1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,600 This episode has been sponsored by a generation. 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:05,640 You can more about our sponsor later on in the show. 3 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:09,640 You're listening to episode 197 of the Marathon Running Podcast. 4 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,640 In this episode, we're going to talk about VO2, Max and the 5 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:22,680 heart rate zones. This is the Marathon Running 6 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:25,240 podcast by Letty and Ryan from We Got The Runs. 7 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:28,560 Join us in our running community for weekly content that is 8 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,360 motivational, educational, and inspirational, and that the 9 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,200 Marathon Running Podcast take you from the starting line to 10 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:42,480 the finish line and beyond. Hey runners, and welcome to 11 00:00:42,480 --> 00:00:45,480 episode 197. I'm your host, Letty. 12 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:47,840 And I'm Ryan. And we are your weekly host of 13 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:51,520 this marathon running podcast. Welcome if you're new and a 14 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,760 first time listener, and welcome back if you've listened to us 15 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:56,880 before. Thank you for tuning back in. 16 00:00:57,760 --> 00:00:59,560 So letty, you sound a little stuffy. 17 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,000 Do I? I think you do, actually. 18 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:04,879 I'm not just saying that. So I wonder if any of the 19 00:01:04,879 --> 00:01:07,320 listeners noticed. But so you've been sick. 20 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,040 I have been sick. I got hit by our kids bug this 21 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,760 Saturday. Well, to remind people, our kids 22 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,560 are five and seven, so they're early elementary kids, and so 23 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,040 they basically get sick every few weeks while they're in 24 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:22,000 school. It seems every once in a while 25 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,320 we'll catch it too. Yeah, but we've dodged it. 26 00:01:24,320 --> 00:01:26,000 I've, I've kind of taken note of it. 27 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,120 We haven't gotten sick since last September. 28 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:30,560 It has been a while. It has been a while and I was 29 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,800 hoping that I would dodge it just for a couple more weeks, 30 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,280 but it didn't happen. But you've got Tokyo coming up 31 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:37,600 in a week. Ish. 32 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:42,000 Yes, that's why this sickness is not really playing in very well 33 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,480 into our timeline. It was a forced taper, right? 34 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:49,440 I had one more 20 mile or yesterday and I couldn't even 35 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:51,520 walk a quarter mile. I was so dizzy. 36 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:53,520 So, you know, but what do they say? 37 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,280 The haze in the barn. The hay is in the barn. 38 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,160 Yeah, like you've already collected it. 39 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,760 It's ready, it's dried and it's ready to be eaten. 40 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,080 Oh, is that like a German saying? 41 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:04,520 I don't know. I thought it was English. 42 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,120 It might be, I I don't know it, but it kind of. 43 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,240 I mean, some of those German sayings are kind of fun because 44 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,120 they actually make sense, even though it's never said here. 45 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,080 So I can be, I can look at it or think about it and be like, oh, 46 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,320 I guess that does make sense. Yeah. 47 00:02:18,640 --> 00:02:20,720 So today's guest is Martin Bailey. 48 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:22,880 He's a friend of ours, He's Canadian. 49 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:27,080 Him and his wife Isabel actually spend winters down in Florida 50 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,440 and the rest of their time they spend in Canada. 51 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:36,400 So I guess he's an engineer by training and Matt Lonnie and 52 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:37,880 Matt Letty. Your wife. 53 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,560 My wife through local run groups. 54 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,200 So what made you pick him to talk on this topic? 55 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:48,680 I picked him because he's a very avid learner, kind of like you. 56 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:53,000 He's got the engineer's brain and he dives deeply into these 57 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,680 scientific topics behind running to the point that he knows way 58 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,640 more than a lot of running coaches that we encounter 59 00:03:00,640 --> 00:03:02,800 nowadays. So I've had some really 60 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,280 fascinating conversations with him about VO2, Max and heart 61 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,680 rate and everything else in between in the past. 62 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:11,600 And I've tried to get him on the podcast for a long time. 63 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,680 He always said, well, you know, I don't really have the 64 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:16,640 background for it. He's very humble. 65 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:21,920 And then finally, when he ran the Chicago Marathon last year 66 00:03:21,920 --> 00:03:28,280 at a blazing pace of 235, I knocked on his door again and I 67 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:30,880 said, Martin, I think it's time that you come on the podcast and 68 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:32,920 he finally felt like he had enough credibility. 69 00:03:32,920 --> 00:03:37,200 I think you know, because he's, he's been coached, but he also 70 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:39,960 analyzes everything. He studied Kiptogi's training 71 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,960 and he dwelved into it. And I think he's literally more 72 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:48,440 savvy than most on this topic. Yeah, I think Martin can back up 73 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,680 some of it just based on how well he's done running recently 74 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,760 and speaking from I did an engineering also as 75 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:57,920 undergraduate. I think speaking from an 76 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,560 engineer standpoint, you do like to analyze things a lot. 77 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,560 And you know, if he was just someone that analyzed things but 78 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:06,040 couldn't back it up, that's one thing. 79 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:10,160 But he seems to be very successful in his running, and 80 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,880 he's not a young spring chicken out of college. 81 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,440 He's actually a little bit older like we are. 82 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:18,600 Yeah, he's like 69. Not 60. 83 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,240 Sorry, Martin 39. He's still younger than us, but 84 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:23,800 but he's not, You know what I mean? 85 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:25,240 He's not just like a high schooler. 86 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:27,800 That's just naturally talented, necessarily. 