1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,440 You're listening to episode 206 of the Marathon Running Podcast. 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:05,680 In this episode, we're going to talk about The Wall. 3 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:16,320 This is the Marathon Running podcast by Letty and Ryan from 4 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,080 We Got The Runs. Join us in our running community 5 00:00:19,080 --> 00:00:22,760 for weekly content that is motivational, educational and 6 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:25,080 inspirational. And let the Marathon Running 7 00:00:25,080 --> 00:00:27,960 podcast take you from the starting line to the finish line 8 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:35,120 and beyond. Hey hey, runners, and welcome to 9 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:37,120 episode 206. My name is Letty. 10 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:39,760 My name is Ryan. And we are back on for another 11 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:43,200 episode, our weekly episodes of all things running. 12 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:45,360 Ryan, how are you doing today? I'm doing well. 13 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:47,240 How about you? I'm doing great too. 14 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,120 Still recovering well. What am I? 15 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:52,760 Who am I kidding? I'm not recovering from Boston. 16 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:54,880 I've been recovered. I didn't race Boston. 17 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,240 But you know, I wanted to tell you, I've been feeling a little 18 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:02,360 bit of the Blues lately. I call them the marathon Blues. 19 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:06,080 And I think a lot of listeners can maybe relate to this. 20 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:09,240 You know, you have a race on the calendar and you pack all your 21 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,280 energy and all your extra time into that marathon. 22 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,560 Then you have that marathon and regardless if it goes well or 23 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,520 not, suddenly you have that emptiness. 24 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:22,080 It's almost like, you know you're mourning something that 25 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,160 is now no longer there. The post marathon please. 26 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,320 Yes, yes. And we've previously had an 27 00:01:27,320 --> 00:01:31,440 episode on that before too. And last week we also went live 28 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,760 with coach Erica White and we talked about Marathon Blues 29 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,920 during that life and also hosted A giveaway. 30 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,240 So if you do follow us on Instagram or if you don't follow 31 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:45,280 us on Instagram, we are at running podcast and look at my 32 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,760 probably last few reels and you'll see the giveaway. 33 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,400 We're giving away 512 packs. 12 pack of what? 34 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,440 Beer no. 12 packs of you can gel. 35 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:57,560 Gels, OK. Yes, yes, yes. 36 00:01:57,600 --> 00:01:59,760 And there's still time. And there is still time. 37 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:01,800 Yeah, we're not going to close that for another couple of 38 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:03,920 weeks. So if you're interested in 39 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:07,920 trying out you can who has been our sponsor, then there you go. 40 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,760 So letty, you've been dabbling with YouTube, How's that going 41 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,880 for you? Yeah, so you know, I'm, I'm 42 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,520 joking that we have two subscribers and they are my 43 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,800 mother and my brother. But yeah, I've been putting up 44 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,280 some videos. My first vlog was of my 45 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,240 marathon, my Boston Marathon getaway. 46 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,560 That's the title of it. And I think I've received 100 47 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:33,080 views, which is I know it's not a lot at all, but it is a lot 48 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,120 for me. So I'm excited about that. 49 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:38,960 I'm learning kind of like in the beginning stages of the podcast 50 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:40,920 where you learn how to audio, edit and all that stuff. 51 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:43,560 Video is a whole new level. It's super interesting and I 52 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:45,680 think I'm going to continue doing it. 53 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:47,320 Yeah, I think you did a good job, actually. 54 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:51,120 I really like it because I think when I always listen to or when 55 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:56,640 we do these like race recaps, I try to get you to paint a 56 00:02:56,640 --> 00:02:59,200 picture with words so that people know what you're talking 57 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:01,600 about. But the video is a very cool 58 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,520 adjunct to the podcast because you can actually see some of the 59 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:06,440 things you talked about. Thank you Ryan. 60 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:08,280 You're biased though, So. I am. 61 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,400 I guess you and I have talked about it before, whether or not 62 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,520 we want to put our you our podcast episodes on YouTube. 63 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,000 And I think I've decided not to do that because in the end those 64 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,320 are just videos that show us talking to each other. 65 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,480 I kind of enjoyed the other creative videos a lot more like 66 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,600 the Boston Getaway or recently I went and got my VO2 Max checked 67 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:29,800 and that's going to be on a video. 68 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,720 So you know, it's it's different and I'm kind of glad we don't 69 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,120 have that many subscribers. So we don't get a lot of thumbs 70 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,640 down quite yet until I Polish up my skills and it gets better 71 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:41,240 again, kind of like with the podcast. 72 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:46,440 So if you haven't seen our or my Boston Marathon getaway yet, 73 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,000 then I invite you to do it. Please be kind with your 74 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,160 comments because I'm learning and you can find me on YouTube 75 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,000 at Running Podcast. So you literally just type the 76 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,080 AT Symbol and Running podcast into the search bar and you'll 77 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,840 be able to find us another comment speaking about our race 78 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:04,560 recaps. Ryan, you were congratulating 79 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,600 people and inviting them to get coffee during our last episode, 80 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,720 and I got at least four comments, which I shared with 81 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:15,360 you that said Ryan doesn't know what he's talking about. 82 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:19,440 These episodes are not too long. People enjoy hearing about the 83 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:21,920 whole weekend. Yeah, you're right. 84 00:04:21,959 --> 00:04:24,040 I was voted wrong. Yes. 85 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,520 And last but not least, I want to mention one more thing. 86 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,600 As we're doing housekeeping here, I want to mention 87 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:31,920 something about the advertisements that you guys 88 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,160 hear on whatever platform you listen to this podcast. 89 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,440 Someone was saying that there were Tinder ads and McDonald's 90 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,400 ads. We don't have any control of the 91 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,840 ads that are being played except for the ones that are read by 92 00:04:43,840 --> 00:04:46,320 us. So I just thought that was kind 93 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,360 of funny. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of funny 94 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,440 if there's like a McDonald's ad in the middle of your, like, 95 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:54,480 nutrition podcast. Yeah, and I also think it's kind 96 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:56,440 of funny to have Tinder, right? Maybe. 97 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:57,720 Maybe we're on to something here. 98 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,440 Maybe we can start an app that's like Tinder for runners or 99 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:02,040 something like that. Yeah, that's it. 100 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,120 That's not, I mean, I don't think that's abnormal. 101 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,960 But yeah, it would be nice if when you in your Tinder search 102 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,840 you have to add runner. But then do runners really want 103 00:05:10,840 --> 00:05:13,440 to be with runners? And you guys can let us know, 104 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:17,200 because in my book, I'm kind of glad that I run more than you 105 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,480 because I get the Sundays right. Especially if you have kids. 106 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,280 You have to take turns. I get the Sunday mornings and I 107 00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:25,920 get to do the races, whereas you have a little bit of a different 108 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:27,840 interest if you did everything together. 109 00:05:27,840 --> 00:05:29,360 I guess you just have to get a babysitter. 110 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:31,640 I don't know. I I like the idea of shared 111 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,760 interests, but it it all depends on the situation and the and 112 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,440 whatever relationship you have. Because sometimes, even though 113 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:41,720 they might have not have similar interests that you have, if you 114 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,400 have different interests, it gives you time for yourself, 115 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:47,800 which is good. Or even if you want to do things 116 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:51,360 together, still it brings different activities or 117 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,720 experiences that you might not have otherwise thought of if you 118 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:56,720 didn't have that other person. So it's like, for instance, if 119 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,360 they have completely different interests than you. 120 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,400 You both get to share your different interests, but you 121 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,760 learn more about other things that you may not have explored. 122 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:09,120 Yeah, and I think being a not single, but being a solo runner 123 00:06:09,280 --> 00:06:12,040 in a family also more open minded to meeting more people. 124 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,640 Whereas if you're showing up as a couple, that's kind of how 125 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:16,800 that is. It's just a different experience 126 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:18,840 and I think you can appreciate both of them. 127 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,360 So let's get back on topic. What are we talking about today? 128 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:25,480 So today we're going to talk about the wall, which kind of, I 129 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:26,840 guess I'm going to take another tangent. 