Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Business Brew.
I am your host, Bill Brewster. This episode features the one
and only Consuelo Mac. I have gone to Consuelo's
Wealchtrack program for a number of years for weekly investment
content. I love what she does.
Her mission to educate investors and give them access to
investors is something that resonates with me and that I
hope to do as good of a job over time as she has done.
And I asked her to come on the program.
She said yes. And I'm thrilled to bring this
interview to you. One interesting tidbit that I
learned in preparing for this program was Consuelo Show does
not have funding, so she puts it together.
So we get into that a little bit about how she gets her
sponsorships and how she goes about her business.
I think this a really cool conversation about her career
and I am happy and honored to be able to bring you a conversation
with the one and only Consuela Mac.
I hope you enjoy. As always, nothing in the show
is financial advice. Please consult an investment
advisor before making investment decisions.
Everything in the show is for entertainment purposes and
educational purposes and do your own due diligence.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Business Brew.
I am very excited to be talking to the one and only Consuelo
Mac. I, I, I am honored to be on this
side of the mic and interviewing you.
So thank you for saying yes. No, I'm delighted to be here.
You you did a terrific interview with a good friend of mine.
Had a Nadler recently, a mountain Nadler, and she's APR
person that I've been dealing with for years and has become a
good friend. And anyone that had a recommends
that I talk to I do. But anyway, so it was really
fun. You had a great discussion with
Heda. I learned a lot.
Heda's one-of-a-kind, yeah. And I just, yeah, go ahead,
sorry. No, she said today, I hope I'm
not leaking confidential info, but she said that she had like
an affinity for me and I said that I had one for her as well.
And she said well hopefully you're not afraid of me.
And I said a little, but it's out of respect.
Totally out of respect, right? Do do not fear head out.
But she has all of our best interests at heart.
She's she's really one-of-a-kind.
And I also, you know, listen to your, that podcast that you did
with Matthew Sweeney, which I thought was fascinating.
Oh, thank you. Right.
I mean, just about the, the issues that one has as value
investors. Like, I honestly felt like I was
listening in on a, on a guy's luncheon, you know, but just a
conversation that, that you would have with a close friend
about all the things that you're thinking about, the things you
don't understand and investing in the markets and, and you
know, what works for you, what doesn't?
It was really a neat conversation.
I I really appreciated it. Well, this will be a a
conversation, hopefully a different kind of luncheon.
That's that's the goal of the podcast.
So I'm glad that that's how you felt.
If if you felt that way, I'm doing my job.
Yeah, you are. It's been a joy.
Has it? Yeah, yeah, I like it.
I mean, you know more than I do about the back end of it, but
you know, it's, it's been a nice learning experience.
I came here having some ideas. I mean, I, I read, you know,
Buffett Munger and thought I knew everything about the world.
And the more I learned, the more I realized I didn't know
anything. And, and now I'm trying to learn
more, you know? Join the club.
The more I know, the more I realized that I don't know.
And it's a constant, you know, learning curve.
And that's what makes this business so exciting because you
never stop learning. Yeah, that's right.
Well, how did you get into the business for those that don't
know? Right.
So I, I graduated, I, I had a liberal arts degree from a
college called Sarah Lawrence College, which is still very
much in existence. It was just turning Coed at the
time. So I had, you know, nary a math
course or economics course, nothing in finance at all.
And when I graduated from Sarah Lawrence with a, a very liberal
liberal arts education, I really wanted to make it in, in the
man's world. I realized that there was a huge
void in my education, which was about business.
And my wonderful parents had supported me through college.
And I decided it was time for me to be financially independent.
And where could I go where I could be trained and paid at the
same time. And the two options that came to
my mind through talking with various friends with was in
banking head training programs and they paid you as, as did the
brokerage industry. And so one of my first
interviews was at Merrill Lynch and they needed to hire women.
At the time, it was in the 1970s, some significant
legislation had just been passed by Congress and they were under
pressure to hire women. And also in the 1970s, the I was
at 600, the Wall Street had been decimated.
And they also needed bodies. So Merrill Lynch was kind enough
to offer me a job as a, you know, as a, as a broker.
I mean, they called us account executives.
That's kind of a joke at the time for me, certainly.
But that's how it got started. What a good time to enter.
In retrospect, Yeah, Little different than now.
Wouldn't have known it at the time, Yeah, Would not have known
that it was a good time to enter at the time.
I mean, there were lots of empty desks in the office.
I was working in the garment district.
The people that the the brokers who were left there were real
seasoned veterans. They had actually survived what
was going on with the market at the time and they could not have
been nicer or kinder to me. I wonder if in a way that was a
real blessing because you had the people teaching you that had
the most skill, right? Those that were able to to
survive, Absolutely. What I mean, you said they that
they couldn't have been nicer to you, but what was that like?
I mean, how many women were in your class?
Well, in my, in my actual training class, I think that
there were like three of us and I was the only one that went to
this office in the garment district.
And it was an amazing experience because we were given I think 40
called call cards a day to go through.
So I was calling. They were all men who were, you
know, obviously had sent in for information.
And so I was, you know, calling all these guys who were, again,
you know, that they were seasoned investors themselves.
And it was a daunting and humbling and I realized how
little I knew. And so therefore, when people
ask me questions, I, the training program was great, but
I, there was a lot that I needed to learn.
And that was part of the experience as well at the,
these, the guys at, at 1515 Broadway were terrific to me and
really tried to help me as much as I could.
But quite honestly, Bill, I realized like right from the get
code, I am not equipped, you know, to do this.
And number one in my background. And so I, I moved quickly on to,
to work for some other really terrific firms.
I ended up working at Mitchell Hutchins, which was the number
one research firm in the street because I realized I really
needed to know a lot more. I just couldn't make cold calls.
And that was a wonderful experience as well.
And that's how I, I got into journalism by recognizing that
if I, you know, really wasn't happy at the number one research
firm on Wall Street who were also terrific to me that that I
needed to to go in a different direction.
And that's how I got into journalism.
I took some courses at the New School at night, and one of them
was a broadcast journalism course.
And I met a woman who to to this day is one of my closest
friends, a fellow classmate at the time.
