1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:03,960 You're listening to episode 187 of the Marathon Ring Podcast. 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:07,280 In this episode, we're going to talk about running Non Binary. 3 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:18,120 This is the Marathon Running Podcast by Letty and Ryan from 4 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:20,880 Week at the Runs. Join us in our running community 5 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,560 for weekly content that is motivational, educational and 6 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:27,560 inspirational and that the Marathon Running podcast take 7 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,640 you from the starting line to the finish line and beyond. 8 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,080 Hey, runners, and welcome to episode 187. 9 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:42,040 My Name is Letty. My name is Ryan. 10 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,240 And we are your hosts for this marathon running podcast. 11 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,040 If you're new, welcome, And if you're not new, welcome back. 12 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:51,880 This is take 4. This is take four. 13 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:53,440 That's true. Yeah, we've been messing up a 14 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:57,080 little bit. So what made you think about 15 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,320 today's topic? Well, Ryan, I've actually been 16 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:01,760 thinking about having this topic for years. 17 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:05,160 I just never really had a good guest option and I feel like 18 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,240 this topic, the non binary topic, is something where you do 19 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:10,600 have to have a good guest because otherwise it's just you 20 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,640 and me discussing something that we really don't know much about. 21 00:01:13,960 --> 00:01:17,560 Agreed, there's definitely been, seems to be a lot more 22 00:01:17,960 --> 00:01:23,400 definition or classification in that regard recently or you know 23 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:25,720 since our time. So it would be definitely good 24 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:29,320 to at least educate ourselves into what the differences are. 25 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,120 You made us sound really old, you said since our time. 26 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,480 I know, I feel old. We are, but we're not that old. 27 00:01:36,960 --> 00:01:38,760 No, but it's always good to key updated. 28 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:40,960 Yeah. So you were saying Boston had a 29 00:01:40,960 --> 00:01:44,600 new category that they started. When did they start that? 30 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:46,280 They actually started it this year. 31 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:50,600 So this year, 2023, for the very first time there's been a non 32 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:55,120 binary athlete category added and there were 27 non binary 33 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:56,800 athletes running the Boston Marathon. 34 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,360 So that was a kind of a cool thing. 35 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:04,240 And the surprising fun fact is about our guest today who is Cal 36 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,840 Columbia. He actually was the one putting 37 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,800 the proposition of adding an extra category to the races to 38 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,800 the Boston Marathon. And we'll hear about that in our 39 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:16,640 interview. And I didn't even know that 40 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,000 until, you know, in the midst of our interview is when that came 41 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:21,080 up. Oh, interesting. 42 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:25,920 Yeah, to me that seems like a good solution in my ignorance of 43 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,720 the situation. But to have multiple categories 44 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,800 doesn't seem to harm anyone. Yeah, I agree, absolutely. 45 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:35,640 That's pretty cool. So that he who is our guest and 46 00:02:35,640 --> 00:02:38,560 how did you meet him? Yeah, so our guest is Cal 47 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:42,640 Columbia, like I said, and he is a non binary, trans masculine 48 00:02:42,640 --> 00:02:46,560 runner, author, educator, activist, and I met him at Tre, 49 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,000 the running event where he was on a panel. 50 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:53,360 I missed the panel, but I spoke with him after the panel. 51 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:55,400 When I just randomly ran into him. 52 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,640 I had no idea that he was. I was a trans masculine runner 53 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,600 and it came up and it was super interesting. 54 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:08,840 I had some very dumb questions and he was very inviting and 55 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,520 open to answering them. So that was super cool because I 56 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:17,840 feel like with this topic, for those that don't have close 57 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:22,160 family members or friends going through it, it's it's really 58 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,240 tough, right? Because we're just kind of 59 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,440 guessing and talking about something that we have no idea 60 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:31,280 about. So after I spoke with him, he 61 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:36,000 was open to coming on and being a guest on the podcast and here 62 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,120 we are. So Lenny, it actually has been 63 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:43,000 in the news a lot recently with different athletes at schools or 64 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:48,960 other places and you know, kind of I think we're in a position 65 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:54,640 now of where they're trying to figure out how to navigate all 66 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:58,080 the differences. And so it is an interesting, 67 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,320 it'd be interesting to hear from his perspective, you know those 68 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,760 types of issues and topics. Exactly. 69 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:08,800 And I guess my hope for this podcast episode is for other 70 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:11,560 runners like us that are ignorant. 71 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:12,960 And I don't mean that in a bad way. 72 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:17,040 I just mean ignorant because we don't know to kind of open our 73 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:19,120 minds and hear about it, learn about it. 74 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:23,320 So then that way we can really make running this inclusive 75 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:25,840 sport that we always claim it is, right? 76 00:04:25,840 --> 00:04:28,040 Because we're always like, oh, running is so inclusive. 77 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,520 I've called running kind of almost something like a 78 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:33,680 religion, right, Because you can move somewhere else and it's 79 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,400 kind of like a church. You move to a new city, you find 80 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:37,840 your run club and that's what you do. 81 00:04:37,840 --> 00:04:40,480 And the running community watches out for one another. 82 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:44,600 And so along those lines, if we really want running to be that 83 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:49,000 inclusive, then we have to talk about subjects that we maybe 84 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,880 don't know very much about and start opening our minds. 