1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,720 You're listening to episode 302 of the Marathon Running Podcast. 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,840 In this episode, we're going to talk about polarization versus 3 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:10,520 pyramid training. Welcome to the Marathon Running 4 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:13,400 Podcast by Marathon Journal. Join us every week for the 5 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,040 insights and inspiration you need to get from the starting 6 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:18,120 line to the finish line and beyond. 7 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:28,120 Hey runners, and welcome to episode 302. 8 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:29,840 My name is Letty. My name is Ryan. 9 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:34,160 And we are back with the second of three episodes where we talk 10 00:00:34,160 --> 00:00:38,560 about research studies and interpret them to make running 11 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,440 better for you guys. So what's in store for us this 12 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:42,280 week? Yes. 13 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,600 So we're going to talk to the same guests that we had on last 14 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:50,160 week, Arch Tirochalvam from Performance Physique, who joined 15 00:00:50,160 --> 00:00:53,840 me to breakdown why this research is game changing when 16 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,120 it comes to polarizing your runs versus the pyramid model. 17 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,000 We will talk about what the pyramid model is because we do 18 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,960 not talk about that a lot. Everyone knows polarization, 19 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:06,800 doing easy runs, easy and hard runs hard and not running much 20 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:08,560 in the middle. But nobody talks about the 21 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:12,040 pyramid model, which builds a broad base of easy miles with 22 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:13,840 moderate doses of threshold work. 23 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:16,280 And Arch will help me to find that even better. 24 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,440 I think that's like a hot concept that was, it's hard for 25 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:20,960 me to grasp, but I think it's cool that as I'm learning more 26 00:01:20,960 --> 00:01:25,040 about it and it can probably be applicable in lots of sports 27 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,400 besides running, which is the fact that you don't have to 28 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:33,640 always train for peak or Max. And you probably are better off 29 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:38,680 doing submax or lower level stuff most frequently and then 30 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,480 just kind of teasing or going to those thresholds occasionally, 31 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:44,160 which is interesting. And it's kind of cool. 32 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,640 I think it's a good way so you don't overuse injuries, so you 33 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:49,920 don't get overuse injuries. And also mentally. 34 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,440 Probably easier than trying to go all out all the time. 35 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,720 Yes, that is very true, but who is to say that there is not 36 00:01:55,720 --> 00:02:00,440 another method that might equally work for another set of 37 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:02,600 people? More than one way to skin a cat. 38 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,000 Yeah, I don't like that it's animal cruelty. 39 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:06,760 But anyway, so you know what I mean? 40 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,320 There's different methods and different, different strokes for 41 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:11,920 different folks Better. OK. 42 00:02:11,920 --> 00:02:14,320 So that's what we're going to talk about with this and I don't 43 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:16,360 want to give away too much of it. 44 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:18,160 All right, well, let's get into it then. 45 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,120 All right, so without any further ado, I'm not going to 46 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:25,640 share my conversation with Arch. All right, so I'm back on with 47 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,680 Arts to Rotel Mom Arts. Thank you so much for joining me 48 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:30,280 again. It's an absolute pleasure. 49 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,840 Thanks for having me back Letty. Yes, absolutely. 50 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,560 And last week we had you on and spoke about how much running is 51 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,400 Too much is very insightful and there is a lot to learn. 52 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,200 So if you have not heard that episode, you can go back to it. 53 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,240 But let's talk about this week's episode. 54 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,640 This week we're going to revisit the topic of polarized training, 55 00:02:50,640 --> 00:02:54,120 but from a different take because there is a study that 56 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,080 you're going to tell us about, and we're very excited for it 57 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,320 because we're absolutely nerdy when it comes to these studies. 58 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,280 But before we do that, let's do a quick introduction 59 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,360 reintroduction so we know who we're talking to and where your 60 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:07,240 expertise comes from. Absolutely. 61 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,800 So I'm Performance Coach Archie, I'm the founder of Performance 62 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,800 Physique and for the last 20 years I've been working in 63 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,280 sports and nutrition from a really very background. 64 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,400 A lot of my work has actually been in nutrition and then I've 65 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,360 moved across a variety of different sports, writing 66 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,360 university degrees in sports science. 67 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,880 And my, my fundamental passion though, has always been in 68 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:29,880 running. So this is what I, I really do 69 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:32,040 day in day out is, is running coaching. 