And she was working for a, a very small station in West
Orange, NJ, which was about 20 minutes outside of New York
City. And they needed someone to do
market commentary at night because at that time, in order
to get that broadcast license, you had to cover news in those
days. And so I would go out, I'd work
during the day at Mitchell Hutchins, drive out at night to
West Orange, NJ and do market commentary for two or three
minutes a night. And that turned into a full time
job. But I I found my calling.
Yeah. Circling back to something that
you said, you said that you didn't have the background or
brokerage wasn't for you. Do you think that was it?
Was it a function of personality type or do you think that it was
you, you sort of weren't trained at the time, you just didn't
enjoy doing? It, no, that's a good question.
I, I wasn't trained at the time because the, the, the sales
course then I remember we might have had 20 products.
And now at Merrill, if you go through a training program, I'm
assuming there were like, you know, 300 products.
I mean, it was just it was it was, it was a sales, you know,
course and on also the markets were going against us at the
time. And you know, I just wasn't set
up to losing money for clients. And so, you know, I literally
would go home and cry at night and talk to my husband about,
you know, I can't believe that I sold this stock and it was going
down. Whereas every everybody you know
else in the at in the office, that's just kind of the name of
the game and our clients actually understood it as well,
But I just wasn't psychologically equipped for
losing people money. Did you take it personally?
Yes, I felt it was a personal failure.
Absolutely. Yeah.
I, I couldn't divorce myself from the advice that this is
what Merrill Lynch is recommending and therefore it's
OK for you to recommend it and you don't own any of it.
And I just, that was not I, I couldn't deal with that.
I mean the expectation is if, if to your point, if Merrill is
saying that it, it is OK you are only the face that is relaying
Merrill's information. Right.
And selling their products. I think you time, yeah.
I think you and I have a similar.
I'm not OK with that. If if it goes wrong I would I
would own it personally. It's part of why I have no
interest in ever really running money.
I I much prefer doing this right.
Unfortunately, one is more lucrative than the other, but.
Yes, when I left Merrill Lynch even or Mitchell Hutchins, yeah,
there it was. I took a huge, enormous pay cut.
But, you know, these, these psychological rewards were, you
know, were more than made-up for the loss in income at that time.
So when you were driving out, I, I mean a young Consuelo, you're
working during the day and you get your two to three minutes
on, on local news at night. Obviously you're retired, but
you must have been very excited about about making that drive,
right? Yeah, it was a rush.
It really was. And, and I loved it because the
one thing that the thing that I really enjoyed when I was at
Mitchell Hutchins and again, I, you know, I, there's this not a,
it's not a myth, but there is a perception on Wall Street that
that women are not welcome. That has certainly been the case
for many women that I know on Wall Street.
It is, you know, it's been very tough for them to break into
for, for some reason, in my limited experience on Wall
Street, people really took care of me and, and tried to educate
me. They, they really cared.
I think I just have always met, you know, the the top, the best,
highest integrity people on Wall Street.
And there are a lot of them that are very professional doing
their jobs and they want to see younger people succeed.
I was very fortunate in that respect.
You know, someone may say to you that you attract those kind of
people because that's who you are.
Right. Possible.
Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm, yeah, I'm a
really fun person. Probable.
I bet. I bet people saw something in
you that they said I want to help this person, that that's my
my bet. I, I think you're absolutely
right. I was, you know, very fortunate
to have that experience. So what was your your early
journalism? You're driving out to the local
news? Where, when did you say, you
know what? I'm jumping full-fledged into
this journalism thing. And then how did you get
yourself into your first gig doing that?
So they made me a job offer basically to do a show, a Daily
Show. And that's, that's how that
happened. And, and I was going to say
that, you know, I mean, I've, I've done a lot of mentoring
over my career. And one of the things is that
people say, you know, I didn't wish I hadn't wasted time on,
you know, on Wall Street or whatever that I was not meant to
be there. And, and, you know, there was so
much that I, you can learn from a job that you're not enjoying
as well. Number one, you fight, figure
out what you don't enjoy about the job you're doing, and then
you figure out what you do enjoy about the job that you're doing.
And being at at Merrill Lynch and on Wall Street was really
great training for, you know, calling people who don't
necessarily want to talk to you right in journalism, being
persistent. It was another quality that I
learned. And also when I was at Mitchell
Hutchins, Mitchell Hutchins was a fabulous place to work because
they had access to research from all the other firms on Wall
Street at at the time. And, you know, you only got your
own research from your firm and it was limited at that.
It as a retail broker, you got a certain level of research and as
an institutional broker you got much more.
At Mitchell Hutchins, I was working for their wealth
management division. We got access to everything and
we had consultants like Henry Kissinger, we had climatologists
at that time. We had, you know, demographers.
So, and I'm one of them was to, to go to the, the meetings with
all of these experts and then put together a synthesis for our
clients to, to explain what the, the macro environment was.
And, and then start, you know, taking it down to then, you
know, well, what does this mean for certain industries?
What does this mean for certain companies?
And, you know, taking it all the way down to the micro level.
And that's what I found out, I really enjoyed.
And that's why I decided I, I think I would, you know, do well
in, in journalism. It's very apparent as you're
saying, that I'm reminded of your last two-part conversation
with, I believe it was Ed Hyman, right?
Yeah. You know, and, and one of the
things he said is he, he mentioned that I don't know if
he said it was early in his career, if it's now, but it was
something about demographics. And he said, Like I, I've
focused on that and other people maybe haven't as much as an
economist. Right.
And they did. They weren't at the time it was,
you know, total outlier. Like why would you be interested
in demographics? And it turns out it's really
important. And Ed Hyman, as a matter of
fact, when we launched Wealthtrack in July of 2005, he
was one of our first guests. Oh yeah, Long.
Time. Yeah, So what was the show like?
I'm sorry to ask you so many about, but I'm curious about the
path to Wealthtrack. So which show?
The first show that you did the The Daily Show.
Oh, right. So, so I did well #1 on this is
on channel 68 in New Jersey, I was doing a Daily Show.
It was, it was live TV. It would, you know, we
interviewed everybody you can imagine because we needed to get
people on the air and it was seat of the pants and it was it
was trialed by fire, no question about it.
And then I got and so that was really interesting and luckily
very few people were watching so.
Making mistakes in in quiet, right?
Yeah. And, and I got to know a lot of
people on, on Wall Street because no one except for Lou
Rukaiser was doing business journalism at the time.
