This is rum. Go with Michael Moore and I am
Michael Moore. My guest today is human rights
and environmental activists lawyer.
Stephen danziger, danziger is the lawyer who successfully
sued? The Chevron Oil Company on
behalf of the people of Ecuador, for deliberately, discharging 16
billion gallons of toxic waste in the Ecuadorian Amazon between
1964 in 1992, For this amazing legal Victory.
What has Steven danziger received?
Well, today is the 800th day of his house.
Arrest. After Chevron has turned the
legal tables on him, this is a bizarre orwellian story that is
happening right now, right here in the United States of America.
And I wanted all of you to hear this, please make sure you are
sitting in a stable chair. Or are walking on a flat surface
as you're listening to this because this is just blown my
mind and I need to not just have my mind blown by myself.
I need, I need your minds blown with me so we can figure out
what to do here. My friends and thanks again, to
all of you who joined us on Tuesday night for our very first
live stream. Q&A, we had a great time with it
and I'll, I'll Post a couple things from this is this is a
Q&A. I do with the members of my sub
stack become a member, if you don't become a member just sign
up for the free subscription to my my weekly letter and to this
podcast and be sent right to you in your email, go to Michael
more.com to do that. So before we bring on Stephen
let's give a shout out here to Rog underwriter anchor.
So Stephen, welcome to rumble here.
Thank you so much for being on my podcast today.
Yeah, thank you for having me Michael.
You know, I have followed this story of the lawsuit against
first technical, then Chevron bought Texaco.
This is back almost maybe a decade ago and and your
incredible victory in the Ecuadorian Courts for the
indigenous and very poor people of Ecuador, who has have had to
suffer for decades from the toxic waste pollution, Etc,
caused by the drilling and Mining of oil in Ecuador, for
these large American oil companies, and then you had this
decade or so, this incredible victory over nine billion
dollars that the Ecuadorian courts said that Chevron Texaco
Chevron had to pay to all the all the people who've been
harmed in Ecuador, and I think though anybody who remembers
this case and and Stephen as many of, you know, is as I said,
one of our our top human rights and environmental justice S
attorney's and activist. It just is one of those rare
victories that happened back then.
And then I and I think a lot of people sort of then just
probably forgot about it, you know, weren't paying much
attention and then all of a sudden recently thanks to other
people who've been covering this from Katie Helper and on her
podcast democracy now, and, and others, all of a sudden, I come
to find out a, my apologies for not knowing this that you are as
of today. This is day 800 of you being
under house, arrest for just to be clear.
And I'm going to let I'm going to turn this over to you because
I want your obviously the best person to tell the story but
these 800 days you have an ankle ankle bracelet on.
Yeah, I do. So I come to you today saving
completely at a loss, to explain to the people were Listening to
this at how in the United States of America and I I almost sound
like I'm being ironic here but because you can we now know, we
can no longer say how is it in the United States of America?
Well, we've learned now, everybody's got their
comeuppance. Everybody's got the lesson that,
yes, just practically anything. Awful can happen in the United
States of America, and your story.
It has messed with my head, to such an extent.
And I thought how How can I do this podcast in a way that will
be effective, that will help people understand to ask more
questions and to demand Justice here.
So Steven I'm just going to I'm just going to turn this over to
you and let you tell people why there is a monitoring device,
walked around your ankle. Why you have been inside your
house for eight? Hundred straight days, not
because of covid. Not because of personal choice.
But because under threat, of having the feds come and take
you away, What did you do? What what did you do to?
Where our justice system at least, two judges.
Now that I know of that are involved in putting you through,
what seems like a living hell, tell them what has happened and
then we'll take it from there. Thank you so much.
Michael for having me. I've been, you know, admired
your work for a number of years so it's a real honor.
I mean basically what happened is I got out of Law School in
1991 I wanted to do. Human rights law.
I was invited to go to Ecuador the Amazon of Ecuador, where I
had been told that there was a massive pollution problem caused
by Texaco went with some other lawyers.
Some scientists. We spent a week down there,
expected to see pollution saw Willy, what looked like an
apocalyptic nightmare with. Like, literally Lakes of oil on
the ground of the Jungle hundreds of open-air online,
waste pits that Texaco at abandoned and they had pipes on
the sides that We're running the cancer-causing oil waste into
rivers and streams that the indigenous groups were drinking
out of getting their drinking water out of their bathing and
fishing. There were massive health
problems and it was just shocking to me to witness this
with my own eyes. It was even more shocking to
learn. That this was not a oil spill,
it was a deliberate design by Texaco to pollute in order to
save money and to really play God.
With indigenous groups down in this region, as well as rural
communities. The upshot is over, you know,
the 50 or so years. Since this problem began to
manifest, thousands of people have died of cancer and other or
related diseases. It's very, it's not a well-known
situation. I think largely because of its
geographic isolation, and because, you know, the big media
in the United States is for the most part, ignored the story.
But, But we filed a lawsuit here in New York and 1993 against
Texaco, where Texaco does headquarters.
Were Texaco fought for 10 years, to move the case down to Ecuador
where they thought they could get it dismissed, they
succeeded. So, that took a big chunk of
time. A lot of people hurt and died.
During that time, we ended up going down to Ecuador where they
accepted jurisdiction. We fought for eight years.
