1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,640 You're listening to episode 175 of the Marathon Running Podcast. 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:07,040 In this episode, we're going to talk to the author of Mental 3 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:17,880 Training for Ultra Running. This is the Marathon Running 4 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,480 podcast by Letty and Ryan from We Got The Runs. 5 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,760 Join us in our running community for weekly content that is 6 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,840 motivational, educational and inspirational. 7 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:29,520 And let the Marathon Running podcast take you from the 8 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,080 starting line to the finish line and beyond. 9 00:00:37,150 --> 00:00:39,830 Hey, runners, and welcome to episode 175. 10 00:00:39,830 --> 00:00:41,550 My name is Letty. My name is right. 11 00:00:41,710 --> 00:00:44,150 Welcome back if you're new and thank you for tuning in. 12 00:00:44,150 --> 00:00:47,070 If this is your first time, we do a weekly marathon running 13 00:00:47,070 --> 00:00:49,310 podcast. We talk about all things that 14 00:00:49,310 --> 00:00:52,070 are fun in regards to running, such as training, nutrition, 15 00:00:52,070 --> 00:00:56,230 race recaps, book reviews too. And today that's exactly what we 16 00:00:56,230 --> 00:00:57,870 have for you. So welcome. 17 00:00:57,910 --> 00:01:01,550 So mental training for ultra marathons, it's got to be even 18 00:01:01,550 --> 00:01:03,910 more important than for marathons, because I think a 19 00:01:03,910 --> 00:01:05,510 big. Part of it is you go those 20 00:01:05,510 --> 00:01:07,630 greater distances is the mental aspect of it. 21 00:01:07,670 --> 00:01:09,470 But it's probably still relevant. 22 00:01:09,550 --> 00:01:12,190 Yes, and the author of this book is Addie Brayson. 23 00:01:12,350 --> 00:01:15,430 She talked to us in this interview and I one of the first 24 00:01:15,430 --> 00:01:18,070 questions I asked her was if this is applicable for 25 00:01:18,070 --> 00:01:22,450 marathoners as well. Obviously I assumed it was and 26 00:01:22,450 --> 00:01:25,970 she said yes, absolutely. Probably 80 to 90% of this book 27 00:01:25,970 --> 00:01:30,090 is applicable for marathoners as it is for ultra marathon 28 00:01:30,090 --> 00:01:32,370 running. It's just that there was less 29 00:01:32,370 --> 00:01:36,370 material out there for specifically ultra runners. 30 00:01:37,210 --> 00:01:39,650 Like with anything, I think if you take an extreme, you can 31 00:01:39,930 --> 00:01:43,050 apply it to other parts of what you're doing. 32 00:01:43,050 --> 00:01:46,210 So like that's a good example of, you know, mentally it must 33 00:01:46,210 --> 00:01:49,420 be really difficult to run a. Ultra marathon, And therefore 34 00:01:49,700 --> 00:01:52,420 some of the aspects and challenges that people might 35 00:01:52,420 --> 00:01:54,500 endure, and some of the things you're going to learn from that 36 00:01:54,500 --> 00:01:56,700 will probably be applicable to something smaller. 37 00:01:56,700 --> 00:01:58,380 Like a marathon. Exactly. 38 00:01:58,620 --> 00:02:01,620 So Letty mental training is a favorite topic of yours. 39 00:02:02,060 --> 00:02:05,600 Yes, absolutely. I love the mental aspect. 40 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,039 Well, love hate, right. Because I feel like I'm not good 41 00:02:08,039 --> 00:02:12,000 at it and that's why I seek it out so much and the hope that I 42 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:13,680 will eventually get better at it. 43 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,320 But yeah, I mean, I always think it's fascinating how we don't 44 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:19,460 have a gauge. We don't have any kind of way of 45 00:02:19,460 --> 00:02:21,660 measuring how mentally strong we are. 46 00:02:21,740 --> 00:02:24,780 Whereas when we run, we can see how fast we are because our 47 00:02:24,780 --> 00:02:27,460 garment tells us. We can see how much we weigh, we 48 00:02:27,460 --> 00:02:29,780 can see how fatigue we are. But there's nothing that gives 49 00:02:29,780 --> 00:02:33,620 us some kind of insight to where a runner stands mentally. 50 00:02:33,660 --> 00:02:36,420 And I also feel like we put so much time and effort into our 51 00:02:36,420 --> 00:02:41,420 training physically, but yet we do so little for our mind game. 52 00:02:41,930 --> 00:02:45,730 Yeah, mental aspects of life in general are very hard to measure 53 00:02:45,730 --> 00:02:50,410 and quantify as opposed to, like you said, other things including 54 00:02:50,410 --> 00:02:55,810 time or like running time or you know, how you feel even after a 55 00:02:55,810 --> 00:02:58,610 run muscle soreness. Things like that are easier to 56 00:02:58,610 --> 00:03:00,690 quantify. Wouldn't it be funny if it was 57 00:03:00,690 --> 00:03:03,450 just written on our foreheads how well trained we are 58 00:03:03,450 --> 00:03:05,870 mentally? You know, it's kind of like you, 59 00:03:05,910 --> 00:03:09,270 you look at a person you can a lot of times see how physically 60 00:03:09,270 --> 00:03:11,990 fit they are. What if we had something on our 61 00:03:11,990 --> 00:03:13,910 foreheads that said how sane we are? 62 00:03:15,030 --> 00:03:17,190 I think that would avoid a lot of relationship trouble. 63 00:03:18,150 --> 00:03:19,670 It's like you need one of those mood rings. 64 00:03:19,870 --> 00:03:22,190 Yes, exactly. I wish we had that. 65 00:03:22,830 --> 00:03:24,750 How did you come across this book? 66 00:03:25,550 --> 00:03:29,270 So if you remember a couple of weeks ago, we had two guests on 67 00:03:29,820 --> 00:03:33,780 that do running book reviews and they gave us five books that 68 00:03:33,780 --> 00:03:38,700 were pertinent to fall training. One of them was on the aspect of 69 00:03:38,700 --> 00:03:42,100 running physical prehab rehab, nutrition. 70 00:03:42,100 --> 00:03:44,540 And then we also had that mental running book on there. 71 00:03:44,540 --> 00:03:47,860 So I reached out to the author, who very nicely and kindly 72 00:03:47,860 --> 00:03:51,500 agreed to come on our podcast and talk to us about her book. 73 00:03:51,860 --> 00:03:53,380 That's cool, Eddie. You want to get into it before 74 00:03:53,380 --> 00:03:55,540 you start rambling more? Yeah, let's do that. 75 00:03:55,540 --> 00:03:57,540 Without any further ado, we're not going to play our 76 00:03:57,740 --> 00:04:03,540 conversation with Addie Brason. All right, I'm on here with 77 00:04:03,540 --> 00:04:05,580 Eddie Bracy. Addie, thank you so much for 78 00:04:05,580 --> 00:04:07,300 joining me today. Yeah. 79 00:04:07,300 --> 00:04:09,660 Thanks for having me. Can you tell us a little bit 80 00:04:09,660 --> 00:04:14,420 about yourself, what you do and how you became an expert when it 81 00:04:14,420 --> 00:04:16,860 comes to mental training and then wrote a book about it? 82 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:21,680 Yeah, I'm a lifelong runner. I ran, you know, in college and 83 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,800 ran after college for a while, lots of marathons back in the 84 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,240 day. Now I specialize more in ultra 85 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,480 distance running. So I run professionally for Nike 86 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,840 Trail and I've coached for a long time. 87 00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:35,480 I've coached for, gosh, probably 15 years. 88 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:39,160 And during that time started to kind of notice the maybe gap 89 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,220 between the. Resources for mental training 90 00:04:42,220 --> 00:04:45,300 and mental preparation for races and saw that in my coaching and 91 00:04:45,300 --> 00:04:47,820 as an athlete. And so yeah, I just decided to 92 00:04:48,220 --> 00:04:50,860 got, got pretty fascinated with it and recognized how important 93 00:04:50,860 --> 00:04:53,060 it was and maybe what I thought was kind of the missing piece 94 00:04:53,060 --> 00:04:55,380 for a lot of people. So decided to go back to grad 95 00:04:55,380 --> 00:04:58,220 school about five or six years ago for sports psychology and 96 00:04:58,220 --> 00:05:02,140 studied, studied in that field and then kind of, I guess 97 00:05:02,620 --> 00:05:04,620 narrowed down my focus specifically to kind of how that 98 00:05:04,620 --> 00:05:07,430 applies to running. That's perfect. 