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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to
the Business Brew. 

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I'm your host, Bill Brewster. 
This episode features Jeff 

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Collins of Cloverlay. 
Cloverlay is a firm that targets

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the fundamental value of 
tangible and intangible assets. 

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They are a private equity firm 
that buys assets. 

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This is my, my words, not 
theirs. 

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They buy assets and try to 
create uncorrelated outcomes in 

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private markets. 
And you know, I mean, I, I was 

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approached to feature Jeff and 
part of me was like, why would I

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do this on primarily a, a public
markets podcast? 

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And the reason is the podcast 
isn't supposed to just be 

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primarily public markets. 
That's kind of what it's 

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happened into and I think Jeff 
has an interesting approach. 

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It seems to me he's looking for 
assets at times when others are 

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really not interested in them. 
And then as the momentum in the 

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market builds, they look to 
exit. 

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Now that's again my words, not 
theirs. 

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And you will hear it in the 
conversation how he approaches 

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his investments. 
I will link to their firm in the

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show notes. 
And you know you can make make 

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your own decision as to whether 
or not how I frame this is 

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correct. 
But Long story short, I thought 

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it was a a good conversation and
a solid addition to the show. 

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So here it is. 
And as always, none of this is 

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financial advice. 
Everything in this program is 

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for entertainment purposes only.
Do your own due diligence and 

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please consult your financial 
advisor before making investment

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decisions. 
Enjoy the show. 

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All right. 
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to

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the Business Brew. 
As always, I'm your host, Bill 

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Brewster. 
Thrilled to be joined by Jeff 

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Collins today of Cloverley. 
Cloverley what? 

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What's the official firm title? 
I apologize. 

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Cloverley All right. 
That's it. 

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There you go. 
Keep it simple. 

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Well, that's fair. 
I, I, I went blank there. 

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So anyway, how's everything 
going? 

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Last time we were talking, you 
were going to a small golf 

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course in Georgia. 
If I don't if I recall. 

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Correctly. 
Sadly that is true. 

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Sadly my host cancelled on me 
the day before. 

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How brutal. 
And so that trip never happened 

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and very little golf has 
happened the entire spring. 

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So brutal. 
Probably a good thing that I 

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didn't go. 
Yeah, well, I don't think it's 

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ever a good thing not to go 
there. 

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Oh well, well. 
Hopefully next year, right? 

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It would have been fun, yeah. 
You make yourself an egg 

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sandwich at home. 
I just took care of myself and 

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came to the office and did my 
thing, you know all. 

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Right. 
Well, the. 

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Usual the boring. 
Not quite the same. 

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No, not at all. 
So do you want to set the the 

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context of who you are and what 
the firm does to kind of let 

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people know what they're 
listening to and then we'll get 

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into the conversation if that 
works? 

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Sure. 
And and thanks again for for 

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having me on. 
I appreciate the audience and 

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and I've been following what 
you've been doing for a while 

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and so it's a pleasure to be 
involved. 

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So I'm Jeff Collins, I'm the 
founder and managing partner of 

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Cloverlea. 
We're based here outside of 

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Philadelphia. 
We are 1.6 billion under 

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management, 18 people all 
focused exclusively on investing

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in esoteric niche private 
assets. 

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And when we say assets, we don't
mean operating businesses, we 

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mean assets tangible or 
intangible that fall between the

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cracks of the typical 
definitions of buyout, venture 

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growth, infrastructure, real 
estate. 

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And therefore, our commercial 
license is to provide family 

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offices, high net worth 
investors and institutional 

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investors access to private 
assets that are absent from 

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their current private 
portfolios. 

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It's a collection of niches. 
There's a lot of ground to 

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cover. 
There are fun stories behind 

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everything we've done and 
everything we haven't done. 

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And it's just a very difficult 
part of the world for most 

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institutions to digest on their 
own. 

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And so we are an resource 
extension for them to expand 

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their private portfolio and 
invest in a very predictable, 

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very uncorrelated way. 
It kind of doesn't matter what's

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happening elsewhere in the 
world. 

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Our assets perform in a very, 
very predictable way due to the 

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nature of the assets and the 
structure that we use and how we

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invest. 
So how when I hear that, my 

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first thought is, isn't 
everything kind of beta to a 

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certain extent, right? 
So how how do you have the the 

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performance be so uncorrelated 
like in AI? 

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Guess that's the question. 
Yeah. 

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I mean it's the initial screen 
when anything comes across our 

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desks is what are the embedded 
correlations in the following 

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opportunity. 
Have you ever looked at weather 

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futures? 
What are weather futures 

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correlated to? 
What about insurance related 

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strategies and structures that 
are dependent solely on the 

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weather? 
Not the S&P, not credit markets.

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OK. 
Intellectual property and things

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where you can not just buy but 
grow Global resilient licensing 

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and royalty streams forever and 
ever. 

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What are those correlated to? 
Because it's contractual, you 

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are getting paid. 
So we look for everything has 

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some kind of correlation. 
And so as we build portfolios, 

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you'll see 12 or 15 different 
investments inside any of our 

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portfolios. 
They have nothing to do with 

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each other and collectively they
behave in a very uncorrelated 

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way despite any embedded small 
correlation they may have. 

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We don't invest in 0 beta 
private equity trades. 

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That doesn't really exist. 
There's always a correlation to 

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something. 
But the portfolio management 

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challenge and what we think 
we've done with good success is 

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to manage the collection of 
betas in a very, very 

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responsible way and provide 
investors with exposure that is 

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incredibly difficult or 
impossible to access themselves 

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or elsewhere, frankly. 
All right, that that makes some 

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sense to me because so one thing
on your on your website and I 

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apologize if I mess this up I 
don't have it in front of me, 

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but I believe that there is like
sports is it team rights or is 

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it sports rights? 
There's something that is that's

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involved in sports. 
And when I was looking at it, I 

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was thinking, OK, well, in a 
sense that's kind of like 

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correlated to global liquidity. 
If sort of one of my ways I 

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think about sports teams is kind
of like just a trophy asset. 

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So it's kind of like correlated 
with the wealth effect 

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especially. 
I don't know. 

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Anyway, that's kind of what I 
was thinking, but it's, it 

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sounds like the way that you're 
approaching it. 

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And what you're telling me is 
that may be that that particular

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asset may have a correlation to 
one thing that I'm thinking 

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about. 
But when you put the the 

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portfolio together, it's a 
collection of private assets 

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that are largely uncorrelated. 
Is that? 

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Fair Sports is a helpful example
and representative of a decent 

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percentage of of the portfolios 
we've assembled over the last 10

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years, which was a point in time
opportunity that we have since 

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moved on from. 
And the point in time and part 

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of our responsibility given our 
mandate and what we hold out to 

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investors is to invest in the 
big four sports in 2020 when all

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the stadiums are empty and 
closed. 

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That was a unique point in time 
with a massive Tam with 0 

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institutional dollars in it. 
Now, what are the meteor rights?

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Which are the vast majority of 
any franchise's revenue? 

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What are meteor rights 
correlated to? 

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NBC credit will take that all 
day and also benefit from all of

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the ancillary assets around a 
franchise. 

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Sometimes it's an owned stadium.
You can do things with the 

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stadium. 
You know, sometimes it's 

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adjacent real estate for 
available for development, 

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commercial, residential. 
You can do a lot of things 

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around a franchise that's been 
built in the right way. 

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And so with an operating 
partner, we were able to invest 

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in MLB in the earliest days, 
invest in NBA in the earliest 

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days, NHL in the earliest days. 
Just saying. 2020 the earliest. 

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Days 20 in 2020. 
Yeah, right. 

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And then Fast forward five years
and your listeners should take a

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very close look at any of the 
four NFL funds that are being 

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raised right now because it's 
early days in the NFL. 

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But we have exposure to two of 
the three first NFL deals and 

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we're probably done because it's
an, it's a the capital is 

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coming. 
The asset or collection of 

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assets inside any franchise 
demonstrate the the profile of 

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return that we're looking for, 
which is long term resilient. 

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Now European soccer is a very, 
very different equation. 

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The rules of the road, who's 
allowed to buy, how you can 

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capitalize, mini club, it's it's
wild out there. 

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And we've looked at a lot and 
we've done exactly 0 and then a 

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lot of start up leagues. 
We don't believe that there's an

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infinite number of $500 million 
contracts that ESPN is giving to

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all these upstart sports. 
So as it relates to sports, we 

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focused on the core of the core 
in a completely unique asset 

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that 0 institutional investors 
on planet Earth had exposure to,

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and we did that in 2020 and 
moved on. 

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So why, why do you get the call 
there? 

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Why don't? 
Why aren't they calling like 

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Blackstone and then that 
instance? 

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You can speak with some of the 
other investors in the space 

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about how the league selected 
their approved partners because 

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it's an incredibly complicated, 
almost a government style. 

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Like in terms of regulation, you
can't bend the leagues to your 

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will because of the size of your
checkbook. 

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You will play by their rules. 
And so the earliest days in BIG4

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sports, they selected the best 
purpose built partners and then 

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slowly but surely have opened 
the gates to allow other 

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institutional capital to come in
in the right way. 

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But first mover advantage in 
that space was a very, very real

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thing. 
If you we look at valuations 

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five years later, it's a pretty 
compelling story. 

