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Next on words and numbers. 
Higher education. 

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The fallout from AI, higher 
education and post liberalism. 

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Hi, I'm James. 
And I'm Anthony. 

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And this is words and numbers. 
I remind our listeners that 

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everything we discuss here 
reflects our opinions and not 

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those of our employers. 
I remind everyone who is 

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listening that my opinion should
reflect your opinion. 

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Well, your opinion should 
reflect my opinions. 

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I guess would be the only way to
to to put that. 

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Reason your opinion should 
reflect my opinion. 

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Is that what you said? 
Your opinion should reflect my 

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opinion. 
That's what I said. 

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Yeah. 
So that everybody's opinion 

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should I should just be? 
Your opinion can respond of. 

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Opinions. 
Everybody should just come up 

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and bask in the reflection that 
I'm sending out. 

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But. 
But anyway, this gets us around 

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the tawdry problem of saying 
what's new and exciting in your 

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world this weekend. 
Well, one of our listeners send 

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an article. 
This comes from Joanne Scherino,

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and I apologize if I've 
mispronounced. 

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Joanne sends an article from 
your neck of the wood, James. 

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Yeah, except. 
Except stop it because you, you 

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just, you just stop it right now
and I'm going to move on for a 

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second. 
And yeah, you're not allowed to 

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talk anymore. 
No more talking. 

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I'm not done no more talking. 
Oh, oh, you're done. 

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And you have. 
Things to say about AI. 

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Well, then you could say him in 
a minute. 

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All right, until then, I I've 
got this great story was running

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the Washington Post and it come 
come to find out if you are 

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enterprising enough and clever 
enough, you can rail your way 

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through a bachelor's degree in a
matter literally of weeks. 

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Yeah, You know, I've seen 
references to that, and I saw 

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somebody say, oh, you can get a 
PhD in a year. 

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I'm thinking, Oh no, I don't 
know what you're selling, but 

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that's not a PhD. 
Oh well, you can. 

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I mean, some institution will 
grant you something that they 

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call a PhD, but when people tell
me they're APHD now I have to 

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stop. 
And I say, are you a real one or

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one of them online ones? 
There's a difference. 

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And then I need to see your 
dissertation so I can figure out

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if you're telling me a bunch of 
lies or not, like Doctor Jill 

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Biden. 
Liar, filthy liar. 

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If anybody calls her doctor in 
any seriousness, you ought to 

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have your head exam. 
But she is in She's. 

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In EDD. 
I believe she is an EGD. 

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But I I did myself the 
disservice of reading her 

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dissertation. 
And it's so bad that I should 

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find a way to make it available 
to everyone. 

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I mean, it's just atrocious. 
But there there is this one 

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woman, her name is Christine 
Williams, finished her 

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bachelor's in three months. 
Yeah, I saw a. 

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Reference and it's his. 
That. 

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It's a story straight out of the
Washington Post, right? 

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You can if you look for 
Christine Williams, and she was 

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from North Carolina and went on 
in a couple of more months to 

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get a master's degree. 
No big. 

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Deal. 
But if it's the article that I'm

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thinking of, it was at least the
thrust of the article was not 

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that this was a diploma mill, 
but rather they simply gave her 

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tests that someone with that 
level of knowledge should be 

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able to pass and she passed 
them. 

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Therefore, go with God. 
She figured out how to negotiate

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the process and she watched a 
bunch of apparently there is 

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some way to watch online 
tutorials and get credit for 

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them and things like this. 
And now she is helping other 

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people negotiate these waters. 
And I've got two thoughts on it.

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On the one hand, if you're 
looking for a credential and you

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can get one very, very quickly 
at a low cost, well, I guess 

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you'd be crazy not to. 
If you're looking for a, what we

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would typically call a college 
education, you can't get it in 

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three months. 
You just can't. 

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So these are two completely 
different things. 

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You can call them both products 
if you want, but they're not the

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same. 
And I guess only you could know 

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which of the two you're truly 
interested in. 

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And I cast no aspersions one way
or the other. 

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But when colleges have made the 
cost of an education so very, 

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very high, you could expect 
people to figure out sooner or 

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later how to gain the system. 
And these people, the colleges, 

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I mean, have allowed their 
systems to be gained by offering

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online classes in the 1st place.
And this woman was taking up to 

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11 at a time. 
Yeah. 

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Because let's face it, they're 
not terribly difficult. 

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Which, Anthony, brings us to the
foolishness of the week, which 

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is what you wanted to talk. 
Oh, is this what you weren't 

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going to use? 
It as the foolishness, yes. 

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So now we can talk about it for 
for twice as long if you like, 

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and for this in my neck of the 
woods, so so. 

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Joanne Shirino sends this this 
article on AI Arizona State 

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University. 
Apparently the professors there 

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and I gather from reading the 
article that the professors were

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filming their classes for their 
own use. 

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The university gets hold of 
these videos and chops them up 

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into. 
Sports. 

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This was the thing when I was at
the University of Arizona, they 

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they were forever trying to get 
me to go into that a little 

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recording studio, real high end 
stuff. 

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And they wanted me to record 
lectures, which would then 

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immediately become the property 
of the University of Arizona. 

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And the minute I heard that, I'm
like, I'm out, you know, we're 

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done here. 
But other other people were only

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too thrilled to do that. 
That way they could upload their

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lectures and only give them once
and have their their course 

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online and all of this. 
But, you know, leave it to 

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college administrators, the 
little deanlets that run around 

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loose on college campuses. 
Leave it to them to figure out 

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how to make a mockery of higher 
education. 

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Yeah, So they take these videos,
cut them up into shorts, and now

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they're professors complaining 
that they're the the short is 

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taken out of context. 
And I can picture easily, I've, 

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I've given plenty of lectures in
which I describe a counter a, a 

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counter argument to the point 
that I'm trying to make. 

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And if you were to take the 
video and cut out just that 

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counter argument, it would look 
like I'm promoting all kinds of 

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nonsense that is completely 
antithetical to the thing I'm 

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teaching. 
But that's never going to happen

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here, aunt, for for a reason 
that that you just kind of 

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glossed right over. 
You missed the industry buzzword

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AI is. 
AI is doing it, Yeah, yeah. 

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So therefore it can never be 
incorrect or mistaken. 

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So the AI is making things 
really short so people with tiny

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little attention spans can 
digest it. 

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But then the AI is also creating
I, I guess, little tiny printed 

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versions of the lectures, right?
That you can get a transcript if

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if you must. 
How is this not the most 

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ridiculous thing in the world? 
Yeah. 

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Who came up with this? 
Who said, you know what we 

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should do? 
We should take every word out of

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a professor's mouth and reduce 
it to the three essential 

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minutes. 
Right. 

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Yeah, I've, I've got all kinds 
of problems with this. 

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Probably first and foremost that
you touched on is that they did 

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this without the professor's 
consent. 

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That, well, they don't have to 
have the professor's consent and

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I, I, I don't, I never dealt 
with Arizona State, so I don't 

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know. 
I'm assuming the rules for them 

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are exactly the same as they 
were for me at EU of A. 

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This is all progressed I made 
before video became a thing. 

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I made probably 200 videos of 
various lectures and then 

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shortened things like 5 minutes 
on particular topics, and it was

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early enough that it wasn't even
on the university's radar. 

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It didn't occur to them that 
these videos would exist, let 

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alone that they would have some 
entitlement to them. 

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Aunt, I had to have a serious 
conversation with some stuffed 

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shirt at EU of A about who owned
the words I wrote into an online

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learning system. 
In his opinion, it was it was up

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in the air. 
So you can you can rest knowing 

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that if you made a video and 
uploaded it, they're going to 

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think it's theirs. 
And if they think it's theirs, 

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they could do anything they want
with it. 

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Sooner or later, you know what 
they're going to do. 

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They're going to take the AI 
version of these professors and 

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fire the. 
Professors, right? 

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Exactly. 
They'll take the AI version and 

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then just link it to a textbook 
and tell the AI we're doing 

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lectures. 
Yeah. 