130 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:31,120 The wall, it, it makes me think it's an album by Radiohead. 131 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,680 But then I looked it up and it's not, it's the Bends, but there 132 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,520 is a, there is a song, it's called Climbing Up the Wall. 133 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,880 For for all of you guys that appreciate Radiohead, it's just, 134 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:43,360 I don't know. And the song plays every time I 135 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,240 see the wall, the song starts playing in my head. 136 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:46,640 Yeah. So we're going to talk about the 137 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,000 wall and we are going to talk about Doctor Patrick Davitt. 138 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,800 He's a PhD and he has been on the podcast before. 139 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,240 He's super knowledgeable about anything that has to do with 140 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,520 physiological and psychological factors when it comes to 141 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:01,720 running. We're first going to talk about 142 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,960 a definition of what it is to hit the wall during a marathon. 143 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,560 We're going to talk about glycogen depletion, endurance, 144 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,560 performance, performance optimization. 145 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:14,840 Let's see what else do we talk about? 146 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:20,280 Guidance on maximizing energy reserves and the whole 147 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,200 psychological aspects when it comes to hitting that wall. 148 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,360 So it's interesting stuff. I always find this stuff because 149 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:28,880 it's not in my area of expertise. 150 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,840 I always find that stuff complicated and I listen to it 151 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,920 multiple times because you know, that's how I get it to finally 152 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,040 sieve into this brain of mine. So with that. 153 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:40,400 Let's hit the wall. All right. 154 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:42,280 Without any further ado right now, I'm gonna play our 155 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,840 conversation with Doctor Patrick Davitt. 156 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:49,320 All right. So we're back on here with 157 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,360 Doctor Patrick Davitt. Thank you so much for coming 158 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,800 back on. Yeah, absolutely. 159 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:56,800 It's an honor and a privilege to be here. 160 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,760 Yes, and we are very lucky to have you here for this topic. 161 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,920 The topic of hitting the wall, the big wall that every 162 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,080 marathoner comes to eventually. Hopefully me. 163 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,840 I mean, hopefully not. But most of us will meet this 164 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,160 wall at some point in our running journey. 165 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:16,480 So I guess we could start by talking a little bit about what 166 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:20,760 the wall is, the context of it, and how it affects every runner 167 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,360 during the race. Yeah. 168 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,000 So it's a great question. It's funny when you just said 169 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,800 that, that you you said hopefully every runner gets to 170 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,919 meet this wall. Makes me think of it's an Irish 171 00:08:32,919 --> 00:08:37,120 proverb, I believe that says the built, the bigger you build your 172 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,720 wall, the stronger we become, right. 173 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,320 So this idea of individuals who've who've hit this wall, and 174 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,440 that's what we're going to define a second in order to be 175 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,160 able to overcome it, in order to be able to persist, in order to 176 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:53,000 be able to know what it's like, We can explain it as well as we 177 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,000 possibly can, but no one's going to know it until they actually 178 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:58,200 hit it. And to get into that, when we 179 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:03,320 say hitting the wall, the one thing that it's not for most 180 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:08,200 people who do hit it is right. It's a proverbial wall. 181 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,800 And for some people we say proverbial right of this 182 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:16,080 limitation, it's it's not a brick wall that all of a sudden 183 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,840 slams into you and you literally have to stop running, right? 184 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:21,920 You collapse and I think of that, right? 185 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:23,640 Hitting the wall, like, I'm going to hit a wall and I'm 186 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:25,320 going to literally get to this, right? 187 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,200 You go into Las Vegas and you get off the plane and you're hit 188 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,880 with a wall of heat, right? It's not as though you run into 189 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:35,880 this wall of exhaustion and it just shuts your body down. 190 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:41,080 For a few individuals, things like that can occur, right? 191 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,440 There was a Gatorade commercial many years ago where you see and 192 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:46,720 there are videos on the Internet where you can see individuals 193 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,320 hitting this wall. And at the end of the day, the 194 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,160 hitting of the wall is a decrease in performance. 195 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:54,280 And when we say decrease in performance, if you're a 196 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,840 marathon runner, that's a decrease in your pace. 197 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:00,880 But what we want to get straight is there's almost no one 198 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:05,120 listening that when we when you hit a wall, we can get into the 199 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,280 distances and and and obviously a lot other things related to 200 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,240 it. When you hit that wall and let's 201 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:16,840 say it's anywhere from 1618 to mile 22, it's not going to be, 202 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,840 oh, I'm running a 7 minute pace, I'm running a 6 minute pace and 203 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,040 now I go down to nothing like I have to stop. 204 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,920 So that almost doesn't occur. Yeah, I like that you kind of, 205 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,240 you know, went back on that for the definition because yes, we 206 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,560 called the wall because we're imagining something like that. 207 00:10:33,560 --> 00:10:38,040 But in reality, most of the time it's just a drastic slowdown of 208 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:42,280 our paces as runners. And even, you know, we might 209 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,120 feel like we can still do it, but how Our legs are not doing 210 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:48,880 it. It's not always also the mental 211 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,520 part of it, but I guess we'll help all of all of that detailed 212 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,400 stuff in a second. Before we do, though, maybe you 213 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,240 can tell us about some factors that predispose some marathon 214 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,880 runners to hitting the wall while others don't. 215 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:07,640 Yeah. So the idea of all of this is 216 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,880 going to stem from a slowing of your pace. 217 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:16,000 At the end of the day, your pace is going to be, you know, we say 218 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,160 speed, we'll say velocity, right, how many minutes per mile 219 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:22,360 and you can then say mph or KMH at the end of the day. 220 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,360 That's ultimately, especially if you're in a race, that's what 221 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,400 everyone's going to really gravitate to like that's the be 222 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:32,040 all end all number. If performance is your goal on 223 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:36,560 race day, how fast did you run it is that main metric. 224 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:41,320 With that, in order to maintain a certain pace you have to move 225 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,120 your limbs. When we say your limbs, we're 226 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,560 talking about your your, your skeletal system, which are your 227 00:11:46,560 --> 00:11:50,200 bones, and in order to move them we have to contract our muscles. 228 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:53,000 In order to contract our muscles, there's a bunch of 229 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,080 different things that go on, but at the simplistic level, a 230 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,840 majority of what we're going to get into and talk about is just 231 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:02,200 energy. We need to provide energy in the 232 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,680 form of ATP, adenosine triphosphate, right? 233 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,440 We store energy in the molecules in the phosphates. 234 00:12:09,560 --> 00:12:12,160 When you hear ATP, it's the energy currency of the body, 235 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:13,240 right? You learn that in like fifth 236 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,800 grade bio. And we need to continually 237 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:21,120 generate this energy in order to supply the energy to the muscle 238 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,840 to do the contractions. So if we say what are the 239 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,600 prerequisites to hitting the wall, the number one 240 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:32,520 prerequisite is not having the energy to be able to supply the 241 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:37,280 muscle with the energy demands. It needs to maintain that work. 242 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,000 And when we say the work maintain that pace, right? 243 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,960 If you're running, we can use absolute terms, right? 244 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:48,440 If we say, hey, a 7 minute mile, a 6 minute mile, we can talk 245 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:50,760 about that. And you typically will need a 246 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:53,560 certain amount of energy for a certain amount of body weight in 247 00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:57,720 order to, you know, contract the muscle and carry yourself and 248 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:01,000 push off the ground at a 6 minute or seven minute pace. 249 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:06,360 If you can't generate the energy fast enough for the muscle to do 250 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,560 that, then the muscle can't do it and you have to slow down. 251 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,760 So the main prerequisite is going to be available energy. 