85 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,600 You know the more you information, you know you can 86 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:59,560 form a more well educated, you know stands or idea about 87 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:01,120 everything. I mean honestly like if you 88 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:05,600 think about the origins of the United States we were leading in 89 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,360 other other countries in order to be free and to do what we 90 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,480 want. And so you know in a way like I 91 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,360 kind of feel in my opinion that just that people, as long as 92 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:17,840 they don't harm others like should be able to do what they 93 00:05:17,840 --> 00:05:19,360 want. If it makes them happy, like if 94 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,800 it doesn't affect me or it doesn't hurt people like I I in 95 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,320 most cases I just feel like they should be free to do it. 96 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,360 I mean, that's kind of the founding or the foundation of 97 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:33,440 the United States in general. And we were in Europe and under 98 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,960 like the rule of the Queen and people didn't like that. 99 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:38,920 They wanted to go somewhere else where they could be free. 100 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:41,760 Yeah. So here we are, and it's exactly 101 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:43,280 what you and I always talk about. 102 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:48,200 Nobody gets hurt if there's a, you know, couple that's a man 103 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:50,080 and a man living next to us, getting married. 104 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,560 It doesn't affect us in any kind of way. 105 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:55,840 So I don't understand what the problem is with it. 106 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:58,120 Yeah, I mean, people definitely have strong opinions, and I'm 107 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,000 sure people will have strong opinions about even this 108 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,600 podcast, but that doesn't, you know, everyone's entitled to 109 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:05,000 their own opinions too, which is good. 110 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:09,840 Yeah, but in this podcast, we love inclusiveness and we love 111 00:06:09,840 --> 00:06:12,480 running. And so with that, hopefully, 112 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,080 everybody open your minds, open your hearts. 113 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,560 And without any further ado, we're now going to play our 114 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:24,240 conversation with Cal Columbia. All right, I'm on here with Kal 115 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,760 Kalamya. Thank you so much for joining 116 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,200 me. Thank you so much for having me. 117 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:31,920 I'm excited to be here. Yes, and I'm super stoked to 118 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,240 have you as well. So let's hop right into this 119 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,360 topic. We've been pre talking and I in 120 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,760 advance told you I'm sorry if I'm asking questions that I may 121 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,720 be a little bit coming sounding ignorant. 122 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:49,000 It comes from a good place so we can help everyone in the sport 123 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:53,200 of running progress. So with that said, maybe you can 124 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:58,320 give us a general overview of the LGBTQ community for those 125 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:02,600 people not familiar, and maybe highlight some key aspects and 126 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,400 interesting details for those that are less informed. 127 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,080 And maybe give us some definitions of things so then 128 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,680 when we talk later on we can know what we're talking about. 129 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,400 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. OK, I love this question. 130 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:20,600 Well, obviously LGBTQ plus it's a huge group of people. 131 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,080 Many of us within the community would use the word queer to 132 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:27,400 describe ourselves, but some people don't identify with that 133 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,800 word. But basically, it is folks that 134 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:35,800 have sexual attraction or romantic attraction that is 135 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:40,880 outside of heteronormativity. So instead of man and a woman 136 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,400 being together, maybe it is a man who's interested in men and 137 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:46,320 women or just interested in men, right. 138 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,640 So it has to do with the relationships and how we relate 139 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,280 to other people, but it also sometimes has to do with the 140 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,280 self. This is the gender piece where 141 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,800 folks in the LGBTQ plus community that also encompasses 142 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:06,040 folks that are transgender and or non binary and I identify 143 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:11,200 with both of those words. So for me, I was assigned female 144 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:15,800 at birth and then realized in my life that that didn't feel like 145 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,480 it fit me well. So I underwent a gender 146 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:24,680 transition and that is what transness is to me, Changing 147 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,920 what you were sort of told to be at birth in terms of your gender 148 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:32,000 into something that feels like it actually suits you better. 149 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:37,440 And some folks who are trans identify also with the word non 150 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,960 binary. And what non binary is is 151 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:48,800 basically a little bit of a an maybe not quite fitting in fully 152 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:53,880 to being a man or being a woman. It could include having aspects 153 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:59,720 of both that are important to you, but it also just may mean 154 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:04,000 that those those terms don't really feel like they fully 155 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,680 encapsulate who you are. So for me both of those things 156 00:09:07,680 --> 00:09:09,520 are true. I'm trans and non binary. 157 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,840 And for me going through a gender transition and changing 158 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:17,920 from having this whole life that was, you know, like the life of 159 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,600 like a little girl and then a young woman. 160 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,960 And now I am often perceived as a man. 161 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:28,760 But I also have all of this experience navigating both of 162 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,720 those things. So I'm not, I don't feel like I 163 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:36,560 am just like you know that guy over there because I have all 164 00:09:36,560 --> 00:09:39,760 this other experience too. And so for me that's where a lot 165 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:45,360 of the non binary piece comes in, is feeling like neither man 166 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,200 nor woman as a term can fully contain. 