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We're done here, Yeah. 
And you know, on the one hand, 

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this is nonsense of the highest 
order and they should not get 

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the hell off. 
On the other, this kind of crap 

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is going to bring my preferred 
form of education back into 

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vogue, right? 
And sooner, sooner or later, a 

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lot of little tiny places are 
going to offer seminar only 

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learning. 
And it's going to be fantastic. 

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I, I won't live to see it, 
right? 

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I mean, it's, it's not going to 
happen in the next 10 years, but

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it it will come about as a 
result of this kind of nonsense,

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this just lunacy. 
I'm, I'm looking forward to the 

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complete tearing down and 
rebuilding of higher education 

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in this country. 
Yeah, it, it has. 

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It was, it was headed toward the
farcical for a long time. 

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And I think, I think it arrived 
a few years ago. 

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Don't you remember when the 
university was going to be 

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replaced and and utterly changed
by Moocs? 

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Massive online, massive Open 
online courses, right? 

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I wrote a MOOC. 
I've gotten that. 

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So you did. 
Yeah, Yeah. 

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Yeah, it took forever, but what 
a what a pain in the ass. 

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And and then, you know, it's it,
this is going to replace the 

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university that's going to 
replace the university. 

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What's going to replace the 
university is an actual form of 

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a center of learning. 
Right. 

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And the university isn't going 
to be replaced so much as it's 

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going to put itself out of 
business. 

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Yeah, and this comes back to 
your your dichotomy between 

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education and credential. 
Yet you can. 

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You can find all kinds of 
shortcut ways to generate 

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credentials. 
I mean, heck, you and I both 

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have PhDs. 
We could come up with some new 

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form of credential that's above 
a PhD, and if you listeners 

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would send us $5000 each, we 
will happily sign our names to 

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it and you'd be a super PhD. 
That's all it. 

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Takes for the credential. 
The education, on the other 

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hand, takes a tremendous amount 
of sweat and time and effort. 

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Yeah, that's that's right. 
And, and there are even some 

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instances of, of people having a
combination of both. 

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It's not necessarily either or 
right and, and, and all points 

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in between. 
And I'm literally not 

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besmirching 1 and upholding the 
other. 

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Sometimes you need a credential.
I'm I'm OK with that. 

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I mean, that's where we live in.
Sometimes you want to have four 

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years of leisure where you can 
put your feet up and really 

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learn well. 
Some people can't afford to do 

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that. 
Some people can't afford to wait

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for years to get a credential. 
I get that. 

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I don't want to. 
I don't want to hamstring them 

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at all. 
But the universities are going 

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to put themselves out of 
business. 

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And that, my friend, will be the
happiest outcome I can imagine. 

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This week, Phil Magnus joins us.
Phil is an economic historian 

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and David J Thoreau Chair at the
Independent Institute. 

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Phil, welcome back to Words and 
Numbers. 

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Happy to be here. 
Phil, it's been half a minute 

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since you've been on. 
Lots of things have gone on in 

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the world. 
Many things have changed. 

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But we wanted to have you on 
specifically to talk about the 

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nation of Hungary, which frankly
doesn't get a lot of airplay 

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here in the US for all kinds of 
perfectly understandable 

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reasons. 
But there, there there are some 

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things that happened in Hungary.
I guess what was it as we 

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discuss it today, couple of 
weeks ago that that have a 

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ripple effect that will find its
way onto our shores. 

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So however you want to get 
started, you know, maybe let's 

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hang back on that for a minute 
or two and just tell us about 

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Viktor Orban first. 
Right. 

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So Viktor Orban was the long 
term Prime Minister of Hungary. 

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00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:06,200
He had been in power for about 
16 years, and this was actually 

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his second turn, second go round
as Prime Minister 'cause he had 

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00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:15,280
also been in that role in the 
late 1990s for a stint as a big 

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00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,360
fixture in Hungarian politics. 
He really burst onto the scene 

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00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,520
like right at the fall of the 
Soviet Union as kind of a 

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00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:23,560
student leader against the 
communists. 

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00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:29,160
And during his first term, he 
was, I'd say, like most typical 

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people on the European, Eastern 
European riot, he was anti 

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00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,240
communist. 
But in his second term, he's 

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00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,760
moved in some very peculiar 
directions that have mostly been

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00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,800
characterized by the 
consolidation of power. 

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So when he came back into office
in 2010, he started making moves

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00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,960
against some of his opposition, 
keeping them out of the 

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00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,560
state-run. 
Media notice state-run became 

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00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:56,360
increasingly the theme, taking 
public ownership of corporations

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00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,800
and using state assets as 
political leverage. 

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So really, by the end of his 
second term, which he just got 

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00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,520
voted out of office by a pretty 
resounding margin, he was 

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00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:14,800
styling himself as a figure of 
ill liberal democracy or post 

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00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,760
liberalism. 
Well, it was curious too, wasn't

248
00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:19,920
it, Phil? 
Because given where he started, 

249
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,200
he sure did cozy up to Putin in 
very strange ways. 

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00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,080
It is, and that's one that we're
trying to figure out. 

251
00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,520
You know, I think probably the 
cynical side of it is, is 

252
00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:35,480
there's money involved. 
Hungary is a major consumer of 

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energy resources coming from 
Russia. 

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00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,080
Actually, they got carve outs 
from the Trump administration 

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from the sanctions on Russia. 
And we can get into the story of

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00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,560
how that happened. 
But he he had a very close 

257
00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,520
foreign policy relationship. 
So one of the scandals right 

258
00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,760
before his election in this kind
of say, it sunk his entire 

259
00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,400
party. 
His foreign minister, it was 

260
00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,280
revealed through some tapes, had
been like ducking out of 

261
00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:04,000
European Commission foreign 
policy meetings and going off 

262
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,200
and calling the Russians and 
reporting, well, hey, this is 

263
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,040
what they just did. 
And you know, that's that's kind

264
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:12,120
of a no, no in the yeah, that's 
not Syria. 

265
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,920
And and perhaps you could 
explain geographically where 

266
00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,600
Hungary sits relative to the 
Russians. 

267
00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,840
Yeah, so Hungary is in kind of 
the central part of Eastern 

268
00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:25,920
Europe. 
Most people know we're being in 

269
00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:27,600
Austria as you go east from 
there. 

270
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,640
It's on the Danube River, you 
know, it's surrounded by. 

271
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:37,440
So it butts up against Slovakia,
butts up against Ukraine, which 

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00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,480
is. 
There, there's one of the other,

273
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,720
and therein lies the problem. 
Therein, therein lies the 

274
00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,520
problem. 
So if if Ukraine were to. 

275
00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:51,320
Fall Hungary is is kind of next 
in the line. 

276
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,680
Who knows what happens, right? 
In a really weird move, so Orban

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00:16:55,680 --> 00:17:00,440
knew he was losing in the polls 
going into this election and he 

278
00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,640
tried to stir up like this 
conspiracy theory style 

279
00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,920
campaign, almost like 
manufacturing a conflict with 

280
00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,400
Zelensky in Ukraine, claiming 
that Zelensky was trying to 

281
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:14,480
sabotage Hungary in some way or 
another. 

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00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,520
And it can never really specify 
how, but they're all these weird

283
00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,560
things that started happening. 
Like they intercepted a bank 

284
00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:24,040
shipment from Austria to Ukraine
and claimed that it was money 

285
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:25,800
laundering. 
And then a week later or so, 

286
00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:30,080
they claimed to have uncovered 
a, a plot to blow up a pipeline 

287
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,600
going into Hungary and just all 
these really weird suspicious 

288
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,680
things. 
But Slitsky was singled out as 

289
00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,840
as if he was the enemy and the 
the nefarious force behind all 

290
00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:41,720
of this. 
And the Ukrainians are kind of 

291
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,360
like, what What are you doing? 
So it really don't make much 

292
00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:47,400
sense. 
That there was a point where, 

293
00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:51,560
you know, I, I would look at 
Orban and I would think he's 

294
00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:56,640
about as unlikely to lose an 
election as Erdogan in Turkey, 

295
00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,000
right? 
That he's just going to be there

296
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,160
for a very, very long time and 
we all better get used to it. 

297
00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:07,840
And yet he lost this election so
badly that there were no 

298
00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,840
shenanigans. 
He just got up, conceited and 

299
00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,200
went home. 
Well, they were talking like 

300
00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,200
some of the videos before the 
polling place. 