99 00:05:07,430 --> 00:05:09,750 And I kind of want to backtrack because I know Nike doesn't just 100 00:05:09,750 --> 00:05:11,830 sponsor everybody. So tell us how that all 101 00:05:11,830 --> 00:05:14,990 happened. Yeah, like I said, I was a 102 00:05:14,990 --> 00:05:17,430 lifelong runner. I, you know, ran at a pretty 103 00:05:17,430 --> 00:05:20,390 high level on the track and on the roads, running marathons and 104 00:05:20,390 --> 00:05:23,150 then kind of got to the point where I wasn't getting faster 105 00:05:23,150 --> 00:05:25,870 anymore and decided I was, you know, maybe ready to move on 106 00:05:25,870 --> 00:05:28,270 from running and kind of just somehow found trail running. 107 00:05:29,150 --> 00:05:31,710 I live in, you know, just outside Boulder, Co so kind of a 108 00:05:31,710 --> 00:05:34,400 good place for it and. Ran some races and eventually 109 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:36,680 got connected with Nike and they were building out their trail 110 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:38,560 team. So I've been with them for about 111 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:40,800 five or six years now. Nice. 112 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:42,360 Very nice. All right. 113 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,240 So about your book. Your book is titled Mental 114 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,280 Training for Ultra Marathons, perhaps. 115 00:05:48,280 --> 00:05:51,680 Can you tell us how this can also be applied for marathon 116 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:53,240 runners? Because most of our listeners 117 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,120 don't run ultras. They run marathons. 118 00:05:55,860 --> 00:05:59,660 Yeah, I mean there's I would say 80 to 90% of the book applies to 119 00:05:59,660 --> 00:06:03,460 almost like any distances. At the time I had, you know, 120 00:06:03,460 --> 00:06:06,340 when I was in grad school, I ran my first ultra race and now I 121 00:06:06,340 --> 00:06:09,460 kind of run like ultra ultra races like 50 to 100 miles. 122 00:06:09,460 --> 00:06:14,700 And I I felt like there was even less mental training resources 123 00:06:14,700 --> 00:06:17,140 for those distances. And those are, I think do have 124 00:06:17,140 --> 00:06:21,060 some unique qualities just. Being so different from from 125 00:06:21,060 --> 00:06:23,260 preparation with with marathons, you know you can get pretty 126 00:06:23,260 --> 00:06:25,820 close to race distance. Maybe you're doing a 20 or 22 127 00:06:25,820 --> 00:06:28,740 mile run before a race, but with 100 mile or you're not, you're 128 00:06:28,740 --> 00:06:31,340 not even coming close. And so there's some chapters and 129 00:06:31,340 --> 00:06:33,700 some components that speak directly to kind of like the 130 00:06:33,700 --> 00:06:36,820 unique nature of those. But beyond that, the mental 131 00:06:36,820 --> 00:06:40,100 skills I think could be applied to any distance, just kind of 132 00:06:40,100 --> 00:06:41,740 sometimes through the lens of ultra running. 133 00:06:42,540 --> 00:06:45,060 That's awesome. All right, so now that we've 134 00:06:45,060 --> 00:06:48,550 cleared that up, your book discusses also why psychological 135 00:06:48,550 --> 00:06:52,110 breakdowns happen in running. And maybe can you help us 136 00:06:52,110 --> 00:06:56,430 understand these breakdowns? And who faces these breakdowns 137 00:06:56,430 --> 00:07:00,190 and what type of challenges do we face during a race? 138 00:07:01,150 --> 00:07:03,830 Yeah, I kind of think of the psychological breakdowns as 139 00:07:03,830 --> 00:07:07,230 anytime that's maybe what you could attribute. 140 00:07:08,490 --> 00:07:10,770 You know that that point in a race when things kind of start 141 00:07:10,770 --> 00:07:13,770 to maybe not go as you thought or you fall a little bit short 142 00:07:13,770 --> 00:07:15,650 of the goal or maybe even you still meet the goal. 143 00:07:15,650 --> 00:07:18,050 But when you think back on, like when the challenging parts of 144 00:07:18,050 --> 00:07:21,530 the race were, for me, it tended to usually be mental or 145 00:07:21,530 --> 00:07:23,370 psychological. Whether it was like I couldn't 146 00:07:23,850 --> 00:07:26,610 manage whatever distracting thoughts I was having, or you 147 00:07:26,610 --> 00:07:29,530 know, the the difficulty or the challenge was too distracting, 148 00:07:29,530 --> 00:07:32,490 or you know you're off pace and then all of a sudden you're kind 149 00:07:32,490 --> 00:07:36,100 of, you know, letting that. Carry your your mind away with 150 00:07:36,100 --> 00:07:37,420 love. I just had a split that was too 151 00:07:37,420 --> 00:07:41,060 slow those kinds of things. So in in my experience that has 152 00:07:41,140 --> 00:07:45,900 been the biggest it it it was rare that I felt like I could 153 00:07:45,900 --> 00:07:48,700 reflect on a race and and say it was purely just physical. 154 00:07:48,700 --> 00:07:50,860 You know that I didn't maybe run the way I wanted to sometimes 155 00:07:50,900 --> 00:07:52,220 you know if you have like a really great day. 156 00:07:53,100 --> 00:07:57,060 So I think everybody is susceptible to to psychological 157 00:07:57,060 --> 00:07:58,380 breakdowns. It's not about. 158 00:07:58,810 --> 00:08:02,250 Avoiding those or somehow creating circumstances where 159 00:08:02,250 --> 00:08:03,930 they don't happen, it's just training for those. 160 00:08:03,930 --> 00:08:06,290 Just like you, you know, kind of trained for the mental or, 161 00:08:06,290 --> 00:08:07,970 sorry, the physical challenges of a race. 162 00:08:09,010 --> 00:08:11,170 Yeah, That's interesting that you say that because I feel like 163 00:08:11,170 --> 00:08:12,970 I agree with you. I've never had a marathon where 164 00:08:12,970 --> 00:08:17,370 I physically got injured. And if it's not an injury, the 165 00:08:17,370 --> 00:08:20,170 fatigue, how much of that fatigue would you say is mental? 166 00:08:20,170 --> 00:08:22,610 Because I know obviously we kind of get out of breath, we're 167 00:08:22,610 --> 00:08:25,410 pushing a little bit too hard, but you should be able to 168 00:08:25,410 --> 00:08:27,850 recover from that if you just slow down a little bit, right? 169 00:08:28,910 --> 00:08:30,950 Yeah, yeah. And we even know, I mean from 170 00:08:31,150 --> 00:08:35,990 from so much research that even when we perceive that we're like 171 00:08:35,990 --> 00:08:39,150 at our Max, we're not really, you know, there's like a it's 172 00:08:39,150 --> 00:08:42,789 called like the central governor theory, which is basically like, 173 00:08:42,789 --> 00:08:44,990 you know you have a governor on your car where your car maybe 174 00:08:44,990 --> 00:08:47,110 won't let you go over a certain speed and it's not because it 175 00:08:47,110 --> 00:08:49,630 can't. It's just it's not necessary and 176 00:08:49,630 --> 00:08:51,920 maybe would use. Too many resources and it's the 177 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,560 same, you know, in the body, our brains kind of like put a cap, 178 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,520 you know, on a certain effort level because if there were, you 179 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,000 know, we're not in a life threatening situation when we're 180 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:02,640 running. So it's not our, you know, 181 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:05,280 bodies are not going to let us deplete all of our resources 182 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,560 just in the event that maybe there was a reason why we needed 183 00:09:07,560 --> 00:09:09,800 to have a little extra. So when you think of it that 184 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:12,840 way, you know, you know, just literally, you know, 185 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:14,760 physiologically you're not at your Max. 186 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,080 And so the limiting factor does tend to kind of be the brain, 187 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,600 and there's a way to kind of. Push that needle, you know a 188 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,680 little bit further with with practice and training, OK. 189 00:09:22,680 --> 00:09:26,480 And we'll talk about maybe some tips of how to practice that in 190 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,240 a little bit. But you mentioned something that 191 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:33,440 I find very interesting. You talked about something where 192 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,240 we're not going to let ourselves do that because the situation is 193 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,880 not life threatening. And to me that kind of goes hand 194 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,840 in end with having a why. If you have a very, very 195 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:46,120 specific why, then that's what kind of keeps you going, right? 