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There are a number of other 
segments that we've invested in 

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where not necessarily first 
mover advantage, but being well 

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ahead of the institutional wave 
of capital that comes in like we

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were investors and a unique 
profile of data center and also 

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in data center adjacent hard 
assets like dark fiber, things 

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like that. 
Ten years ago. 

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Data centers, there's a massive 
tailwind behind data centers. 

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There is no shortage of capital 
coming to the data center space 

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today and everything that 
touches it. 

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Our job was to have done it in 
2015 and 16, not in 2025 because

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our investors can do it 
themselves now. 

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Now there are very, very 
responsible hands and you know, 

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a long list of responsible 
hands. 

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That's a, that's a playground we
don't really like to mess around

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with. 
We'd rather be in front when the

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assets are misunderstood, the 
processes are opaque, pricing is

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also opaque. 
And so if you understand the 

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actual asset you are buying and 
you understand what you might be

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able to do with it, that's a 
very interesting entry point 

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when everything is frothy and 
everyone is paying attention. 

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Despite this, or maybe because 
of this massive tailwind, it's 

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still an interesting thesis. 
But that's not the Clover lay 

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mandate. 
We're not momentum investors. 

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You won't, you won't find us 
investing in AI. 

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There are things around AI that 
might be relevant, but we're 

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not. 
We're not growth investors. 

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We're a very boring, 
uncorrelated March to an 

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interesting return. 
That's it. 

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So are you, I mean like I don't 
have the exact institutional 

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style boxes or classification. 
So I'm, I'm going to mess up 

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specifics here, but perhaps I'm 
I'm directionally accurate, if 

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not precise. 
So it sounds OK. 

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00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,920
So it sounds to me like you're 
early in a sort of the capital 

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flow of an asset class is at 
least one way you target to get 

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returns. 
Is that fair or no? 

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Yeah. 
I mean, that's fair. 

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Not always. 
We're not always trying to look 

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around the corner and, you know,
shine up our crystal balls. 

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That's been the case in a few 
situations. 

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But our prototypical deal is we 
are galvanizing the acquisition 

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of truly unique assets in an era
where we can do something with 

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those assets to create an 
asymmetric return. 

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And a lot of investors don't 
believe that asymmetric returns 

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exist. 
But we would argue that when 

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you're buying an asset, not a 
business whose EBITDA can go to 

232
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,800
zero and people start stealing 
their computers, but an asset, 

233
00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:11,080
tangible or intangible with no 
leverage and then reposition 

234
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:15,160
that asset based on what is 
happening in the world. 

235
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,760
Over the course of four or five 
or six years, you've contained 

236
00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:22,080
your downside because you bought
a thing that has a value. 

237
00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:24,520
But if the world behaves in a 
certain set of ways that we 

238
00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,400
believe is possible, you 
absolutely have exposure to the 

239
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,200
right hand tail of equity that 
is an asymmetric return. 

240
00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:34,080
They're just really hard to find
and if to turn over a lot of 

241
00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:40,160
rocks, drill a lot of dry holes 
to make your 5 or 6 investments 

242
00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,160
per year in truly interesting 
assets. 

243
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:47,320
I mean, we, we've, we've dug a 
lot of dry holes and ended up 

244
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,680
spending tons of time in a 
number of segments and never 

245
00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,920
found it actionable. 
But were it to become 

246
00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:59,000
actionable, we have an 80% 
running head start because we 

247
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:00,880
live in these spaces all the 
time. 

248
00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:06,200
There are other sort of 
proactive searches that resulted

249
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:10,560
in investments and it's things 
like it's sort of a corollary to

250
00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:16,000
the non performing loan world 
specific to Brazil given some 

251
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,800
changes that have happened in 
the regulatory framework in 

252
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:23,040
Brazil in the last decade or so.
Brazil's judicial system is 

253
00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,120
absolutely first world. 
And so when you're talking about

254
00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:30,320
legal assets, it is an 
investable country. 

255
00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,320
Now, there are a lot of things 
in Brazil that are still a bit 

256
00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,120
spicier and more sort of on the 
emerging market side. 

257
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,840
But there's a particular 
financial asset, intangible 

258
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:44,400
asset, where it is factoring 
claims to the federal government

259
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:49,120
after the payment has been put 
into the federal budget 2 years 

260
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:50,680
from now. 
And it can't be changed. 

261
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:55,200
But the problem is the claimant 
could really use the cash right 

262
00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,400
now. 
Yeah, that makes sense. 

263
00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:59,840
And so if you have a purpose 
built partner on the ground that

264
00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:03,040
understands the market and you 
understand the market, that was 

265
00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,480
a point in time trade that now 
is resident in a lot of credit 

266
00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,880
funds and returns have collapsed
from 2 times money to a levered 

267
00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,560
9% return. 
We see that happen a lot. 

268
00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,240
So that would be an example of 
sort of being at the front end. 

269
00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:21,520
But there are there are a lot of
instances where we spend a lot 

270
00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:23,640
of time and just can't ever get 
there. 

271
00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,800
But everything is worth the time
because the world changes. 

272
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:29,680
And every three years it's a 
brand new world and things that 

273
00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:34,720
used to be boring for 10 plus 
years suddenly has something 

274
00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,600
interesting happening and we see
it regularly and that's why we 

275
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,280
have so much ground to cover and
a big enough team to do it. 

276
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,240
Every three years seems like an 
extended time in the in this day

277
00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:47,920
and age, it's like every 12 
months. 

278
00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:49,880
A new world every three weeks? 
Exactly. 

279
00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,600
That's interesting. 
How do you how do you come about

280
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:54,280
C band? 
What happened there? 

281
00:16:54,840 --> 00:17:01,320
So C band is the C band and C 
band related are the 3rd and 4th

282
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,800
wireless spectrum auctions that 
we've participated in. 

283
00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:09,160
Going back to my history and 
several of our histories at 

284
00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,599
Morgan Stanley Investment 
Management, we in a group called

285
00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:14,560
Alternative Investment Partners,
AIP. 

286
00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:19,480
We were large early investors in
a number of different corners of

287
00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:24,520
telecom infrastructure writ 
broad like cell phone tower roll

288
00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:30,960
ups in 2001, not 2023 cable 
around the world, a number of 

289
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,280
other pockets. 
And one of the things we spent a

290
00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:37,480
lot of time on were these 
episodic FCC run wireless 

291
00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:38,920
spectrum options in the United 
States. 

292
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,080
And we love the asset. 
And it's a, it's a really 

293
00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,920
interesting sort of game theory 
case study where you look at the

294
00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:49,880
participants of the auction. 
The auction has incredibly 

295
00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:51,920
strict rules. 
That's something that we like a 

296
00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:53,280
lot. 
And why is that? 

297
00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:54,160
You have. 
What's up? 

298
00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:55,640
Why do you like the rules being 
so? 

299
00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,640
Because it keeps the tourist 
investors out. 

300
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,680
That makes sense. 
Because you cannot violate the 

301
00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:03,640
rules. 
I mean, the penalties are like 

302
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,440
unbelievably bad. 
And so you have a playing field 

303
00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:12,960
that's populated by Verizon, 
AT&T and the largest in the 

304
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:18,160
world, and a handful of $100 
million private vehicles. 

305
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:23,040
So you've got speed boats that 
in theory can outmaneuver the 

306
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,560
oil tankers. 
And the rules of the auction 

307
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:30,200
favor the little guy. 
And every auction sequentially 

308
00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,000
the auctions have gotten more 
and more favorable to the little

309
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,720
guy if you can satisfy some 
very, very strict rules. 

310
00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,640
And so we participated after 
setting up Clover Lane, we 

311
00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:44,520
participated in 600 megahertz 
600. 

312
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,280
For people that haven't spent 
that much time in wireless 

313
00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,520
spectrum, I always use the 
example. 

314
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:57,320
If you you start a conference 
call with no video from your 

315
00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:01,320
bathroom in the morning, and 
then you get dressed and then 

316
00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,920
you get in your car and you 
drive to your office and you 

317
00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,240
park and then you get in the 
elevator. 

318
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,720
And then you come up and then 
you sit down at your desk. 

319
00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,360
Then you hang up your call. 
Your call probably used six or 

320
00:19:12,360 --> 00:19:15,600
seven different bands of 
spectrum at different times 

321
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,120
during that call. 
So there's a there's a use case 

322
00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:21,080
for all different kinds of 
spectrum. 600 happens to travel 

323
00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,440
over extremely long distances 
and penetrate buildings very, 

324
00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,680
very well. 
Yeah, but it doesn't carry that 

325
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:28,720
much data. 
Yeah, it's a little slower. 

326
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,360
The second auction we 
participated in at Cloverlea was

327
00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:37,040
millimeter wave, which is the 
exact opposite of 600 which is 

328
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,720
it carries all the data. 
But it doesn't go through 

329
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,160
anything. 
It only travels 100 yards, so 

330
00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,280
what's the use case for that? 
Wireless to the home right now, 

331
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:50,960
but eventually autonomous drive.
Yeah, you have to have 

332
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,360
millimeter wave for autonomous 
driving to actually be a thing 

333
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,600
where all eight cars at a 
stoplight can function. 

334
00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,600
It has to use millimeter wave. 
So C band was sort of the 

335
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,440
natural corollary. 
We skipped one in the middle, 

336
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,440
but C band is the everybody 
knows the backbone of of 5G and 

337
00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:10,120
because of the rules of the 
auction. 

