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You're listening to episode 253 
of the Marathon Running Podcast.

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In this episode, we're going to 
talk about pain tolerance and 

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pain threshold. 
This is the Marathon Running 

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Podcast by Letty and Ryan from 
We Got the Runs. 

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Join us in our running community
for weekly content that is 

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motivational, educational, and 
inspirational. 

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And let the Marathon running 
podcast take you from the 

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starting line to the finish line
and beyond. 

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Hey runners, and welcome to 
episode 252. 

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My name is Letty. 
My name is Ryan. 

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And we are back for another 
wonderful episode on anything 

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that can help you train better 
and perform better during your 

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marathon. 
Ryan, how have you been? 

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I'm doing well. 
How about you? 

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Doing well myself, just hanging 
out here talking to you. 

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So what's the topic for today? 
So today we are going to talk 

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about another scientific aspect,
but also because of it mental 

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aspect. 
We're going to talk about pain 

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threshold and pain tolerance. 
And we're talking about all that

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because once you understand 
that, that level of 

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understanding will hopefully 
help help you while you are 

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running your marathon, while you
are pushing through the hard 

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miles to keep pushing rather 
than stopping. 

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Yes, these are the interesting 
ones to me. 

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I love the ones that are 
scientific based or based on 

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research because I end up 
learning a lot. 

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Sometimes some little things or 
little tips here and there that 

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you might not think logically 
makes sense too improve 

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performance. 
So it's kind of fun. 

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I agree with you and you know 
how I always say mental mental 

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shows or mental mental topics 
are my favorite when it comes to

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the podcast? 
And then I always used to say, 

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oh, my mind is so weak and I 
want to learn, learn, learn, 

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learn. 
And I feel like over the last 

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few years I've learned so much 
that I don't feel that my mind 

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is that weak anymore. 
Yeah, I think it's always hard 

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to quantify the mental aspect of
running or any sports athletics.

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And but when I think this is one
that that you can kind of 

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appreciate or understand a 
little bit better than some 

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others. 
Typically you when you start 

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feeling pain or you start 
feeling that urge to just stop, 

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it comes way before the physical
symptoms. 

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I know that it sometimes if if 
people pass beyond like their 

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physical abilities, you know, 
you start vomiting, you start 

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doing other stuff, maybe with 
running, you pass out or other 

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things. 
But for most, most people, you 

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psychologically kind of get to 
the point where you stop before 

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you get to the physical points 
of actually stopping. 

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That being said though, you can 
really get yourself into 

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physical harm by pushing too 
far, so you should obviously not

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go too far as well either. 
If you're one of the people that

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stops really early and you could
maybe push it further, it might 

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be good for you. 
But if you want the people that 

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just pushes through and passes 
out or you know, gets to the 

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physical aspects of it too fast 
and you got to be careful. 

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Yes. 
And that's our legal slash 

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medical disclaimer from our team
here. 

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Do not do that. 
And if you do that, do not sue 

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us. 
No, just have a good support 

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group or have good coaches or 
other people that can, you know,

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help help you understand the 
cues that your body is giving 

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you and listen to your body, but
also know that, you know, you 

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might be able to push beyond a 
bit. 

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I think it's relative also to to
other sports. 

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One of the big ones that I think
of is just free diving. 

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Free diving is one that you have
to resist the urge to breathe. 

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Your body increases like carbon 
dioxide concentration, which is 

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I think from my understanding, 
the primary cause of, you know, 

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your trigger to want to breathe.
And a lot of the free divers 

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learn how to overcome that in 
order to dive longer. 

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And the human body is actually 
really good at lasting a lot 

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longer than most people hold 
their breath. 

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However, you also hear free 
divers that end up dying and 

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passing out shallow water 
blackout because they held it 

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too long. 
But back on topic to running. 

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Yes, back on topic to running. 
In order to tackle this episode 

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we asked no one else but Hugo 
von de Brock who has been on a 

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couple of weeks ago. 
He is an amazing runner that 

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used to run Elite for the 
Netherlands. 

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His PR is a 212 and that was 
before any of those amazing 

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running shoes existed. 
He now lives in Kenya where he 

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has a Kenyan run camp and 
coaches run of all levels. 

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I will link all his information 
in the show notes because I 

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think he's a very interesting 
individual and he's learning 

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with and from the best down 
there in Kenya. 

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And he is really well versed 
when it comes to the psychiatry 

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and all the mind stuff of 
running. 