167 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:50,680 Who I am. OK, that's great. 168 00:09:50,680 --> 00:09:54,080 Thank you so much for. Yeah, letting us know about 169 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:55,280 that. That's, that's good. 170 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:57,760 OK. So then, Cal, for you 171 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:01,920 personally, I'm going to ask you, when did you decide that 172 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:06,880 you wanted to change? Yeah, I think it's complicated 173 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:11,800 because for much of my younger life, I think something felt a 174 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:16,480 little bit different. But I had, I had never heard of 175 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:20,160 the word trans. I had never met a trans person. 176 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:24,120 I had never really, or that I know of, right. 177 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:26,600 It wasn't something that was discussed. 178 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:30,400 And so I sort of felt like, well, this is a bummer. 179 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,520 I have to be a girl. I don't want to, but Oh well. 180 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:38,400 And it wasn't until later in my life when I moved to California 181 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:42,920 actually, that I was able to see other trans people and meet 182 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:45,560 other trans people. And immediately I felt this huge 183 00:10:45,560 --> 00:10:49,440 weight lifted off my shoulders. Like that is what I am. 184 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,960 And it is possible for me to change. 185 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:57,840 And I that is sort of what inspired me to start 186 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:02,760 transitioning, which was I was, you know, 22 years old or so. 187 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,760 And it's that's a huge sort of part of why I think having these 188 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,120 types of conversations and having visibility for trans 189 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,320 folks is so important. Because without it, we sometimes 190 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,760 spend much of our lives confused and frustrated, not 191 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,320 understanding who we are. But when we see ourselves 192 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:25,440 reflected and others, we might think, oh, OK, there's nothing 193 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,400 wrong with me actually. And there's a life out there for 194 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,480 me that I can live and be proud of and be happy in. 195 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,960 OK, so we. OK, So you were in your 20s when 196 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,240 you started transitioning. What are your thoughts on 197 00:11:39,560 --> 00:11:42,280 younger kids doing that pre puberty? 198 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,960 Because I know that at some point it's helpful to start a 199 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,480 transition early, but then I know at the same time puberty 200 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:51,840 can be very confusing for a lot of us. 201 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:54,680 Mm hmm. Mm hmm. 202 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:57,840 Yeah, definitely. Well, I would love to ask you 203 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:01,240 this question before I answer this. 204 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:05,960 And the question is, when you have you at any point in your 205 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:13,880 life felt like I am a boy? Yes, I have an older brother, so 206 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,400 when I was a kid, I didn't want to do ballet. 207 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:21,000 I wanted to play soccer. Anything he did, I did too. 208 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:23,640 And then I was a late bloomer, too. 209 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:26,480 I didn't think. I didn't spend a lot of time 210 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:28,920 thinking about it. I just kind of, you know, lived 211 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:33,720 life and then eventually, then, you know, to me, that happened a 212 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,560 little bit later in life. And I think that's why that 213 00:12:36,560 --> 00:12:40,520 question is so in my head too. Right. 214 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:41,400 Yeah. Yeah. 215 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:43,400 No, that's that's very interesting. 216 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,840 And I I really resonate with a lot of what you said around like 217 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:50,360 when you're younger. When we're like younger, we 218 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:52,880 don't. There is a little bit more 219 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,080 freedom. Like, dress how you want maybe 220 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,120 and like, you know, just go play with your friends and like, 221 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,280 before puberty, right. And then when puberty happens, 222 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,200 it's like we're sort of like funneled into this. 223 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:06,920 Like, OK, well, now that you are maturing in this way and it's 224 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,440 middle school and high school, you better start acting more 225 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,080 like, you know what you're supposed to be. 226 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:12,560 And I feel like that happened to me too. 227 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:17,480 And I had to, Like, for me, it was like I went through all 228 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:19,040 that. And I was like, oh, this is 229 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:21,160 weird. And then it was that point when 230 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,520 I felt super unstable and was kind of like, OK, wait, no. 231 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:26,800 But yeah, this is a really good point. 232 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:31,640 I think like a lot of times people are worried about young 233 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:33,800 people and young people transitioning. 234 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:38,600 And the fact is that young people can't undergo medical 235 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,480 transition when their children know there's no, that's not even 236 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:47,400 legal. But what might happen is someone 237 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:53,320 at the age of like 10 might say that they, you know, I'm a girl 238 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,800 or I'm a boy, whatever, you know, they are identifying as a 239 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:58,400 different gender that they were assigned. 240 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:02,680 And then their parents and a team of like a medical team 241 00:14:02,680 --> 00:14:05,760 might together and the child might together make a decision 242 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:10,520 about starting puberty blockers or something like that, which is 243 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,240 totally harmless. And even kids that aren't trans 244 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:16,560 do that for a number of other medical reasons. 245 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:22,280 But there's no, there aren't surgical operations nor hormonal 246 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,600 prescriptions given to young children. 