196 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:49,400 But if you don't, then you have excuses coming in. 197 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:51,840 In my case it's something like, oh, my family's going to love me 198 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,320 no matter whether I run this marathon 5 minutes faster or 199 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,520 not. So finding your why is something 200 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:01,040 that we heard is something we need to do and there's certain 201 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:03,080 ways of doing it. Keeping asking yourself why, but 202 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,120 maybe you have a better theory, because I'm like a lot of 203 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,000 runners in a situation where we just haven't found our why yet. 204 00:10:10,680 --> 00:10:13,600 Yeah, I think that I mean I think that finding your why and 205 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,640 identifying kind of the reason. You know how running kind of 206 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,120 fits into your values or, you know, kind of how you're trying 207 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,480 to live your life and spend your time is super important. 208 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,280 And I also think sometimes people get a little stressed 209 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,160 about like, Oh my gosh, but I don't know what mine is or think 210 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:32,640 that it has to be some big, huge, you know, life altering 211 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,720 revelation when it could just be like how it feels to like, push 212 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,000 yourself, you know? You like how it feels to feel 213 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:39,600 challenged. You like, you know, the 214 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:41,280 community of races. There's a lot of different 215 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:43,520 reasons, you know, why that could be important. 216 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,530 But. I do think it's necessary. 217 00:10:46,530 --> 00:10:50,170 I mean it's a little bit simplifying, but in to some 218 00:10:50,170 --> 00:10:53,530 degree, you know, our bodies are motivated by either seeking 219 00:10:53,530 --> 00:10:57,610 something, you know, whether it's pleasurable or rewarding. 220 00:10:57,610 --> 00:10:59,890 And sometimes running is not pleasurable and so there has to 221 00:10:59,890 --> 00:11:02,450 be like kind of something rewarding to be motivating. 222 00:11:02,450 --> 00:11:05,810 And so I think thinking about that ahead of time can be 223 00:11:05,810 --> 00:11:08,130 helpful in the moment to kind of find a reason, you know, to keep 224 00:11:08,130 --> 00:11:09,690 pushing. Otherwise, like to your point, 225 00:11:09,690 --> 00:11:13,420 it's a lot easier to sometimes find a reason not to right? 226 00:11:13,420 --> 00:11:15,940 And how do you have your athletes find their wise? 227 00:11:15,940 --> 00:11:19,020 Do you have to sit down with a notebook or how do you go about 228 00:11:19,020 --> 00:11:21,660 it? Yeah, I mean literally writing 229 00:11:21,660 --> 00:11:23,620 it out. I know there had when I first 230 00:11:23,620 --> 00:11:26,660 did that exercise for myself, I had run for a long time without 231 00:11:26,660 --> 00:11:28,140 ever really even thinking about that. 232 00:11:28,900 --> 00:11:31,420 And for me personally, I try to kind of fit it into. 233 00:11:32,020 --> 00:11:35,100 Just my values as a whole person, not just like my why is 234 00:11:35,100 --> 00:11:38,020 because I want to run a 3 hour marathon or whatever. 235 00:11:38,100 --> 00:11:40,020 That's not really a why. That's more of like a goal. 236 00:11:41,020 --> 00:11:43,860 So if you can kind of find a reason, a way to fit it into 237 00:11:43,860 --> 00:11:48,340 just your more like your life view, I think that can be more 238 00:11:48,340 --> 00:11:50,540 sustainable. Perfect. 239 00:11:50,580 --> 00:11:53,540 All right. So let's talk about a little bit 240 00:11:53,540 --> 00:11:56,620 of stress management. One of your chapters includes 241 00:11:56,620 --> 00:12:00,540 stress management, and maybe you can talk about how that's a 242 00:12:00,540 --> 00:12:05,900 value for runners. I mean, that's something that I 243 00:12:05,900 --> 00:12:08,340 see. I'm a coach as well, and I see 244 00:12:08,340 --> 00:12:11,260 with a lot of athletes maybe having a workout that didn't go 245 00:12:11,260 --> 00:12:15,580 that great or feeling just depleted. 246 00:12:15,580 --> 00:12:17,780 If we're a run and we kind of have a conversation and you find 247 00:12:17,780 --> 00:12:20,220 out there's all this other like life stress going on and all 248 00:12:20,220 --> 00:12:22,420 these other things happening and it could even be good things. 249 00:12:22,580 --> 00:12:25,360 It could be just. You know busy with work or busy 250 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:27,360 with family. So I think one thing is to 251 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:31,520 recognize that stress is it's all kind of coming from the same 252 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,760 place and and factoring that into training and to preparation 253 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:38,400 and recognizing that it's not like we can separate like life 254 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:40,760 stress versus running stress versus you know etcetera. 255 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,600 It's all kind of important. But you know as much as you can 256 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:48,560 do to I guess minimize, which is not always possible, but 257 00:12:48,560 --> 00:12:51,440 recognizing that is like a limited resource that's kind of 258 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:53,200 like more on a macro scale and then even. 259 00:12:53,900 --> 00:12:57,980 You know, within the context of preparation or running, you 260 00:12:57,980 --> 00:13:00,740 know, I don't know kind of simplifying things or reducing 261 00:13:00,740 --> 00:13:04,900 things that are unnecessary. That might be, you know, more 262 00:13:04,900 --> 00:13:06,860 stress inducing. And I think stress is a word 263 00:13:06,860 --> 00:13:10,820 that gets like a negative implication, but it's stress is 264 00:13:10,820 --> 00:13:13,700 not necessarily bad. You know, training, that is what 265 00:13:13,700 --> 00:13:15,420 training is. You're adding physical stress to 266 00:13:15,420 --> 00:13:17,900 your body and then following that up with recovery so that 267 00:13:17,900 --> 00:13:20,700 your body can, like, adapt. And so you kind of have to think 268 00:13:20,700 --> 00:13:23,740 of it in that holistic view of like what stress actually is and 269 00:13:23,740 --> 00:13:26,740 recognizing it's a good thing, but it also needs to be paired 270 00:13:26,740 --> 00:13:29,460 with like proper recovery in order to, you know, grow and 271 00:13:29,460 --> 00:13:32,500 adapt from it. I really like that. 272 00:13:32,500 --> 00:13:35,860 That's a great way of reframing it because it's true. 273 00:13:35,860 --> 00:13:37,380 That's what we do during training. 274 00:13:37,380 --> 00:13:39,940 We add an extra stress factor to our lives. 275 00:13:44,700 --> 00:13:47,340 Are you looking for the Perfect apparel That mirrors your love 276 00:13:47,340 --> 00:13:50,220 for running? 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Okay. 283 00:14:12,980 --> 00:14:17,020 So then I guess along with that, your next chapter kind of goes 284 00:14:17,020 --> 00:14:19,900 hand in hand and it's called getting comfortable with the, 285 00:14:20,140 --> 00:14:23,020 I'm sorry, getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. 286 00:14:23,260 --> 00:14:26,140 So it sounds kind of like a key concept for marathon is because 287 00:14:26,140 --> 00:14:28,940 a marathon is obviously not compared to the ultra, but it's 288 00:14:28,940 --> 00:14:31,100 a really long race, it's 26 miles. 289 00:14:31,460 --> 00:14:33,620 So how can this? How can they apply this 290 00:14:33,620 --> 00:14:37,620 principle during their long run and during their races to be 291 00:14:37,700 --> 00:14:39,620 comfortable with being uncomfortable? 