Won a historic judgment in 2011. The trial was eight years
because Chevron tried to obstruct it and It constantly,
because they were scared of the evidence, the evidence against
him was overwhelming. There were 105 technical
evidentiary report. 64,000 chemical, sampling results that
all pointed to massive and probably unprecedented oil,
pollution in the world. You know, it's called the Amazon
Chernobyl and the suffering has been intense, Chevron bought
Texaco in 2001 so they Merited. This problem the company had
left Ecuador in 1992 and all the waste was, is still.
There you go down there today and see Olympic-sized kind of
pools of oil all over the place. The Judgment that we won was
affirmed by six. Different appellate courts, 28
appellate judges, the Supreme Court's of Ecuador and Canada,
Chevron had promised us courts to comply with the judgment to
pay. As a condition of moving down,
moving the case out of the United States to Ecuador, they
immediately went back on their word, they threatened, the
indigenous peoples, with what they called, a lifetime of
litigation if they didn't drop the case.
This is after the indigenous groups had one and they then
adopted a campaign to demonize the lawyers, primarily me being,
I was instrumental in on the legal team, but hardly alone
there were several lawyers but because I live in New York, And
I began to become sort of the public face of the legal team.
They targeted me with this demonization campaign and they
have since been harassing me through a federal judge here in
New York named Louis Kaplan, who's a former tobacco lawyer
for about the last ten years, they first sued me literally 460
billion dollars in Damages. They sued me personally I'm a
human rights lawyer, I live in a small apartment in Manhattan.
I'm not a person of great means And they sued me for the most
money. Anybody has been sued for in
American history when I didn't quit and that didn't work.
They sued me under the racketeering statute.
Me and all of the 47 named villagers in Ecuador who were on
the lawsuit claiming that the whole case was a conspiracy to
extort money from them and Kaplan denied.
Me a jury in this civil RICO case he let Chevron bring up a
witness from Ecuador whom they I paid a bunch of money to million
plus dollars. They coach them for 53 days, the
Chevron lawyers and he came in and court and lied about me,
claimed to have been in a meeting where I approve, the
bribe of a trial judge in Ecuador, which was completely
Preposterous and false. There was no evidence to support
it and again, the courts down there had rejected this
evidence, but Kaplan this former tobacco lawyer found me liable
for fraud on the Judgment which enabled Chevron then to go after
For me, personally, they got Kaplan to impose, literally
millions, and millions, and millions of dollars of court
costs, and fines on me to reimburse them for their legal
fees used to create this fake case against me that essentially
white me out. They took money out of my bank
accounts. They took our life savings, I'm
married with a young son and when they sought my computer and
cellphone and Kaplan ordered it, I was very I open with Kaplan
and said, you know, I'm going to appeal this order because it,
you know, it contains privileged information that's protected by
the law and Chevron does not have a right to know our
internal deliberations or any of this privileged information.
And so he held me in civil contempt of court, which is what
I wanted. So I can get an appeal of this
order, this unprecedented order, and while I was appealing, the
law for - of his order that I turn over my confidential
information to Chevron, he Charging with criminal contempt
of court for appealing. While his order was on appeal
again unprecedented, he took his charge to the US attorney's
office here in Manhattan that promptly rejected it and
declined to prosecute me. He didn't quit.
He appointed a private Law Firm to prosecute me without
disclosing the fact that the law firm by the night goes by the
name of Seward. And Kissel had Chevron is a
Client he then did something even more outrageous rather than
the case, being assigned through the normal, random assignment
process, you pointed, the judge himself Loretta.
Preska Prescott is a leader of the Federalist society that is
you know, pro-business right-wing Legal Group Chevron
being a major donor. So both the prosecutor from
Chevron Law Firm, the judge had strong ties to Chevron Prescott
at the Quest to the Chevron lawyer Prosecuting me promptly,
lock me up as a Flight Risk, which is completely
Preposterous. Put an ankle bracelet on me and
put me in my home. On August 6, 2019.
Now, 800 days ago. Now, let me, explain for some
perspective, how crazy this is, in the history of the United
States in the context of criminal contempt, which happens
when judges get angry at lawyers and feel like they're disobeying
their orders. The entire history of the
federal court in New York, which began in 1789, the longest
sentence ever. Given a lawyer convicted of my
level of offense is 90 days of Home confinement.
No one's even spent a day in jail, Prescott, who locked me
up, as a supposed risk of flight has now kept me at home
confinement, you know, more than eight times that amount 800
days. And on top of that, she is
recently To me to serve a six-month prison sentence, which
is the maximum sentence one can give on a misdemeanor.
But again, no one's ever spend even a day in jail.
So this is clearly in my view, retaliation by Chevron and the
Chevron connected, you know, judges and the Chevron connected
prosecutor for my successful work.
Helping the indigenous peoples in rural communities down in
Ecuador, hold Chevron accountable.
So I'm suffering, it's Complicated.
But we're strong, and we're resilient and we're going to
we're fighting through this. And I'm getting a huge amount of
support that this is never been seen before in the United States
of America. And let me be very, very clear.
This is a corporate prosecution. I've never seen a corporate
prosecution in America. I mean, I've seen a lot of
corporate control, a lot of corporate influence over our
institutions, but I've never seen a Direct Corporate criminal
prosecution, but that's what's happening to me.
I believe this issue goes well beyond me.
I think it's a part of a new playbook.
By the fossil fuel industry to use against activists and
lawyers and others who are successful in their advocacy.
And they're trying to use my case you know as a weapon to
intimidate other lawyers and Advocates and do not doing this
critically important environmental justice work, that
not only is necessary to hold major polluters accountable but
I believe is also necessary to save our planet.
