1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,800 You're listening to episode 269 of the Marathon Running Podcast. 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:06,760 In this episode, we're going to talk about how to come up with a 3 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:10,280 pacing plan. This is the Marathon Running 4 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:14,440 Podcast with Letty and Ryan. Join us for weekly content on 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,280 all things running and let us take you from the starting line 6 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:29,160 to the finish line and beyond. Hey runners, and welcome to 7 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,200 episode. 269. This episode that he will talk 8 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,360 to you about. How to come up with a pacing 9 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:36,920 plan I. Like this way of interviewing? 10 00:00:37,160 --> 00:00:39,000 Yeah, it's like I fill in all the blanks. 11 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,080 All the difficult answers and all I do is insert the fluff. 12 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:47,640 So his name is Ryan, my name is Letty, and we are your weekly 13 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:50,640 hosts, normally a little bit more serious of the Marathon 14 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,320 Running podcast where we talk about all things running, 15 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:55,560 including nutrition, training, etcetera. 16 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:58,440 And in this episode we're going to talk about coaching. 17 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:00,760 And specifically when it comes to the topic of coaching, we're 18 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,160 going to talk about pacing plants and why Ryan, are pacing 19 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:08,360 plans important? Maximize your efficiency. 20 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:10,560 Exactly. You're doing all this training 21 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,400 for all these months, and then when race day comes, you want to 22 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:18,080 have something to strive towards. 23 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:20,240 Yeah. And so I'm going to turn that on 24 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:22,400 you, Ryan. Why are pacing plans important? 25 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:25,720 I mean, from this is like from an engineering standpoint, if 26 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,680 you go beyond what you're capable of, you may not be able 27 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,800 to keep that pace up and you will die off before you finish. 28 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,480 And if you don't push yourself hard enough, you'll leave some 29 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:39,080 time on the table. Ideally, you know you have a 30 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:43,040 certain level of fitness and if you can maintain that throughout 31 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,360 the whole race, you'll probably end up with your best possible 32 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:48,200 time. Thank you so much for listening. 33 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:50,720 And have a good week of running, no? 34 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,920 No, but you kind of hit the nail on the head with that one. 35 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:56,960 Did I? You really did, Because that's 36 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:58,400 probably the hardest thing to do. 37 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,920 You know, we spent all these months and months training and 38 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,840 running and doing all the miles in the world and then racy comes 39 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,199 in. If we don't follow a plan or if 40 00:02:09,199 --> 00:02:13,160 we just go out and like you said, overdo it and run too 41 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,320 fast, we can mess up all that no matter what our fitness is. 42 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:19,400 So it's good to have a pacing plan so we have something 43 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:25,960 realistic, A realistic goal that we can thrive towards and show 44 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,880 what we're made of and what we trained for, really. 45 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,880 I think also, you know, especially when you're on race 46 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,680 day and you have all the excitement of the race, you have 47 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:37,920 runners blocking you in front of you, all these other factors, 48 00:02:37,920 --> 00:02:41,440 it's really easy to not run a consistent pace, which could 49 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,960 really mess up your, you know, your plan or your efficiency. 50 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,120 Yes, there's a lot that goes into it, and that's why it's so 51 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:52,440 helpful to have run coaches that support you with that. 52 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:56,600 In this episode, we talked to running coach Rebecca Stevenson, 53 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:00,200 who managed to, in her running career, get faster with age. 54 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:04,680 She's very into this sort of subject and very smart when it 55 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:09,720 comes to instructing her runners how to do the best on race day. 56 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:11,680 So that's that. So you want to get into it? 57 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:13,880 Sure. So without any further ado, I'm 58 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,200 now going to play my conversation with Rebecca 59 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:20,520 Stevenson. All right, so I'm on here with 60 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,160 Rebecca Stevenson. Rebecca, thank you so much for 61 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:24,760 joining me today. Oh no. 62 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:26,440 Problem. Yeah, I'm really excited to be 63 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:28,600 here. Yes, and me too, because today 64 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:33,280 we're going to talk about pace plans and that is something that 65 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:38,360 is obviously relevant. Obviously, as we go through our 66 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:40,880 training cycles, eventually we're going to have to come up 67 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:45,240 with some sort of pace plan. So before we do that, maybe tell 68 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,520 our listeners a little bit about yourself and how you are a run 69 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:49,720 coach. Oh OK. 70 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:55,080 Well, I've been running competitively and racing 71 00:03:55,080 --> 00:04:00,240 competitively in triathlons for coming up to like 41 years now. 72 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:06,640 And I've been coaching run triathletes, runners for the 73 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:15,400 last about 20-3 years. And I coach many runners towards 74 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:20,160 either their first marathon and towards a faster marathon. 75 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,080 I coach YEAH runners individually with training 76 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:24,360 plans. Perfect. 77 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:28,680 And because you do that and you have a track record of being, I 78 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:30,240 mean, not just humble, obviously, because you didn't 79 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,640 mention it, but you've gotten faster with age and you have 80 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:37,480 broken 3 and all that stuff. And that was above age 40. 81 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:38,960 So you kind of know what you're doing. 82 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,120 And when you have other people you're working with though, you 83 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,920 have to pay attention to a lot of factors when you come up with 84 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,120 a pacing plan that you think is going to work for them. 85 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:53,320 So I would like to know what specifically are the key factors 86 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:57,280 that you look at when you start strategizing and thinking about 87 00:04:57,280 --> 00:05:00,240 what pacing plan would work for? A runner, yes. 88 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:04,920 So I look at, well, like I said, some people are training for 89 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,320 their first marathon. I look at whether they've ran a 90 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:11,960 marathon before. I look at how their training has 91 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:18,360 gone because no training cycle is ideal, like, you know, Letty. 