292 00:14:40,820 --> 00:14:42,220 Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a. 293 00:14:44,830 --> 00:14:48,510 Like a tendency to again, think of discomfort as being some kind 294 00:14:48,510 --> 00:14:52,710 of bad thing, when in reality that's just like a byproduct of 295 00:14:52,710 --> 00:14:55,150 what you're doing. You know, it's uncomfortable to 296 00:14:55,150 --> 00:14:57,750 run fast or to run far. That's some that's putting, 297 00:14:57,750 --> 00:15:01,470 again, stress on your body. So you know, it's not about it. 298 00:15:01,470 --> 00:15:04,910 I think sometimes it is more of a matter of having athletes kind 299 00:15:04,910 --> 00:15:08,710 of reframe or redefine their relationship with what that 300 00:15:08,710 --> 00:15:10,670 means. You know, when things get 301 00:15:10,670 --> 00:15:13,070 harder, it feels hard. It doesn't necessarily mean it's 302 00:15:13,070 --> 00:15:15,990 because things aren't going well or you can't finish the race or, 303 00:15:16,430 --> 00:15:18,470 you know, you weren't ready. It means that what you're doing 304 00:15:18,470 --> 00:15:20,990 is hard. So there needs to be some kind 305 00:15:20,990 --> 00:15:24,630 of adaptation to that and like willingness to kind of be in 306 00:15:24,630 --> 00:15:27,270 that and feel that. And I you see that a lot with 307 00:15:27,270 --> 00:15:29,550 like athletes that are, you know, really high performers. 308 00:15:29,550 --> 00:15:32,310 I I remember hearing some interviews with some some like 309 00:15:32,310 --> 00:15:34,470 elite marathoners, Shelene Fleming and was one of them and 310 00:15:34,470 --> 00:15:37,680 talking about how? She associated that discomfort 311 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,920 with performing well to the point where she almost had to, 312 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,120 like, temper herself in the beginning of races because she 313 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:46,560 wanted to get to that point so quickly to be like, OK, now I'm 314 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:48,080 like doing the hard thing because it's hard. 315 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,280 It feels hard. So to her, you know that that 316 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:51,720 association was like a good thing. 317 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:55,160 It's like, that's necessary. So it's not bad. 318 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:57,480 And I think that sometimes we have this, I guess a tendency to 319 00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,000 react. The discomfort is like, oh 320 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,520 shoot, like I can't do it or this is really hard. 321 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,800 Or maybe I'm not as ready as I thought, which is not, not 322 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,120 necessarily true. Yeah. 323 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,240 No, I actually heard about that, what Chalene said. 324 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:13,400 And well, I guess the question boils down to how long are we 325 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:15,680 able to be comfortable with that? 326 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:18,840 And then the central governor, as you called it earlier, comes 327 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,560 back up because it won't let us do something for long if we 328 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:24,400 don't think we can sustain it. Right. 329 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:28,800 So how do we avoid feeling that even though we know the stress 330 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,360 is a good thing, but we know we can't last with it? 331 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,150 Or at least we think that? I mean, that's it. 332 00:16:34,150 --> 00:16:36,390 Yeah, definitely. Where I think the practicality 333 00:16:36,390 --> 00:16:39,270 of training comes in, you know, into play is practicing. 334 00:16:39,270 --> 00:16:42,790 You know, if you think about a marathon buildup, you're likely, 335 00:16:42,790 --> 00:16:45,230 you know, your listeners, regardless of what their goals 336 00:16:45,230 --> 00:16:47,710 are like, probably building their long runs throughout, you 337 00:16:47,710 --> 00:16:51,190 know, the duration of a race, prep for a marathon. 338 00:16:51,190 --> 00:16:57,070 And I think obviously there's the intention to like build the 339 00:16:57,190 --> 00:16:59,110 the physical strength to sustain that. 340 00:16:59,690 --> 00:17:01,970 But also the mental strength of like you're building up, how 341 00:17:01,970 --> 00:17:04,810 much longer can I, you know, the longer amount of time that you 342 00:17:04,810 --> 00:17:08,369 can sit in that discomfort, Maybe it's for 10 miles at 1st 343 00:17:08,369 --> 00:17:10,690 and then maybe you can build that up to 12 miles and then 15 344 00:17:10,690 --> 00:17:12,810 miles and then you're kind of just increasing like your 345 00:17:12,810 --> 00:17:14,650 tolerance of it. But you're right, you can't sit 346 00:17:14,650 --> 00:17:17,410 in discomfort forever. So there is also, you know, 347 00:17:17,410 --> 00:17:20,530 pacing comes into play and I'm not suggesting that people go 348 00:17:20,530 --> 00:17:22,730 out and like seek that discomfort early on. 349 00:17:22,730 --> 00:17:24,130 You know, like Shelene maybe said she did. 350 00:17:24,130 --> 00:17:26,650 That's not also not the the goal. 351 00:17:26,650 --> 00:17:29,570 It's not something you can. Just maintain and maintain and 352 00:17:29,570 --> 00:17:31,170 maintain. But I think training and 353 00:17:31,170 --> 00:17:34,050 preparation gives you a chance to practice that and also maybe 354 00:17:34,050 --> 00:17:37,330 get some kind of idea over how long that's sustainable. 355 00:17:38,130 --> 00:17:40,130 Yeah. And I guess I'm going to ask you 356 00:17:40,130 --> 00:17:41,610 this because you're a coach as well. 357 00:17:41,770 --> 00:17:46,130 So it seems like there's two views of how people do their 358 00:17:46,130 --> 00:17:48,170 quote, UN quote long runs on Sunday. 359 00:17:48,450 --> 00:17:53,290 Because a lot of the newer coaches, I want to say, and they 360 00:17:53,290 --> 00:17:58,870 they have people do their long runs at a much slower pace than 361 00:17:58,870 --> 00:18:03,270 the actual marathons, whereas the older coaches from the 80s 362 00:18:03,270 --> 00:18:06,230 and I have one of them. When we do our long runs on 363 00:18:06,230 --> 00:18:10,230 Sunday, we do have really long miles that we keep at a very 364 00:18:10,230 --> 00:18:15,910 hard pace and they agree with each other's viewpoint. 365 00:18:16,070 --> 00:18:18,510 I'm curious what you have to say about that. 366 00:18:19,950 --> 00:18:23,070 I mean, I think it's important to do the harder long runs as 367 00:18:23,070 --> 00:18:24,910 well, but obviously it's kind of like. 368 00:18:25,900 --> 00:18:29,180 You know the foundational piece would just be it would depend on 369 00:18:29,180 --> 00:18:31,300 the person's experience and maybe even where you were in a 370 00:18:31,300 --> 00:18:32,540 build. You know at first you just want 371 00:18:32,540 --> 00:18:36,020 to be able to get through the 15 miles and be like cool, I I I 372 00:18:36,420 --> 00:18:38,660 ran as slow as I needed to to like cover that distance. 373 00:18:38,660 --> 00:18:42,260 But then again to go back to stress, I mean if you don't add 374 00:18:42,260 --> 00:18:45,820 more stress you just kind of maintain where you are and so 375 00:18:45,980 --> 00:18:48,740 you also can't just run further and further and further forever. 376 00:18:48,740 --> 00:18:51,540 So you know the next layer of difficulty would be to like you 377 00:18:51,540 --> 00:18:55,020 just said, add you know components of harder segment. 378 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:57,520 Within a long run or half the long run is hard. 379 00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:59,600 Or a fast finished long run, or whatever it is. 380 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,880 Both adds physiological stress to help with the physiological 381 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,320 adaptations, but is also putting more mental stress on you and 382 00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:09,720 forcing you to kind of learn the skills to deal with that. 383 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:11,360 Okay. Perfect. 384 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,760 All right, so that boils down again, who are you and where are 385 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,320 you and your training I? Guess, yeah. 386 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:19,870 Yeah, for sure. All right. 387 00:19:19,870 --> 00:19:23,310 So then another another chapter that you have written about is 388 00:19:23,350 --> 00:19:25,990 running the mile you're in. I'm assuming it just means 389 00:19:25,990 --> 00:19:29,910 staying focused during your race and doing what you are doing 390 00:19:29,910 --> 00:19:32,430 just for that mile, letting go of all the other pressures. 