If anyone is just tuned in or you had this podcast on pause
and now you've come back into the room at some Point here,
this did start to sound like a work of fiction like, well, come
on. First of all, let's just go back
to what you said. I heard you said the words
private. Prosecutor.
I've never heard those words in the United States of America in
my life, probably have prosecutors.
We have County Prosecutors, we have DA's, we have Federal
prosecutors. There, are there either elected.
The County Prosecutors often are elected.
The federal prosecutors are appointed They have to get
approved by the Senate. So we don't have a system of
courts that are owned and run by private corporations.
And yet your story and I have read everything.
I've read everything keeps referring to the private
prosecution of you and I'm thinking, come on what I do.
Maybe they're just trying to simplify the story because we're
civilians. We don't know the law, but
Steven explain to people what You meant when five minutes ago
you said that you were faced with a private prosecutor and a
private prosecution within our very public Judicial System
funded and paid for by the taxpayers.
Not by corporations. I have not been convicted in a
fair trial. I've never been charged with a
crime by a prosecutor, but the judge charged me and had his
friend judge convict me without a jury.
So, technically, I've been convicted, I don't think it was
a fair trial, and I'm appealing in this country, right?
Yeah. And when you say his friend, the
other judge, why was there not at why was there not a jury?
Well. Okay, so you know, this is
something I've never seen before, and I've been practicing
law for, you know, almost 30 years.
I wish I did not know this could happen and I'm shocked.
It has happened. And I believe it's
unprecedented. And I believe is illegal.
And I believe, I will win my appeal.
But I want to tell you how it's Happened.
So people can understand that little tricks that the judges
can employ to put one in this position if they're threatening
enough. And in my case, there is a very
obscure Federal rule in the courts that allows a judge to
appoint a private prosecutor for contempt charges in the rare
cases. When there's some sort of
conflict of interest with the US attorney's office, or there's
not enough resources or whatever.
And all of our research, we've only seen this Used maybe, you
know, five times in the last several decades, since it came
into existence and every time it was used, the person appointed
was a neutral person, was a former Federal prosecutor who
took his or her responsibilities seriously.
So it's extraordinarily rare to see this, but what's never
happened? It has is happening.
Now, in my case is the person appointed by the judge is not
neutral. The person appointed works for
chef Imran and judge Kaplan. Essentially turned over our
public prosecutorial apparatus to a private Corporation, to
prosecute, its main critic and deprive him of his Liberty.
You know, not just for a day or a week but now of, you know,
over two years and it's just inappropriate and unprecedented
and even scarier is the Appellate Court here in New York
has not stopped it. I've gone up there twice.
And they just sort of say, well, let's let it play out and you
can bring your appeal later. So, that's how it happened.
But again, you know, my lawyers and I have extremely well,
regarded lawyers, Marty, Garbus among them lawyers that sucker
man, Spader down in DC and Ron Kuby and Rick.
I'm at the lawyers who've looked at those who have helped me,
John kakkar, can't believe it and they all are in agreement
that it's patently illegal. But but you know the whole
process is so slow that they're essentially getting away with
punishing me without the conviction being reviewed by the
Appellate Court, and the goal now by Prescott is to put me in
prison for six months and make me serve the entirety of my
supposed sentence before the Appellate Court can rule on the
case and will like and I think they'll exonerate me whether at
least there's a good chance but she wants me to serve my whole
sentence for a crime. I didn't commit and it's all
part of it. I think an abuse of power.
I think it's a game to to make me suffer in retaliation.
For the work I did to hold a major American Oil Company
accountable for the poisoning of the Amazon rainforest and the
Damage that's caused a thousands of indigenous peoples.
I mean, they just don't like it and they don't want lawyers.
Doing this work and they want to use me and use the harm.
They can cause me as an example to discourage people from doing
this work. So, when this judge Kaplan,
turned the case, Rover, as you said to a private Corporation, I
mean, to a law firm. I mean to a law firm that that
works for Chevron and works for a lot of big oil companies.
I mean, it's really a fossil fuel industry law and this Law
Firm then became the prosecutor. Yes, a private Law Firm became
became a public prosecutor. They are billing, exorbitant
amounts of money, over a million dollars, so far to taxpayers for
their work. When the Normal public.
Secure the professional prosecutor's office here in New
York and when no matter what, you think of the sdn, why, you
know the lawyers there I have found to be professional and
federal prosecutors the southern district of New York and they
refused. They saw cappers charges they
said we're not doing it which is an appropriate decision, you
know. So that one judge Kaplan said,
well to hell with you federal government lawyers, I'm I'm
going to appoint private lawyers and make them public.
Alec and they're going to press this case.
Yes. Because, you know, when a
professional prosecutor's office reviews and case and decides not
to bring charges, that's their discretion.
It's based on their professional judgment, that should be
respected. Okay.
At that point. He should never have kept it
going by appointing a private law firm and really abusing this
very narrow rule to a point. A private Law Firm not to
prosecute me Michael, but I believe to persecute me.
Well, that's what it sounds like on this end.
I mean Stephen, let me just let me get this clear because I'm
telling you right now. People are listening to this and
going what this is so bizarre. What is this poor man trapped
in. So this, this judge Kaplan, is
he a federal judge? He's a federal judge appointed
by Bill Clinton in the first Clinton term.
