't care about the 

727
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:39,600
ethical underpinning of defund. 
They just think white people 

728
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,200
aren't going to listen to that. 
So don't do it. 

729
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,700
It's the politics of expediency.
And so politics of not having to

730
00:45:46,700 --> 00:45:49,100
give a fuck because it doesn't 
affect you in the same way that 

731
00:45:49,100 --> 00:45:52,300
affects other people. 
So, I don't really care if white

732
00:45:52,300 --> 00:45:55,000
people here defund and get 
scared you here. 

733
00:45:55,900 --> 00:46:01,700
That Society has been pointing a
gun on Black and Indigenous 

734
00:46:01,700 --> 00:46:05,700
people for hundreds of years and
we're thinking that maybe we're 

735
00:46:05,700 --> 00:46:08,800
going to take that gun away. 
And that makes you scared. 

736
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:10,900
That's your problem. 
That's not my problem. 

737
00:46:10,900 --> 00:46:13,100
I don't have to sit around in 
the mace waste my life, 

738
00:46:13,100 --> 00:46:16,900
convincing you that I deserve to
live without societies gun 

739
00:46:16,900 --> 00:46:19,700
pointed at me. 
Every day without Society 

740
00:46:20,100 --> 00:46:24,100
watching and surveilling me 
every day I have a right to live

741
00:46:24,100 --> 00:46:26,500
without all of that. 
And if you're Not sure, that's 

742
00:46:26,500 --> 00:46:29,500
your problem. 
But what do I liberals care? 

743
00:46:29,500 --> 00:46:32,400
If this isn't their world, if 
it's not their family members in

744
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:36,100
jail because not their children 
being followed around by the 

745
00:46:36,100 --> 00:46:38,900
police officer in their schools,
Walking The Halls. 

746
00:46:39,700 --> 00:46:43,200
What do they care? 
If they feel like they're safe 

747
00:46:43,700 --> 00:46:46,600
because certain people need to 
be followed around, certain 

748
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,400
people are scary, certain people
are antisocial. 

749
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:51,700
Of course, that they're not 
going to go for this as a 

750
00:46:51,700 --> 00:46:55,200
political message, but this is 
not a political slogan. 

751
00:46:56,100 --> 00:46:58,700
You know, this is not about 
expediency or winning a 

752
00:46:58,707 --> 00:47:02,300
political argument or winning 
through incremental ISM. 

753
00:47:02,500 --> 00:47:08,400
Again, if Miriam Kaaba is 
correct and policing is actually

754
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:12,400
in and of itself, a death making
institution. 

755
00:47:13,300 --> 00:47:16,700
Well, you don't try to reduce a 
desperate death, making 

756
00:47:16,700 --> 00:47:21,200
institution, incrementally, and 
hope that 40 or 50 years from. 

757
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:23,700
Now, things are different. 
But I'll tell you what, Michael,

758
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:30,200
I studied these things in the 
1980s and 90s in Toronto, we 

759
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:34,100
were talking about hiring more 
police officers of black 

760
00:47:34,100 --> 00:47:38,000
Heritage to change the way that 
policing looks. 

761
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:41,300
We're talking about that 30 and 
40 years ago. 

762
00:47:41,300 --> 00:47:46,900
Liberal ideology about reforming
police incrementally is 

763
00:47:46,900 --> 00:47:50,700
completely bankrupt. 
And I would add insincere 

764
00:47:50,700 --> 00:47:53,000
liberals, don't want to address 
this problem. 

765
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,800
They want us to shut the hell up
about it. 

766
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:59,900
That's all they want. 
So who the fuck cares? 

767
00:47:59,900 --> 00:48:01,800
What they say, we're on a 
mission. 

768
00:48:02,300 --> 00:48:04,900
If they come on board, they come
on board. 

769
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:09,700
But how many miles are we really
going to gain begging liberal 

770
00:48:09,700 --> 00:48:13,100
people to acknowledge our 
Humanity as black people? 

771
00:48:13,700 --> 00:48:16,000
It doesn't make me feel good to 
wake up in the morning and be 

772
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:17,400
like, that's what I'm going to 
do today. 

773
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:21,700
So they can argue that they're 
the majority and we need them. 

774
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:26,300
and I say like, you know go to 
church and get over your damn 

775
00:48:26,300 --> 00:48:30,800
self really like, right height, 
we're being told that we need 

776
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:36,600
white people in order to change 
the world because it's just this

777
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:42,300
equivalent of like, you know, 
When one kid owns the the soccer

778
00:48:42,300 --> 00:48:45,500
ball or the basketball and says,
I'm going to take my ball and go

779
00:48:45,500 --> 00:48:46,900
home. 
Well, we'll play a different 

780
00:48:46,900 --> 00:48:52,100
game then we don't need to play 
your game if you have so much 

781
00:48:52,100 --> 00:48:57,600
Authority and control but you 
want to Delay for the next 30 

782
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:03,600
Years and have an intellectual 
argument an ideological or, you 

783
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:06,700
know, argument about like do 
black people, deserve this kind 

784
00:49:06,700 --> 00:49:08,400
of safety or will it put me in 
safety? 

785
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,100
We don't have time for that. 
We just don't have time. 

786
00:49:11,300 --> 00:49:15,000
White liberalism is a bankrupt 
ideology that doesn't have any 

787
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,200
answers. 
You're telling us things that 

788
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:23,400
people tried 30 and 40 years ago
not caring or being invested in 

789
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,800
whether it really works or not. 
So if If no more black cops on 

790
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,100
the force works are not white 
liberals, don't really care 

791
00:49:29,100 --> 00:49:31,000
either way because that's not 
their bag. 

792
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:35,900
If releasing more people from 
prison helps or not. 

793
00:49:36,300 --> 00:49:38,100
What do they care? 
They rather feel more 

794
00:49:38,100 --> 00:49:40,400
comfortable so that there's no 
liabilities on them. 

795
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:44,200
In case we let out a bad person,
so right, you have all kind of 

796
00:49:44,207 --> 00:49:46,500
control over people's lives and 
you're just like, you know what,

797
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:50,200
keep them under subjection 
because I don't want to have to 

798
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,200
take a risk of them being bad 
and harmful, that's how much 

799
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:57,500
power people have and they want 
to Negotiate with them and I'm 

800
00:49:57,500 --> 00:50:00,400
done with that. 
So if white Liberals are not on 

801
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:02,600
board, they better get the hell 
out of the way. 

802
00:50:02,700 --> 00:50:06,300
That is exactly how I feel and I
just turned the TV off. 

803
00:50:06,300 --> 00:50:07,700
Now, I don't want to listen to 
this. 

804
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:10,800
I don't want to lose it. 
Sounds like a bunch of whiners 

805
00:50:11,300 --> 00:50:14,900
and it's usually white men and 
frankly, I know the 

806
00:50:14,900 --> 00:50:17,800
demographics, I know the 
statistics of this country, I 

807
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:21,200
know they buy somewhere before 
2044. 

808
00:50:22,700 --> 00:50:25,200
You know just a little over 20 
years from now the majority of 

809
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:27,200
this Country is not going to be 
white. 

