1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,080 You're listening to episode 248 of the Marathon Running Podcast. 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:08,160 In this episode, we're going to talk about 3 elite mindset tips 3 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:19,000 every marathoner should know. This is the Marathon Running 4 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,560 Podcast by Letty and Ryan from We Got the Runs. 5 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,880 Join us in our running community for weekly content that is 6 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:28,000 motivational, educational, and inspirational. 7 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:30,600 And let the Marathon running podcast take you from the 8 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,200 starting line to the finish line and beyond. 9 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,240 Hey runners, and welcome to episode 248. 10 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:41,960 My name is Letty. My name is Ryan. 11 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:47,640 And welcome to our weekly show. Happy Valentine's Day to Ryan 12 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:50,680 and all of you guys. And to you, Letty. 13 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,800 Thank you so much. It's morning time on Friday. 14 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,960 It is actually Valentine's Day and I just can't wait to see 15 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,400 what you have in store for us today, Ryan. 16 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:05,800 Neither can I. That's what happens, you guys, 17 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,320 if you're married for 10 years, well, I'll probably get a ton of 18 00:01:09,320 --> 00:01:12,400 messages from people that are going to be like, Oh no, we've 19 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,720 been married for 20 years and I still get roses every 20 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:19,800 Valentine's Day. We do date night every Fridays 21 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,560 and I think that that's more important than one day a year of 22 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:27,240 Valentine's Day is we make we do Valentine's Day every Friday. 23 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,000 And roses will still be appreciated, and hopefully 24 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,320 they'll be in my mailbox in a few hours. 25 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,600 Yeah. Anyway, so welcome back to our 26 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:41,000 show and today we have a very interesting and very cool topic. 27 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:45,760 As you guys know, I feel like we can train our bodies, but our 28 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,520 mind is a different story. I know every runner is different 29 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,160 and I personally struggle a lot with mindset. 30 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:55,200 So for that reason, I always love having guests on that are 31 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:57,000 willing and able to talk about mindsets. 32 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,920 And also to you guys, if you guys are mindset coaches that 33 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,280 are not millennials and life coaches, I'm just kidding, then 34 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:06,520 reach out to me because I would love to talk to you. 35 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:08,880 Your mind is weak. I think so. 36 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,160 When it comes to running, it is always have the last words that 37 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,720 I get from you before I go on a trip, which is just enjoy letty, 38 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,080 just have fun. So whenever things get hard, I'm 39 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,120 like, well, nobody really cares about my time except for myself. 40 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:23,040 So I'm just going to enjoy this and have fun. 41 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,000 And then I feel like I'm just getting slower and slower. 42 00:02:27,640 --> 00:02:29,760 Well, if you don't work at it, you're not going to get faster, 43 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:31,440 that's true. I know, but I think you're 44 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,920 trying to help me by not making me nervous and then in the end, 45 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,200 when it's the hardest for me, it backfires and I just and I never 46 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:40,720 push myself. So you blame it on me? 47 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:43,720 Kind of. OK, so anyway. 48 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:46,520 So you love talking about mindset? 49 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:51,320 I love it because it's an aspect of running that you cannot see 50 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,800 while you can see your physical changes. 51 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,440 Say you needed to drop weight. I'm not saying people need to, 52 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,840 I'm just saying if you are a person that needed to drop 53 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,760 weight and running was your vehicle for it, then you can see 54 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,720 that. If you're wanting to get faster 55 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:09,160 than you can see the times on your garment getting faster, but 56 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,600 nobody really can tell what's going on between the two ears. 57 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:15,680 But what if somebody looks happy? 58 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,480 So looking happy is really not an indicator. 59 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,640 It's like social media, right? Everybody posts when they're 60 00:03:21,640 --> 00:03:23,720 happy. When you're sad, you usually 61 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:25,760 don't start putting posts. When you're fighting with your 62 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,120 husband, you're not going to post about your fight. 63 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,120 So you only see the happy moments, but you don't really 64 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:32,960 know what's going on in someone's mind. 65 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:37,480 And so I think that's it's so powerful to talk with someone 66 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:43,200 who can potentially give you tools to work on yourself and 67 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,240 then that could potentially reflect in your running. 68 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:49,800 OK, tell me about our guest. Yeah. 69 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:54,480 So in order to discuss this topic, I spoke with Hugo, who 70 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,560 used to be an elite runner, still runs really fast. 71 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:01,600 His PR is a 212. He now lives in Kenya with his 72 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:06,120 wife and three children and hosts running camps, etcetera 73 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,720 there. And I connected with him because 74 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:14,640 as you know, we went to Kenya this January and he is a wealth 75 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,320 of knowledge when it comes to mindset coaching, just because 76 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,360 he had pushed himself in his younger years a whole lot. 77 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:25,400 And even though he didn't think he could benefit from this 78 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:29,480 mindset coaching, he felt like he really did in the end and he 79 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:35,160 carried that on along with his PR for the next 20 years. 