And so that was a really great launching pad.
I, I don't think such a launching pad exists now, except
it does on online. People can, you know, can create
their own persona and everything else online.
If you get views, you can really make a career out of it, which
is very cool. And but anyway, so that that was
the first show and then then I went on to a venture capital
backed program that was on ESPN. It was a Daily Show called
Business Times, which was the the 1st morning business show
that was on cable. And then and that was for two
years. And that was another pretty
amazing experience. But it turned out that that we
couldn't get the advertisers to sponsor a business show on ESPN,
even though that's where male viewers were, that that was the
concept at the time. And then Disney happened to see
me on doing business times and we pitched Disney.
They had a, they had just started their independent
production company, Buena Vista, and we pitched the person who
got in touch with me an idea of doing a daily business program,
which I would be the sole anchor of on network television.
And that was Today's business. And and that's, you know what we
did. We did a, a program that was a,
it was a daily half hour morning program syndicated on mostly CBS
affiliates, but also ABC and NBC.
And it was before, like the Today show, for instance, or
before Good Morning America. And that was a really great
experience as well. Did you have pieces?
Sorry. It was.
It was big time. No, that was big time.
Yeah, did did you have a team that went with you everywhere or
was it were you like how did the you said I we pitched Disney,
right? Did you have like a group that
you said we're all going or was it?
I'm Consuelo and I'd like to do this show and I think it'll
work. Like, how did that?
How did you make that happen and who helped you make?
That actually, no, that's a really good question because
since today's business, I have had a team that's that's moved
with me. But before that I didn't because
they were, they were really, you know, small, tiny programs.
I'm just trying to remember how it happened is that I got
together with two men, a guy named Ron Tandelia, who was the
youngest producer on the network news program on television.
He was Eyewitness News. He was a pioneer and he liked
what I was doing. And then we had a, a, a post
production guy producer out in, in LA and the three of us got
together and then and we pitched Disney.
That's how that happened. And you know, it's all of you
know, it's just dumb luck. It's what, how a lot of this
these opportunities have come up.
It has not been strategic at all, Bill.
I wish I had been more strategic, but we, we weren't.
It just, you know, we just kind of lucked out.
Well, you were persistent, right?
So persistence can create its own lock.
Yeah. And the, and the markets are
endlessly fascinating. And more and more people were
doing, you know, their own investing.
And so it, it was a great time to be in the market.
And also the great bull market in bonds and stocks basically
started in 1982. So the last, you know, decades
have been pretty good times to be an an investor.
Yeah, yeah, that is that is definitely true.
What was the impetus to start Wealthtrack?
Heda told me. I didn't realize that that
Wealthtrack is your creation and you run the business side of all
that. Is that correct?
Do I have this? Wrong.
God help us. Luckily, I have a fabulous
senior producer and have had some terrific senior producers
to run the business side of it. I'm mostly content, but you
know, I, we do our own fundraising.
So the, the story between I'm and I'm not going to, I'm not
going to skip right to Wealthtrack because in between
today's business and Wealthtrack was an incredibly important time
in my career as a financial journalist.
And that is that I I worked for the Wall Street Journal and I
did their weekly television program, the Wall Street Journal
Report when they were doing that.
And that was huge for me because suddenly instead of being with
these, you know, small independent productions, I was
working for the Journal. And you know, who's raising
debtra is to cover a business and finance.
And that was a really fabulous experience.
And that's really where I built the team that has then, you
know, some of them have gone on with me to, to Wealthtrack.
But, you know, there's just no other organization as far as
that I've ever worked for, like the Wall Street Journal.
Little bit easier for to get people on the phone when you're
at the Journal as opposed to Channel 68 or something like
that, right? Yes, it was, yeah, a lot easier.
And, and also we were able to, you know, talk to the reporters
and, and also I, I was the only actually journalist at the Wall
Street Journal that had access to both the, The Newsroom, which
is completely separate from the editorial page, which is one of
the things that I love about the Wall Street Journal.
You really get 2 newspapers in one.
There is, there is no overlap. And I think this is so important
to recognize where whereas in many other publications the
editorial bent bleeds into the reporting staff.
It does not at the Wall Street Journal at all.
And, and so, but I was able to have access to the editorial
page because Bob Bartley was the editorial page, head of the
editorial page at the time, liked me, liked what I was doing
and said, you know, why don't you attend some of our meetings
and, and which was just great. And so that I got access to like
Margaret Thatcher, for instance, and, and, you know, Helmut Kohl.
And so, you know, these, you know, major world figures would
come in and I would go to meetings with them and Bob and
others on the editorial page would say, you know, do you want
us to try to have give you access for an interview?
And, and sometimes they'd say yes and sometimes they'd say no.
And Margaret Thatcher said yes. And that was like a once in a
lifetime experience. Yeah, that's amazing.
So what what? I mean, what was that like?
How nervous were you getting in going into that interview?
A wreck. I was a total wreck.
I still get very nervous in interviews.
I know, but Margaret Thatcher? Is slightly nervous at this
interview but but Margaret Thatcher was daunting because
she did not suffer fools gladly and you really had to know what
you're talking about. And quite honestly, I still feel
to this day that I was not up to the task, but it was just awe
inspiring because she had such a clear vision and of, of what she
wanted to do as the Prime Minister of the UK.
And, and her alliance with the United States, with Ronald
Reagan. And they, they moved the world.
Without them, their, you know, Berlin Wall wouldn't have fallen
or they wouldn't have, you know, been the dissipation of the
Soviet Union. I mean, she really made a huge
difference and in bringing the UK economy back.
So that was a tremendous privilege for me to interview
Margaret Thatcher, one of the highlights of my career.
When you were at that time right around, let's call it 81 to 85,
like throughout that, did you like, could you feel a change
going on in in the markets and and like was it apparent that a
bull market was starting? The reason I ask, you know, is
I, I was just listening to the like I referenced earlier,
right, Ed Heidman saying it could be the roaring twenty 20s,
it could be the 30s. Like I'm I'm curious to know.
Right. And that's actually Ed Yardeni.
I'm. Sorry, I'm sorry.
Ed Yardeni. You said that.
That's OK. Apologize.