810
00:50:27,700 --> 00:50:32,300
So get with the program is what 
I try to tell white people 

811
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:38,200
because you're living in an old 
world and that world was racist,

812
00:50:38,900 --> 00:50:44,900
that that world was a colonial 
world that believed in genocide.

813
00:50:45,700 --> 00:50:48,300
This is a country that was 
founded in it. 

814
00:50:48,300 --> 00:50:53,400
Founded in genocide and built on
the backs of slaves and if you 

815
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:57,600
can't just admit that simple. 
Fact, I don't know what to do 

816
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:02,500
with you other than to say, 
well, you know what about 30 32 

817
00:51:02,500 --> 00:51:08,600
percent of the u.s. right now 
are people of color and there 

818
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:14,200
and white women make up, maybe, 
maybe 35% of the population. 

819
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:18,800
And, and if a majority of them, 
not all of them because we know 

820
00:51:20,100 --> 00:51:25,400
Trump got a lot of their votes 
but just just enough They add on

821
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:28,300
to that that 32 when you have 
thirty two percent of the 

822
00:51:28,308 --> 00:51:32,900
country who are people of color,
it seems like, what is that 

823
00:51:32,900 --> 00:51:38,800
another 18% your 50%. 
So can we can we get just a few 

824
00:51:38,808 --> 00:51:44,300
good white men and maybe a close
to a majority of the white women

825
00:51:44,300 --> 00:51:48,300
and and that's and then we build
our policies and we get our 

826
00:51:48,300 --> 00:51:52,600
elections around that instead of
I have to listen to this every 

827
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:55,700
day about what we have to reach 
out. out to the Republicans 

828
00:51:55,700 --> 00:51:58,800
know, we don't well, okay, I 
want to, I want to think through

829
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:05,000
this a little bit because I 
mean, you know, for me I don't 

830
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:11,000
really see the Battleground, the
major Battleground being 

831
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:15,200
electoral politics. 
So we need to get to 50 plus 1 

832
00:52:15,500 --> 00:52:18,100
and then we get all the policies
that we want. 

833
00:52:18,300 --> 00:52:24,300
Barack Obama had a supermajority
right in 2008. 

834
00:52:24,500 --> 00:52:27,700
He, well, maybe didn't have 60 
votes in the Senate, I guess, 

835
00:52:27,700 --> 00:52:31,600
but no, but he had enough, he 
had enough but it was 

836
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:34,900
squandered. 
Well, but he was afraid of His 

837
00:52:34,900 --> 00:52:38,400
own party who were yeah for 
people loyal to police loyal to 

838
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:41,500
insurance companies and Banks 
right away or the healthcare 

839
00:52:41,500 --> 00:52:45,100
Lobby Wall Street. 
And and so I think this is a 

840
00:52:45,107 --> 00:52:47,800
cautionary thing for us to think
about in a lot of different 

841
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:49,500
ways. 
America is not going to 

842
00:52:49,500 --> 00:52:51,700
demographic itself out of these 
issues. 

843
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:58,600
America is a country whose as a 
legal entity is founded upon 

844
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:00,500
white supremacy and settler 
colonialism. 

845
00:53:00,500 --> 00:53:03,800
As you just mentioned, Canada is
exactly the same. 

846
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:10,600
You don't change that by 
changing the demographics of the

847
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:15,700
country, but leaving in place, 
the ideological foundations and 

848
00:53:15,700 --> 00:53:21,900
legal system of that entity, you
can't Brock Obama presided over 

849
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,600
thousands of black people. 
Being murdered by the police and

850
00:53:25,700 --> 00:53:27,500
was too scared to do anything 
about it. 

851
00:53:27,500 --> 00:53:28,900
Right? 
Barack Obama said, I'm going to 

852
00:53:28,900 --> 00:53:31,500
close Guantanamo Bay and then 
was like oh man. 

853
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:37,700
You know, you build this like 
site of complete human suffering

854
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:40,400
and its really really hard to 
undo it. 

855
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,900
Like so I guess I have an excuse
that it was really a lot harder 

856
00:53:44,900 --> 00:53:47,800
everybody than I thought and I'm
sorry but you know, I couldn't 

857
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:51,000
get this done. 
Everybody thought the black man 

858
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:52,800
with me? 
I didn't think the black man was

859
00:53:52,808 --> 00:53:55,600
going to come in and like make 
magic and make it rain, but some

860
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:58,000
people did. 
And some people actually expect 

861
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:00,300
that of us as black people, they
expect the black people to come 

862
00:54:00,300 --> 00:54:03,300
out every election because 
they're black and have an 

863
00:54:03,300 --> 00:54:08,100
ideological bent that saves 
their own lives and votes in 

864
00:54:08,100 --> 00:54:12,100
their own so-called interest. 
But there are also black 

865
00:54:12,100 --> 00:54:17,700
billionaires, they're also black
CEOs, they're also black judges 

866
00:54:17,700 --> 00:54:21,400
and police officers. 
Hours and prison wardens that 

867
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:24,200
don't actually want this system 
to change because they're also 

868
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:26,900
benefiting from it. 
So I don't think the answer here

869
00:54:26,900 --> 00:54:29,500
is just a hope that in 20, or 30
years, there's enough, black and

870
00:54:29,508 --> 00:54:31,900
brown people that we don't have 
these policies anymore. 

871
00:54:32,300 --> 00:54:36,100
White supremacy is an ideology 
doesn't reside inside of the 

872
00:54:36,100 --> 00:54:39,600
individual. 
It's, it's more akin to like the

873
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:42,800
air were breathing and right? 
So how do we, how do we 

874
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:47,000
eliminate that? 
I think this is why I wrote a 

875
00:54:47,008 --> 00:54:49,500
whole book. 
And I think this is Is why I've 

876
00:54:49,500 --> 00:54:54,700
spent the last ten years of my 
life fighting against white 

877
00:54:54,700 --> 00:55:00,100
supremacy, settler colonialism, 
fighting against Notions of 

878
00:55:00,100 --> 00:55:06,400
patriarchy. 
Tryna understand the harm that 

879
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:10,400
they are causing and how 
malleable they are, right. 

880
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:14,600
And how transferable that they 
are, that it doesn't have to be 

881
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:17,800
a white person sitting at the 
top of these entities and 

882
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:20,800
reinforcing everything at all. 
And sometimes it works better 

883
00:55:21,500 --> 00:55:23,700
because when you have Barack 
Obama than everywhere, you can't

884
00:55:23,700 --> 00:55:25,700
say he's racist now because 
Barack Obama. 

885
00:55:25,700 --> 00:55:28,900
We have a lot of black police 
chief's here in Ontario 

886
00:55:28,900 --> 00:55:30,800
recently. 
That's the new thing is, you 

887
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:34,200
want to get the black Back 
demonstrators to shut up. 

888
00:55:34,700 --> 00:55:36,600
Will you start putting in black 
police chief's? 

889
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,100
Because then if the black police
chief does something it can't be

890
00:55:39,100 --> 00:55:41,500
racist. 
None of these things are true. 

891
00:55:41,900 --> 00:55:45,800
The black police chief though 
knows that it is his job to 

892
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:48,700
reinforce the white supremacist 
settlor culture. 

