1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,120 You're listening to episode 295 of the Marathon Running Podcast. 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,360 In this episode, we're going to demystify running shoe foams. 3 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,200 Welcome to the Marathon Running Podcast by Marathon Journal. 4 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:12,920 Join us every week for the insights and inspiration you 5 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,760 need to get from the starting line to the finish line and 6 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:24,920 beyond. Hey runners, and welcome to 7 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:26,960 episode 295. My name is Letty. 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,000 My name is Ryan. And we are back with another 9 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,040 episode of hopefully Value, because in today's episode we're 10 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,640 going to talk about running shoe foams and we're going to 11 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,640 demystify them because, Ryan, have you ever tried to shop for 12 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:42,480 running shoes and looked at all these different lingos and 13 00:00:42,480 --> 00:00:47,120 abbreviations for foams, Eva, TPU, etcetera? 14 00:00:47,160 --> 00:00:51,160 Well, that and a lot of manufacturers like to name 15 00:00:51,160 --> 00:00:53,400 things differently too, even though it's similar. 16 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:54,880 Yes. And I think that almost makes 17 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,320 things less convenient for the shopper because I think 18 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:02,440 eventually everyone just nods and says, OK, this shoe has Piba 19 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,560 foam in it and I'm just going to accept it even though I have no 20 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:07,680 idea what that even means. I think it could be helpful in 21 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,120 the right situation. If you figure out what shoes you 22 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:12,640 like and then you know what they're made out of, you can 23 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,720 look for similar shoes with the same structure, and so that way 24 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:17,880 you know already that you're probably gonna like them. 25 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,360 Yes, exactly. Especially if you want to shop 26 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:22,880 cross brand right? Yeah, and with all of them 27 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,000 naming things differently, it would be good to know what they 28 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:27,720 are. Very true, because every brand 29 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,920 has not just the elements of what's in the foam, but they 30 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:35,320 also have their own proprietary foams and you know, whatever 31 00:01:35,320 --> 00:01:37,400 they trademark the name of that foam. 32 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:38,600 Yeah. So who are we talking to today? 33 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:43,040 Yeah, so today I'm going to be talking to Luca Taccone from 34 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:48,080 Saucony and he really dives into this topic with me, but 35 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:50,800 explaining it from a very basic viewpoint. 36 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,000 We're going to do an overview of all the foams using some really 37 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,120 fun analogies such as baking, right? 38 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,160 Because in the end, creating foam is almost like baking. 39 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:04,080 And then hopefully with that, as we dive deeper into the subject, 40 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,000 we will demystify everything about the foam. 41 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,080 So then when you go shop for your next shoe, you know exactly 42 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:11,640 what you look for. Sounds good, you want to get 43 00:02:11,640 --> 00:02:12,440 into it. Sure. 44 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,760 But I quickly just want to mention that this podcast is 45 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:18,160 available on YouTube on our platform. 46 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,240 You can find us there. And I will link that in the show 47 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,560 notes where you can see my interview with Luca. 48 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,120 And the reason that I'm pointing that out is because Luca does 49 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:32,120 have some shoes that he will show to the audience as we talk 50 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:35,000 about everything. It's not necessary that you must 51 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,400 watch this video, but especially if you do like Saucony, it's 52 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,360 maybe helpful just because he mentioned some products. 53 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:43,560 But that's it. Without any further ado, I'm now 54 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:45,520 going to share my conversation with Luca. 55 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,680 All right, so I'm on today with Luca Chiconi, Director of 56 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,000 Product Engineering at Saucony. Luca, thank you so much for 57 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,560 joining me today. Thank you for having me, Letty. 58 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,600 Yes, I'm super grateful that you agreed to be interviewed today 59 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:03,960 about something that is of interest for literally all 60 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,800 runners because all runners need shoes and we are out there 61 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,160 shopping for shoes. And then we get bombarded by 62 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:14,520 terms like piva, Eva, TPUTP, EE, and now ATPU. 63 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:20,560 And even I was confused about what all these foams entail and 64 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,800 whether I should buy the TPU or the TPEE. 65 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,560 So I'm really grateful you're here to clarify all of that with 66 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,480 us today. The the good news is you're in 67 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:33,200 luck because I deal with this day in and day out and I've been 68 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,680 doing it for over 20 years. So we're in good hands for these 69 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,920 pronunciations, absolutely all these acronyms. 70 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:43,440 And I guess with that, we can maybe start with the foams we 71 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:47,480 will talk about today and give our viewers, listeners and 72 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,760 overview what all these films are about, right? 73 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:54,600 So we're going to do a quick overview of the films PIVA, Eva, 74 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:59,840 TPUTP, EE and ATPU. We're going to say what they 75 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:00,760 are. You're going to say the 76 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,360 acronyms, right? And what they're known for, 77 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:05,800 which ones are the most expensive, and what type of 78 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,480 shoes you will find them in. I know it's one of these 79 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:11,520 daunting subjects of and I'm that type of person. 80 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,080 We're day in and day out. I've been working with foams for 81 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:18,000 over 20 years and I can sit here and talk about aliphatic TPU and 82 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,519 Poly ether block amids and people are just overwhelmed with 83 00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:26,160 all this scientific terminology. What I want to do today is I 84 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:30,320 want to demystify many of the aspects that we spend when it 85 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:36,320 comes to going from base chemistry into final product by 86 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:40,640 using very simple metaphors that I like to put together in order 87 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:42,400 for your listeners to truly enjoy it. 88 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,960 Let's hop into your analogies of it and I'm with the 89 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,040 understanding that you're going to kind of make it a fun 90 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,200 conversation using analogies of food. 91 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:56,280 We've already talked off record about using the food pyramid 92 00:04:56,280 --> 00:05:00,040 with a foam pyramid where we talk about the most entry level 93 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:02,080 ranking them all the way up to the top. 94 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,040 So I'm very excited to hop into that with you. 95 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:09,320 Before I get into anything, this is the secret that's behind what 96 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,880 we do. What if I were to tell you that 97 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,440 making foam in the highest performing running shoes 98 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:19,000 possible is very similar to making bread? 99 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,080 Everybody around the world understands the bread making 100 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:23,640 process. Letty, have you ever made bread 101 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:25,320 before? Absolutely, of course. 102 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,200 Absolutely you need. We have to start off by making 103 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,240 bread dough. With bread dough, we need flour, 104 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:35,680 we need water, we need yeast, we need salt, sugar. 105 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:38,360 There's different types of bread recipes out there. 106 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:40,480 There's thousands of different breads that are out there. 107 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:42,840 And I used to travel to Germany quite a bit. 108 00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:45,720 And one of my favorite things about going to Germany was I 109 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,360 would walk into a bread shop and there were just tons of 110 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:50,400 different types of breads. They would all taste different 111 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,320 and oh man, it smell awesome. But I always remember looking at 112 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,280 the bakers in the background just mixing all kinds of 113 00:05:56,280 --> 00:05:58,760 different ingredients together. They were simple breads and very 114 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:01,200 difficult breads. This is where it comes down to 115 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,680 where Saucony looks at the foam structure of what they're trying 116 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,840 to build from a running shoe standpoint and we get into the 117 00:06:06,840 --> 00:06:09,440 ingredients. What I'm holding up in my hand 118 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:13,440 right here is a peeba based raw material. 