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When he was 22 years old, he had
a running psychologist that 

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worked with him and helped him 
obviously accomplish his goals. 

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And so he knows so much when it 
comes to that and he keeps up to

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to date by reading tons of 
studies. 

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So I felt like he was a 
wonderful guest for that. 

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So. 
You want to get into it. 

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Sure. 
So without any further ado, 

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we're now going to play our 
conversation with Hugo. 

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All right, so I'm back on with 
Hugo. 

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Hugo, thank you so much for 
joining me again. 

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Thank you for having me Letty, 
I'm happy to be there. 

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Yes. 
And just to do a quick reminder,

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because we had you on, I think 
this is going to air a few 

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weeks, maybe a month after your 
first podcast with us. 

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So just do a quick reminder of 
who you are and how you're an 

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expert in the field of coaching 
runners. 

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Sure. 
So my name is Hugo Fandenbrook. 

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I'm from the Netherlands, but 
I've been living in Kenya for 

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the last 17 years. 
I've been running from the age 

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of 15. 
I was an elite marathon, half 

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marathon runner from age of 22 
until 37. 

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And yeah, the last 10-11 years 
of my life I've been coaching, 

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coaching both elite runners and 
energy runners from around the 

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world. 
Yeah. 

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So that's what I've been doing 
and organized running camps in 

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Kenya. 
I have a guest house here, 2 

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guest houses actually, where we 
accommodate runners from all 

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over the world. 
And yeah, I'm especially 

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interested in this subject of, 
you know, mindset and, and how 

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to become mentally strong and, 
and, and how to basically 

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control your performance. 
Perfect. 

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You summed it up great. 
And I guess with that, we'll hop

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right into today's topic, which 
is going to be pain threshold 

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and pain tolerance, something 
very interesting. 

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But before we talk about that, 
maybe tell us what the 

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difference is between pain 
threshold and pain tolerance, 

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and why does that matter for 
athletes? 

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Right, right. 
So yeah, this is something that 

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of course scientists come up 
with and to kind of distinguish 

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between the first moment you 
experience something as pain and

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the amount of pain you're able 
to tolerate, right. 

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So you're paying threshold is so
let's say now you you have 

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something that kind of increases
in pain from number scale of one

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to 100, maybe from 1 to 15. 
You wouldn't call it pain. 

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You would just say that's you 
feel something. 

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But at some point you would say,
now I experienced this as pain, 

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I can handle it. 
But yeah, it does feel a bit 

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painful. 
So that's your pain threshold. 

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And then pain tolerance is the 
maximum amount of pain you're 

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willing to to handle or to 
persevere, right? 

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So that's the difference between
the two. 

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OK. 
And with that, why do you think 

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that active people and athletes 
generally have a higher pain 

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tolerance than inactive 
individuals? 

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Well, I think for a couple of 
reasons. 

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I think first of all, there's a 
little bit self selection there.

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I think people who have a really
low paying threshold are not so 

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likely to choose running as a 
sport, right? 

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So people who choose running, 
they know like at some point it 

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gets a bit harder and yeah, 
people with a very low threshold

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will, will stop running, I 
guess. 

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You know, they, they, it's not 
something they really enjoy 

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doing. 
But I think even more than that,

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the biggest thing is just that 
every training session that you 

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do is both a physical workout 
and a mental workout. 

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Because every time you run, 
you're actually training your 

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brain that it's OK what you're 
doing. 

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You're not, you know, in the 
danger zone. 

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You're not going to die. 
You're not going to get a heart 

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attack. 
You'll be OK, right? 

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So you're able to, because of 
the training that you do, you, 

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you teach yourself to handle the
pain. 

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Research shows not necessarily 
that it's because of training, 

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but it does show that runners 
have a higher pain tolerance and

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ultra runners have an even even 
higher pain tolerance than 

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irregular runners. 
So, for example, there is some 

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research that has been done with
ultra runners and just, you 

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know, active people who were 
asked to put their hand in a 

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very cold ice bath. 
And I think the maximum amount, 

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the maximum length of time they 
were supposed to keep their hand

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in the ice, but was 2 minutes. 
But the scientist just told 

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them, just put your hand in the 
ice water and tell us every 20 

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seconds how painful it is. 
And when it's the when it's too 

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painful for you, you remove your
hand, right. 