893
00:55:48,900 --> 00:55:52,400
And that if he doesn't do that, 
he can't get the respect of his 

894
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:55,600
officers, right? 
Well, even in the Derrick, 

895
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:59,400
Chauvin trial the prosecutor. 
There's a white prosecutor. 

896
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:01,500
It's a black prosecutor stood 
there. 

897
00:56:01,700 --> 00:56:05,800
And they won and said, we are 
not putting the police on trial 

898
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:11,900
or the police system on trial. 
We are putting one individual 

899
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:17,400
here on trial, that's all that 
this means, and this, in this 

900
00:56:17,500 --> 00:56:20,100
sort of, they didn't say it. 
They didn't say it, but it's 

901
00:56:20,100 --> 00:56:25,400
sort of look friends, you see? 
It's just this one bad apple and

902
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,000
the rest of the batch of apples 
are good. 

903
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:31,500
And but we, the criminal justice
system. 

904
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:35,500
Some were going to get rid of 
this bad apple for you and then 

905
00:56:35,500 --> 00:56:39,400
things will be okay. 
I think the problem is that a 

906
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:42,700
lot of people Even who wanted to
see. 

907
00:56:42,700 --> 00:56:45,300
Derek Chauvin convicted believe 
that. 

908
00:56:46,100 --> 00:56:50,200
They believe, you know. 
How many people did we see after

909
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:55,300
that decision? 
Saying, I hope, I hope. 

910
00:56:56,300 --> 00:56:58,300
That this is a step toward 
change. 

911
00:56:58,300 --> 00:57:02,300
Why would it be if you needed 
the Derek Chauvin trial? 

912
00:57:03,500 --> 00:57:09,000
To have some kind of epiphany 
about policing and I think 

913
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:12,100
you're probably still part of 
the problem, right? 

914
00:57:12,500 --> 00:57:17,300
And that is, that is what I 
think is wrong with the 

915
00:57:17,300 --> 00:57:21,400
attention that gets paid to each
of these individual cases. 

916
00:57:21,500 --> 00:57:25,400
They are so few and far between.
Anyway, Michael, I mean, the 

917
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:27,300
Derek Chauvin trial is 
exceptional because it even 

918
00:57:27,300 --> 00:57:30,100
happened. 
That's not going to happen to 

919
00:57:30,100 --> 00:57:32,600
most police officers, who take a
black person's life. 

920
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:36,000
Mm-hmm. 
An independent person, who is 

921
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:41,500
black and scared Having the 
courage to stand by and film 

922
00:57:41,500 --> 00:57:44,500
that incident independent of a 
police body camera. 

923
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:45,700
Yeah. 
Right. 

924
00:57:45,700 --> 00:57:51,500
And, and handing that 
information over like so that it

925
00:57:51,500 --> 00:57:55,600
can, it can, it can be seen and 
used by other people. 

926
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:59,100
Like, I'm talking, of course, 
about the melon Fraser, who 

927
00:57:59,100 --> 00:58:01,800
stood there and filmed what 
Derek Chauvin, did to George 

928
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:03,800
Floyd, right? 
That's not Don't happen in most 

929
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:09,500
cases, where a police officer 
murders, a black person. but 

930
00:58:09,500 --> 00:58:13,300
this is all again, if this is an
ideological exercise for people,

931
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:17,100
And they haven't decided that 
the police are the killing 

932
00:58:17,100 --> 00:58:20,400
institution that Miriam Kaaba 
says, they still want to be 

933
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:23,500
proven, yes or no on a 
case-by-case basis and they want

934
00:58:23,500 --> 00:58:26,600
to go home and think about it 
while the police continue to 

935
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:31,100
take our lives which is why we 
can't wait for them now. 

936
00:58:31,100 --> 00:58:34,500
But right, so what do we do? 
Because I don't want to wait. 

937
00:58:34,500 --> 00:58:37,900
I don't want to wait another 
minute and I want and I want the

938
00:58:37,900 --> 00:58:43,200
institution, not the individual 
officer and I want white people.

939
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:48,600
To own certain things. 
I want fellow men to own certain

940
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:53,300
things and maybe we begin to 
change our attitudes as human 

941
00:58:53,300 --> 00:58:56,500
beings. 
I believe that the most 

942
00:58:56,500 --> 00:59:01,000
effective organizing happens in 
the places, where we exist and 

943
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:05,800
spend a lot of our time. 
Derek Chauvin is trial is an 

944
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:10,900
abstraction that makes it seem 
like whether he is found 

945
00:59:10,900 --> 00:59:14,100
innocent or guilty is going to 
determine what happens. 

946
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:19,000
For you and your town near or 
far from there and it's just not

947
00:59:19,300 --> 00:59:21,800
true. 
The cops in your town aren't 

948
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:25,100
waiting for the Derek Chauvin 
verdict to decide how they want 

949
00:59:25,100 --> 00:59:27,100
to treat black people. 
They already know how they're 

950
00:59:27,100 --> 00:59:30,500
going to treat them. 
And so it's about organizing 

951
00:59:30,500 --> 00:59:32,900
where we live. 
One of the things that I've been

952
00:59:32,900 --> 00:59:37,700
so inspired by where I live is 
that all across Canada in the 

953
00:59:37,700 --> 00:59:41,100
last 20 or 30 years, we've begun
to have armed police officers in

954
00:59:41,100 --> 00:59:44,000
our schools Americans. 
Think that Canada is so 

955
00:59:44,100 --> 00:59:47,600
Different from their country and
they don't understand that 

956
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:51,900
Canada and a cultural sense 
worships the United States and 

957
00:59:51,900 --> 00:59:57,100
is jealous and Covetous of the 
United States and wants to be 

958
00:59:57,100 --> 01:00:00,900
like our neighbors to the South 
wants to be the big bad strong 

959
01:00:00,900 --> 01:00:04,600
one that everybody is afraid of 
and we emulate a lot of 

960
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:06,600
practices. 
We've emulated all of the 

961
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:08,400
austerity. 
I mean I won't even say emulate 

962
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:11,700
Canada has its own reasons for 
wanting to starve and 

963
01:00:11,700 --> 01:00:14,000
impoverished black and 
Indigenous people. 

964
01:00:14,100 --> 01:00:18,200
So that they can drive your cab.
Instead of being a doctor or, 

965
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:22,200
you know, like, there are 
reasons for this that are not 

966
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:24,400
about following the United 
States as lead. 

967
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:29,400
But anyway, What we've seen in 
where I live. 

968
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:32,500
Is that, like, people in their 
local communities have seen 

969
01:00:32,500 --> 01:00:35,800
these cops in our schools and 
been like I don't want Cops in 

970
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:39,200
my school and I'm not going to 
wait till like see if another 

971
01:00:39,200 --> 01:00:44,000
city or region gets rid of them.
My kids go to this school and 

972
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:48,200
there's a cop there and we're 
going to get them out and across

973
01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:52,200
the last several years in 
Toronto, where I live in 

974
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:56,400
Hamilton, just down the road in 
peel region, which is Just west 

975
01:00:56,400 --> 01:01:00,800
of us and contains a huge black 
and brown population. 