70 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,160 But the most important thing for me is that everything that we do 71 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:38,280 is underpinned by science to make sure that we make the right 72 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,320 decisions. I love it and I love the topic 73 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:44,040 of having those polarized runs. Everybody, at least in the 74 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,800 United States, I'm sure in Europe as well, talks about the 75 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:49,240 8020 rule, which is the rule of thumb. 76 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:50,840 Last time we were talking about the 10% rule. 77 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:55,120 This time, you know, polarizing around 80% has to be easy and 78 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,240 20% fast. And there is that gap in the 79 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:02,320 middle of pacing that we don't really have business running and 80 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:06,560 depending on our paces. Yes, really nice introduction to 81 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:10,200 the study there actually, yeah. So this this follows the the 82 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:14,000 theme really of, of identifying some really key pieces of 83 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,320 literature, some scientific journal articles that are 84 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:19,920 published in the last six months, all about running and 85 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,960 polarized training is one of those aspects which we're very 86 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,320 familiar with. And this article maybe took it 87 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,120 down a couple of new insightful roads really. 88 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,720 So what, what I would say actually with with this article, 89 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:39,120 as opposed to our previous paper which was on 5200 participants, 90 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,560 you know, absolutely ginormous paper. 91 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:45,400 This was a single study. So when we look at research, we 92 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:49,440 look at the strength of a study, We look at that from a, how they 93 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,240 constructed their methodology and who's publishing the article 94 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,800 B, if it's a single paper, if it's a randomized controlled 95 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:58,880 trial, which means that that the way they conducted the 96 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,240 experiment was very strict. So we can get some really good 97 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,960 results whether it is observation or whether it we 98 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,400 just, so we just sat back, whether it was a review or meta 99 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,080 analysis, these are all lots of complicated terms. 100 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:10,720 This one falls right in the middle. 101 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,560 So this was a randomized control trial. 102 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:15,280 That's fantastic. That's really good. 103 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:20,560 It was of 120 recreational runners, which again is quite a 104 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,720 large sample. It's not touching that 5201, but 105 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,560 you're pretty much never going to get a study that large. 106 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:31,560 But it is just a single paper. So it is just one experiment and 107 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:36,280 the rule of thumb in science is that we never just throw all our 108 00:05:36,280 --> 00:05:38,440 eggs in one basket over one study. 109 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:42,040 We have to see this recreated and replicated again and again 110 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,160 for it to truly mean something. So I think that's a really 111 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,640 important part to just caveat before we dive in here. 112 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,360 So with that, how do we put that in our brains? 113 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,200 Like, are we from here and out, whatever you're saying, taking 114 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,400 it all with a grain of salt or how does that play out? 115 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,880 Yeah, I think it's really important actually that we are 116 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,760 critical in our approach of everything that we read. 117 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:07,880 That doesn't mean you, you do what a toddler does and say why 118 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:09,840 after every single sentence that you read. 119 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,160 But it does mean that, OK, this is some really useful 120 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,560 information, The people who have written this and done the 121 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,480 experiment are incredibly intelligent and very, very well 122 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,920 skilled in what they do. But it does also mean that, OK, 123 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,800 it's been done once I can listen to it and I can look at it. 124 00:06:26,840 --> 00:06:29,800 But I'm not just going to say my whole training has to change 125 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,720 because of this one study. Let a few more studies come out. 126 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,480 You and I will sit down again and I'll, I'll come and say, 127 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:37,200 yeah, it looks good now go ahead. 128 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,400 But I think it's really important whenever we look at 129 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:41,520 any research, we just particularly if it comes up on 130 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:43,520 social media, we don't just think we have to change what 131 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:44,880 we're doing. If you're doing something which 132 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,560 feels right and you haven't had any injuries and you're making 133 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,120 progress, you're probably on on the right line for you. 134 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,360 Perfect. Thanks for explaining that. 135 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,800 And with that, who conducted the study and reviewed it? 136 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:00,560 Absolutely, yes. So this this was by a a study 137 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:04,280 group led by Gang Qin. I think that's El Jin. 138 00:07:04,280 --> 00:07:06,760 I think that's how it's pronounced and it was in the 139 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,200 Journal of Nature. So it is actually one of the 140 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:13,200 largest, most powerful research journals out there. 