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And they had to score the pain 
on, I think it was a scale of 

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one to 10. 
So from the regular people, most

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people are not able to hold 
their hands in the water for 

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more than two minutes. 
They all pulled out their hand 

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before that and said, now I've 
reached the maximum amount of 

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pain, like a score of 10. 
Whereas the ultra runners 

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without exception were able to 
hold their hand in the water for

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the full 2 minutes. 
And when they were then asked, 

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how painful is it? 
It is, they would say it's a 

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score of 5 or 6, right? 
So of course, this is a very 

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objective measurement because 
it's like it's the same for 

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everyone in a in a physical way.
But it's interesting that in a 

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mental way, those ultra runners,
they probably compare that with 

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the pain that they have in a 
race, which is so much higher 

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than, you know, putting your 
hand in ice water. 

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So yeah, they would say like, 
this is an average pain and they

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could probably still continue 
for many, many more minutes 

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holding their hand inside. 
Wow, that's crazy. 

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Let me take a step back and go 
back to pain threshold just to 

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clarify that further. 
Which one of the two or both do 

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you think is static? 
Is is it possible to change pain

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threshold as well? 
There's not so much research 

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done in that area. 
I think it's, yeah, pain 

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tolerance is the the main one 
that you want to change pain 

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threshold, probably you can 
change it a little bit, but not 

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that much. 
And I think also the research 

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does show that it's especially 
pain tolerance where runners 

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excel in a way that they score a
lot higher. 

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So they do experience the pain, 
but they can just handle it a 

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lot better. 
And they don't rate it as very, 

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very painful, right. 
But they would still say, yeah, 

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I can feel that it's pain, 
right. 

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So that's the, the pain 
threshold between runners and 

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and non runners. 
It's, there's not a huge 

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difference there. 
The biggest difference is in 

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pain tolerance. 
So they both feel something as 

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painful, but the runners are 
just able to resist that pain 

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for much longer. 
And you believe that is due to 

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training, right? 
Mostly, yes. 

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Like I said, there is a little 
bit of self selection there 

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because people who who are 
naturally able to handle pain 

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are more likely to choose an 
endurance sport because 

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enduring, you know, yeah, that's
where the name endurance sport 

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maybe comes from. 
But it's you're enduring 

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against, against tiredness, 
against pain. 

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So all endurance sports have 
that mental component, of 

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course, where you're you, you 
reach a certain point, 

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especially in a race where 
you're kind of suffering. 

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And that doesn't count, of 
course, for all training 

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sessions. 
But I think most runners are 

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doing one or two sessions a week
that are quite hard. 

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So if your, your pain tolerance 
is, is really low in your pain 

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threshold also, this is probably
something you don't enjoy doing,

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right? 
So I think there's a little bit 

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of self selection there, but 
it's definitely true. 

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I mean, we know from research as
well that the training that we 

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do increases our pain tolerance.
Perfect. 

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00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,080
And I guess with that, I want to
hop into the next question. 

230
00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:32,080
My next question is when it 
comes to the mental and physical

231
00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:36,440
connection of this, do you think
that a higher pain tolerance is 

232
00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,600
more mental, physical, or a mix 
of both? 

233
00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,120
I think it's mostly mental in a 
way. 

234
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:49,000
I mean, I mean that there's, 
there's always of course a 

235
00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,480
physical component as well, but 
I think this is mostly a mental 

236
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,880
thing and it's how you're able 
to it's, it's, yeah, how you're 

237
00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,040
able to focus on something else 
than the pain. 

238
00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,800
The that that has to do with 
mental tools that we discussed 

239
00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,800
last time. 
Also things like self talk, 

240
00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:10,960
meditation, relaxation 
exercises, visualization, those 

241
00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:15,440
kind of things help you to focus
on what you're actually doing 

242
00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,400
instead of, you know, being 
focused on the pain. 

243
00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:25,760
But secondly, you're, yeah, the 
more you go through that pain, 

244
00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:27,040
the more you're able to handle 
it. 

245
00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:31,760
And, and, and yeah, I always 
think that when you're training,

246
00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:36,200
often you kind of remove that 
emotional component of pain. 

247
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:41,000
So what I see with people who 
are new to running, when they 

248
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,320
start running and it gets hard, 
they kind of get emotional about

249
00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:45,840
it. 
It's like, oh, it's they, they, 

250
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,240
they tell me it's so tough, it's
so painful. 

251
00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:52,160
And it's like they're getting, 
of course, negative thoughts in 

252
00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,040
their mind, you know, about, 
yeah, I want to quit. 