301
00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,080
He was showing up and doing his 
campaign rallies and he was 

302
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:22,920
getting booed and the Hungarians
were shouting Russians go home 

303
00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,200
at him and it and it looked kind
of like a you remember Nikolaj 

304
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,640
Kochesku and Romania that. 
Christmas one year, Yeah, and 

305
00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,360
Christmas. 
Under the balcony expecting like

306
00:18:33,360 --> 00:18:35,600
they're going to be cheering for
him and they start booing him 

307
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,880
and then his face. 
But you can see that on Orban's 

308
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,960
face at some of these final 
stretch campaign rallies. 

309
00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,400
And yet and what happened, it's 
it's always a resounding defeat.

310
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,680
He got a super majority against 
him. 

311
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,200
And it that wasn't supposed to 
happen because one of the things

312
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,480
he did, he played redistricting 
shenanigans. 

313
00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:59,120
He tried to gerrymander a big 
part of the the way that the 

314
00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:02,240
Hungarian parliament was elected
because it's a dual system. 

315
00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:04,560
There are districts and then 
there's a proportional 

316
00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:06,680
nationwide based on the party 
vote. 

317
00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,920
And he tried to gerrymander the 
district part so that they 

318
00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,720
favored rural boats over the 
city 'cause he's not popular in 

319
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,720
Budapest but he was popular in 
the rural areas. 

320
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,360
And then he ends up winning like
5 of them out of the however 

321
00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:22,840
many dozens. 
This this election did not work 

322
00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,840
out at all for him. 
His party is relegated to an ash

323
00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:32,040
heap at this point. 
The but, But you know Phil, why 

324
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,520
on earth do we care? 
Well, if you remember, a couple 

325
00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:39,640
days before the election, a 
fellow by the name of JD Vance 

326
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,520
flew over to Budapest. 
I I do remember it seemed odd to

327
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:47,560
me that a vice president, a 
sitting vice president, would be

328
00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:52,160
actively campaigning for 
somebody in the 1st place and 

329
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:56,080
then actively campaigning for 
somebody who I, I widely regard 

330
00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:00,160
as a despot. 
Right, right and in a very minor

331
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:04,000
player on the world scene, a 
little Eastern European country,

332
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,760
not very big in population it's 
got one of the weakest economies

333
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:11,520
in Europe and here's JD Vance 
showing up not just to talk to 

334
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,720
the leader but to do campaign 
rallying they. 

335
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,280
Literally honest with Donald 
Trump on the cell phone. 

336
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,920
Held up to the microphone, yes. 
And and he and it was a 

337
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,360
succession of these events. 
We just the big public rally 

338
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:27,960
with Orban and then he goes 
around all these little 

339
00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,920
campaigns. 
So he was on the stump for a 

340
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,680
foreign leader and and people 
like, why is the vice president 

341
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,640
of the United States doing this?
Well, it turns out there's more 

342
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,080
to the story. 
And that's where things get 

343
00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,280
really interesting because JD 
Vance. 

344
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,400
And they do get really, Oh yeah,
really interesting. 

345
00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:50,880
Yeah, So JD Vance has a lot of 
political friends that predate 

346
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,480
his Senate career. 
Even in this movement called 

347
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,760
post liberalism, it's this kind 
of ideological thing that came 

348
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,920
out of the right. 
But but before we go. 

349
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,960
Before you go much further, 
yeah, tell us, what does post 

350
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,440
liberalism mean? 
Yeah, well, a lot of people are 

351
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:12,360
trying to figure that out. 
I think the the ungenerous way 

352
00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:16,120
to put it, these are people who 
think that modernity is an 

353
00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:19,800
abomination against nature and 
that the modern economy of the 

354
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:23,760
world is too consumerist, and 
that actually the golden age of 

355
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:28,040
world history was kind of a 
medieval Europe when the church 

356
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,080
and the king placed everything 
in order. 

357
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:35,080
So if people would like to get, 
oh, I don't know, a stiffer 

358
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,760
whiff of this, they can go read 
anything by Patrick Denny. 

359
00:21:39,120 --> 00:21:40,880
Yes, indeed. 
So this is just. 

360
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:45,200
This is basically that it's the 
same period of time politically 

361
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:49,040
and socially that that gave 
birth to mercantilism, which 

362
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,600
just got just figured out for 
the umpteenth time in our 

363
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,520
history with the tariffs. 
Is a bad idea. 

364
00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,120
That's exactly it. 
And you know what? 

365
00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:02,000
The post liberals, if you ask 
them about economic questions, 

366
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,640
guess what? 
They default to tariffs. 

367
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,560
They absolutely end the stuff. 
And, and look, one of the the 

368
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:14,040
I'll just throw another name out
on the heap or in Cass, who has 

369
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:18,400
everybody's ear, who declared 
himself an economist. 

370
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,840
Not an economist, no, No. 
But he, he, he's the only fake 

371
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,400
economist that they really 
listen to that. 

372
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,560
That's right, I'm a I'm a fake 
economist. 

373
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:28,360
Why not me? 
You. 

374
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,600
Haven't declared yourself when 
you got to give yourself a title

375
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,440
and I'm going to create a fake 
think tank as well and American 

376
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:36,400
I could. 
Do those things. 

377
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,000
Yeah, I could do those things 
and and buddy up the JD Vance 

378
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,440
and Org cast runs. 
In these post liberal world, 

379
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,640
this is kind of a weird academic
movement, and I've traced the 

380
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,880
history of this. 
I've published a few articles on

381
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,920
it and work with some other 
scholars who have as well, and 

382
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,400
it really only pops onto the 
scene about the earliest 

383
00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,080
origins, about the mid 2000s. 
They give themselves the name, 

384
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,320
the self assigned name of post 
liberalism. 

385
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,720
The earliest I can find that is 
in 2011. 

386
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,440
So it's a very recent emergence 
in the political scene. 

387
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:11,880
You mentioned Patrick Deneen's 
one of them. 

388
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:17,080
He's the political theory 
professor at Notre Dame and it's

389
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,360
kind of seen as like the 
godfather, the post liberal 

390
00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:21,800
scene. 
You know, he he he likes the 

391
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:25,640
medieval world and he wants to 
go back to that is a place and 

392
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,600
what why you say that? 
But and you read his writings, 

393
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:33,480
he views modernity as a 
revulsion against nature. 

394
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,120
He thinks that we we have 
exceeded our boundaries of the 

395
00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:40,520
earth's offerings to us, which 
are really God's offerings to 

396
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:42,280
us. 
And we have to go back to that. 

397
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:47,280
And look not not to let's at 
least be fair for a minute right

398
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,080
there. 
There are intellectual 

399
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,440
underpinnings to this which are 
legitimate, right? 

400
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,320
We can look to people like 
Wilmore Kendall. 

401
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,280
Sure, sure. 
I think and and see somebody who

402
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,160
wants a more bucolic way of 
life. 

403
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,640
Yeah, or or old agrarian style 
thinkers. 

404
00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:08,680
It's the difference between like
wanting to live in the Shire 

405
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:13,480
with the hobbits and wanting to 
live in the medieval monastery. 

406
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,560
I think that's that's right. 
There's is. 

407
00:24:17,120 --> 00:24:20,440
They can all go and do that. 
Yeah, they don't want that. 

408
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,720
They want to force us to live 
that way. 

409
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:24,240
There's to do. 
It. 

410
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,600
And there's a fair amount of 
Christian nationalism woven into

411
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:28,800
this nonsense. 
Yeah. 

412
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,920
It is. 
And the other interesting thing,

413
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:36,000
the Church doesn't like them, of
course, doesn't believe in this 

414
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,200
nonsense. 
So so they they present 

415
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,360
themselves as like holier than 
thou, more Catholic than thou, 

416
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,680
quite literally more Catholic 
than the Pope, as JD Van seems 

417
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:50,200
to have proclaimed himself. 
Well, we used to be more 

418
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,600
Catholic than the Pope. 
Well, well, the post liberal 

419
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,160
certainly think they are. 
But and the Vatican's kind of 

420
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,320
stayed away from this, but they 
did the the nun CEO to the 

421
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:03,160
United States, Cardinal Pierre, 
that's a very top Vatican 

422
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:08,320
official is basically speaking 
on behalf of the Pope published 

423
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,760
A lecture last fall where he he 
he targeted what he called 

424
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,480
illiberal authoritarian strains 
of thought in American politics.