976
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:07,000
But as far as West is Vancouver,
on the west coast people are 

977
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:09,400
getting police officers out of 
their schools and they're doing 

978
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:11,800
that organizing locally because 
you're not going to get police 

979
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:15,800
officers in another cities 
schools out by organizing from 

980
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:17,800
far away. 
You're going to do that by 

981
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:21,600
appealing to Local Schools. 
Local school board officials, 

982
01:01:22,300 --> 01:01:23,700
right? 
And right. 

983
01:01:23,700 --> 01:01:28,000
Having a local Confrontation 
that says this is bad for our 

984
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:31,200
kids and by the way, we don't 
have public health nurses. 

985
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:34,300
In our schools, we don't have 
meal programs in our schools 

986
01:01:34,300 --> 01:01:37,700
again, what keeps people safe 
and well and what do people 

987
01:01:37,700 --> 01:01:43,000
deserve not give black people 
meal program instead of police 

988
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:46,500
so that they don't hurt or 
threaten, you give it to them 

989
01:01:46,500 --> 01:01:50,900
because they need it. 
And that's a local thing that's 

990
01:01:50,900 --> 01:01:53,600
happening. 
The local organizing about 

991
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:56,800
defunding police is happening. 
T by city. 

992
01:01:57,200 --> 01:01:59,900
So when a group like defund 
police dot-org says that they've

993
01:01:59,900 --> 01:02:02,300
secured like almost eight 
hundred and fifty million 

994
01:02:02,300 --> 01:02:06,300
dollars, of divestment from 
Beloit Police Department's. 

995
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:11,200
That wasn't everybody watching 
One decision or City Council on 

996
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:13,500
TV and being like, wow, we 
should maybe do that. 

997
01:02:13,500 --> 01:02:16,200
It was people in their local 
communities being like, yeah, 

998
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:19,000
fuck the police. 
We need money for schools. 

999
01:02:19,100 --> 01:02:22,100
We need money for roads. 
We need money for health care. 

1000
01:02:22,900 --> 01:02:25,100
We need money to fix buildings 
that are falling down. 

1001
01:02:25,100 --> 01:02:28,700
We need money for or housing, 
the local fight, the place, 

1002
01:02:28,700 --> 01:02:33,000
where you spend the most time, 
people who live in cities and 

1003
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:37,200
towns, where the heat buildings.
Part of the economy is a prison 

1004
01:02:38,300 --> 01:02:41,400
And thinking, you know what, we 
don't want to live in a prison 

1005
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:44,600
economy, is the people who are 
living there, who are like, we 

1006
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:47,400
need to change this. 
We need actually way for us to 

1007
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:51,000
live here and it has to be that 
way, Michael because no one's 

1008
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:53,700
going to let Outsiders come in 
and tell them things like this. 

1009
01:02:53,700 --> 01:02:56,500
That are so Central to their 
lives, right, right? 

1010
01:02:56,500 --> 01:02:58,500
No. 
This is an important Point, very

1011
01:02:58,500 --> 01:03:02,400
important point the way. 
And and again, the 

1012
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:05,800
sensationalism of things like a 
murder trial, that is broadcast 

1013
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:08,400
on TV and I grew up during the 
oh, O.j. era. 

1014
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:12,800
So, O'Jays trial, set the 
standard for like this idea that

1015
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:17,600
we're all going to participate 
by proxy by watching and that 

1016
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:20,500
we're all going to be changed 
Forever by the distant what 

1017
01:03:20,500 --> 01:03:24,600
other Hollywood nonsense. 
It's the local fight in your 

1018
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:27,100
community around the things that
are affecting people for you. 

1019
01:03:27,100 --> 01:03:30,500
And that's why I brought up the 
example of people helping people

1020
01:03:30,500 --> 01:03:33,700
in their local park, no one's 
going to do that work, but the 

1021
01:03:33,707 --> 01:03:38,200
people who live near the park 
and see somebody There in the 

1022
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:41,600
elements being like that person 
needs a hat that person needs a 

1023
01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:44,800
code that person needs access to
water. 

1024
01:03:44,900 --> 01:03:47,600
I'm going to make sure that it 
happens and then when I see my 

1025
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:50,500
local public official isn't 
helping, I'm going to get on 

1026
01:03:50,500 --> 01:03:52,900
their back and say, why aren't 
you doing this work? 

1027
01:03:52,900 --> 01:03:56,100
Instead of Neighbors in your 
community, we all pay taxes to 

1028
01:03:56,100 --> 01:03:58,600
you, why aren't you doing this 
work? 

1029
01:03:58,900 --> 01:04:02,300
It's to stop. 
I got so many calls the day that

1030
01:04:02,300 --> 01:04:05,000
they remember. 
I live in Canada, and I got so 

1031
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:07,900
many calls from media because of
the work that I do, the Say that

1032
01:04:07,900 --> 01:04:11,300
Derrick children's trial ended 
asking me, how do you feel? 

1033
01:04:11,300 --> 01:04:14,800
How do you feel? 
And I turned most of those down 

1034
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:20,700
because I just don't want to 
pretend like the the fight to 

1035
01:04:20,700 --> 01:04:23,400
abolish. 
The police turns on these 

1036
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:28,600
Sensational moments it turns on 
people doing the work every day 

1037
01:04:29,800 --> 01:04:34,400
and organizing and communities 
that are oppressed that people 

1038
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:37,500
don't really give the spotlight 
to sex worker. 

1039
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:42,200
Fighting against the police 
queer and trans people fighting 

1040
01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:46,100
against the police homeless 
people drug users, fighting 

1041
01:04:46,100 --> 01:04:48,400
against the police. 
You really want to build a 

1042
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:52,500
strong Coalition Michael. 
You, you align yourself with the

1043
01:04:52,500 --> 01:04:55,700
people who are facing the most 
hardship from the current system

1044
01:04:55,700 --> 01:04:58,500
and you ask them, what do you 
need and then you just keep 

1045
01:04:58,500 --> 01:05:02,000
doing that for years and years 
and years and you build some 

1046
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:05,400
power. 
That's what I see working and 

1047
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:08,700
that's what I want to be a part 
of Of, I don't want to have to 

1048
01:05:08,700 --> 01:05:12,700
like Twitter react as a way of 
hoping that things get better. 

1049
01:05:12,900 --> 01:05:16,100
Yo, I'm out there on Twitter. 
People know that about me but 

1050
01:05:16,100 --> 01:05:19,200
yeah, that's not where I do my 
most important work. 

1051
01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:23,100
My most important work is the 
things that people don't see. 

1052
01:05:23,100 --> 01:05:27,500
It's the calls and the 
late-night Communications and 

1053
01:05:27,500 --> 01:05:30,800
the organizing of things with 
people and the sharing of 

1054
01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:37,500
information with people and 
building Community to community 

1055
01:05:38,500 --> 01:05:41,500
And reinforcing that by being 
like, hey look, they did it over

1056
01:05:41,500 --> 01:05:44,700
here and they won and you look 
these guys gotta win on the cops

1057
01:05:44,700 --> 01:05:47,000
out of schools thing today. 
Isn't that awesome we can do it 

1058
01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:50,100
too. 
Hey look they divested 3 million

1059
01:05:50,100 --> 01:05:52,800
dollars from the police budget 
this year when they were going 

1060
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:54,800
to actually increase it. 
Is that what we want? 