338
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:15,720
You know, Google or Comcast or 
AT&T can't. 

339
00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,840
They're not allowed to just show
up and outspend everyone and buy

340
00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,000
the country. 
They're limited in what they're 

341
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,040
able to buy and wear, which 
means the speed boats are able 

342
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:29,240
to think very strategically with
a value lens to say, where do I 

343
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,360
want to be focused? 
We can let the big guys beat 

344
00:20:32,360 --> 00:20:36,920
each other up in Boston, Chicago
and New York and for pennies, 

345
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:42,080
but to really fractions of 
pennies per megahertz pop per 

346
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,680
person. 
Basically, we can buy college 

347
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,240
towns, we can buy army bases. 
So we cover the map. 

348
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:52,720
Step one for the incumbents is 
you must have key markets. 

349
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:54,320
That's clear. 
So we stay out of the 

350
00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:58,280
incumbent's way, but they also 
need to have cities 40 through 

351
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,560
150 eventually. 
And so that's the way Spectrum 

352
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,280
is played out over time. 
And it's been a very fruitful 

353
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,480
exercise for us. 
There are no more options 

354
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,240
scheduled despite recent 
headlines, no more options 

355
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,920
scheduled for the next 5 years. 
It's a really, really involved 

356
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,400
process. 
So we own an incredibly scarce 

357
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,360
asset. 
It's real estate in the sky. 

358
00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:24,280
And whoever you pay your mobile 
bill to, they have to either own

359
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,520
or lease our spectrum. 
They don't have another option. 

360
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:32,320
So we own the core asset upon 
which very large industries are 

361
00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:36,480
built that they can't own yet or
they can't know. 

362
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:42,360
How how regulated is the pricing
on that that you can lease it 

363
00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:44,720
out to? 
Pricing, it's not regulated, 

364
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:50,000
it's bilateral. 
And so but it's a fairly known 

365
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,000
market. 
Like you sort of know where you 

366
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,040
are. 
There are a lot of comps given 

367
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,240
your demographic, whatever your 
zip code is that you own, it's 

368
00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,360
not really a zip code, but it's 
basically a zip code. 

369
00:21:59,960 --> 00:22:02,480
And so there's there's a known 
market. 

370
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:08,960
And so the question becomes how 
well did you buy it and what is 

371
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,480
your operating partners 
relationship with the eventual 

372
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,960
owners or lessees of what you 
now own. 

373
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,920
That's how you turn an 
intangible asset with a very 

374
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:24,120
clear value into the right hand 
tail of equity is navigating 

375
00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:30,000
that that transaction dynamic 
over a period of five years, six

376
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,040
years. 
How many people own that like 

377
00:22:33,360 --> 00:22:35,360
the spectrum in a given zip 
code? 

378
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,960
In the zip code, well, every zip
code has all the different bands

379
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,160
and the different bands have 
different owners. 

380
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:45,920
And so it's it's sort of a, a 
patchwork. 

381
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,400
If you look at a map of the 
United States, it is a patchwork

382
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,800
of different owners. 
And eventually the biggest 

383
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,960
owners get bigger and bigger and
bigger. 

384
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,000
And they buy all of the spectrum
because they need it, they must 

385
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,760
have it, and they would rather 
own it than lease it whenever 

386
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,400
they can afford it and whenever 
the government allows them to. 

387
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,880
So it's a, it's an interesting, 
as I said, sort of game theory 

388
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,760
study of who behaves in what 
way. 

389
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:14,040
Where does value lie? 
If it lies or I can choose to 

390
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:15,320
buy nothing. 
Wow. 

391
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,960
So truly is, you know, you start
at 9:00 AM. 

392
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,680
The second round starts at 11 AM
and the third round starts at 2.

393
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,640
And so you have to have all your
chips on the table at all times,

394
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,200
otherwise you lose your chips 
that you acquired through the 

395
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,800
very rigorous sort of screening 
and qualification process. 

396
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,840
And so it's a, it's a 
fascinating, fascinating 

397
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:39,560
dynamic. 
And we've looked at it in other 

398
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:41,760
countries, they run their 
auctions in a different way, 

399
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,960
mostly favoring sort of the 
national carrier or carriers and

400
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:47,520
just saying this is the easy way
to do it. 

401
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,240
Let's just do that. 
And probably a shortage of 

402
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,000
private capital, but we need the
rules. 

403
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,200
We need to understand the rules 
and not just show up in Finland 

404
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,680
and attempt to compete against 
an incumbent when you know, the 

405
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,680
FCC equivalent in Finland 
doesn't want little guys to own 

406
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:04,320
spectrum in the United States, 
they do. 

407
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,040
That's why it's been an 
opportunity for us. 

408
00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:08,440
How does the auction? 
Does the highest price end up 

409
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,880
winning or is it? 
The highest price at the end of 

410
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,320
the day, and what you'll find is
that you become the winning bid 

411
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,200
and nobody else out bids you 
because they're taking their 

412
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,400
chips to another zip code 
somewhere else. 

413
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:23,200
And so it becomes over time, and
the auctions will last six 

414
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:24,840
months. 
At the long end, what you'll 

415
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,360
find is you know what you own 
slowly but surely in the back 

416
00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:31,000
half of the auction. 
And then you'll see some 

417
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,120
interesting behavior in the last
minutes. 

418
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:37,680
But typically you kind of know 
what all of the participants are

419
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,720
going to do. 
And for context specifically in 

420
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,840
600 and this is imminently 
findable through the FCC 

421
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:53,040
website, I believe there were 35
approved bidders in that 

422
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:59,200
particular auction and it was 
everything from us up to AT&T 

423
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,240
and Verizon and the and the 
other big ones. 

424
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,640
Interesting. 
That's neat. 

425
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:06,480
What what got you into dark 
fiber? 

426
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,160
I would assume when you were 
buying dark fiber that was not a

427
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:13,240
very loved asset class. 
It would, I mean when we 

428
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:18,480
invested in dark fiber, it was 
the very, very earliest days of 

429
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:23,280
the predictable rise of data 
center as its own asset class. 

430
00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:26,400
Yeah, what are we talking like 
2015? 

431
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:31,080
20/15/2016. 
And I mean like Zao still had a 

432
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:32,400
ton of trouble through that 
time. 

433
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,800
Well, Zao Zao's an interesting 
example and one that we were 

434
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,680
very, very familiar with in our 
in our old days where Zao's dark

435
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,000
fiber and the other fiber, the 
lit fiber that they owned were 

436
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,320
mostly centered around cell 
phone towers as opposed to data 

437
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:50,800
centers. 
Not that's not a global comment,

438
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,240
but it's a generalization the 
evolution of the data center 

439
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:55,920
market and how much capital was 
coming in. 

440
00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:00,520
The easiest first port of call 
for real estate funds or 

441
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,480
developers that would go on to 
become publicly traded reeds. 

442
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,720
The easiest port of call was the
pejorative phrase in the spaces 

443
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,680
building a cold box in Nevada 
and hoping to sign up lessees 

444
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,920
OK, because they need to be in 
Nevada and I hope I can find 

445
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,760
them. 
That was sort of version why? 

446
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,280
Do they have to be in Nevada? 
Well, Nevada is sort of a node 

447
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,680
between Phoenix and the West 
Coast and you need a lot of 

448
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,600
nodes to connect everything. 
And that gets to our dark fiber,

449
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,000
which our dark, dark fiber 
investment, which was being in 

450
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,360
and around the competitive 
nature of data centers and the 

451
00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:40,480
behavior and the nature of the 
participants. 

452
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,680
We saw that they were focused on
the boxes and the boxes have to 

453
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,760
talk to each other. 
And so if that's data centers, 

454
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,000
one point O creeping into two 
point O, which is when the hyper

455
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,480
scalers came in and said you 
will build it looking like this 

456
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,640
and I am 100% of your capacity. 
You just got a great deal. 

457
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:00,720
So you don't have a cold box 
you're hoping to fill. 

458
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,800
It's you're building the box for
the hyper scaler. 

459
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,680
That's the beginning of two 
point O dark fiber. 

460
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,840
One point O was really, I mean 
it was an infrastructure slash 

461
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,200
venture investment. 
It was municipality by 

462
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:19,720
municipality approval to dig 
holes to put APVC pipe in the 

463
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,480
ground beside the road with dark
fiber in it. 

464
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,720
And the dark fiber is critical. 
I mean, the, the parallel for, 

465
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,680
for people that haven't spent 
time in the in in the space is 

466
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,960
when you leave home and go to 
the airport, sometimes it takes 

467
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,600
you 20 minutes, but if it's rush
hour, it takes you an hour. 

468
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,320
That's lit fiber. 
It's shared. 

469
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,000
Sometimes it's busy, sometimes 
it's fast. 

470
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,760
Security is good, but not 
perfect. 

471
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:51,440
Dark fiber is your own lane on 
the highway 24 hours a day, 

472
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,920
every single day. 
And so as you creep into data 

473
00:27:54,920 --> 00:28:01,360
center 2 point O in 2016, the 
hyperscalers were demanding dark

474
00:28:01,360 --> 00:28:06,160
fiber and not very many people 
could provide dark fiber. 