92 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:25,080 So I look at how their their their long runs went like what 93 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:29,280 was their average pace for their long run long runs, especially 94 00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:32,720 in the last few weeks. So for the longest runs of the 95 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:37,280 marathon training cycle, even though I do give my my runners 96 00:05:37,280 --> 00:05:39,680 different instructions for different long runs, I look at 97 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:44,400 how their marathon effort segments of different runs, 98 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:48,080 including the long runs went. There's about pace. 99 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:52,000 They were able told for those to a certain extent. 100 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:56,120 I look at how, how their speed work to a lesser extent, but I 101 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:58,880 also look at that and, and, and I take it, you know, I take it 102 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:00,960 Scott, you know, where they have they been able to train 103 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:02,920 consistently? You know, in some cases there 104 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:04,680 are injuries that we've had to overcome. 105 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:09,120 And then I compare if they've run a marathon before, I compare 106 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:14,120 all of this to how like these paces, what these paces were in 107 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:20,760 their previous training cycle and formulate a, a, a realistic 108 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,840 average goal pace or come up with an average goal pace for 109 00:06:23,840 --> 00:06:26,400 them. But discussing it with you know, 110 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:30,240 you know, with the athlete too, that's to come up first all with 111 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:34,720 that an average goal pace that might be realistic to to to aim 112 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:36,200 at for the marathon. Yes. 113 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,000 And I can imagine that's probably the toughest thing to 114 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:43,480 do, even though I guess it's not just the pace plan for the race. 115 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:47,360 You are kind of playing with numbers a lot when you give them 116 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:51,880 workouts for Sunday. How are you working on figuring 117 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:55,360 out where a runner should be in general, even for the long runs? 118 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,800 Because we know that not every coach has their marathoners go 119 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,960 at marathon gold pace for their Sunday long runs. 120 00:07:02,280 --> 00:07:05,560 OK, well, so so how how they have them decide like what pace 121 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,120 they should aim at, like say for a long, long run? 122 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:10,840 Well, that that's a good question there. 123 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:15,200 The long run is such a key is, is the most important component 124 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,920 of the marathon training cycle because you're training your 125 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,720 body, you're training your, your mind, you're teaching your body 126 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:24,560 to, to go be out there, you know, running strongly for like 127 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,480 a distance that gets closer and closer to the marathon. 128 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:34,200 And so basically I like to see the average pace coming down 129 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,160 letty for the, for the marathon, regardless of what type of long 130 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:39,680 run I get, though, I like to see that the average pace and it 131 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,920 should, as your body adapts, it should get faster and faster. 132 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,320 You know, say like if in the, you know, beginning of a 133 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:51,040 training cycle, the my athlete was averaging, let me like 845 134 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,040 for the, for their long average pace for the long runs. 135 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:58,400 And then even as the distance gets longer and even taking into 136 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,760 account different kinds of long runs that I give them because 137 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,000 I'll, and some of them I'll have them run surges and some of them 138 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:08,440 have them run a middle part like a goal marathon pace or even run 139 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,200 different segments, maybe 3 mile segments at goal. 140 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:15,440 Actually, I always call it goal marathon effort because it 141 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,040 can't, it doesn't necessarily correlate. 142 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,080 It won't necessarily be a go marathon pace based on how much 143 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,440 fatigue they're carrying. And then the, the, you know, how 144 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:26,480 the course that, the route that they're running on. 145 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:32,320 So I basically, I, I have, I do give them pace, a pace to aim at 146 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:36,039 for a range for the marathon pace efforts. 147 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,200 And I look at, you know, in the previous weeks and, and what 148 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,400 they've been able to do before another marathon in another 149 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:46,200 marathon cycles. And then, you know, I also very 150 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:51,600 are very into getting them to one of the key training sessions 151 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,520 I gave is run fast or pick up the intensity of your effort for 152 00:08:55,520 --> 00:09:00,160 like the last five miles of a, of a, of a long run so that you 153 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,800 teach your body to like resist fatigue and to not slow down. 154 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,600 Otherwise, in other words, at the end of a marathon. 155 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:07,840 Yeah. That's interesting because I 156 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,200 always wonder, you know, somebody that is not coach, say, 157 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:15,200 for example, the free online plans available from Hal Higdon, 158 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:17,080 right? That was back when I did my 159 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,760 first marathon. You're just kind of glancing 160 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:22,280 over and it tells you to run marathon pace. 161 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:24,400 At that point, I hadn't run a marathon before. 162 00:09:24,680 --> 00:09:27,760 So you're just kind of like, OK, I don't know what marathon place 163 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,800 should be, could be would be and for you to have a runner that is 164 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:35,320 a newer runner that has never done a marathon before. 165 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:41,120 Do you have to have them run trial 5 keys or trial miles and 166 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:44,800 then use the V dot calculator just to kind of see where they 167 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,360 are slash should be or how do you even get started with that? 168 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,080 That's a good question. Again, for somebody who has 169 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,600 never run a marathon. Well, I can very early on in 170 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:58,200 coaching him or her tell what kind of runner that person is. 171 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:02,720 And so even though I, I do like predictor tables, for example, 172 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:04,680 like Milan, not, you know, that's my favorite one, the 173 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:09,880 Milan table, I can tell like based on whether how a runner, 174 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,960 for example, runs the increasingly longer long runs, 175 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:20,200 but also whether they, they're like 10K or 5K is, is closer to 176 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,720 like what like those predictor charts dictate. 