1061
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:58,400
Ultimately know, we want the 
whole enchilada but we're going 

1062
01:05:58,400 --> 01:06:00,500
to celebrate our winds to and 
we're going to show what's 

1063
01:06:00,500 --> 01:06:02,300
possible when we organize 
locally. 

1064
01:06:03,500 --> 01:06:07,700
Wow, this is so powerful that 
you're saying in the importance 

1065
01:06:07,700 --> 01:06:10,600
of doing. 
This in our daily lives in, in 

1066
01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:14,600
our own personal lives, where we
live, where our kids, go to 

1067
01:06:14,600 --> 01:06:17,300
school, where we can have the 
most impact. 

1068
01:06:17,300 --> 01:06:22,400
I'm so glad you've said this, it
rarely gets said, and you know, 

1069
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:25,100
we're all we're good about 
calling for large demonstrations

1070
01:06:25,100 --> 01:06:27,900
and and let's all get out in the
street tonight and whatever. 

1071
01:06:28,100 --> 01:06:30,500
And that's important to, I'm not
dismissing that. 

1072
01:06:30,500 --> 01:06:36,800
But the local, the local part of
this and taking responsibility 

1073
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:41,700
for our Brothers and our 
sisters, our neighbors, it's I 

1074
01:06:41,700 --> 01:06:43,600
don't know. 
I thank you for saying that it 

1075
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:47,000
rarely gets said and I just want
to add one thing is the great, 

1076
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:51,500
the great irony of white liberal
Society is that it is black. 

1077
01:06:51,500 --> 01:06:55,200
People going out into the street
every day for months. 

1078
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:57,300
After George. 
Floyd was lynched. 

1079
01:06:57,400 --> 01:07:01,400
Yeah, it made the Chauvin trial,
something that white people even

1080
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:05,400
paid attention to write black 
people hadn't done that when 

1081
01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:08,100
people wouldn't have even paid 
attention to the trial. 

1082
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:11,000
I'll as meaning, maybe there 
will be change. 

1083
01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:16,000
Maybe there won't be like black 
people did that because they 

1084
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:20,100
were so horrified that this 
continues to happen and that we 

1085
01:07:20,100 --> 01:07:24,200
have to see the videos of it 
liberal societies, like, oh, the

1086
01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:28,300
police are killing people. 
I'd kind of like to see that so 

1087
01:07:28,300 --> 01:07:31,400
that I can decide for myself if 
the killing is good or bad. 

1088
01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:34,900
So, put a camera, that's that's 
their only. 

1089
01:07:34,900 --> 01:07:38,700
That's why I mean, they for 30 
or 40 years, we just won't Exact

1090
01:07:38,700 --> 01:07:41,800
same thing. 
So meanwhile black people are 

1091
01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:45,500
out there in the streets willing
to sacrifice their lives against

1092
01:07:45,500 --> 01:07:50,700
those very same police forces to
say enough and one minute 

1093
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:54,600
they're told that they're Thugs 
and criminals and looters and 

1094
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:57,200
the next minute everybody's 
covering the Derek Chauvin 

1095
01:07:57,200 --> 01:07:59,100
trial. 
I wonder why that happened 

1096
01:07:59,100 --> 01:08:02,700
because of the leadership and 
the tenacity of black 

1097
01:08:02,700 --> 01:08:05,500
organizing. 
And so that's why I say I don't 

1098
01:08:05,500 --> 01:08:08,100
care what white liberals think. 
We're leading the way. 

1099
01:08:08,200 --> 01:08:09,200
Hey. 
Anyway, aren't we? 

1100
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:11,800
We're showing the light. 
We're showing what needs to be 

1101
01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:14,900
done and what's necessary and 
sometimes even if they don't 

1102
01:08:14,900 --> 01:08:18,500
want to pay attention to us, the
struggle is so compelling that 

1103
01:08:18,600 --> 01:08:21,700
even they are forced to. 
So we as black people have to 

1104
01:08:21,700 --> 01:08:23,000
know that we're on the right 
path. 

1105
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:26,200
We have to trust our ancestors 
and the people who have written 

1106
01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:29,200
about these things and studied 
these things and organized 

1107
01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:32,300
around these things before us, 
we just have to have the 

1108
01:08:32,300 --> 01:08:36,100
conviction to keep going and to 
do anything. 

1109
01:08:36,100 --> 01:08:40,899
It takes to fight for Life 
because the police the prison 

1110
01:08:40,899 --> 01:08:47,100
system and Corporate America, 
and corporate Canada has 

1111
01:08:47,100 --> 01:08:52,200
demonstrated that it will do 
anything by any means necessary 

1112
01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:54,700
to maintain its control and 
dominance. 

1113
01:08:54,700 --> 01:08:58,399
So we have to be just as 
committed or any other side, 

1114
01:08:58,399 --> 01:09:03,500
right? 
Wow, this has been amazing and 

1115
01:09:03,500 --> 01:09:08,600
we've gone over a full hour here
and I just, I, I Could go on 

1116
01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:13,000
even longer and I hope that you 
could come back because I'm this

1117
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:15,500
is going to be a series every 
month. 

1118
01:09:16,300 --> 01:09:19,399
I'm not going to stop talking 
about it and I'm not going to 

1119
01:09:19,700 --> 01:09:23,200
certainly not be afraid to say 
certain words and redefine 

1120
01:09:23,200 --> 01:09:26,500
certain terms. 
And I'm asking people to come 

1121
01:09:26,500 --> 01:09:32,300
with me and listen to this and 
go to, as Desmond said websites 

1122
01:09:32,700 --> 01:09:37,300
like defund police dot org and 
you will see it laid out there 

1123
01:09:37,500 --> 01:09:42,899
and you Read this and you'll go,
that's a good idea. 

1124
01:09:43,700 --> 01:09:46,399
Why don't we do that? 
I know you will. 

1125
01:09:46,399 --> 01:09:48,200
If you have a good heart you 
will. 

1126
01:09:48,899 --> 01:09:53,000
But I want to thank those men. 
Call Our Guest here today on 

1127
01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:58,200
Rumble for helping us all, turn 
our heads a bit and rethink. 

1128
01:09:58,200 --> 01:10:04,800
This it's we're capable of doing
that my friends and Desmond. 

1129
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:07,500
I can't thank you enough for the
work, you're doing and keep 

1130
01:10:07,500 --> 01:10:09,900
doing it. 
And we'll stay in touch here 

1131
01:10:10,000 --> 01:10:12,400
with you and we'll celebrate 
those victories. 

1132
01:10:12,400 --> 01:10:15,500
Like you said, it's so important
even if they're small victory, 

1133
01:10:15,500 --> 01:10:20,900
sometimes it's important to do 
that because when one parent 

1134
01:10:20,900 --> 01:10:24,700
here is in one school, district 
that another group of parents in

1135
01:10:24,700 --> 01:10:29,000
another school district were 
successful, or when one town was

1136
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:34,100
able to take away the tank and 
the military Armament from the 

1137
01:10:34,100 --> 01:10:37,200
police that wasn't necessary 
because we don't want to live in

1138
01:10:37,200 --> 01:10:40,700
a police state. 
We already sort of know that we 

1139
01:10:40,700 --> 01:10:43,200
do we do. 
So at least can we, at least 

1140
01:10:43,200 --> 01:10:48,200
take the visual away, just to 
make us feel better for no? 