119 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,480 And with this peeba based raw material, if we're building a 120 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:20,000 peeba based midsole, we might incorporate other ingredients 121 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:24,080 into it in order to build that bread dough, to get it just 122 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,440 exactly right to where we need it to be. 123 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:30,840 Once we get that dough exactly where we need it to be, we then 124 00:06:30,840 --> 00:06:34,280 have to let the dough rise. We need to put bubbles into it. 125 00:06:34,280 --> 00:06:38,680 This is a very important aspect of creating foam. 126 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:41,600 What if I were to tell you that the reason why I like using 127 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,880 bread as a metaphor is because bread is technically a foam. 128 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,720 It's a foam that you eat. If I look at the cellular 129 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,360 structure of bread very closely, it's not much different than a 130 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:53,800 foam midsole. It's just a different process. 131 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:58,280 And what's fascinating about this is that we have our yeast 132 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:00,200 the way that we let that bread rise. 133 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,000 We have two different types of yeast that we use. 134 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,120 We have traditional methods of making foams, which is using 135 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:07,480 chemical blowing agents and things like that. 136 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,640 But everybody has been talking about supercritical foaming. 137 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:14,400 Supercritical has been that big topic in the running industry, 138 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,800 especially with the the rise of all these super foams and super 139 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,120 shoes, this explosion of innovation that comes into that. 140 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,640 And once we have that bread dough where we want it to be, we 141 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:27,880 then need to figure out, well, how do we want this bread dough 142 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:29,880 to rise? We'll let it rise with either a 143 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:33,040 chemical blowing agent. Usually it's for Evas and stuff 144 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,960 like that. But as we start getting into TP 145 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,040 us and Peebas and TPES, we typically use super critical 146 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,320 foaming with that. Once we have that bread dough 147 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:45,880 rise, we then need to bake it. And the baking process is 148 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:48,560 fascinating because what we're trying to do is we're trying to 149 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:52,240 take that bread that's risen and we want to compress it down to 150 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,440 the geometry of the final sole design. 151 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:59,560 And I have been sitting here with many scientists over the 152 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:04,480 years where the balance between the geometry and the way that 153 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,160 the foam is created can make a massive difference in 154 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,840 performance, especially when you have all these different 155 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:12,280 chemistries that you have access to. 156 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,320 It's that fine tuning of the type of shoe that you're 157 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:20,640 building and the final output of the shoe that you need to create 158 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,120 for the marketplace. But then there comes the most 159 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:27,400 fun part about it is that once I make my dough, I let it rise. 160 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:29,320 I bake it down to the shape that I want. 161 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,080 Well, I need to test it. And how do you test that fresh 162 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,960 loaf of baked bread that you just made while you cut a slice 163 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:37,840 off and you eat it? You might throw away the bread 164 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,559 afterwards because it might taste disgusting and you have to 165 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:42,919 go back to the recipe and try over again. 166 00:08:42,919 --> 00:08:45,720 That's something that we do on a daily basis where we are 167 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:48,960 constantly in the background from engineering and R&D. 168 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,080 We're always mixing up a different recipe. 169 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,000 And the way that we test it is we build a product, we build a 170 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,800 prototype, we put it on our athletes or we mechanically test 171 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,680 it and that'll give us the feedback of did we make 172 00:09:00,680 --> 00:09:03,400 something that can make an athlete perform better or not. 173 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,600 And then that cycle continues until we fine tune that recipe 174 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,120 to all of the products that you're being shown today. 175 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:12,600 The the shoe that you're going to be reviewing for us, the Ride 176 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:16,640 19, it went through that similar process where that particular 177 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:22,720 product or that particular compounding of TPU bead foam was 178 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,600 going through that process of what we're trying to build, the 179 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,760 athlete performance of it and the longevity of the product 180 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,000 itself. I love this analogy, especially 181 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:33,440 because, you know, you talk about bread. 182 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:37,160 It's very relatable. And I'm also German, so I, oh, 183 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:39,200 there's been the 1st 15 years of my life. 184 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:40,720 There's, I know, exactly kind of right. 185 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:42,680 But we don't have the pretzels here that I'm used to. 186 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,200 Oh, yeah. But yeah, so, so that's great. 187 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:49,360 So I think this is making it very understandable for our 188 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:51,520 audience. And I guess with that, the 189 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:55,360 process of you guys creating something, obviously create with 190 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,720 a, you start with an idea and then you have an idea for a shoe 191 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,680 and you define the shoe by defining what the model and 192 00:10:03,680 --> 00:10:06,560 purpose of the shoe is. And then you start creating. 193 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,480 So from that type of perspective, maybe we can start 194 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,960 by demystifying the different types of models of shoes, Not 195 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:17,080 necessarily just sock any, but just in general. 196 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,520 For example, when we're talking about the most basic entry level 197 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:24,600 shoe, the shoe that everybody needs to have that just runs 198 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,160 because obviously beginner runners have one pair of shoes 199 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,160 and not 5 like those of us that are obsessed with shoes. 200 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:34,280 So, you know, let's maybe start by talking about this food 201 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,400 pyramid that we talked about earlier, making it into a foam 202 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,480 pyramid. What's at the bottom of our foam 203 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,080 pyramid? I would say even what's at the 204 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,760 total bottom of our foam pyramid is still going to be ultra 205 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:48,920 premium. I love the fact that you led 206 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:53,920 with the Segway of it comes down to the ideas and the R&D work 207 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:57,080 that we do when we want to create the product at Saucony. 208 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,840 Everything revolves around the foam that we're putting in the 209 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:02,120 product. This is the largest asset that 210 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,480 we have when it comes to what makes our shoes truly special. 211 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:08,560 And I would say we're not compromising on lower end 212 00:11:08,560 --> 00:11:10,760 products. They're still going to be far 213 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,160 more premium aspects to the shoes even compared to our 214 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,120 competition. The two shoes that are entry 215 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,560 level that go into our that go into our shoe, the shoes that 216 00:11:20,560 --> 00:11:23,280 people that actually have to buy if they're starting to get into 217 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:24,840 this. There's a shoe that's called the 218 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,880 Ride 19, which is the one that you were you're going to be 219 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,440 reviewing for a student. And then there's the guide as 220 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,800 well, which is another very premium product. 221 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,720 And there's two entry level foams that we like to talk 222 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,840 about. The first one is ethylene vinyl 223 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:43,680 acetate. This particular foam is a 224 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:45,760 workhorse in the footwear industry. 225 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,600 It's been around the longest. We understand it the most. 226 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,800 It's used in many entry price point materials. 