1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,720 You're listening to episode 207 of the Marathon Running Podcast. 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:06,760 In this episode, we're going to talk about running slow to get 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:16,360 faster. This is the Marathon Running 4 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:18,920 podcast by Letty and Ryan from We Got The Runs. 5 00:00:19,240 --> 00:00:22,200 Join us in our running community for weekly content that is 6 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:26,040 motivational, educational, and inspirational, and that the 7 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:28,880 Marathon Running Podcast take you from the starting line to 8 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:38,760 the finish line and beyond. Hey runners, and welcome back to 9 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:41,400 another episode of the Marathon Running Podcast. 10 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,400 My name is Letty. I am flying solo again this 11 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:46,760 week, but I only have myself to blame for that. 12 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,800 I'm gonna be out of town this weekend, so there will be no 13 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,640 Ryan today and I hope you guys bear with me. 14 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,960 Anyway, if you guys are new to the channel, welcome back. 15 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,520 We do a weekly marathon running podcast on all things running. 16 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,120 We bring you the experts on training, nutrition, resilience, 17 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:05,319 you name it. And we do race recaps as well, 18 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:07,320 which are some of my favorite episodes. 19 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,880 In addition, we also try to get on guests that have a story to 20 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,440 share, a story to share that is motivational. 21 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,240 So that's us in a nutshell if you are a long time listener. 22 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,920 Thank you for coming back on a couple of things before we hop 23 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:24,720 into today's topic. You guys know that we know are 24 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:27,400 on YouTube. We appreciate anyone that will 25 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,960 listen to or watch our videos on there as well and give us some 26 00:01:30,960 --> 00:01:33,400 feedback. I'm a huge fan of constructive 27 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:35,920 criticism. I prefer the constructive 28 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:39,920 criticism of arriving in my inbox rather than on a bad 29 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:41,720 review. So if you want to check out some 30 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,280 of our videos this week we posted yet another one on VO2 31 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,160 Max testing. You can find us by going to 32 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,400 YouTube and just typing at Running Podcast into the search 33 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,720 bar and you should see the same image of our podcast there. 34 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,560 Thank you guys for doing that. Another quick thing we've been 35 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,240 doing monthly giveaways on Instagram. 36 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:07,320 For this current one we are giving away five boxes of you 37 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,880 can so you would get a 12 pack of you cans if you win this 38 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:13,520 giveaway. And for that you have to get on 39 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,200 Instagram and you can find us there under the same thing at 40 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,040 Running Podcast. All right, so enough of that. 41 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,560 Today's episode is going to be very epic because we have one of 42 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:27,080 my favorite guests on, which is coach David Levine. 43 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,320 He is the LA Rd. Runners head coach. 44 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:35,320 So under him there is all the Pacers for the LA Marathon and 45 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:37,560 I'm not sure how many. I want to say, oh, more than 46 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:40,920 1000 runners, that yearly train for the LA Marathon. 47 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,280 And he is the one that writes all the trainings, plan training 48 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,880 plans. He has a ton of knowledge. 49 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:50,280 He's himself run a ton of marathons, triathlons, all that 50 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:52,760 stuff. And he caters towards the 51 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:55,520 specific training groups. So they have training groups one 52 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,480 through 10 and all of them are different speeds, obviously. 53 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:02,720 And yeah, so, so he has a lot of knowledge on how running works, 54 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:05,280 the science behind it, he's a little bit of a science nerd and 55 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,720 I love guests like that. So we're going to hear from him 56 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:13,240 about running slow to run fast. So I let him explain all that 57 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:14,400 stuff. He's better at it. 58 00:03:14,640 --> 00:03:16,920 So without any further ado, we're now going to play my 59 00:03:16,920 --> 00:03:22,600 conversation with David Levine. All right, So I'm back on with 60 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:24,840 David Levine, the head coach of the LA Rd. 61 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:26,720 Runners. David, thank you for joining me 62 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,360 again. Thanks for having me. 63 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,880 I thought it would be great to bring you on because I know that 64 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,880 you deal with hundreds and hundreds of runners and you have 65 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,960 new runners, seasoned runners, and how do you go about that, 66 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:40,600 right? You're saying everything is a 67 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:45,400 big mathematical equation, and then of course running slow is 68 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:49,520 something that can help us build a better engine to get to that 69 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,480 level. To to get farther, to be able to 70 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,840 build endurance fitness. Fitness is just a nebulous term 71 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:01,400 that means just general ability, and part of that ability is 72 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,000 endurance, being able to go farther and part of that is 73 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,280 going slower or the ability to go slower. 74 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,520 I love those analogies. So if you're running Zone 2, you 75 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:14,880 want low heart rate because that's where you're going to 76 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:18,360 gain those things that you don't get from high heart rate. 77 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:21,519 Specifically, you're going to get more of a fat burning 78 00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:24,960 engine, right. For endurance you're you're I 79 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:29,000 know I've said this a million times but the the the greater 80 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,760 reservoir of resource for fuel is fat for all of us humans. 81 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:38,960 You know, even the thinnest of people the the, the limited 82 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,840 reservoir and you use fat more at low heart rate. 83 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,640 So you want it. What we call endurance is really 84 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,760 just low heart rate training to you to train your body to 85 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:53,920 consume more fat, right. So basically, you know, I have a 86 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,320 group in Griffith Park and I have a group here in Santa 87 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,960 Monica, the group in Griffith Park, the group in Santa Monica 88 00:04:59,960 --> 00:05:03,400 recently on the Rose Bowl have had about, you know, about 30, 89 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:08,040 maybe 35% PR rate. I was just curious, I had them 90 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,000 raise their hands. I really don't care about PRS, 91 00:05:10,280 --> 00:05:13,680 but I was just curious. So about 3035% PR rate. 92 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,840 They're always getting through water tables quick. 