1141
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:49,900
We don't want people to feel 
better. 

1142
01:10:49,900 --> 01:10:53,900
I want us, we have to do the 
full monty here with this, and, 

1143
01:10:55,700 --> 01:11:01,300
and we're going to do it, but 
it's I thank you for the job. 

1144
01:11:01,300 --> 01:11:04,300
You've done, and are doing 
Desmond, and thank you. 

1145
01:11:04,300 --> 01:11:06,200
Thank you very much for the 
opportunity. 

1146
01:11:06,200 --> 01:11:08,000
Michael, and the change is 
happening. 

1147
01:11:08,100 --> 01:11:10,600
It's not going to happen. 
It is happening. 

1148
01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:13,000
It is happening. 
We need to expand on it. 

1149
01:11:13,300 --> 01:11:18,700
I'm with you and thank you and 
and we'll stay in touch. 

1150
01:11:19,700 --> 01:11:21,700
Wow. 
That was there was an incredible

1151
01:11:21,700 --> 01:11:24,800
conversation with Desmond, 
please share with others. 

1152
01:11:24,800 --> 01:11:28,100
This is such an important 
subject, my friends and we all 

1153
01:11:28,100 --> 01:11:30,000
have to get busy and do 
something about it. 

1154
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:32,000
There's a lot of good people 
working on this issue. 

1155
01:11:32,400 --> 01:11:36,300
Probably people locally find the
people in your town, your city 

1156
01:11:36,900 --> 01:11:41,600
and in Get active. 
Please do something about this. 

1157
01:11:42,200 --> 01:11:47,700
I want to give one sort of sad, 
but important update on 

1158
01:11:47,700 --> 01:11:50,500
something that was mentioned in 
the conversation. 

1159
01:11:50,500 --> 01:11:56,100
Something that happened here in 
the last 24 to 48 hours before I

1160
01:11:56,100 --> 01:11:59,000
do that. 
We've got one more entities were

1161
01:11:59,000 --> 01:12:01,900
all these Underwriters coming. 
Thank you to all the people 

1162
01:12:02,100 --> 01:12:04,800
underwriting Rumble, we're so 
grateful. 

1163
01:12:05,200 --> 01:12:08,000
I want to thank just one more 
before we close out today. 

1164
01:12:08,300 --> 01:12:10,100
I want to tell you about 
something that happened in the 

1165
01:12:10,108 --> 01:12:14,000
last day or so here. 
But first, a big shout out again

1166
01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:18,700
in a thank you to re kaun. 
So I'll say this, a lot of us 

1167
01:12:19,300 --> 01:12:20,500
are going to be on the move 
again. 

1168
01:12:20,500 --> 01:12:24,600
Hopefully is early as the summer
and one of the things I'll be 

1169
01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:29,400
taking on my trip back home will
be my Ray cons, these wireless 

1170
01:12:29,600 --> 01:12:33,200
earbuds that not only fit my 
ears. 

1171
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:36,400
Really well better than anything
I've tried before. 

1172
01:12:36,400 --> 01:12:39,700
But also just because the 
Quality of it is so cool. 

1173
01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:43,300
So whether you're listening to 
podcasts or music, maybe even 

1174
01:12:43,300 --> 01:12:47,400
meditating, a pair of these rake
on wireless earbuds provide the 

1175
01:12:47,400 --> 01:12:52,500
crisp powerful beats and half 
the price of these other premium

1176
01:12:52,900 --> 01:12:58,000
audio Brands and break-ins are 
also built to last for a 24-hour

1177
01:12:58,000 --> 01:12:59,900
battery life. 
Do so you can get through the 

1178
01:12:59,900 --> 01:13:02,500
day. 
The night, long road trip, and 

1179
01:13:02,500 --> 01:13:07,100
they don't need to be recharged.
So, rake on for those of you who

1180
01:13:07,100 --> 01:13:10,100
are Rumble, listeners, It is 
offering, 15% off all their 

1181
01:13:10,100 --> 01:13:12,600
products. 
You just have to go to buy rake 

1182
01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:18,900
on, that's be UI by rake, on.com
slash Rumble, going to put that 

1183
01:13:18,900 --> 01:13:22,900
in there and you'll get your 15%
of anything that you want to 

1184
01:13:22,900 --> 01:13:27,200
purchase. 
So by rake, on.com slash Rumble.

1185
01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:31,300
Tell them that you're grateful 
to for supporting Rumble. 

1186
01:13:45,300 --> 01:13:51,900
Well as you know I have spoken 
since the week of George Floyd's

1187
01:13:51,900 --> 01:13:56,400
murder over a year ago about the
brave young woman who stood on 

1188
01:13:56,400 --> 01:13:59,400
the curb and filmed his 
execution. 

1189
01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:04,900
Her name is you know is Darnell 
Frazier and you through this 

1190
01:14:04,900 --> 01:14:07,300
year. 
You know we've been in touch 

1191
01:14:07,300 --> 01:14:10,400
with her family. 
Offering our support in any way 

1192
01:14:10,400 --> 01:14:17,100
that we can, I suggested back at
the time that we as Academy 

1193
01:14:17,100 --> 01:14:21,700
members should recognize her for
making, the most important piece

1194
01:14:21,700 --> 01:14:24,100
of nonfiction. 
Film of the last year. 

1195
01:14:24,300 --> 01:14:28,000
Maybe of the last decade it 
galvanized the world. 

1196
01:14:28,300 --> 01:14:32,700
She showed us what happened, and
she did it with such courage. 

1197
01:14:33,500 --> 01:14:35,800
She has been recognized by 
others pain. 

1198
01:14:35,900 --> 01:14:43,000
America gave her a special Ward.
She got a shout out at the 

1199
01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:46,900
Oscars, but then when it came 
time for the Pulitzer prizes 

1200
01:14:46,900 --> 01:14:50,800
last month, they actually gave 
her a Pulitzer Prize Citation 

1201
01:14:52,000 --> 01:14:57,100
for her work of Journalism 
journalism. 

1202
01:14:57,900 --> 01:15:02,200
The informing of the rest of us 
about the truth. 

1203
01:15:03,200 --> 01:15:07,500
About what's going on when she 
took the stand, during the Derek

1204
01:15:07,500 --> 01:15:13,300
Chauvin trial, and she spoke 
about how every night it's hard 

1205
01:15:13,300 --> 01:15:17,400
for her to sleep. 
She says a prayer to George 

1206
01:15:17,400 --> 01:15:21,100
Floyd begging for his 
forgiveness as if she still 

1207
01:15:21,100 --> 01:15:23,800
feels that there's something 
else she could have done, should

1208
01:15:23,800 --> 01:15:29,500
have done to stop the killer cop
and how it still is so 

1209
01:15:29,500 --> 01:15:32,800
destructive to her because she 
has to think every day. 

