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You're listening to episode 191 
of the Marathon Running Podcast.

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In this episode, we're going to 
talk about the 8020 method with 

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Matt Fitzgerald. 
This is the. 

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Marathon Running Podcast by 
Letty and Ryan from We Got The 

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Runs. 
Join us in our running community

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for weekly content that is 
motivational, educational and 

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inspirational, and that the 
Marathon Running Podcast take 

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you from the starting line to 
the finish line and beyond. 

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Aloha Runners and welcome to 
episode 191. 

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My name is Letty. 
My name is Ryan. 

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And we are the host of the 
marathon running podcast Aloha, 

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You guys from the beautiful 
island of Honolulu, where we 

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have been lucky enough to spend 
the last week and 1/2 or so just

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enjoying, relaxing and of course
getting some runs in. 

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Honolulu is actually a city, and
Oahu is the island. 

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I knew that I just misspoke. 
So how are your New Year's 

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resolutions going, lady? 
They're going. 

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Well, I mean, I've been putting 
in the speed work like I've told

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myself, and I've also cleaned up
my eating. 

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Not that it was bad, but I've 
been paying more attention to 

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really fueling my running. 
And how excited you about having

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our guests today? 
So excited. 

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Like almost Alex Hutchinson 
interview excited type of 

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excitement. 
Because you were jumping up and 

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down when you were talking about
it earlier. 

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Yes, I love Matt Fitzgerald's 
books and I never thought he 

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would come on my podcast. 
And sometimes you know the 

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lesson, and this is all you have
to do is ask. 

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That's a very good actually 
advice for people. 

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Letty do you use the 8020 
method? 

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You know I do, Ryan. 
I've been using this method for 

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a couple of years now. 
I feel like we're not spring 

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chicken anymore, obviously. 
Speak for yourself. 

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The first couple years after the
babies, I started running more 

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often, trying to qualify for 
Boston. 

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And during that time I got 
injured a lot, plantar fasciitis

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and then probably some overused 
stuff with my ankle. 

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And then I heard about this 
method and I really slowed down.

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I was always running in this 
Gray zone. 

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They call it where, you know, my
when I run in the seven minute 

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pace, that's fast for me. 
But then there's really no use 

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of running in the eights if I'm 
just running. 

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So now my easy runs are in the 9
minutes and up and I haven't 

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been injured. 
I feel fresh all the time. 

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So yeah, I'm a big advocate for 
it. 

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It makes a lot of sense too, I 
think, and seems to be proven 

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correct. 
Yeah, and if the Kenyans can do 

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it right, if they have their 
fast pace and if they run easy, 

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then you know, they also go to 
their training camps and they 

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sleep a lot. 
And we as normal runners, we 

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don't do that. 
We run around and about with our

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days and families and do all 
these important things. 

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So we never really get that rest
that they do. 

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And I'm not comparing us to 
them. 

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I'm just saying it makes sense 
to have some really hard 

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workouts and then give your body
rest but still be able to put 

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the mileage in. 
Yeah, and honestly, I foresee 

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like multiple potential benefits
being that, like when I always 

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run, you always kind of mildly 
want to push yourself and you 

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end up, like you say, kind of in
a Gray zone where you're not 

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really improving your speed by 
running faster, but you're also 

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setting yourself up potentially 
for injury. 

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Also, when you get to look at a 
run and see that you can run the

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run slower, it might actually 
motivate you to go do it more, 

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and you might actually be more 
inclined to actually finish it 

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because it's not as difficult. 
You know you can. 

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Oh, I can take my time a little 
bit in, in which case maybe 

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you're more successful at even 
completing your goals. 

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No, 100%. 
And that's how my daily runs 

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are. 
I only have two days right now 

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where I'm running faster and I 
love the other days because I 

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just kind of go easy. 
I don't look at my watch. 

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Doesn't matter. 
I'm just getting miles in. 

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So it's it's kind of beautiful. 
So what did you talk about with 

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Matt? 
Yeah, so with him I just talked 

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about understanding the basics 
and fundamental principles of 

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this 8020 method. 
We talked about. 

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How this method is has has a 
scientific foundation. 

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How it's been embraced by elite 
runners, How it's adaptable. 

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To all. 
Levels of runners, how there's 

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different distances and training
plans when it comes to that and 

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a lot of other things, you know,
balancing intensity and long 

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term benefits. 
So really interesting stuff. 

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You wanna get into it? 
Sure. 

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So without any further ado, I'm 
now gonna play my conversation 

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with Matt Fitzgerald. 
All right. 

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So I'm on here with Matt 
Fitzgerald. 