87 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,040 I mean, he probably has some natural talent too, but he also, 88 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,040 you know, I'm sure, is dedicated to his training and learning 89 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:35,880 about how to get better and it seems to be paying off. 90 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:40,120 Yes and and you know just being able to just read the data and 91 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:41,560 you know little things that he tells you. 92 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,440 You know when you'd go take your view to Max test and also grab 93 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:47,840 all this other data because it'll help you further define 94 00:04:47,840 --> 00:04:50,960 your heart rates and all that little stuff that is really hard 95 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,640 to find when browsing channels or even talking to other run 96 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:55,960 coaches. This is really impressive. 97 00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:00,080 Yeah, I think hopefully people will find his like information 98 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,320 he's gathered and been useful for himself. 99 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:04,040 Useful. Yes, exactly. 100 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:05,640 So you want to get into it? Yes, right. 101 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:07,440 Let's do it without any further ado. 102 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,120 We're not going to play our conversation with Martin Bailey. 103 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:16,280 All right, so I'm here with Martin, AKA VO2 Martin on 104 00:05:16,280 --> 00:05:18,200 Instagram. Martin is my personal friend. 105 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:20,120 And Martin, welcome to our podcast. 106 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:22,320 Thank you, lady. It's a pleasure to be here with 107 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:23,720 you today. Perfect. 108 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:25,200 Yes. And I've been trying to get you 109 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,720 on before, and our listeners will learn about how much you 110 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,440 know when it comes to these complicated questions, you're 111 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,360 going to dumb them down for us. So let's get started, though, 112 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,720 with a brief little intro about who you are, what you do, and 113 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,120 then we'll also kind of get into how you've gotten so fast. 114 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:42,280 All right. Thanks, lady. 115 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:44,120 Well, I have to be humble about this. 116 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,480 I didn't want to come on the interview because I don't have a 117 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,320 PhD and anything and I thought I didn't know because I'm learning 118 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,760 so much so. But I feel that's that's part of 119 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,280 the equation of, you know, being a good writer is you have to 120 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,240 keep an open mind and be willing to learn, be willing to be 121 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,000 proven wrong. And that I've been doing that 122 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:07,000 for a good 2-3 years and hopefully I have some some 123 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:08,800 insights that I can share today with you. 124 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:11,680 So yeah, a little bit about myself. 125 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:16,360 I'm actually a software engineer and I started running with a lot 126 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:20,640 of passion during the pandemic. I joined the running club and 127 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,880 most people in my club are running marathons, which really 128 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,080 scared me. But then I decided to give the 129 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,080 half marathon a try and I loved it. 130 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,440 And then built up to the marathon and I'm, I'm really, 131 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,760 I'm, I'm hooked now. Yes, you are hooked. 132 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,480 And let's talk about your running times, because you've 133 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,240 not been running marathons for that long. 134 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,120 But tell us about your PR. Well, tell us about your first 135 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,240 marathon and your current PR. Sure. 136 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:52,640 Well, it all started a little over a year ago when I ran my 137 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,200 first marathon. I have to say that I had 138 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:59,880 prepared for it for at least two years of serious structured 139 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:04,480 training with a group. So I I knew what I was getting 140 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,720 into. I had to run a 127 and then at 141 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:13,000 124 half marathon so I knew could do somewhere around 3 142 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:18,280 hours and I ended up running 258 on the on the hilly course. 143 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:22,920 I was pretty happy about that and motivated me, motivated me 144 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,880 to keep training harder for the next one which was the first one 145 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:32,480 was Quebec City and then I ran the Ottawa Marathon about six 146 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:36,800 months later and sadly I was, I was a little injured. 147 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:41,240 So I had to hold back, but still did a pretty good time in 250 148 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,000 and I probably had it, yeah, I guess at 2:45 in me that day, 149 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,800 but but yeah, so 250. I was pretty happy with that and 150 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:54,160 I thought, OK, next time I'll sign up for Chicago and I'll try 151 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:59,320 to beat that. I was hoping to do two 45240 and 152 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,680 as you know, I know we met, we met in Chicago. 153 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,840 The weather was fantastic. It was just such good 154 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:08,560 conditions. World record was broken that 155 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:10,800 day. It was so motivating and I just 156 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:16,280 pushed harder and ran at 235 and 41 because I was, I was a little 157 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,040 surprised myself. But you know, that day was 158 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:25,760 pretty exciting. So 3 hours to 2:35, that's a big 159 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,160 jump because I was in Chicago too, and I had the same weather 160 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,680 you had and I didn't have this massive jump. 161 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,640 And obviously massive jumps are all relative. 162 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,520 I feel like the closer we get to our fullest potential, the 163 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,559 smaller the hops can be. But that's a big jump. 164 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:46,120 So I feel like it's always the engineering brain, people that 165 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,400 do well because you analyze stuff. 166 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,000 So tell us the secret. How did you get so fast? 167 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:55,160 Was it reading about kibtogi 'cause I know you studied his 168 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,680 training or what was it that you did? 169 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,560 Oh, absolutely. I mean, well, I have to say the 170 00:09:01,560 --> 00:09:03,840 first thing is getting the foundation right. 