391 00:19:32,430 --> 00:19:35,270 Can you maybe talk about that chapter a little bit? 392 00:19:36,030 --> 00:19:39,030 Yeah, it's it's mainly just about staying present and there 393 00:19:39,150 --> 00:19:43,650 there is obviously still a. A benefit to thinking ahead a 394 00:19:43,650 --> 00:19:45,650 little bit, I mean obviously that's what pacing is. 395 00:19:45,650 --> 00:19:48,450 You know, you kind of think maybe what you your goal for the 396 00:19:48,610 --> 00:19:51,530 for the marathon is and you kind of have these mild checkpoints 397 00:19:51,530 --> 00:19:54,050 of like am I on, you know, pace for what I thought. 398 00:19:54,050 --> 00:19:56,650 So there there's not like there's it's not like I'm 399 00:19:56,650 --> 00:19:58,250 suggesting. There's never a reason to kind 400 00:19:58,250 --> 00:20:00,530 of forward think. But at least in the moment when 401 00:20:00,530 --> 00:20:04,850 you're actually in the race itself, really all you can 402 00:20:04,850 --> 00:20:07,410 control is, is the mile that you're running at that point. 403 00:20:07,410 --> 00:20:09,130 You can't change the mile you just ran. 404 00:20:09,130 --> 00:20:11,370 If there was, you know, you were a couple seconds off pace. 405 00:20:12,090 --> 00:20:16,250 It's not really super beneficial to get too caught up and you 406 00:20:16,250 --> 00:20:18,610 know maybe how you might feel at mile 20 or mile 22. 407 00:20:18,610 --> 00:20:22,450 Although again, I do think there can be a benefit to a quick, a 408 00:20:22,450 --> 00:20:24,730 quick forward thinking of like, is this pace sustainable? 409 00:20:24,730 --> 00:20:28,010 Like how am I going to feel, you know, in an hour at this pace? 410 00:20:28,010 --> 00:20:29,570 OK, cool. I think I can sustain this, but 411 00:20:29,570 --> 00:20:32,210 it's not getting stuck in the forward thinking or getting 412 00:20:32,210 --> 00:20:34,890 stuck in the backwards thinking. It's still kind of using those 413 00:20:35,930 --> 00:20:40,210 quick thoughts about, you know, the future down down the road to 414 00:20:40,410 --> 00:20:42,930 adjust what you're doing now. So still the intention is still 415 00:20:42,930 --> 00:20:46,170 like in the present moment. Nice, Very nice. 416 00:20:46,650 --> 00:20:48,090 All right. So you know, in your next 417 00:20:48,090 --> 00:20:50,410 chapter you talk about sticking to the grind. 418 00:20:50,410 --> 00:20:53,730 How can that help our listeners staying committed to their 419 00:20:53,730 --> 00:20:56,210 training plans because it does get monotone. 420 00:20:56,210 --> 00:21:00,090 You have, you know, 12 to 16, sometimes 1820 weeks of the 421 00:21:00,090 --> 00:21:03,110 same. Yeah, yeah, I mean that's just a 422 00:21:03,110 --> 00:21:06,390 little bit what what you're signing up for is the long term. 423 00:21:06,950 --> 00:21:09,070 And I think, you know, running progression is really about 424 00:21:09,070 --> 00:21:11,150 consistency. You know, you can miss a day 425 00:21:11,150 --> 00:21:13,310 here and there or have a bad workout here and there. 426 00:21:13,310 --> 00:21:15,630 But kind of sticking to it over the long term, I think is where 427 00:21:15,670 --> 00:21:16,910 where you really see the results. 428 00:21:16,910 --> 00:21:20,030 And in my mind, I think that actually makes me feel a little 429 00:21:20,030 --> 00:21:22,790 bit more flexible sometimes because I recognize, you know, 430 00:21:22,790 --> 00:21:27,070 the goal is again consistency and like a lot of variables over 431 00:21:27,070 --> 00:21:28,910 a long period of time. And so it lets me be a little 432 00:21:28,910 --> 00:21:31,510 bit more flexible, maybe day-to-day or week to week, if 433 00:21:31,950 --> 00:21:34,510 work was busy and I didn't get to do that workout or I missed a 434 00:21:34,510 --> 00:21:36,910 run. Sometimes I think athletes will 435 00:21:36,910 --> 00:21:38,950 kind of let that derail them because they think everything 436 00:21:38,950 --> 00:21:41,470 has to be like, so perfect. But that's not necessarily true. 437 00:21:41,470 --> 00:21:43,950 Again, it's like grinding over, you know, a longer period of 438 00:21:43,950 --> 00:21:46,030 time. Yeah, that makes sense. 439 00:21:46,030 --> 00:21:49,030 And then that kind of goes hand in hand with your chapter that 440 00:21:49,030 --> 00:21:53,630 comes next, which is an adaptability, which, you know, 441 00:21:53,630 --> 00:21:57,110 your training is as unpredicted as marathons can go, right? 442 00:21:57,110 --> 00:21:58,790 Can you talk about that perhaps a little bit? 443 00:21:59,570 --> 00:22:01,130 Yeah. And that's that's when I think 444 00:22:01,130 --> 00:22:04,170 even becomes adaptability becomes an even more important 445 00:22:04,170 --> 00:22:07,730 skill, I think in the longer races because there's just so 446 00:22:07,730 --> 00:22:09,450 many variables. But you know, the longer you're 447 00:22:09,450 --> 00:22:11,170 out there and that's the same as in a marathon. 448 00:22:11,170 --> 00:22:14,090 If you think of a marathon versus a 5K, there's so many 449 00:22:14,090 --> 00:22:16,570 more factors, there's so many more decision points and like 450 00:22:16,570 --> 00:22:19,170 things that could happen. So when you extrapolate that, 451 00:22:19,170 --> 00:22:22,530 you know, a four hour race up to like a 30 hour race, there's 452 00:22:22,530 --> 00:22:24,570 just a lot of stuff that can happen and you have to, you 453 00:22:24,650 --> 00:22:28,530 know, be willing to pivot. And sometimes again, I think 454 00:22:28,530 --> 00:22:32,550 there's we can kind of almost like idealize a race. 455 00:22:32,590 --> 00:22:34,550 And you know, especially if you've been training for, like 456 00:22:34,550 --> 00:22:38,430 you said 12141820 weeks, you've been like daydreaming about it. 457 00:22:38,830 --> 00:22:40,950 And then you find yourself in the race and maybe it doesn't 458 00:22:40,950 --> 00:22:42,510 look or feel like you thought it would. 459 00:22:43,510 --> 00:22:45,950 And if that's the case, it can be really easy to kind of shut 460 00:22:45,950 --> 00:22:48,830 down and be like, well, this wasn't, this wasn't the way I 461 00:22:48,830 --> 00:22:50,950 thought it was going to be. But if you're willing to kind of 462 00:22:50,950 --> 00:22:53,910 adapt and and recognize, OK, maybe it's not exactly unfolding 463 00:22:53,910 --> 00:22:57,110 the way I thought, but I can like shift my perspective or 464 00:22:57,110 --> 00:22:59,590 adjust my goal and maybe, you know, I still want to finish and 465 00:22:59,590 --> 00:23:02,510 so I'll slow down a little bit or it's a nutrition thing. 466 00:23:02,510 --> 00:23:05,150 So let me just stop at this aid station and like cool down or 467 00:23:05,150 --> 00:23:06,550 whatever it is. If you're willing to kind of 468 00:23:06,550 --> 00:23:10,230 problem solve and again be present and adapt, you can still 469 00:23:10,630 --> 00:23:13,310 have a performance I think that you're really happy with, even 470 00:23:13,310 --> 00:23:15,590 if the objective outcome maybe wasn't what you thought it was 471 00:23:15,590 --> 00:23:17,270 going to be. Right. 472 00:23:17,270 --> 00:23:18,470 Because you never really know, right? 473 00:23:19,350 --> 00:23:22,550 Yeah, I never know. All right, so your Chapter 8 474 00:23:22,550 --> 00:23:25,550 running with courage is a very powerful concept. 475 00:23:25,990 --> 00:23:29,350 How can marathoners develop these, this courage during their 476 00:23:29,350 --> 00:23:34,070 races and do that especially when they hit those challenging 477 00:23:34,070 --> 00:23:35,870 moments later on in the marathon? 478 00:23:37,350 --> 00:23:39,830 I mean, I, yeah, I already, I already think anybody that even 479 00:23:39,830 --> 00:23:42,230 lines up for a marathon, you know, is brave. 480 00:23:42,270 --> 00:23:45,360 I think that it's a very vulnerable sport and very 481 00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:47,920 exposing. And you know, you, your results 482 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:49,040 are right there next to your name. 483 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:50,240 There's really kind of no hiding. 484 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,440 So I think the people already should be kind of celebrating 485 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,680 that, that you're even willing to go, you know, to go out and 486 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:59,440 try it. But yeah, I think just 487 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,760 recognizing that vulnerability and kind of having that courage 488 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,320 is necessary because like you just said, you don't know how 489 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,880 it's going to turn out. And so the only, you know, way 490 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:12,560 you're willing to try something with no, like, I don't know, 491 00:24:13,410 --> 00:24:15,890 certainty over what's actually even going to happen is to, you 492 00:24:15,890 --> 00:24:17,570 know, to kind of to be brave about it. 493 00:24:18,730 --> 00:24:20,930 And I think that's fun to like embrace that. 494 00:24:20,930 --> 00:24:23,650 I remember my first real big 100 miler. 