227 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,440 You can tune it. There's thousands of ways of 228 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:56,880 different types of recipes that you can make it in order to get 229 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:58,320 the right product that you're looking for. 230 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,280 And we specifically use this on the latest launch of the guide 231 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,520 due to the fact that the guide has a technology that's called 232 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:08,280 center path technology, which means the side walls are higher, 233 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,480 the templates are wider. And it also has what's called 234 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,360 this meta rocker. This what we call the the roll 235 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:18,040 off effect is it takes very well to that type of geometry. 236 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,800 The technology of Eva that we use is called Power Run, which 237 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,840 is again, it's a entry level material, it's baseline, but 238 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,360 it's highly premium on a shoe such as the guide, which is at 239 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,040 $140, which is our entry level point. 240 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:35,400 On the other side of the spectrum, which is more of our 241 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:39,040 neutral training shoe category is that Ride 19 that we were 242 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:42,320 just speaking about. Instead of using an Eva based 243 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:47,360 material, we decided to use ATPU based material because for a a 244 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,400 neutral base shoe versus a stability base shoe, you want to 245 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,480 make sure that you're tuning the materials just right. 246 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:54,960 This is what's called Power Run Plus. 247 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,480 It is ATPU based material that's specifically tuned for a shoe 248 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,800 such as the Ride 19. It's going to feel soft, it's 249 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,320 going to feel springy, it's going to provide not only that, 250 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:07,440 if you need to go fast in it, it'll go fast. 251 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,320 If you need to go a little bit slower for that long run, it's 252 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:14,200 also ultra accommodating to people that are just getting 253 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,800 into the sport and they need just that Jack of all trade 254 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:18,840 shoe. It works out great for that it's 255 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,040 long lasting, it feels great. It's going to accommodate 256 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,320 everybody's foot and we're all and we're on the 19th iteration 257 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:27,680 of it. We've been making the same type 258 00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:30,480 of product, that same holistic shoe where we understand the 259 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,840 runners that want to get into it and it's we didn't compromise on 260 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:35,880 any of the testing in order to make sure that we're 261 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,800 accommodating people who are just entering into the sport all 262 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:40,280 the way up to the elite athletes. 263 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:48,520 OK, perfect. So just to clarify a little bit 264 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,280 more, when we're talking entry level shoes, we're talking about 265 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:55,000 the daily trainers. We are not, however, talking 266 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,120 about the cushy long run shoes, correct? 267 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:58,440 Correct. Correct. 268 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,320 OK. So we have the food, I mean foam 269 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,240 pier, we've got the foam pyramid, we've got Eva at the 270 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:06,680 bottom. Then from there we've decided to 271 00:14:06,680 --> 00:14:09,720 add TPU with that. And before we start recording, 272 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,240 you and I talked about that, there's obviously many different 273 00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:15,680 types of TPU. Maybe hop into the different 274 00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:19,360 types also because I know you guys have a ATPU just like a lot 275 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,520 of other brands, but you have a little bit more of a proprietary 276 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,200 product with that. And just just to kind of insert 277 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,880 this here, every brand that you guys are going to hear about 278 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:32,040 have their own lingo for when it comes to foam because it's not 279 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:33,400 complicated enough. Yeah. 280 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:36,160 Well, we, we often talk about the marketing name, but at the 281 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,240 same time, everybody has a slightly different recipe and 282 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,400 philosophy and what materials they apply to specific training 283 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,400 shoes. I, I like to say that TPU has 284 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:49,000 been around for quite some time. Saucony has had probably more 285 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,920 institutional knowledge against TPU based materials. 286 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:56,480 TPU foams have been around for us for at least over 10 years 287 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:00,680 and as we keep iterating and change the recipe, the 288 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,800 advancements of supercritical foaming has been a has been a 289 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,680 huge help for us as far as making lighter weight shoes that 290 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,880 can absorb more energy, that can provide more energy return. 291 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,760 We only want to be sure that we're infusing as much 292 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:18,440 innovation as possible when it comes into our latest and 293 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,800 greatest long run training shoes, our latest innovation, 294 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,360 which again, we democratize innovation from some of our most 295 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,280 highest end products possible, where we learn more about 296 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,880 dynamic properties. When we talk about dynamic 297 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:33,640 properties. And I I want to speak a little 298 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,760 bit about this shoe right here. This is our our new Triumph 24. 299 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:43,640 This is going to be that next step up from the Ride 19, which 300 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,760 this is going to be our most innovative long run training 301 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:51,000 shoe, everyday comfort shoe that that's available at the moment. 302 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:55,360 We just recently released it. This is using a new technology 303 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:59,880 of ATPU called Incredilux. Why? 304 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,520 What's the difference between the power and plus that's used 305 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:05,640 in the ride versus the Triumph 24? 306 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,960 This one right here is going to be a much lighter foam that has 307 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:14,440 more stack height in it, which can also absorb more energy. 308 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,680 Whenever you're on a long run, 20 mile long run, this guy right 309 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,800 here is going to feel like you're running on just a bouncy 310 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,560 cloud where it's never going to give up that type of sensation 311 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,320 where it's going to provide that interfacing between your body 312 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,960 and the ground itself to keep you protected throughout 313 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,960 whatever you throw at it. The other thing too is, and this 314 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,920 is something that even blows me away, is that everything is 315 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:39,600 going to start floating away pretty soon. 316 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,160 One of the things with the latest advancements in ATP US 317 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,560 that we're using on this shoe right here, this triumph 318 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,280 specifically, is that everything is getting lighter. 319 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:54,880 This right here is 8.8 oz. For a $170 training shoe that 320 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:59,960 has a stack height of 43 millimeters is very impressive 321 00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:02,960 in my opinion. I would say some of the original 322 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:04,960 triumphs. Back in the day people used to 323 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,839 accept a 12 ounce training show. Now we're only getting people 324 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:10,040 lighter on their feet with these shoes right here. 325 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:11,560 Which is absolutely mind blowing. 326 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,040 It's something that I really noticed this year at the Expo as 327 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,880 well, that you know, you used to pick up a pair of shoes that 328 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,839 were trainers that were supposed to be like clouds. 329 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:22,640 However, they would always be heavy. 330 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,720 They would feel amazing. But now you pick up one of those 331 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:29,400 shoes from whatever brand and they feel so much lighter than 332 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,880 they did before. I would say one of the reasons 333 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:36,320 why we've been able to make all of these, the reason why TPU's 334 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,640 have become very confusing is because it's just the 335 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,400 advancement of being able to foam them differently, being 336 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,640 able to get all of the different ingredients. 