177 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:28,880 And so I, I, I can tell based on that, like what, yeah, you know, 178 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:33,120 what kind of run are they on? And I try to, I try to work on a 179 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,280 runner's weaknesses because if we're not coached, the Lettie, 180 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:41,040 we're going to just an athlete will tend to work on his or her 181 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,840 strengths, right? Like, so you don't like hills, 182 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,080 so you avoid hills, right? But your coach will say, OK, you 183 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:50,000 know, maybe you need to work on hills because that's where you 184 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,480 tend to like slow down or get discouraged. 185 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:57,680 So I basically, I, I, I see how their, their long runs are, are 186 00:10:57,680 --> 00:10:59,760 going. I look at like these predictor 187 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:04,000 tables and, and you know, and I see how they're progressing 188 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:08,080 because everybody's body like adapts in a different way. 189 00:11:08,560 --> 00:11:12,280 And what's going to come together on race day or how it's 190 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:13,680 going to come together on race day. 191 00:11:13,680 --> 00:11:17,720 You know, lady and lady's listeners are, is a combination 192 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,640 of how your body has adapted to the training, whether you've 193 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,120 been able to train consistently, which of course means trying to, 194 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:29,600 you know, avoid a barring injury or or illness, how the marathon 195 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,240 efforts have gone, what was the paces for those? 196 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:37,280 And so, so even if they haven't ran a marathon before, you know, 197 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:39,800 if, what can you tell them for marathon effort, but you 198 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,360 basically you tell them to run something that's like, feels 199 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:47,560 like just a little bit, not quite as, as as strongly as like 200 00:11:47,560 --> 00:11:51,720 1/2 marathon effort. So I look at like all these 201 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:57,600 factors and I have each of my runners always run a trial, like 202 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,400 a time trial half marathon or a real half marathon, like 3 to 4 203 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:03,960 weeks before. That gives me, that gives me a 204 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,360 really good idea too. Because if they've run a 205 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,920 marathon before, I compare that to like what their time was for 206 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,600 their, that time Trout half marathon 3 or 4 weeks before 207 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:17,040 their previous marathon. And if they haven't, you know, 208 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,080 I'd go more or less by the predictor table. 209 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,080 But I take into account like if there's somebody who, who tends 210 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,480 to have less, you know, less endurance or more endurance. 211 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,360 OK, that makes sense. What are your thoughts on the 212 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:31,480 formula that's floating around on there for a marathon 213 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:33,080 prediction time? Well, there's two different 214 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,880 ones, right? There's a Yasso 800 formula 215 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:42,080 where you run 8 * 800, and that number of the average 800 meters 216 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,160 is supposedly your marathon prediction. 217 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:49,360 And another one, yeah, is the doubling up the half marathon 218 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:51,520 time and adding eight to 10 minutes to it. 219 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:53,000 Oh, So what what are my thoughts? 220 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:58,280 Yeah, you know that they yeah, yeah, yesus 8 hundreds. 221 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:02,320 I mean, I think it's, it's a cool thing, but I'm not a firm 222 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:07,200 believer in that from my own experience and from the 223 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:11,920 experience of of many athletes who I've coached, as a lot of 224 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,720 athletes tend to have, especially if if you're younger, 225 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:20,280 tend to have a lot of speed. But the marathon is, is it's a 226 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,960 completely different beast. Even then, like, you know, half 227 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,240 marathon, 1/2 marathon is, is very manageable. 228 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,680 But a marathon, more than any other race, really depends. 229 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,080 You know, it's one of the things we're, we're, you know, focusing 230 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:36,200 on how you pace it. If you don't pace it right, it, 231 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:40,600 it, it's going to be much more painful, much more of a physical 232 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,440 and mental struggle those last few miles than it has to be. 233 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,640 And you know, that's why you need a coach to help you, you 234 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,440 not only come up with a realistic goal pace, but also 235 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,360 with a pace plan so that you don't start too fast. 236 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,880 And I want to talk about that. And then the 10th, add 8 to 10 237 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,000 minutes to your half marathon. Oh, double it and add 8 to 10 238 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,520 minutes. I mean, that is, I think a lot 239 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,400 of runners do that. I mean, I think that's a A, but 240 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,960 it, it depends on how long you've been running for and also 241 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:10,800 what your range is. I mean, it's different. 242 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,480 You're going to run like a three hour, you know, or 4 hour 243 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,560 marathon. And again, it depends on, on. 244 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,840 Yeah, what kind are you somebody who tends to to have more 245 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:26,880 endurance and how well you've paced it, which if, if I could 246 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,720 jump into that for a second. What happens in a marathon, 247 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,200 Letty is we arrive, I mean, you know, from all the marathons 248 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:38,240 you've run, the gun goes off and all that pent up excitement is 249 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,800 finally being released, right. And you're like, you know, I've, 250 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,240 you know, I've started, you know, you've overcome everything 251 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,720 you had to just to get to the start line and, and you're 252 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:49,200 surrounded by everybody else who's also super excited. 