253
00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:59,440
I can't handle this any longer. 
And the more runners are used to

254
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,640
do to, to, to do hard workouts 
and to do hard stuff and to go 

255
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:09,080
through the pain, the more 
they're able to kind of remove 

256
00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,240
that emotional component from 
it. 

257
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,280
So they feel the pain and 
they're like, yeah, that's part 

258
00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:15,480
of the deal. 
That's what I'm doing. 

259
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,040
That's what that's my job. 
You know, that's what OK, even 

260
00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,240
if it's not a job that makes 
money, but that's, that's what 

261
00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:23,360
you chose to do. 
So they they go through it at 

262
00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:28,120
least to a certain extent. 
And yeah, another research that 

263
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,520
is that I found quite 
interesting is with swimmers 

264
00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,920
where you have three groups of 
swimmers. 

265
00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:39,480
The first group is basically 
amateur swimmers who just like, 

266
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,440
or recreational swimmers. 
The second group was club level 

267
00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:45,080
swimmers. 
So they are like serious 

268
00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:49,320
swimmers, but at the level like 
maybe they're the top of their 

269
00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:51,640
own club. 
And then the third group was 

270
00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:55,040
elite swimmers, national level 
swimmers. 

271
00:15:55,040 --> 00:16:00,200
So they let them do a test like 
where they had to. 

272
00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,200
They, I think they've wrapped a 
band around their arm and they 

273
00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:08,160
had to squeeze their hand into a
fist and press really hard, 

274
00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,600
which at some point would get 
quite painful, right? 

275
00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:15,000
And then they would test like 
how long they could continue and

276
00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:22,280
they would score basically their
pain tolerance based on how long

277
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,160
they were able to handle this 
test. 

278
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,840
And the first thing that was 
quite interesting was that the 

279
00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,800
better the swimmer, the higher 
the pain tolerance. 

280
00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,160
And there was a very big 
difference, like the club 

281
00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:40,200
swimmers would score maybe 80, 
the amateurs would score 40 or 

282
00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:44,960
50, and the elites would score 
like 150 or 170, right? 

283
00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,200
So was like a much, much higher 
score. 

284
00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:51,160
So the elites, the elites 
swimmers, sorry, they, they 

285
00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,800
scored like almost double of 
what the club level swimmers who

286
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:56,600
do. 
Whereas the club level swimmers 

287
00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,840
are also seriously training. 
They were still training hard, 

288
00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:01,640
right? 
Because they were like the best 

289
00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,880
in their club. 
And then when they asked those 

290
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,280
swimmers, how would you compare 
the pain that you felt during 

291
00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:13,920
the test with the pain during a 
competition, the club swimmers 

292
00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,760
would say, yeah, the the pain 
that I felt during the test was 

293
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,200
was it was so painful. 
It was harder than what I've 

294
00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:24,440
ever experienced in a race. 
Whereas the elite level swimmer 

295
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:28,880
said it was quite painful. 
But in races, I feel even higher

296
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,440
than this. 
So even though they scored like 

297
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,240
almost double of the club 
swimmers, they still said the 

298
00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,120
pain that they would feel in 
competition is, you know, 

299
00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:39,840
higher. 
It's more painful than this 

300
00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,760
test, right? 
So that shows you how much more 

301
00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:48,320
they're able to to to hurt 
themselves basically. 

302
00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:52,880
And so then the first thing you 
say is like, OK, so this is also

303
00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,560
a genetic thing, maybe because 
the club swimmers are training 

304
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,000
hard. 
The elite swimmers are obviously

305
00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,080
training a little bit harder, 
but they're all, you know, going

306
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,800
to the pool almost every day and
they're they're doing hard 

307
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,680
sessions. 
But then when they compare the 

308
00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,920
elite swimmers throughout the 
the season, they saw that when 

309
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:14,400
they were offseason they would 
score a lot lower, like 80. 

310
00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,440
And then when they were, you 
know, starting to build up, they

311
00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:20,320
would score 1/10, 1:20. 
And then when they were in 

312
00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:24,160
really hard training and having 
competitions, they would score 

313
00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,880
like 15170. 
So you could see their their 

314
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:32,240
pain tolerance like fluctuate 
throughout the year almost as a 

315
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,800
function of how hard the 
training was that they were. 

316
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:41,480
Doing that's quite impressive 
and I wonder how much all of 

317
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:46,720
this has to do with an elite's 
mindset and willingness to even 

318
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,480
go to that place because I read 
somewhere or heard somewhere 

319
00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:56,880
that embracing the pain is 
something that elites expect as 

320
00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:02,040
they go there. 
Oh, yes, yes, yes, definitely. 