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Matt, thank you so much for 
joining me. 

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Thank you for having me. 
Yeah, no, I'm a pleasure as 

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mine. 
I'm absolutely excited to have 

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you on. 
Super exciting, but for the 

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listeners that, well, haven't 
heard of you or have read your 

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books but don't really know 
about you, perhaps you can 

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introduce yourself and just tell
them who you are, what you do, 

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and how you got into what you're
doing now. 

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Right on. 
Yeah. 

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So I have been a runner most of 
my life. 

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I started running when I was 11 
years old, influenced my by my 

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father who who ran marathons 
back when I was growing up. 

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I've also been a writer most of 
my life or grew up, you know, 

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wanting to write professionally.
And I also got that from from my

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dad. 
My dad was a published novelist 

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from the time I could first 
read. 

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So I had the advantage of 
growing up knowing that you 

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could do that, you know, like 
writing could be your job. 

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And I fell in love with writing 
when I was about nine years old.

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And I'm just one of those people
who always knew what he wanted 

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to do. 
And I didn't really anticipate 

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kind of writing about running. 
But that's the way it worked 

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out. 
I was just able to marry those 

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two passions. 
I got into coaching and also 

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there's some entrepreneurship 
which was very accidental. 

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You know I I have a couple of 
you know, endurance sports 

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related businesses now, one of 
which is called Dream Run Camp, 

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which is the is newer. 
It's only been around a few 

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months, so I moved to Flagstaff 
last year to open up Dream Run 

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camp, which maybe we can get 
into later. 

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Would love that. 
Absolutely. 

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And you're talking about 
authoring books, so how many 

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books have you published at this
point? 

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Probably around 20. 
You know more than that. 

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I mean it sort of depends how 
you count cause like you know I 

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have some that I've co-authored,
I have you know I've won that at

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or I've had a couple actually 
that are like you know, 

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journals. 
So you know it's mostly like 

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blank pages, but you know 
technically I'm the author of 

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those. 
So if you count everything, it's

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more than 30 now. 
That's amazing. 

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What an accomplishment. 
And from the running coaching 

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books, which ones are the best 
sellers? 

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You know, to this day I I still 
believe that my book, Racing 

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Weight, if you count the two 
editions, there was a first and 

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a second editions, you know, 
that came out when, you know, at

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the height of like, you know, 
all these diet crazes. 

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And I was trying to kind of 
write an antidote because I saw 

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all these runners, you know, 
going for the South Beach Diet 

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or whatever, I'm like don't do 
that. 

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And so, you know, there's 
there's some luck involved, you 

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know, in writing a book that 
ends up being successful and 

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like there's a timing element. 
So that one was just beautifully

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timed. 
I I wouldn't say it's my best 

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work but still I think that's my
best seller And then how bad do 

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you want it is more I'm I'm 
very, very interested in the 

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psychology of of endurance 
sports and that one's focused on

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you know the mind and that one 
has sold pretty well And then 

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8020 running like that's my top 
selling kind of nuts and bolts 

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training guide for runners. 
Yeah, amazing. 

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How bad do you want it? 
Is one of the books I absolutely

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love too. 
But today we're going to hop 

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into 8020 and 8020. 
For the listeners that don't 

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know is the principle of running
80% of your runs at a lower pace

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versus 20% as a hard run. 
So maybe you can explain that 

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better. 
The fundamental principles. 

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Of 8020 for those that are new 
to the concept and how that 

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balance of running 80% lower? 
And 20% higher. 

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Contributes to an improved 
performance. 

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Right on. 
You know, the thing that I, I 

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always stress when I'm asked 
that question is the origin of 

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this way of training. 
Because, you know, there are 

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training methods that just sort 
of like were invented by a 

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person you know or like you 
know, were deduced by a 

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scientist. 
And that's not where the 8020 

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method came from. 
It originated in some 

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observational studies done by an
exercise physiologist named 

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Stephen Siler where he just he 
quantified the training of elite

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endurance athletes and not just 
runners, but cross country 

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skiers, rowers, swimmers. 
And he just wanted to like 

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understand like what what the 
best endurance athletes in the 

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world are actually doing. 
And you know, he noticed like 

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this startling consistency 
because you know, cross country 

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skiers and swimmers don't really
talk and yet, you know, and then

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you know, you know, you know, 
runners in Japan don't 

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necessarily talk to triathletes 
in Brazil. 

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And yet they were all training 
very, very similarly and they 

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were doing, you know, 80, about 
80% of their training at low 

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intensity. 
And if if you rewind some 

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decades, elite endurance 
athletes weren't training that 

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way. 
So there was this, this kind of 

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like trial and error process 
that led to a convergence like 

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all over the world, you know, at
the elite level across endurance

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disciplines, which you know is 
pretty strong and evident that 

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athletes kind of figured out you
know, the best way to train. 