93 00:05:16,840 --> 00:05:19,720 They're always getting the pace to marathon race pace. 94 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:25,240 Now the group in Griffith Park that I coached for 15 years and 95 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:27,480 I'm not really there full time, I'm more in Santa Monica. 96 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,960 The group in Griffith Park, they're kind of look like a 97 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,600 group of lazy people. They, you know, even the 10 98 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,800 minute per mile groups, they'll like a 20 foot hill. 99 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:39,640 They'll slow down, slow down, slow down and they're they're 100 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,800 walking up the hill. This is a run only group. 101 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,920 They're walking up the hill, not a steep hill. 102 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:50,480 They could run it and they stop at water tables. 103 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,960 They'll kick back a thing, report, they'll kick back 104 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,320 another one. I would say treat water tables 105 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:01,000 kind of like a bar, kick back a few, tell a joke and then move 106 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:02,960 on. And the Griffith Park group does 107 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:04,800 that. Now you should understand the 108 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,600 Griffith Park groups traditionally had about a 60 to 109 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:13,880 70% PR rate because they really kept their heart rates low. 110 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,440 They really built with endurance. 111 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,680 Low heart rate, right? Use fat more at low heart rate, 112 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,080 Glycogen carbohydrate at higher heart rate. 113 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:27,800 I'm using my hands and it's on a voice chat so no one can see me 114 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:33,560 anyway. So obviously speed work you. 115 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:37,760 If you want to go fast, you need to retrain fast, so you be zone 116 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:39,920 4. You know, you you then run real 117 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,040 fast, get the water tables quick, but there's only short 118 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:44,280 bouts. You probably don't need that 119 00:06:44,280 --> 00:06:48,920 much water, you know. Those are short and fast 120 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,440 midweek. Usually the long runs, you want 121 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:56,520 to just maintain that low heart rate and that's the the huge, 122 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:00,000 huge difference. The lazy group in Griffith Park 123 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,440 is having huge success because they're maintaining low heart 124 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:05,000 rate. And they're they get it. 125 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,000 They they they're building endurance. 126 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:08,760 They're going able to go farther. 127 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,440 They're not burning out. I remember 1 Marathon I, my 128 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:14,880 group in Griffith Park was separate from the Roadrunners 129 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:20,520 and our Roadrunner group. But somebody said to me, you 130 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:22,560 know, I was watching my group going by and they seem like 131 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:24,760 they're doing great, they're speeding up. 132 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,320 Toward the end of the marathon, they had this endurance, they 133 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,200 were doing great, and somebody came up to me from the road run 134 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,320 and said, man, they're dropping like flies. 135 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:37,800 I'm thinking, what there's this huge difference in mentality in 136 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,560 training. The one looks like a bunch of 137 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,480 lazy people in training. The other they're just pushing 138 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,040 themselves and kicking themselves and they do worse. 139 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,880 And there's some great reality to that in terms of training. 140 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:58,040 So yeah, I'll be lazy in your training, but just it's more by 141 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:03,720 volume, You know, pro athletes don't do 20 mile runs. 142 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:07,080 I get this question all the time, why do we only do a 20 143 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,120 mile run? I create these twenty mile runs 144 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:14,480 that I loathe greater risk of injury, people that need greater 145 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,800 recovery time, so they end up with less volume overall. 146 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,800 And it's really about the total volume you do not from one run 147 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:26,560 but all the volume you do. So you know next day you you're 148 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,120 doing way less, you have to do less volume. 149 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,240 So they're not getting the the same volume of fitness and they 150 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:38,360 only done 16 miles, 14 miles and they did like 14 miles. 151 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:43,360 The next day they would have 24 miles rather than 20 miles and 152 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:45,880 then nothing the next day. Make sense. 153 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,760 More volume, greater fitness. I think as it comes down to the 154 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,680 fact that it's kind of instilled in us with everything else in 155 00:08:53,680 --> 00:08:55,000 life. If you want to get good at 156 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,240 something, you have to do more of it. 157 00:08:57,560 --> 00:09:00,080 And when it comes to running, we don't conceptualize it as 158 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:01,840 running. We think about it as OK, but you 159 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:03,480 want to run fast. You have to do more of running 160 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,040 fast. But for running, it always kind 161 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,800 of, you know, you, I know I've heard you say it a bunch of 162 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,160 times and I've learned it by living through it, even though 163 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,720 in my head, you know, it's really hard to see that make 164 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:19,120 sense. Yeah, I, I there there was a guy 165 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:26,800 named, oh God Alan Fast, amazing Ironman, triathlete. 166 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,760 I can't think of his first name Alan. 167 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:34,240 Anyway, he he always said, you know, it's totally counter 168 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:38,360 intuitive and you just have to trust me on this when it works. 169 00:09:40,680 --> 00:09:43,960 But yeah, there there's great truth to that. 170 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,120 It doesn't make sense. But that the lazy group would do 171 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:51,720 way better than than the group that's really pushing themselves 172 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:53,720 and maintaining marathon race pace. 173 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:57,760 And you know, marathon race pace is greater risk of injury 174 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,080 because you're pushing yourself. You're going a little faster. 175 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,320 There's more pounding, so less risk of injury. 176 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:07,040 And you get the same benefits from marathon race pace versus 177 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:09,280 what we call easy pace or Zone 2. 178 00:10:09,680 --> 00:10:13,240 Marathon race pace might be considered Zone 3, you know, or 179 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,800 half marathon race pace, the high end of Zone 3. 180 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,200 So yeah, be be lazy in your training. 