171 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:08,360 So for me, joining a running club Lafley in Quebec City was 172 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:12,720 very important. Having the support of other 173 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,840 runners, learning from their experience, having a great 174 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:19,720 coach, not not just for the you know what workouts to do but 175 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:24,160 just in the the mental aspect of running, how to get ready, have 176 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:28,160 a good strategy and the motivation around it. 177 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,160 So the structured workouts were key. 178 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:34,240 Had a regular schedule as much as possible for that time 179 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:40,160 leading up to Chicago and and then obviously as you pointed 180 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,760 out being an engineer you're always trying to understand what 181 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:45,760 how things work and that's that's what I do. 182 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:50,240 I'm a curious person. So I get down to the details of 183 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,760 what happens inside my buddy, why I do a certain workout and I 184 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:56,040 think that's helped me quite a bit. 185 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:02,680 So I'm trying to train as smart as I can spend time on 186 00:10:02,680 --> 00:10:05,360 weaknesses. I feel like that's the that's 187 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,080 the main thing really is trying to figure out what your 188 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:10,960 bottlenecks are if you want to improve. 189 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:15,160 And and yeah, that's that's what I've been doing. 190 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:20,120 I I did study what Kipchogi did and you know, first thing that I 191 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,000 learned is that no human is limited. 192 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:28,880 But yeah, now kidding aside, I feel like Ketchugi surprisingly 193 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,280 runs really slow and he's easy, easy days. 194 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,040 And that's been very inspiring to me. 195 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,560 I thought, oh, if this guy can run so slow, what am I doing 196 00:10:38,560 --> 00:10:41,000 running faster than he does on easy days. 197 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:46,920 So that's that's how I got interested in in the whole, you 198 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:52,000 know, I guess split between hard workouts and recovery days, and 199 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,680 I started running way slower than I used to. 200 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:00,080 Yes. And a lot of that you talk to us 201 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,880 about in your in your current local running club and you talk 202 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:07,560 about you explain it using different zones and and heart 203 00:11:07,560 --> 00:11:09,200 rates. Maybe you can talk to us a 204 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,800 little bit about how those zones work. 205 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,120 And then most importantly, you know, we all get garments and 206 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,600 they have preset heart rate zones. 207 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:23,720 How are they right or not right? Right. 208 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,040 Well the zones are very important, but they have to mean 209 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:33,840 something to you and and I I see a lot of runners just ignore 210 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,000 them. Maybe the first reason is that 211 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,760 the zones are based on heart rate and you have to trust your 212 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,320 heart rate data. So you know, First things first, 213 00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:47,520 a lot of people wear their watch to be comfortable, not snug. 214 00:11:47,560 --> 00:11:50,760 And then what happens is usually your heart rate is not in the 215 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,080 right place. There's it's something called 216 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,080 cadence lock that usually happens if your watch is not 217 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:00,840 really tight, which which basically your your your watch 218 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,240 is showing you your cadence instead instead of your heart 219 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:06,200 rate because it keeps moving around. 220 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,280 And so you have to make that reliable, you know, always quash 221 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,240 it and especially if there's sweat, sunscreen or if you have 222 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:14,800 cold hands, it doesn't work well. 223 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,560 So I I actually tend to do a lot of my runs with a heart rate 224 00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:23,080 strap this way. I can trust that data actually 225 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,680 started racing with a chest, you know, chest strap. 226 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,240 So you get to get used to that. But this is very helpful. 227 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:35,360 The reason it is, is when you look at heart rate zones, you're 228 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:38,400 actually looking at what's what happens inside your body and 229 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:42,440 what fuel you draw from. So I know you just did a an 230 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:44,960 episode on that which is really helpful. 231 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:50,280 I invite people to listen to it. I just did it and and that's 232 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:54,160 that's very helpful to know what fuel you're using because during 233 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:59,840 a race you can optimize you know your I guess your fuel economy 234 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:04,040 use draw from the right pool of fuel and drink training you can 235 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:08,360 work on the one that's the biggest bottleneck for you that 236 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:15,280 makes sense so so before we get into the zones and and you asked 237 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:19,240 me about the garment zones but I think we should cover what the 238 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,880 zones actually represent because there's so many systems 239 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:26,920 sometimes you hear about 3 zone system and sometimes you hear 240 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,440 about 5 zones or more zones. I've seen up to seven zones but 241 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,120 for most marathon runners 5 zones is is more than enough to 242 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:40,480 describe what happens inside your body and and really it's 243 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:48,400 representation of of shifting from low and aerobic exercise 244 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:53,240 where you use predominant in fat is fat oxidation and that that's 245 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:57,520 basically fuel that you have an unlimited supply of for all 246 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,880 intensive purposes. Unless you run like multi day 247 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,520 marathon, ultra marathons, you don't run that effect especially 248 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:09,760 in the marathon And and then as you progress to maybe zone 3, 249 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:15,600 Zone 4, you start using way more carbs or you know muscle 250 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,720 glycogen or blood glucose, that sort of that sort of stuff. 