252 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,360 When we say available energy, a majority of that energy related 253 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:19,280 to hitting the wall. And this is where we can get 254 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,360 into because the marathon's an interesting distance slash, 255 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:27,800 time, duration that's going to relate to glucose in the form or 256 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,280 coming from muscle glycogen. So we just had a lot of fancy 257 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:35,560 things to individuals, but in order for us to run, we need to 258 00:13:35,560 --> 00:13:37,240 contract our muscles. In order to contract the 259 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:38,720 muscles, your muscles need energy. 260 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,480 Where do we get most of that energy in a marathon? 261 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,840 If someone's actually running it like above a a moderate 262 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,400 intensity, a lot of that energy is going to come from glucose, 263 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,360 which is a carbohydrate stored inside the muscle and we store 264 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:57,320 it as glycogen. So if you run out of that or you 265 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,720 get low on that, that's a main prerequisite. 266 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,360 That's the one number one that most people will talk about. 267 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,240 It's not the only one. And that's a main prerequisite 268 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:11,240 of once that energy supply gets low, then you're only able to 269 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:15,120 supply so much energy to the muscle without glycogen per unit 270 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,600 of time and it just can't keep up. 271 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,120 Think of like a train, right. And the idea is like you know 272 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:23,720 the person, if it was a coal powered train, someone sitting 273 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,120 in the the, the, the front, you know, engine Bay and they're 274 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,480 just shoveling coal into the furnace. 275 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,400 Well, if you want the engine to burn so hot, you have to shovel 276 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,520 X amount of coal per minute into it. 277 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:38,000 Think of that like glycogen, right? 278 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,520 If you stop that glycogen, well now you have to go to a 279 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,800 different fuel source. And once you start taking 280 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,920 glucose from the blood or maybe even some of the fat that we 281 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,920 store in our muscle, how do we relate to that? 282 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,400 Well, it's just it gives you energy at a slower rate. 283 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:56,920 Well, what does that mean? Imagine you just cut the shovel 284 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:58,800 that you have the size of it in half. 285 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:01,840 Now you have a smaller shovel. So to get the same amount of 286 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,000 coal into that fire, to get the same amount, to generate the 287 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,840 same amount of energy, to give to the muscle to contract and 288 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,440 keep that pace, it's just so much harder. 289 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:16,160 So if you have a smaller energy yield per unit of time, which 290 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:18,360 we're going to get for virtually everything other than the 291 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:20,720 glycogen, it's just going to slow us down. 292 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,480 It's going to make us physically and physiologically slow down. 293 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,560 You just have to slow down so we can get into some of the other 294 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:29,360 prerequisites, but that's like the main one. 295 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:31,920 Yeah. And so I think it's smart if we 296 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,320 stuck to the main one because there's obviously all these 297 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,120 other options. I mean, possibilities that, you 298 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,720 know, you didn't sleep enough or you were sick in the past and 299 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:41,760 all that, sure. But when we are talking 300 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,160 specifically about the usage of this energy, I want to throw a 301 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,480 little side question in there, just mainly because I've learned 302 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,920 so much about heart rate training in the past. 303 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,480 So when we're talking about heart rate and the relationship 304 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,960 to the usage of energy, can you elaborate on what zone would be 305 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:06,720 smartest to run a marathon in in order to not hit the wall or to 306 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,120 avoid hitting the wall as long as possible? 307 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:12,040 Oh, that's a really good question. 308 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,880 So, yeah, so when we say this is where you get into and we've 309 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:19,040 talked before in the past of you know training versus 310 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:24,280 competition. When you look at the percentage 311 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,080 of intensity that you're going to do most of your training runs 312 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:29,760 in is where you get into like Zone 2. 313 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:33,760 And Zone 2 has been blowing up you know in the in the, you know 314 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:38,520 the the Internet space of information from the standpoint 315 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:40,720 of most of those training runs. And we say the Zone 2. 316 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,840 And that's going to be at a, you know typically we'll call that a 317 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,640 low intensity you know and then you get into sort of the Zone 3. 318 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:50,760 And then a lot of times they'll call that this no man's land, 319 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:52,840 right. And then you get into Zone 4 and 320 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:58,640 Zone 5 if you're running the marathon right, the idea will be 321 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,440 it's funny, I haven't actually, I haven't addressed it as much 322 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,960 in relation to zones, more percentage of heart rate Max and 323 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,760 then you can get into aspects of not everyone's Zone 2. 324 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:14,480 Zone 3 is always a percentage. A lot of it's going to be based 325 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,599 on lactate and we can do other measures and things like that. 326 00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:21,200 But a lot of times you're then going to be at a slightly 327 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:25,000 higher, so you would be closer you know in your like high Zone 328 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:30,960 3, Zone 4 things to that nature. Most of like the the research 329 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,160 world is going to reference percentage VO to Max and things 330 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,560 like that and we can we have correlational charts and maybe 331 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:41,080 we can even provide something like that to the viewers of hey, 332 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,720 this percentage heart rate Max is equivalent to this percentage 333 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,400 of VO2 Max which is equivalent to right. 334 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,080 This percentage of heart rate reserve, VO2 reserve and things 335 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,840 like that. Why would someone want to 336 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,080 understand from a heart rate training standpoint, this heart 337 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,800 rate reserve is because it takes into account your resting heart 338 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:00,320 rate. So it's not just what's the 339 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,720 percentage of your Max, but it's also a percentage of your Max 340 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,560 minus your resting heart rate multiplied by the percentage and 341 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:09,000 then we add back in your resting. 342 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:10,960 So we'll call that a heart rate reserve. 343 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:15,680 The idea of all of this, it, it's, it's a hard question to 344 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:17,840 answer. Getting back to it, like what 345 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:22,680 zone do we want to run in? Are you an elite, right? 346 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,520 Then you get into, well, are you an elite marathoner, right. 347 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:27,840 And when we say elite, you can just look at times, right? 348 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:33,480 Are you running like a 2/22/30, right, Sub three and then you 349 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,520 get into OK, are you 3, three and a half, 3 1/2 to 4? 350 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,760 Because those individuals are going to be running that 351 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,080 marathon at a higher percentage heart rate and a lower 352 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,240 percentage heart rate, right? If someone's running the two, 353 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,080 you know, Iliad Kipchoge, if he's running a 2 hour marathon, 354 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:49,480 right? Two O 1, things like that. 355 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:54,120 I mean they're running, they're running extremely, extremely 356 00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:58,200 fast at least in the percentage VO2 Max, they're around like 85 357 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:02,720 sometimes even up to 90% of their VO2 Max, you know and then 358 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,320 heart rate Max is is getting like somewhat close to that, 359 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,120 right. They're running at an extremely 360 00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:11,880 high rate. So I don't know if that answers 361 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:13,400 your question, you're not going to. 362 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:17,040 So actually I I don't necessarily want to answer the 363 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:20,920 question of what zone do you want to run your marathon at, 364 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:25,880 but the general question of if you want to not hit the wall, 365 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:30,000 what zone should you run at? Well, you can run a marathon in 366 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,360 zone 2. It depend like do you want to 367 00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:34,600 just complete the marathon? Do you want to qualify for 368 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:36,160 Boston? Are you running in Boston? 369 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:37,680 Right. Does that make sense? 370 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:39,640 Yeah. No, I guess I was trying to get 371 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,120 at we could also talk about heart rate percentage. 372 00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:50,840 What heart rate percentage would be ideal to run in where you are 373 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:55,040 fast and efficient yet not burning through your fuel like 374 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,760 crazy so you're gonna eventually hit the wall? 375 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:03,280 Yeah. So from that standpoint, this is 376 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,720 where you get into depending on your training. 