No, not at all. But but Ed Yard, Ed Yardeni is
the one who said that this could be the Roaring 20s.
Yeah, again, the Twenty 20s. Yeah.
And and I'm just kind of curious, like when, when the
bull market of the secular bull started in the 80s, could you
feel it or, or did people not? No.
Yeah, no, as a matter of fact, I had Jim Grant on for the 40th
anniversary of Grant's interest rate observer.
And he noted, you know, and this is what I love about my guess is
that they're very honest about what they've missed.
And so, you know, he said like, you know, 198182.
Did I have any idea that this was the start of the greatest
bull market in, you know, in in bond history?
And no, you didn't feel it at all.
It was. It was.
You know who knew? Yeah.
Well, you know, it's, it's so interesting because I think,
yeah, I, I don't know, I don't know where we are now, right.
So, so it's interesting to read history and, and, and in in
retrospect, it's like, well, of course, you know, interest rates
were that high and markets had kind of gone nowhere for a
while. Of course that would be the
bull, but that it's when you're. Living it, it's not so easy.
No, not at all The you know, the remember the 87 market crash and
I, I can remember I think it was 1984 that Alan Greenspan, you
know, raised interest rates and I was on vacation.
I kind of went, Helen, what are you doing?
The market, you know, did, did not do well at that time.
It's fits and starts, but you know, if you look at the history
of the market, it goes up, you know, much more than it goes
down. But you know, behavioral
economics will tell you that, you know, that you feel your
losses twice as much as you feel your gains.
And so you know in the meantime, all of us are focused on kind of
the short term machinations of the market and and it's can be
very upsetting. You have access to to some of
the smartest minds. Do you feel more in tune with
the market because you get to talk to people that you get to
talk to or do you not feel as in tune like or or somewhere in
between? That's an interesting question
because I've, I've, in preparation for this interview,
I've been thinking about, you know, what have I learned?
And one of the things is it's not so much, and one of the
reasons that I started Wealthtrack is it's the great
investors don't focus on what's going on in the market.
They focus on what's going on with individual companies.
It's as simple as that. And so, you know, it's, there's
all the noise of the markets, which is one of the reasons that
I, you know, left CNBC to, to start Wealthtrack is that that,
you know, if, if you have to cover the markets on a daily
basis, the markets become the story.
And, and I felt that I needed to step away from the markets and
that for individual investors that it's, and also for, I, I
think quite honestly, for most active investors that, that you
have to focus on, on longer term wealth building in companies.
And so they, you know, long term diversified investing in depth
interviews about with great investors about long term
diversified investing is kind of is, is, has, is now our
signature on wealth track and that's what sets us apart.
But so, no, I, I don't, you know, they, everybody pays
attention to the markets, but that's not what is driving their
investment decisions. Yeah, You know what I love about
Wealthtrack? I mean, other than listening to
you interview people, which is awesome, but like you've now
been doing it for so long that like I can listen.
We were, we were talking about Bruce Berkowitz, who I know that
you brought some lessons from. So I can listen to him pitch
Sears on your program and listen to that pitch.
And now I can listen to the recent interview that you did
when he's talking about Saint Joe and controlling the outcome
and talking about how Freddie and Fannie changed his
perception of the legal rights regulators country.
Yeah. And and Enterprise Products.
He says, you know, 7 or 8% isn't so bad if you just do that
forever. It's kind of interesting to be
able to go and watch your interactions with different
investors over time. Well, that, you know, I think
Bruce Berkowitz is probably one of the most fascinating guests
that I've had along over the years and that's been a well
track exclusive and he hasn't come on too often, but Manhattan
Adler represents him as you know, and and you know, it was a
time to talk and we've been and so he felt he he really was
willing to talk about what's been happening with the
Fairholme fund. And you know, the Fairholme fund
has a phenomenal track record. You just had to stick with it.
So I, you know, I'm just, I'm just looking, it's, you know,
10% annual has returned since its 1999 inception and versus
the S&P 6% returns. This was a, a couple of months
ago. But, and, and that's another,
you know, one of the lessons that I've learned is that if, if
you're going to invest with an active manager that that you've
chosen because, you know, you believe in their discipline, you
believe in their culture, you believe in what they're doing it
which it's a good fit for your portfolio, then you've got to
stick with them because you can't time an active manager.
And Bruce Berkowitz is a a case in point, as is Bill Miller,
incidentally, is a case in point is, you know, another great
investor that, you know, had setbacks.
Well, duh. I mean, every, every great
investor has setbacks where they're underperforming the
market and and they make mistakes and they learn from
those mistakes. But you know, in general the
great investors have terrific long term track records.
You just got to stick with them. Yeah, and, and as an investor,
it I have found it's hard to separate, you know, when when
stocks are going against you or me, I'll just personalize it.
You know, it's hard not to let's say I hired Bruce and I'm
watching Sears happen and, and some of the other stocks aren't
going our way. I it's hard to not like it's
hard to. That's when you find out, can
you actually be married to the person, right?
It's like when the trust is truly tested, can you stick?
It's all it's easy when things are going well and that's that's
the key, right? That's what separates.
That's why so few investors tend to actually realize the returns
of the underlying securities that.
That they own. There's this huge
underperformance gap that we've covered a lot on well truck over
the years. The morning starts done, you
know, research on I think as is the investment company
institute, but you know the investor, individual investor in
a in an individual fund, you know way underperforms the fund
itself. Why do you think that is?
I, I, I have a theory that it's probably that they're over
allocated, so that kind of a drawdown really hurts them more
than everybody should. I, I think right, no, no, I, I,
I, I think it is because thinking fast and slow, Daniel
Kahneman's wonderful book, of course, he just died the Nobel
Prize winner. And you know his, his point is
that human beings are not rational and we're, we're very
biased and, and we think that short term results are going to
last and therefore we make, we make really stupid investment
decisions. So it's it, it is that the
factor that losses are, you know, twice as painful at least
as as gains are. Yeah, yes, there's a different
but similar thought that I've read and and I just want to put
it out there. It's negative thinking is almost
100% effective, right I think. That's kind of interesting.
I think it's kind of. Interesting, and it's all a lot
brings. Truth to it.
And it's infective too. It's a whole lot easier to get
your brain to go negative than it is to get positive.
And and I right, it rhymes with investing.