1210
01:15:33,000 --> 01:15:36,200
Day about not just that this 
could happen to George Floyd as 

1211
01:15:36,200 --> 01:15:38,900
it did. 
But she said you remember on the

1212
01:15:38,900 --> 01:15:41,000
stand she said I'm not going. 
I don't have the quote right in 

1213
01:15:41,000 --> 01:15:46,600
front of me but she said that 
could have been my father That 

1214
01:15:46,600 --> 01:15:50,300
could have been my uncle. 
That could have been any of the 

1215
01:15:50,300 --> 01:15:58,100
black men in my life. 
It was so powerful and then, 

1216
01:15:58,100 --> 01:16:03,200
sadly. 
Stunningly on Tuesday night of 

1217
01:16:03,200 --> 01:16:11,900
this week just a day or so ago. 
Her uncle was killed by the 

1218
01:16:11,900 --> 01:16:17,300
Minneapolis Police Department. 
No need to the neck this time. 

1219
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:22,400
No. 
Lynching, just a out of control,

1220
01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:29,500
Reckless Police Department. 
Doing one of those crazy police 

1221
01:16:29,500 --> 01:16:33,800
chases that they do all across 
this country, trying to chase 

1222
01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:36,100
down some bad guy that they've 
got a catch. 

1223
01:16:37,400 --> 01:16:43,100
And of course, the cops Reckless
out of control. 

1224
01:16:44,400 --> 01:16:50,500
Drive their car right into 
Darnell of Fraser's, uncle and 

1225
01:16:50,500 --> 01:16:55,600
kill him. 
Innocent bystander on his way 

1226
01:16:55,600 --> 01:17:03,400
home. 
Dead tonight dead, because the 

1227
01:17:03,400 --> 01:17:07,000
police. 
And the way they police hasn't 

1228
01:17:07,000 --> 01:17:11,200
changed, they won't change 
unless we make them change. 

1229
01:17:11,800 --> 01:17:17,900
Now, you know, if some of you 
are saying well Mike, you know, 

1230
01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:21,600
I mean, it must have been a bad 
guy, cops are chasing them. 

1231
01:17:21,600 --> 01:17:23,300
So obviously, the guy was 
guilty. 

1232
01:17:24,400 --> 01:17:26,800
I had to catch him. 
Well, I ought to tell you 

1233
01:17:26,800 --> 01:17:29,600
something. 
I've never understood the police

1234
01:17:29,600 --> 01:17:31,500
chase. 
I mean, I guess it makes for 

1235
01:17:31,500 --> 01:17:37,800
good TV but why are all the rest
of us put in danger? 

1236
01:17:37,800 --> 01:17:39,900
And I mean in danger of Our 
Lives? 

1237
01:17:40,200 --> 01:17:45,400
Because they're trying to catch 
somebody who was speeding made a

1238
01:17:45,407 --> 01:17:52,700
wrong turn or they suspected. 
He had marijuana in Wyoming just

1239
01:17:52,700 --> 01:17:56,400
to go down the whole. 
Damn List of why they chase 

1240
01:17:56,400 --> 01:18:00,000
people in a car, a deadly 
weapon. 

1241
01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:03,800
I have said, for some time and 
maybe a lot of you won't agree 

1242
01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:06,800
with this, but I'm sorry, I 
don't believe the police should 

1243
01:18:06,900 --> 01:18:12,000
ever be. 
Chasing somebody at 70. 80 90 

1244
01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:15,200
miles an hour through a city 
ever. 

1245
01:18:15,200 --> 01:18:17,300
What is it? 
What is it? 

1246
01:18:17,300 --> 01:18:19,600
That they've got to get that's 
that valuable. 

1247
01:18:20,200 --> 01:18:24,000
Where would be okay to kill 
another innocent human being 

1248
01:18:24,100 --> 01:18:28,000
Being on the street or driving 
their car because they had that 

1249
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:31,200
get there man. 
We don't live in that world 

1250
01:18:31,200 --> 01:18:35,900
anymore. 
They can then we have devices. 

1251
01:18:35,900 --> 01:18:38,000
We have drones. 
We have things with license 

1252
01:18:38,000 --> 01:18:40,000
plates. 
They can just find out where he 

1253
01:18:40,000 --> 01:18:43,300
lives where he's going. 
Remember, when the police in 

1254
01:18:43,300 --> 01:18:46,100
Atlanta shot? 
The guy ran away in the wind. 

1255
01:18:46,100 --> 01:18:50,300
He's drive-through why they 
already had his license. 

1256
01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:54,000
They already had him pull over, 
they knew where he was going. 

1257
01:18:54,100 --> 01:18:58,100
I'll just go get them. 
What's the point of shooting 

1258
01:18:58,100 --> 01:19:02,200
them in the back? 
What's the point of running them

1259
01:19:02,200 --> 01:19:04,900
down? 
The whoever is trying to get 

1260
01:19:04,900 --> 01:19:07,100
away, they're not going to get 
away. 

1261
01:19:08,300 --> 01:19:11,600
We have so many surveillance 
cameras on so much. 

1262
01:19:11,800 --> 01:19:13,900
You can call ahead to other 
officers, you can put up 

1263
01:19:13,900 --> 01:19:18,600
roadblocks. 
Tell me one reason, why we need 

1264
01:19:18,600 --> 01:19:22,300
to conduct these crazy chases. 
Well what if he kidnapped a 

1265
01:19:22,300 --> 01:19:27,700
child, that's even worse, you're
making that person that person 

1266
01:19:27,700 --> 01:19:32,100
the kidnapper Drive 80 miles 
through the street because 

1267
01:19:32,100 --> 01:19:35,700
you're chasing with a child in 
the back, seat of the car. 

1268
01:19:36,300 --> 01:19:39,100
You're not saving the child, 
you're putting the child in 

1269
01:19:39,100 --> 01:19:43,400
danger of dying ice into Bales 
will before as I was trying to 

1270
01:19:43,400 --> 01:19:45,500
think all day, what is one good 
reason? 

1271
01:19:45,600 --> 01:19:52,100
Reason that justify the police 
driving like maniacs, like that 

1272
01:19:52,800 --> 01:19:56,900
to catch somebody. 
The only reason I can think of 

1273
01:19:56,900 --> 01:20:00,600
why the police should be on a 
chase to catch. 

1274
01:20:00,600 --> 01:20:05,400
Somebody is if the person 
they're chasing has won the 

1275
01:20:05,400 --> 01:20:09,600
Heisman Trophy and appeared in 
the Naked Gun movies. 

1276
01:20:10,000 --> 01:20:13,700
That's it. 
No, I'm sorry, I'm being friggin

1277
01:20:13,700 --> 01:20:18,100
facetious here. 
Not even then I said, actually, 

1278
01:20:18,100 --> 01:20:22,000
the I said, the only reason is 
if they the cops they were the 

1279
01:20:22,000 --> 01:20:28,300
radio dispatch said, the man in 
the white, Ford has stolen the 

1280
01:20:28,308 --> 01:20:31,900
cure for cancer. 
He just drove out of the Mayo 

1281
01:20:31,900 --> 01:20:35,300
Clinic where they've just 
discovered the cure for cancer 

1282
01:20:35,600 --> 01:20:37,900
and he has stolen the cure for 
cancer. 