253 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:53,480 And most runners, at least if you know from like the, the, 254 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:57,400 the, the runners I've coached that and, and all my reading, 255 00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:59,640 most runners tend to start too fast. 256 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,240 So even though you're in a corral right wave of people who 257 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:04,560 are going to run more or less at your pace, you're also 258 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:06,280 surrounded people who are starting too fast. 259 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,760 Your legs are really rested because you've tapered. 260 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:16,360 So it's so easy to, to, it's in other words, it's difficult not 261 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:20,200 to start too fast, right? Because I think so you look at 262 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,880 your Garmin, you know, your average pace or the, the time 263 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:24,800 you caught through your last mile or two and you're like, 264 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:30,320 whoa, you know, I'm ahead of my, my average goal pace, which can 265 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,320 actually make you feel like, you know, excited, like, oh, you 266 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:35,280 know, I'm feeling so good. So I'm putting money in the 267 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:36,800 bank. I'm going to crush my goal. 268 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:42,040 But it's not important how you feel right then and and it's not 269 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,040 important to run fast right then. 270 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,640 I mean, trust me, because I've done it both ways. 271 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:51,280 The important thing is to, it's going to feel hard anyway, those 272 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:54,080 a few miles, regardless of how you run it. 273 00:15:55,120 --> 00:16:00,280 But if you pace it right, if you're patient and disciplined 274 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:05,120 and confident, because it takes a lot of confidence to, to run 275 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:11,040 what, what, what I suggest, which is 10 to 15 seconds slower 276 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:16,320 than your goal average pace for the, for the 1st about 5 miles. 277 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,920 And and then to still hold back through, through like throughout 278 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,520 the first half. So it takes a little part 279 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,320 because initially like you're going to see lots of people, 280 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,680 everybody like going ahead of you, right? 281 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,720 I mean, I personally have had that experience like both ways. 282 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:38,840 So coming off my, my 2:58 that I did ran a couple of months 283 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:43,080 before I turned 50 in in 22,022. A couple of months later I ran 284 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:44,840 Berlin. So I'm like, OK, I can run a sub 285 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,360 three marathon. But like, you know, letty, no 286 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,800 training cycle is ideal. And that one wasn't as good of a 287 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,200 training cycle. And I was dealing with a hip 288 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,520 injury, which I, I, I still had like towing the start line, but 289 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:00,240 I was like, OK, I can run a sub three. 290 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,960 It's not what you can do. It's, that's why looking at the 291 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,440 training cycle is so important. How, what pace you've you've 292 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,240 held, how consistently you've trained, what pace you've held 293 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:13,119 for your, the quality sections of your quality runs, what pace 294 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,960 you've, what average pace you've, you've done the long 295 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,240 runs in. So I knew the training cycle 296 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,640 hadn't gone well and yet I started with the, the, the three 297 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,720 hour pacer or Pacers. It felt hard right from the 298 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:27,640 start. And, and if it feels hard from 299 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,520 the start, you're in trouble. And that's a red flag. 300 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,840 And so at the halfway I had to let them go. 301 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:39,280 My legs felt very, very heavy. And the rest of it was, you 302 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,840 know, they do it kilometers, right, which is kilometer by 303 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,960 kilometer. What was just a, a struggle, 304 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,480 physical and, and mental. And I mean, my positive split 305 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,000 wasn't terrible. I did a three O 7 from, you 306 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:55,400 know, 130 and the three O 7. But like in contrast, last fall 307 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,000 in Sydney, I did what I what I suggested. 308 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,160 I let everybody go ahead the first few miles, like everybody 309 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,120 was going ahead. But it's a much better feeling 310 00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:05,800 than at the halfway like in Berlin. 311 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,360 That's when like hundreds of runners started passing me, 312 00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:10,360 which is a really discouraging feeling. 313 00:18:10,360 --> 00:18:13,160 So I was confident in Sydney. I was like, I'm just going to, 314 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:17,000 I'm going to do my 15 seconds per mile slower than go average 315 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,040 pace. I know I'll feel better later. 316 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:24,120 And, and a negative split. I did 133, so a lot slower than 317 00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:28,320 my half in Berlin, but then 132 and I passed so many people 318 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,280 those last year miles and felt like so much stronger. 319 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:36,520 And, and, and I stuck to my, my pace plan, which is, is, you 320 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:40,920 know, yeah, I, I formulate a specific pace plan for each of 321 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:45,640 my athletes, you know, basically based on what their goal average 322 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,280 pace is and how they want to run it. 323 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,240 And and the course profile too, of course. 324 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,080 Yeah, that's amazing. I mean, it's amazing how 325 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:57,240 different something feels. I was talking to a friend of 326 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:02,680 mine who had a significant, huge PR in his last marathon, and he 327 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,680 also mentioned that the first half he held back so much to 328 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,760 where he literally felt like he was cruising and didn't start 329 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:11,800 straining until the last 8 miles. 330 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,920 And it went wonderfully, which also at the same time, you know, 331 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,520 to play devil's advocate here, makes you wonder how much faster 332 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,720 could you have gone When you're finishing and you're happy, then 333 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,480 it's almost like, well, maybe you could have gone a little 334 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,360 faster, but it's such a fine line between that. 335 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,720 I mean, I don't think you're, I mean, nobody's going to hold 336 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:35,640 back in those last, you know, those last few miles. 337 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:37,760 You're you're going to push a TARDIS game because you know 338 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,280 they're going to be feel the hardest, but you know, you're 339 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:46,080 getting so close. And yeah, so if if you you're 340 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,720 just going to feel stronger if you hold back in the first half. 341 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:53,080 I mean, you can definitely starting at half start to like 342 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,720 pick it up to where, OK, this feels hard to maintain, but, but 343 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,000 you, you do it with confidence, right? 