1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,200 You're listening to episode 312 of the marathon Running podcast. 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:06,280 In this episode we're going to talk about the two hour barrier 3 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:08,600 of the marathon. Haven't been broken. 4 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,760 Welcome to the marathon running Podcast by Marathon Journal. 5 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:14,440 Join us every week for the insights and inspiration you 6 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,280 need to get from the starting line to the finish line and 7 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:24,360 beyond. Hey runners, and welcome to 8 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:26,600 episode 312. My name is Letty. 9 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,240 My name is Ryan. And I am very excited to have 10 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:31,400 you here, Ryan, because we're going to talk about something 11 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:33,880 amazing. And I guess you heard me say the 12 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:35,040 intro. You know what it is? 13 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:38,120 Yeah, I mean, it's kind of an arbitrary number in a way, but 14 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:40,400 it's like seems like a very significant. 1. 15 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,480 Yes, arbitrary, but yet so big for humanity. 16 00:00:43,480 --> 00:00:47,280 So we are going to be talking about this whole 2 hour marathon 17 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:51,320 having been broken and to make it helpful for you listeners, 18 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:55,200 we're going to translate these elite achievements into the 19 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:57,040 middle of the pack mechanics. So we're going to give you a 20 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:01,280 little bit of a framework in our discussion of how we can use 21 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:06,360 this new broken barrier and apply information that we learn 22 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,080 into our own running. Because after all, our podcast 23 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:13,000 is always here to help you learn how to become a better runner. 24 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:15,840 Yeah, I think it's interesting because, you know, there's been 25 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,160 a lot of talk because of that two hour barrier and nobody 26 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,360 could have broken it. They were so close to it though, 27 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:23,800 I figured it was just a matter of time. 28 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:28,080 But it is pretty amazing how even for quite a long time now 29 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,880 they just slowly keep getting faster and faster. 30 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,160 So I wonder if it and will it when it will stop. 31 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,080 It will eventually stop, but I wonder when. 32 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,640 I don't think we'll be on this planet for that, right? 33 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:40,640 I mean, who knows? I mean, part of it could be 34 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,440 evolution, but part of it's also equipment, you know, like the 35 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:45,680 shoes and stuff. I saw an interesting graph where 36 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,240 they showed the the new shoes that came out and they there 37 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,360 wasn't a significant jump. It was faster, but it wasn't 38 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,640 like a real big significant jump in speed from the people that 39 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:56,680 before they had those shoes. But they have slowly been 40 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:58,680 getting faster. Yes, yes, yes, yes. 41 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:02,000 And Ryan before you jump ahead, shoes is going to be on our list 42 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:03,360 of things we are going to talk about. 43 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:05,880 But before we do any of this, let's do a little bit of 44 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,120 housekeeping. I wanted to let our listeners 45 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,760 know that our podcast will from now on, for the foreseeable 46 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,920 future, have a new segment and that segment will air on 47 00:02:14,920 --> 00:02:17,160 Thursday. So the segment is called Your 48 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,720 Story, Your Why. And basically it's exactly that. 49 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,760 It's going to be interviews with everyday runners about what 50 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,120 their why is why they started running, maybe about 30 minute 51 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:29,840 segments. And if you are a close friend of 52 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:34,040 mine, I will probably contact you in the near future because I 53 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,360 want to interview you. And the reason we are bringing 54 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:40,040 in the segment is because I went to Boston and we did hardcore 55 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,200 elite reporting, etcetera. We talk about shoes all the 56 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,040 time. At the same time, I feel like I 57 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,120 don't want to lose touch with our community by constantly just 58 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:52,120 covering news and science. So while I was in Boston, I 59 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,320 talked to so many amazing runners, just everyday runners, 60 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:57,640 and learned a lot about them and their stories. 61 00:02:57,640 --> 00:03:00,840 And we also get pictures all the time of people that have amazing 62 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:02,800 stories that they would like to share. 