321
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,280
It's yeah. 
It's something that people talk 

322
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,400
about and they prepare for. 
Yes, yes, definitely. 

323
00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:11,040
Yeah. 
I was an elite runner myself, so

324
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,400
I yeah. 
And, and you're with elite, you 

325
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:17,160
know, Kenyans and, and Americans
and, you know, people that you 

326
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,000
meet during races. 
And it's definitely one of the 

327
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,400
subjects that people say that 
they they, they prepare 

328
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:24,720
themselves mentally for the 
pain. 

329
00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:30,000
And, and, you know, sometimes 
someone says, like today I feel 

330
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,880
like I'm ready to die. 
And it sounds funny, you know, 

331
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:37,360
like, seriously. 
But what we mean as runners is 

332
00:19:37,360 --> 00:19:40,480
like, you just feel mentally so 
strong sometimes that you feel 

333
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,680
like nothing can hurt me. 
Like I can push through that 

334
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,800
pain no matter how hard it is. 
And yeah, I've had those days 

335
00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,440
myself. 
I remember when I ran my one of 

336
00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:53,200
my quickest half marathon times,
It was a race in the Netherlands

337
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,120
where it was snowy and, like, 
there was lots of snow on the 

338
00:19:56,120 --> 00:19:58,840
roads. 
And I was like, not perfect 

339
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,120
conditions at all, but I just 
woke up the day and I felt like 

340
00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:05,320
I'm totally ready to die. 
And then, yeah, I had, you know,

341
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:06,760
one of the best races of my 
life. 

342
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:11,080
And people talk about that. 
And it's it's something they 

343
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:15,280
prepare for also mentally like, 
so another thing that those 

344
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,000
swimmers were saying also, like 
they were training harder, 

345
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,120
training harder during, of 
course, peak season when they 

346
00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:23,760
were, you know, in the last 
phase of getting ready for the 

347
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,160
big competitions, the big 
swimming competitions. 

348
00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:28,880
But they were also doing more 
mental training. 

349
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,280
So like offseason, they would 
just do some training, physical 

350
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,240
training and that's it. 
But then as soon as the races 

351
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,120
started to approach, they 
started to doing more 

352
00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:41,160
facialisation exercises, more 
relaxation exercises. 

353
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,600
The average elite athlete spends
around 1 1/2 to two hours a week

354
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:51,040
doing mental training, right? 
That's also some other research 

355
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,120
that shows that when they 
interviewed about 250 elite 

356
00:20:55,120 --> 00:21:00,160
athletes from different sports. 
So and and yeah, that's maybe 1 

357
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,720
1/2 to two hours on average per 
week, but that would be more in 

358
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:05,880
the weeks approaching 
competitions. 

359
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:08,120
Wow. 
Yeah. 

360
00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:09,600
So. 
So that's crazy. 

361
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,960
But to go back to what you were 
saying about this, when you were

362
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:19,320
an elite runner and you would 
feel the pain, did you obviously

363
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,360
feel the pain, but were you also
happy that you were in that pain

364
00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:23,960
cave? 
Did you feel like, OK, now I 

365
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:28,920
know I'm there, or because for 
us average runners, when we get 

366
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,920
to that painful place, it's 
almost like fear, right, 'cause 

367
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,640
you're like, oh, I don't know if
I can handle this. 

368
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:39,160
I don't know if I can tolerate 
this for long enough. 

369
00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:42,280
Maybe I should just back up so I
can even just finish the race. 

370
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:46,080
I don't want to die out there. 
So tell me what was going on in 

371
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,760
your mind. 
Yeah, and I totally understand 

372
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,560
amateur runners as well. 
I'm an amateur runner myself 

373
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,720
now, right? 
And I've been doing mostly easy 

374
00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,600
runs for the last maybe 1 1/2 
year because I had, as soon as I

375
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:02,440
started training harder, I 
caught a calf issue. 

376
00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:05,840
But yeah, I've been doing 
consistent strength training 

377
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,920
since September and, and that 
helped me to start doing 

378
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,920
workouts again. 
So I think from this, between 

379
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,760
December, half of December and 
now, so in, let's say in the 

380
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,800
last two months, I've been doing
four or five hard workouts, not 

381
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,560
that much, but still. 
And I and I feel exactly what 

382
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,360
amateur runners feel, you know, 
because I do my first workout 

383
00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:28,840
and it gets hard and I'm like, 
oh man, this is tough. 