Okay, so he then decides well, the federal, the public
prosecutors New York decided there, they don't want to pursue
this case. So he's hell-bent on wanting to
pursue it. He hires this private Law Firm
which apparently there was some rule that allows him to do that.
I've never heard of it and then you don't know what was the
reason you didn't get a jury trial.
Did you try to do turndown having a jury?
No, no, I wanted a jury. I ask you when multiple times,
let me explain how it works. And, again, this is another
trick employed by are some judges in our criminal justice
system, I think to do Denied due process.
Look, the US Constitution, clearly states, that, if you're
charged with a crime, you're entitled to a jury of your
peers. Over time, there's been like
this custom, where if a judge agrees, to limit your sentence
to six months or less, you don't get a jury.
So, what Fresca and Kaplan did in this case is, even though
they charge you with criminal contempt.
And even though, I believe, I was entitled to a jury, Prescott
says, okay after locking you up for over two years, Pretrial.
I'll limit your sentenced to six months.
Sorry, buddy. You can't get a jury in the
criminal case. So the very judge who had
already ruled, I was a flight risk and ruled, I was flouting
court orders which was not true. Same judge you'd lock me up for
over two years became my fact finder which is really
frightening. So naturally she found me
guilty. Obviously to justify the fact
she'd already lock me up for two years because I think what's
really driving. This is that desire to
criminalize environmental advocacy.
I mean that's what really this is criminalized legitimate
advocacy and that's what they're doing to me and a jury would
never buy it. They know a jury would never buy
this Ridiculousness so they just maneuver through the system.
It's the second time I've been denied a jury in these types of
cases, brought by Kaplan and Prescott.
Can I just stop you right here again?
Because I can feel the audience listening to this.
They're all out there already. They've already been shaking
their heads enough to where they're going to need physical
therapy tomorrow. You just said now, for the
second time, not only that, you didn't get a jury trial and you
wanted one and were denied it, that this has happened twice to
you. In this, in this caucus process,
I have never heard and boy and I can, I can go through the list
of everything, this country of how, what it's done to people,
whether It's our fellow Americans or whether it's seven
children in a white. Toyota in Kabul with a drone,
blowing them up and killing them.
I know exactly what this government is capable of, so in
and that's why I'm sure you decided to enter this kind of
law, human rights, environmental, justice, Etc.
But friends were listening to this right now.
If you ever heard of somebody say, I couldn't get a jury
trial. Did you know that there's this
rule that that if the, if the judge agrees, Is that the
sentence won't be more than 6 months, then poof, there goes
your right to a jury trial. I've never heard of this, I'm
sorry to be. So, gobsmacked here, when you're
in the middle of telling your story, but I just, you
understand why those of us who just are civilians, were not in
the legal system. Cannot we cannot hear these
words in the United States of America.
I was not allowed a jury trial or that that I was then put in
Tried by a private prosecutor. I saw a storyline on that.
CBS show The Good the good fight.
I saw a story line like this, but I know that that's fiction.
This is this is real. I'm talking to you right now.
You are what 20 30 blocks from me, you're under house arrest.
This is day. 800, as you told me just before we went on here,
mmm, and you're under house arrest because this is
supposedly the pre-trial of Of what, what's the next trial
supposed to be well, right now, there's no other trial schedule
just to be very clear. When she, when judge press
Coulda died, me a jury agreed to limit the sentenced to six
months. She conducted a quote-unquote
trial. Last May that lasted five days
where I was represented by Ron Kuby and Marty Garbus but it
was, it was a charade. I mean the prosecutor, the
Chevron, prosecutor came in and and called two main Witnesses.
They were both Chevron. Lawyers.
The judge was had Financial ties to Chevron be her leadership in
the Chevron funded Federalist society.
As I said, the prosecutor work for a Chevron Law Firm, it was a
Chevron financed Shimmer controlled criminal trial
without a jury and we didn't put on a defense.
I mean, the judge ruled I couldn't testify and tell my
story as to why I had legal and ethical grounds, not to turn
over my computer to Chevron and why I appealed that order which
was Just admit legal, ethical, according to experts, and
according to practice in this country, she wouldn't let me
defend myself. So we didn't put up a defense
and we've gone right into the appeal, which we've started to
file. But in the meantime and this is
the ultimate trick that she's trying to employ.
She's trying to get me to serve my entire six-month sentence
after this non-jury trial where she convicted me after not
letting me defend myself or put in evidence before the appeals
court can rule. Rollin again, we believe there's
a very good chance, the appeals court will reverse or conviction
and exonerate me, which is why she's so desperate to force me
to serve my sentence. I mean, Michael is almost
unheard of in this country for anyone convicted of a
misdemeanor with no criminal record.
That's me to serve one day in jail.
And this isn't any misdemeanor. It's what's called a petty
offense is the most minor kind of misdemeanor and the federal
system. You don't serve jail time.
So the fact she's giving me the maximum sentence.
This souped-up kind of thing where she denied me, a jury,
just shows the degree of animus that I believe Kaplan and press
can Chevron have toward me and they want to punish the hell out
of me. Make me suffer in retaliation
for winning the case down in Ecuador, but right now, the
issue is do. I have to go to jail during the
appeal or coming? Wait for the appeal to be to
happen, and to be resolved before, you know, before I
don't, what is the misdemeanor you've been convicted of
criminal? Contempt of court, which was
Kaplan, just making up a crime. It's there's no crime like this
in a law. It's basically a judge driven
Authority. We hear a lawyer.