63 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:05,800 And I always kind of turned them down, not because the stories 64 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,640 weren't amazing, but because I always wanted to have some 65 00:03:08,640 --> 00:03:10,800 scientific lesson to bring to our audience. 66 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,800 But then I feel like, you know, just relating could be a lesson 67 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:16,320 big enough. Yeah, it'll be interesting. 68 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:17,880 It's nice. I think that you're breaking 69 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,000 that down into a different segment so people don't want to 70 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:21,040 watch, don't want to listen to it. 71 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:22,760 They don't have to. Yes, absolutely. 72 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,280 And if you want to participate in this segment, I'm going to 73 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:26,360 share my e-mail. It's Letty at 74 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:30,200 marathonjournal.com. And yeah, just shoot me an 75 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:34,600 e-mail if you want to Share your story and inspire the running 76 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,640 community with that. And if you want inspiration to 77 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,480 run, you should listen to it. Yes, absolutely, because those 78 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,680 stories are ultimately the ones that inspire us, the ones that 79 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:45,720 are relatable and and that sort of thing. 80 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:49,120 So so that's that. And let's talk about this sub 81 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,640 two hour breakthrough. This sub two hour breakthrough 82 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:57,360 happened just last weekend in London where we saw not only one 83 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,680 person break that barrier, but we actually Ryan saw 2. 84 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:06,840 We saw Sebastian Saway, A Kenyan runner, and we saw Jomif Kelecha 85 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,000 from Ethiopia. And you want to address the big 86 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,240 elephant in the room first. I don't see any. 87 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,040 Elephants. The big elephant in the room is 88 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:17,120 doping, right? As soon as people hear East 89 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:19,360 African runners, they think doping. 90 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,160 And so let's just address that briefly. 91 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:26,920 Sebastian Saway is the runner who even last year when he was 92 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:31,200 running the Berlin Marathon, had huge plans, plans of breaking 93 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,240 the world record and doing all the hard things. 94 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,440 And he's an Adidas sponsored athlete. 95 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:40,080 And what Adidas did with him was that they implemented A doping 96 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,080 regimen. So instead of just getting 97 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,720 tested on a regular basis like they normally do, Adidas paid 98 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,880 for extra tests so that way he could come to the line clean. 99 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,240 Because this guy believes in not doping his whole camp, right? 100 00:04:53,280 --> 00:04:56,400 Sebastian Savi was the person whose camp we went to when we 101 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:58,360 went last year. When we went in Kenya, we stayed 102 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,360 with his coach, Claudia Baradelli, who is an excellent 103 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,520 person, and all the other guys in that camp. 104 00:05:03,840 --> 00:05:07,440 And because of my personal relationship with that camp and 105 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:11,040 what I've observed, I literally would vouch that nobody there 106 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,040 touches anything. I would be super shocked if 107 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:16,480 anything ever came from that camp because of all of that. 108 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:20,520 Yomi Kielcha from Ethiopia, I don't know him. 109 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,600 I had never met him. And guess what, what it was his 110 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,280 debut marathon. So just to talk about these two 111 00:05:26,280 --> 00:05:29,040 athletes a little bit more, Sebastian Savage, 30 years old 112 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,360 and his background is he's from the Rift Valley in Kenya and he 113 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,880 used to do road running and cross country running and 114 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,640 nothing track. Kejalcha on the other hand, he 115 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:43,680 is a track prodigy and has, you know, moved his way up doing 116 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:47,760 track and then done the marathon distance after running a super 117 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,160 blazing fast half marathon, which was 57 minutes and 30 118 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:53,280 seconds. So he was the former world 119 00:05:53,280 --> 00:05:56,520 record holder, but you never know if someone can translate 120 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:59,080 that speed into the marathon too, right? 121 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,320 Because it's twice the distance. Apparently they could. 122 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:02,760 Apparently they could. Yeah. 123 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:04,240 But you know, we always kind of wait for it. 124 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:08,160 For example, when we were in Boston saying who is Kipchoge's 125 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,840 coach, he had one of his athletes there. 126 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:12,960 And so his name is Nicholas Kimmelli. 