344 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:02,360 Like, you know, but I'm going, you know, I'm going to be able 345 00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:03,400 to do it. You've picked up the pace. 346 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:05,760 So it's going to feel harder because you've picked up the 347 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,520 pace and the intensity of the effort, you know, is starting to 348 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,160 feel hard anyway, because that fatigue is accumulating. 349 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:18,520 Most they do say that most records are are are done with a 350 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:22,440 slight positive split, but most people say they're they're PRS, 351 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,960 you know, actually have a a negative. 352 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,880 A slight negative split. And it's, it's also about like 353 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,480 how you're going to feel those, those last few, you know, few 354 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,520 miles. I mean, it's, yeah, it's a good 355 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:39,400 feeling to, to, to not be struggling and to have run it, 356 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:43,160 you know, evenly, you know, instead of like slowing down and 357 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,400 it being, you know, it, it you're, you're hurting so much 358 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,280 that even though you're slowing down that you just want to get 359 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,480 to the finish line and you almost don't care about your 360 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:55,080 average pace and your, your time and your place anymore. 361 00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:59,320 Yeah, no, absolutely. It's such a such a hard thing to 362 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,000 do. I guess with that, I want to 363 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:06,680 know if you tell your athletes to have A goals, B goals, C 364 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,800 goals, and do you think that having those secondary goals 365 00:21:10,120 --> 00:21:14,080 could kind of defeat or kind of nip it in the butt? 366 00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:18,880 Because then they don't want to go for the whole thing and might 367 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,800 just kind of cop out by taking the B or C goal. 368 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,040 Because I can see myself absolutely doing that where I 369 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,240 have an easier C goal and then mid race when it gets hard 370 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,120 mentally be like, I'll just go for the C goal. 371 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,920 Yeah, I see what you're saying. Yeah, that, that that's an 372 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,360 interesting, you know, question. I mean, you know, as athletes, 373 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,560 yes, we're really happy when we've achieved a goal because we 374 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,200 set a goal that we think is going to be difficult to 375 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,960 achieve. And hopefully that drives you in 376 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,040 your training to push well, to be consistent and to push when 377 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,680 you need to, to push and try to run fast. 378 00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:55,320 But we so we're happy if we achieve a goal and even happier 379 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:59,400 if we surprise ourselves. But we, we do, even as long 380 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:06,560 distance runners get even happier if our time is a, a PR 381 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:12,280 or a course PR or like under, like a certain under certain 382 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,040 time ending in zero. Like for example, I think in 383 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,120 London you did a 329, right? Was it 329? 384 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,720 Yeah. And I think this, there's 385 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,360 definitely something to be said for a time that's just above or 386 00:22:24,360 --> 00:22:27,080 just below a time ending 0. So it's important when you're 387 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,080 running the race think, OK, I, you know, if I don't go under a 388 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:34,720 certain, a certain time, that's my, you know, that's my, my, my, 389 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,520 a goal or my Beagle, you know, I'm going to be a little 390 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,880 disappointed. And more importantly, I don't 391 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,480 want to think after as well. You know, I could have been like 392 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,320 mentally stronger when I, you know, when I gave myself the 393 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:53,080 option of, of pushing harder and being willing to hurt more. 394 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,960 Because basically it really comes down to that. 395 00:22:55,960 --> 00:23:00,600 Are you willing to continue to hurt us as much or push through 396 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,680 even more pain and discomfort to maintain the pace or pick up the 397 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,280 pace or or not? I mean, we all have like our, 398 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:10,040 our limits based on our capabilities and how our 399 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,760 training cycle went. But a lot of it is what you tell 400 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:18,200 yourself are, are you willing to, to, to, to push through more 401 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:19,880 pain? Because your goal is really 402 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,280 important to you. And so I think it's important to 403 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,840 choose that a stretch, stretch goal that will make you really, 404 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:31,800 really happy, the B goal and, and, and, you know, still be, 405 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,720 you know, super happy. And then the seagull, the more 406 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,600 realistic 1 so that you leave like satisfied that you did 407 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:42,560 achieve something. Yeah, I, I, I, I, I definitely. 408 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,360 And, and then let you know the, the importance of each, like 409 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,680 drive you here throughout the, the race. 410 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,040 And, and you might, yeah, you might even surprise yourself. 411 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:56,040 Yeah, no, that's 100% true. I also think it's true that, you 412 00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:00,000 know, you where runs depend on your fitness. 413 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,040 I talked to CJ Albertson in an interview and he said something 414 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,600 that really struck with me when I asked him if he was nervous 415 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,400 going up to the starting line. And he said, yeah, of course 416 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:13,120 you're a little bit nervous. But he says whatever fitness you 417 00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:16,840 have, basically, I'm not quoting, but in essence, 418 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,280 basically the fitness that you have, you have. 419 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,520 There's nothing that can really take that from you. 420 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,440 So if I go into a race and I know, OK, I've had a very non 421 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,720 existent training cycle and this and this went wrong, I go into 422 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,120 race and then obviously I'm not going to go for a crazy pace 423 00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:35,080 because it's not going to happen. 424 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,600 But if you're really fit, then there's very little that can 425 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,120 actually throw you off of that path, right? 