377 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:11,160 And how your training has gone, the distances that you've run 378 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:15,680 and you get into nutrition, like how fat adapted are you are you, 379 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,920 you know, did you eat enough to store up enough muscle glycogen, 380 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,560 things like that. You're going to be able to you 381 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:29,400 know bump up into like the highs you'll get into like 75 percent, 382 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:36,440 85 to you know like 80%. It's going to vary a little bit 383 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:43,480 depending again on the like how good the fitness level of the 384 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,680 individual. So it's it's it's, it's kind of 385 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:48,960 a hard question to answer and that's that's literally what a 386 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:50,960 coach is going to do. They're they're going to try and 387 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,520 base everything on and when we can, we can say that percentage 388 00:20:54,720 --> 00:21:00,800 of heart rate Max is relative to you, but the lower that you go, 389 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:05,080 right, that you're, you're going to be not bonk proof, but you're 390 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,680 almost extremely unlikely to hit the wall if you walk a marathon, 391 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:10,840 right? So if you're running in zone 2, 392 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,920 you're almost extremely unlikely to hit a wall, you know, unless 393 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,920 you didn't need anything, right. You still can hit a wall then. 394 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,720 So it's still possible. If you literally just went out 395 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,040 and walked, eventually you will still hit a wall, right? 396 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:26,640 Because you do need to replenish. 397 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,920 Yeah. So it's it's to ask that is an 398 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:35,160 interesting question right, because the concept of hitting 399 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,680 the wall is very different when you read the literature even 400 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:40,560 when you talk to people. But then you read the literature 401 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:42,640 on and there's a lot of literature on it like you know 402 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,040 mechanisms of fatigue and endurance exercise. 403 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:46,680 It's in textbooks and things like that. 404 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,280 It's it's kind of all over the place. 405 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,640 A majority of it relates to energy availability, but then it 406 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:59,000 also besides energy availability of do you have enough glycogen 407 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,640 being fed to the muscle? Are you maintaining blood 408 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,480 glucose? That blood glucose primarily is 409 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,440 from the brain. If the brain senses that your 410 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:10,160 energy levels are low, it's it's going the proverbial wall. 411 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:14,640 Is your brain saying I'm stopping you from running? 412 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,400 Yeah, the brain is a powerful friend or not friend. 413 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,400 And I guess, you know, so much of the marathon also is mental 414 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,920 and and how we train it. But now I want to kind of go 415 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,320 back to the fact that we've mentioned earlier, you hit the 416 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:35,000 wall at around 16 through 22. There's a lot of training plans 417 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,800 out there that do not prescribe more than 16 miles to Hanson, 418 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,400 you know, 1618 miles. So in essence, it's hard for 419 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,960 some runners to even ever experience this type of feeling, 420 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,160 especially given that we run our long runs also a little bit 421 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,080 slower. So what would be the best thing 422 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:58,280 that a runner could do in order to kind of practice or, you 423 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:02,480 know, experience with that a little bit experiment with that. 424 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,600 Yeah, yeah. I mean this is where you then 425 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,120 get AT like what was one of the reasons why a lot of marathon 426 00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:14,400 training had a random 20 mile run and part of that is to just 427 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:19,480 have there's an aspect of the muscles and the in the joints 428 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,200 experiencing 20 miles worth of pounding. 429 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,400 But then a big aspect of it is also like the brain that the 430 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:29,880 brain feels OK and it's not sending up red flags because 431 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,760 it's never experienced the distance even close to that. 432 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,880 One of the ways that you could, one of the ways that you could 433 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:40,040 experiment would be, you know, like back-to-back training where 434 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:44,040 hey, my marathon training plan is saying I shouldn't go more 435 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:48,080 than a 16 mile run. But if you have, like if you 436 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,920 suspect or you've hit in the wall before, you know, maybe you 437 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,600 can do like back-to-back today you do a 10 mile run and like 438 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,200 you know later on in the day and then tomorrow you do another ten 439 00:23:58,200 --> 00:23:59,960 mile run. So now you're getting that 20, 440 00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:02,320 you know, 20 mile. It's really what's really 441 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,840 fascinating is in the ultra world, right. 442 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,720 I've just gotten into more. I'm not as interested in my 443 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:09,480 time. I just want to keep going. 444 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,920 In the ultra world, you eventually get to a point where 445 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,200 they're not interested in distances per SE. 446 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,920 They just want you to go out for three hour runs, six hour runs. 447 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,560 They just want you to get like time on your feet for X amount 448 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:27,320 of of time. So the general standpoint there 449 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,080 would be one if your training plan which you're sticking to 450 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:35,160 and there's plenty that are not getting above 16 that are going 451 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,520 to be OK, you're going to just want to make sure that you cover 452 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,840 all of those other bases, where are you adequately hydrated, 453 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,880 right? Do you have enough fuel stored 454 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,320 as muscle glycogen? Cause all the literature is 455 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,960 gonna show stored glucose in the muscle as muscle glycogen is the 456 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,200 like the number one predictor of hitting the wall. 457 00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,120 OK. So with that being the number 458 00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:01,800 one predictor, perhaps we can talk a little bit about how much 459 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:07,520 your body can store and how how to go about doing that best. 460 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,240 Sure. So we store, we can talk about 461 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,520 grams, we can talk about calories. 462 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:20,200 It it's it's kind of hard to directly relate to, but in 463 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,960 general, right, we store glucose in our liver and we store 464 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,080 glucose in our muscle. The only reason we store it in 465 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,560 our muscle is to once it gets in the muscle, it never leaves. 466 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,800 It's only there to provide energy for us to contract and 467 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,440 move our muscles. So we store about 2000 calories 468 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,320 ish. So many times you'll see reports 469 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,800 of like 1600 to 1800 calories, right? 470 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,400 It can get up to like 2000. You can get a tiny bit more. 471 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:46,960 And again, that's a blanket number. 472 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,480 If you have a runner listening and they're 125 lbs, and you 473 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,600 have another runner listening and they're 250 pounds, £250 474 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,120 individual, especially if they have really thick, big legs, 475 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:00,200 they're going to store way more calories as glycogen than the 476 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,720 individual who weighs 120 lbs or 125 lbs. 477 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:08,400 But the idea of we have approximately, you know, let's 478 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,760 say 15, sixteen 1800 calories, right? 479 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:17,960 Which is then you know, 400 to 500 grams of stored glucose in 480 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:19,600 our muscles. That's like, you know, we say 481 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:26,440 all of our muscles. The idea is you can slightly 482 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,280 bump that up. You get into glycogen like super 483 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,040 compensation, right? You have glycogen depletion. 484 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,680 You know the the old school was, hey, a week before you're going 485 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,240 to do exhaustive exercise to deplete that glycogen because we 486 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:44,160 typically only burn glycogen at we we burn a lot more of it at 487 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,360 higher intensities. You wanted to deplete it and 488 00:26:47,360 --> 00:26:50,280 then you want to like super compensate, eat a big plate of 489 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,520 pasta, rice, potatoes, stuff like that to like 490 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,520 overcompensate. That was more of an old school. 491 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,240 We don't really do, you don't see that as much in the world of 492 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:01,800 sports nutrition. It's more you're going to have 493 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,560 some exhaustive exercises and you can just slowly start 494 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,520 bumping up your carbohydrate like leading up to that event 495 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,720 and you might get upwards of, I mean this is in kilograms, you 496 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:16,280 know, like like 10 kilos, 1010g per kilogram per day, upwards of 497 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,960 like 12 kilograms per kilogram per day if you're following like 498 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:27,480 those glycogen compensation. So to understand we need that 499 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,600 glycogen, we want to go into the event with as much glycogen as 500 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:35,080 possible. And on a lot of our training 501 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,640 runs this is where you then get into the practice and things 502 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:40,400 like that. You're going to have a lot of 503 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,440 random long training runs where you want high glycogen, but 504 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,440 there's a lot of data to support doing some of those, you know, 505 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:52,040 8/10/12 mile runs that aren't at a higher intensity, you know, in 506 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:53,960 more of a glycogen depleted state. 