384
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,000
I didn't feel this for 1 1/2 
year, right? 

385
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,640
And actually today, just this 
morning, I went out with a group

386
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:41,200
of 6 canyons, 4 ladies and two 
male Pacers And, and I, we went 

387
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:45,120
on, was it the 12 K? 
So it's about eight mile tempo 

388
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:49,040
run and about halfway I was 
actually thinking, I don't know 

389
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:50,680
if I can finish this. 
It was hot. 

390
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,080
It was like 11:00 and the sun 
was burning on my face. 

391
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,480
And I was like, maybe I should 
back it off a bit because it's 

392
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,720
getting really tough. 
And then immediately something 

393
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,280
clicked in my mind. 
I was like, no, this is because 

394
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,240
I'm not used to the pain, right?
So like I've not been doing hard

395
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,920
workouts for 1 1/2 years now. 
I've reached the point that it's

396
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,760
getting hard for me, but it it 
shouldn't be hard, but it's hard

397
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,280
because it's hard in my mind, 
right? 

398
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:17,200
So I was just determined to, to 
let that session help me get 

399
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,600
mentally stronger and it will 
only help me that much if I 

400
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,320
don't back off and kind of give 
in to that feeling, right? 

401
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:27,040
So I was like, just focus on the
workout, right? 

402
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,320
And, and it's a little bit true 
what you said that you're kind 

403
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,280
of happy to be in that pain 
cave, but it's, it's slightly 

404
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,960
different because you actually 
try to, not to focus on the 

405
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,680
pain. 
You try to focus on, you know, 

406
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:45,160
you're breathing or just stay 
behind this person, focus on, 

407
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:51,760
you know, pushing hard, let your
legs hit the ground. 

408
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:57,120
Or you can have some thoughts 
that can, how do you say, 

409
00:23:57,120 --> 00:23:58,920
distract you from the pain, 
Right. 

410
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,320
So some people like to listen to
music because it distracts them.

411
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:04,680
Typically elite runners don't do
that. 

412
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,000
Mostly elite runners are what 
you call on task. 

413
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,720
So instead of going off task, 
which is like, so there's two 

414
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:14,880
ways of kind of getting rid of 
that pain, right? 

415
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:20,640
So one way is being off task is 
like listen to a podcast or you 

416
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,720
know, listen to music, something
that distracts you. 

417
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,240
Typically what elite runners do,
they are on task. 

418
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,920
So they focus so much on just 
their job, basically what 

419
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,080
they're doing on that moment. 
So they try as much as they can 

420
00:24:34,360 --> 00:24:39,040
to focus their attention on the 
now, right here, right now and 

421
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:43,560
not listen to that pain, right? 
So, yeah, so that's what I did 

422
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,200
today also. 
And in the end it worked. 

423
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,280
And I finished with like my 
fastest kilometer that I've run 

424
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,840
in the last two years. 
So I was like, OK, that was kind

425
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,400
of a small victory over myself. 
And I know that this experience 

426
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,400
and pushing through this pain 
helps me so that the next 

427
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,080
session I do it won't feel that 
painful, right? 

428
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:05,920
So yeah, it's rather than being 
really happy you're in that pain

429
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:11,240
cave, you you try to be there in
that pain cave as long as you 

430
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,880
can, but without focusing on the
pain. 

431
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,120
That's super interesting and 
yeah, Congrats on your your 

432
00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:20,440
fastest kilometer. 
I'm sure it's way off your PR 

433
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,920
but but with what you said with 
the off task on task, I find 

434
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,360
that very interesting. 
So what in your opinion should 

435
00:25:28,360 --> 00:25:32,720
an amateur runner do? 
Obviously we run for pleasure 

436
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,480
and you know, it is nice to have
your hype songs during your 

437
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,880
marathon, but if we are trying 
to get faster, do you think it 

438
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,960
would make more sense to get rid
of the headphones and try to be 

439
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,400
more on task? 
And then with that, if you do 

440
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,400
that, you know the the power of 
music and having the 80 beats 

441
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,960
per minutes or 90 beat per 
minutes that I feel like 

442
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,640
influences my cadence a lot. 
What? 

443
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,920
What do you have? 
Right, right. 