426 00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:45,160 Even if it rains, even if you know the sun comes through, then 427 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,120 obviously your heart rate will go higher. 428 00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:52,240 But if you're really fit, then your goal, you've worked towards 429 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,840 it and you're going to get it if you run the correct pace. 430 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,440 Yes, yeah. And and it is like, like you're 431 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,040 saying that that last part is key. 432 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:05,720 You can you first you put in the training, of course, to build 433 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,320 their fitness in different ways with different kinds of training 434 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:14,560 sessions, but you really whether it comes together or not is so 435 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,200 for the marathon is so dependent on that on that correct pacing. 436 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,480 I mean, you can't not be throw away in months of training, but 437 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,280 you're going to run not only you're going to feel stronger at 438 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,160 the end if you pace it right, in other words, realistically and 439 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,240 wisely, but you are going to run. 440 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:34,360 You're going to run a faster time if you start too fast, the 441 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:39,680 the amount that you slowed down by it is going to like more than 442 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,280 than than count. Not only going to feel is it 443 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,440 going to feel much harder than it needs to, but it's going to 444 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,200 more than counteract how the money you put in the bank or the 445 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,040 time you put in the bank initially, if for for like so 446 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:57,040 many reasons, because when you start to fast you you start to 447 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,480 tap into your glycogen stores much more quickly. 448 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,480 Laddie, you know, you can only store a certain amount of of 449 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,600 glycogen, but being in a by starting, by starting even just 450 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,120 a little bit too fast, you're, you're not conserving nearly as 451 00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:13,280 much glycogen as if you start slower. 452 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,000 And then you're using much higher percentage of your energy 453 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,040 from fat burning. And so that glycogen will be 454 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,400 there for it to keep running more strongly towards the end of 455 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,920 the marathon. But, but also you break down a 456 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,080 lot more muscle by by starting too fast, but by holding back, 457 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,520 you're like preventing, you know, each of these things from 458 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,320 happening. So it's, it's important to be 459 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:41,120 confident in, in your pace plan, which ideally a, a, a coach 460 00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:44,240 helps you come up with. And ideally what I do with my 461 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,440 athletes is just an interactive thing. 462 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,440 Because if I give you a, a pace plan, lady, and I'm like, OK, 463 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,040 this is what I think you should do based on how your, your, your 464 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:58,720 training went, including how your long runs and, and, and 465 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,040 course elevation. And then we tweak it like as it 466 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,880 gets closer, you know, in case there's last minute injury or, 467 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,320 or, or illness again, I know you weren't feeling well going into 468 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:11,160 London, but if I give it to you and you don't like, you know, 469 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,360 you don't completely believe in it, you're not going to follow 470 00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:16,640 it, right? I want the athlete to be 471 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,400 confident in that, in that pace plan. 472 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,480 And and so, so I mean, it's a very interactive thing and I 473 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,640 spend a lot of time discussing even each mile because then the 474 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,400 athlete, it helps the athlete. We look at the course map, we 475 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,240 look at the course profile. It helps the athletes start to 476 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:36,200 already imagine the race, right? It's, it's the, the first part 477 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:41,400 or, or part of visualization. And, and you know, so it, they, 478 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,440 they help me come up with, I say, I say, OK, do you think you 479 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,320 can run, you know, this mob given this elevation, you know, 480 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,760 at this point in the race, you know, like in, you know, 77717 481 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,080 pace. And then if, if we're doing like 482 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,680 an AB or C goal, you know, the pace plan might have like a 483 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,800 range on it or like, you know, maybe between, you know, 484 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:05,360 whatever, 7:30 to 7:35. Or they might even wear like 3 485 00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:09,920 pace band bracelets because we can print like a, you know, 486 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,680 print like the, the, the table and then, you know, laminate it 487 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,320 to make like a bracelet, you know, that you can wear, you 488 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,040 know, color-coded. But I want the athlete to, to 489 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,280 study the pace plan after we've talked about it, you know, to 490 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,720 and to feel confident. And in fact, in Boston recently, 491 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,680 I was studying my own pace plan on the bus the whole way from 492 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,200 Hopkinton to to Boston. And this woman from China was 493 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:34,600 looking at me. She's like, wow, you're really, 494 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,880 really serious. You're a serious runner. 495 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,960 And you know, and then, you know, I superseded my, my A, my 496 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:45,360 B and my, my C, my A goal was to I had a lot of injuries. 497 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:49,200 This training cycle was to go under 311 and I finished in like 498 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:56,440 3 O 950, which for me was like a course PR which you know, I 499 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,400 like. You know, as we get older, those 500 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,520 are extra sweet because we expect to slow down right. 501 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,560 So the you know, I have to get to keep getting faster or deal 502 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,640 to achieve a faster time is yeah is extra exciting. 503 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,640 That's amazing. That's super fast, especially 504 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,160 for a course like Boston. I think I can run a through or 505 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,960 could run a 3 or 9 in the past on a very, very downhill 506 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:20,920 marathon. So that's really, really cool. 507 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:26,160 But let me ask you about that. You know, the course profile. 