425
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:17,520
And he said there are two of 
them. 

426
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,720
One of them is wokeness on the 
left and the other he says is 

427
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,640
post liberalism on the right. 
He named the Dean in there. 

428
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:29,520
He says this instrumentalizes 
the faith to worldly political 

429
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:31,600
ends. 
This is against Catholic social 

430
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,840
teaching, even though it's 
cloaked itself up in that. 

431
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,840
Hooray for him is supposed, 
because those are, in my 

432
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,440
opinion, our two biggest 
enemies, one on the left, one on

433
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,080
the right, and then they are 
both thoroughly illiberal. 

434
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,800
It's just sad that one of them 
openly refers to itself as 

435
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,560
illiberal. 
Indeed, that's Victor Ormond, 

436
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,040
and you got these other 
characters around them. 

437
00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:00,560
So Denine's the political theory
guy, Adrian Vermeul at Harvard, 

438
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,040
who's a law professor there. 
And he kind of pops up on the 

439
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:10,960
scene as well in the mid 2000s 
as like a, a, a very hawkish, 

440
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,840
almost Dick Cheney style 
centralized presidential power. 

441
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,520
Because we're in a state of 
emergency and we need to defeat 

442
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,640
terrorism and al Qaeda. 
And we're always the courts are 

443
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,400
not up to the staff. 
We're always in the state of. 

444
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,240
Exactly so. 
So he was, he was that guy. 

445
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,560
Like he writes all these books 
on presidential power in the mid

446
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,320
2000s. 
Of course, the War on Terror, it

447
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,320
kind of fades as an issue. 
It's no longer with us. 

448
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,880
But he keeps his prescriptions 
of centralizing the presidency 

449
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,240
around him, around all these 
emergencies that are declared 

450
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,840
everything. 
And you know, the, the terrorism

451
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,800
emergency becomes the COVID 
emergency becomes the, I guess 

452
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,680
the, the, the trade deficit 
emergencies, the current 1. 

453
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,320
Sure. 
The immigration emergency. 

454
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:01,400
Yeah, Yeah, it's different 
emergency and Vermeul believes 

455
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,040
this and he says, well, 
emergencies require strong 

456
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:09,840
executive action and and he 
turns his fire on originalism. 

457
00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:14,760
He thinks Madisonian democracy 
and constitutionalism of 

458
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,080
separated powers and checks and 
balances and basically our core 

459
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,600
constitutional order. 
He thinks that that is an 

460
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,480
aberration against the natural 
order of things. 

461
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,040
Sure. 
And now, now I now I sense there

462
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,920
you're about to link the 2 
worlds that you've been talking 

463
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,520
about. 
Indeed, I am so, so, so. 

464
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,800
Here's Adrian Vermeul and and 
Patrick Deneen. 

465
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:37,560
They're fostering this 
intellectual community. 

466
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,880
Vermeul stumbles across this 
political theorist by the name 

467
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,480
of Carl Schmidt and Carl 
Schmidt. 

468
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,280
Yeah, I, I, I know exactly who 
Carl Schmidt is, but go ahead 

469
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,880
and tell everybody else the. 
Your your listener so Carl 

470
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,480
Schmidt says he's a German 
jurist in the 1920s and 30s, 

471
00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,280
which. 
Should be sending up warning 

472
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:03,160
threads to everybody with a 
historical sense of anything. 

473
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,960
Yeah, so and there and he's a 
he's of the kind of the 

474
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,040
reactionary riots of the the 
European scene. 

475
00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:11,880
And in the in the 1920s, he 
decides that the Weimar 

476
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,800
constitution is like polluted by
liberalism and by liberalism 

477
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,600
means classical liberalism. 
Now the Weimar constitution had 

478
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,680
a bunch of problems with it, but
like this guy's diagnosis of it 

479
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:26,440
is it lacks a strong leader. 
It lacks a representative of the

480
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,280
German people. 
Well, it lacks A purer might be 

481
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:32,200
the. 
Word as, as Larry would have it.

482
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:35,240
An. 
Answer for this well. 

483
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:40,000
And he got his opportunity in 
1933, Hitler seized to power. 

484
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:44,720
And Schmidt basically goes to 
kiss this guy's ass. 

485
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,040
And he ingratiates himself to 
the right. 

486
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:52,560
And he attains this academic 
post as a essentially like a 

487
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,000
crown jurist of the head of the 
German legal profession 

488
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,120
sanctioned by the Nazi 
government. 

489
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:03,240
He's close personal friends with
Herman Gearing, deeply enmeshed 

490
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,520
in the Hitler regime of applying
all these theories he's done 

491
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,920
about centralizing executive 
power against the the failures 

492
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,640
of liberal constitutionalism 
into the principle of the 

493
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,080
Fuhrer. 
Now in 1934, there's this little

494
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,080
incident called the Night of the
Long Knives, and that's when 

495
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,680
Hitler sends all his goons to 
murder basically all the 

496
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,840
political opposition, the 
residual politicians that could 

497
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,280
challenge him in the future for 
chancellor. 

498
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,480
So they assassinate like former 
chancellors of Germany, 

499
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,920
opposition leaders, even the 
faction in the Nazi party that 

500
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,720
was at odds with the other 
factions in the Nazi party. 

501
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:41,480
You know, they're, they're 
always feuding with each other. 

502
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,600
But it's Hitler's consolidation 
of power. 

503
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,280
And Schmidt pens this essay 
basically declaring, well, this 

504
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,680
was the consummation of the 
state of exception, the state of

505
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,760
emergency when the 
constitutional order, IE court 

506
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,080
rulings and rights and all the 
things that we take for granted,

507
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,280
that they failed to address the 
threat to the German nation. 

508
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,280
And the Fuhrer stepped into that
void and he acted on behalf of 

509
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:07,880
the German people and saved 
Germany. 

510
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,840
And that's Schmidt's whole 
shtick wrapped up in that 

511
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,320
political event. 
Now he his academic career kind 

512
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,680
of goes on the rocks after about
1945. 

513
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,480
Imagine that. 
Yeah, and he and he retires, 

514
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:26,240
although he, he, he escapes some
of the criminality of like the 

515
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,440
Nuremberg trials because he's 
not in an official capacity, 

516
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,480
although he'd spent years as 
like a cheerleader for Nazi 

517
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,240
Germany. 
So he, but he's discredited, 

518
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:39,520
goes into retirement and he 
actually dies in the 1980s and 

519
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,200
he had faded into obscurity and 
especially in the English 

520
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,280
speaking world by then, there's 
some people on the far right. 

521
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,640
And then weirdly, the far left 
rediscovers him in the European 

522
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,760
sea. 
But so he dies in 1986. 

523
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,680
And I've done some research into
this to try to find out Did any 

524
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,360
English newspapers cover 
Schmidt's obituary? 

525
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,880
Hard to match a single one. 
Yeah, it would be hard to match.

526
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,680
I I did a full nationwide 
newspaper search in 1986. 

527
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,800
There are more references to the
closing of the Carl Schmidt 

528
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,960
Landfill in Wisconsin than there
are to Carl Schmidt's death. 

529
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,400
Yeah, and it's now like an EPA 
Superfund site. 

530
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,400
All right, so you're going to 
have to you're going to have to 

531
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,520
entertain me here for a minute. 
Why are we talking about Nazis 

532
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,680
when we started talking about 
Hungarians and then we talked 

533
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,360
about American Post leaders? 
Well, because Adrian Vermeul 

534
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,000
discovers Carl Schmidt and sets 
out on a mission to rehabilitate

535
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,720
him. 
He declares his objections to 

536
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,720
the Madisonian constitutional 
order are fatal in the modern 

537
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,600
era because it's obsolete. 
It's out with its usefulness. 

538
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,720
We need a strong executive step 
in his place. 