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And then since you know the 
obvious next question is, well, 

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does this also work for everyday
you know endurance athletes who 

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you know aren't genetic lottery 
winners and aren't, you know, 

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training 30 hours a week And it 
appears that it is actually, you

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know that what what works best 
for the the top athletes also 

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works best. 
And the other thing I should 

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offer works best for everyday 
athletes. 

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And the other thing I should 
stress is that while you know 

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the 8020 method is practiced 
almost universally at the elite 

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level, the average, you know, 
recreational, you know, the 

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average competitive recreational
runner only is more like a 5050 

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intensity balance. 
So you know, unless you kind of 

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like as as a recreation runner, 
unless you make a conscious 

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effort to train the way the pros
do you, you probably aren't 

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going to. 
Yeah, no, absolutely. 

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Because, you know, we don't have
the leisure of having the 

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ability to rest as much as they 
do, right? 

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They do their hard runs and then
they lay around and they eat and

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then they maybe do a second run 
at a slower pace and all that 

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stuff. 
And for us, we have work, we 

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have kids we have. 
Probably a lot less. 

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Sleep in our lives than they do.
So that said, perhaps we can 

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kind of talk about whether this 
slower running. 

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Is there a rule of thumb to it? 
Does every person or should 

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every person add 3 minutes to 
their slow runs or a certain 

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percentage or how does that 
work? 

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What's the best approach for? 
That. 

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Yes. 
So what what appears to really 

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matter is this certain threshold
of intensity known as the first 

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ventilatory threshold or VT1. 
And you know, if you train by 

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heart rate for the typical 
athlete it's that fall somewhere

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around 77 to 81% of your maximum
heart rate. 

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And I should say your true 
maximum heart rate, not that two

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220 minus your age formula that 
is wildly accurate for 

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inaccurate for almost everyone. 
So. 

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So that's like that's where 
exercise scientists now place 

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kind of the the boundary between
low and moderate intensity for 

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exercise. 
And and the reason it's it 

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matters is that if you're just 
below that threshold, it's the 

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effort is you're still 
exercising but it's very gentle 

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on your nervous system, your 
autonomic nervous system. 

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And so you can handle a lot of 
it and you can recover very 

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quickly from it. 
And the reason it's considered a

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threshold is that if you go from
just below it to just above it, 

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there's a big, there's a jump in
how stressful it is. 

228
00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,800
It's not that it's bad to be of 
above it, you just don't want to

229
00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:01,520
be above it when you don't 
intend to be. 

230
00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,800
You know when you're intending 
to be doing low intensity 

231
00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,600
exercise, you need to be below 
it because you'll just generate,

232
00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:11,560
You'll get almost all the 
benefit and you'll generate a 

233
00:13:11,560 --> 00:13:14,800
lot less fatigue so your body 
can absorb it better. 

234
00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:18,920
And then when it's time you know
to do the faster running your 

235
00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,760
your body's more ready for it, 
you get more out of it and the 

236
00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:23,320
whole thing hangs together 
nicely. 

237
00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:27,360
So what, you know, most runners 
are doing is when they intend to

238
00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:31,200
go out and do a low intensity 
run, they're actually above that

239
00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,920
first ventilatory threshold, not
a lot, but you know, a little 

240
00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,200
bit matters. 
And so they're really not 

241
00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,920
getting, you know, as much 
benefit as they could be if they

242
00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,680
slow down just a little bit. 
OK. 

243
00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:48,160
So 77 to 80% of the Max 
ventilatory. 

244
00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,680
Threshold. 
And for those of us who just 

245
00:13:51,680 --> 00:13:54,320
have a Garmin or we have a 
Garmin that probably doesn't 

246
00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,720
work, is not accurate, I'm gonna
ask you the question, is there 

247
00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:01,040
something like a run that is too
slow? 

248
00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:05,720
For this. 
In theory, yes. 

249
00:14:06,680 --> 00:14:11,840
In practice, I've never seen it.
It's it's just not something 

250
00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:16,080
that people do. 
People don't accidentally go too

251
00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,120
slow. 
So, you know, there's not a ton 

252
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,000
of science and it's probably a 
little bit squishy anyway. 

253
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,520
But you know if the question is 
like you know how slow is too 

254
00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:28,800
slow, a good rule of thumb is 
that you need to be. 