251 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,840 And that's a finite amount of fuel. 252 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,800 So if your body's really good at using that fuel, it's going to 253 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,600 use more of it. And during the race you're going 254 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,560 to run out. Or what happens is you're going 255 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:37,480 to Max out the potential power or energy that you can produce 256 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:42,000 from that fuel, say carbs, and that's as fast as you can go. 257 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:46,240 So even if you run only a 5K and you don't have to worry about 258 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:50,120 running out of fuel like you do in a marathon, you might be 259 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,520 maxing out how much power you can produce because you don't 260 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:58,240 get the power from fat as well. And so that's, that's part of 261 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:02,480 the training. For most people, creating energy 262 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:07,240 from fat is a bottleneck. I mean, we can get into more 263 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:12,320 details, if if you want, about why that is, but that's that's 264 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,920 what I realized. That was my bottleneck and 265 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:16,160 that's what I've been working on. 266 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:20,360 I think that explains why I made you know such fast progress. 267 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:25,400 Yeah, so since that is, you know, what your drawback was and 268 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,400 now you're better at it, let's hop into that topic of, you 269 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,040 know, creating more energy from fat. 270 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,560 Sure. Well, I have to say, like 271 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,280 everybody's different. You know, we have different 272 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,480 backgrounds before running. Sometimes we've done different 273 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,160 sports. And for me, that was that I 274 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:45,360 played soccer and I played hockey. 275 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,160 Not at a high level, but that was the kind of exercise that I 276 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,320 did. Both sports really rely on, you 277 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:56,080 know, fast twitch muscle fibers, sprinting to the ball or, you 278 00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:00,480 know, just sprinting to score and then you play for about 45 279 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,120 seconds and then sit on the bench. 280 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:06,400 It's a really different form of exercise than it is running a 281 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:10,120 marathon, obviously. So I think I was pretty good at 282 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,080 sprinting. I had power, but no endurance 283 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,440 really. And so I found early on that, 284 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:20,120 you know, I had to work on that. I didn't do any testing back in 285 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,160 the day, but I probably didn't produce much power from Fat. 286 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:28,600 And when I realized that that Ketchogi does a lot of these, 287 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:35,120 his easy runs really slow, like about for him, a 9 minute mile 288 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,000 or 10 minute mile is really slow. 289 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,640 So basically he's walking. His heart breaks probably 100 or 290 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,640 120, I don't know, but he's just chilling. 291 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:49,200 And so I started doing that. It was pretty slow for me, so I 292 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:53,960 did run as slow as possible for over six months. 293 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:59,320 I think that's what I spend most of my time doing 2-3 years ago. 294 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:06,280 9 minute miles, 10 minute miles. Just, you know, no, no effort. 295 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,640 Just trying to work on two things. 296 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:13,760 Basically having my body, you know give it sufficient time to 297 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:19,000 produce energy from fat and and also convert some of that fast 298 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,560 twitch fibers to slow twitch to become more efficient or at 299 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:26,680 least let your muscle recruit that slow twitch so it gets 300 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:28,760 drain and it gets stronger and more efficient. 301 00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:32,440 So you have to yeah, really slow down for quite a bit. 302 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:39,280 And yeah, I noticed over time as I limited the heart rate to zone 303 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:44,120 one, Zone 2, mostly zone one, really tend to make sure that 304 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,280 I'm I'm working on that ball and it just got better. 305 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,880 I just got faster over time. But you have to ignore the pace, 306 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:56,240 definitely ignore the pace, go low heart rate and spend as much 307 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,280 time as you can there. But don't also don't neglect the 308 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,440 more, you know, more intense workouts. 309 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,880 Just not do that all the time because I feel like a lot of 310 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:12,160 runners end up always doing like medium efforts, medium to high, 311 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:14,760 and thinking that. I think, you know the no pain, 312 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:16,640 no gain mentality is very present. 313 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,720 But that's just not how it works because if you're always pushing 314 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:25,120 hard thinking, well I'll get the most out of my time training. 315 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,040 Actually you don't because you've already developed that 316 00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:34,000 aspect of your Physiology and you you hit a plateau because 317 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:36,840 that's that's probably not the bottleneck on race day, just 318 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:41,040 running hard as hard as you can. You can't force the pace and 319 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,600 hope that the Physiology follows. 320 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,320 And you know your body doesn't really know about pace, it only 321 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:51,040 knows about energy production. It's just it's this biochemistry 322 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:56,040 inside your muscles and you have to understand that to teach your 323 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,640 body how to work on those bottlenecks. 324 00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:05,400 At this time we want to thank our sponsor You can Are you 325 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,160 tired of a spike in crash and GI distress that comes with the 326 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:13,120 sugar based sports nutrition. 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Especially because marathon 343 00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:09,800 running podcast listeners have a chance to try 4 gels for free. 344 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:11,680 All you pay for is the cost of shipping. 