337 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,760 Whenever you talk about ATPU, there are thousands of different 338 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:50,080 grades out there and there's there's lower cost ones and 339 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,200 higher cost ones. I often like to say that 340 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,240 whenever, and I'm going to use more cooking metaphors here, 341 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,960 whenever we make a new foam, it's similar to making a pizza. 342 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,000 We're going to make the best pizza possible using the best 343 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:03,600 ingredients. We're going to use a wood fire 344 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,440 oven. We want it to taste good. 345 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,880 We're not going to go to Walmart, buy a cheap $1.00 346 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:11,360 frozen pizza and put it in the oven. 347 00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:13,000 No, we don't want to do that. We want to make sure we're 348 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:14,360 giving the best products possible. 349 00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:16,520 That's where we're investing our most into it and we want to be 350 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,320 sure that we're providing the best equipment possible to the 351 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:20,560 runner. OK, perfect. 352 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:25,120 And I guess so with that, the next one on the foam pyramids 353 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:30,400 after that would be Peeba. Peeba this is now we're starting 354 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,920 getting to hyper materials. As I like to say it, Peeba 355 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,400 stands for Poly ether block amid. 356 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,600 What does that mean? Have you ever heard of nylon 357 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,280 before? Nylon is Peeba. 358 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,560 It's a part, it's a type of nylon. 359 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,920 It's a very high end nylon that's incorporated with a soft 360 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,720 material along with a nylon based material. 361 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,800 This is where you start getting into these materials that can 362 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:01,200 snap back very well but also provide a, what we call the 363 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,640 elastomeric properties. That means it can stretch. 364 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,000 What's beautiful about the chemistry behind Peeba is that 365 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,240 it's one of the first types of materials that we use when they 366 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,120 when these super foams and super shoes started coming out into 367 00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:16,120 the market before any institutional knowledge came out 368 00:19:16,120 --> 00:19:19,240 with other plastics, Peebles were the ones that everybody 369 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,920 went to and we've began to understand them a bit more. 370 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,800 When Saucony first started getting into the carbon fiber 371 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,680 plated running scene, when we started building these ultra 372 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,400 high end merit, we have a shoe that's called the Saucony 373 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,680 Endorphin series. We have a few different types of 374 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:34,320 it. We have a technology that's 375 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:39,280 called power Run PB. The PB stands for some say it 376 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,800 starts her personal best, but I often say it's, it's it's Poly 377 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,680 ether block amid PB, right? And that's how you remember it. 378 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,360 And what's cool about this material is that it's going to 379 00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:50,640 offer ultra lightweight performance. 380 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:55,320 We've been using it in since the year 2021 where athletes have 381 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,520 trusted this material when it comes to maximum energy return, 382 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,480 that snappiness, that responsiveness. 383 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,480 It's going to give you that right supportive nature into 384 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,520 race day. But also something that I've 385 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,640 noticed too is that we have another Endorphin series shoe 386 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,200 that's a takedown from some of our carbon plated shoes called 387 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:16,280 the Speed, which has been a big workforce for us, along with a 388 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,720 new shoe which is just recently released for us. 389 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,960 Is this guy right here? This is called the Saucony 390 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:25,480 Endorphin Azura. This shoe right here is using 391 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:29,960 our Power and PB. It's a 100% Piba based material 392 00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:34,360 in a shoe that's utilizing geometry from some of our most 393 00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:37,760 highest and running shoes. And we're democratizing it down 394 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:41,880 to a $150.00 high end training shoe that everybody can have 395 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:43,520 access to. And what's great about this shoe 396 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,680 right here is that it's going to be very adaptable, especially 397 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,480 for newer runners that want to have that experience of having 398 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:51,520 that snappiness of a Peeba based foam. 399 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:52,480 I love it. I love it. 400 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,440 And so I guess with that snappiness, are we at this point 401 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,600 when we're talking about Peeba from your observation, are we 402 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,840 talking about still daily trainers or more? 403 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,920 Are we more in the area of tempo shoes or perhaps race day shoes? 404 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,920 It started off when we started learning more about Peeba based 405 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,120 foams. It was, it was very much 406 00:21:12,120 --> 00:21:14,560 segmented into tempo race day shoes. 407 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:16,720 People with you would always have that one shoe that you 408 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,120 would save up for race day where it's like, oh, I don't want to 409 00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:22,280 wear into it too much because it's a little bit expensive. 410 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,160 I want to keep its integrity. But now that we're starting to 411 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:30,200 get more experience that we're able to democratize these 412 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,960 materials down to shoes such as the Endorphin Azura. 413 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,440 Historically speaking, Piba based running shoes were always 414 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,360 over $200. They were getting a bit more 415 00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:41,560 costly. One of the things that came with 416 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:45,320 this Saucony Endorphin Azura is that we're taking race day 417 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:49,480 technology in higher end super shoes and we're bringing it down 418 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:53,040 to a price point that's very affordable for everybody to have 419 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,640 that same experience. People can use it now for daily 420 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,120 training and I see more and more people using Piba based foams 421 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:03,560 for daily training in order to build some muscle memory into it 422 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,320 in order to save up for their super shoes in order to be able 423 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:07,760 to perform the best for race day. 424 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:09,800 OK. And I and I guess along with 425 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:14,080 that, how is it possible for brands to finally scale down the 426 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,480 price on this type of shoe? Do you know why? 427 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,360 Because we've been good about scaling up. 428 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,320 Have you ever heard of the economies of scale? 429 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:27,760 The the more, the more that brands begin investing more 430 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:32,960 research into Peebas and TP us and stuff like that, we're able 431 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,720 to build our supply chains in order to be able to make more of 432 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:38,800 it. But also at the same time, by 433 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,480 building a better performance material, we can also start 434 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,720 normalizing those processes, which helps bring down the 435 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,080 prices of that. That's something that's that's 436 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,800 been a very good thing that Saucony is good at, especially 437 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,520 as we, I'm going to tell you at the moment, we make running 438 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,800 equipment. We always focus on the runner 439 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:56,720 first. It's going to be performance 440 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,200 based materials and we want to make sure that the products that 441 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,480 we put it into are going to be the ones that are going to be 442 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,200 appealing to everybody. And because of the way that we 443 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,440 build our shoes and because we get hyper focused on the 444 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,360 materials that we need, we're able to make him at very 445 00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:12,680 affordable price points. Love it. 446 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,240 I love this new development because we've been noticing it 447 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,640 too obviously as people that constantly do shoe reviews that 448 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:20,480 the prices are being driven down finally. 