539
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,920
And Carl Schmidt has provided 
him the framework. 

540
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,280
And he says, what, We'll scrape 
the marrow out of the bone, 

541
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,880
discard the Nazi stuff. 
And I'm paraphrasing here, but 

542
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:02,040
pretty closely. 
And and Vermul's 2011 book he 

543
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:07,520
says we as legal theorists need 
to midwife the post liberal 

544
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,240
order of a new strong executive 
state based on the theories of 

545
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,600
Carl Schmidt. 
And Viktor Orban was the model 

546
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:15,400
of this state. 
Well. 

547
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,640
He becomes the one that they 
sent a lot because there are 

548
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:19,360
some other players in this 
faction. 

549
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,680
And this is where JD Vance comes
into the picture. 

550
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,360
So there's a third political 
theorist that hangs out with the

551
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:32,040
Denine Vermeul crowd by the name
of Gladden, Papen and Papen I 

552
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:33,520
especially. 
Don't like that one? 

553
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,320
He had a history, you know, he, 
he was involved in the, in this 

554
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,240
thing called the the American 
Greatness Blog, you may remember

555
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:43,920
from the first Trump 
administration. 

556
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,960
Yeah, and, and probably it's 
time for a disclaimer. 

557
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,840
The American Greatness blog 
comes from the same intellectual

558
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:59,680
heritage that I do at the 
Claremont Graduate School slash 

559
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,600
Claremont Institute, the first 
of which I had plenty to do 

560
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,040
with, the second of which I had 
nothing to do with. 

561
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,720
Yeah, yeah. 
And so that was the thing. 

562
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,280
It published this. 
The famous essay was the Flight 

563
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,520
93 election. 
Written by my my friend and 

564
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,720
former colleague Michael Anton. 
Yes, yes. 

565
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,120
Well, Papen was one of the other
anonymous bloggers, and you 

566
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,040
know, he gave himself like a an 
ancient Greek name because of 

567
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,360
course they do. 
What else would you do? 

568
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,120
Right, right. 
But he, and he was a like this 

569
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,600
minor political theorist. 
He taught at a small liberal 

570
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,720
arts school. 
You look at this guy's TV, he's 

571
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,320
got nothing on there. 
His most cited article is 

572
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,440
basically a blog post in a 
journal that he also happens to 

573
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:45,360
edit and has 10 citations. 
Not not much in the way of 

574
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,440
intellectual accomplishment 
going on there, really a 

575
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:52,440
backwater. 
But he befriends JD Vance around

576
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,920
2016 or 17. 
So right after the Hillbilly 

577
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,240
Elegy thing comes out, Vance 
starts hanging out with the Post

578
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,520
Liberals. 
He meets Dineen, he meets for 

579
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:02,840
Mule, and he especially meets 
Gladden Papen. 

580
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,640
In fact, there was a story when 
Vance ran was announced as the 

581
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,600
vice presidential candidate 
where some reporter found like 

582
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,719
his Venmo record was left 
public. 

583
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,440
Gladden Papen is one of the guys
in there. 

584
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,880
So these are personal friends 
predating the political career. 

585
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,080
So Pappins are really eccentric 
character, to put it mildly. 

586
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,040
You know, he writes all these 
tomes where he he thinks that 

587
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:32,480
the problem with American 
conservatism from the Bush era 

588
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,800
is it's too libertarian. 
Oh good Lord. 

589
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,960
He write about all these essays 
that that that the Bush style 

590
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,719
Republican Party was too 
libertarian and and was captive 

591
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,080
by the laissez faire free market
economist. 

592
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,080
It doesn't even matter which of 
the bushes you're referring to 

593
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,400
that no, actually incorrect. 
It is out there. 

594
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,520
It's certainly out there and and
of course never substantiates 

595
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,400
that. 
He just declares it so and he 

596
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,560
but he comes up with this theory
that that basically says, and it

597
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,200
sounds a lot like Nancy McClain.
He thinks that after the New 

598
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:11,240
Deal, the libertarian economic 
space, the free market economist

599
00:35:11,240 --> 00:35:15,640
types, invaded the political 
right and used their big fancy 

600
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:22,000
dark money donors to steer 
conservatism away from its focus

601
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,280
on the historical common good. 
By which he means is like back 

602
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:30,680
to medievalism, getting into 
consumerist capitalist 

603
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,960
acquisition. 
And Papen writes this whole 

604
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,440
lecture that he gives where his 
claim is that, you know, all 

605
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:39,840
these things that we start 
seeing of wokeness out of the 

606
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:45,080
the left in the mid twenty 10s. 
It's not really the academic 

607
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,480
left that's the source there. 
He says this is the corporations

608
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:53,120
that are pushing this because 
they're trying to, you know, 

609
00:35:54,360 --> 00:36:00,160
exploit individualism and mold 
humanity into this hedonistic, 

610
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,080
licentious, libertine 
consumerist culture that sits 

611
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:08,320
around and is addicted to 
pornography and orders Uber Eats

612
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,960
and watches cartoons all day. 
That's the dumbest thing I've 

613
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,800
heard all day. 
It is out there and even has a 

614
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,360
name for it. 
Tucker Carlson uses the same 

615
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:20,080
way. 
He calls it the Globo Homo 

616
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:25,840
Complex. 
So this, this is really, really 

617
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:27,680
out there. 
And, and I start reading up on 

618
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:29,680
this guy. 
It's like, where does he pop up 

619
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,600
out of the The American 
Greatness blog? 

620
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,320
Because a few years later he 
shows up, he's in Budapest. 

621
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:44,600
And it turns out around 2020 or 
21, he visited over to Viktor 

622
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,480
Orban's government because what 
Orban started to do is part of 

623
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,120
his consolidation of power. 
He starts banning universities 

624
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,520
that represented the left wing 
viewpoint, really went after 

625
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,480
George Soros and drove a Soros 
funded school out of Hungary. 

626
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:03,600
But he's also at the same time 
using state resources to create 

627
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:08,120
his own university system and 
intellectual environment from 

628
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,320
the right. 
But it's this illiberal right 

629
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,640
that he's trying to brand. 
So he he creates this thing 

630
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:17,760
called Matthias Corvinus 
Collegium and he dumps over a 

631
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,720
billion EUR worth of state 
assets into its endowment. 

632
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,560
Good God. 
Whatever do, whatever did they 

633
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:27,160
do with that endowment, Phil? 
Well. 

634
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,920
First, they hired a a board of 
trustees that also happened to 

635
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:33,800
be like basically Orban's own 
cabinet. 

636
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:36,480
Sounds right. 
I'll check this out. 

637
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,480
So the same people holding 
multiple different hats. 

638
00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:43,360
So you have this nominally 
private university funded by 

639
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:47,720
state money that's also chaired 
by Orban's political director 

640
00:37:47,720 --> 00:37:51,040
and all these ministers and 
high-ranking members of the 

641
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:56,240
Fidesz party. 
All right, so I can tell why 

642
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:01,760
America matters to Hungary. 
Yes, during the Orban years. 

643
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,600
But what I can't really get my 
hands on quite yet is why 

644
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,840
Hungary matters to America. 
And that's what I LED with, yes.

645
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:13,200
Yes. 
So, you know, and there in hangs

646
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:17,960
a tale what he Orban creates 
this university, Victor Orban 

647
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,760
University. 
He starts trying to build its 

648
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,760
academic credibility by 
recruiting American academics to

649
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,720
come over there and guest 
lecture and maybe stay for a 

650
00:38:27,720 --> 00:38:30,600
semester and teach. 
And one of the first ones he 

651
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,240
picks is this Gladden Papen 
character. 

652
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,000
And Papen goes over there in 
2021. 

653
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:42,560
I actually found the lecture or 
essay where he explains why he 

654
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,760
went over there. 
And it's it's a really strange 

655
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:47,480
tale. 
He said he he got so offended 

656
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:51,720
because he he saw like a a gay 
pride month clothing catalog 

657
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:56,920
from Target in the United States
and decided that was Globo homo 

658
00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:00,120
imposing its will through the 
capitalist economy on everyone 

659
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:04,680
and he had to flee the country. 
So he he moves over to Hungary 

660
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:09,040
and decides that Orban has 
cultivated the the the 

661
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:13,240
groundwork for an alternative 
non capitalistic economic system

662
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,280
rooted on family economics and 
what this basically means. 