345 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:18,160 So head over to youcan.co/MRP which by the way stands for 346 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,560 Marathon Running Podcast to claim this offer and get your 347 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,720 free samples. If you are already using you can 348 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:29,600 and you want that 20% discount, you can just go to youcan.co and 349 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,880 save those 20 percents with code MRP. 350 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,120 We're also having all this LinkedIn, our show notes and now 351 00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:43,280 back to the show. My next question would be when 352 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,680 you did run the Chicago Marathon you just mentioned. 353 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,240 OK. I was hoping to run 245 and 354 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,160 under, but then you went 10 minutes under. 355 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:57,200 So can you tell us how your approach to that was from a 356 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,200 pacing strategy? Did it just feel too easy and 357 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,280 then you felt like, OK, I can pick it up and at what point in 358 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,080 the race did you make that determination? 359 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:11,240 Yeah, it was. I did start. 360 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,960 I I had a negative split in mind, just because I didn't know 361 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:21,120 how good my fitness would be. You know, I had a decent build, 362 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,360 you know, leading up to Chicago, but not the highest mileage or I 363 00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:27,840 didn't know how much progress I had made really during that 364 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:30,680 summer. So I started with a negative 365 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,360 split. I think my initial time estimate 366 00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:39,520 was between 2:42 and 2:45 and obviously when you start 367 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,960 Chicago, you're stuck in traffic for quite a bit. 368 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:43,480 So it, you know, I had no choice. 369 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:48,720 I couldn't really go faster, but eventually I got sort of out of 370 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,520 the traffic as passing, you know, trying to, you know, jump 371 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,760 over the fence by the the sidewalk, you know, like the 372 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,480 fence. Yeah, the fence poster. 373 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,480 Anyways, I was trying not to trip, trying to pass people and 374 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,520 eventually I could speed up a little bit and I think, I think 375 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:09,000 at some point the estimate was 240 and I felt good. 376 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:15,120 I I felt like I was in that spot where I'll give you more details 377 00:22:15,120 --> 00:22:19,160 just after this, but I was in a spot where I knew I was mostly 378 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:23,400 burning fat and I was definitely using a little bit of carbs, you 379 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,760 know, glycogen but not much. So I thought, wow, OK, I'm in a 380 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,960 good spot. I knew the water was cold, so I 381 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,120 wasn't, you know, heart rate wasn't too high. 382 00:22:32,120 --> 00:22:35,440 I wasn't sweaty. And I just felt, OK, let's let's 383 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,600 keep going into the first half and then see how I feel. 384 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,680 And when I crossed the first half, I think I did the 119. 385 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:48,960 So I was, I was, you know, way ahead of schedule and I was 386 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,120 still in that spot and feeling nice. 387 00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:53,520 So I decided, well, let's, let's speed up a bit. 388 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:58,560 Let's go into, you know, higher Zone 3 heart rate. 389 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,520 And I started pushing the pace. And obviously then your mindset 390 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,160 is so positive 'cause you're, you're picking up, you know, 391 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,200 you're just catching people all the time. 392 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,440 And my heart rate went up but I still felt good. 393 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:15,960 So that during the whole second-half I just speed up you 394 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,560 know one mile at a time and go a little faster and see how I 395 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,680 feel. And and at some point I saw, I 396 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:28,080 think my estimate was 234 and I was getting really excited. 397 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,280 As you know they also announced the world record and everybody 398 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:35,720 would picked up pace. So I I tried to hold that but 399 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,920 the last, the last five K leads when I decided OK, last 5K I'm 400 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,160 really going to push as hard as I can. 401 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:47,320 And and then we had the headwind which I didn't expect and also 402 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,320 probably at that point I was starting to fatigue a little 403 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,440 bit. I was really getting close to my 404 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,000 Zone 4 at that point and I'm like, OK, OK, this is probably 405 00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,600 where I need to be before the the end of the race. 406 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,760 I can't go any faster. I did slow down a bit with the 407 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:07,240 headwind and then I could see, oh, I can still do 235. 408 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,960 And yeah, I just held that to the end. 409 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:14,280 And yeah, I don't know, I it felt great. 410 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,840 It felt great. I waited until I saw the 400 411 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:22,640 meter sign to really push and really empty the fuel reservoir. 412 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,680 You know, I like to finish my marathons with a Sprint, which 413 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,280 is silly, but. But yeah, I don't know if I have 414 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,200 that extra boost of energy. I had a blast. 415 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,040 That's how it happened. Oh, that's amazing. 416 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,600 So a couple things that stuck out to me, you know, to play 417 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,680 devil's advocate. Obviously, we all would love to 418 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,120 see negative splits. That usually doesn't happen. 419 00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:46,640 And so my question would be, how do you know you're burning 420 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,080 mostly glycogen? What's on your Garmin watch 421 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:50,720 face? Do you just have instead of a 422 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:52,800 pace? Do you just have the, you know, 423 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,640 heart rate zone? Is that your biggest thing that 424 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,960 you have on your screen or what is on there? 