449 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,720 Well, well, the other thing to consider too is that we're 450 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,280 building shoes better than ever. I've been in this industry for 451 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,560 over 20 years, especially in the performance run space, and I've 452 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,800 developed thousands of different types of running shoes. 453 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:38,320 Materials are getting better, shoes are lasting longer. 454 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,400 The pie is getting bigger. There's more runners entering 455 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,760 into the running space. I, I can't believe I even see 456 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,240 Local 5 KS here. They sell out quickly. 457 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,800 I've never seen this phenomenon. It which is wonderful that 458 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:51,360 everybody's getting into the running space. 459 00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:54,000 It's great for our business, obviously, but I, I love the 460 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,480 fact that we now have people that are being vocal about their 461 00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,640 needs and we want to make sure we're supporting them with that. 462 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,720 As I mentioned before, we make running equipment. 463 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,080 We want to support the runner first. 464 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:11,760 Love it, love it. Yeah, I mean, that's beautiful. 465 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,560 And I guess with that, let's hop into another foam that we are 466 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,720 going to be talking about, which is even higher on the pyramid. 467 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,600 And I feel like for the video I'm going to have to overlay a 468 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,440 food pyramid with all the foams. But now we're going to talk 469 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:32,080 about TP EE foam. Thermoplastic polyester 470 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,960 elastomer. It's a big, crazy, complex word 471 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:41,080 that everybody that looks at me when I say that chemistry name, 472 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:42,920 they look at me like I have 10 heads. 473 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,040 While I'm here to tell you, Letty, everybody has had 474 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,960 exposure to TPE in their lifetime. 475 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,440 Have you ever jumped on a trampoline before? 476 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:57,720 What if I were to tell you the foam that we use, what we call 477 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,640 Incredi Run. Incredi Run is our is our most 478 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,800 highest end. We use it on our only most elite 479 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,480 products possible is the same material that's used on the top 480 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,880 fabric of trampolines. The reason why every time 481 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,160 somebody puts on a shoe from Saucony, which is called 482 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:18,160 Increderon, which is made out of TPE, people put it on and they 483 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,320 say I feel like I'm jumping on a trampoline because they're not 484 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:26,280 that far from the truth. It the reason why TPEES are that 485 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,360 special is because it's considered a plastic that's used 486 00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:34,440 for non metallic springs. If I have to make a spring in an 487 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,880 industrial application, I have to use steel. 488 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,400 But if there's a space where I can't use it, most industrial 489 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,360 applications use TPEE. We are able to take a specific 490 00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:49,120 formulation of this particular material, foam it, make it into 491 00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:52,720 mid soles in order to provide that same sensation of being 492 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,920 able to bounce super high on it. Keep in mind the shoes that we 493 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,480 use it in Endorphin Elite 3 was a big update for us. 494 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,920 I, I showed it to you a little bit at Tre. 495 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:07,000 It has it's very soft, especially it's it's very soft 496 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,360 to walk on. In order to get the maximum 497 00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:11,800 amount of performance out of the shoe, you have to put your 498 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,560 maximum effort into it. Going back to the metaphor of 499 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,560 walking on a trampoline and when you when you walk on a 500 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,160 trampoline, at first, you're going to be very unstable. 501 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,320 You're going to feel a trampoline is not meant to be 502 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:24,880 walked on. It's meant to be jumped on. 503 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,200 Once you start jumping on that trampoline is when it starts 504 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,560 providing its most energy bounce coming to it. 505 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:33,520 You're going to notice that with this shoe too. 506 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:35,560 It's very novel in the way that it feels. 507 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,000 It feels like unlike any other super shoe that you've ever worn 508 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,200 before. It's been very fascinating ever 509 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,600 since we released it just because we went into a space 510 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,040 that nobody else was getting into and it's been paying off 511 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,240 very well for the brand. And the other thing I want to 512 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:54,040 mention too is that we took this super high end foam that we're 513 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:58,280 using on our most elite racing product possible and we started 514 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:02,560 democratizing it down into one of our higher end training 515 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,040 shoes. That's called the Paramount Max. 516 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,320 This right here is almost the the big is almost a cousin of 517 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,000 our highest end range training shoes. 518 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,200 So we, we took that TPE foam that people love to wear for 519 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,640 racing. We said, well, how do we build a 520 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:23,960 shoe that's above a shoe such as the Triumph and make it even 521 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,800 better at a, at a $200 price point, this is going to be the 522 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,160 most pinnacle training shoe that you can get. 523 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,400 This foam was specifically tuned for the shoe itself, where it's 524 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,400 can provide even more of that bouncy feel as if you were 525 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,280 juming on a trampoline long lasting miles. 526 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,160 The geometry on this is very high end. 527 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,960 It's very it's going to provide ultra amounts of protection. 528 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,000 And the other best part too is in this is something that 529 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,800 Sockney does a very good job of is we don't just look at the 530 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:53,800 outside of the shoe when it comes to material. 531 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,040 We also look at the inside. Not only is the midsole made out 532 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:01,720 of a very high end TPEE, even the insole, this sock liner is 533 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:03,880 made out of the same material. What you're going to find about 534 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,520 other brands is that they're typically going to use lower end 535 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,640 materials for the sock liner versus US where we go the other 536 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,240 way. We double down on making sure 537 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,640 we're getting that premium, premium foam closer to your 538 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,400 fight this. Is super interesting to see 539 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,920 because yeah, I mean, I've I've heard of some brands having 540 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,400 inserts or I guess you call them sock liners that that are 541 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,880 actually made out of high quality foam. 542 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:32,640 But in in general what we see is just some kind of sock liner 543 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,600 that is just normal or really not anything can. 544 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,880 I share some more secrets with you while I'm on this call. 545 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,040 Absolutely. We all love to hear secrets. 546 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,240 Here's Here's something that nobody often talks about in our 547 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,120 shoes, and I want to make sure I'm communicating to you as 548 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,280 well. If I if I take the Triumph 24 as 549 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,880 an example, we have this ultra high end ATPU midsole, ultra 550 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,440 lightweight. It's going to provide maximum 551 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,200 amounts of energy absorption. The sock liner, as I mentioned 552 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:04,120 before, it's also going to be made out of the ATPU Incredi Lux 553 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,440 material. But when you take the sock liner 554 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,640 out and I look inside of the shoe, do you see this white bit 555 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:11,720 right here? This right here is called the 556 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,280 Strobel board. What the Stroble board is, it's 557 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:19,800 part of the the upper package of the shoe itself, and it makes 558 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,640 this it makes this textile into a 3D shape. 