1283
01:20:38,400 --> 01:20:41,600
You must go get him, okay? 
Because that's going to say like

1284
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:44,200
millions of lives and the guys 
just stolen it. 

1285
01:20:44,800 --> 01:20:48,300
You still shouldn't try to drive
in such a way that you're going 

1286
01:20:48,300 --> 01:20:50,900
to kill another human being. 
Well, you know what? 

1287
01:20:51,400 --> 01:20:55,400
At least we killed Grandma there
on the corner of Pine and Oak 

1288
01:20:55,400 --> 01:20:58,400
Street. 
That was sad, 89 years old. 

1289
01:20:58,400 --> 01:21:02,500
She lived a long life, she's 
dead now, but we got the cure 

1290
01:21:02,500 --> 01:21:05,900
for cancer. 
I don't know if you I can even 

1291
01:21:05,900 --> 01:21:09,300
just justify that, that it's 
okay to essentially murder 

1292
01:21:09,300 --> 01:21:12,600
somebody with your cop car 
accidentally. 

1293
01:21:14,100 --> 01:21:16,400
Because even that guy, you're 
going to catch that guy, you're 

1294
01:21:16,400 --> 01:21:20,600
going to find the car a drone in
the sky is going to find this 

1295
01:21:20,600 --> 01:21:22,800
guy and we'll have the cure for 
cancer. 

1296
01:21:22,800 --> 01:21:26,300
There's no reason my friends. 
I'm tired of I'm sorry to be 

1297
01:21:26,300 --> 01:21:28,200
just messing around with us but 
I'm so upset. 

1298
01:21:28,200 --> 01:21:34,900
I'm so upset that darn Ella had 
to lose the very uncle that she 

1299
01:21:34,900 --> 01:21:39,800
talked about on the witness 
stand at the Derek Chauvin trial

1300
01:21:40,000 --> 01:21:48,900
lost him because the police And 
to drive like crazed Maniacs, 

1301
01:21:48,900 --> 01:21:51,900
the streets of Minneapolis to 
get there, man. 

1302
01:21:52,700 --> 01:21:55,500
Not worth it. 
My friends never worth it. 

1303
01:21:55,700 --> 01:21:57,500
We have to start rethinking 
this. 

1304
01:21:58,700 --> 01:22:00,200
We have to start doing this 
differently. 

1305
01:22:00,200 --> 01:22:05,700
This is a small example. 
I'm just, I'm sorry I sound 

1306
01:22:05,800 --> 01:22:10,300
upset because I am upset and and
you know and I thank all of you 

1307
01:22:10,300 --> 01:22:12,800
and everybody in this country 
and around the world. 

1308
01:22:14,600 --> 01:22:17,500
For the recognition and the 
support that you've given during

1309
01:22:17,500 --> 01:22:21,200
Ella. 
I mean it's been great but we 

1310
01:22:21,200 --> 01:22:23,900
have to get to the root causes 
of these issues. 

1311
01:22:27,100 --> 01:22:31,700
All of these issues, the ones 
Desmond and I were discussing on

1312
01:22:31,700 --> 01:22:38,400
this episode. 
If you want to support Darnell, 

1313
01:22:38,400 --> 01:22:43,800
oh Frasier so good people, a 
number of months ago, set up a 

1314
01:22:43,800 --> 01:22:48,700
GoFundMe in her honor and I will
have a link in the description 

1315
01:22:48,700 --> 01:22:54,200
to this podcast to that GoFundMe
page for Darnell. 

1316
01:22:54,200 --> 01:22:57,300
Oh there's already over seven 
hundred thousand dollars has 

1317
01:22:57,300 --> 01:23:00,100
been raised for her. 
It's called the peace and 

1318
01:23:00,100 --> 01:23:04,900
healing for Darnell. 
The scars and the pain and the 

1319
01:23:04,900 --> 01:23:07,700
suffering that she may have to 
carry with her the rest of her 

1320
01:23:07,700 --> 01:23:10,900
life because she had the courage
to stand there with her, her 

1321
01:23:10,900 --> 01:23:15,000
camera and her phone and tell 
the rest of us in the world. 

1322
01:23:16,100 --> 01:23:20,200
Just how evil. 
And how evil in such a common in

1323
01:23:20,200 --> 01:23:23,200
Daily way. 
The people that are supposed to 

1324
01:23:23,200 --> 01:23:27,300
be protecting us. 
Have either a knee to the neck. 

1325
01:23:28,500 --> 01:23:33,800
Or their foot on the pedal 
driving fast through the city 

1326
01:23:34,600 --> 01:23:37,400
and killing. 
Killing her uncle. 

1327
01:23:38,800 --> 01:23:44,000
So sad and so wrong. 
That's about all I can deal with

1328
01:23:44,000 --> 01:23:46,300
today. 
I am so grateful that you listen

1329
01:23:46,300 --> 01:23:48,200
to this podcast. 
Please share it with others. 

1330
01:23:49,300 --> 01:23:53,100
Send me your feedback, send me 
any ideas things, you like me to

1331
01:23:53,100 --> 01:23:57,000
cover, just write me at Mike at 
Michael more.com. 

1332
01:23:57,000 --> 01:24:00,400
That's my email address. 
I read all the emails. 

1333
01:24:00,500 --> 01:24:02,700
Please send me an email, you can
send me a voicemail. 

1334
01:24:02,700 --> 01:24:04,800
There's a link on the 
description page. 

1335
01:24:04,800 --> 01:24:08,900
Also for that. 
And let's get busy. 

1336
01:24:09,000 --> 01:24:14,700
My friends so much to do all my 
love and appreciation to 

1337
01:24:14,700 --> 01:24:20,000
everyone of you listening to 
this and who share with me the 

1338
01:24:20,000 --> 01:24:23,900
intense commitment, to create a 
better world. 

1339
01:24:24,600 --> 01:24:29,000
This is my home or in this has 
been trouble. 

1340
01:24:30,000 --> 01:24:39,700
So, won't you help to sing these
songs of Freedom, cause all I 

1341
01:24:39,700 --> 01:24:50,300
ever had Redemption songs, 
Redemption songs. 

1342
01:24:51,900 --> 01:25:00,000
Redemption songs old Pirates? 
Yes they rob. 

1343
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:06,500
I sold. 
I to the merchant ships minutes 

1344
01:25:06,800 --> 01:25:12,700
after they took. 
I from a bottomless pit. 

1345
01:25:13,500 --> 01:25:16,600
How long shall they kill our 
prophets? 

1346
01:25:17,200 --> 01:25:24,600
While we stand aside and look, 
Yes, some say, it's just a part 

1347
01:25:24,600 --> 01:25:28,600
of the, we got to fulfill the 
book. 

1348
01:25:31,000 --> 01:25:40,100
Won't you help to sing these 
songs of Freedom, cause all I 

1349
01:25:40,100 --> 01:25:57,500
ever had Redemption songs, 
Redemption songs, the songs of 

1350
01:25:57,500 --> 01:26:02,500
freedom songs of freedom.