663
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:21,760
And Papen says this outright in 
his essays and speeches, is 

664
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:23,600
taking the tools of the New 
Deal. 

665
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,240
But instead of using them to 
promote progressivism, we 

666
00:39:26,240 --> 00:39:30,320
promote family values of a very 
certain type that aligns with 

667
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:32,920
this traditionalist notion of 
how society should run. 

668
00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:36,520
What that means is the 
government uses a welfare state 

669
00:39:36,720 --> 00:39:40,560
to encourage families to have a 
male breadwinner, a wife who's 

670
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,600
at home rearing the kids, and 
lots and lots of kids who are 

671
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,680
subsidized by the government. 
Aunt, would you like to maybe 

672
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,560
have a comment on that? 
I'm just astounded. 

673
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:53,840
I'm just astounded as an 
educator. 

674
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:59,240
I feel like a complete failure 
that we got to somehow reteach 

675
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,320
economics from the ground up 
every 20 years. 

676
00:40:03,720 --> 00:40:05,080
Because people keep. 
Trying. 

677
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:09,240
Look, we've done all of this. 
We've done it many times over 

678
00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:13,320
many centuries with the same 
result every single time. 

679
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:16,280
And no, this time it is not 
different. 

680
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,920
There is nothing different about
this. 

681
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,880
Well, it it and it gets even 
wild here because this up 

682
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,080
happened. 
He's at this university for 

683
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,320
about a year. 
And then Orban offers him a 

684
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,200
promotion and says, well, you 
were a visiting faculty here. 

685
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,720
I want to give you a promotion. 
It's not a promotion in the 

686
00:40:33,720 --> 00:40:36,960
university. 
It's a promotion to be the head 

687
00:40:37,240 --> 00:40:40,680
of the foreign affairs ministry 
of Hungary's research arm, 

688
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,160
Hungarian, of the Institute of 
International Affairs, this 

689
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,520
government position. 
And he he names this American 

690
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:54,320
professor who doesn't speak a 
word of Hungarian, is the new 

691
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,120
head of the research arm of the 
equivalent of the Hungarian 

692
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,040
State Department. 
Now I got to I got to pause here

693
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,520
for a second. 
Papen actually is a bona fide 

694
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:08,920
academic. 
He of of sorts Harvard PhD and 

695
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,400
he taught at a couple liberal 
arts colleges. 

696
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,240
I don't think he was ever in 
like a tenured position and just

697
00:41:14,240 --> 00:41:15,880
kind of melts around. 
It can't be. 

698
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:17,400
Economics. 
It's political theory. 

699
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:20,680
OK, Yeah. 
Because that's, that's that's 

700
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:24,560
how you do all of this 
newfangled economics is you find

701
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:29,160
someone who isn't an economist. 
Even better, when he needs an 

702
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,240
economist, guess who he calls? 
Boring cast. 

703
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,760
This, this game is just too, too
easy. 

704
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:45,560
Phil I I dare say my memory 
might be faulty on this, but I 

705
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:49,200
think you and I once worked for 
a guy on the goulash train. 

706
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:52,320
Yeah, this is this is the term 
of use. 

707
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,760
It's the Hungarian government 
Goulash train 'cause you are 

708
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:59,560
Gladden Papen starts inviting 
all of his post liberal friends 

709
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:03,720
and other people in the Trump 
world over to Budapest for to 

710
00:42:03,720 --> 00:42:05,560
speak at their academic 
conferences. 

711
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:08,040
And it starts with his close 
friends. 

712
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:13,040
Adrian Vermeul, Patrick Deneen 
comes over there just a whole 

713
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:15,080
list of all these these 
characters. 

714
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:19,240
Curtis Yarvin is is another one 
that he brings over to speak. 

715
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:24,600
Just it's runs down the list. 
And then yes, there are certain 

716
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,760
high-ranking officials in the 
current Trump administration 

717
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:32,760
that have gone over and visited 
Budapest, and we're friends with

718
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,320
Gladden Papand before. 
You know. 

719
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:41,440
Trump was hilarious, but. 
The hilarious thing here is that

720
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:45,120
these morons and these people 
are morons. 

721
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:50,040
These morons went over to 
Hungary to see the future of the

722
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:54,320
world, right? 
And I hope this election in 

723
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:56,760
Hungary is the future of the 
world. 

724
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,320
All right, right. 
It's that's one of the ends. 

725
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:03,840
So, so Peter Magyar is the the 
opposition leader that unseated 

726
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:05,760
Orban. 
One of the first things he says 

727
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:10,000
is he's going to defund the 
goulash train, or as, as my 

728
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,600
friend James Patterson calls it,
the Grand Budapest Cartel. 

729
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:19,040
And Patterson wrote an excellent
article on all of this that 

730
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,720
well, our receipts. 
And names, names and everything 

731
00:43:21,720 --> 00:43:24,160
you you need it. 
Was it was fantastic. 

732
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:27,880
I can't remember the title of it
right this second, can you? 

733
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,200
Oh yeah. 
Yeah, that the Grand Budapest 

734
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,240
Cartel. 
So go, go look that one, yeah, 

735
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:34,920
is. 
It is worth reading. 

736
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,320
Worth 5 minutes of your time. 
Without there, this is funded 

737
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,160
by, I'm assuming, taxpayer 
money. 

738
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,400
Entirely, it's the, the Orban 
government, you know, put over a

739
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:47,520
billion EUR of money into this 
one thing. 

740
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,000
And then they got dozens of 
other little think tanks and 

741
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,720
things that are subsidized by 
the Hungarian government. 

742
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,480
And, and they're providing all 
these emoluments and sinecures 

743
00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:00,920
and fancy junkets to Budapest, 
to American academics to come 

744
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,320
over there and, and like tell 
them how wonderful that they are

745
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:08,160
and that this is the center of 
conservative thinking. 

746
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,360
And a whole bunch of these 
people are, are close personal 

747
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,400
friends of JD Vance, which 
brings us to what happened the 

748
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,440
week before the election. 
Well, it seems like a bunch of 

749
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,760
Vance's friends over in Budapest
'cause he starts recruiting 

750
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,680
Orban, starts recruiting more 
people like Patent Pappen to 

751
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,320
move to Budapest and gives them 
these jobs. 

752
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:30,520
There's another character. 
He's Auk. 

753
00:44:31,240 --> 00:44:35,080
He was Auk based podcaster by 
the name of Philip Pilkington. 

754
00:44:35,720 --> 00:44:39,000
He was on the post liberal scene
there again, here's the the 

755
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,880
economic craziness of it. 
So they asked Corin cast for 

756
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,560
advice. 
They also Pilkington does have a

757
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:48,200
master's degree or something in 
economics, but he trained at the

758
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:51,640
Modern Monetary Theory Group, 
right? 

759
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:58,080
Of course he did. 
And, you know, Viktor Orban last

760
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,640
year had a major inflationary 
crisis because he was following 

761
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:05,080
Modern Monetary Theory. 
So the the the Hungarian central

762
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:07,880
bank is not part of the euro for
for. 

763
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:12,600
Our listeners who have not heard
our many screeds against MMT 

764
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:17,120
Modern monetary theory, I point 
you to the inflation of 2022. 

765
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:19,960
That's what you get. 
That's modern modern monetary 

766
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,160
theory. 
That that is, it's print money 

767
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,240
and say, oh, we're the 
government, so we're we're 

768
00:45:24,240 --> 00:45:26,760
immune to yeah. 
We can cover it, It's OK. 

769
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:30,880
And so Orban basically pursues 
that and it gets even better. 

770
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,600
Last year and then again earlier
this year before his RE 

771
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:36,960
election. 
Of course, inflation is out of 

772
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:39,440
control in Hungary. 
It's the worst in the European 

773
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:41,320
Union. 
They're on their own currency 

774
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,640
separate from the euro. 
So that happens. 

775
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:46,760
What's Viktor Orban's solution 
to it? 