127 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,600 And so I had met him and I was like, oh, maybe he is this 128 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,400 person that is going to be just like Kipchogi just because he 129 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,320 has the same coach. But he, you know, since Boston 130 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,520 was his debut marathon, he could not translate his fast speed 131 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,520 into the marathon distance. So you really kind of hope, but 132 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:30,280 then you just kind of guess, right? 133 00:06:30,280 --> 00:06:32,320 Yeah, and maybe they will eventually, but at the moment 134 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:34,120 they haven't been successful doing so, right. 135 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,480 Yeah, exactly. So what happened during the 136 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:38,280 London Marathon? Well, the London Marathon had 137 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:42,320 ideal conditions and Sebastian Salway ended up negative 138 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:46,000 splitting his marathon time. So he basically went through the 139 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,400 first half in one hour and 29 seconds and then the second-half 140 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:54,080 in 59 minutes and 31 seconds, negative splitting by almost a 141 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:57,280 minute, which is crazy. Yeah, I don't know that's that's 142 00:06:57,280 --> 00:06:59,760 a really close. I think you say it's crazy, but 143 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,160 over the course of that much time, like I'm sure that the 144 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,120 some of the elite athletes are even closer, but that's not very 145 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,160 far off. Yeah, but it took him to make a 146 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,840 solo break at the 40 kilometer mark where he just took off and, 147 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,960 you know, just showed the world that he had a whole other gear 148 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,520 for the last two, for the last two kilometers. 149 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,480 And on the other hand, Yomiv Kiyalscha, he stayed and tucked 150 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,880 directly behind Sebastian Sawy until the final stretch and 151 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,600 effectively used Sawy as a tactical shield, which is a 152 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,320 great lesson for all of us amateur runners on the power of 153 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,640 drafting and staying in the pack to, to save energy, mental 154 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:37,440 energy and all that. So that there's your first 155 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:41,200 Nuggets of, of knowledge, what you can do during your marathon 156 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:43,440 listeners. He, he can tug in behind 157 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:45,200 someone, use them as a human shield. 158 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,160 I mean a windshield and just kind of go for it. 159 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,000 Yeah, as long as it's not affecting your pace too much, I 160 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:52,400 guess. But yeah, I know that's you see 161 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,320 it all the time with Tour de France or others athletic 162 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:57,760 athletics that are at a higher speed, but that doesn't mean it 163 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:00,440 doesn't work for running too. Yeah, but the only hard thing 164 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:04,280 about that is that you kind of have to do that with someone, 165 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,520 you know, right. Keyalcha knew how Sebastian 166 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,360 Tsaoui was going to run. We, on the other hand, if we 167 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,960 just show up at the starting line and follow random runner, 168 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,280 we don't know how their training went and if we should tuck in 169 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:19,680 behind them and if if this is indeed good pacing. 170 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:21,760 So that's the difficult part. Well, yeah, I mean you don't 171 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:23,600 necessarily have to use it for pacing. 172 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,040 I would argue also that you if you're running in the made the 173 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,600 bigger pack, you have lots of people to follow and you can 174 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,679 kind of adjust as long as you keep and you're OK keeping your 175 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:34,520 pace. Just keep flipping to different 176 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:36,280 people that are running the right speed for you. 177 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,400 It's just kind of beautiful to see how all these professional, 178 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,600 not all of them, but I mean, a lot of these people up there, 179 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,160 John Career, Sebastian saw where they all have kind of figured 180 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,080 out how to run the marathon efficiently. 181 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,120 John Career, for example, who had just won the Boston Marathon 182 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:01,320 last weekend. He told me his plan before he 183 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:05,600 ran it and he said he's going to run 30 kilometers in a very 184 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:10,360 controlled pace and then kind of take off and go for it and then 185 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:14,440 really push towards the end. I just wish we would learn how 186 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,200 to do that because I think it's just super hard. 187 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,720 But I guess practice is key, right? 