255
00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,240
Unless you're like an absolute 
beginner, like just getting up 

256
00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:37,080
off the couch, you need to be 
above 60% of your maximum heart 

257
00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,920
rate to get a meaningful, you 
know, stimulus from from the run

258
00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:44,760
you know. 
So if your you know maximum 

259
00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:49,320
heart rate is 200 beats per 
minute, then you would need to 

260
00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:53,840
be at or above 120 beats per 
minute for it to kind of count 

261
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:56,560
as exercise. 
OK. 

262
00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,840
Yeah, I like that because I mean
even if you're just moving, 

263
00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:02,840
you're probably going to be able
to hit that pace. 

264
00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,600
That is enough to have some kind
of benefit and you're you're 

265
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:08,480
mentioning that there are 
benefits. 

266
00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,800
So what are the benefits that we
get when we don't run above the 

267
00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,240
7780? 
Percent of our hurry. 

268
00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,720
Yeah, I mean you know the, the, 
the core benefits of, you know, 

269
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:22,760
low intensity exercise are, you 
know, it is, you know, you do 

270
00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:26,280
get aerobic conditioning. 
So and it strengthens your 

271
00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,360
heart, it strengthens your 
circulatory system. 

272
00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:34,280
You know, the, you know, the 
whole, you know, machinery of 

273
00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,760
aerobic metabolism inside muscle
cells is strengthened by low 

274
00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:42,600
intensity exercise. 
You know, and there's, you know 

275
00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:44,640
some nuance to it. 
You know, when you're at low 

276
00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:48,920
intensity you're you're burning 
mostly fat, so your body gets 

277
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,600
better at burning fat, which is 
really beneficial, just helps 

278
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,600
you increase endurance. 
So those are like the core 

279
00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:57,640
benefits of exercising at low 
intensity. 

280
00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,200
But you know one of the benefits
is that because it's so gentle, 

281
00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,480
you can do a lot of it and it 
becomes the gift that keeps on 

282
00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:06,840
giving. 
So if you take advantage of 

283
00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:11,080
that, like you know I will 
exercise more than than the 

284
00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:15,200
benefits pile on and you start 
to really gain some some 

285
00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,800
endurance benefits like fatigue 
resistance, but those that sort 

286
00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:21,960
of second level of benefits only
kicks in. 

287
00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,520
So once you start boosting the 
volume, like if you make those 

288
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,400
low intensity runs longer or you
increase your frequency of 

289
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,040
running, you know, more runs per
week, those types of things. 

290
00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,560
Yeah, that sounds awesome. 
And on the flip side, what 

291
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,560
happens if you are above that 
threshold? 

292
00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:43,240
Besides the obvious, probably 
getting some kind of injury 

293
00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,400
because of lack of fatigue, what
can happen if you are running 

294
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:47,920
your runs? 
Just too fast. 

295
00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:50,360
Yeah. 
And that that's mainly it. 

296
00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,920
You know, again it's like it's 
not as if it's bad for you, you 

297
00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:57,040
know, it's just it is more 
intense. 

298
00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:02,560
And so you know what appears to 
happen is that when, when, when 

299
00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,640
you know you, you take the 
typical runner who's spending 

300
00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:10,640
about 50% of their total weekly 
running time above that 

301
00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:14,400
threshold, not way above it, but
sort of in the kind of no man's 

302
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,520
land, you know that that grey 
zone like not not easy, not 

303
00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,880
hard. 
You you just end up generating 

304
00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,880
fatigue that your body's just 
never, it never has a chance to 

305
00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,320
fully process because the next 
time you run, you're right above

306
00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,400
that threshold again. 
So you're just the analogy I 

307
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:36,840
like to make is to like chronic 
mild sleep deprivation. 

308
00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,680
So you know, if you need 8 hours
of sleep a night and you get 7, 

309
00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,320
you can function, and you might 
not. 

310
00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,920
You might not have any idea how 
much better you would feel and 

311
00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:49,840
function unless you start 
getting that extra hour. 

312
00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,040
You know what I mean. 
And so with runners who are kind

313
00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,640
of stuck in that moderate 
intensity rut, it's very 

314
00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:58,960
similar. 
You know, they do get fitter, 

315
00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,320
but they have no idea if they 
just, you know, slow down their 

316
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,720
easy runs, how much better they 
would feel and how much you know

317
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:09,600
more quickly their body would be
able to adapt to the training 

318
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,960
because they're not just 
carrying around unresolved 

319
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:17,840
fatigue all the time. 
Yeah, and from your experience 

320
00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:21,360
of, you know, kind of coaching 
people, telling them how to do 

321
00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:24,640
this, can you maybe give us some
examples of how you've seen 

322
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:28,560
people improve, how long of a 
time it took for them to improve

323
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,160
and ultimately what the 
improvements were time wise? 