507 00:27:54,880 --> 00:28:02,040 And the reason for that is when you get mile 16, mile 20, that's 508 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,680 essentially when we say 2000 calories worth 15116 hundred 509 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,120 calories worth of glycogen. That glycogen lasts about an 510 00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:12,400 hour and a half to two hours. It's going to last a little bit 511 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,880 longer if you're running a four hour marathon. 512 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,120 So you're running at a light lower intensity. 513 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:22,240 So it's when you start getting into those distances of the 514 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,280 marathon that's when your glycogen is starting to get like 515 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,920 really, really low and that's why we typically hit the wall at 516 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,600 that point. So running starting a race with 517 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,440 low glycogen to begin with is like, you know, that's the faux 518 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,920 Paul like kiss of death of if you really want to try and hit 519 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,360 the wall then go into it. We can talk about being 520 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,240 dehydrated because that's not going to help. 521 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,480 But then go into it in a glycogen depleted, depleted 522 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,080 state and you're much more likely to hit it. 523 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:52,920 OK. And you and I on a previous 524 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:57,240 podcast, we've talked about the fact that if you do have some 525 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,920 runs and they're not super exhausting in the morning, time 526 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,600 to run them without having fueled because you might be able 527 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,720 to teach your body to work being in that state a little bit 528 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,200 better. Yeah. 529 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:16,840 So the idea is by exercising in and it's funny because when you 530 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,400 don't eat in the morning. And I and I just taught about 531 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,680 this today. There's several people. 532 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,960 I just heard someone on a big podcast talk about when you 533 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,240 don't eat in the morning, you're going to be burning through your 534 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,000 muscles. It's like, no, you're not. 535 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,000 If you go 48 hours, then yes, you'll start burning through 536 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,280 your muscles. But then very quickly your body 537 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,680 has like compensatory, like preservative survival mechanisms 538 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,120 that stop you from burning your muscles. 539 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,840 So if you have a 12 hour fast, even if you do intermittent 540 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:50,200 fasting, right, you ate dinner at 5:00 PM six PM and you go out 541 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:54,320 at an 8:00 AM run. If you ate carbohydrates at 5:00 542 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,520 PM the night before, you didn't touch those carbohydrates in 543 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,520 your muscle since you burnt, you put them in there. 544 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,280 It's your liver glycogen that's going to get depleted. 545 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:08,000 So you have the energy to do high intensity exercise. 546 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,960 It's just you only have so much and then when that starts 547 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,520 getting low the the muscle is going to try to pull some of the 548 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,680 glucose from the blood. It's going to start using some 549 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,040 fatty acids. Those are slower and therefore 550 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,160 you have to lower the intensity. So that's an aspect of a wall. 551 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,800 But the second you start pulling it too much from the blood, now 552 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:29,880 you become you can become hypoglycemic. 553 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,640 If the brain senses the blood glucose is too low and it's not 554 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,080 getting enough sugar, well then now that's why you feel really 555 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,760 tired and things like that. So the idea though is by 556 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:44,600 practicing training runs in a fasted state, your muscle still 557 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,320 has glycogen in it. You're going to adapt the muscle 558 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:53,840 as well to to be better equipped to to handle more fat per 559 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,360 minute. So when you do hit a wall, you 560 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,040 don't have to slow down as much. Does that make sense? 561 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,320 Yes, completely. Thank you for for elaborating on 562 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:03,680 that. You have two really two 563 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,040 components. One is the, the, the stored 564 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,080 glucose in the muscle like if you don't want to hit a wall. 565 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,440 And I actually looked up my intensity numbers because 566 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,480 percentage heart rate Max is not my Forte. 567 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:16,760 I do a lot of heart rate reserve and things like that. 568 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:18,960 So if we said what's the, what's the main heart rate percentage 569 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,680 you might want to run, I'd say about 65 to 75% heart rate Max 570 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,200 and you're you should be way less likely to hit that wall, 571 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,280 right? Because if you run at a lower 572 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,120 intensity, you're not. You're not using the muscle 573 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:36,840 glycogen as fast because the most hydrogen is like rocket 574 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:41,920 fuel because it gives you a massive ATP energy yield per 575 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,760 unit of time. If you're running at a 65% heart 576 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:49,160 rate, Max intensity, you don't need to tap through that. 577 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,480 It's going to last a lot longer. You're not going to have these 578 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,000 drastic changes in once you're right. 579 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,400 So you have that try and eat and get the carbs. 580 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,720 Like even someone who's at a low carb individual. 581 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,320 We you're going to want that muscle glycogen stored glucose 582 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,480 as much as you can before you go into an actual marathon. 583 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,880 The other big aspect is the brain, the brain, the brain, 584 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,080 everything. At the end of the day, even the 585 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:20,520 muscle glycogen if you took 1000 runners, we actually ran them. 586 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:22,960 Thought I was reading this paper the other day. 587 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,200 Females tend to hit the wall a lot more than males. 588 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,880 That's a random thought of like thousands of runners. 589 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:31,920 They looked like it was something like 4 million races 590 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:33,640 or something. This one review paper looked at 591 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:38,680 females tend to hit the wall more and non elites tend to hit 592 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,160 the wall a lot more. Again, because the elite 593 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,400 runners, they're dialing everything in so well and 594 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,840 they're maintaining a pace that there's their second-half 595 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,920 marathon is like a slight negative split from their first. 596 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,960 So most of us, if we haven't run a lot of marathons, or if you're 597 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,720 just doing this training run and you haven't run that distance, 598 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,200 you don't really know what pace you can hold for 26.2 miles. 599 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,120 So nothing beats experience. But at the end of the day, 600 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:08,880 everything's going to boil down to the brain. 601 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:14,760 If the brain senses that your energy stores are low, whether 602 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,280 it's blood glucose or muscle, it's going to trigger. 603 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:19,920 They call this the central fatigue. 604 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,400 You know, then there's like a lot of other types of of 605 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,560 theories, but the central fatigue theory states that it's 606 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,160 the brain that essentially the the governor light or the OR the 607 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,560 the fuel light that goes off in your car. 608 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,800 The brain is going to sense that when glycogen gets low and then 609 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:36,480 it's going to force you to slow down. 610 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:41,840 That's one main theory. The other theory is no, there's 611 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,040 actual limitations at the sight of the muscle. 612 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,160 We say there's tons of stuff that we can get into. 613 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,240 It's well, it's not just glycogen like what else is 614 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,880 happening it it's well you you have ATP and then you're 615 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,240 breaking down ATP and then you're generating this, this by 616 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,760 product known as ADP. There's only two phosphates and 617 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,680 the presence of that is going to slow down all these other 618 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:03,760 enzymes, right. You can get very complicated. 619 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,520 There's a lot of things going on from an enzyme transporter, you 620 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,760 know, movement and breakdown standpoint that just gets bound 621 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:16,360 up when you when you lower that. The other fascinating concept is 622 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:20,320 if you took 1000 runners that hit the wall that they you'd 623 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,920 have to ask them did you hit the wall and you look at their pace, 624 00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:26,040 if we then opened up all their muscles and like took muscle 625 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,760 biopsies, they're not out of glycogen, they still have 626 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,199 glycogen, right. I've been part of muscle biopsy 627 00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:34,800 studies. We never run out of virtually 628 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,360 anything. So that's where this central 629 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,840 governor theory came from. Because we can hook your muscles 630 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,480 up to electrical stimulators and we can get you to contract your 631 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,679 muscles without your, you know, conscious willfulness, We can 632 00:34:48,679 --> 00:34:50,760 get your muscles to generate the force that you would have needed 633 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,679 to maintain the pace. So the theory there is a big 634 00:34:54,679 --> 00:35:00,480 part of the wall is not actually physiological at the sight of 635 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,880 the muscle. A big part of it is there's 636 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,600 warning signs going off in the muscle and in the blood, and the 637 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,480 brain is sensing that and the brain is making you slow down. 638 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,560 Does that make sense? Yeah, that's interesting. 