Not the same. But, well, not only that, I
mean, another thought that some of my guests have had as well is
that you get a lot more attention if you're negative,
too. You know, the press loves to
talk to people who are negative. You know, who wants a positive
story? So it's.
Yeah. Yeah, so how did, how have you
maintained your integrity and gone about your business and the
way that you have without chasing, you know, macro doomers
that that would help probably your ratings.
But I, I love tuning into your show 'cause I, I truly know that
I'm I'm gonna get a conversation that's rational and topical.
And how do you avoid that temptation to chase the ratings?
Right. Well, I'm on public television,
PBS, so they don't pay a lot of attention to ratings.
At least they haven't with us. We're a niche program that makes
a huge difference. I couldn't do this on network
television, no question about it.
And, and because we're an educational program, you know,
we're really trying to educate our our audience about how to be
good investors and make, you know, good financial decisions.
So that's why I don't have to chase that.
But I have to admit it was, you know, the people who were, you
know, concerned leading up certainly to the to the.com
bubble. And as, as you know, I mean, you
know, greats like Julian Robertson said, I don't
understand this business anymore.
So I'm I'm going to get out of the business.
And, you know, we, we reached that point where the exhaustion
of fighting the dot a bubble, it's, it was really hard to have
people on. I mean, Dave Rosenberg talked
about that, who used to, you know, was the chief economist at
Merrill Lynch for a while now has Rosenberg research out of
Canada. And you know, he was saying
Merrill Lynch forbade him from using the word bear market
because it was a bull market. And he, it's, it's really hard
to withstand the, the pressure of any sort of a bull market or,
or an enduring bear market. So I've, I've certainly has been
as susceptible as anyone to that, where it's hard to have
people, you know, the broken clock is right twice a day.
It's hard to have people who have been very bearish when
you're in a bull market. Yeah, I, I guess what I was
thinking is, is you could very easily do a lot of macro
podcasts and, or, or interviews or whatever.
And, and you, you don't and, and I really respect how you go
about it. And I am going to take your PBS
comment as you've set yourself up in a structurally advantage
situation, much like a fund manager that maybe has permanent
capital because, you know, I don't know, I care about how
many people listen to this, right.
But, but there's something about I don't want to go down that
route. That route seems very
unfulfilling chasing the the views and the next who can be
scarier type interviews. I don't.
I don't like that, but that's what gets the clicks.
Right, except, you know, I just I'm not I wouldn't be good at
that. So that's another thing, you
know, I wanted and and I'm I learn from every program that I
do. I mean, honestly, when I, you
know, interview my guest that we, you know, handpick that have
tremendous track records that are known for their integrity,
that are respected by their peers that are rated by
independent agencies like Morningstar.
Those are the guests that we have on.
And I find them fascinating because they, they love what
they're doing. Bill, you know, you've said this
on your podcast. They're, they're constantly
challenging themselves and, you know, they have a tremendous,
they have a discipline, they stick to it.
And I, I think they have intellectual integrity and, and
it's, it's hard, you know, those are fewer, far and fewer between
now because of the passive, the move to passive investing is, is
the default option now. And so it's, it's very, you
know, it's hard to be an active manager these days.
And yet I think that it, it can be still incredibly rewarding
because fewer and fewer people are doing it, you know, and
you're competing against the indexes and you're also
competing against all the quants and the, the machines that seem
to have done very well. But you know, when's that gonna
blow up or when, when will their, their performance become
average? Because everyone's doing it.
Yeah, I don't know. I, I was having a conversation
with an RAA yesterday and he's a, a go getter type and I, I
enjoyed talking to him very much.
But one thing that he said is he said, well, public markets
investing is, is really pretty easy.
You just need to put your, your clients in the SMP because
that's what clients are gonna care about anyway.
So you do the SMP with some structured notes and that kind
of provides you with some downside protection and yadda,
yadda. And I was like, I don't know
about this, but I do. I do believe that a lot of
people are thinking that way and it's an interesting guide.
Right, because you know, it's easy.
Well, it's just the market. It's easy to defend yourself.
It's just the market versus, well, why did you choose that
particular money manager? And it is, it's the default
option. It's it's, it works for most
people, I think. And, but I think there's still
tremendous room for top active managers and, and they can
protect you in down markets, whereas if you're in an index
fund, you have no protection and you're investing in everything
regardless of what the quality is.
So I mean, I'm, I'm still a huge believer in active management
and I'd certainly easier for me to interview an active manager
than it is to interview an index.
That would be a tough one that has a little something to do
with it too. That's on the come Consuelo.
Microsoft just released those faces that can talk, so.
Yeah, believe me, I'm easily replaceable.
I know. No question.
I don't know about that, but but the go ahead.
No, no, no, please. Well, the other fun thing is
that, you know, passive indexes are not passive at all.
So we did a really fun interview with Jerry O'Reilly, who is the
portfolio manager of the world's largest index fund, which is the
largest mutual fund. I'm sorry, it's the the
Vanguard, you know, all market mutual fund.
And I probably got the exact name wrong because he is
managing several. But at any rate, so Jerry
O'Reilly is on the trading floor every day, and they're
constantly reconstituting the S&P 500 and the S&P 1500, and it
is an active manager's job. And so, you know, who are we
kidding? There's still a lot going on in
these passive indexes that aren't so passive.
Yeah, it's, it's going to be very interesting.
I did pull up because I, I've been on this ETF journey and I
reread Joel Greenblatt's, what is it?
He calls it? It's still the big secret for
the small investor because no one read it.
But you know, like the, the VTV, that's a pretty interesting
index. I, I kinda, I can get my head
around that one for the long term, right?
Like the S&P with a value tilt. That makes sense to me, but I
don't, I don't know. I just have this nagging
feeling, and maybe it's from living through the GFC, that
when everybody's on one side of the boat, sometimes things go
really wrong. No, and that's where you need,
you know, diversification in one of the one of our guests, a guy
named Peter Bernstein, who wrote against the gods, the remarkable
story of risk, which is a wonderful book.
You know, it said, I mean two things to me that have stuck
with me. One, the future is unknowable.
Just repeat that the future is unknowable.