181 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,360 I know no one is going to buy into that, no one. 182 00:10:23,680 --> 00:10:27,160 But absolutely you should see the group in Griffith Park. 183 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,040 They're just running and running and suddenly they're walking up 184 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,720 that hill and they look like and they're hanging out at water 185 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:37,280 tables and telling jokes and and they're the other problem is, is 186 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,160 with dehydration and fatigue, your heart rates going higher 187 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,160 and higher and higher and higher to a point where you're 188 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:46,360 anaerobic. You're no longer using fat as a 189 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,840 resource for fuel. And if the whole point of your 190 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:54,800 endurance training long run is to train your body to use fat 191 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:58,080 more efficiently, and your heart rate is so high, you're not 192 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,120 using any fat whatsoever, you know you get to a point 193 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:05,160 threshold where your heart rate your is so high you're no longer 194 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,760 using any fat. Well, if you're not using any 195 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:11,280 fat, and your whole point to the run is to train your body to use 196 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,920 fat more efficiently, what the heck are you doing? 197 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,680 You're just wasting your time. You know the end of the run 198 00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:21,280 where you're breathing hard, you're probably it's anaerobic, 199 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,600 you're probably no longer using fat at all. 200 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:28,000 You're just wasting your time. OK, so I'm just going to ask you 201 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,560 this. I just recently read a lot about 202 00:11:31,560 --> 00:11:35,200 Calvin Kipton's training and seeing what he runs and 203 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:37,960 obviously at the two hour mark you probably know this better, 204 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:42,960 but he probably runs around a 430 mile minute per mile. 205 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:44,960 I can't even see it right because it's so unfamiliar. 206 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:50,600 But his easy runs, he is known to run at about 6:45, seven 207 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,120 minute pace, which I know sounds fast, but it's, you know, it's 208 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:59,480 almost do the math, 2-2 minutes and more slower than what he 209 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,600 does. So if we take that percentage 210 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,320 that's almost you know, almost 50%. 211 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:09,200 So we can really add a lot of minutes to our slow run. 212 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,520 But now I guess with that, I want to ask you, is there 213 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:19,320 anything that you've heard that running slow, Is there too slow? 214 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:27,080 Yes, sitting down right now I am at too low a heart rate to 215 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:32,000 effectively train aerobically. So yeah the, you know if I was 216 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,280 to walk from and it depends on the individual because you know 217 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:39,280 we have walkers that man they just, you know beginners and 218 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:43,520 they start walking and man they're and they're breathing 219 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:45,480 hard, you know, and they're walking. 220 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:49,200 So everybody has their limit and and I think the answer to this 221 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:53,200 is obviously if an expensive heart rate monitor or my cheapo 222 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,960 heart rate monitor. I'm sorry Koros but if it's 2:30 223 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,800 is cheap it's a great watch. I'm sorry. 224 00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:05,640 But at any rate, you know, there there, there are limits to where 225 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,120 it's too slow, but it's based on the individual and based on like 226 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,320 heart rate really. Or you can just listen to your 227 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:13,600 breathing because your breathing is indicative of your heart 228 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,040 rate. So if you're breathing hard, you 229 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,280 just slow it down, you know, if it's. 230 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:24,000 I remember the first time I did, I had a coach a couple decades 231 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:29,040 ago and I did blood lactate testing, so I knew right where 232 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:35,320 my aerobic zone was. My zone two was from like one I 233 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,640 I have a larger heart rate. So it depends on the size of 234 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:42,040 your heart as to the beats per minute that you go. 235 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,520 No one has the same size heart. So someone running in the same 236 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,400 pace group may have different heart rate ranges than the other 237 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:51,360 person in the same pace group. They may finish the marathon 238 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,840 same exact time, but their heart rates are very different because 239 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:56,440 they're the rise of their hearts are different. 240 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:00,520 Especially you get a petite woman with a big giant guy, you 241 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,560 know that their heart rates are totally different, so they're 242 00:14:03,560 --> 00:14:06,640 ranges. So I remember my heart rate 243 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:12,120 range was something like 114 to 128. 244 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,400 I was aerobic and it was 90° outside. 245 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:20,760 So I was given this task to run from 1:18 to 128 heart rate back 246 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:26,560 decades ago and I would get like maybe 100 meters and I'd have to 247 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:30,680 walk and this to me was the most frustrating get my heart rate 248 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,440 down right. This was the most frustrating 249 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,880 thing in the planet to me. And I was in Griffith Park if 250 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:40,320 anyone knows it and I was on my own and I looked around and no 251 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:44,680 one was really watching me, thankfully on this horse trail 252 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,520 and and I was punching the air and cursing and I look like a 253 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:55,720 complete like total lunatic and I was so angry and hated that. 254 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,080 But eventually I got used to it more and more and more and I 255 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:03,320 learned to engage or I began to engage more slow twitch muscle 256 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:05,400 fibers. You know, a lot of people can't 257 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,880 run that slow because they're they're they're they're slow 258 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,800 Twitch muscles needed to go that slow or dormant. 259 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:16,000 They need to engage them by going that slow anyway. 260 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,120 Yeah. So yeah, I was going to actually 261 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,360 just ask you about that because you know, besides turning 262 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,840 yourself into a fat burning engine that everybody calls it, 263 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,760 there are some other benefits of running slowly and you just 264 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,960 mentioned the slow twitch muscle fiber adaptation. 265 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,320 Maybe you can talk to us a little bit about how that all 266 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,280 works with fast switch, slow switch, muscle fiber. 