425 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,160 And how did you. No. 426 00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:03,200 Yeah, it is. I do pay a lot of attention to 427 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,320 my heart rate zone. And so in my previous, in my 428 00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:12,080 previous marathon in Ottawa, I ran with just my watch and I 429 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,600 think my data was reliable until the end. 430 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:20,160 I was dehydrated and I saw my heart rate go up to 194 and I'll 431 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,920 never know if this was true or if it was just a glitch, but I 432 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:25,880 sort of panicked. I'm like, oh, what's going on? 433 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:30,120 This is really high for me and and so ever since I started 434 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,560 racing with the, you know the chest strap to make sure that 435 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:37,160 you know, I have good data which I did in Chicago and I could 436 00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:41,280 really rely on that. And the reason I knew what fuel 437 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:46,000 I was drawing from is that I did AVO 2 Max test and I've been 438 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,760 telling you about this how helpful that is not for the VO2 439 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,560 Max number per SE. Feel like that's. 440 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:57,200 It's an interesting benchmark, but it's sort of useless to help 441 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,640 your training and your racing. What really helps is is you can 442 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:09,000 see what what, what fuel you're drawing from at every heart rate 443 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,120 throughout the test. To do this by looking at your 444 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:19,880 your air exchange, like how much how much CO2 production per O2 445 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,640 update you have. That ratio tells you what fuel 446 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,120 you're you're using and that's that's pretty reliable. 447 00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:31,160 So once you have that you can define your zones in something 448 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,520 that's way more useful than the defaults in Garmin or anything 449 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,320 else. And the zone one I described as 450 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,000 basically only fat production, only only fat consumption rather 451 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,680 the fat oxidation with with a little bit of carbs you're 452 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,440 always burning carbs. There's sort of a baseline that 453 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,040 even at rest you're using, I think probably probably the 454 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:59,280 brain will need some, you know. So there's about 10%, right And 455 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,680 everything else is just is just fat. 456 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,120 And yeah, that's zone one. Eventually you move into zone 2 457 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:14,800 where if you if you do your VO2 Max test with a power meter and 458 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,760 you can know your watts as well during the test. 459 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:26,320 And so at that point, what you notice is as as you go faster 460 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:31,240 and higher heart rate, you need more power than you're able to 461 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,200 get from fat alone. And then you start, you start 462 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,720 getting some of that power from carbs, the glycogen burn 463 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,480 increases and your fat is just maxed out. 464 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,840 So for example, you might be you know maxed out at 200 watts from 465 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,920 fat and then anything above that will be carb. 466 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:57,600 And that increases in Zone 2 to a point where where basically 467 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:05,160 you get about 80% or 70% fat and maybe 20 to 30% carbs at the end 468 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,720 of of Zone 2. But your fat power is basically 469 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:12,840 flat at that point. The end of Zone 2 is is called 470 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,640 ventilatory threshold. That's usually if you're doing 471 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,720 the talk test, that's when it starts getting a little harder 472 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,480 to talk and you you have to breathe with your mouth. 473 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,720 If you need your mouth, you're basically crossing from Zone 2 474 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:28,680 to Zone 3. You're just nose breathing. 475 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,840 That's a good way to know that you're not overdoing it during 476 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,560 training, just nose breathing nice and easy. 477 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,280 That's that's Zone 2. And that's where I was for the 478 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:39,960 first part of my Chicago Marathon. 479 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:44,760 I was actually blown away. I didn't think I could hold Zone 480 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,680 2, so I knew I was running a little too slow and I could put 481 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,200 pick up the pace. Picking up the pace. 482 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:56,120 Basically for me, the marathon effort should be zone 3, which 483 00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:01,200 is a point where the actual production of energy from fat is 484 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,920 decreasing because you don't have enough oxygen. 485 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,760 And you know, fat oxidation requires more oxygen, if I 486 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,800 remember right, than than glycogen. 487 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,920 So at some point your body just decides, OK, we've got to use 488 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:21,240 the glycogen carbs and Zone 3 will go up to about 5050, all 489 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,320 right. So it might be 50% from fat, 50% 490 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,360 from carbs. It's still a lot from fat if 491 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,480 you've trained that base. And also those numbers might be 492 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,440 slightly different for individual. 493 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,080 But once you have a good aerobic base, you're you might be a 494 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:42,040 5050, which yeah, which is why you want to stay in that zone 495 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:46,320 because you can make that glycogen reserve last until the 496 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:53,200 end of your race. Zone 4 is more of 1/2 marathon 497 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,400 or faster effort. At that point. 498 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,080 What happens is you cross over to the majority of your energy 499 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,240 coming from carbs and much less from fat. 500 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,520 You're still getting a lot of energy from fat, so even if 501 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:11,160 you're a 10K or 5K runner, never neglected because that's where 502 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,600 the extra boost comes from. Often times if you maximize your 503 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,120 training to be really good at burning carbs, but you don't 504 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,720 work on the fat system while you'll plateau because you have 505 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,080 no more speed, no more energy to draw from. 506 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:31,160 But yes, zone 4 is that, that zone, but mostly carbs and it 507 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,120 goes up to your lactate threshold, the 2nd lactate 508 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,520 threshold, sometimes it's called, that's the point where 509 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,760 you go on aerobic basically through lack of oxygen. 