776
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,720
Greed, inflationary price 
controls the Kamala Harris 

777
00:45:50,720 --> 00:45:54,800
solution as advised to him by 
these Modern Monetary Theory 

778
00:45:54,800 --> 00:46:04,040
people that he's recruiting to. 
Is it any wonder that Hungarians

779
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,760
lined up around the block to 
vote against this nonsense? 

780
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:07,280
This guy. 
Out. 

781
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:08,600
Yep. 
Yeah. 

782
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:10,960
So it they. 
Did. 

783
00:46:12,240 --> 00:46:16,320
It kind of warms. 
Does my heart, does my black 

784
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,840
heart have cockles? 
If it did, they would be warmed 

785
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:21,120
by this. 
Yes. 

786
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:24,040
Right. 
This is actually a wonderful 

787
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:25,840
political outcome. 
Yes. 

788
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:27,000
And I, yes. 
I don't. 

789
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,240
I can't remember the last time 
I've said that. 

790
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:34,440
I think what it goes to, you 
know, post liberal politics, 

791
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:37,160
they present themselves, they 
graft themselves onto the name 

792
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:38,720
of populism. 
And that was their way to get 

793
00:46:38,720 --> 00:46:42,400
attached to Trump. 
But they're Potemkin populist. 

794
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:46,240
It's actually a very, very tiny 
fringe movement. 

795
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,960
You know, it's insidious. 
It's absolutely insidious. 

796
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:54,560
So Vermeen, Vermeul and Deneen 
are the only two that have 

797
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:58,520
something like a mainstream 
academic job and it and it's all

798
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:00,040
but they're the older 
generation. 

799
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,400
It goes back decades. 
You have like these B&C tier 

800
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:08,600
academics that are, are now the,
the basically the field team for

801
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:12,040
post liberalism that's brought 
over into the Orban space. 

802
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,680
But it's a very, very tiny group
of concentric overlapping 

803
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:16,760
people. 
And they all happen to be 

804
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:20,000
friends with JD Vance, predating
his political career. 

805
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:22,240
And that's why the vice 
president would go help them 

806
00:47:22,240 --> 00:47:24,400
out. 
But it, you know, at the end of 

807
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:26,640
the day, they're not populist at
all. 

808
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,240
I, I don't think Donald Trump 
for all of his many other 

809
00:47:29,240 --> 00:47:31,640
problems, I don't think he's 
opposed to liberal. 

810
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:33,880
I don't think he knows what the 
word means. 

811
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:37,400
No, I don't have look to to be a
post liberal. 

812
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:40,360
I mean, let's, let's take it 
seriously for a second. 

813
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:45,680
To be a post liberal, you would 
have to conclude that there was 

814
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:52,880
something beyond the absolute 
inviolability of the individual,

815
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:56,560
which is what liberalism is 
founded upon. 

816
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,480
And notice I'm saying liberal, 
not progressive. 

817
00:48:00,240 --> 00:48:02,600
I'm not, I'm not talking about 
Democrats here. 

818
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,480
I'm I'm a liberal. 
We're all liberals. 

819
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:10,400
And if if you think that there's
something beyond the 

820
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:15,120
inviolability of the individual,
you're not too far off from 

821
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:17,680
where Carl Schmidt started us 
down this way. 

822
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:19,640
That's. 
Where they go and you look at 

823
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,320
when they think they're among 
their own friends, Danine and 

824
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:25,160
Vermeul and some of these other 
characters, when they think 

825
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:26,880
they're among fellow post 
liberal. 

826
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:30,520
So the the the tiny little 
circle of all 17 of them, and 

827
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:33,120
they're talking to each other. 
They are not fans of the 

828
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,520
American founding. 
They think the American founding

829
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:41,080
is tainted by individualism and 
liberalism and the the insidious

830
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,800
forces of John Locke is 
transmitted through Thomas 

831
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:47,800
Jefferson and James Madison. 
And their whole thing is well, 

832
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,680
well, we had a flawed founding, 
a corrupted founding that was 

833
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,360
too individualistic, and they 
basically arrived at the same 

834
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:58,360
place as the 1619 project. 
They say the founding itself is 

835
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:02,320
corrupt and we need to be 
refounded as a nation around 

836
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,400
what they call the common good. 
Now, they can't define what the 

837
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:08,720
common good means, but when you 
start probing them and say what?

838
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:12,800
What's this term? 
It starts to sound a lot like 

839
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:17,040
their little preference for 
weird medieval anti modernist 

840
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:20,920
repudiation of the of the world.
Like right wing growth is a good

841
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:24,000
way to put. 
It it it's that's right, it's 

842
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:27,680
anti progress horseshit. 
And look, the The American 

843
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:32,080
founding featured those things. 
Exactly. 

844
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:34,080
Exactly. 
Wasn't Hanford by them? 

845
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:40,440
It was probably the single 
greatest effort in mankind to 

846
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:46,040
operationalize what we probably 
largely call the Enlightenment. 

847
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,960
Exactly, exactly. 
And it is drawing on, yes, there

848
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:52,760
are deeper traditions in that 
that go back to the Middle Ages,

849
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:56,040
go back to the ancient world, 
but there learned traditions 

850
00:49:56,040 --> 00:50:00,280
that are adapted and built upon.
It basically comes down to an 

851
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:04,520
ethos of liberty as a mechanism 
to keep us from killing each 

852
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:06,480
other. 
And and the chaos that had 

853
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:09,960
proceeded for centuries and 
centuries of warfare and turmoil

854
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,920
and abuses by government. 
Well, the post liberals think 

855
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:17,640
that that somehow was the golden
age and it's actually the modern

856
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:21,720
era that's the aberration. 
And the United States is a 

857
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:26,000
complete failure of an 
experiment in that aberration. 

858
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:27,880
Therefore it needs to kind of be
stamped out. 

859
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:29,840
The way it brings. 
Back to me. 

860
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:33,000
I won't kill each other. 
You just want to kill off the 

861
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:34,760
right people. 
It's the right. 

862
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:37,600
People you always envision 
themselves in charge. 

863
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:41,600
It. 
It's curious both them in 1619 

864
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,080
just separate non overlapping 
groups. 

865
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:50,760
But here's here's my question. 
JJD Vance is going to run on the

866
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:55,040
Republican ticket, I'm sure. 
How How does he survive? 

867
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:58,160
Because his opponents are going 
to come back and hang all of 

868
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:00,680
this around his neck. 
I, I hope they do. 

869
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:05,400
I think there's. 
There's no way JD Vance gets the

870
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:07,200
Republican nomination. 
No way. 

871
00:51:07,720 --> 00:51:11,120
Unfavorability rating right now 
is hovering about like 58 or 

872
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:15,280
60%. 
As long as Marco Rubio is alive 

873
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:19,000
and drawing breath, Vance will 
never see the head of that 

874
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,000
ticket. 
Somebody else might, right? 

875
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:24,880
But but Rubio will stand right 
in his way. 

876
00:51:25,240 --> 00:51:28,480
Look, I the, the fundamental 
question I, I would want to ask 

877
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:35,000
these fools is, is, is this. 
Look, I, I lived in a place that

878
00:51:35,240 --> 00:51:37,680
you're describing. 
It's Iraq. 

879
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:39,080
It's Iraq, yes. 
Yeah. 

880
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:43,800
You want to go there? 
Well, I've been in conversations

881
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:47,040
with other post liberals at 
academic conferences and things 

882
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:49,440
because they occasionally show 
up and sometimes they'll put 

883
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,400
them on the stage and try to 
explain what post liberalism is.

884
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,960
And while everyone else in the 
room is is actually a right 

885
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,880
liberal and corrupted by the the
spirit of individualism. 

886
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:03,520
But I asked a couple places of 
vast post liberals, what is the 

887
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:07,600
model society you envision? 
Are there any examples in the 

888
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:09,840
world both today and 
historically? 

889
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:12,520
Well, today, up until a few 
weeks ago, it was Viktor Orban. 

890
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:15,720
Sure. 
But the historical examples they

891
00:52:15,720 --> 00:52:17,960
give I think are are equally 
revealing. 

892
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:23,920
They say Salazars, Portugal and 
Francisco Franco's Spain. 