639 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:18,000 Now on that, on that note, a really fascinating concept is a 640 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,680 lot of literature has looked at why is it elites versus non 641 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:23,120 elites? The elites aren't hitting the 642 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,960 wall as much as the non elites. Why are the non elites hitting 643 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,680 the wall a lot more? Because they're thinking a lot 644 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,280 more about disassociation, right? 645 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,880 A lot of times you're hearing individuals and it's like, hey, 646 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,240 when you feel that pain, when you feel whatever, just blast 647 00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:39,720 your music, just try and think about something else. 648 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,280 Most of the literature shows that that's not a good thing 649 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,680 because you miss a lot of the internal signs and cues that 650 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,440 maybe you should have slowed your pace a mile back, maybe you 651 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,360 should have stopped and gotten a little bit more Gatorade or 652 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,960 electrolyte at the last aid station and things like that. 653 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,440 So it's sort of like this Goldilocks, this Goldilocks 654 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:05,480 principle of you don't want to be so tuned in to, Oh my gosh, 655 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,160 let me pay attention to every little, you know, ache and pain 656 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,560 and thought of pain that pops up. 657 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,760 But you want to be based on hitting the wall in the 658 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:17,560 literature. You want to be paying attention 659 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:24,160 to it more than just trying to completely avoid feeling any 660 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,920 pain, feeling anything, and like drowning out your thoughts, 661 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:27,720 right. They call it like a 662 00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:30,640 disassociation. The more you do that and the 663 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,280 more you think you're going to hit the wall when they when they 664 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,280 interview lots of runners, elite and non elites, the elite 665 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,680 runners will almost never tell you that they're going to hit a 666 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:41,560 wall. A majority. 667 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:46,080 It was like 56% in this one study of non elites said yes, 668 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,360 I'm I'm bound to hit the wall at some point. 669 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:53,080 Thinking that makes it so is ultimately what the literature 670 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,280 is showing. So it's like get it out of your 671 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,920 head, stop it right. Positive thinking won't allow 672 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,160 you to do everything, but it will allow you to do everything 673 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:01,600 better than negative thinking will. 674 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,480 So stop having it in your brain that I'm going to hit the wall 675 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:09,360 because you might be self inducing that wall and we could 676 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,520 actually open up your muscles and say there's nothing wrong 677 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,080 with your muscles. You could have, You could have 678 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,480 picked up your pace, but you told the brain, and you got the 679 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,760 brain to be so worried about hitting the wall that you 680 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,520 induced it on your own, just psychologically. 681 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,240 That's so interesting. And it's also interesting to 682 00:37:25,240 --> 00:37:29,000 hear, you know, about the disassociation and you know 683 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,120 exactly what you said. We do mantras and all sorts of 684 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,000 things to distract ourselves from that when maybe we should 685 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,520 just listen. But maybe at the same time your 686 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,240 brain starts playing tricks on you and tells you that you are 687 00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:43,320 probably more tired than you really are. 688 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,480 So then you might slow down too much. 689 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,480 So it's it's all you know, it's all really jumbled. 690 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:51,560 It's all really jumbled, give and take. 691 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,760 I think it was Matt Fitzgerald book 8020. 692 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,760 He had a line in there that said like a great runner is a quiet 693 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,560 runner, like a quiet mind. Because you just let yourself go 694 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:05,320 and you're you're not trying to avoid any thoughts, but you're 695 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,400 not trying to add any thoughts. And you just, you know, face 696 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,880 them as they come. And again, nothing beats 697 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,120 experience. Talk to someone who's run 50 698 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,080 marathons or 100 marathons and they're going to have a way, 699 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:21,040 hopefully a way better. You know, advantage like 700 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:26,040 advantage point and like you know recommendation regarding 701 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,680 avoiding the wall and how to think and how to train and 702 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,120 things like that. Yeah, yeah, no, that's that's 703 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:33,920 cool. I like that. 704 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,320 I have to dive into that maybe a little bit more. 705 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,840 Hey, runners, have you ever heard of runner athletics? 706 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:45,120 That's RUNUR. 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If you are already using you can 746 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:59,880 and you want that 20% discount, you can just go to youcan.co and 747 00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:03,200 save those 20 percents with code MRP. 748 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,440 We're also having all this LinkedIn, our show notes and now 749 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:12,600 back to the show. But right now I'd like to know, 750 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,600 beyond the glycogen depletion, could you maybe explain the 751 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,400 concept of muscle fatigue? You touched on it a little bit 752 00:41:20,720 --> 00:41:24,600 that the brain controls it, but it might not be quite there. 753 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:26,240 But maybe you can go into it a little bit more. 754 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:32,200 Yeah, so there's differences in muscle fatigue from someone 755 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,720 who's running a mile all out versus someone who's running a 756 00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:38,840 marathon. You're running the mile and 757 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:43,080 you're doing a lot of a good. A decent OK amount of that work 758 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,280 is going to be depending on your mile. 759 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,040 Time is going to be anaerobic. Like anaerobic is going to make 760 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,520 up like a chunk, not that much, but let's say 30%. 761 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,080 You know, something like that of your mile time. 762 00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:00,080 You get into a marathon and it's just pure aerobic, so at the 763 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:05,000 short distance, it's not energy per SE that's going to cause 764 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:06,920 fatigue. It's just you're generating so 765 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,760 much lactate, and lactate generates hydrogen ions. 766 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,920 Hydrogen ions are acidic. So when if all of a sudden 767 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:17,160 you're just trying to Sprint a mile, a big part of fatigue is 768 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,320 going to be the buildup of a lot of these byproducts that just 769 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,160 jams up and slows down the muscle from contracting. 770 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,480 When it comes to the marathon, it's primarily going to be 771 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:31,720 energy based, so that fatigue is going to come from a depletion 772 00:42:31,720 --> 00:42:35,880 of muscle glycogen or a lowering of your blood glucose. 773 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:40,600 And this is where you get into part of drinking carbohydrate 774 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:45,000 during a marathon during long runs is really for one of two 775 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,040 reasons. One and the main reason is to 776 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:52,680 supply, to supply sugar into your blood so that your brain 777 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:56,320 doesn't get low on energy and that's going to trigger fatigue. 778 00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:58,640 And then the other part is you're trying to supply the 779 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:02,480 working muscle with some some sugar so that when glycogen 780 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,240 starts to get a little bit low and it's going to be forced to 781 00:43:05,240 --> 00:43:09,360 switch over its fuels, fat is going to burn slower than 782 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,680 glucose coming from the blood. So if we can, that thought is, 783 00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:16,920 if you continually supply sugar to the working muscle, when 784 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,920 you're getting near that hitting the wall, it's going to not need 785 00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:24,840 you to slow down as much. But most of that fatigue is 786 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,800 literally for the most part in the marathon distance. 787 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,840 Once you get like really past five miles, a lot of that is 788 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,840 going to be energy based. There are aspects of the muscle 789 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,480 and things that just build up over time over the course of 790 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:43,000 two, 3-4 hours, and the muscle is just going to slowly wear 791 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:44,800 out. And a lot of that is, it just 792 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:50,120 can't keep up like the contraction to sustain that 793 00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:54,520 pace. Yeah, that does make sense. 