510 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:48,360 At that point you start building up lactate and that causes the 511 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,600 the burn. So if you you go above that 512 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,960 threshold, you're in zone 5. That doesn't last long. 513 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:59,040 It lasts, like really in zone 5 it lasts about 6 minutes, so 514 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:03,240 that's something like a mile effort or you know, those faster 515 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,720 races. So for all intents and purposes, 516 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,000 marathon should not be run in zone 5. 517 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,040 You might finish a marathon in zone 5 if you really feel like 518 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,040 it, but that's that's not sustainable. 519 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:20,400 You're burning basically only carbs, maybe 10% fat at the 520 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,920 most, and and then you're using the anaerobic pathways, which 521 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,200 means without oxygen and this like you're sprinting. 522 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,640 That's kind of sprinting speed. So once you have those zones 523 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,840 mapped out from your own personal U2 Max test, you're 524 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,720 able to use them in training to really figure out which fuel 525 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,920 system you want to train. And during a race, you can know, 526 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:49,160 as you cross over from Zone 2 to Zone 3 to Zone 4, you can kind 527 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,440 of guess what energy you're drawing from. 528 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:57,680 And so for me, if I go into Zone 4 during the marathon, I know 529 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,160 that I should hold back. I should slow down because I I 530 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,040 won't be able to last. That's OK. 531 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:06,680 If I'm running a half marathon or a 10K, then hopefully I can 532 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,480 hold it, you know, because you can hold that probably for one 533 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,880 hour without fueling. Like you, you shouldn't need to 534 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,720 get gel during a one hour effort, but during the marathon, 535 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,600 that's it's very helpful to know where you are, and if you hit 536 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,040 zone 4, that better be at the end of the race. 537 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,280 Not not early, right? So that's that's how you can 538 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,080 manage a negative split the best way. 539 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:35,440 If you don't pay attention to it and you hit high Zone 3 or Zone 540 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,320 4 at the beginning of a marathon, you're almost 541 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:44,720 guaranteed to bunk. Wow, thank you, you know, for 542 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,400 explaining all of this. I think you made me come to 543 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,120 conclusions about about my last 20 marathons or so about heart 544 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:56,120 rate zones and what not to do. So ideally, try to stay in zone 545 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,440 3. And obviously if we want to 546 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,360 learn about that, it'd be best to, you know, put that on your 547 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,760 Garmin watch face now, just so you can kind of have an 548 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,560 estimate. And with all that, how far in 549 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,560 your opinion off are the estimated values on your Garmin 550 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:13,560 watch, where you put in your age and your weight and all that 551 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:15,680 stuff? How how far off are they? 552 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,840 Are they something for runners that don't have access to VO2 553 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,840 Max tests, or they don't have it in their budget? 554 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,440 How far off is it for them to be useful? 555 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:27,800 Right. Well, the standard zones in 556 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,920 Garmin and and Polar or most, you know, watches or any sort of 557 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:36,080 cardio equipment since they showed up in gyms, they're 558 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:40,160 completely off. The reason is when they started, 559 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:44,800 they just went with zone one is you know, 50% and up and then 60 560 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,040 percent, 70%, eighty percent, 90%. 561 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:55,040 And those zones are, you know, just you know, standard 10% 562 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,400 ranges, but they don't correlate to anything about running 563 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,040 effort. And in fact you're running zones 564 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,040 will be would be different than your cycling zones. 565 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:10,560 So to really pay attention to what happens in running your 566 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,520 zones would be a little different. 567 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:19,159 And prior to getting a view to Max test, I was using different 568 00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:25,880 zones, I think I used 82 trying to look it up. 569 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:30,480 But it starts. It starts way higher than the 570 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:36,080 starting standard. Garmin, I can't find my 571 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:44,159 reference to them, but but yeah, I'll get back to you on that. 572 00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:50,800 But you know they, they start at 82% for Zone 2 up to 88% and 573 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:56,360 then your Zone 3 would be 89 to 94, zone 495 to 99 and then your 574 00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:02,160 maximum zone of Zone 5 would be would be higher. 575 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:08,160 Yeah. So, so there's 50% to 60% zones 576 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,480 in Garmin are somewhat misleading, right. 577 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,080 So first First things first is you have to fix those. 578 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,600 But the best obviously the even the zones that I listed that are 579 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:24,320 higher and the 89% range of maximum heart rate, they rely on 580 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,640 having a precise Max heart rate, which is often not the case. 581 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,840 It it could, you know most people use the default which is 582 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:38,000 maybe 220 minus your age. That might work for some people, 583 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:42,000 but it's just just you know, statistically it's just an 584 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,160 average. And for most people that are 585 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,400 actually training, especially at the marathon level, your Max 586 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:51,120 heart rate might be different, sometimes much higher, sometimes 587 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,000 much lower. So you have to find out your own 588 00:35:54,240 --> 00:35:57,880 Max heart rate, but even then have to think that OK, if you 589 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:02,360 use percentages of Max heart rate, you have to fit in the 590 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,200 average, right? This is just a statistical 591 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,120 average of what the zones would be for some people. 