495 00:24:23,650 --> 00:24:25,210 I was having a really tough time. 496 00:24:25,250 --> 00:24:27,810 When I got to like 80 miles, I was really struggling and kind 497 00:24:27,810 --> 00:24:29,170 of thought, you know, I think I need to stop. 498 00:24:29,170 --> 00:24:31,170 This is really hard. I don't know if I can do this. 499 00:24:31,690 --> 00:24:35,100 And I had a friend there that kind of said, she said this is 500 00:24:35,100 --> 00:24:37,500 This is why you came here, you know, to be in this moment where 501 00:24:37,500 --> 00:24:39,220 you didn't know if you could finish. 502 00:24:39,220 --> 00:24:40,940 And now you get to like, decide what to do with that. 503 00:24:40,940 --> 00:24:43,700 And that was a good reminder of, like, this concept of, yeah, 504 00:24:43,700 --> 00:24:45,620 This is why I came here. And you know, when you think 505 00:24:45,620 --> 00:24:49,820 about marathons, like, you came there to get to 22 miles and see 506 00:24:49,820 --> 00:24:51,660 what happens next. And that's kind of the point. 507 00:24:51,700 --> 00:24:54,820 And so when you embrace that and recognize it's not a bad thing, 508 00:24:54,820 --> 00:24:58,460 it's a necessary thing, and it's maybe even the thing I think 509 00:24:58,460 --> 00:24:59,780 that can be a lot more empowering. 510 00:25:01,060 --> 00:25:04,060 Wow, that is really powerful. So I'm assuming you finished 511 00:25:04,060 --> 00:25:05,580 that race. I did, yeah. 512 00:25:05,580 --> 00:25:07,300 I'm very happy that I did. Yeah, it was awesome. 513 00:25:08,500 --> 00:25:09,980 Have you ever not finished the race? 514 00:25:10,340 --> 00:25:12,260 Yeah, yeah. And there's been times when 515 00:25:12,260 --> 00:25:13,980 that's been like the right decision. 516 00:25:13,980 --> 00:25:16,780 Sometimes the mental piece is huge. 517 00:25:16,820 --> 00:25:18,380 And also it's not the only thing. 518 00:25:18,380 --> 00:25:21,540 Like sometimes races don't go well because something happens 519 00:25:21,580 --> 00:25:24,950 and that's also okay. Well, I'm assuming, I mean, a 520 00:25:24,950 --> 00:25:28,510 lot of more physical stuff is going to happen during an ultra 521 00:25:28,510 --> 00:25:33,070 of a marathon than a marathon. And not to, you know, bash when 522 00:25:33,070 --> 00:25:37,470 our marathon runners, but it's 26 miles versus 100 miles where 523 00:25:37,470 --> 00:25:40,390 you know, one little blister during a marathon that's already 524 00:25:40,390 --> 00:25:41,990 so painful. I can't imagine whether I would 525 00:25:41,990 --> 00:25:45,790 feel like at mile 75, Yeah, sometimes. 526 00:25:45,790 --> 00:25:47,830 Just like the sheer duration of 100 milers. 527 00:25:47,830 --> 00:25:51,470 You know, it's if you're having stomach issues and maybe having 528 00:25:51,470 --> 00:25:54,670 like a lot of vomiting or something and it's you're 60 529 00:25:54,670 --> 00:25:57,390 miles in, it's kind of hard to see how that might be possible 530 00:25:57,390 --> 00:26:00,230 to go 10 more hours where you're right, maybe in a marathon. 531 00:26:00,230 --> 00:26:02,070 It's not. I still, you know, marathons are 532 00:26:02,070 --> 00:26:03,550 just different. They're higher intensity. 533 00:26:03,550 --> 00:26:06,390 They're still as hard, I think, but they're just different. 534 00:26:06,470 --> 00:26:09,150 So sometimes some. I think the dropout rates are 535 00:26:09,150 --> 00:26:11,070 higher in ultras than maybe in marathons. 536 00:26:12,070 --> 00:26:14,630 Yeah, I can see that. I mean, I've done marathons for 537 00:26:14,630 --> 00:26:17,790 fun before when my husband, he's not a marathon runner, but we 538 00:26:17,790 --> 00:26:20,750 ran a marathon. We ran it slowly and just being 539 00:26:20,750 --> 00:26:25,910 on your feet for almost 5 hours is already painful. 540 00:26:25,910 --> 00:26:29,150 I can't imagine having to do this for 75 more miles because I 541 00:26:29,150 --> 00:26:32,430 know you don't Sprint out during an ultra, but then just to be on 542 00:26:32,430 --> 00:26:35,870 your feet for that long, that's just, I can't imagine, yeah, 543 00:26:35,950 --> 00:26:37,550 it's a long time. A lot of different things can 544 00:26:37,550 --> 00:26:39,030 come up. Yeah. 545 00:26:40,170 --> 00:26:43,530 So with fall marathons just around the corner, what are some 546 00:26:43,530 --> 00:26:46,730 immediate takeaways or exercises from your book that our 547 00:26:46,730 --> 00:26:50,370 listeners can perhaps do to enhance their own race 548 00:26:50,370 --> 00:26:55,250 experience? In my opinion, I almost suggest 549 00:26:55,290 --> 00:26:58,130 everybody start with when it comes to mental skills building 550 00:26:58,130 --> 00:27:00,770 or you know, focusing on a mental skill is attention. 551 00:27:01,570 --> 00:27:04,090 That's really the most important thing, in my opinion. 552 00:27:04,090 --> 00:27:08,200 When again, you kind of reflect on long runs or workouts or 553 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,320 racing, it's typically when it gets hard mentally and therefore 554 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,600 physically or you know, vice versa, whichever one kind of 555 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:16,880 came first. It's because you're probably 556 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,440 focusing on like the wrong things or focusing on something 557 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,400 that's not super productive. Again, whether it's this 558 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,320 workout's not going well, I'm not hitting my splits. 559 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,520 And then you're kind of hyper focusing on the fact that your 560 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,620 splits are slow, which means you probably can't run the time you 561 00:27:29,620 --> 00:27:32,540 thought in the race and you start to catastrophize, or it 562 00:27:32,540 --> 00:27:35,260 just feels hard and you have a hard time not thinking about how 563 00:27:35,260 --> 00:27:38,540 hard it feels or the weather's bad, or whatever it is. 564 00:27:38,540 --> 00:27:44,100 It's typically, in my opinion, the performance suffers maybe 565 00:27:44,100 --> 00:27:48,510 most or at least the biggest kind of, I don't know, quick 566 00:27:48,510 --> 00:27:51,190 saying to get stuck into is to not be able to control like what 567 00:27:51,190 --> 00:27:53,070 you're focusing on or where you're putting your attention. 568 00:27:53,070 --> 00:27:55,630 So that's there is a whole chapter on that and there's some 569 00:27:55,630 --> 00:27:58,430 exercises and then even just honestly probably Google 570 00:27:58,430 --> 00:28:01,630 searching, you know, attentional control, mental skills for 571 00:28:01,630 --> 00:28:03,590 psychology, that kind of thing will will bring up some 572 00:28:03,590 --> 00:28:05,630 exercises. But just getting in, that's what 573 00:28:05,630 --> 00:28:07,190 mindfulness and and meditation is. 574 00:28:07,190 --> 00:28:09,390 It's getting better at controlling your attention. 575 00:28:09,750 --> 00:28:12,750 So that's where I would almost suggest anybody start is just 576 00:28:12,750 --> 00:28:15,110 focusing on that and getting really good at noticing when 577 00:28:15,110 --> 00:28:17,710 your attention's on something that's not helpful or productive 578 00:28:17,710 --> 00:28:19,910 and then and getting really good at putting it back on like where 579 00:28:19,910 --> 00:28:23,230 it needs to be. In your opinion, what do you 580 00:28:23,310 --> 00:28:26,750 feel like your attention should be focused on? 581 00:28:26,750 --> 00:28:29,470 Should it be? I mean, obviously it should be 582 00:28:29,470 --> 00:28:32,750 on the race, but should we constantly be thinking, OK, how 583 00:28:32,750 --> 00:28:36,390 am I holding my body? Or is it a certain mantra? 584 00:28:36,390 --> 00:28:39,110 Or what are some things that we should pay attention? 585 00:28:39,110 --> 00:28:42,220 I mean, I'm sorry, focus on, yeah, that's a good question And 586 00:28:42,220 --> 00:28:45,180 it and it is really individual, which is again why I think it's 587 00:28:45,180 --> 00:28:46,820 like maybe the best place to start. 588 00:28:46,820 --> 00:28:49,980 It really depends on the kind of the person and with some 589 00:28:49,980 --> 00:28:52,940 reflection and like thinking back to really great workouts 590 00:28:52,940 --> 00:28:55,860 and great races, you can kind of determine you know maybe what 591 00:28:55,860 --> 00:28:58,460 what was best for you and what to what you just described. 592 00:28:59,300 --> 00:29:01,940 Some people prefer more of an external focus or maybe they're, 593 00:29:02,820 --> 00:29:05,950 you know, zoning out looking ahead of them. 594 00:29:05,950 --> 00:29:08,030 Whether it's like, you know, running a workout with somebody, 595 00:29:08,030 --> 00:29:10,310 I'm just going to sit behind you and like focus on your back. 596 00:29:10,310 --> 00:29:12,910 Or maybe it's focusing on like your form and your breathing. 