188 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:22,720 Yeah, the training helps. I'm sure you know they do all 189 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,480 the time, which a lot of people don't have the chance to do that 190 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:27,960 much training, but you can still learn from what they do. 191 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:30,200 And that's actually a good point, Ryan, because a lot of 192 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,640 us, when we have a marathon of 26 miles, there's not a lot of 193 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,160 runners that really go over 20 miles. 194 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:40,640 So in essence, you're not running enough to really test 195 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:42,880 your speed. Whereas those elite runners, I 196 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,640 mean, I know CJ Albertson, he runs longer than a marathon. 197 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:48,920 I know John Career sometimes runs 40 kilometers, so that's 198 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:51,840 only two kilometers away. So if you practice these really 199 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:55,560 long runs, you can do it. But for most of us, like you 200 00:09:55,560 --> 00:09:58,120 said, we don't get enough sleep, We don't get enough rest in 201 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:00,480 between to to let ourselves heal. 202 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,000 And in the end, we end up damaging ourselves because we're 203 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:05,880 not elite runners. We have jobs and podcasts to run 204 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,560 exactly. Which is your reason why you 205 00:10:08,560 --> 00:10:11,240 know you're not you're not running marathons right now. 206 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:13,200 And kids to manage. Yes. 207 00:10:13,560 --> 00:10:18,600 So the next point I want to talk about is fueling and obviously 208 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,280 we're not nutritionists, but I did do research on what both 209 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:24,080 these runners. Obviously, we're not 210 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,680 nutritionists. What Sebastian Sao and Yomi 211 00:10:26,680 --> 00:10:30,520 Kelja had during their marathon, what their fueling was. 212 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:34,440 And it almost seems like there's a new revolution. 213 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,120 And we've talked about it in just a couple of podcasts ago, 214 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:42,440 how the new research is pushing athletes to be able to consume 215 00:10:42,680 --> 00:10:46,440 120 grams or more carbs per hour. 216 00:10:46,680 --> 00:10:49,120 But again, that requires gut training, right? 217 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:51,040 And practicing and seeing what works for you. 218 00:10:51,560 --> 00:10:56,960 And with that, I'm going to talk about the Morton Gel and Morton 219 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:59,880 nutrition that Sebastian Tsawi talked about. 220 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:03,440 And the only reason I'm doing that is not because I personally 221 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,680 take Morton and I actually like a whole bunch of different gels. 222 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:12,240 But Morton has a new formula that they have that's called the 223 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,480 bicarb. And that bicarb comes down to 224 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,000 science, right? And I wrote this down here. 225 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:21,200 When you're running a marathon intensely, muscles produce 226 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,840 lactic acid. This acid breaks down into 227 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:27,280 hydrogen ions, which make the muscle environment acidic. 228 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:30,600 So you have a low pH. And as a result, this acidity 229 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,200 interferes with muscle contraction and energy 230 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,360 production. And it's literally the burn that 231 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,400 forces athletes to slow down their runs. 232 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:42,800 Now, the solution for that is sodium carbonate, which is 233 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,480 baking soda. It is high in alkaline, so it 234 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,320 has a high pH, and that's a substance. 235 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:51,440 And if you get enough into your blood, it can act like a buffer 236 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:53,760 and neutralize the acids that are produced. 237 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,000 Now the problem with that is to get enough bicarb to help your 238 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,840 performance, you had to eat a massive amount of baking soda, 239 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,280 which then reacts with your stomach acids and creates CO2 240 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,440 gas, leading to GI distress, bloating, vomiting. 241 00:12:08,560 --> 00:12:11,960 And most athletes decided that the burn was better than the 242 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:16,040 volcano, quote UN quote. So what Morton did, they didn't 243 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,680 change the ingredients. It's still baking soda, but they 244 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:25,040 changed the way that the baking soda is being delivered by using 245 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:29,000 something called the Trojan Horse, making air quotes, where 246 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:33,000 they use mini tablets instead of powder and the bicarb is shaped 247 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,320 into thousands of tiny coated mini tablets. 248 00:12:36,560 --> 00:12:39,840 So you mix hydrogel powder with water to create a thick liquid. 249 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:43,120 Then you steer in those mini tablets, you do not chew them, 250 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:45,240 and then you just swallow the mixture. 251 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,440 And the hydrogel protects the tablets from your stomach acids 252 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:52,640 and allows them to then pass into your intestine. 253 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,880 And then while in the intestine, the tablets dissolve and are 254 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,720 absorbed into the blood without creating that gas in your 255 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:01,280 stomach. That's according to Morton. 