A lawyer is given a contempt of court citation.
At least those of us who watch enough.
Courtroom dramas, it's because the lawyer has been badly
misbehaving in court, standing up objecting to much, not
shutting up, the judge gets mad, and then and says, Hold you in
contempt of court. That's my right that if there is
a contempt of court against a lawyer, it's because the warrior
has maybe lost his or her cool. And and the only way the judge
can can get them to calm down is to threat until the lock him up
for a night or a day or whatever.
Am I watching too much TV or is it is one?
That is one feature of one type of content but that's not what I
did. What cap?
And did to me as he ordered me to basically violate my ethical
duties to my clients by turnt. You know, that is the indigenous
peoples of Ecuador who are very vulnerable and suffering.
Tremendously by ordering me to turn over my computer and all of
their privileged information to Chevron.
So, Chevron could essentially know everything they were doing
know, their legal strategy, know where they live and entity, and
I was obligated by law, as I saw it by ethical guidelines, not to
do that. Now, I am a man or the rule of
law. I don't just ignore court
orders. I've complied with thousands of
court orders in my career. I mean, this has never happened
to me, but I believe Kaplan, put me in this position.
Deliberately to make me choose between complying with his
unlawful order and complying with my ethical duties to my
clients. And I was very open with him.
And I said, sir, I cannot turn over the computer without a
ruling from the Appellate Court. And as I said, asked him to hold
me in, what's called civil contempt, which is a civil
punishment. Judgment, not a criminal punnet,
not a jail or anything, and he finally did that, and I appealed
and that enabled me to appeal his order, the Appellate Court.
And again, while it was on appeal, he charged me with
criminal contempt of court, and it was his decision and his
decision alone. Oh, I happen to think that
judges should not have that kind of power that it has to be
approved by a normal Federal prosecutor.
And, you know, not to go back to the civics or anything.
But in our country, and all rule of law countries.
Crimes are charged by the executive branch by a They're
not charge a judge's. Okay, judges, preside over the
cases, they don't charge the crimes in this case, Kaplan,
essentially served as my prosecutor.
My grand, jury, my regular jury my fact-finder and now my
executioner. I mean, it's like all
Consolidated in the judicial branch and again, I just, it's
just obviously unconstitutional. Did you ever turn over your
laptop or your phone or whatever so that they could glean the
information they wanted from? These devices.
No, I have not yet and I say yet because I'm more than willing to
as long as a protocol could be put in place that protects
privileged information. I mean Chevron.
He had ordered Chevron to be able to use any search term.
They wanted to look at anything on my computer.
I mean, it was, it was not a proper protocol and it would
have forced me to violate my ethical duties to my clients.
So, you know, I look forward to the day when we can resolve this
by Negotiating a protocol that protects Privileges and is
consistent with the law. But I've never said, I would
never turn over my computer that hasn't happened yet, so I'm not
in a position to turn it over, but I hope to be at some point.
But, you know, I don't think they really want my computer.
I think what they want is to have me locked up in jail and
they're using, you know, the computer as a pretext to do so
well. Yes.
And and, and they don't even in some sense.
Want just, you locked up in the jail, what they want.
Is you as An example, that's why they haven't done this under the
cloak of secrecy and darkness that you weren't sent off to a
black site where, you know, everybody had hoods on their
heads. No, they this this is to send a
message one. I hate to be sending out via
this podcast to anybody else out there who would dare to take on
these oil companies to do it in the way that you've done it to
protect your His clients by not allowing their information to be
had by the oil company and and willing to actually be under
house arrest for over two years and and your I assume they've
disbarred you by now. Right, that's another incredible
thing. They just bore me without even
giving me a hearing where I could present.
Show evidence. Okay, so you can't make a
living, this should send a chill down the spine of any Young
lawyer. And a young activist that if you
want to end up like this guy, and this and Stephen Downes
occur is someone who play by the rules, someone who went to
Harvard. Some of this is you aren't just
some somebody that they could just, you know, Finding kick to
the curb, you're one of our top environmental.
Lawyers are top human rights lawyers, and and this case is as
is so outrageous. That the United Nations, Human
Rights Commission has come to your side.
Tell us about that, that I, this is just stunning that.
Now we have the UN and Amnesty International saying that that
there is a crime being committed against you by this so-called
democracy. Yeah, I mean it's extraordinary
isn't it an embarrassing? I shall ask for our country.
I mean basically United Nations has various as you know, No, you
know, human rights bodies and working groups, one of which is
called the working group on arbitrary, detention where
lawyers from Amnesty International filed a petition
about my case last January. And a few weeks ago, they ruled
that the entire my entire detention at home was arbitrary
was a deprivation of my Liberty in violation of international
law. And they ordered the US
government to have me released into.
Pay me compensation for the harm caused to me and my family.
Like and this came down about 100 a week or so.
Before judge, press Co sentence me to the six months and we
brought it to her attention. Our position is the government
through her. She's obviously a government
official is obligated to comply with this order and of course,
she completely ignored it. You know, there's this whole
view in the Federalist Society World.
These pro-business, judges that international law doesn't apply
to the United States and she needed the decision with nothing
but hostility. But it's an incredibly important
decision. I urge people to read it.