597 00:29:13,110 --> 00:29:15,390 Some people like to be more internal or maybe they're 598 00:29:15,390 --> 00:29:18,910 repeating a mantra or have some athletes who will, like count, 599 00:29:18,910 --> 00:29:20,710 you know, while they're doing intervals, that kind of thing. 600 00:29:20,990 --> 00:29:23,590 So it really depends on the person and kind of what their 601 00:29:23,590 --> 00:29:27,310 preference is. But and then also can vary where 602 00:29:27,310 --> 00:29:29,390 someone gets stuck, whether someone's getting stuck 603 00:29:29,390 --> 00:29:32,510 internally with like the negative thoughts or you know, 604 00:29:32,510 --> 00:29:34,710 the negative self talk, or whether someone's getting stuck 605 00:29:34,710 --> 00:29:36,830 on hearing splits that aren't what they want to hear. 606 00:29:37,470 --> 00:29:38,950 All of it really depends on the person. 607 00:29:38,950 --> 00:29:41,870 And when you can kind of learn that information about yourself 608 00:29:41,870 --> 00:29:44,990 and have that self-awareness, you can kind of cater your own 609 00:29:44,990 --> 00:29:47,870 strategies to what you need. I love it. 610 00:29:48,270 --> 00:29:52,550 All right. So perhaps can you share some 611 00:29:52,550 --> 00:29:55,830 real life examples of your own athletes who've applied 612 00:29:55,830 --> 00:30:00,350 principles from your strategies under your book and enhance 613 00:30:00,350 --> 00:30:04,180 their experience? Yeah, I mean, I would, I would 614 00:30:04,260 --> 00:30:06,220 go back to attentional control. I think is where I've seen 615 00:30:06,220 --> 00:30:08,700 people make the quickest progress is recognizing, you 616 00:30:08,700 --> 00:30:12,980 know, I have some athletes who have had maybe struggled with 617 00:30:12,980 --> 00:30:16,660 getting stuck again with that like negative self talk or, you 618 00:30:16,660 --> 00:30:18,940 know, start to have negative thoughts in a race and then just 619 00:30:18,940 --> 00:30:21,660 kind of spiral from there and can't pull their self out of it 620 00:30:21,660 --> 00:30:23,460 or can't turn their attention away from that. 621 00:30:23,460 --> 00:30:27,060 So, you know, maybe we've implemented like a mindfulness 622 00:30:27,060 --> 00:30:29,500 practice where a couple times a week in the mornings, they're 623 00:30:29,500 --> 00:30:33,520 spending, you know, 1520 minutes working on mindfulness, which 624 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,560 again, there's there's such a misconception that mindfulness 625 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:41,000 meditation is like the intention being to sit with no thoughts 626 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,720 and to be able to kind of sustain this like Zen like 627 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:45,160 state. And that's not actually true. 628 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,280 Like what the intention of it is to focus on something. 629 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,400 Usually it's breathing or usually maybe you're listening 630 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,200 to some kind of dialogue on a recording or something. 631 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,120 And the intention is to notice when you go from focus on your 632 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,670 breathing to like, oh, shoot, I need to go to the grocery store 633 00:30:58,670 --> 00:31:00,630 later, later. And that's like okay, You got 634 00:31:00,630 --> 00:31:02,310 distracted and now you're noticing that. 635 00:31:02,310 --> 00:31:04,470 And I'll come back to like, focus on your breathing. 636 00:31:05,190 --> 00:31:07,310 That's what the intention is. And I think that's a really 637 00:31:07,310 --> 00:31:10,150 great place to start because if you can get good at that, you 638 00:31:10,150 --> 00:31:14,350 can get better in a race of thinking about keeping your your 639 00:31:14,350 --> 00:31:16,350 forearm smooth. You know, you're just kind of 640 00:31:16,350 --> 00:31:19,150 zoning out in the state and then you're maybe get distracted by 641 00:31:19,150 --> 00:31:23,400 shoot that split was too slow and then okay, you noticed it. 642 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,560 It's information, but bring your attention back to where it needs 643 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,360 to be. So that's where I've seen people 644 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,000 making the quickest, most tangible progress is just 645 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,360 implementing some kind of intentional practice, you know, 646 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,880 maybe outside of running, and then taking that into workouts 647 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:36,600 and long runs and kind of just getting better at that. 648 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,320 What are some other things that you believe are crucial for 649 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,200 marathoners that they do while they run a race? 650 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:56,720 If they've really trained hard and want to do well, I I think 651 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,240 belief, you know, I kind of use that word over confidence, even 652 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:01,560 though I think confidence is in the book. 653 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,240 But just you know, you have to believe you can do the thing 654 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,320 that you're trying to do. That's almost just like a 655 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,400 requirement and there's a lot of, you know, different. 656 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:11,640 One of the things that I also suggest, I guess the two 657 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,280 different things I start with are the attentional control and 658 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,650 then and then also having like a confidence or a belief journal. 659 00:32:18,690 --> 00:32:22,050 And it's kind of similar to gratitude journaling where you 660 00:32:22,050 --> 00:32:23,850 know you're kind of maybe throughout the day or throughout 661 00:32:23,850 --> 00:32:26,650 a week. You know the point of a 662 00:32:26,650 --> 00:32:28,810 gratitude journal is maybe writing down things that you're 663 00:32:28,810 --> 00:32:31,130 really grateful for. And the the purpose is, number 664 00:32:31,130 --> 00:32:32,890 1, to just see all these great things. 665 00:32:32,890 --> 00:32:35,570 But also because you know you're going to do this exercise, 666 00:32:35,570 --> 00:32:37,570 you're like looking for things that you're grateful for. 667 00:32:37,930 --> 00:32:40,770 And similarly, when I suggest like a confidence or a belief 668 00:32:40,770 --> 00:32:42,730 journal, it's like, you know, maybe throughout the week you're 669 00:32:42,730 --> 00:32:46,250 kind of recording things that you know, depositing little 670 00:32:46,250 --> 00:32:49,730 facts of why you can, you know, run this 4 hour marathon or 671 00:32:49,730 --> 00:32:52,610 whatever it is. And the point is, number one, I 672 00:32:52,610 --> 00:32:54,570 do that. I keep a journal and sometimes 673 00:32:54,570 --> 00:32:56,890 when I go to races and I get really nervous right before, 674 00:32:57,410 --> 00:33:00,610 it's really nice to have this log. 675 00:33:00,610 --> 00:33:03,330 Almost of all these reasons why actually I'm really prepared for 676 00:33:03,330 --> 00:33:04,650 this. I know my brain's trying to tell 677 00:33:04,650 --> 00:33:08,090 me I'm not or I can't do it. But if I look back, I can see 678 00:33:08,450 --> 00:33:10,770 all these things that happened, You know, whether it was I 679 00:33:10,770 --> 00:33:14,120 crushed this long run or I really was working on hydrating 680 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:15,080 better throughout the day or what. 681 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,120 Whatever it is, you know, you kind of have these real facts 682 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,000 about why this thing's possible. But then like I said, if you're, 683 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:22,920 you know, doing this on a consistent basis, you're 684 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,960 constantly looking for reasons to believe in your goal rather 685 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,120 than letting yourself kind of fall the other direction of 686 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,400 maybe not believing that. I love this. 687 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,520 And with fall marathons literally being right around the 688 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,480 corner for weeks, how? Late. 689 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,120 It's too late. I know with marathon training 690 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,320 you can't train for four weeks and do well. 691 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:48,640 But how much time does one need to really get to a point where 692 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,400 they do believe in themselves? Because I I know from my own 693 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,120 experience that's a very tough one. 694 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,160 I don't believe in myself until I've seen some workouts that 695 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,320 make me believe that. I don't believe in the whole 696 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,120 fake until you make it, because you know you can't, in my mind, 697 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,160 do that. But how much time is too much or 698 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,960 too, I mean, too little time to train your brain. 