256 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:02,760 Yes. It'd be interesting if there's 257 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:06,040 any scientific data that shows or lab tests that actually show 258 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,200 it lowering or changing anything in your muscle. 259 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:10,840 Right. That's according to Morton, and 260 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,920 I know you're a skeptic. So for that reason, we've 261 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:19,000 actually set up a time to record with Morton themselves where 262 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,480 they can kind of help decipher it and also tell us about the 263 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,400 studies that they have done, where they go through that. 264 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:26,880 I know you're going to be skeptical. 265 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:28,800 Yeah. You know, you'd actually, it 266 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,000 would be interesting to see if there's actually scientific data 267 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,120 that that shows the mechanism the way they describe it. 268 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,000 Yes, we'll wait for that. But you know, just to kind of 269 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:42,320 show that there's so much new technology out there that we can 270 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,280 that we have, you know, fueling different ways of fueling you 271 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,880 and I talked about it just briefly the other day, how 272 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,960 caffeine absorption is different sublingually than in your 273 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,160 stomach, which also can affect your gut. 274 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:55,840 Your gut causes a lot of problems. 275 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,800 Well, I mean, it's like your stomach is very acidic and it's 276 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:02,080 there in order to help you digest food. 277 00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:07,120 And baking soda is a buffer and also on the neutral side of the 278 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,160 scale, but the stomach acid is really strong. 279 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,680 So, you know, it'd be interesting to see if they can 280 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:18,080 prove that there's some actual absorption beyond the stomach 281 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,960 and how that affects the acid levels in the muscles 282 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:23,720 themselves. The reason why I'm skeptic a bit 283 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,560 too with everything is your body is a really has really good 284 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:31,720 mechanisms for keeping the pH very, very constant or the acid 285 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,720 base level very, very constant. Because if it's not, if it 286 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,320 varies even a small amount, it can cause a lot of the enzymes 287 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:43,040 in your body to be mess up and not work and causes all sorts of 288 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,440 issues, which so it's good that it can, it can do that. 289 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,640 But that also means that when you're trying to manipulate the 290 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,960 pH of your body or certain part of your body, it can be really 291 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,440 difficult. Yes, I mean, you know, I'm, I'm 292 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:56,840 not in biology or anything like that. 293 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:01,640 I obviously I'm just glad that I understood the concept of what 294 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,800 they're trying to do, and if that's a possibility, then 295 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,200 obviously it'd be cool to read those studies too. 296 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,000 It's just not as simple as like you take some base and then the 297 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:12,880 lactic acid in your muscles disappears. 298 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,800 It's not not quite that simple, unfortunately, but we'll see. 299 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:19,680 And maybe just because it, it doesn't necessarily act in the 300 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:23,360 way they describe where the pH of the elastic acid in your 301 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:27,000 muscles gets decreased by this bicarbonate you're ingesting, it 302 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,360 could still have a benefit. And it could have a benefit. 303 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,160 That's the mechanism isn't completely understood. 304 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:34,600 And you know that that's, that's what a lot of medicine and 305 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,320 science is nowadays is they find something and they're like, 306 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,840 that's interesting. You know, you do this and this 307 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:41,840 happens. And then they go back and try to 308 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,200 explain why and they make up a theory of how it happens. 309 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,120 And sometimes it's right and sometimes it's oversimplified 310 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,120 and we really don't know it all the complex details of it. 311 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,400 So just food for thought. All right, so moving on. 312 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:56,400 So what did the other guy do for feeling? 313 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:58,760 Yeah. So the other guy for fueling did 314 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,240 not use Morton. He uses a gel brand that 315 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,800 probably is exploding by now. It's called Santa Madre. 