267 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:42,960 Oh, I like that word adaptation. Cool. 268 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:49,160 I'm going to use that anyway. No, Yeah, yeah, you know it. 269 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:54,560 It's a funny thing that over hundreds of thousands, maybe 2 + 270 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,760 1,000,000 years of human evolution, we have gone through 271 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,880 this thing that maybe you in Florida and us in Southern 272 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:03,800 California don't really experience. 273 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:08,760 But it's called snow. And you know, snow won't allow 274 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:13,440 crops to grow. And so we went through periods 275 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,920 of winter starvation where we would have to be in our little 276 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,800 huts or our little caves, you know, and try and find fuel wood 277 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:25,000 to burn, to stay warm and use animal skins to stay warm. 278 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:29,080 But we went through periods of starvations, so we developed as 279 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:35,360 human beings the ability to deal with starvation periods where we 280 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,520 can go several days without eating anything. 281 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:43,120 And the reason we are able to do that is we shut off all non 282 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:47,440 essential muscles. You know to a point where most 283 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:53,320 normal people only use like 45% of their muscles, right? 284 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:58,240 So if you want to go slow, most of your muscles, 55% or more are 285 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:00,280 dormant. They're just sitting there 286 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,360 because if they weren't dormant you would have to feed them. 287 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,359 Well, during periods of starvation you don't want to 288 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,359 have to feed anything. The less you know. 289 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:11,040 This is what we call homeostasis. 290 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:15,000 Your body will go back to a period of homeostasis when 291 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,079 you're not exercising. When you're not strength 292 00:17:17,079 --> 00:17:20,599 training, where you lose that extra strength, you lose that 293 00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:25,240 extra muscles, muscle become dormant, specifically to go back 294 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,119 to that point of your least efficiency. 295 00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:32,760 So you can go through a period of starvation, right 'cause if 296 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,960 you're not running around, or you're not farming, or you're 297 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:40,080 not exerting yourself in some way to create food and you're 298 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,880 just sitting there self, you're starving. 299 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:48,080 You want to use the least amount of food that you can to survive 300 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,440 that starvation period. So that's the only reason. 301 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,720 You know, if we did did bodybuilding instead, kept 302 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:56,880 building and building and building, you'd be the size of a 303 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,320 house. And no, your body won't allow 304 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:03,160 that, women included. Women do not get that big from 305 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,400 bodybuilding, so don't fear strength training at any rate. 306 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:15,960 So yeah, you need to go that slow to engage those muscles 307 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:20,240 that will take you that slow, which is a weird idea. 308 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,400 You know, how do you go that slow when you can't go that slow 309 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,080 because you don't have the muscles engaged to go that slow 310 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,600 and you want to engage those muscles to go that slow. 311 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,360 It's like a catch 22. It's impossible. 312 00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:35,960 Well, here's the the the wrapper, the run around the the 313 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:40,920 around that. Problem is if you walk and then 314 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:45,400 for a few seconds and then slowly start to jog and slowly 315 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,480 start to run and slowly get up to your normal, we all kind of 316 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,480 have that normal pace where we have all these normal muscles 317 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,920 that we use at that pace that are already being recruited. 318 00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:59,920 They're they're not dormant. You get up to that pace and then 319 00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:02,600 you do that for a few minutes and then you start walking 320 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,040 again. You don't have to stop. 321 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,200 You just start walking again for a few seconds and then you 322 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,760 slowly build up and build up and do that. 323 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:12,920 Like over the course of three weeks. 324 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:17,120 Every run you do, you'll hate it at first, but slowly you'll 325 00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:21,160 start recruiting those dormant muscles to engage. 326 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:26,960 And that's the term recruit. When it's dormant, you engage 327 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:28,720 muscles. When you're sitting still and 328 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:30,360 you start using them again, you know. 329 00:19:30,360 --> 00:19:35,120 When you stand up and you're you know, not quite you know as fast 330 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:37,680 it takes a little while to warm up the muscles, that's just 331 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,560 engaging. Already recruited non dormant 332 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:45,280 muscles, but to really recruit dormant muscles, that's the way 333 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,000 to do it. Walk it out a few seconds, 334 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:52,480 slowly start building up and and after about 3:00 or so weeks you 335 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:54,600 won't hate me anymore for making you to do that. 336 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:58,120 Because at first I know I was there. 337 00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:01,240 I was punched in the air and cursing and oh, I hated it so 338 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,880 much anyway. So to play Devil's Advocate kit, 339 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:09,560 we know what fast switch fibre muscle recruitment is for. 340 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:11,640 It's going to be for running fast. 341 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,400 So what do we really need slowed Which muscles for? 342 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:21,200 Going farther, going farther. Because keep in mind, remember, 343 00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:24,200 you know if you want to maintain a slightly lower heart rate so 344 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,720 you're not depleting your glycogen levels too much, you 345 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,640 need to be able to go slower. There are a lot of people out 346 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,440 there that train at some certain pace that their body is 347 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:35,960 accustomed to, and it may not be slow enough. 348 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,880 They may get to a point where they're in their training, 349 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:43,600 they're slowing down and slowing down and slowing down and 350 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,800 burning out, and they can only go so far. 351 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,200 Well, if you want to go farther, you need to be able to go slower 352 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:52,160 if you want to. If you need to be able to go 353 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:56,480 slower, you need to have those slower muscle fibers recruited 354 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,720 to be able to go that slow. A lot of people just can't go 355 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,880 slow that slow and then they they hit the wall. 356 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,240 I I always say it's a trick question. 