794 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,200 And it's so interesting how you know there's so many different 795 00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:01,880 factors that play into it, your training, your nutrition, all, 796 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:05,160 all, you know, coming down to one day considering race 797 00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:09,920 conditions and sleep. So I guess my final question 798 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:12,480 would be, when you're talking about a runner who's done 799 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,600 everything right in their training, they have trained 800 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:20,000 properly to have their PR race coming up. 801 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:26,000 And what would be your advice to them prior to the race when they 802 00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:30,120 fueled right and everything? What can they do to avoid that 803 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,880 wall and also understand that the wall might be hit? 804 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,840 It just means slowing down and not completely stopping. 805 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:40,960 Yeah. So I mean, obviously you want to 806 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,080 do everything you can. We just said that this is an 807 00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,000 individual who's done everything they can. 808 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:48,360 They're properly hydrated. They've consumed enough 809 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:53,680 carbohydrate pre exercise and we didn't even The study I did for 810 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,560 my post doctoral fellowship at University of Connecticut was 811 00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:00,320 ketogenic diet ultra endurance runners and we had them 812 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:02,320 basically run for three hours. So they did. 813 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:06,560 It was on average like 8. I think it was 18 or to 21 814 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:08,040 miles. But some of them ran like 815 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,800 marathons because they were just in like wicked B shape. 816 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,640 So it's like they ran a marathon for us and they follow less than 817 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:16,640 10% of their calories as carbohydrate, things like that. 818 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:18,400 But we're not getting into that today. 819 00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:23,000 For the general individual who is doing everything they can, 820 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:24,480 they're following like the typical. 821 00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:28,560 We wanna do what we can to prepare from a training 822 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:30,600 standpoint, be properly hydrated. 823 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,080 You don't want to just be properly hydrated like the day 824 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:37,320 before the week leading into it and you get into your tapers and 825 00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:38,920 that's your training plans and things like that. 826 00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,520 But you want to be hydrated for as long as you possibly can, 827 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:48,240 like a week prior to that day. Nothing's going to be having the 828 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,680 layout of what know what they have at the aid stations. 829 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:55,080 And you know, most people don't do drop bags in like marathons. 830 00:45:55,240 --> 00:45:57,760 That's more of the ultra world. But know what they're going to 831 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:02,360 have at the aid station, right? Try and plan out as best as you 832 00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:04,720 can. But there's a good quote that I 833 00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:07,200 read the other day and it was like I I have found that 834 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:11,200 planning is invaluable. But plans are useless, right. 835 00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,240 And it's the idea of I think it was Dwight D Eisenhower. 836 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:18,120 It's this idea that understand and part of the wall what the 837 00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:21,840 literature is saying and what many are saying is the wall 838 00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,280 might be the wall that you've reached in your head. 839 00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,520 You can. It's not so much what plan you 840 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:31,760 have that day, but how well you have been planning. 841 00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:37,400 So be open to lowering your pace if you're going to need to lower 842 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:39,840 your pace. Right there are like the elites 843 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:43,040 out there where right you get into a lot of these runners who 844 00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:45,600 run for money. They're just going to stop 845 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:47,920 running because they know that they have another race coming 846 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:49,800 up. If you're not that individual, 847 00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:53,720 the idea is do you want ADNF or D? 848 00:46:53,720 --> 00:46:58,000 Are you OK with coming to grips that I just have to slow down 849 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:03,360 the nothing beats knowing when to slow down a little bit so 850 00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:08,400 that you don't hit that physical or psychological wall that makes 851 00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:12,920 you slow down a lot. So you want to practice in runs, 852 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,040 especially longer runs like the timing of your nutrients. 853 00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:17,640 When am I going to drink the fluid? 854 00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:19,720 Practice what that's like, right? 855 00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,880 How far part of the aid stations and then practice that in the 856 00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:27,440 real world so it that that none of it is on as you want to be as 857 00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,200 familiar with that race as possible right. 858 00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:32,600 You have a lot of individuals they'll go and they'll like like 859 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:36,320 they'll map out the course. They'll visualize the course and 860 00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:38,880 things like that and then we can get into a whole nother talk and 861 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,000 when we talked about mindset before but of this idea of 862 00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:46,760 visualization. The more I've read into hitting 863 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,680 the wall, the more and the more I'm getting into mindset and 864 00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:53,920 things like the the more I'm blown away at how much our own 865 00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:59,080 mindset induces the wall itself from a psychological standpoint 866 00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:02,040 and less of an actual physiological or biological 867 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,200 standpoint. But at the end of the day, all 868 00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:06,640 you can do is all you can do, right? 869 00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:08,000 I think it was, John Wooden said. 870 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:10,240 Right. Success is knowing that you did 871 00:48:10,240 --> 00:48:13,400 your best to become the best you could be and that's all we can 872 00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,160 ask. I can all ask of myself or we 873 00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:20,440 can ask of of your listeners, you know, did you prepare well 874 00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:25,480 enough to come out And then guess what though? 875 00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:27,640 We're humans. This is life. 876 00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:30,760 You can do everything possible and stuff happens. 877 00:48:31,720 --> 00:48:35,520 So you just you just you have to meet it as it comes. 878 00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:39,000 The more you're prepared to understand what am I going to do 879 00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:44,960 now, you know, the better off you'll be when that potential 880 00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,080 wall comes or the onset of the wall that hopefully you can 881 00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:49,920 mitigate. And it's not a wall. 882 00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:54,040 It's just a little speed bump that you can, you know, casually 883 00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:55,760 hop over. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 884 00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:59,280 It's when you feel like you're putting in the same effort, but 885 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,240 your time on your watch says you're running slower and then 886 00:49:02,240 --> 00:49:05,480 you try to speed up, but for some reason you just can't move 887 00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:11,320 your legs as quickly. Yep, yeah, it's yeah, the the 888 00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:13,240 the mind is a is a powerful thing. 889 00:49:13,720 --> 00:49:17,160 The idea is the only two things that we have control over in our 890 00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:19,320 life is our thoughts and our actions. 891 00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:21,520 And those actions are skeletal muscle contractions. 892 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:25,000 So in order to keep your legs going initially, in order to 893 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:27,120 keep them going eventually, you have to. 894 00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:29,160 You have to think that into right. 895 00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:31,160 Skeletal muscle contraction is voluntary. 896 00:49:31,720 --> 00:49:35,560 Everything you do from A, which is why it's so amazing to to be 897 00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:37,560 a runner and to everyone who's listening. 898 00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:40,880 If you're a runner, it's all of those miles that you put in. 899 00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:45,360 You did so on your own accord, like volitionally, right. 900 00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:49,240 You did that on purpose because you thought it into existence, 901 00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:52,200 but sometimes you're going to want them to go and they're just 902 00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,280 not going to go because your brain's going to say I think 903 00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:57,600 you're going to screw us over and I think you're an idiot. 904 00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:00,600 You're going to go down a bad path and it's going to try and 905 00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:04,200 limit you. Actually random thought if 906 00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:07,840 someone wants to try and override that or have the 907 00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:12,680 capacity to maybe override it if it could be overridden to you 908 00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:15,320 would like to slow down. They they just call it a bar 909 00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:18,080 hang. Just go and grab a bar and hang. 910 00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:21,160 You can find like a stair ledge. Go to a playground things like 911 00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:24,800 that like a pull up bar and just hang as long as you possibly 912 00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,840 can. And when you the and the reason 913 00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:30,840 why you're going to let go is not because you don't have the 914 00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,000 capacity to contract your muscles anymore. 915 00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:35,920 It's because your brain is going to be screaming at you to let 916 00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:39,200 go. So it's just how long, How bad 917 00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:43,120 do you want to keep holding on? Because most listeners a wall, 918 00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:48,280 whatever wall they hit, it's very unlikely to be truly, like, 919 00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:51,840 dangerously A physiological, biological thing. 