699 00:34:08,770 --> 00:34:09,730 Yeah. I don't think there's too 700 00:34:09,730 --> 00:34:11,570 little. I mean it's it is similar in 701 00:34:11,570 --> 00:34:14,850 that, you know, building anything into becoming more of a 702 00:34:14,850 --> 00:34:16,650 habit takes time. You know, if you're trying to 703 00:34:16,650 --> 00:34:19,250 replace an old thought pattern, that's maybe your habit. 704 00:34:19,530 --> 00:34:22,489 It takes time and practice to make that new, you know, more 705 00:34:22,489 --> 00:34:26,090 productive mental approach be the default. 706 00:34:26,090 --> 00:34:29,730 But you can still just with some intention, still see an impact. 707 00:34:29,730 --> 00:34:30,969 You can still see an effect. There's. 708 00:34:30,969 --> 00:34:33,400 I don't think there's any such thing is too late. 709 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,520 Obviously the the more you do it, the better you're going to 710 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,920 get at it, but even just having you know some time and awareness 711 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,239 over these things before a race I think is is helpful and can be 712 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,159 beneficial. OK, great. 713 00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:47,320 So we do have enough time if we want to talk to you before our 714 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,120 fall races, winter races and everything. 715 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,880 So maybe you can hop into your business a little bit, tell us 716 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,600 what you do and what happens when a new athlete comes to you, 717 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,560 how you assess them and then kind of where it goes from 718 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,020 there. Yeah, so I I coach, but I also 719 00:35:02,020 --> 00:35:05,060 do, you know, mental performance consulting with athletes where 720 00:35:05,060 --> 00:35:07,980 we work, you know, pretty much entirely on mental preparation 721 00:35:07,980 --> 00:35:10,980 for for races or competitions. And sometimes someone comes to 722 00:35:10,980 --> 00:35:13,300 me with a specific race coming up that they want to work on. 723 00:35:13,300 --> 00:35:15,260 Or sometimes it's just, you know, at the beginning of a 724 00:35:15,260 --> 00:35:17,340 season or even after an offseason, something that 725 00:35:17,340 --> 00:35:19,780 they've recognized and they need improvement. 726 00:35:19,780 --> 00:35:24,180 And I kind of think of my job or my role similar to like APTI 727 00:35:24,180 --> 00:35:26,740 almost call it like APT for the brain in the sense that you 728 00:35:26,740 --> 00:35:30,420 might, you know, athlete might come to me and say the issue is 729 00:35:31,020 --> 00:35:34,740 my confidence or the issue is I fall apart at this point in a 730 00:35:34,740 --> 00:35:37,780 race or whatever the problem is. And then we can kind of identify 731 00:35:37,780 --> 00:35:39,980 well maybe what's the source of that or where is that coming 732 00:35:39,980 --> 00:35:41,700 from. And then here's some, you know, 733 00:35:41,700 --> 00:35:45,420 exercises and skill like tools we might implement to maybe 734 00:35:45,420 --> 00:35:48,180 build up that muscle that's that's that mental muscle or 735 00:35:48,180 --> 00:35:50,700 that, you know, area that's weak that's kind of causing that 736 00:35:50,700 --> 00:35:53,090 breakdown. So typically, you know, I 737 00:35:53,090 --> 00:35:55,610 shouldn't ideally have to work with someone for too long. 738 00:35:55,610 --> 00:35:57,810 It's just a matter of, you know, kind of identifying maybe where 739 00:35:57,810 --> 00:36:01,410 they can get stronger or grow. And then I'm a big fan of like 740 00:36:01,410 --> 00:36:05,010 tangible, real exercises and and tools to take into training and 741 00:36:05,010 --> 00:36:08,090 kind of build again this new thought pattern or this new way 742 00:36:08,090 --> 00:36:10,410 of thinking about things that then kind of becomes the habit. 743 00:36:11,850 --> 00:36:14,130 So yeah, very individual just depends on kind of what the 744 00:36:14,130 --> 00:36:16,690 person's challenge is and then, you know, we can kind of 745 00:36:16,690 --> 00:36:18,930 identify what the mental skill is that might be most like 746 00:36:18,930 --> 00:36:20,330 appropriate for them to focus on. 747 00:36:21,330 --> 00:36:24,050 And then they get exercises that they can do during their runs, 748 00:36:24,050 --> 00:36:26,850 not during their runs. And just something that they can 749 00:36:26,850 --> 00:36:28,490 implement with their training to help them. 750 00:36:28,890 --> 00:36:30,610 Yeah, exactly. Perfect. 751 00:36:30,650 --> 00:36:34,090 I love this. Can you let us know how we can 752 00:36:34,090 --> 00:36:37,170 find you online and get in touch with you as well? 753 00:36:37,570 --> 00:36:39,890 Yeah, yeah. My practice is called a strive 754 00:36:39,890 --> 00:36:43,690 STIRVE mental performance and it's at strive 755 00:36:43,690 --> 00:36:46,810 mentalperformance.com and there's a contact e-mail form on 756 00:36:46,810 --> 00:36:49,490 there and yeah, happy to help people any way I can. 757 00:36:50,500 --> 00:36:51,780 Perfect, Adi. Thank you so much. 758 00:36:51,780 --> 00:36:55,820 And one last tip for our new runners that are looking to do 759 00:36:55,820 --> 00:36:59,580 their first marathon. Well, gosh, I would say, I mean, 760 00:36:59,580 --> 00:37:01,900 I think with running, especially anytime you're thinking of a new 761 00:37:01,900 --> 00:37:04,940 goal like that is like find someone else that's that's done. 762 00:37:04,980 --> 00:37:06,940 The thing. I think mentorship is is really 763 00:37:06,940 --> 00:37:09,780 awesome and people in the sport are really generous. 764 00:37:09,780 --> 00:37:12,300 And I found that even when I moved up to Ultras and had no 765 00:37:12,300 --> 00:37:15,020 idea what I was doing or how to train for it or how to go that 766 00:37:15,020 --> 00:37:16,540 long. You know, just having somebody 767 00:37:17,260 --> 00:37:19,340 kind of show me the ropes or give me some advice or go for 768 00:37:19,340 --> 00:37:21,260 runs with me was was really great. 769 00:37:21,260 --> 00:37:26,540 So yeah, and and take advantage of the community because I think 770 00:37:26,540 --> 00:37:28,340 people are really generous and helpful. 771 00:37:29,100 --> 00:37:30,780 Perfect, Addy. Thank you so much. 772 00:37:31,060 --> 00:37:31,620 Yeah. Thank you. 773 00:37:35,380 --> 00:37:38,060 Thank you Addy so much for coming on and speaking with me. 774 00:37:38,100 --> 00:37:42,100 It was very interesting to hear your view on the mental game 775 00:37:42,100 --> 00:37:45,260 when it comes to running and I so appreciate your time. 776 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,440 So thank you. Hopefully people find that 777 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,400 interesting and can give us their feedback. 778 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:53,520 Always like feedback? Absolutely. 779 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,720 And we'll link Addy's book in the show notes, of course. 780 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,440 Anything planned for next week? Not yet, but working on it all 781 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:01,480 right. So TuneIn next week anyway, even 782 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:02,720 though we don't know what's coming on yet. 783 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,880 And with that? Have a good week of running. 784 00:38:10,730 --> 00:38:13,210 Thanks for tuning in. For more information and 785 00:38:13,210 --> 00:38:15,130 marathon running news, please head to 786 00:38:15,130 --> 00:38:20,450 www.marathonrunningpodcast.com and we'll be back next week.