444
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,360
So that's a very good question 
actually Latin because I was of 

445
00:26:05,360 --> 00:26:08,760
the assumption when I finished 
my, my own running career and I 

446
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,960
started coaching, I was kind of 
of the assumption that everyone 

447
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,520
should be on task because this 
is what I had learned from a 

448
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,840
sports psychologist. 
And that's what I do, what I had

449
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,840
been doing during my career. 
And it worked like successfully 

450
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,360
for me in a way that I always 
had good races. 

451
00:26:25,360 --> 00:26:29,280
I mean, I wasn't the best runner
out there, but I was always able

452
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,600
to give so much more in a race 
than I was in training that it, 

453
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,240
it really worked for me. 
So it was kind of I made a 

454
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,920
mistake to assume that everyone 
would do the same, like everyone

455
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,320
should try to be on task during 
a race. 

456
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,440
But during my coaching career, I
realized that it doesn't work 

457
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,440
for everyone. 
And for lots of amateur runners,

458
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,280
it actually works better to be 
off task. 

459
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,840
So off task meaning, like for 
some people, it does just works 

460
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,960
really well to have music to 
listen to and they have that 

461
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,080
beat in their head and, and even
if they don't listen to music, 

462
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:06,880
but they just have a song in 
their head, right. 

463
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:08,880
So sometimes you have those 
songs that stick in your eye and

464
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:13,120
you just, you know, keep playing
that song in your own head. 

465
00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:18,160
So that can also work. 
Some people, you know, look at 

466
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,480
the birds and the audience and 
you know, think about home or 

467
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,280
something and that works for 
them. 

468
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,280
So who am I to say like, no, you
shouldn't know that you have to 

469
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,920
be on task. 
I think being on task has huge 

470
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:36,480
potential and if you wanted to 
be on task, I would say start 

471
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:41,240
with positive self talk. 
So positive self talk is is 

472
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,120
slightly different from just 
talking to yourself during a 

473
00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:48,400
race or doing a hard workout. 
It's when you have really 

474
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,440
prepared yourself to say certain
words or phrases. 

475
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:56,920
So it turns out like 95% of the 
runners talk to themselves 

476
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,480
during a race because they've 
interviewed runners and they 

477
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:01,680
asked them, do you talk to 
yourself? 

478
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:03,600
And that's what 95% of the 
runner says. 

479
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,280
But for the majority of them, 
it's not in a controlled way. 

480
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:09,800
So and then it doesn't really 
help you. 

481
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,280
It only helps you when you do it
in a controlled way. 

482
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,080
So for example, you might say, 
OK, at the beginning of the 

483
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:19,360
race, I will tell myself this is
your day, you can do it. 

484
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,560
You are strong. 
You know, a few of those kind of

485
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:27,200
words and, and that can help you
to be on task and to avoid 

486
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,560
thinking about the pain. 
Maybe halfway the race, you 

487
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,560
might tell yourself now it's 
getting tough, but you are 

488
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,480
tougher. 
I'm just making up some words, 

489
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,040
right? 
So whatever you say can work. 

490
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,120
You, you have to try it out for 
yourself. 

491
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,000
And at the end of the race, you 
might say, get ready for the 

492
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,320
launch, you know, get ready to 
accelerate. 

493
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:52,240
Or this is the this is the 
moment of truth or now it's time

494
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,800
to push hard, right? 
So you have certain words or 

495
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,120
phrases for two or three or four
different parts of the race. 

496
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,920
And you tell that to yourself. 
And what that actually, what 

497
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,920
most runners that do that, what 
they say is that it kind of 

498
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:11,080
chases away the negative 
thoughts and it chases away that

499
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,440
fear of pain, right? 
Because you have very 

500
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,400
experienced runners will feel 
like, OK, there's not so much I 

501
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,520
can improve anymore. 
But then they start doing the 

502
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:23,880
South talk and they still have a
jump in their performance 

503
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,040
because of that. 
It's quite interesting how it 

504
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,920
can work for people. 
And yeah, I think like one of 

505
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,080
the things is that you can't 
really have two thoughts in your

506
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,440
head, right? 
So if, if I, if that's why they 

507
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,720
always say like if you jump 
over, you know, a river or how 

508
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,680
do you call it the pond? 
You know, you, you, you 

509
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,640
shouldn't tell yourself don't 
fall in the water because if 

510
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,280
you, if you tell yourself, don't
fall inside, what are you 

511
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,760
thinking about? 
You think about falling inside, 

512
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,080
right? 
So you should never think 

513
00:29:55,080 --> 00:30:00,800
something negative or something 
like don't do this because your,

514
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,480
your brain doesn't understand. 
Don't do this, right? 