247 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:32,600 So I think that's important. But I also think that for me, my 248 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:37,200 belief is if a kid comes to you and says I'm a boy, then just 249 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,040 say OK, you don't have to change anything, You don't have to do 250 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,560 anything. Let let your kid pick their 251 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:45,920 clothes. If they want to try a different 252 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:47,680 name, just let them. What? 253 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:49,320 What harm is there? Right. 254 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:56,080 There's really not harm. I don't think that most children 255 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:58,280 are doing that. I think that if there's 256 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,840 something there, that there is a kernel of truth there that's 257 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,600 worth exploring. And even if in, you know, three 258 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:09,120 weeks or three years, the kid says never mind, OK, great. 259 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:14,400 But what is so essential is just telling kids that we believe 260 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:18,840 them about who they are. Because if you look at suicide 261 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,320 rates for LGBTQ plus youth, particularly for trans youth, 262 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:25,680 they are really, really high. And the number one mitigating 263 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:29,720 factor is 1 supportive adult. That says I see you and I 264 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,720 believe you. So it's really the difference 265 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,600 between life and death for young people. 266 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:37,760 And there's really not that much to lose. 267 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:39,840 Exactly. Your kid, right? 268 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:42,720 Yeah, no, exactly. And I think that's why it's so 269 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,640 important that we have this conversation that reaches people 270 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:50,160 that are outside of your normal circle because there's a bunch 271 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,600 of us ignorant about it. And if we can just help one 272 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,920 teenager, then that's definitely worth it. 273 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,800 So I love this. And yeah, so let's talk about 274 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:01,640 running a little bit. Have you always been running in 275 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:06,800 your life? Yes, I started running when I 276 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,120 was in middle school. I was already playing soccer, 277 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,320 and I was. I loved soccer and I loved 278 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:14,400 running. And they never took me out of 279 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,320 the game. And then I realized that running 280 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,440 was its own sport. And I was like, sign me up. 281 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:22,400 Yeah. And then I ran through high 282 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,080 school. I ran in college. 283 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:28,000 And then once I graduated, I started sort of grappling with 284 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,200 some questions around gender. And then I took a little bit. 285 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,560 I stepped away from running for a little bit, and then I found 286 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,960 my way back to it once I sort of began my transition. 287 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,440 So when you began your transition, how many years ago 288 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,640 was that and then how open was the sport of running at that 289 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:46,960 point to having a non binary category? 290 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:52,760 Great question. My transition began about 4 1/2 291 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:54,120 years ago. I was in. 292 00:16:54,760 --> 00:17:03,200 Yeah, it was 2019 and the sport was not. 293 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,839 There's nothing there. There weren't really many 294 00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:10,520 conversations at all, at least in my awareness about trans 295 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:14,720 people or non binary people participating and running. 296 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:19,720 And that was a serious problem. And especially if you compete in 297 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:24,960 marathons at a high level, you understand that when you are 298 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:29,280 applying for a guaranteed entry for XYZ Race, then you're using 299 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:34,440 a previous race's time and gender to qualify for the new 300 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:36,480 race under a specific time and gender. 301 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:41,920 So for me, what it looked like was I had qualified for certain 302 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,920 races, including Boston in the female division before I started 303 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:50,720 transitioning and I wanted to run Boston, but I had just begun 304 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:55,440 taking testosterone and I didn't very early right weeks in and 305 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,080 there were no real physical changes at that point. 306 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:04,320 But I I My only choice was to register for Boston under female 307 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,920 because I hadn't met the men's qualifying standard yet. 308 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,440 Because I had, I was effectively in a female body. 309 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,840 So it was just a very complicated process of like, I 310 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:16,880 don't. I didn't want to take up space 311 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:21,840 in female divisions, but I also didn't fully identify with 312 00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:28,600 Manhood, and nor could I at the time have just made a smooth 313 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,320 transition from one division to the next. 314 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:36,840 And then the pandemic shut everything down and all races 315 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,440 were deferred. And just as things were opening 316 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:45,080 back up again, I was playing soccer and I tore my ACL, which 317 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,200 was sort of a blessing in disguise because at the time I 318 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:54,240 was registered to run the 2020 Boston Marathon in the women's 319 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,720 division, which would have been really awkward, so. 320 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:01,680 Because at that point you had already transitioned a little 321 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,680 bit more. Yeah, exactly, exactly. 