316 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:09,720 And that one, you know, it's an unusual fuel that has high 317 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:14,400 concentration of 100 grams of carbs a bottle, but in a very 318 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,240 low volume. He only had 60 milliliters in 319 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:22,160 there and he also used the Reset gel, which is using tart cherry 320 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,320 flavor to reset the brain's fatigue signals. 321 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,520 So basically what we can learn from both these athletes that 322 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:33,000 they have really trained their guts to push consuming more and 323 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:37,320 more carbs in order to be able to perform at this high level. 324 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,240 And as we learn from the last podcast, there's no limit to the 325 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:41,880 amount of carbs your body can absorb. 326 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:43,960 It's just a limit to how much you can tolerate in your 327 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,680 stomach. So get practicing guys and eat, 328 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:51,200 eat, eat, use those gels during your training and see if you can 329 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,200 push yourself to not throw up. And I guess it'll it'll play, 330 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,520 it'll pay forward. And if you eat enough sodium 331 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,240 bicarb, you can buffer out some lactic acid. 332 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,240 Right. All right, so let's move on to 333 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,480 the mental game because you, Ryan, before we start recording 334 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,280 were saying or maybe we were recording this, but you were 335 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,960 saying that once you have these limits, it's just a number. 336 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,599 It's just two hours now. You're going to see more and 337 00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:18,560 more runners going under it once it's been done. 338 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:22,119 Yeah, I think it's a psychological barrier because 339 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,000 otherwise it's almost an arbitrary time. 340 00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:29,520 I mean they could have made a marathon, could have been 25.2 341 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,800 miles, in which case we would have already surpassed the two 342 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:35,320 hour mark a long time ago. Yes, absolutely. 343 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,000 And Yomi Kiyelcha admitted that he thought himself that it's up 344 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,760 to our marathon was impossible until he was in the middle of 345 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,480 doing it. So this just illustrates a core 346 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:48,440 psychological principle that once a barrier is broken, the 347 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,040 mental ceiling for everyone else in the sport shifts. 348 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:54,080 So the lesson is that seeing someone else achieve the 349 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,200 impossible provides the psychological proof needed to 350 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:00,360 push past your own limits. Yeah, I guess psychological and 351 00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:01,960 physical, they've gotten to the point. 352 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,720 Where they can, really. Maximize their abilities. 353 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:09,440 Yes, and the actionable tip for you listeners is that set 354 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,000 yourself stretch goals. If you've been stuck at that 355 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:17,800 four hour 15 marathon for years, you can use that London energy 356 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,280 to reframe what your body is actually capable of achieving. 357 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:26,440 So I suggest instead of movie night, do marathon watch night 358 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,040 and watch it, get inspired. Share it with your family. 359 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,040 I don't know right? Maybe that'll lead to divorce 360 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:33,880 for some people. Not our household, I. 361 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:40,680 Don't get a choice. I think it's pretty incredible 362 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,400 to see like. How the times just keep getting 363 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,280 faster and faster and it's cool how they can break these 364 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,240 barriers. I feel like, you know, there's, 365 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,080 there's all this like talk about, oh, we've reached the 366 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,320 limit. We've reached the limit and then 367 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,400 for people to be able to surpass it is pretty neat. 368 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:00,360 I mean, I'm, if you look, it's kind of interesting if you find 369 00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:04,560 or just search a graph of like marathon times over the years, 370 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:09,000 you can see how they've decreased significantly year 371 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,720 over year, but. They're getting closer and 372 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,320 closer. To equilibrium I guess, where 373 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,520 they kind of flatten out, but. You really think that's going to 374 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:17,880 happen? I don't know. 375 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,960 I mean, it's, it's interesting, just doing a quick Google search 376 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,920 of the graph, it's kind of cool to see how the times keep 377 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,840 dropping and dropping like a bit at a time. 378 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,080 And then, you know, it also shows the different, some of the 379 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,880 different like advancements that have happened along the way. 380 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:38,640 Like in 1960, the Rome Olympics was won by someone running 381 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,440 barefoot at 2 hours and 15 minutes. 