357 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,000 What mile do you hit the wall at? 358 00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:11,480 And the answer would hopefully be you don't hit the wall till 359 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:16,440 the finish line, but most people will say well 18/20/22 somewhere 360 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,960 around there. Well, why are they hitting the 361 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:20,560 wall? Well, they're depleting their 362 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,280 glycogen levels too quickly, that they're not taking in 363 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,960 enough carbohydrate, or they're just going plain too fast and 364 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,080 depleting glycogen levels too quickly. 365 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,240 Pro athletes want to do a negative split. 366 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,960 They want the second-half of their marathon to be faster than 367 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,720 the first part of the marathon. Well, how the heck do you do 368 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,080 that? You need to recruit those slower 369 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,640 muscle fibers. Just like, get them. 370 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:45,840 Yeah, that just broke the world record. 371 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,880 At this time we want to thank our sponsor You can Are you 372 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,680 tired of a spike in crash and GI distress that comes with the 373 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,640 sugar based sports nutrition? It's time to give You can a try. 374 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,480 You can use as steady release carbs instead of sugars so you 375 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,120 don't feel the highs and the lows in energy you can Powders, 376 00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:10,480 gels and bars are powered by Life Study, a patent starch 377 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,280 based carbohydrate that was originally developed as a 378 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,720 medical food to help children maintain stable blood sugar 379 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,960 throughout the night. It's backed by science and truly 380 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,440 unique in energy source. Clinically proven to help blood 381 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,120 sugar stable during exercise. Lip study supports sustained 382 00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:29,160 performance and optimal energy levels. 383 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:31,760 I've tried. You can now for the past couple 384 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,840 of months and I've been happy with my long runs and how I 385 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,760 feel. Also, they don't taste bad and 386 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,200 after mile 15 I can still stomach them. 387 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,920 Top marathon runners in the US including Emily Sisson, Sarah 388 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,240 Hall, Emma Bates, and Cara D'amato all use you can for 389 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,640 feelings, so why shouldn't you give him a try? 390 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:54,040 Especially because marathon running podcast listeners have a 391 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,760 chance to try 4 gels for free. All you pay for is the cost of 392 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:03,960 shipping, so head over to youcan.co/MRP which by the way 393 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,680 stands for Marathon Running Podcast, to claim this offer and 394 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,200 get your free samples. If you are already using you can 395 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:16,040 and you want that 20% discount, you can just go to youcan.co and 396 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,360 save those 20 percents with code MRP. 397 00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:23,640 We're also having all this LinkedIn, our show notes and now 398 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:28,360 back to the show. That's awesome. 399 00:23:28,360 --> 00:23:33,280 So another benefit that we hear about is that slow paced running 400 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:37,960 promotes mitochondrial density and capillarization, some big 401 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,040 terms. So maybe talk to us a little bit 402 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,160 about that and how that works. I mean, I guess everything kind 403 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,160 of goes towards running economy and making us stronger, but tell 404 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:50,480 us what happens in our bodies? Oh my God, evil science. 405 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:58,920 No, I I think science is great. Science suggests that you only 406 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:05,000 gain certain things of this long list you get at any pace, any 407 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:10,080 heart rate. I had low heart rate Zone 2 and 408 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,120 this goes into what what we call endurance building. 409 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:19,520 These things all have to do with greater efficiency, but mostly 410 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,720 greater efficiency at utilizing fat. 411 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,640 The greater resource for fuel, right? 412 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,840 If you can use fat more efficiently, you got a greater 413 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,280 resource, bigger resource for fuel that you tap into. 414 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,120 So OK, you mentioned two of them. 415 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:41,560 You get more mitochondria density, meaning your 416 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,200 mitochondria take carbohydrate and fat and they turn it into 417 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,080 ATP which is the fuel that your body uses. 418 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:54,680 ATP adenosine Tri meaning 3 phosphate meaning phosphate SO3 419 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:59,760 phosphate molecules and the fuel ATP adenosine triphosphate is 420 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,360 the fuel your body uses. What happens is you are a 421 00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:08,320 nuclear reactor and that more mitochondria creates more of 422 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:15,080 this ATP from fat and carbs. So ATP, your three molecules of 423 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,840 phosphate 1 molecule will break away from the other two 424 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:24,560 molecules, causing this explosion causes an electron to 425 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,720 fire out. That's why your body warms up, 426 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:32,600 because you have this nuclear process that you are exploding 427 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:38,840 molecules, phosphate molecules in this case, one away from the 428 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:43,920 other two, and an explosion basically releases the muscle, 429 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,040 enabling you to move, right. I won't go into that. 430 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,920 That's a little complicated. So there's one thing you get 431 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,720 only from low heart rate work, which is more of these little 432 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:58,200 things that reside in every cell of your entire body called 433 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,280 mitochondria, right? They turn carbs and fats into 434 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:06,400 ATP fuel, right? You also get more oxidative 435 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:11,880 enzymes, meaning you get these enzymes that enable you to 436 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:18,080 metabolize fat more efficiently only at low heart rate, because 437 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,160 you're training your body to use more fat. 438 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,880 Because you're at low heart rate, you use more fat at low 439 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,520 heart rate, right? So you're training your body 440 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,920 that low heart rate anyway. Oxidative enzymes and the the 441 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,480 third one is you get more capillary veins and arteries 442 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,600 only at low heart rate. And capillary veins and arteries 443 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,040 are the smallest veins and arteries that go in and out of 444 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,040 the muscle. So you get more nutrients and 445 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:45,680 oxygen into the muscle more quickly and more waste products 446 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,680 like CO2, hydrogen, nitrogen, getting that out of the muscle 447 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,800 more quickly because you have more capillary veins and 448 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:59,160 arteries only at low heart rate. Now there have been flames by 449 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:07,000 people in like, oh, what is the the group that does fast? 450 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,000 High heart rate? Everything. 