322 00:19:06,360 --> 00:19:10,600 And so at that time I just, you know, I couldn't move, I 323 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:15,040 couldn't run, and I went to the drawing board and started these 324 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:19,040 conversations with a bunch of races saying, look, here's my 325 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,000 situation. There are other people in the 326 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,800 same situation as me. Can you help us? 327 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,040 Like can we We want to run in your race? 328 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:31,320 Where can we go? And a lot of people were really 329 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,440 receptive and responsive to adding a non binary division and 330 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:36,800 many other people were like absolutely not. 331 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:45,200 A huge reason why people said no was because they were aligning 332 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,480 themselves with the Boston Marathon and they were saying 333 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,280 things like, well, if you run in this division, there's no way 334 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:55,400 for you to qualify for these bigger other races which don't 335 00:19:55,400 --> 00:20:02,280 acknowledge the division. And so I just shot for the moon 336 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:06,880 and reached out to Boston and said, look, people are sort of 337 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,400 using this as an excuse. Can you can we have a 338 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,680 conversation about this? And the Suzy Cleary of the 339 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,320 Boston Athletic Association responded and said yeah, let's 340 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:17,240 do it. And we started working together. 341 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,000 On rolling out the division. And then in 2022 it was the 342 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,800 Boston Marathon's first ever non binary division, which was 343 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:25,920 amazing. And then people could stop using 344 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,720 that as an excuse for their own races. 345 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,880 I love this. I had absolutely no idea that 346 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,360 you were behind all that, so maybe you can tell me a little 347 00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:37,200 bit more about that. You reached out and someone 348 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,080 emailed back. And then from there, what do you 349 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:41,960 have to go to go to DC? Like how? 350 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,640 How did all these steps happen for this to come true? 351 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,400 Yeah, we we didn't, I didn't fly anywhere. 352 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,400 We had a lot of zoom calls and we just talked through some of 353 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,440 the logistical challenges together. 354 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,720 But also I think Boston was really smart and being really 355 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,200 intentional about the way that they rolled out the category. 356 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,000 Because I think sometimes races are like, Oh no, we have to add 357 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,720 it, But then they don't necessarily have the support or 358 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,200 they don't have the critical conversations they need to do it 359 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,640 in a way that's fair and that's done well. 360 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:17,480 So I appreciated how Boston was really intentional about rolling 361 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,080 out the division. We just, yeah, we just had a lot 362 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,480 of back and forth, a lot of conversations, a lot of advice, 363 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,520 a lot of questions. And when we worked together and 364 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:28,640 we did it and it was really amazing. 365 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:32,480 I think, like, I had thought maybe in five years that Boston 366 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,560 would be willing to entertain that conversation, but they were 367 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:39,880 ready. And so that was just fantastic. 368 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:42,440 That's awesome. That's a huge shout out to 369 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:43,680 Boston. That's amazing. 370 00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:46,600 A couple little follow up questions in regards to that 371 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,320 because obviously you hear people that talk negatively 372 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,880 about the qualifying Standard Time saying OK, now they're 373 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,120 keeping the ones from women. What went into that 374 00:21:56,120 --> 00:21:58,640 conversation? Because obviously, and maybe 375 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,760 explain this to us too, in order to transition for you, you had 376 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:07,200 to take testosterone. But then for the assigned gender 377 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,080 men to go to women, what what happens there? 378 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,960 And how does that all play into having, you know, finding a 379 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:19,040 qualifying Standard Time? Yes, this is a great point. 380 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:24,000 And yeah, so it's for trans feminine folks, which is the 381 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,680 opposite of me. People who transition to female, 382 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:32,000 those folks I actually go through something really, 383 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,080 really, really challenging and I feel like often in in sports 384 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,040 about trans or conversations about trans athletes in sports, 385 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,120 they take the the biggest heat. People are most frustrated or 386 00:22:43,120 --> 00:22:47,080 think it's most unfair for them. And when people are trans 387 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:51,600 feminine, they go from having in some ways maybe athletic 388 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,480 superiority as it's been coined in some ways, in some senses 389 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,600 they begin transitioning and they begin taking estrogen or 390 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,920 progesterone, these female hormones, and they drastically 391 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:09,480 lose their strength and their fitness And it it does not make 392 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,840 sense for those people to be competing in men's divisions for 393 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,920 any reason. It's not fair, it's it's 394 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,400 humiliating, right. There are many reasons why that 395 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:26,000 does not make any sense. And so so in the non binary 396 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,560 division we have sort of a conglomeration. 397 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,400 We have a lot of different people with a lot of different 398 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,840 hormone profiles and a lot of different experiences and 399 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,640 identities. And some folks also don't 400 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,360 transition right like or they don't medically transition. 401 00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:43,720 So I could have when I thought you know, I don't I don't align 402 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:45,240 with my gender. I could have said I'm going to 403 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,960 cut my hair, I'm going to change my name, but I don't, I'm not 404 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:49,480 interested in taking testosterone. 405 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:55,840 So you are accounting for people that also may have assigned 406 00:23:55,840 --> 00:24:01,600 female at birth bodies and athletic capacities so to speak 407 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,960 that are still going to want to participate in the non binary 408 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:08,800 division and to make it fair for those people. 