It's on our website. It was it was signed by five,
highly esteemed International jurists, who reviewed the record
or what they were doing to me and concluded that it was a
violation of international law and I assure you Michael that if
this kind of thing was happening in another country that was not
friendly to the United States a country like maybe you know
Russia or China or turkey, you know, the Congress persons in
the state department country like Iraq for example would be,
I mean Iran, I'm sorry would be condemning, it may be all over
the all over it and they're just totally ignoring it and it's
unfortunate. But it's a powerful powerful
decision that gives me enormous support and confidence.
You know, the thing is and that chill that thing.
That what they're using you for which is to shut all the rest of
us up. So that Chevron and place that
people like that can't come after us.
You know, it makes it more incumbent upon all of us to
speak out to go after them. Like we've never gone after them
before to get you out of house, arrest to end this madness, with
your, this private prosecution of you with a private, these
private corporate attorneys that are hired by this judge who has
this connection to Chevron itself.
One of your attorneys. I haven't Look at him about your
case, but I will now because he used to be my attorney more than
a decade ago. He is Martin, Garbus is who I'm
referred referring to his career, began back in the 50s,
early 60s defending. Lenny Bruce the comedian because
he was constantly being arrested for telling off-color jokes in
comedy clubs. And what seriously my know young
people are What? Yeah?
Yes, they you sir arrest Comedians and put them in jail
for saying bad words. But especially when the comedian
started, cutting too close. To the Bone politically, what
was going on, our society. That's when they got in big
trouble and Martin Garbus defended, Lenny Bruce.
And with me, the Bush Administration had sent me a
official notice that they were investigating press.
Me for going to Cuba because I took my camera crew to Cuba to
film how the Cubans do their healthcare system for my film
sicko and they were upset at me for that.
And they were starting the proceedings to arrest me and
prosecute me, and so mr. Jarvis came in and and to hear
that, after all these years that he's still doing this and
helping you, so happy to hear that.
And I know that he would not take any Case that that didn't
have a righteous cause which the certainly seems to be in.
How are you? The obvious question people are
wondering. I mean, I guess we all know
we've all been in their various quarantines and lockdowns and
whatever. So and funny after, you know,
after area after six months of being in my own lockdown I would
I just started joking to people that?
Well, I'm good now. I know I could survive house
arrest. Not so funny right now.
But here you are, it's not your choice to not walk, outside your
door, you have the sub monitoring device on you.
So how are you holding up and and what is your what what sort
of glimmers of hope you have that this is going to come to an
end and you're in the torture of you is going to stop.
Well thank you for asking that. You know how am I doing?
I mean it's in tell the truth, tell the truth.
I mean I know it's been a true Terrible ordeal mostly for my my
son who had just started his third straight year in school
without his dad being free and his dad wearing an ankle
bracelet. It's an ankle bracelet that I
wear 24/7. I never take off.
I have to sleep with it and eat with it and bathed with it, and
it beeps at night, sometimes and wakes us up when the battery
runs low. It's a reminder that the state
is always Shackled to your body and monitoring your every
movement. Around your own apartment.
I can't go down to the lobby without Court permission, even
to get the mail. Everything is a Fanta lies,
meaning, like for me to get out of the house, for these very
limited things, I can do like legal meetings.
I have to get 48 Hours Advance permission from a court officer
who, you know, checks the address and all that kind of
stuff. You can't go to dinner.
You can't, you know, the weather's, nice.
You can't go take a run with your kid can Can't, you know, do
anything, you know. So sit here and I think it's
designed to drive me crazy. I do think I am resilient enough
to get through it or at least I am so far, but it's make no
mistake about it, it's not easy, it's tough but it's, you know, I
do know Michael. That is designed to drive me
crazy and I refuse to let that happen.
So, you know, we I hope my wife and I, we were married 15 years.
We decided when these attacks started 10 years ago, remember I
said I got sued for 60 billion dollars.
We looked at each other, like what the f is happening to our
lives. And I said, whatever happens.
We cannot let a trauma turn into a pathology, you know, we have a
kid and we said what we're going to try to deal with this
professionally and keep our internal life, as you know, No,
as sort of normal quote-unquote normal as possible.
Which we were able to do for a number of years until they lock
me up. We still are committed to
creating some degree of Happiness, everyday in the four
walls of our home despite the situation but it is you know,
it's just there's just no end in sight and it's terrifying
honestly it's terrifying to know that.
The very people IE judges the very institutions.
I mean courts is a Lying to protect our rights or the ones
being used as instruments by Chevron to destroy them.
And that to me is the most terrifying thing about this
experience. I simply don't know where to
turn anymore. So what do we do?
What do we, what can we do to help you?
Well, I think there's a couple of things.
I mean, one is you gotta learn about it and spread the word.
We have a website called free donziger.com, where you can go
and get articles and learn more and keep up with events, WE Post
articles and stuff. You can also donate to our legal
defense fund. It's expensive To pay all these
lawyers to protect me against this monster company.
We have a lot of people donate, small amounts, whatever you can
do. Please do, you can find the
Donate button on our website. Again it free donziger.com and
then we asked people to engage in actions.
For example, one of the actions were asking people to do is to
call Merrick Garland, the attorney general and demand that
the doj take back this private Chevron prosecution and take it
over as the government. And at that point dismiss the
case or if not dismiss it at least review it, but it is just
wrong on every level for there to be a corporate prosecution of
an activist in the United States or any rule of law country.
So we're asking people to pressure, Merrick Garland to
take over the case. And we're also asking people to
pressure their congressperson to pressure Garland, to review the
case and to take it back. You know, we're fortunate enough
to have six Congress persons led by By Jim McGovern and, and
Jamie Raskin, and Alexandria, acacio, Cortez and Cory Bush
Rasheeda to leave. And Jamal Bowman, they signed a
letter to the attorney general. Last April demanding, he take
over the case and he ignored them.