324
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,160
Yes. 
So I mean, you know, to to be 

325
00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,760
perfectly honest, it it, it is 
initially a difficult transition

326
00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,680
for a lot of runners to make 
because you know, you're 

327
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,240
breaking an ingrained habit and 
habit change of any kind. 

328
00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:49,400
It's hard and it just, you know,
it, it feels weird to a lot of 

329
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,240
runners to to, you know, hold 
themselves back. 

330
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,760
So there can be, you know, 
difficulty with buy in or you 

331
00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,960
know, runners sometimes feel 
uncomfortable. 

332
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,160
You know, it's like wow, you 
know, I just, you know, I just 

333
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,600
feel kind of unnatural running 
that slow. 

334
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,440
But you know, if you get, you 
know, I I just tell I tell 

335
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,360
runners like, you know, give it 
a chance. 

336
00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:14,560
You know you will come up the 
other side of it. 

337
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,200
So you know, when runners do 
give it a chance, the first 

338
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:23,280
benefit that they start noticing
is is they just like, you know, 

339
00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:28,080
there was, you know, often, like
there's this little subtle 

340
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,280
strain in your, in your quote, 
UN quote, easy runs that aren't 

341
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,520
all that easy, that you didn't 
really notice was there until 

342
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:36,920
you slow down a bit. 
And so that's the first thing 

343
00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:40,320
runners often notice is like, oh
wow, this actually feels easy 

344
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:41,920
now. 
Like it's, you know, it's 

345
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:46,640
comfortable and and and and and 
and then often because you're 

346
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,280
not taxing yourself as much in 
these easy, these easy runs, 

347
00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,880
when you run again, you feel 
fresher, like you feel better 

348
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,720
from the start. 
So just a perceptual change, 

349
00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:00,480
it's like you know this is more 
comfortable than it used to be 

350
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,280
and then you know maybe starting
to look forward to the runs a 

351
00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,920
little more, dreading them a 
little less, you know actually 

352
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,560
feeling better at the end of the
run than he did at the start. 

353
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,120
So that that sort of gets the 
hooks in a lot of runners 

354
00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:16,120
because it just it's it's fairly
immediate and they're feeling 

355
00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:19,920
better in terms of like the 
performance benefits those take 

356
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:24,480
longer though I will say this 
something I guess I would say 

357
00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,040
the the next. 
Benefit that kicks in is 

358
00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:32,320
performing better in like, you 
know your key workout because 

359
00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,840
again, you know the 8020 rule is
not the 100 zero rule. 

360
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,520
You know, 20% of the time you're
supposed to be running hard. 

361
00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,480
And if you're really, truly 
taking it easy, when you're 

362
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,200
supposed to be taking it easy, 
you're fresher for the hard runs

363
00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,200
and so you feel better in those 
runs. 

364
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,520
You perform better. 
You start crushing workouts that

365
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,040
you just you used to just 
survive, you know what I mean? 

366
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,800
And so that also it's 
reinforcing. 

367
00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:57,920
You know when runners see that 
they're like I like this, you 

368
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,000
know I I like crushing my 
interval workouts and then you 

369
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,560
know it's then you you get to 
racing which gets the final and 

370
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,840
that's when when athletes 
perform better in races then 

371
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,040
they're really committed. 
You know, there's no going back 

372
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,600
at that point, you know, and 
that can take, I mean it can 

373
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:19,240
happen in as little as six weeks
or so, you know, 6-8 weeks where

374
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,920
you're actually, you know, 
you're starting to lower your 

375
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,960
PRS and and that type of thing 
and and some of the, you know, 

376
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,000
sometimes the improvement is 
pretty dramatic. 

377
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,320
I've just got a chance recently 
to see some unpublished research

378
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,040
by some folks who who make a 
wearable where they've been 

379
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,920
tracking intensity balance with,
you know, people who got out of 

380
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,240
that moderate intensity rut and 
became more disciplined and and 

381
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,280
following in 8020 intensity 
balance. 

382
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:51,200
Like, you know, like I think one
of them like 11 to 14% 

383
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,360
improvement in performance, 
which is gigantic, you know, for

384
00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:58,120
an athlete who's already been 
racing for for a while. 

385
00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:01,080
So yeah, true breakthroughs can 
happen when when you commit. 

386
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:03,720
That's so amazing and thank. 
You for sharing. 

387
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:08,080
That I know that it's kind of 
goes against what we think with 

388
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:09,960
everything, right? 
Because if you're for example 

389
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,480
trying to learn how to play the 
piano, you don't play the piano 

390
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,480
slower than on your performance 
day. 