141 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,000 Kind of deliberate that the both papers that are presented have 142 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,280 come from really credible sources, obviously. 143 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:20,920 But even though it's an individual study, you know, it's 144 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,360 been published in the Nature journal that gives us a lot of 145 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,240 confidence when we when we look at this piece. 146 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,160 And it was again, from the last six months to really up to date. 147 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,040 So when we're we're looking at their, their title, I'm going to 148 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,480 read this title out because initially when I came across 149 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:38,160 this piece of research, I thought this has nothing to do 150 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:39,760 with sport. I don't want to, I don't 151 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:41,480 actually want to read it. And it was only when I actually 152 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,600 started looking into it, I thought, oh, this is actually 153 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:46,920 quite relevant. So this was machine learning 154 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,680 based personalized training models for optimizing marathon 155 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,600 performance through pyramid or polarized training intensity 156 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,760 distributions. It's a mouthful, it is a long 157 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,080 title. And effectively what they're 158 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,320 saying is that they have developed an algorithm, you 159 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:06,880 know, this is when we're talking about AI, whether we should be 160 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,720 using AI to, to develop training programs, etcetera. 161 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,560 They have used AI to sort the data. 162 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,600 So to go through all the research that they've they've 163 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,360 accumulated and help develop a pattern effectively from it. 164 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:24,160 And what they're really looking at is the two different distinct 165 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:29,120 models of marathon training being the 8020 rule that you are 166 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,200 familiar with, that I am familiar with and millions of 167 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,880 other individuals are familiar with, or the pyramid pyramid 168 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:39,880 model, which does touch on each area of your Physiology. 169 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:44,320 So when we look at pyramid, then the pyramid model basically says 170 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,600 that you are going to run in every single zone. 171 00:08:47,680 --> 00:08:51,320 You're going to spend time working away through zone one 172 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,360 right up to zone 5. And when you get nearer Zone 5, 173 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:58,200 you'll spend shorter periods of time in each individual session 174 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,920 and as a percentage of your total mileage as well running in 175 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,080 Zone 5. And then you'll work back down 176 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,880 out out of zone 5 larger durations in zone one, Zone 2 177 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,760 and that will still utilize some zone 3. 178 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,800 It will be very threshold heavy training leading to a marathon 179 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,520 and it it tends to be more graduated. 180 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,080 And that's probably the reason why it's suited those who are 181 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:23,800 more novice in their running ability. 182 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,800 Getting people to understand just how hard that 20% hard is. 183 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:29,400 I used to just think everyone could do that. 184 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:33,320 I thought that was natural. You know, when I was 1819, I 185 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,320 thought everyone when they work hard works like this. 186 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:38,880 But actually it's a particular part of the brain that you have 187 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:40,880 to get involved in. And you know, for the last 10 188 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:42,280 years I basically haven't trained. 189 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,840 So when I do train, I suddenly realise, oh, I'm really human 190 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:47,920 again. It's basically actually this, 191 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,680 this worries me that I'm about to make myself go into this 192 00:09:50,680 --> 00:09:53,440 horrible zone, whereas before I just thought that happened. 193 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:57,280 So zone or the pyramid model, getting as much time logged in 194 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,040 each of those zones, spending a lot of time in Threshold. 195 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,800 And that's the real the real difference between the two. 196 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:09,760 OK. So literally, if you look at the 197 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:14,080 zones being laid out, it does look like a pyramid on a scale 198 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,040 versus it's exactly that. It's like a reverse pyramid. 199 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:18,960 Exactly. That perfect Awesome. 200 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,320 OK, so. Historically, we've spent a lot 201 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:26,320 of time preaching the importance of understanding lactate 202 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:30,440 threshold, which can sit around Zone 3 upwards. 203 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:35,440 And we're also very recently hearing loads of messages about 204 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,800 Zone 1 and Zone 2 and then a tiny bit right at the top end. 205 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,600 20% hard work. It's really, really, really 206 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,000 interesting. When you read this paper, you 207 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:49,640 get the feeling that they have identified 1 route, 1 route to 208 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,960 marathon success. So if you spend a little bit of 209 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,640 time reading the abstract, you'll have the feeling that 210 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,840 there is one route to success. If you read the entire article, 211 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,320 you'll suddenly realize that it's a blend. 