515
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,920
Don't think of a pink elephant. 
Of course you think about the 

516
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:10,160
pink elephant. 
So you, you tell yourself what 

517
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,120
you do want to think about, 
right? 

518
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,040
So you can tell yourself, you 
know, this is your day or you 

519
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:17,960
can tell yourself, relax your 
shoulders. 

520
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,840
So those are all cues for 
yourself to what you can focus 

521
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,120
on. 
And then those negative thoughts

522
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,240
that you might have when the 
pain comes are much less likely 

523
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,480
to kind of come in and control 
you. 

524
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,880
And if they do come in, you just
replace them with one of your 

525
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,120
phrases. 
This is great. 

526
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:40,920
That's another great tip. 
You know, I feel like every time

527
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,240
I talk to you, there is some 
tips that just come out and then

528
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,560
I try to write them down and I'm
really glad. 

529
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,240
Thank you for sharing that all 
with me and hopefully we can 

530
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,440
have you back on again sometime 
soon. 

531
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,880
Will we talk about mental state 
and subliminal cues and all that

532
00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:59,840
because there's so much with 
this whole mindset. 

533
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,760
So thank you, Hugo. 
Yeah, you're welcome. 

534
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,240
It's also interesting for me to 
and I hope you can start to 

535
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,360
practice with it. 
And the listeners also. 

536
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:13,840
And I especially want to say 
don't get demotivated when it 

537
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,440
doesn't work immediately because
it's very common that you still 

538
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,440
have like, you know, negative 
thoughts. 

539
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,840
Like you're running and you feel
the pain and you're like, Oh my 

540
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:23,600
God, it's so hard. 
I should slow down. 

541
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,800
Well, you actually feel like you
should be able to handle it, 

542
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,840
right? 
So you don't get demotivated, 

543
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,800
just continue and just just say,
OK, there's that negative 

544
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,200
thought. 
It's normal to have that coming 

545
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,760
in, let's try to replace it with
something positive, right? 

546
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,320
So you just have to kind of also
persevere with that. 

547
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,560
And it's the same for all the 
other tools. 

548
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:53,560
There's no magic in there that 
you try it once or twice and you

549
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,960
you run a huge personal best. 
It's something you have to 

550
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:58,800
train. 
You have to train your brain the

551
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,880
same way you train your body. 
Yeah, yeah. 

552
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,400
And you've inspired me to maybe 
take the headphones off for just

553
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,560
a few runs and just see what 
goes on in there. 

554
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:10,080
So thank you. 
Yeah. 

555
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,720
Yeah, Yeah, yeah, that's, that 
would be good, actually. 

556
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:18,640
Yeah. 
Thank you, Hugo, so much for 

557
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,880
coming on and telling us 
everything that we learned 

558
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,960
today. 
Again, Ryan, super interesting, 

559
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,120
right? 
Yeah, I love those scientific 

560
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,520
based podcasts. 
Yes, and I love hearing about 

561
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,480
the studies too because they 
bring everything so much to 

562
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:36,920
life. 
So I'm really grateful for that.

563
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,040
So again, thank you so much. 
Everything will be LinkedIn, our

564
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,640
show notes, and that's it for 
today. 

565
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,400
That's all we have. 
In our next episode, we're going

566
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,520
to have a recap of the LA 
Marathon that took place on 

567
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:55,040
March 16th, 2025. 
One of my favorite races, so 

568
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,440
stay tuned for that and 
hopefully you will also already 

569
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,000
have a YouTube video recapping 
all of that. 

570
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,480
Those are your favorite ones. 
Yes, I love Expos and races and 

571
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,200
all that stuff and I fell in 
love with vlogging while in 

572
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,240
Kenya. 
As you know, if you watched my 

573
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,640
videos, I know Ryan, you are a 
couple of videos behind still 

574
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,960
for Kenya, but hopefully you're 
watching all the other videos on

575
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,600
our shoe reviews etcetera. 
I mean, I know you are because 

576
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,600
you're helping me produce them. 
Of course. 

577
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:25,680
All right, so again, stay tuned 
for next week's episode. 

578
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:27,680
And with that. 
Have a good week of running. 

579
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,080
Thanks for tuning in. 
For more information and 

580
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,040
marathon running news, please 
head to 

581
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:42,360
www.marathonrunningpodcast.com 
and we'll be back next week.