The future is unknowable. Peter always said that which is
true. No one has a, a, an accurate
crystal ball. And, and I'm just trying to
think what and the other one was the other quote that Peter
Bernstein said on Wealthtrack, which is really terrific, is
that you're not truly diversified unless you own
something that you are uncomfortable with.
And So what you're talking about as being on, if everybody is on
one side of the boat, you're not diversified, you're not fully
diversified and and you have to own things that are.
That you're uncomfortable with and at one point when gold was
going nowhere and Peter, you know, we were talking about gold
being something that you're uncomfortable with as a
basically an insurance policy against the unthinkable.
And. And there are through you know,
throughout different market periods, there are times when
you know small cap value for instances goes through periods
of being very unpopular emerging markets right now for.
Small cap value too the last 10 years has not been kind.
No, it has not been. And yet Chuck Royce has been one
of my exclusive Wealthtrack guests over the years who just
celebrated his 50th anniversary at the, you know, Pennsylvania
mutual fund. And and his track record long
term is also very good. And he's, you know, he's Chuck
and Royce associates. They are small cap managers.
That's all we're going to do. And if you want to be
diversified into small cap, then Royce is is a place that you
know that they're not gonna deviate and they will find value
in the small cap space because there is value there.
Yeah, yeah. That, that I've watched.
I mean, they're sort of my proxy for AUM flowing out of small
caps. And it's, it's been interesting
to watch. It's not because of performance,
I don't think. I think it's just because you
know, it's hard to look at it at A at an asset class that is not
performing relative to asset classes that are and not get
that. FOMO, right?
Absolutely. The more things change and stay.
The same. No, they do.
And it's, and again, listening to your podcast with, with
Matthew Sweeney is what's very difficult to be a value investor
anyhow. And because you're looking at
companies that are unpopular or that are unrecognized and you
are going against the flow. And I remember a couple of Jean
Marie of a yard who was at first Eagle ran the first Eagle fund
and, and Matt McLennan, who took over for him in the midst of the
financial crisis in 2008. So Matt has been a, a, you know,
a regular guest on Wealthtrack as well.
And, you know, they are, they just kind of have to ignore
what, what the markets are telling them as far as what's
really popular and just keep looking for those, you know,
resilient companies that are going to compound over the years
and that are financially strong. You know that you're not going
to, you know, lose money, the permanent impairment of capital,
which is a mortal sin. If you're a money manager.
And, and you know, they're, you can rely on them to continue to
do the kind of value investing that they've been doing for
years. But it, it's, it's not easy.
It takes a really strong stomach.
Yeah. And to your point, sticking with
somebody. Right, Right.
Yeah, right. I I don't think I asked you
this, but but it's on my mind. You had mentioned that you vet
the guests. What does it look like?
What does the Consuela Mac vetting process look like?
When people are pinging you to get onto Wealthtrack, what are
some of your filters? Well, they have to have a track
record and it's really at least 20 years.
So I, I want to see how they've done through several market
cycles, word of mouth. So you know, who do you pay
attention to? You know, who do you listen to
Bill? Who when a, when a, a
shareholder letter comes out, you know, what are you reading?
So it's peer-to-peer respect. It's, you know, recognition of,
as I said, independent resources, independent
evaluators and, and also what is there, we have a no jerks rule
on Wealthtrack is that I know I've interviewed before
Wealthtrack, which is now we're in our 20th season, going into
our 20th season, you know, I've, I've had to interview a lot of
different people that I had no control over the booking of and
life's too short. So I, I want to interview people
that I like and that I respect and, and are known for their
integrity. Integrity is really important
and the culture of a firm is really important because there,
there were so many changes going on in, in Wall Street firms and
also in the mutual fund industry, 'cause I'm, I'm
dealing with products that that individual investors can invest
with. And so, you know, you will see,
you know, funds that aren't doing well retired or merged
into another fund or not necessarily a bad thing, but,
but, or a money manager that at one point, you know, said that
they were in this specialty and now suddenly they've changed,
you know, now they've become a growth fund.
And so those are really important to me the, the
culture, because any of us individual investors, we have a,
a, a long investing life. If you're starting in your 20s,
you know, we're talking about 60 or 70 years of investing.
So I you want to be with firms that are that you can trust that
are going to be around and that are, are going to continue to to
do what you're they're best at. So in integrity and the culture
of the firms that I interviewed are really important.
And I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but what I'm hearing
when you're talking is that you seem very passionate about the
individual investor and I mean certainly in will track, it's
apparent that you are doing a service like where did that come
from in you? Why do you think that's
something that drives you, assuming I'm right?
Right. I think probably it comes from
my family and terrific parents and wonderful brother, great
grandparents who really felt how important it was to be honest
with individuals and to be as helpful as you can, a real
public service orientation. So that really is what motivates
me. It's this is where I'm doing a
public service on public television.
Yeah, I like it. That's how I tried to treat this
podcast. I, I've, I've said to myself, I,
I wanted something that I wanted to build something that if I
were kind of giving to my son, right, or to my kids, like what,
what would I say? Listen to this and then figure
out how you think of the world. I don't care if you agree with
me. I don't care if you agree with
any particular guest. I care about you listening to
people's perspectives and figuring out what resonates with
you. And that's what I'm trying to
build, which is it's, it's fulfilling, right?
It is definitely. Yeah.
How has journalism changed since you started?
Has it always kind of been after like the story of the day?
Is that is it more that? Way now tremendously as have the
markets. I mean there are so many more
options and journalism, as you said, it's you know, it's turned
into clicks and attracting clicks.
So there's, there is a, there's a lot of unserious journalism
out there. Certainly, you know, on the
Internet, no question about that.
And it's very competitive. And you have to recognize that
people are shorter attention spans.
I mean, if you're, if you're really in this to have a
profitable business, which I'm not because at any rate.
We have things in common. Yeah, we should be a
not-for-profit, but we're not. But at any rate, so journalism
has changed tremendously. And that's why it's so important
to have the Wall Street Journal or the Financial Times.
I mean, I think editors are really important because
pressure now is to deliver the information first, regardless of
whether it's right or not. And that's really dangerous.
And so I, I think that there is a, a, a big gap growing between
people who are, who really are journalists and do their
homework and, and check and double check because that takes
time. And the rest of the, I mean, a
lot of podcasters and I'm not putting them down, but people
who are just interested in hearing their own opinions.