212 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,800 And there is a deep message rooted in here that depending on 213 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:09,000 who you are, these models will benefit different individuals 214 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,160 and will create slightly different adaptations. 215 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:12,960 And I'll give you those adaptations. 216 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:17,360 So polarized training, we know it improved VO2 Max. 217 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:22,760 We know that improves VO2 Max, which is one of the predictors 218 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,360 of race performance, but not not the only one. 219 00:11:25,560 --> 00:11:28,320 It is very popular at the moment to say that VO2 Max is 220 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:29,600 everything that you need to improve. 221 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:31,480 It's not, but it's a nice thing to have. 222 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,960 And we know polarized training as a result of this study, was 223 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:39,720 quite clearly better at developing a greater VO2 Max 224 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,200 than the pyramid training model, where they went through every 225 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,200 little phase and then worked back out of those phases as 226 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,240 well. They also identified in their 227 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:52,880 study that marathon performance was better generally for those 228 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,680 following a polarized training model, and they also noticed 229 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,840 that it produced similar or actual lower training stress. 230 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:04,600 So when we're talking about a a marathon, we are doing 231 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:06,440 incredibly difficult things to our body. 232 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,600 You know that there will be an argument from some people that 233 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,480 say that a marathon actually isn't very healthy because of 234 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:13,440 the different stresses that we place on our body and the 235 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:15,760 different risk factors. And therefore, if there's 236 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,720 anything we can do to reduce those risk factors, then perhaps 237 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,320 we'll we'll take those. And polarized training really 238 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,480 found that or this research found that polarized training 239 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:26,880 really did reduce those those stresses. 240 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,680 So effectively, this paper identifying that you could get 241 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,360 better important improvements within your performance in 242 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:37,080 training, at least matching what all the other training methods 243 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,040 do, if not reducing the risk associated with it. 244 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,000 So overall, sounds pretty good, right? 245 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,480 Yeah. So at this point, we're thinking 246 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,000 everything's normal. This, this doesn't really tell 247 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,360 us anything new and a lot of people will have been saying 248 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:52,880 over the last couple of years there is a risk here that we're 249 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,600 just studying men. You know, a lot of research has 250 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,200 been criticised for being male dominant. 251 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:03,840 The researchers actually used a split roughly of 55 to 45% male 252 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,720 to female. So it's relatively even as well. 253 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,240 So we're we're identifying physiological changes and what 254 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,960 they identify really is that polarised training again 255 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:16,600 developed loads in terms of mitochondria and capillarization 256 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:18,560 and fat oxidation from the easy running. 257 00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:22,000 So these things which give us a big engine and that hard running 258 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,400 episodes really helped developers neuromusically 259 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:29,160 improve our running economy and improve our our top end 260 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,920 effectively how just how fast we can go, what we're trying to 261 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,520 avoid or what polarized training is trying to avoid is murky 262 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,800 stuff, which doesn't necessarily create a lot of adaptation. 263 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,640 So being in the middle of those two, which is where most novice 264 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:46,160 runners are guilty of spending time too fast to be easy, too 265 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,760 slow to actually create a lot of change, polarized training 266 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:51,040 doesn't do that. It's it's not soft, it's really 267 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,080 strategic as in you're going to be out here and over here. 268 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,920 Now, the common misconception really here is that polarized 269 00:13:57,920 --> 00:13:59,880 training doesn't mean that you're just jogging all of the 270 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:01,360 time. It just means that you're 271 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,880 disciplined not to turn everything into this grey zone 272 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,520 area. So a lot of people keep things 273 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,120 feeling really easy, whereas actually, if we could training 274 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,960 over a 16 week marathon block, your easy is going to go become 275 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:15,800 faster. It is always going to become 276 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,040 faster and faster and faster if you're improving fitness. 