508 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,760 When you give someone a race strategy, obviously you have to, 509 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,520 well, inform yourself about where your runners are going to 510 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,760 be running their race. And then what about the fact 511 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,680 that some runners say, for example, I live in Florida, I 512 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,760 would be your athlete and I'm running something like New York. 513 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,520 We barely even have bridges that are, you know, tiny bit of 514 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,720 elevation. So you don't really have that. 515 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,760 How do you coach you're athletes that don't have hills for a 516 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,560 strategic course? Oh, that don't have hills like 517 00:29:55,560 --> 00:30:00,480 where they run? Yeah, well, they could can do. 518 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,680 I mean, most people, well a lot of runners hate treadmills, 519 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:06,320 right. But you can simulate, you know, 520 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,240 hills on a treadmill. So if you don't have any hills 521 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,080 and you can't, you know, drive to where you can run hills and 522 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:18,080 you can do that on a you can do hills on a treadmill that yeah, 523 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,160 that is, I mean, you want to be able to get your yourself used 524 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,440 to elevation changes. So even though you know, the, 525 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,840 the, the treadmill is often called the treadmill, that that 526 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,040 is what I suggest. And, you know, and in terms of, 527 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,000 you know, the, the temperatures too, I mean, if I've definitely 528 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,400 have had races where I travel and I go and race where it's 529 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,920 like much hotter than I than I trained in. 530 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,680 So really the only thing to do there is to acclimatize. 531 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,160 If you, if you can get there like a little bit early and just 532 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,680 do a couple of runs, you know, in the hotter, you know, in the, 533 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,360 in the hotter temperature. And then you know what? 534 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,720 What is so important then during a race that's hotter than you've 535 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,880 been training in is to as much as possible at the water, the 536 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,440 aid stations like pour water off your head, over the back of your 537 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,080 neck to prevent your body from overheating. 538 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,200 Yeah, I guess it's the same along the same lines as altitude 539 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,720 training, right? If we go to Kenya and then there 540 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,520 we are and it's just really high altitude, your body reacts 541 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:19,800 different. It takes a long time to 542 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:21,400 acclimate. And then I guess that's why we 543 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,640 also saw the Olympic trial runners go into Orlando a little 544 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,560 bit ahead of time just to the climate. 545 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,000 Yeah, if you have that luxury where you can go earlier, it's 546 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,000 extra nights at a hotel, so not everybody can do that. 547 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:34,480 Yeah. No, that's very true. 548 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:39,000 And more fortunately, most of these, most of the runners for 549 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:43,200 the Olympic trials that were close to winning it, I think 550 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,880 they are professional runners. So hopefully they're sponsors. 551 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,280 But yeah, for average person, that's probably not going to 552 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,000 happen. I guess. 553 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:56,160 Let me go on and ask you the last question that I have for 554 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:57,520 you. When we talk about pacing, 555 00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,160 obviously we're talking numbers, numbers, numbers. 556 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:03,320 But beyond finishing times, what are some other metrics or cues 557 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,440 that you encourage your runners to monitor during your race, 558 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,000 during their race so they can ensure that they have a 559 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,000 sustainable race? Oh. 560 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:13,800 OK. Yeah, that's a good, good 561 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:18,080 question too. So they've, they have this pace 562 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:22,040 plan with them that was based on a it's a realistic base plan 563 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,000 based on their current fitness level. 564 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:29,040 But it is important to pay attention to how you feel 565 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,280 because of race day conditions, right. 566 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:35,240 It could be it it really hot, very windy, even though we've 567 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,760 tried to tweak the pace plan a couple if necessarily a couple 568 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,320 of days before, but based on you know, you know how how they're 569 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,840 feeling during the race, because how you feel, of course, is is 570 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,160 important. There are three things I have my 571 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:53,800 athlete pay attention to and in some cases a fourth one is their 572 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:58,760 their breathing because you should be able to during a 573 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:03,400 marathon up until mile. Like I said, there's the famous 574 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,480 and true adage. The marathon starts at mile 20 575 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,920 where you're really laying it all out there and pushing as 576 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:11,400 hard as you can for the last 10K. 577 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,440 You should be able to up until then have short conversations 578 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:20,160 with people you know. Not like a not a long one, but 579 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,520 like encouraging others along the way. 580 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:27,880 You know, which I love to do. And if you're not, if you, if 581 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:32,920 your breathing is like labored or fast you or even a little bit 582 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:37,800 labored or fast, you should slow down and slow down a bit and 583 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,120 tell yourself, OK, I'm going to I'm going to hold back a little 584 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:45,080 bit until like that next landmark that I see or, or the 585 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,120 next mile mark. And then I'll reassess. 586 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,000 A second thing. I have them pay attention. 587 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,960 My athlete pay attention to is the effort level. 588 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:58,320 And so even though one of the things I say the most often to 589 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:03,160 my athletes is you can never tell yourself that this feels 590 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,920 hard or that it's going to be hard later. 591 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:11,320 And don't pay attention to how how it feels, but focus on 592 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:15,880 running strongly and relaxed and telling yourself you're positive 593 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,360 and adrenaline thoughts instead of to how it feels. 