As I opine, here I am. That's not true.
You're on my show. That's different.
Yeah, I think so. I think there's a huge divide
between really good journalism and just kind of sensational
opinions. Yeah.
And so that's that's been a, a big, big change and the markets
have changed tremendously. I mean, they're much more
democratic than they've ever been.
I mean, I can, you know, I have a, one of our guests is a guy
named Bill Wilby who used to run the Oppenheimer World Fund.
That was the number one global fund when he was running it many
years ago for the 12 years that he ran it.
And, and you know, Bill was saying that that he's basically
unplugged from research from all of the like Bloomberg and, and I
don't want to, you know, disparage Bloomberg because
they're phenomenal. They were wonderful service.
But he said, you know, I can just go online now and on Google
and there are just a few things that I need to subscribe to in
order to run my own retirement portfolio.
And so that's a huge change as well.
And of course, the, you know, deregulation since I have been
in the business since the 70s, I mean, commissions were
deregulated and interest rates were deregulated.
And there's just been a tremendous explosion of the
financial news with CNBC and the financial news network and then
CNBC and, you know, now Fox Business News said there are a
ton of resources out there. It's, it's overwhelming.
And that's, I think what we're trying to do on Wealthtrack, at
least I find it overwhelming is just talk to known quantities
who again, you know, have the track records that I, they're
true professionals. And so once a week, that's what
we're trying to do. Have an in depth discussion with
an individual about the process, their investment process and how
they see the, the world and, and what their investment strategies
are. And we just ask them for one
investment idea at the end of every program.
We're not getting 100 investment ideas like you know you would
on, on CNBC, which does a great job covering the markets on a
daily basis, but you're gonna get one like is there one thing
that we should all own in a long term diversified portfolio?
So that's how I've we've really set ourselves apart and I'm not
gonna deviate from that. Yeah, nor should you.
I I think it's a winning formula.
I these are my words, not yours. But I did.
CNBC does a great job of keeping people tuned in.
I don't know about all the although if David Faber, if
you're listening, you are the real deal.
I love David Faber, that guy. 'S Oh, he's wonderful.
He's legit. They've got a they've got a
number of people that are good over there.
But you. Know it's just it's an insanity.
It's terrific. It is terrific, but it's it's
they have a different mission and they've got to cover the
markets and the markets is their story.
No, I'm, you know, I'm a huge fan of CNBC, so no question
about it. But I wanted to do something
different and, you know, CNBC probably wouldn't be interested
in the kind of program that I'm doing.
Yeah, yeah. It would have to be on like late
night or something like that, right?
It it it could not be. But they've got Shark Tank and
they've got, you know, they've got these wonderful programs,
they're doing great. So, you know, I'm a huge fan.
It's just that there there's room for a different message and
a different approach, and that's what Wealthtrack is.
What's What's your audience demo?
Do you have any idea? Right.
No, no, I mean we do, we, we don't get Nielsen because
Nielsen's really expensive to get.
So but we do know what are because we do surveys.
And so, you know, our audience demos are largely college
educated graduate degrees, well, middle to and up, middle income
and up and about, I guess about 40% of our audience is actually
under 44. And the other, you know, 60% is
over 45. So that's where our demographics
are. And, and it's, it's largely men
still. I mean, I, our audience for
women is growing, but, and having, you know, online has
just been a huge boon to our audience growth.
And that's where we're attracting the, the younger
viewers is on our YouTube channel.
So, you know, if you go on wealthtalk.com, you can, you
know, stream us and, and we do podcasts, not as many as you do,
but the show is, is actually is available as a podcast.
So yeah. And we, we're, we're going
without doing any advertising or it's all organic growth and word
of mouth and you know, the wonderful linkages that that
YouTube does. I think I found you through the
Apple podcast player. I think I think, you know,
2018-2019 or something you recommended.
And I started listening and I was like, oh, this is great.
So yeah, interesting. What?
What we? Try to do is, is have guests
from with very different perspectives on.
And I and I think probably two of the most diverse examples
that I can give are, as we talked about Bruce Berkowitz,
the Fairholme Fund that is now like, you know, 80% plus in
Saint Joe, the real estate firm in Florida.
And Matthew McLennan, who's on the other end of the spectrum,
both value investors, but, and you know, both very much don't
want to experience the permanent impairment of capital.
But Matt McLennan, who you know, is, is running a, a $80 billion
portfolio at First Eagle, their global value fund or their
global international fund that has several 100 companies in it.
And you know, two very different approaches.
But let let me give you some sound bites from Bruce Berkowitz
of the Fairholme Fund and some of the lessons that he's learned
and I that he I am more hesitant to deal with highly regulated
businesses where one civil servant can decide whether a
very large company lives or dies based upon a perception of
social good and without any respect for the owners.
So Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, he, he fought a long fight to
try to get the private shareholders or the public
shareholders recognized and have ownership again in Freddie and
Fannie and has failed so far. But Fannie and Freddie are
making a ton of money, but the government owns them and the
shareholders were basically cut out of, of that success story.
One of the reasons that he invested them in the 1st place.
And then the other one was that what he learned through his
experience at Sears, which was a bruising experience as you know,
as an investor in Sears, is that that he decided that if he was
going to take a big position in a company ever again, that he
would have ownership. So that he was in a position to
really dictate what the policies and the strategies of the
companies would be. And Saint Joe is a perfect
example of that where he's now chairman of the board, largest
shareholder. And so that those were kind of a
couple of lessons that I thought were worth sharing.
And with Matt McLennan, who has a, a, a terrific track where he
runs a balanced fund. It's not, you know, pure stocks
at all like Bruce's, but the first Eagle funds are, are, you
know, broadly diversified. They're value oriented.
They always have a 10% stake at least in gold as kind of ballast
for the portfolio as he, as he explains it.
But they're looking for resilient companies that that
will are, you know, good will produce results for the long
term. And one of the said the things
that he said recently was in a world that's uncertain, you have
to be willing to invest in a range of different business
opportunities at regional prices.
We don't tend to get too carried away with anyone investment and
that's been part of the reason we've been provided an element
of resilience over the long term.
So he's been broad based portfolio, 2 very different
approaches that have done very well for shareholders over the
years. Yeah.
Do you have any views on, I mean, well, the question that
you ask is one investment for a well diversified portfolio.