277 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,680 And if you don't make that change, then you are actually 278 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,120 holding yourself back as a as a marathon runner. 279 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,960 What I really liked about this study though, is it talks about 280 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:28,960 responders. And this is the key thing for me 281 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:31,560 here. So there are typical responders 282 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,880 to research. One of the key being key moments 283 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:36,360 in history actually was in creatine. 284 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,040 I don't know if you're familiar with creatine letting. 285 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:43,080 I mean, I am, but maybe for the sake of our audience we can 286 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:44,320 address this a little bit. And. 287 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,240 That's no problem. So creatine monohydrates or 288 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:51,760 creatine itself is a, is a supplement that is of a 289 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,560 naturally occurring compound within the body and it takes 290 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,560 place within when we use or ingest food, this reaction 291 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,600 happens and we can use creatine. Well, it's been known for years 292 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:04,960 how effective it is across sports and in health. 293 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,120 We're not here to talk about that, but the the analogy has 294 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,920 always been about creatine is so fantastic that we have these 295 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,880 great responders. Roughly 95% of people respond to 296 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,720 creatine. 5% of people though don't respond to creatine in the 297 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:20,120 same way. They don't really get 298 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,600 substantial effects. So it sucks to be them basically 299 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,440 because it is so amazing and so wonderful. 300 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,880 So you want to be a responder. This paper identified responders 301 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:35,600 as well or multiple aspects. So effectively, when they 302 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:40,320 conduct their research on 120 recreational individuals, 32% of 303 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:42,160 people were polarized responders. 304 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,120 So they improved their performance based on the 8020 305 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,000 rule or it doesn't tell you enough of is that exactly? 306 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,320 32% as well responded to the pyramid or pyramid training 307 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,560 model as well. So it doesn't necessarily have 308 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,920 to apply to both. Almost 20% of people responded 309 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,000 to both methods. What a lovely group of 310 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:01,880 individuals. What a happy time they have. 311 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,240 They just know if they train, they're going to get better. 312 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:09,120 And then there was this, this bout of 18% of non responders. 313 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:11,440 That's a for me. I don't know anything about this 314 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,400 research, but I'm going to go out on a limb here as a 315 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,760 individual who's used to critiquing research, 18% is a 316 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,280 really large number to say they're not a responder to 317 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,120 training. And I would say there would be 318 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,200 some confounding variable there. So something wasn't being 319 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:31,040 adhered to quite correctly or maybe they didn't identify zones 320 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,720 etcetera, etcetera to training. But how amazing is this that we 321 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:39,800 speak about 8020 being the King Ding a Ling of all training. 322 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:44,200 And actually the pyramid model was just as effective for for 323 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,600 other individuals. And there was a kind of argument 324 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,160 here for these 120 individuals as well that pretty much 325 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,600 everyone will always benefit from the pyramid model in the 326 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:56,840 start of their program. But then as you became more 327 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,840 experienced and the faster athletes, they would need to 328 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,480 shift to the polarized model in order to get more from it. 329 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,160 It doesn't necessarily mean that it would happen in one year of 330 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,400 training. It might be 4 years that you 331 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:10,680 actually need to make that shift. 332 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:12,640 It's really interesting, this article. 333 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,839 The thing it really brought to the the face of things was that 334 00:17:15,839 --> 00:17:20,440 actually the 8020 rule is great and it's a really good way of 335 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:22,800 getting people to train a little bit more efficiently. 336 00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:25,760 But we're all different. There are individual differences 337 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:27,319 and we respond to it differently. 338 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:29,800 And there is another opportunity for us. 339 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:31,640 Yeah, I mean I. Think those numbers are really 340 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:35,040 kind of shocking, right? Because like you said, 8020 is 341 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,080 the king. And I'm wondering, do you have 342 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:41,320 any background on how many of these runners were novice 343 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:42,920 runners? Because I guess if you're a 344 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,760 novice runner, you're responding to training kind of like a 345 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,240 you're going to respond because you're going from zero to 346 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:51,840 something and you're going to get better. 