409 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,600 That is often why the standards in the non binary division match 410 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,360 the standards in the women's division. 411 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:22,720 So it's complicated. It's it's nuanced, but it's 412 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:27,680 really to not necessarily give a preference for athletes that are 413 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,920 taking hormones versus athletes that may not be taking hormones. 414 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,840 And it's not perfect. The system's not perfect, but 415 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,920 we're just accounting for a lot of diversity that other 416 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,680 categories don't necessarily see to this extent. 417 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,840 No, I mean I think it makes complete sense because even for 418 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:53,160 the one person who continues in their assigned body to be able 419 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,000 to participate, that's great. And so now I guess my follow up 420 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,800 question is within the non binary athletes, is there any 421 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:06,320 talk about how things could be done better for people taking 422 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,560 hormones versus not taking hormones versus staying at their 423 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,360 assigned gender etcetera? That's a great question. 424 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:17,920 There isn't a ton of talk about this. 425 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:25,080 And I think the reason why in my experience is that we are still 426 00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:28,720 having pretty basic conversations about what the 427 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:30,360 division is, what the identity is. 428 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,000 And what we want more than anything is for people to say, 429 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,360 I, OK, that makes sense. We should have this division, 430 00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:38,840 right? That's where we're trying to get 431 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,040 people. So as soon as we start talking 432 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:42,960 about the insurance and outs and the nuances and the 433 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:47,360 complications, we might have people that say this category 434 00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:50,800 isn't really a good solution and then we lose the momentum of 435 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,040 just having this identity acknowledged at large. 436 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,280 So that is what is a little bit tricky. 437 00:25:58,360 --> 00:26:04,400 There are certainly you know for me, I think I want you know 438 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:10,480 trans, trans trans folks that do medically transition with 439 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:14,160 hormones are more likely to be scrutinized and pushed out of 440 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,880 sports in a lot of ways. And so one of my missions is to 441 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,560 try to get more folks that are transitioning into these 442 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,880 divisions because I think we are the people that are most likely 443 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:32,960 to be excluded in general. And and I I feel it just breaks 444 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,800 my heart because I love running so much and I love movement so 445 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:38,280 much and I think it's so healing. 446 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,680 It's so good for not only our physical health but our mental 447 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,720 health. And when you have a whole 448 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,120 demographic of people, trans athletes, right, that are are 449 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,440 constantly under a microscope, constantly told that we don't 450 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,760 belong in the space, it makes it so we can access the healing 451 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,400 power of movement and of sport. And it's just not fair. 452 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,800 So I think I want to, I'm trying to get those people that feel 453 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:06,200 most targeted and most excluded to feel like that they do have a 454 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,440 place in sports that you can be trans and still be an athlete, 455 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,800 and that if you're an athlete, it's OK to transition, right? 456 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,840 Like to not have trans athlete be such an oxymoron? 457 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,040 Yes, yes, absolutely. And I'm, I'm loving that we're, 458 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,600 you know, getting educated on this right now in this very 459 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,120 podcast. So once Boston, I know, right. 460 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,240 So once Boston happened, tell me what happened. 461 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:35,000 Was there a domino effect? So from other organized races? 462 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,680 And then also, what about from the community? 463 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:42,720 Has the community been good at responding to implementing this 464 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,280 new category? Great question. 465 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,560 Yeah. Yes, I think in general there, 466 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:55,760 Boston people do look to Boston for guidance on how to proceed 467 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,840 in their other, maybe smaller races. 468 00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:59,800 New York City has done a pretty good job too. 469 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:01,720 They've had a division for three years. 470 00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:07,120 There's still some inequities within that, but that's neither 471 00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:09,000 here nor there. It's for a later podcast. 472 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,200 But yes, there have been many other races that have adopted 473 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,560 the category. I think the only I know actually 474 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,760 the only World Marathon major that does not have it at this 475 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,720 point is Tokyo. And I've been trying to get in 476 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,520 contact with them, with their they're on a whole nother plane, 477 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:29,160 so that that's challenging. But I think the importance too 478 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,080 of having all of these other races be like let's add the 479 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:36,360 division, let's add the division is that it's not only moving 480 00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:38,920 inclusivity in the running world forward, but it's actually 481 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,520 opening up very serious critical conversations in the world at 482 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,920 large about the fact that trans and non binary people do exist. 483 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,840 Because people see this even if they aren't runners, right? 484 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,360 They'll see the headline about the new division. 485 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,480 And even if people are frustrated or confused, they're 486 00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:00,040 for the first time being forced to reconcile that there's more 487 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,040 than man and woman in the world in the in the traditional sense 488 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:08,080 that we understand it. So did was that your question? 