592 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,800 So the best thing really is to get a view to Max test and make 593 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,200 sure that the zones are your own, right? 594 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,320 I used to. Oh, I'm sorry. 595 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,080 Yeah, look, I I used to train with the standard zones and I 596 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,280 was always off. I could never hit my zone 4, 597 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:28,960 zone five. It was impossible. 598 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,160 And so it's just because my Max heart rate has evolved since I 599 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,800 started training. It's gone down and and yeah, the 600 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,200 zones just didn't match. Though I only started training 601 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:44,280 at the right intensity after I did the VO2 Max test. 602 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,800 OK. And those zones, are they 603 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:50,200 obviously they changed as we age, right? 604 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,800 Are they completely fluid? Like, should I wait till I'm in 605 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:57,400 shape to go take a test or, hey, I'm just now getting off the 606 00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,680 couch and I want to run my first marathon. 607 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:01,680 Is now a good time to take that test? 608 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,120 I think, I think so. I think you know the view 2 Max 609 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,920 test. Obviously your zones might 610 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:13,080 evolve after a couple years of marathon training, but I think 611 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,960 it's really helpful so that it can guide your training so you 612 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,480 don't overtrain because overtraining is a really good 613 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,320 way to get injured. But the VO2 Max test shouldn't 614 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,760 be scary. You can ignore the Max part of 615 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,400 it and you don't have to go all the way to your Max heart rate. 616 00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:35,720 What you're looking for is really your energy consumption 617 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,960 at slower than marathon pace. At marathon pace in half 618 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,720 marathon paces, you you go faster and faster, let's say 619 00:37:42,720 --> 00:37:45,960 every minute you speed up a little bit on the treadmill, you 620 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,360 get that very useful data. And yeah, you don't need to go 621 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,200 all the way to the Max heart rate to have actionable heart 622 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,600 rate zones and so. So for me, I don't think I went 623 00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:00,360 much faster than 5K pace before I got that useful data. 624 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,640 So I yeah, I would recommend everyone try to, you know, go to 625 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:08,240 your local university, the Physiology lab, get the test and 626 00:38:08,240 --> 00:38:12,040 get the Excel spreadsheet and and then when you train you can 627 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:17,240 make sure you're at the right intensity and it'll really speed 628 00:38:17,240 --> 00:38:19,400 up your progress. Perfect. 629 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,920 Thank you Martin for all this information. 630 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:26,920 Super insightful and if people want more, will there be a 631 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,960 YouTube channel, No pressure or anything else in the future. 632 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:34,920 No plans for that. No plans for that. 633 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:39,320 I'm all I'm focusing on, on my own training, trying to get 634 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,800 better, trying to get ready for Boston. 635 00:38:42,720 --> 00:38:44,200 Perfect. So we wish you good luck at 636 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,120 Boston. What is your goal for Boston? 637 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,840 Well, I'd like to be 235, but again, the same thing as last 638 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:53,400 time. I don't know how much progress 639 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,640 I've made yet. I haven't really tested myself 640 00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,920 on a race for a a few months, so we'll find out, but I'll 641 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,480 probably start, you know, at that 235 pace, use the same 642 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:06,600 strategy. If I feel good, I'll just speed 643 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:11,200 up over time and I don't know, maybe I can hit 232 or something 644 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:12,640 like that. That'd be really be cool. 645 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,240 That'll be interesting to be. Thank you so much for coming on. 646 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:18,960 You're welcome. Thanks, lady. 647 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,760 Thank you VO2 Martin for all this wonderful information. 648 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,240 I hope everybody took notes. And if not, I think Apple 649 00:39:29,240 --> 00:39:32,400 Podcast now gives you free notes for podcasts. 650 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,280 At least that's what the e-mail said to me. 651 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,720 So that's pretty exciting. You can go back and read the 652 00:39:36,720 --> 00:39:38,840 transcript. But yeah, definitely. 653 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:40,360 Thank you, Martin, for your time. 654 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,440 And like I said, I think some listeners will hopefully find 655 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,200 that useful and be able to get faster. 656 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,920 Yes, we want to be like you, Martin, and that's it for today. 657 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,480 Thank you guys for tuning in. And TuneIn? 658 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,080 Next week we have a podcast named. 659 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:01,440 From setbacks to comebacks, I think I may have announced that 660 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:05,320 in the past that it was going to drop a week before, but you 661 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,680 know, here we are semi 6, so be patient with us. 662 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,680 Hopefully it'll drop next week. If not, there'll be some other 663 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,960 awesome content available for you, just like every week. 664 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,160 And with that? Have a great week of running. 665 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,400 Thanks for tuning in. For more information Ant 666 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,320 Marathon running news, please head to 667 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:32,720 www.marathonrunningpodcast.com and we'll be back next week. 668 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:47,840 Are you looking for the perfect apparel that mirrors your love 669 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,720 for running? 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