347 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,120 It's like running your first marathon, you're going to PR, 348 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,480 and then your second marathon is probably going to be better 349 00:17:57,480 --> 00:17:59,040 because you've learned something. 350 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:00,760 Yeah. Absolutely. 351 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,080 I mean that that does make a massive difference here. 352 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,720 The will of been a again an agreed sign of period of what 353 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,520 counts as an eligible recreational runner. 354 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,840 And it's a really good point. You know, newbie gains exist for 355 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,080 a reason. We basically have an untrained 356 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,360 individual who's going to benefit from whatever they do. 357 00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:20,840 I think, I think the the key point in which the paper talked 358 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,560 about was that they classed anyone who had done, I think it 359 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:29,240 was less than three to four years of training as a novice 360 00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:31,720 and I think it was the three-year mark rather than the 361 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,080 four were considered as novice still. 362 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,920 But they will have in their methods under participants, they 363 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,800 will have a really direct breakdown and if they haven't 364 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,840 listed it, they would have supplied that breakdown to the 365 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,600 effectively the peer reviewers at Nature in order for it to be 366 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,480 to be given the go ahead. I do remember them they actually 367 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:52,840 had again achievement times as cut offs. 368 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:57,720 So how fast they could run this time or how far they ran weekly. 369 00:18:57,840 --> 00:18:59,600 Again, that does rely on honesty, doesn't it? 370 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:03,320 You know, they, it does rely on someone who enters the market to 371 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,840 be picked for a study. It's not uncommon though, in 372 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:10,240 research for people to be booted out of research to be basically 373 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,600 said you're not meeting the criteria for this experiment, 374 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:15,800 you're going to ruin the experiment and therefore you 375 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:17,960 need to finish. That's quite regularly an 376 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,600 occurrence within research. Interesting. 377 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,980 OK, so I think. Realistically, the biggest take 378 00:19:23,980 --> 00:19:29,200 away from this piece of research was that you shouldn't just rely 379 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:31,960 on what you've been told is the way you train. 380 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,240 It's really important to see what's happening with your 381 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,480 training. So, you know, Most of my runners 382 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:40,520 do follow an 8020 ish rule depending on what they're doing. 383 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,960 Most of my runners will not just do a marathon block though, 384 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,240 because I don't believe that is how you effectively train for 385 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,120 marathons. Most of my, most of my runners 386 00:19:48,120 --> 00:19:51,160 will have a speed block, which leads into a marathon. 387 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,680 And therefore we spend a lot of time doing fast stuff. 388 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,080 We spend a lot of time doing threshold stuff, make them a 389 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,040 stronger athlete effectively. And then we throw them into the 390 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,920 the marathon and we see them, you know, have great successes 391 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,480 and enjoy the process as well. The easy way as an individual, 392 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,240 if you're training, if you're running on your own, is just get 393 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,280 the first week, first eight weeks, say done and then. 394 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:13,880 Maybe test your performance, have a little look at what's 395 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,840 been working for you, particular training sessions that felt 396 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,880 really good and then experiment, you know, try that again later 397 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:22,400 on in the training program. The couple of sessions which 398 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,280 felt really good, are they feeling really good because 399 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,240 they're challenging you but you're enjoying it or are they 400 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:28,400 feeling really good because they didn't push you enough? 401 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:30,720 It's important to have the idea between those two. 402 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,320 And then next time you run a marathon, maybe make the the 403 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,240 reflection and make the adaptations. 404 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:37,800 But that is the most important take away from this study. 405 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:42,280 Yeah. And it's. 406 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,400 Interesting too because how do you think? 407 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,560 I mean, most coaches depending on who they're certified with, 408 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,080 if they're even certified, because lots of coaches aren't 409 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:54,680 certified, they go with this 8020 method and just make it to 410 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:59,200 their own version of it and train their runners. 411 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:03,800 But how would a coach identify a person that potentially could 412 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,080 benefit from a different type of training? 