382 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:43,840 That's just nuts, yeah. It's kind of interesting. 383 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:48,040 And then, you know, slowly years later, they got faster and 384 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:50,440 faster. And then, you know, once the 385 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:55,000 carbon plates came in to existence, that dropped the 386 00:19:55,000 --> 00:20:00,960 times not if you look at over the period of from 1910 to 2026, 387 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,360 it didn't really make a significant difference having 388 00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:05,760 the carbon plates, but it but it did make a little jump. 389 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,720 So maybe maybe there'll be a technology that'll help make it 390 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:10,240 faster. Maybe it'll be something else. 391 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,240 And maybe a lot of these times that have happened since 392 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:19,560 Kipchogi's time of two O 1. Back in 2018, maybe since then 393 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:21,760 the shoes have gotten better, but they just haven't been 394 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:23,800 talked about as much. Yeah. 395 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,120 I mean, we review shoes all the time and I've seen a 396 00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:29,640 significant, significant difference, not just because of 397 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,200 the carbon plate, but also all the foams and the way that not 398 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,400 just the shoe propels you for doing your marathon, but if 399 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,280 you're an elite athlete and you're sponsored, your shoe 400 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,840 company is going to give you these shoes all the time. 401 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,400 So in essence, you're running on the best foam out there all the 402 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,040 time, allowing for you to recover really well because not 403 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,800 only do you get faster and you're more springy, but also 404 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,720 the recovery time after wearing shoes like that is significantly 405 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,640 quicker than what it used to be with other shoes where your 406 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,720 muscles are, where your foot muscles are working a lot more. 407 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:03,280 Yeah, that could be a big part of it. 408 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,680 It's not even the. Race itself, but the training 409 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,560 has become less injury prone and allows people to train harder 410 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:12,240 which then allows them to get faster. 411 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,280 Yeah, so we got the shoes, we got the fueling. 412 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:15,440 We just talked about the fueling. 413 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,840 Now, the last thing we are kind of in the middle of talking 414 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,680 about is the mental game. And I think the mental game is 415 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,440 so big, not just knowing that somebody else has broken the 416 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,240 barrier and is humanly possible and now let's do it, but also 417 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,960 the way that we attack it. Sebastian Sauer, for example, 418 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,000 he's a silent assassin because he's really calm. 419 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,960 He's very humble, and he doesn't freak out. 420 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:43,240 He patiently waits until he gets later into the race to push. 421 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,920 Same with John career. The confidence that these guys 422 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,200 have in their skills and believing in themselves and then 423 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:54,320 executing their way of running. No matter what is going on out 424 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,360 there, no matter who's in front of them, pushing their pace, 425 00:21:56,360 --> 00:22:00,320 they just really run their own race and that is some huge 426 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,320 mental strength. I'm going to play you guys a 427 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:07,480 quick tidbit of the interview we had with Sebastian Sawy right 428 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:09,440 before the race. It's not long. 429 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,600 He's very shy and soft spoken, but here's what he said. 430 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:18,120 Be patient and distant and stay humble and success echo. 431 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:24,160 Well prepared for Sunday and ready for success. 432 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:30,000 So you heard him. Be humble, be patient, and 433 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,280 basically you know you believe in your training and you know 434 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,880 you're ready for success based on what you've seen yourself do 435 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,600 in your training. So the lesson here is obviously 436 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,240 that elite performance is as much about the emotional 437 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,880 regulation as it is about the physical fitness. 