So I suspect you lean towards diversification.
Yeah. Yes.
So the the set up with that is that we have these portfolio
managers on who are managing portfolios.
So it's like picking your favorite child, but you know,
just, you know, one, if you were to could just, you know, put one
stock that we should add to a diversified portfolio, what
would it be? And so those are the ideas that
we get, you know, from them. Yeah, Well, I, I only ask
because there is a school of thought that says put all your
eggs in one basket and watch that basket closely.
And then there's a school of thought that that says
diversification is the way to to survive, right.
So. Well, there's room for both.
Curious, all these interviews, all these great people that
you've interviewed. I I wonder how that's changed
your opinion or evolved your thinking on that if it has.
Right. There's room for both and I
think that everyone should have a very, you know, a broadly
diversified portfolio and therefore there is room for a
Bruce Berkowitz for one portion of your portfolio and maybe a
core. And no, Morningstar is called
the first single global fund, you know, kind of one of the top
kind of all in one portfolios because they invest across, you
know, different asset classes. I mean, they do stocks and
bonds, they do international domestic.
And so it's kind of a core holding.
You want something like a first yield fund.
And and I'm again, I'm not making a recommendation, but
these are the kind of guests that we have on.
And what I've learned over the years is that that you do need
to be broadly diversified and that that there's room for
multiple money managers and there's room for having an index
fund too. Yep.
To participate. It, it was my own stupidity, but
for a while I was not able to hold both thoughts in my head.
But thankfully I was younger and, and had a lot less back
then. But you know, I, I, I kinda, I
mean, you know, concentration, you can get risk rich, right?
But you also can lose everything or or maybe not everything, but
a lot. So the volatility is tough to
stomach. Yeah.
So where are the customers yachts?
So, right, yeah, that's that's why I think it's great to have
the concentration again in a in a portion of your portfolio with
managers that that run their portfolios that way.
Yeah, diversified concentration slightly.
Yeah, I agree. Diversified, right?
Yeah, with diversification, with concentration.
Yes, it makes this makes sense to me.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, I get it. Yeah.
I don't know. I wanna talk to you Bor, but I
don't know what to talk about. This is how it how it goes.
I I you know, I was gonna ask you for a book recommendation,
but I don't know about a book recommendation.
How long are you gonna do? Well, track what's what's going
on in no. So, you know, I mean, ask, you
know, ask Warren Buffett when he's gonna retire and, and you
know, ask Charlie Munger when he was gonna retire and Dan
Fawcett, Lewis Sales, who's still, you know, and his 19 is
still working. And, you know, there, I think
Charlie Ellis, who wrote what, what a book that I would
recommend winning the Loser's Game is in his 80s.
And he said this is one of the wonderful things about this
business is that, you know, you are, you're constantly learning.
The environment is constantly changing and you meet some
really neat people along the way.
And, and you can keep, you know, doing it for as long as you've
got an audience. That so I, I mean, I love what
I'm doing. I I heard.
You know, in in one of your podcasts that you know, you say
you can't imagine going on the golf course and just retiring
would be devastating to me. I would shrivel up and.
You. Know intellectually and I I
really the metal challenge and having deadlines is is really
good for me and it and I and I get a tremendous amount of
energy from other people. That's where I get my
stimulation and energy is from talking to really smart people.
That makes sense. So you're, you're like an
extrovert with the big time interest in the markets that
enjoys talk. Yes, All right.
And big time interest in helping individuals build wealth over
the long term. I mean, that's, that's the
motivating factor. And and I think we've really, I
think our through our guests, I think our guests have helped our
audience do that over the years. And we've certainly had some
terrific feedback from our audience from all walks of life.
It's really great on the, on the subway, the one of the
conductors will come up to me in New York City and say, you know,
I watch your program and it's really helped me.
And you know, I, I started a 529 program for my grandchild or
we've I've gotten a lot of terrific feedback and, and from
a lot of women, especially who are tend to be ignored in by
Wall Street, even though that's becoming less the case now.
Well, as as one audience member who is very grateful to have
gotten to interview you, I will say that, you know, they, they
say don't meet your heroes. I would, I'm gonna put you up as
the counter to that because the way that you speak about what
you do and how apparent it is that you care about the right
things. I I'm really happy that you
found this calling and I hope you get to do it as long as you
want to and someday I'd love to meet and do this in person
because that. 'D be great, I would love.
To do like a genuinely good person, I think, and I think we
got a lot in common, so it'd be nice.
I know, Bill, thanks so much and I'm I'm so glad that I was
introduced to you by by Hannah Nadler.
So this is terrific and I'm you have just gained another podcast
viewer. Well, thank you.
Consuela Mac. So I I really appreciate the
opportunity. You know what?
I love it. Is great.
We're so lucky. You know, what I loved about
Heta's interview was when she went into, she said that like
growing up as poor as she did was a gift.
And, and I was, I thought that was like one of the best parts
of the entire podcast because it really shook me and, and, and
forced me to listen And who, who she is, is she's an incredible
person. Oh, she's an amazing person.
She really is. And just so enthusiastic and so
smart. Yeah, she really is.
And and I think she also said something about, you know, you
deal with the reality that you're given and it's you don't
decide whether if you're in high school, you know, Gee, do I
really want a job? Well, she had to work and she
said so. Sure.
So she'll, you know, she'll enjoy work, she'll be happy
about it. And that's that's kind of my
attitude about life too. You have a choice when you get
up in the morning or you're going to be miserable or you're
going to be happy. And it's being happy and
optimistic. Is a is a a much better choice,
much more fun and enjoyable than the alternative?
That is 100% true. I cannot let you leave without
asking you one investment for diversified portfolio.
What would you recommend? Well, I do.
You think I'm gonna give you one?
I would hope so you you have enough to.
Pick from but I you know, I I don't give investment advice
either, but my guess certainly do.
Fair enough. Listen to Weltrack to get them
weekly. Yeah, exactly.
That's right. My one investment is to is
invest and stay invested because it works out in the long term.
That's a pretty good one. All right.
Well, thank you so much for joining me.
Thanks, Bill. I hope you enjoyed it and I
certainly. Did I?
Did too all right, have a great
one. Take care.
Thanks. Bye.
You too.
Bye. Bye.