475
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,480
And so we said, OK, looks like 
data centers are or the capital 

476
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,840
coming to data centers the way 
sort of like the way we did it 

477
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,680
initially is crowding us out and
it's time to move on. 

478
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,400
But what are the 2nd and 3rd 
order investment opportunities 

479
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:25,440
around this secular trend that 
are still assets that we can own

480
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:29,720
that have been underdeveloped, 
under exploited or can be 

481
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,480
repositioned? 
Can we do something interesting 

482
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,040
in this space? 
And so we ended up having a very

483
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,120
successful dark fiber 
investment, mostly in Northern 

484
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,120
Virginia, almost all on the East
Coast. 

485
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,240
Just the interconnectivity to 
allow all of these new data 

486
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,120
centers to speak to each other, 
you have to have that. 

487
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:51,160
And the big providers of capital
didn't understand necessarily 

488
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,480
the dark fiber world and the 
level of priority for their next

489
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,520
new customer. 
They demanded dark fiber and the

490
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,200
provider of the data center 
didn't have any. 

491
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:02,880
And then they turned us because 
we had it. 

492
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:08,000
So what happened? 
I mean, if if you go back to 99 

493
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:12,080
right, people were just laying 
fiber sort of speculatively I I 

494
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,680
believe right is where. 
There's a lot of fiber to the 

495
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,840
home back then because data 
centers weren't really a Bing at

496
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:20,360
the time. 
I mean, there were some, but it 

497
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,640
wasn't, it was really fiber. 
It was more like cable, 

498
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,040
honestly. 
It was how can I, how can I get 

499
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,680
fast transmission into a hub 
like, you know, Dallas so that I

500
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,240
can then serve the last mile? 
That's where a lot of the local 

501
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,360
sort of cable businesses got 
tripped up. 

502
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,440
Others were very, very 
successful at doing so because 

503
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,240
of their footprint is how do I 
actually get to the house? 

504
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,640
Like, I got the fast stuff 
almost to the house. 

505
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,240
It's so expensive to get it to 
the house. 

506
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,400
Yeah, go back to spectrum. 
Now you can have a telephone 

507
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,360
pole that shoots spectrum from 
the very fast dark fiber to the 

508
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,960
homes in a one mile radius. 
Yeah, no one knew that that was 

509
00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:03,480
possible in 1999, but it's 
definitely possible today. 

510
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,880
So you bought the dark fiber 
that you bought was already in 

511
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:09,480
the ground. 
Obviously, you didn't lay it. 

512
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,840
Yeah, yeah. 
It was the that was the 

513
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:17,760
infrastructure slash venture 
stage where it probably looked 

514
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,400
like and ended up being very 
successful investment from the 

515
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,320
guys that we that we purchased 
it from. 

516
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,280
But it was probably underwritten
to a venture like return and it 

517
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,760
ended up being a very, very 
solid buyout like return with a 

518
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,320
lot of infrastructure like work.
And So what we ended up 

519
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:40,360
purchasing was critical 
infrastructure operating at 9% 

520
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:44,560
capacity. 
And so our job from that point 

521
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,960
forward with our operating 
partner was how do you fill the 

522
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:48,760
pipe? 
What's the right skill set? 

523
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,280
What's the right operating 
partner who is able to fill the 

524
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,120
pipe through existing 
relationships, not just being a 

525
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,520
financial buyer or something 
that looks like a utility today,

526
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:00,840
like older dark fiber, that's a 
utility. 

527
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:02,960
It's very attractive utility, 
but it's not growing. 

528
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,040
It's just incredibly predictable
and nothing's ever going to go 

529
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,360
wrong with it. 
But you won't make three times 

530
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:12,320
money investing in dark fiber, 
existing dark fiber. 

531
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:18,800
And so mapping the opportunity 
with the skill set that we think

532
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:24,200
is required to reposition and 
improve that actual asset was, 

533
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:29,520
you know, primary to our 
underwriting and how we view the

534
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,280
space because there there's dark
fiber in a lot of places. 

535
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,080
And so you can, if you want to 
torture the spectrum analogy, 

536
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,960
you know, you can do it in rural
areas of the United States and 

537
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,960
hope that Kansas City grows to 
the West in your favor or the 

538
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,040
north or whatever it is. 
Or you can buy the center of the

539
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,560
universe in data centers in 
Northern Virginia before people 

540
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,600
show up. 
That's what we end up doing. 

541
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,360
Yeah, well, the thought process 
makes sense. 

542
00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:00,320
That's interesting. 
So I don't mean to like belabor 

543
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,560
this, but so like basically when
you own dark fiber, you've got a

544
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,640
pipe and then well, there's like
call it 100 strands that go 

545
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,120
through it and 9 released up, 
but then you had to go figure 

546
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,680
out the other 91. 
Right, lease them up on 10 or 12

547
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:18,000
or 15 year leases to those hyper
scale tenants who who demand 

548
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,680
their own lane on the highway. 
But important to say, we're not 

549
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:22,840
margins telecom investors, but. 
No, I know. 

550
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,960
I just. 
It's a perfect example of an 

551
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:31,080
incredibly large industry built 
upon core assets that AT&T 

552
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,000
doesn't necessarily own, but 
they must use. 

553
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:38,000
So who owns those assets? 
Well, you're, you're also being 

554
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,640
a little pigeonholed by me as an
interviewer because I am pretty 

555
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,960
interested in telecom. 
I've, I've, I've followed it for

556
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,800
a while, but you know, when it 
gets into the nitty gritty of 

557
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:48,480
infrastructure, I don't really 
understand. 

558
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,040
Like I can't talk about which 
routes are the best routes to 

559
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:55,800
own, right, but I do, I do like 
telecom quite a bit. 

560
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:57,760
It's. 
Fascinating. 

561
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,160
So that's interesting, man. 
So how you started out, you said

562
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,200
at Morgan Stanley? 
Morgan Stanley Investment 

563
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,760
Management, I joined Morgan 
Stanley in 2001. 

564
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:12,040
That was about a year after our 
group and it's diagonally across

565
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:13,680
the street. 
So I was on the Zooms. 

566
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:15,760
I find myself pointing over my 
shoulder. 

567
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:17,960
It's over there. 
They have an amazing business 

568
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,400
and it's run by my dear friend 
Neil Markel and they continue to

569
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,960
do a great job. 
But and it was this collection 

570
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,200
of niche uncorrelated assets. 
We also did buyouts. 

571
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,480
We also did venture. 
We did, we did kind of 

572
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,440
everything on a global basis. 
And so the reason to to step out

573
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,560
and set up Cloverleigh was to 
have a purpose built firm to 

574
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:42,040
provide institutional investors 
and family offices direct access

575
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,200
to a responsible portfolio of 
these assets that they don't 

576
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,000
own. 
Because sometimes people ask 

577
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,160
what our competition is for 
capital. 

578
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,880
The competition is someone 
saying in 2025, never heard of 

579
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,680
pharmaceutical royalty funds 
before. 

580
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,760
That seems like a resilient 
uncorrelated return. 

581
00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:04,120
I guess I'll invest in the $3 
billion pharmaceutical royalty 

582
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,560
one that's sitting on my desk. 
So like a laser shot into one 

583
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,920
particular asset that has the 
attributes of what we do. 

584
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,360
But if you look at the 
collection of things that we do,

585
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,639
we would argue that that's more 
responsible exposure. 

586
00:34:18,679 --> 00:34:23,000
If lack of correlation and 
return are your two objectives, 

587
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,360
A portfolio approach is the 
right approach. 

588
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,400
And so that's how we've designed
the firm. 

589
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,480
And we only do one thing like we
don't have a credit fund, we 

590
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,760
don't have an Evergreen fund. 
We have 18 people focus solely 

591
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,679
on the main event, looking for 
the most interesting things that

592
00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:42,960
we can do in the world and are 
moving forward and excited about

593
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:44,520
what's happening for the rest of
the year. 

594
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,800
So you brought up the 
pharmaceutical royalties. 

595
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,239
Are you looking at like biotech 
royalties too? 

596
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:58,160
I mean, we, we see a lot, but 
that's a, I mean after music 

597
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,840
publishing rights, it's probably
the most heavily trafficked 

598
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:06,560
really interesting asset that we
love that we'll never again get 

599
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:08,440
there on price. 
But we want to see all of it. 

600
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,160
We want to make sure nothing has
changed. 

601
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,480
And there have been a few I 
mentioned earlier, there have 

602
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,800
been a few asset segments where 
the world did change 

603
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,600
specifically like litigation 
finance. 

604
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,800
Like we litigation finance is a 
really boring, incredibly 

605
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:27,760
competitive cottage industry for
a really long time, which is 

606
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:33,080
weird is like lots and lots of 
$100 million funds fighting over

607
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:37,960
the same $15 million deals in 
complex commercial. 

608
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:43,800
Litigation finance was basically
like small guy sues big guy for 

609
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:45,560
stealing their trademark 
basically. 

610
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:49,120
And big guy says, well, I'll 
just out lawyer you and get a 

611
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,640
lower settlement. 
But then when there's ostensibly

612
00:35:51,720 --> 00:35:55,560
a check backing the little guy, 
you have more weight and improve

613
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,720
the value of your settlement. 
We've never invested in complex 

614
00:35:58,720 --> 00:36:02,000
commercial but and so a lot of 
people stop paying attention to 

615
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:06,080
litigation finance, but it's 
fascinating, very, very dynamic 

616
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,640
place globally, not just in the 
United States. 