391
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:17,760
So logically to us it doesn't 
make sense. 

392
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,360
But. 
Besides that, why do you think 

393
00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:22,720
it's so hard? 
For a lot of runners. 

394
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:29,760
To slow down when when they run.
I think I I honestly think the 

395
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,680
number I mean you you definitely
highlighted one of the reasons 

396
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:37,040
that it's counter intuitive. 
There's this famous quote from 

397
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:41,800
the runner Emil Zatopek who was 
like a multiple Olympic champion

398
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,200
back in the 1940s and 1950s 
before the 8020 method was 

399
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,120
discovered. 
And he said like why would I 

400
00:22:48,120 --> 00:22:51,320
want to train slow when I'm 
trying to race fast And and so 

401
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,720
you know that's the mindset for 
a lot of runners and so that 

402
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,040
that's one big reason you know 
the counter intuitiveness. 

403
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,600
But also you know there's 
there's research showing that if

404
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:05,840
you if you just tell someone to 
do unstructured exercise and to 

405
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,360
choose their own intensity, 
there's this this automatic 

406
00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:11,600
tendency to choose a moderate 
intensity. 

407
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,600
And you know my theory, it's 
speculative. 

408
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,240
My theory is because there's 
there's two competing instincts 

409
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,400
that people take into 
unstructured exercise. 

410
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,680
One is the instinct to get it 
over with, right. 

411
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,120
So you know it's like we're like
we're task oriented. 

412
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,680
So you know, if you have a a 
pile of, you know, wood that 

413
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,080
needs to be chopped, you don't 
want to spend all day chopping 

414
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:37,400
it. 
You want to get the wood chops. 

415
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,480
You can shower and have a nice 
cup of hot chocolate so that you

416
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,840
know that instinct you get it 
over with makes you want to go 

417
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,280
fast. 
But we also have an ingrained 

418
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,280
instinct to not want to suffer 
unnecessarily. 

419
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,800
And of course the faster you 
run, the more it hurts. 

420
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,240
So that instinct makes you want 
to go slower, right? 

421
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,080
And so you end up having these 
two competing instincts, get it 

422
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:05,560
over with, which makes you makes
you go more intensely, don't 

423
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:07,360
suffer, which makes you go less 
intensely. 

424
00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:09,520
When you compromise between 
those instincts without really 

425
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:10,920
thinking about it, where do you 
end up? 

426
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,360
Moderate intensity. 
And I really think that that's 

427
00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:17,200
the number one that's kind of 
the foundation of why pretty 

428
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,520
much everyone does this. 
Yeah, that's interesting. 

429
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:21,680
I didn't. 
I didn't realize it. 

430
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,160
But it does make sense. 
You know, the task we got to get

431
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,520
it done. 
At the same time, we don't want 

432
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,960
to suffer too much. 
And then of course there's 

433
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,400
Strava, right? 
Social media, the game of 

434
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,160
comparison, comparing ourselves 
to other people even though they

435
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,080
have completely different lives.
But we want to show up and show 

436
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:39,480
a. 
Faster pace because. 

437
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,960
We don't want anyone to think 
that we are slow people because 

438
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,560
somehow now we think that's 
something bad. 

439
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,240
So that's really, really 
unfortunate. 

440
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:53,000
So yeah, so with that, how do 
people that are interested in 

441
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,880
approaching this 8020 method get
started? 

442
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,440
Is there any kind of correlation
with that in the heart rates? 

443
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,600
Method as well. 
Yeah. 

444
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:08,320
So you know that's step number 
one is to like you, you need to 

445
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:13,040
figure out where that threshold 
is the the Vt one, you know that

446
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,000
you know you can't really just 
guess it. 

447
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,240
It requires some form of of 
testing. 

448
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,480
You know, you know the gold 
standard is to go into an 

449
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,240
exercise lab, do like a lactate 
threshold or VO2 Max test where 

450
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:26,720
you're, you know, you're 
breathing into one of those 

451
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,720
masks and they can tell you, oh,
your Vt one is exactly here. 

452
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:32,480
Here's what heart rate you're 
at. 

453
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,400
Here's what speed you're at. 
But there are other ways. 

454
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,760
There's sort of like, you know, 
rough and ready ways to find it.