559 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,680 It closes everything off, but you're still standing on top of 560 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,880 it. This right here is made out of a 561 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:33,280 supercritical foam itself. It's a it's a TP EE that will 562 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,000 provide an extra layer of cushioning between all of the 563 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,720 high end ATP use that we have on this. 564 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,440 I'm David. That's essentially interesting. 565 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:43,800 Thanks for sharing that. You're welcome. 566 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:45,680 Secrets out of the bag. Cats out of the bag. 567 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:47,120 Hats out of the bag. Oh no. 568 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,160 So to talk about the TPE, just a little bit more TPE then would 569 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,800 be what we would find obviously in racing shoes, it's probably 570 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,920 the most lightweight. And then I guess let's talk 571 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,960 about the outsoles a little bit, right, because the outsoles is 572 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:06,480 where it's at. I was informed that even if you 573 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:11,080 have a gate that has a tendency to run down the rubber of the 574 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,000 outsole and you're running on the foam and the foam is 575 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,320 exposed, it doesn't really matter that much. 576 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:21,320 Tell me your take on that I. I would argue this is I love 577 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,400 this question. I've had this question come up a 578 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,520 load over the years. One of the things that we spend 579 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,520 quite a bit of time on at Saucony, I often talk about the 580 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:33,120 three TS, testing, testing, testing. 581 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,560 We test prototypes all the time, especially when it comes to the 582 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,760 longevity of a product. If it doesn't last long, we 583 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:42,200 won't put it out in the marketplace. 584 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,560 We'll spend more time in R&D to make sure that's right. 585 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,640 We, we spent quite a bit of time on foams and on midsoles. 586 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,680 We also spend quite a bit of time on outsoles. 587 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:56,040 We have a proprietary rubber technology that's called XT900. 588 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,520 This is something that we use quite a bit on many of our 589 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,000 training shoes, so on and so forth. 590 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,560 We make sure that these materials are lasting 304 591 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,560 hundred, 500 miles. I would say that if you're 592 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,440 starting to wear out your outsole to the point of it's 593 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,600 hitting the foam itself, it's probably a good time to maybe 594 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,320 start looking at other running shoes at that point or start 595 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,960 maybe buying something new. What I will say is that rubber 596 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,160 performance and making sure you're providing enough grip, 597 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,760 especially as you're running, you want to make sure that 598 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:27,440 you're protecting yourself from that. 599 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,160 The rubber outsole is what's going to truly be providing that 600 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,360 sure footedness, your gate safe. Well, keep in mind when you're 601 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,240 running, you're going to be moving your feet at a fairly 602 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,200 rapid rate. You don't want to compromise on 603 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:39,800 grip. And I say that some of our 604 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,120 technologies that we have for outsoles don't compromise on 605 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:44,600 that at. All, I appreciate you saying 606 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,920 that, but just to play devil's advocate a little bit here, a 607 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:53,560 lot of shoes, outsoles do not go all the way to the sides and 608 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:58,720 that lack of having that rubber towards the margins of the shoe 609 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,080 for a lot of us. For me for example, I don't know 610 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:05,760 what I do with my left foot, but on the left side, on the on the 611 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,360 side, literally on the side, it runs down much faster. 612 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:14,480 It might be even after 20-30 miles that the foam starts to be 613 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,000 exposed, so. It starts to abrade. 614 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,600 Yeah, the shoe's still grippy and I still enjoy running it, 615 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:20,960 and it just feels just as springy. 616 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,760 But it's just your gait. And I feel like brands in 617 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,720 general seem to be a little bit greedy about having that outsole 618 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,280 going all the way towards the the end, you know? 619 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:35,040 I'm wondering why that is. I know exactly what you mean, I 620 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,760 totally understand it. Here's the dilemma with what we 621 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,560 have to do, especially when it comes to R&D of products. 622 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,560 Not everybody has the same gait cycle. 623 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,160 You wear your, you wear out your shoes in the forefoot on the 624 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,040 lateral side. I don't do that. 625 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,240 Whenever we send shoes out for testing, we always look at 626 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,760 where, where patterns are probably the most important 627 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,440 thing that you want to look at. You want to be sure that you're 628 00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:00,400 capturing a majority of your consumer base or your audience, 629 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,320 that the global population of everybody's stride. 630 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,640 You're going to have people that are going to be short, tall, 631 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,080 different builds, things like that. 632 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,000 Running in your shoes, you want to appeal to that. 633 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:15,800 Sometimes the engineering of insetting the rubber slightly 634 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:20,000 where the where it's you have a little bit of foam exposure on 635 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,360 the side wall that can be specifically engineered to help 636 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,280 provide cushioning, especially that what we call the pistoning 637 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,840 effect here where it does provide some articulation to the 638 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:33,640 foam. And it's one of the reasons why 639 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:35,320 we end up in setting the rubber there. 640 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,600 You might see a little bit of abrasion from that aspect on, on 641 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,960 a minority of the population that might have the stride or 642 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,000 the biomechanical gate that does that. 643 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,160 But I will promise if it's only a local section where it's a 644 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,040 braiding slightly, it's not going to compromise the entire 645 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,560 performance of the shoe. Of course, if you have, if one 646 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,240 side or the other side of the sidewall is completely gone, for 647 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,840 sure, if it's a major, if it's major wear and tear, for sure. 648 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,160 But if it's a small area, that's just something that we tend to 649 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,320 work through. But it's great feedback because 650 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,560 every time we receive feedback from the marketplace, I love 651 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,400 listening to runners. I love listening to feedback in 652 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,960 the marketplace where you see things like that pop up. 653 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,400 You're able to then take those learnings and inform the next 654 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,440 product from there. That's why we have such strong 655 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,400 followings with many of our franchise models such as Triumph 656 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,679 or Hurricane. We're on the 24th iteration of 657 00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:28,360 the Triumph or on the 26th version of the Hurricane. 658 00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:32,760 It's all because we're informed by runners and by testing in the 659 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,360 marketplace. Sometimes the innovation, in my 660 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,400 opinion, is just being consistent. 