617
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,520
And a couple of different things
happened in litigation that we 

618
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,480
have acted on. 
So the kiss of death to all of 

619
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,840
those, you know, first 
generation litigation finance 

620
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,280
groups that did a very, very 
good job. 

621
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,720
The kiss of death was duration. 
And the time to resolution in 

622
00:36:25,720 --> 00:36:30,600
these cases, yeah, almost across
the board, outstripped even the 

623
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,800
most conservative estimates of 
how long it was going to take to

624
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,760
adjudicate and settle or 
adjudicate and receive a reward.

625
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,680
And so you've got this enormous 
cottage and industry with 

626
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,760
virtually no realizations so. 
Interesting. 

627
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,720
That's an existential crisis for
those firms because they can't 

628
00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:52,120
raise Fund 3. 
Yeah, everybody wants their 

629
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:53,720
money back before they're 
committing. 

630
00:36:53,720 --> 00:36:57,560
Yeah, no doubt, no doubt. 
So the first innovation was 

631
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:03,320
direct secondaries in litigation
finance, not buying LP interests

632
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:10,600
in old funds, buying the cases 
from the original fund owners. 

633
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:16,720
Show me your portfolio. 
I'll take those six, I'll pay 

634
00:37:16,720 --> 00:37:19,280
you a fair price. 
But I just collapsed my whole 

635
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,640
period in a huge, huge way. 
And the fund wants to do it 

636
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:24,280
because then they can return 
capital. 

637
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,600
They can return capital and then
Fund 3 actually has a chance to 

638
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:29,640
get off the ground and they're 
getting a fair price because 

639
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,200
they've made progress over the 
last six or seven or nine years.

640
00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:36,280
But that was an innovation. 
And then the second was 

641
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,080
regulatory in nature. 
And again, we don't invest in 

642
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,360
anticipation of regulatory 
changes, but we love rules. 

643
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,840
And there is a like shockingly 
almost seismic regulatory change

644
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:51,160
in the state of Arizona coming 
up on three years ago, not quite

645
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:56,360
where for the first time in U.S.
history, institutional investors

646
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,920
are allowed with very, very 
strict rules to participate 

647
00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:03,320
directly in the economics of a 
law firm. 

648
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:08,680
Not a case. 
How large is the US legal 

649
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,840
industry? 
Yeah, it's pretty big. 

650
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:16,760
And until 2 1/2 years ago, it 
was 100% owned by individuals 

651
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:23,400
who had passed a State Bar exam.
That is inefficient and so yeah.

652
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,720
It's kind of wild, yeah. 
Like Sidley should be a publicly

653
00:38:25,720 --> 00:38:27,520
traded company. 
Or well, but there are a lot of 

654
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:29,240
rules. 
I mean, sort of like pro sports,

655
00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:32,320
like the league. 
In this case, the bar will say, 

656
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,840
well, you can't just we're not 
gonna have like a roll up of 

657
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,840
dentist offices. 
Yeah, you know, that's not what 

658
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,400
we're doing with financial 
owners making. 

659
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,160
Yeah, financial owners making 
all legal decisions. 

660
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,600
So it's very, very similar to 
the big four US sports where 

661
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:51,960
you're constrained by the 
percentage that you can own. 

662
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,920
You're severely constrained in 
terms of the influence you can 

663
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:57,880
have. 
You are not operating this 

664
00:38:57,880 --> 00:38:59,920
business. 
You're not allowed to because we

665
00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:03,760
didn't pass VAR exit. 
But if you do your work and you 

666
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:07,080
understand the entirety of the 
opportunity set around the 

667
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,520
people that you can partner with
and what you would like your 

668
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:14,800
approach to this newly 
actionable asset, intangible 

669
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:21,600
asset to be, that's a pretty 
interesting uncorrelated return.

670
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:26,480
And so we were alongside a well 
known Midwestern endowment. 

671
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,760
We were either the 1st or the 
second, I would argue the first 

672
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,160
of course, but either the 1st or
the 2nd institutional investor 

673
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,800
to participate directly in the 
economics of the law firm. 

674
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:39,160
That's pretty interesting. 
Roll forward two years, we've 

675
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:43,000
seen, I don't know, 30-5 
different opportunities in the 

676
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,560
same space at pricing that we 
don't care about. 

677
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,600
So we've moved on. 
However, it's a really 

678
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:53,480
interesting and complementary 
asset that lots of institutional

679
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,040
investors should take a look at,
but you kind of wish you had 

680
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,000
taken a look at it three years 
ago, not this summer. 

681
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,800
Again, getting just 
understanding the niches and 

682
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,840
understanding the way things 
might change and being a bit 

683
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:07,920
ahead of the curve sometimes if 
if we're lucky. 

684
00:40:08,240 --> 00:40:10,960
So how? 
I mean, how do you try to stay 

685
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,760
ahead of the curve? 
Like when your brain thinks 

686
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,560
about assets you want to own, 
what are you trying to think 

687
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,560
like 7 to 10 years out and how 
the hell do you predict that 

688
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:23,440
kind of thing? 
Yeah, the crystal ball, there's 

689
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,000
not a lot of prediction and I 
want to, I want to be very, very

690
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,960
clear about that. 
We invest when trends have 

691
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,480
started, but not everything we 
do is a trend. 

692
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,360
Sometimes they're just point in 
time private trades that the 

693
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,040
pricing doesn't make sense and 
we know this is going to last 

694
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,680
for 18 months and it's not going
to be interesting again. 

695
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,600
So an example of that, would it 
be like an asset that is not 

696
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,240
cash flowing currently but 
clearly has intrinsic value and 

697
00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:53,000
you can buy it at a huge 
discount to replacement cost. 

698
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:57,520
And you say, look, I got two 
ways out here and I'm in. 

699
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:02,720
So most of the point in time 
investments that we've made need

700
00:41:02,720 --> 00:41:05,600
to be self liquidating in some. 
Way. 

701
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,560
How interesting. 
So that we're not, again, we're 

702
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,600
not buying companies. 
So we're not buying something 

703
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,240
for $0.50 and hoping to sell it 
for $1.10. 

704
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:21,920
We're buying something for $0.60
and receiving $1.10 or $1.20 and

705
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,560
then we disappear because 
there's no asset left because it

706
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,480
resolved itself, right. 
So like run off portfolios, non 

707
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,800
performing loans we haven't done
in a long time, but that's a 

708
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:36,560
very like sort of Hallmark case 
study globally of that return 

709
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:43,200
profile. 
There are, you know, there's a 

710
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:50,320
recent years investment that we 
made in ERC claims. 

711
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:51,960
So this is part of the CARES 
Act. 

712
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:56,120
The owner of a business who 
qualifies according to rules, 

713
00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:00,160
once again across a number of 
rules in the middle of COVID, 

714
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:05,080
did you not fire your employees?
Did you can continue to pay them

715
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,120
the way they've been paid before
And then a number of other 

716
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,440
metrics. 
You are entitled to a tax credit

717
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:15,480
directly from the IRS. 
And not very many businesses 

718
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,360
knew that because a lot of 
businesses don't have a CFOA lot

719
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,040
of business don't even have a 
controller and they weren't 

720
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,760
aware of this program. 
And so there's a long, long 

721
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,720
storyline around what's what's 
transpired since since 2020 

722
00:42:29,720 --> 00:42:33,040
inside the ERC program. 
But there's an opportunity again

723
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:39,400
to effect you have a purpose 
built machine that factors IRS 

724
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,600
credit risk in exchange for a 
very high teens or even low 20. 

725
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,760
See what you do in there though?
You're playing with the time. 

726
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:53,520
The IRS could take forever and 
so you need to understand, you 

727
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:55,920
have to understand the time to 
resolution. 

728
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,200
You have to. 
And if it's a question mark, all

729
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:03,280
of a sudden you're 18% IRR 
becomes a 5. 

730
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:05,040
Yeah. 
OK. 

731
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:09,680
So if something had like a a 
hard statute of limitations for 

732
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:12,200
three years or something, you 
would say, OK, well that I could

733
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,120
bank. 
I know statute of limitations is

734
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,760
not what I'm that's not the 
appropriate term. 

735
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:18,160
Yeah, neither. 
Of us are lawyers. 

736
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,520
Yeah, well, I did go to law 
school, but yeah, I I realize 

737
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:24,440
there's like a there's a hard 
time that it must be resolved by

738
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,560
and that you could say, OK, well
then I could back into that's my

739
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:30,760
worst case scenario here, right.
Yeah. 

740
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,280
And then how you think about 
that kind of thing in this 

741
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,440
specific case? 
I mean, I was telling you a lot 

742
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,280
of it was quantitative analysis 
and understanding time to 

743
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:40,760
resolution for previous claims 
because it's imminently 

744
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:42,920
discoverable. 
And also what kinds of claims, 

745
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:44,480
what does the government settle 
first? 

746
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:48,720
Do they settle the $90,000,000 
claims or the $200,000 claims? 

747
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,480
Oh, what do they settle? 
The answer ended up being in the

748
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:52,800
middle. 
Interesting. 