455
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:43,080
One is you know pretty reliably.
If you're like you know between 

456
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:47,320
75 and 80% of your maximum heart
rate, you're probably on the 

457
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:51,120
safe side of the Vt one. 
So you need to know your two 

458
00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:53,560
maximal heart rate. 
You know the one-size-fits-all 

459
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:59,320
formulas are they don't fit all 
so often like you can just like 

460
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,600
if you've been running and 
you've been doing like some 

461
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,880
harder workouts, you can just 
look back at your data and see 

462
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,160
like OK, what's the highest 
heart rate my device has ever 

463
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,480
recorded. 
And that's probably pretty close

464
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:15,120
to your maximum heart rate and 
as you would just take 75 to 80%

465
00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:21,040
of that if you're if you're 
doing, you know if you if you 

466
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:29,400
prefer to train by pace the the 
VT1 corresponds to about 65% of 

467
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,960
your maximal aerobic speed. 
So that's 65% of the highest 

468
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,600
speed that you could hold for 
six to seven minutes. 

469
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,280
So you can do you know some kind
of like time trial where you 

470
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,480
just go out and run as fast as 
you, you know cover as much 

471
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,240
distance as you can in 6 
minutes, calculate the velocity,

472
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,400
you know the average velocity 
you sustained for that six 

473
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:55,200
minute test and then multiply 
that by 0.65 and that will give 

474
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,960
you a number that's pretty close
to your your Vt one for for 

475
00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:01,520
pace. 
If you if you're someone who 

476
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:06,680
prefers to train by pace, you 
can also do it by power and and 

477
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,640
so yeah, whatever your 
preferred, you know, metric is 

478
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,600
for monitoring intensity, you 
know you can you can you know 

479
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,280
dial in your, you know your 
zones you know using that 

480
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,240
metric. 
OK, perfect. 

481
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,040
And then what I was gonna ask 
you about the heart rate. 

482
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,360
Also, you've heard about the 
heart rate method, how running 

483
00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:29,920
at a certain heart rate makes 
you eventually go faster because

484
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,520
your heart rate will adjust. 
Can you maybe go into that a 

485
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,880
little bit? 
Sure thing. 

486
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,480
Yeah. 
I mean, yeah, I mean your, your 

487
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:44,920
heart adapts to running more 
than just about any other organ 

488
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,000
of your body. 
And not not just the heart, but 

489
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,160
the, you know, the entire cardio
respiratory system. 

490
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,520
It's all all linked together. 
So, you know, if you go from, 

491
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:59,280
you know, being a couch potato 
to to being a runner, your heart

492
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,480
muscle will actually grow. 
You know, just like, you know, 

493
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,240
when your biceps grow, when you 
do a bunch of bunch of curls, it

494
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:11,480
gets more powerful. 
It has like higher contractile 

495
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:16,920
capacity and so and then like 
your your blood will change. 

496
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:18,880
Also your blood volume 
increases. 

497
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,280
You get more red blood cells. 
So every time your heart 

498
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,800
contracts, you're sending more 
of the good stuff, oxygen and 

499
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,960
other stuff to your you know, to
to your muscle, your working 

500
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,200
muscles. 
So what happens over time is 

501
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:37,000
that you'll notice you're you 
know, as you get fitter through 

502
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:41,280
running, your resting heart rate
will decrease because your heart

503
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,320
is stronger. 
It just doesn't have to beat as 

504
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,360
often because it beats more more
powerfully. 

505
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:51,960
And you'll also notice that, 
excuse me, at any given pace of 

506
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,080
running, your heart rate is 
lower and at any given heart 

507
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,680
rate you're running faster. 
That also has to do with like 

508
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:04,280
changes in efficiency. 
So you know, you're monitoring 

509
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:10,200
heart rate is a, you know, just 
a good way to track, you know, 

510
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,360
these, you know, beneficial 
adaptations to the running 

511
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,960
you're doing. 
Yeah, That's great. 

512
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:17,720
That's great. 
So yeah, I guess. 

513
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,920
Get a good heart. 
Rate monitor and get going with 

514
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,240
this just in order to help 
yourself. 

515
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:27,040
Any other tips for runners and 
how and why they should approach

516
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:28,640
this method and give it a 
chance? 

517
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:31,360
Yeah. 
So one other thing I would 

518
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,840
recommend is like, yeah, you 
have to find where your 

519
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:38,720
threshold is, you know, you have
to know, you know what is low 

520
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,960
intensity for me versus moderate
intensity. 

521
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,760
And the other thing you have, 
you need to do is plan. 

522
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,040
So like, OK, you got your zones 
dialed in, you want to give this

523
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:52,960
8020 thing a chance. 
You're still not that likely to 

524
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,600
actually train with an 8020 
intensity balance unless you 

525
00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:02,280
have a plan that is 8020, right?
And so that just means you know,

526
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,040
it doesn't have to be, you know,
nothing explodes if it's not 

527
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,760
exactly 8020. 
You know, like it's approximate.