413 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,480 Perhaps the pyramid training, I think yeah, I. 414 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:11,520 Think, you know, putting my coach's hat on rather than a 415 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,480 scientific hat all comes down to conversations. 416 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,520 Like I speak a lot to my athletes about feel, how does 417 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:19,920 that feel? What was happening emotionally 418 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,720 during that run or that week of training, etcetera, etcetera. 419 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,400 You should be able to get an idea of when something needs to 420 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,320 change or if something just appears to have clicked for a 421 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,960 runner and go with it. And I think that's probably the 422 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,720 hardest aspects of training, developing your emotional and 423 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,600 emotional intelligence sufficiently to know just how to 424 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,640 push someone that suits them, though, yes, exactly because. 425 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:44,440 Everyone's interpretation of perceived pain is even 426 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:45,800 different, right? Exactly. 427 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,160 It's totally that. I mean that's that's why we saw 428 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,880 so much female success over the ultras, because of perceived 429 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:53,560 pain. Effectively for a while it 430 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,560 looked like Physiology was the cause of it. 431 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,640 There is still evidence pointing towards that we're too early in 432 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,040 the research, but I think a lot of it just comes down to 433 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,240 perceived pain. I've coached thousands of people 434 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,120 and I don't know. I think women in general. 435 00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:09,000 I'm not talking about my current coaching groups if you're 436 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:13,280 listening, but women in general tend to follow the program more 437 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,880 closely and honestly than men in my experience. 438 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:18,960 That might be so different for loads of other people. 439 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,880 It definitely will be different based on cultures and locations, 440 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,200 but I know there was a real period of time where when I was 441 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,920 coaching, I always used to coach loads of men and then suddenly 442 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,000 that changed and there was a lot of women I was coaching and 443 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,280 during that point of coaching, predominantly women, they were 444 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,600 really happy to just train whatever you said. 445 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,560 Yeah, cool, I'll do it. I love to moan, obviously, 446 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,000 because we all like to moan, but I'll do it. 447 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,240 Whereas men didn't want to be told what worked. 448 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:47,920 It's quite strange, but that's my experience. 449 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,480 I mean that happens all the. Time with people that have been 450 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,800 self coached for so long and then they suddenly have a coach. 451 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,760 And then, you know, I do talk to a lot of coaches and it's 452 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,360 frustrating for them because they'll write workouts and these 453 00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:02,320 workouts aren't being followed because they're being second 454 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:03,880 guessed. And then they're like, well, 455 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,680 it's a recipe and you need all the ingredients. 456 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,360 But if you're adding extra salt because you feel like doing 457 00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:11,120 that, it's not going to turn out OK. 458 00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:12,120 Yeah. And that must be really. 459 00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:14,720 Difficult for them. I mean it, I, there's like I 460 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,360 said, there's been periods in time where maybe I've had one or 461 00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:20,400 two people like that, but I'm in a luxurious position being able 462 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,240 to say no to people, you know, I don't, I don't need to coach 463 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,000 you. So our coaching group is, is 464 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,040 great. They're really, they understand 465 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:28,400 the science behind it. I think that's the most 466 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,160 important thing. And then we are able to have a 467 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,520 conversation as well to understand feelings of I just 468 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:36,200 want to do this though, and we find a negotiation works really 469 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:37,400 well for that. That's awesome. 470 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,960 All right, So with that study, you said biggest takeaways for 471 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:43,600 somebody. Yeah, it it's. 472 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,400 Effectively play around with your running. 473 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,400 So follow a stimulus for a while and then test yourself. 474 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:54,040 You know, do a a time trial which is going to see whether 475 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,440 you have been making performance gains or not. 476 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,800 If you have cool, stick with it. Maybe start to move towards 477 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,040 another training stimulus to give yourself a little push and 478 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,200 then if it hasn't made particular progress for you at 479 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,520 that point, shift, shift over to a new Tryon type of training 480 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,240 model or at least shift when it's your next race. 481 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,080 You know, if you maybe you're too deep into a training period 482 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,240 for your marathon, your half marathon, whatever it is, then 483 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,200 maybe you don't want to make that change now. 484 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,120 Next time though, play around with it. 485 00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:28,120 Very awesome. Thank you, Art. 486 00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:32,520 And for anyone that is listening, we're going to be 487 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,600 putting the study in our show notes as well as Arch's contact, 488 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,200 which I'm going to have you tell me again for anyone that is not 489 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,400 in the position of looking at the notes. 