438 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:50,120 And it's always being able to be quiet in his mind and allowing 439 00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:55,400 himself to find that 416 mile pace and the final 2 kilometers 440 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,960 is pretty crazy. So what you listeners should do, 441 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,240 and of course myself is we should think about internal 442 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,520 pacing and check with our mental state of mile 20. 443 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,840 If your mind is racing, your body will burn through glycogen 444 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:11,840 faster. That has also been shown. 445 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,120 So maybe it's we need to all calm down a little bit. 446 00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:17,600 And then last but not least, let's talk a little bit about 447 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,680 borrowing someone else's confidence. 448 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,840 Kind of like a mental drafting, right, right. 449 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,480 Like we're not just drafting using wind, but we're also 450 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:32,320 mentally drafting by saving mental energy. 451 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:34,240 You don't have to carry the mental load of the race by 452 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,720 yourself. So for the average runner, find 453 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,640 a pace group. That or a running buddy during a 454 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,160 race and let someone else handle that mental math. 455 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,160 Unfortunately, none of us are, well, none of us that are 456 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,680 listening are fast enough to be using Pacers in a race. 457 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:53,560 But that's really what the runners do. 458 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,120 They have Pacers whom they follow and they don't have to, 459 00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,760 you know, constantly check that watch and make sure that they're 460 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,600 running at the right pace. They have somebody that is 461 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,000 running for them and doing that math for them. 462 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,120 Yeah, that's a huge advantage in a way. 463 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,480 I mean, you still have to do the training, obviously, you still 464 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,280 have to be fast, but to not have to focus on that, it really 465 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,440 helps, I'm sure. So just remember that for next 466 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,640 time your next PR starts between your ears. 467 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,120 Do you like that? Yeah, I mean. 468 00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:22,000 I think I like your analogy of like this mental drafting. 469 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,320 I think that's kind of interesting and cool. 470 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,760 And it's a, it's a really, I think it's a good analogy 471 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,720 because drafting is like helps push you not having a fight 472 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,040 against the wind. But mental drafting is kind of 473 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,280 the same way. You if you, if you, you kind of 474 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,880 feel the same way. If you get energy, you're happy, 475 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,760 you're excited. If the run is fun, if you're 476 00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:43,600 excited about something that's coming up or the people you're 477 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,320 around, it gives you a little bit of of a push, just like a 478 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,160 draft. I'm going to tell you a secret. 479 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,440 What what? I do mental drafting all the 480 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,320 time when I hang out with you. Well, that's a compliment to me. 481 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,160 Thank you. Is it 'cause I don't bring my 482 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,440 wallet, I don't bring my keys, I don't look for directions, I 483 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,040 just kind of follow and know that I'll be fed, I'll be tucked 484 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,640 in nicely in bed and there'll be food on my plate. 485 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaking of which line, it is date night, it is Friday. 486 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,920 So Are you ready to wrap this up and we can maybe cook something 487 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,160 up and Netflix it? Maybe watch? 488 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,160 No, not Netflix. What am I saying? 489 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,360 Maybe you watch Sebastian Tsawi destroy the world record. 490 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,760 Yeah, I just thought you said you'd try to convince everyone 491 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,040 to watch marathons. All right. 492 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:33,000 So I hope this was helpful for some of you guys listening this 493 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:38,000 discussion and hopefully a good translation of what happened and 494 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,200 how we can use that in our own running. 495 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,920 I would love some feedback. Also, again, if you want to be 496 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:48,200 part of our new segment, your story, your why, then let me 497 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,880 know and we'll get you to join the podcast family. 498 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:52,360 That's good. And with that, have a good week 499 00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:55,560 of running. You've been listening to the 500 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:57,680 Marathon Running Podcast by Marathon Journal. 501 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,480 If you've enjoyed the show, check us out at 502 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,360 marathonjournal.com or follow us on social media. 503 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:04,480 Happy training.