749
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,720
And so sort of single digit 
million claims, legitimate 

750
00:43:57,720 --> 00:44:05,080
companies with 100 or 200 
employees with ACFO filed the 

751
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:06,920
right way. 
Those are the claims that got 

752
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:10,440
paid quickest. 
And so at the lower end of the 

753
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:15,720
market there was probably 
problems with filing and 

754
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,480
problems with qualification 
because of the people that were 

755
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:21,080
filling out the paperwork. 
At the higher end of the market,

756
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,120
even the IRS doesn't really want
to stroke a $90,000,000 check, 

757
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,160
right. 
Those are sort of let that one 

758
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,400
sit for a while. 
And So what we found through the

759
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:33,080
data was a sweet spot of the 
kinds of claims that you can buy

760
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:35,960
and you own, you're not sharing 
like you own it. 

761
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,560
And the time to resolution on 
those was significantly 

762
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:43,040
collapsed versus the rest of the
market of claims. 

763
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:47,880
But even those were not years. 
It was a year or a little. 

764
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:51,000
You eventually get paid, but 
people get tired of waiting. 

765
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:52,840
It's like Brazil and 
Predatorios. 

766
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,760
I know I'm getting my money in 
two years, but I could really 

767
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,440
use that cash that is not in my 
budget. 

768
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:00,840
I just found out that I have a 
right to it. 

769
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,080
I would like a percentage of 
that cash today and I will 

770
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,760
transact with Clover Lace Group 
to get that cash today. 

771
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:13,040
And it's a, it's a great 
resolution to an onerous highly 

772
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:19,840
regimented process, but not is 
not very fun for anyone to 

773
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:21,880
process. 
But if you build a machine 

774
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:26,080
solely focused on doing that 
thing, it becomes less onerous 

775
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,920
and you can buy very well and 
make an interesting return and 

776
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,720
then go away because ERC 
opportunities over later this 

777
00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:33,720
year probably. 
Yeah. 

778
00:45:33,720 --> 00:45:35,560
Well, that makes sense. 
Plus you're providing the 

779
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,480
business liquidity and to the 
extent they have uses for the 

780
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,000
capital, they can put it to work
rather than sitting there and 

781
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:42,520
waiting. 
Exactly. 

782
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:44,720
At the time they're not getting 
any interest, you're just 

783
00:45:44,720 --> 00:45:46,160
sitting around waiting for 
money. 

784
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:50,040
Yeah, you want to open a new 
branch now or in 18 months? 

785
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:51,200
Yeah. 
Huh. 

786
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:54,440
That's interesting. 
That's cool. 

787
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:56,280
What else are you digging 
around? 

788
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:58,840
Well, you can't. 
You can't tell the competition. 

789
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:00,880
Well, what are what are some fun
stories? 

790
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:02,320
I'm not going to talk about the 
pipeline. 

791
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:03,960
I'm going to talk about the 
things that are no longer 

792
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:05,720
interesting. 
What's it? 

793
00:46:05,720 --> 00:46:08,000
What's What's a crappy outcome? 
You had a. 

794
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:14,920
Crappy outcome we had. 
So one of the very first deals 

795
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:21,000
we did, and this is going to 
sound wild, was a Greenfield 

796
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:25,360
cacao plantation in Colombia. 
OK, All right. 

797
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:30,000
So it had to be cacao based on 
prior experience and permanent 

798
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,200
crops that we had at Morgan 
Stanley, and it had to be 

799
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:38,200
Colombia because of the 
incredibly deep relationships we

800
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:42,640
have inside the government and 
the pension funds and everything

801
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:44,800
in Colombia. 
We had this thing surrounded. 

802
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,800
If it had been Peru, we'd have 
been like, this is probably 

803
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:49,800
interesting, we're never going 
to get there. 

804
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,160
The answer is no. 
And we like to give early Nos 

805
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,120
and not just hang around the 
hoop and be annoying. 

806
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:58,160
So we did cacao, it worked. 
So if you think about what we 

807
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:02,920
did there, the actual asset at 
entry was levered. 

808
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,840
Cattle land, cattle land, cattle
land. 

809
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:08,520
There are no cacao plantations 
in Colombia. 

810
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,240
Biggest cacao markets in the 
world are Western Africa, 

811
00:47:12,240 --> 00:47:16,560
fraught child labor, middle men 
like really bad and Southeast 

812
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,080
Asia that's basically fully 
planted. 

813
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:22,360
If you go latitudinally around 
the globe, you go over Colombia.

814
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:27,120
Oh, and by the way, it's a 2 day
steam from your largest market 

815
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:32,160
in the world, the United States.
There should be a cacao economy 

816
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,720
in Colombia. 
There wasn't, wasn't anything of

817
00:47:35,720 --> 00:47:40,880
significance at all. 
And so the idea was, or the 

818
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,200
thesis was, we own cattle land 
on an unlevered basis. 

819
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:48,160
If we get everything wrong, our 
partners terrible. 

820
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:50,760
There is flood, there is, there 
is blight. 

821
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:56,080
We're selling unlevered cattle 
land for $0.87 on the dollar. 

822
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:59,160
So dimension your downside. 
And then look at the business 

823
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:02,080
case and say what could possibly
happen when these trees are 5 

824
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:03,760
feet tall? 
What if you get things 

825
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:05,920
completely right or mostly 
right? 

826
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:08,040
Who cares? 
What's the exit? 

827
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,720
Are we operating this forever or
are there acquirers? 

828
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,240
That was the thrust of our work 
because we don't have mud on our

829
00:48:15,240 --> 00:48:18,280
boots, but we know lots and lots
and lots of people that have mud

830
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:20,240
on their boots. 
And so we felt very comfortable 

831
00:48:20,240 --> 00:48:23,480
making the commitment. 
And the reason this was sort of 

832
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:27,240
an underperformer versus 
expectations for us is we had 

833
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:32,480
new capital come in from sort of
an ESG focused fund out of 

834
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,600
Europe or not even a fund. 
I mean, I guess it's a fund an 

835
00:48:35,720 --> 00:48:40,600
ESG operator out of Europe. 
And shortly thereafter we 

836
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,200
thought we had a path. 
Shortly thereafter, one of the 

837
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:47,000
largest confectionery companies 
in the world and everyone has 

838
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:51,080
probably eaten their candy in 
the last week came in and said I

839
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:53,680
would like to be a 40% owner of 
this. 

840
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:57,240
And our new partner who had 
control because of the size of 

841
00:48:57,240 --> 00:49:01,560
them coming in after us, well 
after us, they were able to 

842
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:04,520
steer it towards the large 
global strategic. 

843
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:07,600
And this large global strategic 
is not in the business of 

844
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:11,040
selling plantations. 
And so we had no choice but to 

845
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,960
put our hands in the air and say
we love where this is going. 

846
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:16,800
The wrong collection of parties 
is at the table now. 

847
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,320
We would like to be taken out. 
And so an amazing platform, 

848
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,680
especially given what happened 
to Cacao plan, what could have 

849
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:27,320
been a three or 4X. 
We walked away for exactly the 

850
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:31,760
right reasons at 1.3 and we said
this is no longer appropriate 

851
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:34,280
for our kind of capital. 
We're not in the business of 

852
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,840
crossing our fingers and hoping 
the global strategic acts in a 

853
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:40,080
way that works for us. 
We don't control our own 

854
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:41,760
destiny. 
So it's time for us to be gone. 

855
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,520
So that's, that's one I would, I
would point to. 

856
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:47,400
You know, it happens on 
occasion, not terribly 

857
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,920
frequently because we are 
usually controlling our own 

858
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:51,720
destiny. 
But that was one where you you 

859
00:49:51,720 --> 00:49:55,640
couldn't say no because saying 
no would be the wrong thing. 

860
00:49:55,720 --> 00:49:58,360
Like we don't want to partner 
with you because of the price, 

861
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:01,040
but we need to exit at that 
premature price. 

862
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:06,040
That was the right decision. 
That's a good crappy outcome. 

863
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:09,240
I was, you know. 
Hopeless, I mean, it could have 

864
00:50:09,240 --> 00:50:12,760
been so good or maybe cacao 
prices would have cratered like 

865
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:16,160
once you we always like to say 
we'd like to build the utility, 

866
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:19,920
not buy the utility. 
And so when the global strategic

867
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:23,480
start viewing you as a utility 
and they're paying a utility 

868
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:26,960
price, that means you're not 
able to be nimble anymore and 

869
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:29,360
it's time it's time to get it's 
time to move on. 

870
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:31,000
But yeah, that was a frustrating
one. 

871
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,040
But anyway, at the end of the 
day, it was it was a perfectly 

872
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:36,760
fine result. 
And that's how a lot of our you 

873
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:41,320
know, the when the underwriting 
that doesn't pan out ends up in 

874
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:47,840
a ho hum 1.31.4 That's we love 
that return profile. 

875
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:50,600
Like if if those are the ones 
you're really frustrated about, 

876
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:54,720
like this took way too long. 
And thanks for the positive 

877
00:50:54,720 --> 00:50:58,600
return. 
That's a good result as opposed 

878
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:00,640
to. 
You don't want to go backwards. 

879
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:04,480
Sort of a venture like portfolio
where you have home runs and a 

880
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:06,600
bunch of zeros. 
That's a that's a tough way to 

881
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:08,560
operate as a as a an investment 
firm. 