212 is 80 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,720 fast, and especially fast if you think about the fact that this 81 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,760 was run during a time when there were no super shoes, just to 82 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:45,120 point that out. I think anyone who's gotten to 83 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,080 that level should have some experience and be able to 84 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:52,360 provide some knowledge as to what they did or how to achieve 85 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:54,840 such good results. Yeah, exactly. 86 00:04:54,840 --> 00:04:59,200 And he also really went into reading a ton of articles and 87 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,960 really studying mindset and how it works. 88 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:06,520 And then now he is coaching runners with his knowledge, 89 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,280 which is really great. So yeah, so we're going to talk 90 00:05:09,280 --> 00:05:12,440 about that. So Are you ready to listen to 91 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:13,760 that? Let's get into it. 92 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,160 All right, so without any further ado, I'm now going to 93 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:21,720 play my conversation with Hugo. All right, so I'm on here with 94 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:23,480 Hugo. Hugo, thank you so much for 95 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,840 joining me. Thank you for having me, Leti. 96 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,480 Of course. And today we're going to do one 97 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,120 of my favorite subjects, which is mental training. 98 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,600 But before we do that, maybe you can tell our listeners, just 99 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,920 briefly, what you do and what your PR is. 100 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,280 Yeah, sure, sure. So my name is Hugo Fendenbrook. 101 00:05:42,280 --> 00:05:44,800 I'm from the Netherlands, but I've been living in Kenya for 102 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,640 the last 17 years. I'm a running coach, human 103 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:53,000 movement scientist and. But mostly BC just coaching 104 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,320 elite and amateur runners. And yeah, I used to be a 105 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,680 professional runner myself, ran 212 on the marathon. 106 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,800 That was my main, Yeah, personal best. 107 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:05,680 But I've been running every distance from 800 meters up to 108 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,600 marathon. That's amazing and that's 212 109 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,200 without super shoes I have to add. 110 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:12,880 Yeah, yeah, that was 20 years ago. 111 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:15,880 I'm now 48 years. So I stopped my professional 112 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:18,400 career. Let me see. 113 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,800 Yeah, 2014, so bit more than 10 years ago. 114 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:24,360 Are you still running marathons for fun? 115 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,040 No, actually not. But I am now preparing for a 10 116 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,960 mile race in the Netherlands. I mean preparing is a big word, 117 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:36,200 but you know when we have 3 kids and when they were really small 118 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,880 it was hard for me to have enough time to train. 119 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:43,880 But now I can run about 30 to 40 miles a week maybe. 120 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:48,640 And yeah, so now at least I feel like, OK, maybe maybe I can do a 121 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:53,040 race and test myself a bit just for fun, you know, just like all 122 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:57,400 of us, just like running for fun and always testing, you know, 123 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,160 trying to improve ourselves. Exactly. 124 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,200 That's awesome. All right, so we're going to 125 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:05,600 talk about the mental part of running at least a little bit. 126 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:09,200 I know there is a ton to cover, but let's talk about that. 127 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:15,600 So how much in your in your opinion is running mental versus 128 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,960 physical? Yeah, so that's, it's kind of 129 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:22,040 hard to say because it's so intertwined. 130 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:26,920 You know, my, my sports psychologist used to say like 131 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,640 it's 90% physical and it's 90% mental. 132 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:35,080 And yeah, so just to show like you, you can't really pin like 133 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:40,000 an exact percentage on that, but I do know it, it, it matters a 134 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,840 tone like really a lot. So I first started noticing this 135 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:50,240 when I was 202122 years old and I felt like I wasn't really 136 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:52,160 performing in races the way I shoot. 137 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,800 And then my coach suggested that I visit a sports psychologist. 138 00:07:55,960 --> 00:08:00,480 And so I did that for about two years and it, it changed my 139 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,720 career completely. Like it had a massive impact on 140 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:07,360 my running career because he really, he was a very good 141 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:09,840 sports psychologist working with the Olympic team as well. 142 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:15,840 And he really taught me how to focus and how to get the best 143 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:17,720 performance anytime I needed that. 144 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:22,480 And I can honestly say that from the age of maybe 2324 until the 145 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:27,080 end of my career when I was 37, I never had a single bad race 146 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,800 because of all the mental tools that he taught me. 147 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:34,440 That sounds amazing. So let's hop into that a little 148 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,200 bit. Do you remember your first time 149 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,799 that you went to the psychologist and maybe walk us 150 00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:44,400 through how he assesses you, or I mean an athlete in general, 151 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:46,800 What what, what happens when you go to one of those? 