920 00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:55,040 And with that, all runners are running to the playground right 921 00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:57,600 now to practice over overriding that. 922 00:50:57,600 --> 00:50:59,520 But you know, it's interesting that you said that because I was 923 00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:03,200 watching a documentary and free diving before and how long 924 00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:06,400 people can hold their breath underwater and that the people 925 00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:10,200 that are really into it, they end up passing out because 926 00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:13,480 they're not allowing, you know, that contraction to happen and 927 00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:17,360 that gasping for air. Yeah, they can. 928 00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:19,360 They override it. So that's where you get into 929 00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:21,640 this. It's going to be a little bit 930 00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:25,800 more dangerous, you know deep diving as opposed to I'm going 931 00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:28,320 to push a little bit more in the marathon and things like that 932 00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:31,120 thankfully. But yeah, it's it's either just 933 00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:34,120 those individuals, right, you anyone watches or hears about 934 00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:37,240 Steve Prefontaine, right, the famous runner like Nike from 935 00:51:37,240 --> 00:51:40,840 Oregon and things like that. It's he just had this incredible 936 00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:44,000 ability to override whatever his brain right? 937 00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:46,160 Like the one race. I mean he was just like bloody 938 00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:51,000 feet and things like that and I know my ultra it's I had like 939 00:51:51,720 --> 00:51:55,000 almost like swamp foot or trench foot like I had like fissures. 940 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:59,360 I only changed my socks once and the last 25 miles last marathon 941 00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:03,680 of my 100 Miller, it felt like every step I was just pins and 942 00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:05,640 needles like someone was stabbing me in the bottom of the 943 00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:09,440 foot. But it's like, you know, ask 944 00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:12,480 the, you know, medical advisors, is this OK? 945 00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:14,640 And they're like, yeah, you're going to, it's OK as long as 946 00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:16,880 you're willing to do it. And it's like at that point it 947 00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:20,360 was just mental, so but you don't want to psych yourself, 948 00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:22,440 yeah. No, I think, I mean, I think 949 00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:24,720 that is all interesting because because it kind of boils back 950 00:52:24,720 --> 00:52:26,720 down to what you were saying earlier when it comes to 951 00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:29,560 experience. Because obviously your first 952 00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:31,480 marathon you're kind of, you know, shell shocked. 953 00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,280 And then if you do it over and over and over again and you're 954 00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,800 exposing yourself to different weathers during the marathon, 955 00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:41,080 different terrain and then eventually your brain says, oh, 956 00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:43,080 I've been there before, I've done that before. 957 00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:45,920 It's it doesn't seem as hard even though it is still hard, 958 00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:49,920 but it it just different. Yeah. 959 00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:54,320 And then that over time, part of the learning curve is honing in 960 00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:59,600 on mile three. I think I can, I think I can 961 00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,880 maintain this pace for the next 23.2 miles, right? 962 00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,920 But you, you don't know that unless you have so many miles of 963 00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:09,920 those distances under your belt and a lot of training, right? 964 00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:12,640 You have to run hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of miles 965 00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:14,880 just to toe the line for the 26.2. 966 00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:20,320 But most training plans will never have those runs as more 967 00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:22,840 than 20 miles, right? And then a lot of that, 968 00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:27,640 everything boils down then to did you do what you needed to do 969 00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:31,400 to prepare so that on that race day, you're right, you're always 970 00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:32,880 going to have nerves. You're always going to have 971 00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:35,240 those butterflies and things like that, you know. 972 00:53:35,240 --> 00:53:38,640 But it's more excitement. It's not from I I don't know 973 00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:40,840 what's going to happen, right. I don't know if I'm going to 974 00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:42,640 finish. It's I don't know if I'm going 975 00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:45,920 to finish in the time, right? If you if you did all the work, 976 00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:49,360 less of those doubts and things can creep in. 977 00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:51,160 Yeah. No, absolutely. 978 00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:52,120 No. That's beautiful. 979 00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:54,720 Well, there we go. You know, thank you so much. 980 00:53:54,720 --> 00:53:58,560 I really appreciate your help and I wish you the best for your 981 00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:01,560 next ultra too. Yeah. 982 00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:07,280 Thank you. Thank you Patrick for coming on 983 00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:12,000 again and for all your knowledge and for all you guys that have 984 00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:15,640 hung in there. I hope everything was clear and 985 00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:18,400 that you're walking away with some knowledge that you can 986 00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:20,320 implement in your training, because that's the whole goal 987 00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:23,600 behind this podcast. To me, I always find it a huge 988 00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:27,520 benefit to understand something and that helps me overcome it. 989 00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:31,640 So for instance, like if you understand why you're feeling 990 00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:35,400 the way you do, I think it's easier to, I guess, think of it 991 00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:38,440 objectively and and then be able to overcome it. 992 00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:41,560 I know you think that way. I do, because once a month you 993 00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:44,680 tell me, Letty, this is your uterus and it drives me up the 994 00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:48,160 wall when you say that, because that logical explanation does 995 00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:49,680 nothing when you're in the moment. 996 00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:52,680 I'm actually getting mad right now at talking about it. 997 00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:59,160 Yeah, I test my luck and my life during that time of month. 998 00:54:59,720 --> 00:55:02,760 Yeah, I remember you showing me a picture of a uterus that looks 999 00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:04,880 angry. You're ovary acting. 1000 00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:08,560 So Ryan is saying ovary acting. Yeah, ovary acting. 1001 00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:10,640 Yeah, that joke doesn't roll well in our house. 1002 00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:13,880 Yeah, Which which kind of brings me to the experience and I'm, 1003 00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:16,080 I'm going to shut this podcast down after this last comment. 1004 00:55:16,720 --> 00:55:20,160 The experience of being at the VO2 Max test because you know 1005 00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:23,680 everything is based on your values, you know, through the 1006 00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:25,400 EKG machine that's attached to you. 1007 00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:29,200 But also, they have a chart, and it's your perception of effort, 1008 00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:31,880 one being the lightest and 20 the hardest. 1009 00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:34,680 So as a lady was explaining everything about, you know, this 1010 00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:35,920 is the hardest thing you ever done. 1011 00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:39,560 I was thinking in my head, Uh huh, That'd be like Labor and 1012 00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:42,120 the man next to me. That's probably the sniffles for 1013 00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:46,920 him. That's a bit of an exaggeration, 1014 00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:49,200 but a point taken. I mean, I don't know. 1015 00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:51,920 You know, when you guys get sick, it's always like, wow, you 1016 00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:53,320 are really sick. You're dying. 1017 00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:55,400 You have to be left alone. Oh, I'm not that bad. 1018 00:55:55,720 --> 00:55:57,640 I do want to be left alone, but I'm not really. 1019 00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:00,040 I'm not someone to whine. I just said leave me alone. 1020 00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:02,760 And so I just go in my little hole and stay there until I met 1021 00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:04,560 her. And I just say leave me alone 1022 00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:06,360 and but I don't whine. I don't. 1023 00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:09,080 I don't complain. I just want to be left alone. 1024 00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:11,200 And it's usually when Ryan has like a splinter. 1025 00:56:11,720 --> 00:56:14,080 Oh, come on. All right. 1026 00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:16,560 So stay tuned for next week. Next week we are going to have 1027 00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:20,000 another episode about running slow to get faster. 1028 00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:22,680 That whole 8020 thing, which I've been taken to a whole new 1029 00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:25,600 level. I've been doing 95 to 5% but I'm 1030 00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:28,440 going to get better this summer after a little break. 1031 00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,920 Famous last words and with that. Have a great week of running. 1032 00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:39,520 Thanks for tuning in. For more information Ant 1033 00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:41,440 Marathon running news, please head to 1034 00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:46,800 www.marathonrunningpodcast.com and we'll be back next week. 1035 00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:01,960 Are you looking for the Perfect apparel That mirrors your love 1036 00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:04,840 for running? Look no further than Run Swag, 1037 00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:07,440 The go to store by runners, forerunners. 1038 00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:11,000 From witty Tees to hoodies that commemorate your Marathon Majors 1039 00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:14,560 to crops that get you motivated, run swags got you covered. 1040 00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:17,640 Discover the perfect blend of comfort and style. 1041 00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:23,480 Visit www.runswag.com Run swag. There's something for every 1042 00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:23,920 runner.