I don't think that's right. And you know, this also extends
to Joe bide, I mean, Joe Biden appointed Merrick, Garland, and
Joe Biden, you know, to you know, really walk the walk on
the climate issue. You know.
It's just you cannot have a Rights lawyers who are doing the
Frontline work to say, the planet locked up in the United
States of America. So this implicates, Joe, Biden,
implicates Kamala Harris, and implicates our Congress and it
implicates our government. And I need more people to speak
out and that obviously is going to come from pressure from
citizens like the people listening to this podcast and
you know, so the more you can do the more it can help me and you
know, you can learn more about the actions at the website
again, its freedom 10.com and downs.
Occur is a spelled d0 n as in Don zi ji, ER, so while one word
danziger the on0 ige are free down cigar.com, I will have a
link here on whatever platform you're listening to this
podcast, it'll be on our page here.
There will be a link and you can go right to the site.
I'll also put a link I'll put mirror Airlines the Attorney
General's phone number and Email on here so that you can call and
write him and demand, the release of this true patriot who
has stood, not just for justice and in for a better Earth here
in this country so many years, dedicated to the people of
Ecuador who are not on anybody's radar and you gave all those
years of your life for that. And you one you want an if they
paid a dime of what they were ordered to pay.
A a Chevron know, they have not been a gimbal of Ecuador, the
judgments been affirmed. They have not paid a penny to
the people of Ecuador which is outraged and But ultimately we
believe we have lawyers fighting to enforce the Judgment against
their assets and other countries and we believe they will be
forced to pay in and you actually you've sort of said
that you want Garland you want the Department of Justice go
like go how have you put this at?
You've dared them to Look, I don't want to be prosecuted
obviously but I bet if I'm going to be prosecuted.
I want the doj to prosecute me, not Chevron.
And I'm probably the only lawyer ever in the u.s. to basically be
begging the Department of Justice to prosecute him or her
from, that's my position. Please prosecute me.
If you're listening attorney general you know look at this
case and please do not let Chevron prosecute me and lock me
up like this. It's just not right, it's not
Not consistent with our constitution or, or our laws.
So I'm asking you to prosecute me.
And as part of that prosecution, use your discretion and
hopefully you'll see that these charges are baseless and the
case should be dismissed. But, you know, you got to
intervene and prevent this private prosecution from
continuing any further. And you also, I believe need to
comply with the United Nations, working group decision and, and
make sure that I'm released because my detention is Is
violation of international law. Oh, man.
I'm so sorry. You know, I pay my taxes and so
I'm paying for your house incarceration.
Well, you know, I want to say this about money, if I may.
Yeah, the process estimate. The prosecution of Me by Chevron
cost taxpayers to three million dollars.
At least, it's just the fees for the private Chevron Law Firm.
You know, their grifters. They were billing tax.
Spay errs to prosecute me as Chevron.
In addition to all the staff time and the use of the
courtroom and has gone on for two and a half years.
Now, all the legal work, I mean in, this is a misdemeanor.
Do you know how much money a defense lawyer?
Who's assigned by the court to represent a misdemeanant
defendant gets paid? It's a flat in New York.
It's a flat rate of 4,000 dollars.
Okay, I'm a misdemeanor defendant and they have spent
millions of dollars on this. Because it's a retaliation case
and it's the taxpayers are subsidizing.
My prosecution a my detention, you know, not because it's in
the public interest obviously. But to help Chevron extinguish
the voice of an important lawyer or try to at least.
I mean, obviously, I'm still talking and I will talk for as
long as I'm out in my house even though I'm detain.
But this is taxpayer-funded to an enormous degree.
Which is another aspect that I think is very Pensive.
Wow, just just to make the point.
Again, we're talking about a misdemeanor under house, arrest
for 800 days, a contempt of court citation.
Just essentially, with the power that judges have just made up by
this judge, who is a chief advisor to the Federalist
Society. That's the right wing group.
That is, it was advising Trump. It's where we got our last
three, justices to the Supreme Court from, you know, I know to
some Listen, as you think, well, maybe this is just kind of a
small case, it's not the big stuff that we, that's facing the
Supreme Court, but my friends is, I don't even need to say
this to you. If you're already listening to
this podcast, you know, that if we let them get away doing this
to just one person, we're all in trouble, we're all under threat.
And the fact that you had to, on this podcast, some of you many
of you here, for the first time, things like, no, jury trial
allowed, the federal judge turned it over.
Over not to a federal prosecutor because they wouldn't prosecute
Steven donziger. So they got a private company.
Private Law Firm to do this case, there are private
prosecutor. I've never heard of such a
thing. I never heard of anybody under
house arrest for 800 days. Even if you had covid you
wouldn't be in bed for 800 days. I mean I'm just serious folks
this is this is madness and Steven I am sorry.
That you've had to go through this i-i'm sorry.
I didn't know about it. So how do we go eat for 800
days? And that knows, I know.
I know why we had to get rid of tromp, we had to stop a war.
We had, you know, there's a whole bunch of things going on.
I know this, I know this but this is when it happens.
My friends, this is when it happens, when you lose your
democracy, when you lose your freedoms because they it's Death
By A Thousand Cuts, who the hell is Stephen.