882
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,680
So in a fund, if you have 10 
investments, how many do you 

883
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:14,800
have a negative return on? 
I know I don't. 

884
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:16,880
Can you even talk about this? 
Am I asking? 

885
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:21,080
Probably can't, but the answer 
is very, very low just because 

886
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:24,720
of the the transaction profile 
that I was describing. 

887
00:51:24,720 --> 00:51:26,960
Like we own a thing that we can 
sell. 

888
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:32,400
And so inside any portfolio, 
they're probably more like 12 to

889
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:35,640
15 instead of 10. 
So there's pretty good 

890
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:38,360
diversification. 
And again, each of those 

891
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:42,000
investments are in different 
segments and have nothing to do 

892
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:45,360
with each other. 
And so the reason or the 

893
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,640
rationale behind the portfolio 
architecture is really making a 

894
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:52,840
series of conviction bets. 
Not just throwing cards across 

895
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:55,520
the table and hoping a couple 
hit, but rather making 

896
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:59,600
conviction bets, but also being 
responsible as a fiduciary and 

897
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:02,680
saying no one or two deals can 
kill this fund. 

898
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:07,120
I need to be more diversified 
than that because our investors 

899
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,880
given they were looking for a 
very predictable uncorrelated 

900
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:14,920
private market strategy means 
nothing should be able to put a 

901
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:16,960
hole in it even if one doesn't 
work out. 

902
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:19,840
So that's and that's how things 
have played out and there, there

903
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,680
have been surprises to the 
upside and the downside. 

904
00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:27,400
But the middle of the bell curve
is why we remain in business and

905
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:30,080
and raising money because the 
middle of the bell curve is 

906
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:33,240
incredibly compelling to a lot 
of institutions and family 

907
00:52:33,240 --> 00:52:35,800
offices. 
How big were you when you 

908
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:39,240
started? 
How big were we? 

909
00:52:39,240 --> 00:52:40,240
Yeah, like assets. 
Yeah. 

910
00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:42,720
Like how do you get your start? 
You come out of Morgan Stanley. 

911
00:52:42,720 --> 00:52:45,560
Oh, it's $0.00. 
Yeah, somebody had to give you 

912
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:47,480
your first dollars, right? 
Yes. 

913
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:52,280
So we are first think of our 
soon to be more than 1.6 

914
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:56,240
billion, but that's the filing 
number that I have to use until 

915
00:52:56,240 --> 00:52:58,880
June or July. 
Think of our 1.6 billion as a 

916
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:04,640
series of $200 million vehicles.
So the very first one was the 

917
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,840
family office, West Coast family
office of the Silicon Valley 

918
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:11,720
entrepreneur that we'd known for
very, very, very long time. 

919
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:17,680
And he was very forward thinking
and confident about the future 

920
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:23,880
of his business when he was a 
pretty rich guy, 100% on paper. 

921
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:26,880
We were having conversations 
about what it looks like when he

922
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:31,840
has $4 billion and for 
relationship reasons and because

923
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:35,000
he's a fantastic guy. 
We had those conversations with 

924
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,120
him. 
We left Morgan Stanley. 

925
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:40,720
He had no idea we were leaving. 
And when we were allowed to talk

926
00:53:40,720 --> 00:53:45,480
to him, we told him what we were
doing and we became 100% of his 

927
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:47,840
private exposure. 
Nice. 

928
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:51,040
Because he has Equity Beta 
covered. 

929
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:53,320
Thank you very much. 
Courtesy of the main event. 

930
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,720
Yeah, give me the long dated 
uncorrelated stuff. 

931
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,880
So that was the first vehicle, 
but we didn't have it when we 

932
00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:03,320
launched. 
We had we had a PowerPoint with 

933
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,160
like an idea. 
How was that? 

934
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:08,000
That must have been stressful. 
Terrifying. 

935
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:09,240
Ask my. 
Ask my wife. 

936
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:12,360
Yeah, Yeah. 
No, it was, I mean, it was it 

937
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:15,360
was a big leap, but we stuck to 
it. 

938
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:18,440
And we really haven't changed 
much about what we do or how we 

939
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:21,680
think about the world or the 
people that we talk to since 

940
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:23,720
inception, sort of kept our 
heads down. 

941
00:54:23,720 --> 00:54:28,000
And if it's, you know, if this 
isn't a $30 billion business 

942
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:32,080
someday, that's OK. 
We really, we look at awesome, 

943
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:34,920
interesting things every single 
day. 

944
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:39,560
I was supposed to go to today 
until my son's final youth 

945
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:43,280
soccer match ever before he goes
to college was rescheduled. 

946
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:48,800
I was supposed to go to sort of 
close by local gaming facility 

947
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:51,640
like slots. 
Like the place smells like 

948
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:53,760
smoke. 
That's $1.00 drink. 

949
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:57,960
That's that kind of place. 
We've been around gaming for 20 

950
00:54:57,960 --> 00:54:59,720
years. 
We understand the gaming, We 

951
00:54:59,720 --> 00:55:02,280
have a deep, deep network in 
gaming. 

952
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:06,120
And this was one of the assets 
related to a portfolio that 

953
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:10,600
we're looking at, but not owning
the portfolio of casinos, but 

954
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:14,640
rather doing something with sort
of the owner of the of the 

955
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:20,240
casinos to enable him to grow. 
So, so I have a soccer game 

956
00:55:20,240 --> 00:55:24,680
followed by local gaming, 
followed by, you know, ERC 

957
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:29,280
claims and then, you know, a 
board meeting for the Care Bears

958
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:31,120
tomorrow there. 
You go. 

959
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:33,400
It's pretty cool. 
We own the intellectual property

960
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:36,520
of the Care Bears. 
I remember the Care Bears stare.

961
00:55:36,720 --> 00:55:40,200
Oh, yeah, and we get, we get 
heated, heated in the board 

962
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:44,480
calls about Hello Kitty because 
they're, they're awesome. 

963
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:46,240
They're number one in our 
category. 

964
00:55:46,240 --> 00:55:48,360
We want to eat their lunch, but 
they're so good. 

965
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:50,800
We're trying to trying to figure
out how to outmaneuver Hello 

966
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:52,600
Kitty. 
Real board meetings. 

967
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:53,320
Yeah. 
That's tough. 

968
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:55,880
I mean, that's tough. 
You kind of, yeah, you got to be

969
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:57,520
like complimentary, I would 
think. 

970
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:00,760
Yeah, no has. 
Bluey encroached on your stuff. 

971
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:03,640
Bluey's. 
Bluey's the best IP in the 

972
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:04,640
world. 
Bluey's good. 

973
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:08,080
I don't actually know off the 
top of my head who owns Bluey 

974
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:11,120
because it's one of the 
strategics. 

975
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:13,320
It's not independently owned. 
Most it's not. 

976
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:16,040
Like part of the Australia or 
whoever like produced it. 

977
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:20,080
Most, I mean, it's probably the 
network, mostly the network that

978
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:22,680
produced it where they just said
I'll take that and I'll give you

979
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:25,240
a check. 
Inventor of Bluey, Yeah. 

980
00:56:25,240 --> 00:56:28,840
And then I'll take it from here.
The vast majority of of content 

981
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:31,880
on the intellectual property 
side is either owned by 

982
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:33,360
Strategics. 
That's most of it. 

983
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:36,440
They have giant portfolios of 
different brands like the Care 

984
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:43,000
Bears or families where they 
accidentally ended up with some 

985
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:47,720
IP that worked and all of a 
sudden it becomes a somewhat or 

986
00:56:47,720 --> 00:56:50,920
very meaningful part of their 
broader business that they 

987
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:53,680
almost accidentally owned. 
And there's almost nothing in 

988
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:55,520
the middle. 
There's no private equity 

989
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:58,360
running around rolling up things
that look like the Care Bears 

990
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:02,040
because it doesn't exist. 
It's tiny and venture like. 

991
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:04,960
And we think we can grow it and 
make it awesome and everyone 

992
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:08,520
will know it. 
Or it's, you know, Batman. 

993
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:11,360
Yeah. 
And Warner Brothers owns Batman 

994
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:13,200
and they're doing amazing things
with Batman. 

995
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:17,720
The the middle is where we had 
been looking for sort of legacy,

996
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:22,560
incredibly well known, resilient
brands that you can do something

997
00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:25,640
with what parts of the world 
don't know about the Care Bears,

998
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:31,200
but by all the Hello Kitty 
stuff, what's the right team to 

999
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:35,760
go find those regions? 
How do you grow that royalty 

1000
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:37,280
stream? 
Because you know you have a 

1001
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:39,840
royalty stream like that's, 
that's the entry point. 

1002
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:43,080
What can you do with the Royalty
stream without actually 

1003
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:46,720
manufacturing the T-shirts or 
the backpacks or producing the 

1004
00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:47,880
movie? 
Yeah. 

1005
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:50,040
You own the intellectual 
property. 

1006
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:52,320
All of those people pay you 
forever. 

1007
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:58,280
It's a really interesting asset.
Yeah, Yeah. 

1008
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:01,760
I don't know the answer. 
If I if I come across it, I'll 

1009
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:04,040
pitch you on it. 
Yeah, let me know, let me know. 

1010
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:07,080
We want to see, we've seen a lot
of interesting things in content

1011
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:09,840
and most of it's most of it's on
the venture E growth side. 