594 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,080 You know, because you're going to be vaguely aware it's not 595 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,639 it's going to feel, it's going to feel hard even though you're 596 00:34:26,639 --> 00:34:28,239 not going to. I don't want you, an athlete to 597 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,679 pay attention to how it feels if the effort is starting to feel 598 00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:35,480 like a struggle and like just training to keep up that pace. 599 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:40,679 Also, I, I tell my athlete beforehand, then slow down a bit 600 00:34:40,679 --> 00:34:44,080 off the pace plan and again until the next landmark until 601 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,320 the next mile and then reassess. It might be the extra bit that 602 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:51,760 you need to, to recharge and then you want to pay attention 603 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,280 to, to like that fatigue in your legs. 604 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,160 Yes, the, the, the fatigue is going to build during the 605 00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,640 marathon. The intensity of the effort is 606 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,800 going to increase even to maintain the same pace. 607 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,800 But if that fatigue is starting to sink in like early, you need 608 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,480 to you need to slow down a little bit. 609 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,000 And again, it could like recharge you, you know enough to 610 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:15,920 be able to pick it up a little bit later. 611 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,760 Those those are the three main things. 612 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:25,440 I mean, some of my athletes really like heart rate and they 613 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,560 pay attention to that a lot during their runs. 614 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:34,120 So if if they do and they know to break them, they know what 615 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,800 the effort segments of runs and also they know what it normally 616 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:40,440 is during a marathon, which for most athletes is going to build 617 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,240 towards the end. But if they they see during a 618 00:35:43,240 --> 00:35:47,400 marathon that it's it's already high earlier on, then I'm going 619 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,920 to want them to again, we discussed this before to, to if 620 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,200 they're looking at heart rate to slow down a bit so that they 621 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,520 don't crash and burn, you know, later. 622 00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,280 So that doesn't become a a painful struggle at the end to 623 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:02,600 to hold a pace that they want to. 624 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,840 It makes so much sense and then also it makes sense in the in 625 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,360 the in a way that we are not completely reliant on our 626 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,440 watches all the time because, you know, back in the day people 627 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,080 weren't and so now we totally are. 628 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,720 But it would probably make sense to get a better field feel on 629 00:36:18,720 --> 00:36:23,040 how we perceive our effort to only help us to kind of stay 630 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,640 away from the watch. Yeah, yeah, right. 631 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:30,640 I mean, I, yeah, you know, and, and yeah, I, I, I like people to 632 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,440 go by feel, you know, more. And I do want to, you know, 633 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:39,480 stress in the different way that I mean, challenging ourselves, 634 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,160 challenging yourself to run a marathon in a certain time, 635 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:46,480 which most runners do, is a tough challenge already. 636 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,920 But if you don't pace it right, it makes those last few miles a 637 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,960 really rough experience, harder than it has to be. 638 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,320 There's so much value trust, because I gave an, I gave just 639 00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,360 two examples. I've done it both ways. 640 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:04,240 There's so much value in, in being patient and holding back 641 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,200 those, those, those first holding back a lot, the 1st 5 or 642 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,800 6 miles and then still holding back through the half. 643 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,120 And it's very valuable to have a coach help you come up with a, a 644 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,680 pace plan. So which adds to your confidence 645 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,880 in sticking to, to that. And yeah, you, you don't want it 646 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,000 to get struggled with how you feel later and you're going to 647 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:28,160 slow down if you don't hold back and, and stick to a, a, a wise 648 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:32,320 pace plan, you're going to slow down a lot more than you need 649 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,400 to, you know, compared to if you do. 650 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,080 And if you do stick to the pace plan, you might find that you, 651 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,720 you're able to like not only feel stronger, but even run 652 00:37:39,720 --> 00:37:43,200 faster that last 10K, you know, which I've done a few times. 653 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,400 I've had a couple of my athletes do a few times. 654 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,280 And, and I've also had my athletes start too fast and then 655 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,880 the wheels come off in a way that they just get slower and 656 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,360 slower at the end and the time isn't as fast as they, you know, 657 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,320 as they could have done if they had pasted right and stuck to 658 00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:58,960 the pace plan that we had come up. 659 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,600 With yeah, no, absolutely. That makes sense. 660 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,640 Rebecca, thank you so much for your time. 661 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:08,160 And then for our listeners, where can they find you if 662 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,840 they're interested in what you do and potentially coaching with 663 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:12,440 you? Oh. 664 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:16,760 Yeah, absolutely. Yes, they can go to my website 665 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:21,640 whichisconqueringchallenges.com, but it's all about right. 666 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:27,040 And or they can they can go to my Instagram, which is at 667 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,680 Conquering Challenges or they can e-mail me at 668 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:34,520 coachrebecca16@gmail.com. Perfect. 669 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:39,720 Thank you so much and I wish you the best for everything else. 670 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,680 Thank you, Lydia. We're recovering well with your 671 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:46,360 marathon and from your marathon, and we'll talk soon. 672 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,680 Thank you, Coach Rebecca so much for speaking with me. 673 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,800 This was very insightful and for anyone that is interested in 674 00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,520 reaching out to you, we're going to have Rebecca's contact 675 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,720 information just like we said in our show notes. 676 00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:07,600 So get your pacing down so you can be your best on marathon 677 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:09,200 day. Exactly. 678 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:11,480 And with that. Have a great week of running. 679 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,880 Thanks for tuning in. For more information, go to 680 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:22,600 www.marathonrunningpodcast.com or check us out on all channels.