451 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,480 CrossFit. CrossFit believes that high 452 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,000 heart rate is great for everything, and you develop all 453 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,120 these things even at high heart rate, even though really no 454 00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:23,760 science does back them up. There are no studies that really 455 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:28,760 indicate that that's true. You do start at a little lower 456 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:30,880 heart rate, or even doing CrossFit. 457 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,880 Your heart rate starts low. So there might be some reason 458 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,800 where you will gain some of those low heart rate things 459 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,120 because your heart rate is still low even when you start running 460 00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:43,040 fast. Takes a while your heart rate to 461 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,040 get up there, but you're kind of wasting your time if you're 462 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,400 building for a marathon. You're not getting the true 463 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,960 endurance training that you need if you're in CrossFit. 464 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,120 Nothing against CrossFit. If you want to train for a mile, 465 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:01,240 you know, strength, you know, speed, work, yeah, it it it all, 466 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:03,480 everything. You know, it's more about speed 467 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,720 for a mile or or sprinting 400 meters, you know, everything 468 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,000 changes. You know that your training 469 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,040 changes. You know, in training you 470 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:17,040 actually benefit from taking in fewer gels and going at lower 471 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:21,400 heart rate and really focusing on consuming fat to make your 472 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,120 body more efficient for fat consumption and marathon race 473 00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:27,080 pace. You're getting a little of all 474 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,440 of it. You're US, you are consuming 475 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,800 more. Glycogen from carbohydrate 476 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,320 becomes glycogen and it is a limited reservoir and you can 477 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,160 hit the wall if you deplete it too much, but you're still using 478 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,360 a lot of fat. Even at zone 3 you're still 479 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,000 aerobic because zone 2 you're really focusing on fat 480 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,280 consumption and becoming more efficient with fat then the 481 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,800 extreme of running high heart rate, then you're raising the 482 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,600 bar. So threshold runs are all about 483 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,840 raising the bar where you're using fat at a little higher 484 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,000 heart rate, so you can essentially go faster, farther 485 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,560 because your heart rate's a little higher. 486 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,680 You're still using fat because you've trained your body from 487 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,640 running really, really fast. Now, running really, really 488 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,960 slow, or or running in Zone 3 or marathon race pace. 489 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,960 You're still using a lot of fat. And yes, you're consuming 490 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,880 glycogen a little more, which is why we take in gels. 491 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,960 We take in carbohydrate during our race. 492 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,680 So that's where you're no longer using fat, and no one is going 493 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:32,240 to get through a marathon at zone 4. 494 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,520 No one on the planet has ever done it. 495 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,320 No one ever will. Not Zone 4 heart rate. 496 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:39,480 Yeah. All right. 497 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:44,400 So let's talk a little bit about the mental aspect of running 498 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,640 slow, right? Because when you're running slow 499 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,200 all the time, I know that, you know, it helps us feel great 500 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,880 that we are able to uninjuredly get all the mileage in. 501 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,640 But then on the flip side, you know, you always have that thing 502 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,240 in your mind. Do I do enough speed training? 503 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,160 So can you, can you go to that a little bit? 504 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,520 Or you could be in an extreme, like me punching the air and 505 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,560 sounding like a crazy person swearing and all over the place. 506 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,280 Yeah, I I hear you. You know, I I get it. 507 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:23,480 So I need to eat something. I'm starving here anyway, so the 508 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:25,320 Well, tell me the question again. 509 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,160 I just got totally sucked. Yeah, no worries. 510 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:31,600 So maybe talk a little bit about like mental strategies, mental 511 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:33,960 resilience, Like how does running slow? 512 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,840 How does running slow help you with your resilience and all 513 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:38,520 that? Got it. 514 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,280 And and you meant you meant the the mental aspect, the challenge 515 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,080 of being able to do that. Yeah, because I know that 516 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:49,720 running you know, slow can, you know, having that patience and 517 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,400 discipline and and and then getting the miles and is 518 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,440 exciting. It's also not exciting because 519 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,720 you get nervous about not having maybe run fast enough even 520 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:00,200 though we know we don't have to run fast enough. 521 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,400 But maybe talk to us about how slow paced running can help our 522 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,040 mental resilience. Sure. 523 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,040 Well, first of all, college students refer to that easy 524 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:16,800 pace, that zone to where, you know, 8085% of what they do is 525 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,600 this zone to easy pace. You know, minute and a half 526 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,000 minute slower or two minutes slower than marathon race pace. 527 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:29,280 And college students refer to those paces as junk miles. 528 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,480 You'll hear that term, junk miles. 529 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:36,160 But junk miles like I said are like it's a huge majority of 530 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,520 what they do. They absolutely recognize that's 531 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,200 what they need if they're going to do a half marathon, marathon, 532 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:49,160 even 5K10K, most of their miles, 5K10K are junk miles because the 533 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,760 majority, even 5K10K are are are fat consumption. 