661 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,520 The more consistent that you are with that product, the better it 662 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:42,560 becomes. I'll tell you right now, one of 663 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,000 the things that runners often say is don't change my shoe. 664 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:46,719 I want them. I want to run the same shoe 665 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,560 forever because that's just the and that can make my job 666 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,679 difficult. But at the same time, you have 667 00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:55,360 to be sure that you're taking all these advancements with 668 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,840 foams and materials that make them last longer, that make them 669 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,120 have different proprioceptive properties to them to help 670 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,960 enhance the performance of all runners applied to that. 671 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:06,680 And it's a very fine balance of that. 672 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,000 And I'm really glad that Saucony does that, because trust me as a 673 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,320 person that test shoes, there's nothing more frustrating than 674 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,840 getting the second version of a shoe and then determining this 675 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,600 is a completely different shoe. Why didn't they just rename it? 676 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,480 And I should have gotten 5 pairs of the first version because I 677 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,240 liked it so much. Just to give you a little bit 678 00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:30,440 more context behind it, shoes such as the Triumph, the new 679 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,080 Triumph and the new Hurricane and the Paramount, the people 680 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,720 that test these shoes for us, they truly understand the 681 00:35:37,720 --> 00:35:40,280 franchise models. Most of the people that test the 682 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,760 Triumph have been testing the Triumph for us probably over 10 683 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:45,200 years. They don't work for the brand. 684 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,800 They're just private testers where they give us feedback. 685 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:50,840 And that's something that I love about runners is that they're 686 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,960 very particular about their shoes and they will give 687 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,200 feedback on. We listen because again, we make 688 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,560 running equipment. We want to make sure that we're 689 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:00,760 building the best product possible with the most 690 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:05,240 innovation, but also making sure that the familiar that being 691 00:36:05,240 --> 00:36:08,320 able to keep it familiar to the person that likes the franchise. 692 00:36:08,720 --> 00:36:10,360 Yes, love it. Thank you for that. 693 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,840 I guess I have maybe one more question that I think is of 694 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,400 going to be a great value. And we're talking about films. 695 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,440 Let's talk about inserting plates in there, full plate. 696 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,160 Now they're not just using carbon plates, they're using 697 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,960 other plates for stability and then they're also using carbon 698 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,960 for stability and just trainers and we see it all around. 699 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,040 Maybe give us a little bit of a rundown about that. 700 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,200 Let's talk about plates. This is something that I deal 701 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:39,960 with on a daily basis, Carbon fiber, nylon plates, three 702 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,760 quarter length, full length. Remember how I talked about and 703 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:44,760 I'm going to say democratized quite a bit. 704 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:46,800 That's the best language that I can use. 705 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,800 Whenever we build a high end shoe, we're going to put our 706 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,160 most innovation in it. It's going to be usually the 707 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,960 highest cost because it's the most technological advancement 708 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:56,960 and we're going to learn from it. 709 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:01,600 When we initially built the very first Endorphin Pro, which was 710 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,960 the first super shoe that Soccate came out with in 2021, 711 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,880 it used a PIPA based foam power run PB with a carbon fiber 712 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:10,240 plate. Remember how I said we like to 713 00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:13,320 listen to runners, especially with testing and testing and 714 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,320 testing? We then Start learning more 715 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,200 about plates and how the human body is interacting with the 716 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,800 plates against these foams. As time went on and as we're 717 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,800 going into present day, our latest release of the Endorphin 718 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,520 Elite series, which is the third version, we have this plate 719 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,280 right here in my hand and we went from a plate that didn't 720 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,400 have any shape to it. It was this a typical what we 721 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,640 call a spoon shaped plate. We then started figuring out 722 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,640 that being able to not hinder somebody's movement from one 723 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,760 side of their foot to their other side of the foot can help 724 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,320 enhance performance. We often talk about the 725 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,000 longitude, what we talked about longitudinal stiffness, which 726 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,360 means we want stiffness going from toe all the way to heel 727 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,640 because you want to have that feeling of I'm rolling forward. 728 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:00,120 Anytime you put a super shoe on, it feels like you're just being 729 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:01,920 pushed forward. We want to keep that. 730 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,360 We want to keep that feeling intact, but we want to make sure 731 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,240 that from transitioning from your lateral side to your medial 732 00:38:08,240 --> 00:38:11,760 side, the outside of your shoe to the inside of your shoe is 733 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,920 not being hindered whatsoever. And that's where we talked about 734 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,320 plates on our highest end shoes. We have these different slots 735 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,120 and prongs that are built into it in order to help articulate 736 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,360 that. When we talk about the natural 737 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,640 foot movement and these super shoes, that's something that 738 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:28,320 we've made a great advancement in. 739 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,760 These are full length products. This right here is used on the 740 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:34,000 Endorphin Pro, which does not have some of the same shaping 741 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,480 that's on here. When we talk about our ultra 742 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,840 highest and racing shoe possible, we want to be sure 743 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,040 that we're providing the most extreme or the most augmented 744 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:46,200 version of that feeling versus some of the more classic feeling 745 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,480 ones where hey, the Endorphin Pro series people love it. 746 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,480 They're going to have that same sensation that they did as if 747 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,080 they were just buying the first one. 748 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,360 When it comes to that, the trickling down effect of the 749 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,840 different type of plate technologies, we have a another 750 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,160 shoe that's the entry level shoe to the well, it's it used to be 751 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,000 the entry level Endorphin series shoe called the speed. 752 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,360 It's still a loved model by many people. 753 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:13,080 This is more of that that daily trainer tempo effort type shoe. 754 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,520 You might not necessarily need as much stiffness in that shoe. 755 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,920 You want a bit more naturality. You still want some plate 756 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,920 stiffness, but you still want to be able to have that movement of 757 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,480 the foam and have the foam do more of the heavy lift. 758 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,120 When it comes to your training miles, that's where we decide to 759 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:33,160 use the nylon plated shoe, the specific type of nylon that's 760 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,360 used on that particular type of product. 761 00:39:35,720 --> 00:39:38,200 It's a bit more compliant, it's a bit more flexible. 762 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,320 It's just adding in just enough stiffness to it to give it that 763 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,800 little extra pop and to provide what we call the speed roll 764 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,800 technology and how much we want to make sure that 4 foot is 765 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:49,920 rocking as you're going through your gait. 766 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:51,720 I love this, thank you for explaining it. 767 00:39:51,720 --> 00:39:56,040 I mean it makes complete sense to not have it be hindering your 768 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,960 gait as you're in the speed shoes, but then for the shoes 769 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,280 where you need stability you have a different type of plate. 770 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,040 The one thing I didn't want to mention Letty, is that remember 771 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:06,000 how we were talking about the Endorphin Azura? 772 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:10,240 This right here is going to be the baby brother to the 773 00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:12,760 Endorphin speed. Something that's been coming up 774 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,320 quite a bit, especially as a shoes been releasing out in the 775 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,840 market is people often say, well, why do I need a non plated 776 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,360 version of a shoe that looks very similar to a speed? 