528
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:10,880
It's close enough, but it does 
require some planning. 

529
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,880
It's usually a matter of like 
you set aside maybe depending on

530
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:20,280
how many times per week you run.
But let's say you run six days 

531
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,600
per week, so you have one day 
off and you run six days. 

532
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:28,840
So if if two of those days you 
are doing intervals or tempo 

533
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,680
runs like you're you're, you 
know, planning to work at higher

534
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:36,400
intensities and the other four 
runs are planned to be entirely 

535
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,360
at low intensity, maybe 
including a long run at low 

536
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,600
intensity. 
If you, you know, plan a week in

537
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,760
that way. 
So like you know, one out of 

538
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,720
every three runs is focused on 
moderate or high intensity. 

539
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,640
You'll probably end up pretty 
close to an 8020 intensity 

540
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,160
balance as long as you're 
disciplined about, you know, 

541
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,080
staying at low intensity when 
you intend to. 

542
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,440
Yeah, and a lot of the times 
it's your body too that tells 

543
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,080
you, hey, I'm tired, I'm feeling
tired. 

544
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,160
And maybe it's a good idea to 
just kind of go with with your 

545
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:10,240
feeling and not looking at the 
watch so much just because you 

546
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,400
know, if you're fatigued then 
you probably need that extra 

547
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,200
time for recovery. 
Yes. 

548
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,440
I mean, you know, initially it's
hard for people to trust their 

549
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,480
perceptions, you know, because 
that's what got them into this 

550
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,720
mess in this first place, Leo, I
call it intensity blindness 

551
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,560
where it's like coach, I swear 
I'm at low intensity. 

552
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,720
I'm like, I'm sorry, the data 
doesn't lie, you're not really 

553
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,240
at low intensity. 
But once you've you know that's 

554
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,800
a good point you raised because 
obviously no matter whether you 

555
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:40,440
were trained by pace or heart 
rate or power, you always feel 

556
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,240
what you're doing, right. 
So once you find like you know 

557
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,480
that that threshold and you know
and and and you go out and you 

558
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,600
run at a heart rate that is 
below the threshold, well you 

559
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,520
now you know what that feels 
like, right? 

560
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,080
And then you know going forward 
you can rely on how you feel, 

561
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,280
whereas previously before you 
did that calibration, you 

562
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:02,960
couldn't rely on on how you 
feel. 

563
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,880
But you know, it's nice just to 
be able to trust how you feel 

564
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:08,920
and and let it decide as you 
suggested. 

565
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:10,640
Yeah, I know. 
Exactly. 

566
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,520
So, yeah, Thank you, Matt, so 
much for coming on and hopefully

567
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,960
we'll get you back on another 
time. 

568
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,640
About the book, how bad do you 
want it? 

569
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:24,360
No pressure. 
It's fine, happy to come back. 

570
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,320
And yeah, I'm always working on 
new stuff so love talking about 

571
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,560
it. 
I appreciate the forum. 

572
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:35,800
Thank you, Matt for. 
Speaking with me. 

573
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,080
And telling us about all this 
awesome stuff. 

574
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,480
We really appreciate when 
experts come on like Matt to 

575
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,640
give us their thoughts and all 
the information they've 

576
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,480
gathered. 
It helps everyone else. 

577
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,800
All the runners become faster or
better runners. 

578
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,520
And that's ultimately what the? 
Whole point of this. 

579
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,320
Podcast is so that's it for 
today you guys. 

580
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,040
We're going to make this a 
little bit shorter of an outro 

581
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:04,600
we've got. 24 hours left. 
On Oahu in Honolulu, and we're 

582
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,480
going to enjoy that. 
Ryan, what do you feel like we 

583
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,600
should be doing today? 
I think we should go to hike 

584
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:09,960
because you don't have a lot of 
those in Florida. 

585
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,600
And then maybe end at the beach 
and watch the sunset. 

586
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:14,000
Sounds good. 
All right. 

587
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,640
So stay tuned. 
If you want to see that, you can

588
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,920
see it on Instagram because I'm 
going to commit, I'm going to 

589
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,080
post a video about it. 
If you don't see a video, you 

590
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:24,120
forgot. 
I did. 

591
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,360
I did, yeah. 
So with that. 

592
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:34,520
Have a great week of running. 
Thanks for tuning in. 

593
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,640
For more information Ant 
Marathon Running news, please 

594
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:41,520
head to www.marathonrunning. 
Podcast.com. 

595
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:43,320
And we'll be back next week.