489 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:09,440 Just like what's been the effect? 490 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,480 Sort of. Yeah, the effect on other races 491 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,480 and then also the running community, because obviously, as 492 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,880 you just stated, you know, people are hearing about it. 493 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,920 And then the response and you and I were talking prior to 494 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,520 recording the podcast a little bit about the blind leading the 495 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:26,800 blind, right? If we've never experienced 496 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:31,960 something or walked in someone's shoes, then we don't really know 497 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,200 what is going on except for what our neighbor tells us, who has 498 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,160 nothing to do with it either. So in that, in that sense it's 499 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,760 it's kind of good to hear from you how you felt everything is 500 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,800 working and then how the running community responded. 501 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,240 Yeah, yeah. I think, I think in large part 502 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:55,400 people have been responsive and they've been excited and they've 503 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,920 been happy. And I think there are certainly 504 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,560 folks that are not happy that think that this is an 505 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,160 abomination, right? And if you look at history, this 506 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:06,600 is, this happens all the time, right? 507 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,080 People are afraid of something that's new, afraid of something 508 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,000 that they don't understand. But what always prevails is love 509 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:15,800 and inclusion. So we're going to see that 510 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,000 happen again. It's just about us making a 511 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,560 decision about which side of this story we want to be on. 512 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,520 And I think like, it's so important even for people that 513 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:30,880 might be listening right now to think about, if I go and run in 514 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:35,640 the New York City Marathon in a non binary division, that 515 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:37,400 probably won't affect you at all. 516 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:39,200 It probably won't even touch you. 517 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,200 It probably won't affect anything about your day, your 518 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,560 race, your life, right? So who cares? 519 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:51,240 Like it doesn't matter, right? And I think I just encourage 520 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,960 people to like also think about how challenging it actually is 521 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,960 to change your whole life and change your whole identity and 522 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,160 become a version of yourself that that you weren't told to 523 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,040 be, but also to then navigate the world that tells you that 524 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,400 you aren't here, that you shouldn't be here, right? 525 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,680 It's a lot. So just like have some grace for 526 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,760 trans and non binary people. We're not just here to like stir 527 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,520 the pot. We're here to be ourselves and 528 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,160 to hopefully make other people make space for other people to 529 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,600 also be themselves, even if they don't identify in the same exact 530 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,240 way. So I just always think about 531 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,160 that piece right? Like no one is, no one is giving 532 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,880 anything up. No one is told that they can't 533 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:35,400 run because we're running, right? 534 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:40,480 So who cares? Running is all about support and 535 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:45,720 inclusivity and like uplifting each other and celebrating each 536 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,400 other, so we should just keep doing that. 537 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:49,840 Exactly. And you know, that's another 538 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:55,240 reminder that obviously as humans we want to make the easy 539 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,000 choice, right? So it's not like you're making 540 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,400 this quote UN quote choice to make your life harder and go 541 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:06,320 through all these hardships when in reality you could just go 542 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,040 without it. So maybe just to remind people a 543 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:10,920 little bit, maybe you can tell us a little bit about your 544 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,880 journey and some stuff that you've encountered that is not 545 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,320 been pretty. So then that way we can kind of 546 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:21,200 go towards the conclusion of we can all be better people. 547 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:28,600 Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think some of the most, the 548 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:34,400 most prevalent are just people saying like you will always be a 549 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:40,960 girl no matter what you do. And I I just don't agree with 550 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:46,280 that at all. And I think it's so weird sort 551 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:50,200 of to like impose that when like how. 552 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:55,480 But I think it also I think I have a lot of compassion even 553 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,600 for people that are transphobic in this way because I just think 554 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:02,560 like there's something so dysregulating for some folks 555 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:12,080 about something that they cannot comprehend and it it sounds so 556 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:17,280 limiting, it sounds so limiting to be so stuck in there's only 557 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,680 there are only two things and you are one or the other that 558 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,120 sounds very confining. And I just, I don't, I don't 559 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:31,760 operate in that way. And the systems that that that I 560 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:36,160 guess the causes for people to say, you will only ever be this 561 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,320 one thing. It's just like, it's just really 562 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,320 like the patriarchy at large in the way that we are taught to 563 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,640 understand our role in society. If you're a man, you behave like 564 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,280 this, If you're a woman you behave like that. 565 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:54,120 And trans people say, well, what does that leave for me then? 566 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,520 And that I think complicates some of these power dynamics 567 00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,840 that that affect us and harm us all really. 