490 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:43,520 Awesome. Yeah. 491 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,280 You can get me on Instagram at Performance Physique or if you 492 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,200 just go to performancephysique.co.uk or you 493 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,400 just type in Performance Physique or my name on Google 494 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,960 and my :) will appear very awesome. 495 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:56,600 Thank you so much, Art. Thanks for having me. 496 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,320 Thank you, Art. Very much for this study and 497 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,880 speaking about it. It was very interesting to hear 498 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,400 that there's different strokes for different folks. 499 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,200 You like that? Once you got an analogy, you'll 500 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,000 stick to it, huh? I do, I'm going to say. 501 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,440 That a bunch more times. Good thing this is pre recorded 502 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,080 and you don't have to actually listen to it because I'm in 503 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,000 Kenya right now. Speaking of Kenya. 504 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:20,680 How's that going, future that he is? 505 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,480 Probably having a blast trying to record as much footage as 506 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,280 possible, trying to get as many runs in as possible, trying to 507 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,280 just soak it all in because it's such a beautiful, wonderful 508 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,080 place. And hopefully at this point, I 509 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,000 will have shared a lot of it on our YouTube account. 510 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,160 Again, I'm going to link that in our show notes. 511 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,360 And if you guys haven't seen our vlogs for Kenya yet, they are 512 00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:46,000 hopefully going to be at Marathon Journal. 513 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,480 So go to YouTube and put in at Marathon Journal and you will 514 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,280 see them there. So as we're recording. 515 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,840 This and you're not there yet but if people are going to go 516 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:58,400 watch your videos and your vlogs what are they going to see yes 517 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:02,040 so on the. Menu for Kenya are daily runs at 518 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,960 sunrise and some of them could be from the camp, others could 519 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,760 be on the tarmac, others could be on the Elliott Kipchogi 520 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,480 track, etcetera. So that's on the menu actually, 521 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,000 it's double runs. And then we have a day that's 522 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:21,240 packed with seminars on a lifestyle, on training, on 523 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,000 coaching. And then we have visits planned 524 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:28,760 to schools, to other community buildings, to Kalenjin tribes, 525 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:30,840 etcetera. And then we also have 526 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,840 sightseeing and forest runs and hikes and all sorts of stuff. 527 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,280 And hopefully I will be really able to capture all of that, 528 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,160 Ryan, because I haven't been to this particular camp yet. 529 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,320 I mean, I'm, I'm there right now, but I'm telling you in the 530 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,240 future and it sounds really, really amazing. 531 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,520 So I'm very excited and hopefully I'll be able to share 532 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:50,360 that with you guys. I'll be interesting to see. 533 00:26:50,360 --> 00:26:52,120 How it's different from the last one you went to? 534 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,000 So I think. My first time in Kenya can never 535 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,760 be replaced, and then this time is probably going to be just as 536 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,600 good of an experience, just in a different way. 537 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,560 Well, you did go back. Yes, I did. 538 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,240 Go back and hopefully, who knows, we'll be back again. 539 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:06,400 So what are we talking about next? 540 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,400 Week so next week is the. Third and last episode of our 541 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,280 three series of sharing research. 542 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,040 And that study reveals why strength training prevents the 543 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,800 late race collapse. And so again, I'm going to be 544 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:23,520 sitting down with Arch, who will talk me through that study, this 545 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,800 time from the Lowboro University, which is a pinnacle 546 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,360 of British sports science, which is also going to be very, very 547 00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:32,280 interesting. So TuneIn back next Monday. 548 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,120 And with that, have a good weekend running. 549 00:27:37,120 --> 00:27:39,160 You've been listening to. The Marathon Running Podcast by 550 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,960 Marathon Journal. If you've enjoyed the show, 551 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,960 check us out at marathonjournal.com or follow us 552 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:46,920 on social media. Happy training.