893
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:29,840
Holy. 
So the 1950s Iberian Peninsula, 

894
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:32,720
these were the soft fascists, 
the ones that were not drawn 

895
00:52:32,720 --> 00:52:36,000
into World War 2, that were 
were. 

896
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:39,800
And you know, for all the issues
that I'm not going to get into 

897
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:43,000
the politics of Iberia in the 
20th century, it was just a 

898
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,880
giant mess. 
There were terrible actors on 

899
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:49,320
the left, terrible actors on the
right, but you got essentially 2

900
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,440
dictatorships that emerged with 
Salazar and Franco. 

901
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:54,680
And they're very repressive 
societies. 

902
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:58,520
They're also economic 
backwaters, like left in 

903
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:01,920
stagnation for decades behind 
the rest of Western Europe. 

904
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:06,680
And it's only until the 1970s 
when these two characters or, or

905
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:10,920
they eventually die. 
And you know, Franco had always 

906
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:13,600
thought, well, I'm going to hand
my power back over to the heir 

907
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:15,280
to the Spanish throne, the king 
of Spain. 

908
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:18,960
He never bothered to check that 
the heir to the throne didn't 

909
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:23,840
want this illiberal autocracy 
that he had set up and, and, and

910
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:27,080
quickly becomes a, a 
constitutional monarch in a very

911
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:30,240
modern sense. 
So, so again, these people are 

912
00:53:30,240 --> 00:53:33,480
living in fantasy worlds. 
They, a lot of them are outright

913
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:36,320
monarchists. 
If you look in the Atlantic a 

914
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:40,120
few weeks ago, Gladden Papen, 
they verified this story that 

915
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:43,200
had been circulating for years. 
At some point during the first 

916
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:45,640
Trump term, I guess when he was 
doing the American Greatness 

917
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:50,000
blog, he was apparently at some 
conservative conference among 

918
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:53,920
academics and he started 
spouting this crazy conspiracy 

919
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:58,680
theory that claimed Pope Francis
was going to cancel the US 

920
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:04,640
elections and empower Donald 
Trump to name Melania Trump, who

921
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:08,760
was Catholic Queen of America, 
the Catholic Monarch of America 

922
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:12,240
and rule from there on out. 
And, and, and people were like, 

923
00:54:12,240 --> 00:54:15,040
are you, you're joking, right? 
He's no, this is going to 

924
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:17,240
happen. 
This is kind of the vibe. 

925
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:21,000
And then the updated versions of
it is there are people in the. 

926
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:26,280
This is like the Jehovah's 
Witnesses predicting the end of 

927
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:28,800
days, right? 
They pick another day and and 

928
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:32,160
kick it down the road. 
Right, it's so so the Pope 

929
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:35,200
doesn't cancel the election and 
then the like the the successor 

930
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:37,480
to this that you saw in some of 
the online post liberal 

931
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:40,160
communities. 
Well, the new Pope is going to 

932
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:43,760
anoint JD Vance as King of 
America and then we'll and he'll

933
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:47,120
install the the Catholic 
integralist monarchy that never 

934
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:49,640
bothering to ask if the Pope is 
at all interest. 

935
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:53,360
And it turns out the Pope is 
not, and the Pope's Nunzio 

936
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:56,160
specifically denounces this as 
authoritarian. 

937
00:54:56,520 --> 00:55:01,560
This has officially gotten too 
stupid for words and notes. 

938
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:07,440
It's the first time that's ever 
happened and we have talked 

939
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:09,760
about some dopey shit over the 
years. 

940
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:15,640
This is the first time I have 
ever had to say, and we're 

941
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:21,560
actually the only correct ending
to this is the aristocrats. 

942
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:26,200
And those of you who know the 
joke will get the joke. 

943
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,400
And those of you who don't know 
the joke, go learn the joke. 

944
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:34,960
But there we are. 
Phil, is there anything else you

945
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:37,120
might like to talk about? 
What are you up to these days? 

946
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:39,160
Anything you want to tell people
to go see? 

947
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:42,360
Well, you know, I always say 
check out my work at 

948
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:45,840
independent.org, check out my my
Twitter feed. 

949
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:49,600
I am doing some some 
intellectual stuff on trying to 

950
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:52,880
trace this lineage of how Carl 
Schmidt got rehabilitated. 

951
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:54,560
All right. 
I won't talk about that, right? 

952
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:58,800
Yeah, for another episode that 
it's an ugly story and the post 

953
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:02,240
liberals are part. 
And my, my people are also part 

954
00:56:02,240 --> 00:56:05,840
of this. 
Well, there look, there was a 

955
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:08,360
Schmidt Strauss correspondent. 
Yes, there was. 

956
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:11,160
Yeah. 
And and it and that's a serious 

957
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:14,600
thing. 
Yeah, comes out the better side 

958
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:17,640
of that correspondence. 
With the without question and I,

959
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:21,560
I wish he hadn't engaged in that
court at all, right? 

960
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:23,880
Would that would have been the 
better answer? 

961
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:27,400
But I, I will throw one last 
plug. 

962
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:30,320
Phil will be joining me here in 
Tucson. 

963
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:32,600
What is it? 
June 11th. 

964
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:34,280
I believe it is there about 
Phil. 

965
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:38,560
To, to talk about something or 
another at a nice place here in 

966
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:41,160
town. 
So if you happen to be nearby or

967
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:44,040
would like to come and visit and
hang out with both me and Phil 

968
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:51,960
Anthony's not invited Kamano and
and until then, Phil, thanks for

969
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:55,640
coming back. 
This was a walk through the 

970
00:56:55,640 --> 00:57:00,560
intellectual weeds. 
Yes, it was intellectual. 

971
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:05,880
Is it that's? 
I mean might have been. 

972
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:08,280
Smoking some of those weeds. 
These those are role theaters. 

973
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:14,000
Good God man, well I I do look 
forward to finding out who these

974
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:20,760
fools glom onto next because 
participants in a gravy train 

975
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:22,920
always go look for another gravy
train. 

976
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:26,760
Yeah, I suspect JD Mance is 
hiring. 

977
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:30,440
Well, you know, that's not going
to be profitable enough. 

978
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:33,560
They're going to need foreign 
coffers to fill their pockets. 

979
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:37,520
Well, look, the the the whole 
story was ridiculous enough, so 

980
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:41,600
I might as well throw out what's
the obvious next step after the 

981
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:46,200
nuncio saying that no, the Pope 
is not going to crown JD Vance 

982
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:49,000
king. 
And that is to pick up these 

983
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:55,160
what is the term, seductivists. 
Oh, the sediment, yes, the 

984
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:59,240
maintenance in, in the yeah, 
this this fringe. 

985
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:02,720
And fringe is too, is too 
inclusive a word here. 

986
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:08,120
Fringe groups, yeah, that 
believe that the papacy was not 

987
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:11,600
passed down correctly and 
therefore it does not sit with 

988
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:14,120
the current Pope. 
But there's actually this guy 

989
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:16,600
over here who lives in Wisconsin
or something, right? 

990
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:19,480
Is. 
The actual Pope, so they'll no 

991
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:23,240
doubt corral him to anoint JD 
Vance. 

992
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:27,000
Is King out there? 
I I think we should do our part 

993
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:29,360
to bring that about. 
I think that. 

994
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:33,520
That we should find you and have
him on as a guest. 

995
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:38,040
That would be the funniest 
possible outcome to all of this,

996
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:41,240
Phil. 
Need fully encourage it. 

997
00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:45,120
I, I, I can't. 
Good God, man. 

998
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:49,240
Every time you come, the subject
matter just gets Dumber. 

999
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:54,040
But deep down in my heart, I 
know somebody's going to do 

1000
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:56,360
something even Dumber than this.
Oh, yeah. 

1001
00:58:56,360 --> 00:58:58,200
And it's not going to. 
It's not going to be long. 

1002
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:00,280
It'll swing back to the Marxist 
soon enough. 

1003
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:05,720
Yeah, well, it always does. 
It always does. 

1004
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:08,040
And and when that happens, we'll
give you a call. 

1005
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:10,480
Thanks again, Phil, for for 
stopping by. 

1006
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:12,160
Always, always a pleasure.