568 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:04,080 So in my liberation and me being myself should make more space 569 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,360 for other people to also be themselves. 570 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:11,440 So I it's painful to hear sometimes but I don't personally 571 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:16,159 believe it or subscribe to do it so it's I can move past it and I 572 00:34:16,159 --> 00:34:22,199 think a lot I I think mostly other people's struggles and 573 00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:24,679 insecurities show up in these conversations. 574 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:30,320 So I think, as I always push myself to do in those moments 575 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,840 when we are feeling so frustrated or confused or angry 576 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:38,480 or just like pissed off, right? I think it could be useful for 577 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,719 all of us to sit with that a little bit longer and find out 578 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:43,880 what's really underneath that feeling. 579 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,040 Because maybe it's not about me and other trans people. 580 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,880 Maybe it's something inside that we should spend time with, 581 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,159 exploring and healing on our own so that we don't have to carry 582 00:34:55,159 --> 00:34:59,120 all this anger and hate. I love it. 583 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,320 It's so true. Hopefully we can learn from this 584 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:05,960 conversation and open our hearts and follow Cal on Instagram and 585 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,440 watch the amazingness of the journey. 586 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,240 Yeah. Thank you so much for speaking 587 00:35:11,240 --> 00:35:14,840 with me and you know, taking all my ignorant questions and giving 588 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:19,480 me grace by answering them. Your questions were honestly 589 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,680 fantastic. There was not a single moment 590 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,240 that I I thought could be better. 591 00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:26,880 So you're great. It has been a pleasure talking 592 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:27,800 to you, Letty. Thank you. 593 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:34,640 Thank you. So thanks Cal for coming on and 594 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:39,440 speaking with us and giving us information that we can now 595 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,520 process and understand better. Hopefully this will help the 596 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:49,040 running community being open minded and understand. 597 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:54,440 I agree, and I really admire the courage of someone that wants to 598 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:59,360 speak about and come forward in such a difficult way. 599 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:04,120 It's for me, it would be very difficult to be vocal and 600 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,960 helpful to others in that scenario. 601 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:11,240 And I think it's great for those people that you know would 602 00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:15,440 otherwise maybe feel isolated to be included in, you know, in a 603 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:16,960 group or know that they're not alone. 604 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:18,840 I think that's awesome. Yeah, I love it. 605 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:22,920 So if you guys want to follow Cal or see him on Instagram, he 606 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:27,080 is as Cal Kalamia. Obviously I'm going to link his 607 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,360 website in our show notes and all that other stuff. 608 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:32,720 He was quite lovely. And Cal, I hope that I get to 609 00:36:32,720 --> 00:36:36,800 see you again watching the Olympic Trials, or if not, then 610 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,200 I will see you in Boston. Stay tuned for next week 611 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,280 because. Next week we have another 612 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,240 podcast episode. Just like last week. 613 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:47,840 Yeah. Next week we're going to give 614 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,320 you the Christmas present, which is, you know, obviously, I'm 615 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,920 just saying that because the episode comes out on December 616 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,280 25th, Christmas, and it will be nutrition with Megan 617 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,320 Featherstone, who is a nutritionist. 618 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,880 That'll answer our nutrition questions. 619 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,520 And what better timing than doing that right before the new 620 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,320 year, because that way you can kind of clean up your ACT. 621 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,040 I always do that towards the end of the year. 622 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,080 What about you, Ryan? Do you clean up your ACT? 623 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:14,760 Do you have New Year's resolutions? 624 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,240 I'm not a really good New Year's resolution person. 625 00:37:17,240 --> 00:37:19,320 I do try to improve myself throughout the year all the 626 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,080 time, but I don't know, I have this thing, you know, that like 627 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,720 mentally that you should always be trying to improve. 628 00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:27,720 So to me to like, do it only at one point of the year is like 629 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,680 kind of like being fake. Like you just do it throughout 630 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,800 the whole year, not just make it at the beginning of the year 631 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,040 only. So I'm not a good person for New 632 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,200 Year's resolutions. Well, I am and. 633 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,320 Sorry. You just ruined it forever. 634 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:41,760 Skill. Totally. 635 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,640 I'm gonna make my resolutions. I'm probably gonna. 636 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,400 I have a little resolution video on Instagram where I talk about 637 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,160 my goals, but my goals are probably just the same as every 638 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,600 year, run more marathons and have more fun in life. 639 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:57,160 But I feel like we're doing a great job. 640 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:01,360 I feel like life is awesome. Every year with this podcast 641 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,760 keeps getting better. Maybe we'll make a list of New 642 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,480 Year's resolutions for the podcast, because a lot of stuff 643 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,440 has been happening, we've been growing, and, you know, thanks 644 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:12,720 to you listeners and it's been a lot of fun. 645 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:14,600 Yeah, I can get behind that. All right. 646 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:16,400 So with that. Have a good week, Arun. 647 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,800 Thanks for tuning in. For more information Ant 648 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:25,760 Marathon running news, please head to 649 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:31,080 www.marathonrunningpodcast.com and we'll be back next week.