Downes unsecured right. And when he's not here, ok Nida
we got real stuff, we're dealing with and that's how it happens
Bit by Bit by Bit that person there and person there.
Boom, people don't talk about it, it will know about it.
They, you know, is there been a story in the times about this
about about this? This house arrest know?
The times I wasn't covered this matter for seven years.
For the most part, they ran a teeny little story when I was
convicted but You know, I've pitched them.
I know a bunch of reporters there and I pitched a bunch of
them over the last couple of years.
I think the story, I mean, even if you don't like me, you got to
admit. It's pretty newsworthy went to
Harvard Law grad, you know, with my background of stuck in this
home for over two years but they, you know, and look,
there's journalist flying here. Thousands of miles away from
places in Europe to interview me and they're down the street near
where you live their headquarters and they won't even
come here. So, You know, many of them live
in this neighborhood. Yes.
Many of them, some of them live in my building.
Yeah, this is. This is madness.
Yeah, I hope I hope somebody listening to this an American
that not a foreign journalist who's been.
They've been covering it. But an American journalist
American show on cable news. Whatever.
This is just crazy. I will do my part to raise hell
about this. I'll make my phone calls
everybody. Listening, you make your phone
calls. I'll send your emails to the
attorney general. How about the movement here to
free? Steven from his house arrest,
but also from the persecution, in general that I'm sure will
continue with Chevron and easy for me to say, but please nobody
take away from today's podcast. The lesson that you see, see
what happens to you. If you rock the boat, You fight
City Hall. This is what happens to you as
if we all if that's the lesson we learn from the case of Steven
donziger, well we're over That's it.
I refuse to be over. So my friends, do what you can
do? I'll do what I can do in Steven,
you hang in there, please. Thank you.
This is a horrible trauma that you've had to go through.
Sometimes, I don't know how people get through this and
makes what I've had to go through seem like small
potatoes. So thank you for the work.
You've done over all these years to stand up for this planet to
stand up for the people that Are suffering because of what these
large corporations do, especially what they do in the
third world. It's it means a lot to me
personally. I want you to know that.
I know it does to people listening.
Yeah. If I could just say, before we
part here, I have loved and admired your work for so many
years is truly an honor to share this story with you, in
particular and your audience, that I know loves to follow you
and loves your journalism and your Will you expose the truth
and the way you take on and trench interests over your life
and it's an inspiration to me. So to get those kind words from,
you means a lot personally to me and my family and I just want to
finally say, you know, I don't want people to hear my story and
be demoralized. We must act.
We must organize and we must continue to build the support.
We have a lot of support and I want to just end by saying, you
know, this is happening to me because the people of Ecuador
Spoke truth to power. They want a historic court case
and they were successful and continue to be successful.
This is happening because of our success, not because of anything
wrong that occurred. And I want to be very clear
about that. When you are successful, you're
going to be subject to these kinds of attacks.
I think this is wholly unjustified, the attacks, but
just remember it's happening because of our success.
So, let's continue to organize and push this out there and
spread the word. And I thank you again for the
time. Thank you.
Stephen and thank you to all of you who listen to this podcast.
Today we have work to do, so let's do it and you hang in
there. Help, I hope is on the way here.
I have a feeling that the thousands of people who listen
to this are not people who are couch potatoes, we are active
citizens in our democracy. And in fact, it's almost
redundant to have to even say you're an active citizen.
Because if we're not active in a democracy, if you're not active,
The Democracy ceases to exist. It's only a democracy because
the citizens are active and, and we can't let this continue with
you and God man, it just makes me wonder how many other Stephen
Downes occurs. There are in this country.
I think we know the answer to that of people who have been
abused by our justice system that often times is not set up
for justice. It's it's set up to help those
who are well off and do not Want things to change and they can
see the tide, they can see the rising tide that's happening.
They can see the younger generation not willing to put up
with this any longer and to not go through another generation
where we have this kind of disparity, it has harmed us as a
people. It is harmed, our environment
and to put up with it a day longer is to acknowledge that.
It's okay. To let this all go away.
Well, it's not okay with me. So, everybody listening, do your
part? Go to these links?
Go to free donziger.com. And we'll do our best to help
Steven here. All right, my friends.
That's it for today. Thank you to our executive
producer, bezel, Hamden and our editor, Nick, quas, and sound
engineer Donald Bornstein, our researcher, Harrison, Malkin,
and all others who Assist me in doing this.
Thanks to all of you. Paid members who tuned in to the
live Q&A here this week. That was a lot of fun will do
another one next month. If you are already a member of
my Subspace act where you get my column each week and this
podcast emailed to you, thank you for being a member.
It's free. And for those who want to donate
to the cause here, what we're trying to do, then we do this
little Q&A every month and we have a movie night So if you
want to join us, please do that. It's a lot of fun.
All right, everybody, man, this kind of knocked the wind out of
me. Here I am.
Just so I'm in such a rage that I hate it.
When I don't know, shit that's going on.
And I followed this case, almost a decade ago, and wow, what a
great day it was for the Ecuadorian people, that, that
Chevron Texaco Chevron was brought down by this attorney,
in the fact that he would have To pay for this through this
kind of persecution. He's years later, I guess they
have a long memory well so do we.
So let's let's all of us do our best to help out.
Stephen danziger have a good day and a good evening my friends
and I will send you my sub stack if you're signed up for it on
the Sunday and will be back next week here on Rumble with Michael
Moore and Still him Michael Moore over now.