534 00:31:54,520 --> 00:32:00,480 But you know, you slowly get to a point where you can go farther 535 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,840 and farther and you meant the mental challenge of being slow, 536 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,000 you know, Oh my God, I got to do this slow pace again. 537 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,480 That's where groups can help out. 538 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,560 You know, you can talk and suddenly you've just gone 10 539 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,880 miles and you don't realize it because you've had this stupid 540 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,920 conversation about the worst junk food on the planet that 541 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,560 none of you would ever eat. And it makes no sense, that 542 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,680 conversation. But for some reason, you've just 543 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,600 suddenly gone 10 miles and you, you know, didn't really think 544 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:34,760 about it. And that's where groups can 545 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,120 help. But yeah, slowly you get to a 546 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:42,720 point where the challenge of going farther, you know, you're 547 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:47,160 not on a treadmill with ATV set. You know, you're you're just out 548 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,800 there. You you can also use little 549 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:56,040 little things like you know I'm going to run to the next tree or 550 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,880 I'm going to run to the next light pole and you can just 551 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,760 break it up that way if you don't have somebody to talk to 552 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,600 and you're on your own. And I'm going to maintain the 553 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:09,240 same pace, but I'm going to run to the next thing, you know, you 554 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:14,320 just push yourself, OK, I and and divide it up so it's one 555 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,920 mile more and pretty soon one mile more. 556 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,440 The next tree, the next building, whatever it is, adds 557 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,120 up in miles and miles and miles because in your mind, you've 558 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,840 kind of broken it up. And then eventually you get to 559 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:28,240 that point where you're you're cut. 560 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,520 You know, two hours of Zone 2 becomes like, oh, all right, no 561 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,400 big deal. Yeah. 562 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,960 So I guess you get a different concept of time, right? 563 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,040 Because during marathons, you're going to run faster. 564 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,320 A. Little faster. 565 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,960 Yeah, absolutely. And you're going to be out there 566 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,240 longer? Absolutely. 567 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,160 Yeah, and you. But you do you kind of get used 568 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,640 to it, of course. A marathon, depending on where 569 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,920 you are, can either be really, really scenic or can be really, 570 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,120 really exciting with like an inner city race like, you know, 571 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,680 LA, New York, Chicago, Boston, you know, those are massive 572 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,560 races with thousands, you know, millions of people. 573 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:11,000 That LA used to count 1,000,000 people on the sidewalks. 574 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,280 I don't know how they came up with that number, but yeah, then 575 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,120 it it gets a little exciting and you have bands and you know that 576 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,000 that all these distractions they throw into these races. 577 00:34:22,639 --> 00:34:27,600 I I have a hard time with bands, 'cause I I I have a rhythm that 578 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,520 I like to maintain. The band throws off my rhythm. 579 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,920 You know, my running room, I know, but then you have to have 580 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,199 the right song. And so I I in my head I just, I 581 00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:45,400 have a song. I'll just, you know, think of a 582 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:50,760 song and I'll run with that song if I'm alone or actually, here's 583 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:52,560 a here's an idea. If you're hitting the wall and 584 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,760 you're really pushing and pushing and pushing on a 585 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:59,000 marathon, on a race, not so in training but and you won't want 586 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,320 to get to the finish line. Count your steps. 587 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,640 Like every 4th step, it becomes a mantra. 588 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:09,680 So you're really taking your conscious mind away from, you 589 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,240 know, the pain or the suffering or the whatever it is. 590 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,360 You could create a mantra, which is what mantras do. 591 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:20,400 They they they're just a rhythmic, nonsensical, you know, 592 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:28,320 a wild of Chang, you know it's just a rhythmic slogan that 593 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:32,480 means nothing and counting your from a real Yogi. 594 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:38,880 He said yes, that works 'cause I asked him years ago, that really 595 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:43,120 is a mantra. It is a nonsensical series of 596 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,600 things. In this case, numbers add that 597 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,000 add up to nothing. You're just one 2-3, you know, 598 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,160 and it is a rhythm that keeps you going at a certain rhythm, 599 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:56,880 and that is a mantra. And so late in your race when 600 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,200 you're really struggling, just like every 4th step, you know, 601 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:07,120 1234, you know, like every second step, every 4th step. 602 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:08,960 Just keep going. Count them. 603 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:13,440 I found every 4th step for me. I hit 100. 604 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,480 I'm another mile in. Oh my gosh. 605 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,280 Oh, that's brutal. I can't believe you did it for 606 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:18,600 that long. I'm going to try it though, 607 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,200 during my next marathon, and I'll let you. 608 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,800 I'll let you know how that goes. I've gone miles that way when 609 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,640 when you're you know a try Iron Man you know you oh. 610 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:33,360 Boy. You know, and yeah, it works. 611 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,320 It works. Keeps your running rhythm and 612 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:41,680 you don't think about anything. I was once with a pack that I 613 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,520 was pace leading 20 years ago. We're running down an alleyway 614 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:47,120 so there really wasn't anything to see. 615 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,920 It was near the beach, but it was an alleyway and somebody 616 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,160 where like a mile 16 or 18 or whatever it was, we're coming to 617 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,440 the end of our run. And somebody said, you know, my 618 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,720 hip is starting to hurt and someone else, my knee is 619 00:36:58,720 --> 00:37:00,960 starting to hurt. And suddenly my hip was starting 620 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:02,520 to hurt, my knee was starting to hurt. 621 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,240 And the more and more people, you know, my quads are sore, my 622 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,760 cab is sore and my cads and my cab is starting. 