777 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,280 Are those shoes redundant? I I say absolutely not. 778 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,160 This is almost this is definitely a big gomit between a 779 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,560 plated shoe that's made out of nylon versus a shoe that does 780 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,560 not have a plate in it. And we're relying on geometry in 781 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,440 order to provide that same sensation of being propelled 782 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,600 forward. The other secret to this shoe 783 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,920 and why it makes it that much more different compared to an 784 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:50,440 Endorphin Speed shoe, is that the secret inside of the shoe is 785 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:52,000 that it was. We didn't. 786 00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:54,160 We didn't build it directly off of the Speed. 787 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,360 We started with the Endorphin Elite fit. 788 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,480 We started with the geometry. We started with all that in 789 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,760 order to build the shoe. That's why it's going to have a 790 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:06,560 bit more of that nice rolling sensation without being too 791 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:10,480 stiff to the point where people can still enjoy the ride of it 792 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,320 and it's still great for a daily trainer. 793 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:13,640 Perfectly explained. Thank you. 794 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:18,160 Luca, is there anything else that you think somebody that is 795 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,680 looking for shoes and being confused by all the films that 796 00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:25,320 now has a little bit of a knowledge of at least what form 797 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,960 they should look for and which type of shoe should know? 798 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,400 The best piece of advice that I can give to any new runner 799 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,800 entering into the sport? There's two pieces of advice 800 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,280 that I want to give them. Follow a training plan, don't 801 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,480 over train. That's the number one thing I 802 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:39,960 can tell you. It's exciting to get into 803 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,280 running. It's exciting to run your first 804 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,480 5K. Be smart about your training. 805 00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:48,360 The second thing, and this is something that I'm always going 806 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,320 to tell somebody, obviously we spend quite a bit of time to 807 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,960 make sure that our shoes work for all runners, for all 808 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:55,840 different types, for all different speeds. 809 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,240 Make sure that you have a great shoe rotation. 810 00:41:58,240 --> 00:42:02,400 Each one of these foams that's used in these shoes is going to 811 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,440 is going to use slightly different muscle groups compared 812 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:07,960 to another one. I know we spoke about a little 813 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:12,280 bit about the difference between or the the effect of geometry 814 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:14,520 against the specific type of foam that's used. 815 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:18,840 It can activate certain muscles that other shoes can't do. 816 00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,720 It's always good to have that solid shoe rotation. 817 00:42:21,720 --> 00:42:24,680 It's OK to start off with one or two pairs if you're starting to 818 00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:28,760 get into it, but as you enter deeper into the sport and you're 819 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,360 starting to get into super shoes, make sure you're trying 820 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:32,920 out something that you're most comfortable in. 821 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,880 Your body's going to start adapting because as you start 822 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,160 running, your body is going to change and your shoe knees are 823 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:41,480 going to change along with it. Make sure that you're always 824 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:45,120 staying on top of just having a solid shoe rotation and you're 825 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,040 going to be a happy and fit runner. 826 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,040 Perfectly, said Luca. And if somebody wants to follow 827 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,120 you along, is there anywhere you put out content? 828 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:57,040 Some have said I enjoy building content on LinkedIn. 829 00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,720 I'm always, I'm pretty active on that platform. 830 00:42:59,720 --> 00:43:02,240 I'm always willing to ask if people want to reach out to me 831 00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:04,480 directly on there with questions or anything like that. 832 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,800 I'm always on there. Thank you for having me, Lettie. 833 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,640 It's been a fun podcast. I enjoyed speaking about 834 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:11,760 products and science and engineering. 835 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,240 I hope it was helpful. It was very helpful. 836 00:43:14,240 --> 00:43:19,120 We appreciate the analogies and for you to take the time to kind 837 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,320 of, you know, base it down for us to really understand what 838 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:23,640 we're looking for when we're shopping. 839 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,000 Thank you, Lucas, so much for speaking with me and taking the 840 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,480 time to really dive into this topic. 841 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:35,680 We greatly appreciate it. Yes, hopefully listeners are now 842 00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:37,840 attuned to all the different films. 843 00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:41,800 Let us know if this is helpful and then we can have more 844 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,840 episodes to get into the details of our equipment as runners. 845 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:48,680 Yes, and I personally also really enjoy this type of 846 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,440 episode. Ryan I really like diving deeply 847 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:53,880 into subjects like that. I guess I'm a nerd at heart 848 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,160 after all. Sometimes I also find that even 849 00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:00,480 though you know the details, the specific details might not be 850 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,720 really relevant to you. Learning about them helps you 851 00:44:03,720 --> 00:44:07,240 understand the whole process and what's being what's happening 852 00:44:07,240 --> 00:44:09,840 better. And it can sometimes help you 853 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,000 guide your decisions. Kind of like I was saying at the 854 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:15,000 beginning, like if you find some shoes that you really like and 855 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:18,280 then you're noticed that hey, this is a certain type of foam 856 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,320 and then other shoes you don't like and it's a different type, 857 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,360 then maybe, you know, in the future it'll help you and your 858 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,320 shopping to kind of pinpoint ones that you're going to like 859 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,120 better or not. Likewise with the, you know, 860 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,880 even the uppers, maybe they feel different or they rub on your 861 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,440 foot funny or anything else. Yes, Ryan, you're so right and 862 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:38,080 there's so many shoes on the market. 863 00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,480 But I'm really glad also that we got to talk to Luca and get a 864 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:45,520 little bit of a Saucony point of view for all that because I 865 00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:49,440 haven't tried or tested very many Saucony shoes, but they 866 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,840 seem to be one of the shoes that are most consistent. 867 00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:56,400 And as Luke, I was saying, you have a shoe and you build on it 868 00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,480 using feedback. But unlike some other brands, 869 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,440 you will not see a completely different shoe with the previous 870 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,360 models. Rather, they probably would just 871 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:08,720 rename it, which is honestly one of my frustrations that, you 872 00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:11,840 know, I mentioned that in my conversation with him, but 873 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,360 there's the second version of a shoe and it's a completely 874 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,160 different shoe. And I'm just thinking, why 875 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,760 didn't I buy more of the first kind of shoes one. 876 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,120 And then two why didn't they just give the shoe a brand new 877 00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:22,240 name? And keep the old one. 878 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,400 Yeah. And then hopefully knowing a 879 00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,280 little bit about the, you know, structure of the shoe and the 880 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:31,240 details of it can help you find one similar same brand. 881 00:45:31,240 --> 00:45:33,320 Or if you had to go to another brand, then at least, you know, 882 00:45:33,720 --> 00:45:36,200 hey, maybe if I look for these same characteristics, I'll find 883 00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:38,000 one that I like. Exactly. 884 00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:42,360 So that's it for today guys. Thank you so much for tuning in. 885 00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:46,240 Again, this video is available on YouTube if you want to get 886 00:45:46,240 --> 00:45:47,920 the visuals. So with that. 887 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:52,880 Have a great week of running. You've been listening to the 888 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,000 Marathon Running Podcast by Marathon Journal. 889 00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:57,800 If you've enjoyed the show, check us out at 890 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,680 marathonjournal.com or follow us on social media. 891 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:01,840 Happy training.