1012
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:13,720
Like we've we've broke, we've 
used AI to break down this 

1013
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:16,880
market and these are the 
components of successful brands 

1014
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:19,960
and we have one that nobody 
knows about that fits all of 

1015
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:23,560
those criteria. 
So pre money valuation of 30 

1016
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:26,840
million or like as soon as you 
say pre money, it's not, it's 

1017
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:28,520
not for us. 
That's not what we do. 

1018
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:32,240
What I mean, what do you do as, 
as an owner or something I've 

1019
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:35,160
been thinking about like what 
happens if people are using that

1020
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:38,800
VO3 to start making Care Bears 
do untoward things? 

1021
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:42,520
What do you, you know, how do 
you protect that in this world 

1022
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:44,960
of potential content 
proliferation? 

1023
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:48,080
It's an expenditure and it's 
everything from protecting the 

1024
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:50,520
brand from those kinds of 
things. 

1025
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:53,520
You spend money doing that. 
And it's a very, very high, high

1026
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:56,040
level of focus all the way down 
to Etsy. 

1027
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:59,560
Like I love Etsy, I bought stuff
off of Etsy and none of it is 

1028
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:02,240
licensed. 
And sadly we own the Care Bears 

1029
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:03,880
now. 
So you can't, you can't do that 

1030
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:06,760
anymore. 
And so it's a that's part of the

1031
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:11,960
blocking and tackling around an 
iconic but neglected piece of 

1032
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:14,520
intellectual property. 
Like how do you play defense? 

1033
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:16,080
And also how do you play 
offense? 

1034
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:19,680
And in a lot of cases, the prior
owner wasn't doing either one. 

1035
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:25,120
They just suddenly had this ATM 
machine that sent them money all

1036
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:26,360
the time. 
And they're like, this is 

1037
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:28,320
amazing. 
I didn't plan on this. 

1038
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:31,160
I'll just leave it. 
But there are things you can do 

1039
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:34,440
with that Intellectual property 
and defense is certainly one of 

1040
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:36,320
them. 
Yeah, I would think so. 

1041
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:39,480
I would think it's going to be a
more interesting conversation 

1042
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:42,480
over time rather than less. 
I think there will be more 

1043
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:44,840
proliferation of that kind of 
thing. 

1044
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:48,480
Yeah, I mean it's and this 
touches the intellectual 

1045
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:52,120
property content side, It 
touches music publishing rights,

1046
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:57,880
it touches printed publishing 
rights, how AI is governed and 

1047
00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:02,120
how the owner of content is 
compensated when it shows up on 

1048
01:00:02,120 --> 01:00:04,560
your computer screen and then 
you use it. 

1049
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:09,280
That answer is not resolved and 
we're not going to try to figure

1050
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:11,080
it out. 
But we are watching very, very 

1051
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:14,520
closely about how it's sort of 
like in the earliest days of 

1052
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:17,760
like the Apple Store, right? 
You can, you'd finally buy a 

1053
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:23,120
song and not an album online and
someone just decided that the 

1054
01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:25,680
price is $0.99. 
Like there wasn't a lot of math 

1055
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:26,800
behind it. 
It was. 

1056
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:29,120
Yeah, it's under a buck. 
This will work. 

1057
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:39,840
And then the recorded music 
protocol was applied to $0.99. 

1058
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:45,120
Then you go to Spotify that 
completely. 

1059
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:48,640
It required a completely 
different construct to 

1060
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:53,480
compensate the owners of the 
content because a fraction of 

1061
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:56,440
$0.99 is different than a 
fraction of a fraction of a 

1062
01:00:56,440 --> 01:01:00,000
fraction of a fraction of 2 
billion plays. 

1063
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:02,400
And I don't need to report how 
many plays it had. 

1064
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:06,880
So watching these secular trends
and understanding what the rules

1065
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:10,440
are and what the assets are and 
determining points of entry to 

1066
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:13,960
say this is now actionable. 
We can actually do something 

1067
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:15,680
with this. 
You know, on the on the music 

1068
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:19,640
side, we've, we've done some 
things in music, but not in 

1069
01:01:19,640 --> 01:01:22,520
music catalogs because of all 
the capital that's coming. 

1070
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:26,560
We took in a different approach 
with a partner on the ground 

1071
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:30,800
that has never done anything but
this and we are creating, 

1072
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:35,400
purchasing, creating royalty 
streams out of all of the other 

1073
01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:39,520
revenue that touches an artist 
other than their catalog. 

1074
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:41,400
So the catalog is like your 
mortgage. 

1075
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:45,480
Like if you feel like getting 18
quotes for a new mortgage, you 

1076
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:48,520
can have that in an hour. 
If I feel like selling my 

1077
01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:51,880
fantastic original music 
collection, if it is actually 

1078
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:55,800
fantastic or even decent, I can 
get 18 bids in like 2 weeks. 

1079
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:59,640
You know, You know who to call. 
Everybody is starved for assets,

1080
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:05,400
but the touring, the merch, the 
social, all of the revenue 

1081
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:10,760
streams, the perfume agreement, 
what is it, 7% of revenue on 

1082
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:12,680
something I have no control 
over? 

1083
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:17,960
Or am I manufacturing and owning
the perfume with my name on it? 

1084
01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:21,160
That's different. 
And so our approach to music was

1085
01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:25,320
to look at the other sources of 
revenue that are lumpy, episodic

1086
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:29,760
checks that end up adding up to 
a gigantic number for a lot of 

1087
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:33,040
these artists and saying, is 
there a way to professionalize 

1088
01:02:33,040 --> 01:02:35,520
this and make it look more like 
a royalty stream? 

1089
01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:38,640
So that's been our approach. 
And let other people you know 

1090
01:02:38,640 --> 01:02:41,280
buy The Rolling Stones and and 
Bruce Springsteen. 

1091
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:44,160
Huh, that's cool. 
I like that. 

1092
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:46,280
I like it's a different way of 
thinking. 

1093
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:48,760
It's been an enjoyable 
conversation for me. 

1094
01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:51,160
I hope it has been for you. 
No, it's great. 

1095
01:02:51,160 --> 01:02:53,120
I appreciate it. 
Happy to be involved. 

1096
01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:55,560
You ask good questions and 
second questions and 3rd 

1097
01:02:55,560 --> 01:02:58,920
questions and we end up talking 
about telecom and now we sound 

1098
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:01,000
like a telecom investor. 
That's that's the way it goes 

1099
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:03,440
because we just like talking 
about this stuff. 

1100
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:07,360
I think wholesale like I have 
not had a bunch of tag lines and

1101
01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:09,120
like don't forget Clover late 
does this. 

1102
01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:12,480
We love talking about it because
what we do is really 

1103
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:15,360
interesting. 
The assets we buy are really, 

1104
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:17,560
really interesting. 
The reason we have the business 

1105
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:22,080
is we think they're interesting 
additions to institutional and 

1106
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:25,080
family office portfolios. 
And so our job is to be 

1107
01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:28,720
missionaries and tell that story
because it's not intuitive to 

1108
01:03:28,720 --> 01:03:31,200
everyone. 
It doesn't fit for all programs.

1109
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:34,240
We think it's complementary to 
most, but if you're a bucket 

1110
01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:39,080
filler like we're not eligible. 
But if you're thinking in a 

1111
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:42,520
holistic way about all of your 
private exposure and the way 

1112
01:03:42,520 --> 01:03:46,040
things behave over time, 
portfolios we assemble are 

1113
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:49,680
pretty complimentary and we 
think perform in a in a really 

1114
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:53,040
interesting way between private 
credit and private equity. 

1115
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:56,960
Who should How should people get
in touch with you? 

1116
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:01,360
I think you can go through our 
website or our LinkedIn easily 

1117
01:04:01,360 --> 01:04:05,600
accessible and we have a person 
charged with turning those 

1118
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:07,960
inbounds around really, really 
quickly. 

1119
01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:10,800
So it won't end up in the ether 
for sure. 

1120
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:13,640
But that's probably the most 
reliable way, rather than giving

1121
01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:16,440
somebody's e-mail address and 
getting getting pounded and not 

1122
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:18,560
being able to respond in a in a 
timely way. 

1123
01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:20,960
Makes sense. 
All right, Well, cool. 

1124
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:24,480
Well, thank you for coming on. 
I appreciate it I've I've had a 

1125
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:27,440
good time getting to know you 
and this is like I said it was 

1126
01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:29,680
an enjoyable conversation. 
I hope it was for you as well. 

1127
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:31,560
It was great. 
Thanks so much for having me. 

1128
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:33,920
I really appreciate it and best 
of luck to you the rest of the 

1129
01:04:33,920 --> 01:04:36,880
summer. 
Hope you get some golf in and. 

1130
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:38,080
That won't be a. 
Problem. 

1131
01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:40,520
Who knows, maybe, maybe we play 
up here or down there at some 

1132
01:04:40,520 --> 01:04:42,520
point. 
Would love to in the summer I'd 

1133
01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:44,800
rather play up there and in the 
winter you can come down here 

1134
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:45,560
sounds. 
Good. 

1135
01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:48,040
All right, have a good one. 
All right, have a great one. 

1136
01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:52,280
See you. 
Bye. 

1137
01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:48,040
None. 
Music.