623 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,080 And so I said to everybody, OK, here's what we do and we're 624 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:18,200 still running And I said, OK, count your steps. 625 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,240 And we had another mile and three quarter to go. 626 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,440 And I said just count your steps, every 4th step just to 627 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,760 yourself, count your steps. And that will be a mantra. 628 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,840 And everyone started to doing it and my pain and agony went away 629 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,600 and everyone kept up, everyone maintained their pace and it 630 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:37,280 worked. And everyone said, hey, yeah, 631 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:38,560 you know, that really kind of works. 632 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,800 And all the pain kind of went away because our conscious mind 633 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:47,760 was in this mantra state. And so there you go, the little 634 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:49,160 tip. Yeah, That's a good one. 635 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,760 Thank you for that. Another question in regards to 636 00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:55,520 running slower. For the people that have been 637 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:59,320 running fast and are now slowing down, talk to us a little bit 638 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,240 about what they can expect when it comes to, you know, changes 639 00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:04,920 in cadence. Obviously when you run fast, you 640 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,200 probably use different shoes now that we have so many shoes 641 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,200 available and those sort of things, you know, just the bio 642 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,800 mechanical stuff. Got it. 643 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,280 Well, here's the interesting thing. 644 00:38:15,720 --> 00:38:20,480 You can maintain basically the same mechanics pretty much from 645 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,960 running in place versus running slow versus running fast. 646 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,120 Or, you know, so you just don't push back as hard. 647 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,680 If you're pushing back, if you're really engaging your 648 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,560 glutes and your hamstrings, you know, there are a lot of people 649 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,400 that at the end of a marathon, their quads are really, really 650 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,920 sore. Well, you don't really want to 651 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:41,960 do that because then you're engaging your quads. 652 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:46,400 Your quads make you go up and down, not necessarily forward. 653 00:38:46,720 --> 00:38:50,080 Now if you're angled, you know forward, which you want to be 654 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,320 anyway, and you're using your quads, you're basically Pogo 655 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,040 sticking. You're going up and then landing 656 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,400 forward and up and landing forward and no one at home can 657 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,760 see my hand. But you're basically Pogo 658 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,120 sticking your way across the marathon, which is really 659 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,680 inefficient. Your quad dominant and you want 660 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,120 to be hamstring glute dominant. You want to use the back of your 661 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,120 legs more than the front of your legs unless you're going up a 662 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:15,280 hill. If you're going up a hill, you 663 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,240 use your quads more, all right, 'cause that gets you up. 664 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:25,160 But if you push back harder, you're going to go faster. 665 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,640 If you don't push back as hard, you're going to go slower. 666 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,920 Now, if you push back farther, you'll go faster. 667 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:38,200 So yes, for some people, maybe a lot of people, maybe more than 668 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,680 most. If you do, like you mentioned, 669 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:45,400 change your mechanics, I would say most pro athletes aren't 670 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,520 really changing their mechanics. They're just pushing back harder 671 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:52,800 to go faster or not pushing back as hard to go less fast. 672 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:57,000 Their rhythm is the same, you know, their their mechanics are 673 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,480 the same, they're just not pushing back as hard to go to go 674 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:05,360 slower. But for most of us, maybe, maybe 675 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,080 60%, I don't know. Well, I'll guess I don't know 676 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,720 any numbers on it, but you would? 677 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:17,280 Push back. You would not push back with 678 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:23,360 your glutes, your hamstring, as far as you would if you were 679 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,840 going faster. If you wanted to go faster, you 680 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,960 extend your the length of your stride and that will get you to 681 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,800 go faster. There is science that shows 682 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:39,720 clearly that people, us normal athletes especially, do go from 683 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:45,360 shorter, quicker stride, shorter stride, pushing back harder, to 684 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:49,600 longer stride because we can use slightly different muscles. 685 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:54,160 So as you progress in your marathon, you may find that your 686 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,800 stride length may change because you're using different muscles, 687 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,200 'cause you're getting tired, you're fatiguing the muscle, so 688 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:06,040 going maybe short and quick, and then your longer effort, slower 689 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:11,280 muscle, you know, slower stride, maybe will engage slightly 690 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,680 different muscles, and that you kind of do some unconsciously 691 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,560 just 'cause you're getting tired, your muscles are getting 692 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,920 tired. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 693 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,320 David, thank you so much for all of this. 694 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,720 I really appreciate you. Oh, and then look at the LA 695 00:41:25,720 --> 00:41:28,240 Marathon. Thank you very much, and thank 696 00:41:28,240 --> 00:41:32,280 you for allowing me to just spear this endlessly, you know? 697 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,280 Thank you again David, for your graciousness and time that you 698 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,280 spent speaking with me. I super appreciate everything 699 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,880 that you've taught us and thank you guys, you listeners for 700 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,480 hanging in there. If you do have questions, you 701 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,000 can reach out to me, I can connect you with David or you 702 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,400 can find his information in the show notes. 703 00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:58,680 Please let us know how you liked this content and if you have any 704 00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:03,160 content, content suggestions also feel free to message us 705 00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:05,640 with that. The easiest way to reach us is 706 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,280 on Instagram. Again, we are at Running Podcast 707 00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:12,200 and stay tuned for next week and until then have a great week of 708 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:17,640 running. Thanks for tuning in. 709 00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,760 For more information Ant Marathon running news, please 710 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:24,640 head to www.marathonrunningpodcast.com 711 00:42:24,720 --> 00:42:26,440 and we'll be back next week.