152 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,920 So, yeah, I'm, I'm sure you have different methods and different 153 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:53,000 people working in different ways. 154 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,280 But what I learned from him. So that was interesting, 155 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:56,920 actually. Yeah. 156 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,600 So I came in and I remember thinking that these, you know, I 157 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,000 learned in school about Sigmund Freud and, you know, 158 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,920 psychoanalytics and all that. So I thought probably I'll have 159 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,360 to lie down on a sofa and he'll discuss with me, you know, and 160 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:11,640 what is the problem? Why? 161 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:13,440 Why do you think you're not performing? 162 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,280 But there was none of that. This first question was like, 163 00:09:17,560 --> 00:09:20,880 how would you describe yourself? And I said, well, I, I think I'm 164 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:24,520 kind of a perfectionist. And he answered, oh, I hate 165 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,120 perfectionists. And I was like, why? 166 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,200 I thought it's good to be a perfectionist. 167 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,680 And he said, you know, when you're a perfectionist, you're 168 00:09:31,680 --> 00:09:33,760 never satisfied. It's never good enough. 169 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:38,360 And I said, yeah, good point. And he said, you know, I just 170 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:40,080 tried to be a little bit better every day. 171 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,840 And then he quickly took me outside. 172 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,240 There was a golf field behind the golf course. 173 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:51,000 I mean, behind his house and he started teaching me how to play 174 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:52,480 golf, which I'd never done in my life. 175 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,280 So he just taught me, you know, how to swing my hips and how to 176 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,440 hold my arms. And I was like, what am I doing 177 00:09:58,440 --> 00:09:59,720 here? I'm paying a lot of money. 178 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:02,760 I thought we were going to talk and now he's taking me to play 179 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,920 golf. I mean, I know golf is expensive 180 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:07,920 as well, but I'm interested in golf, right? 181 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:12,080 So, but after some time I I got it and and this was kind of an 182 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:16,320 example of what he did with me. The rest of the sessions was 183 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:22,200 like his main point was if you want to perform in whatever you 184 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:27,360 do, you have to empty your mind and focus all your attention on 185 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,760 the now, on the present. And it doesn't matter if you're 186 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,880 stressed, it doesn't matter if you know you you had a fight 187 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,840 with your girlfriend or you had an exam or whatever is there. 188 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:42,320 You should learn to empty your mind and focus on the task ahead 189 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,960 of you. So yeah, that was the basics, 190 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:47,480 actually. And then he told me, of course, 191 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,720 some other skills, you know, like we started doing 192 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:54,560 visualization. We started doing, how do you 193 00:10:54,560 --> 00:10:56,480 call it, progressive muscle relaxation. 194 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,440 It's a kind of a form of meditation that I found very, 195 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,720 very effective for me. It was effective anyway. 196 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,360 And yeah, so do those are different things. 197 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,280 We can talk about more of that in the next 30 minutes. 198 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:12,200 But yeah, so those were the things that we started doing. 199 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,400 That's interesting. And I'm not going to hop ahead 200 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,640 on these relaxations of muscles, but let's talk about the first 201 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:21,840 one that you mentioned. You mentioned focusing on the 202 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:27,000 task ahead, emptying your mind. How do you now, as a coach, 203 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:31,400 teach your clients or runners to do that? 204 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:39,360 Yeah, that's a good one. So I mean, it, it starts with 205 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,800 most of the time, OK, So it depends a bit on the athlete 206 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:44,480 because some of them do it naturally. 207 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,080 And then I don't want to disturb that process too much. 208 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,360 But there's others who get distracted too much and they get 209 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,200 like, you know, negative thoughts like, yeah, I think we 210 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,640 all recognize that you're running a race and the first 211 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,640 half everything is fine because you're not so tired and you're 212 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:02,440 feeling OK. But then at some point, you're 213 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,120 starting to get tired. You're starting, you know, to 214 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:06,800 feel like, oh, my legs are heavy. 215 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:08,520 I don't know if I can maintain this space. 216 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,200 So that's when kind of the negative thoughts are start 217 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:15,440 coming in. So the first thing is kind of 218 00:12:15,680 --> 00:12:20,360 recognizing that having these thoughts, it's, it is not a 219 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:24,520 problem per SE. Like, you know, you just you, 220 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:26,880 you have to accept that these thoughts are coming in, but you 221 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,600 want to replace them with something more effective. 222 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,200 So one of the tools that I normally teach my runners is 223 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,280 self talk. I found that one of the most 224 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:42,280 effective mental tools during during races and even during 225 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,120 training, right? So I don't know if you've heard 226 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:49,760 of self or positive self talk. I have heard of it, but I've 227 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:53,720 also, I also recognize and, and I think we have to take a step 228 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,360 back that there are, there's two types of people, right? 229 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,360 There's the people that hear themselves talk all day long. 230 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:03,800 And then there's people that think more in an illustrative 231 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,080 concept, right? You've you've heard of that, I'm 232 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,920 sure, where you know, you think in images and it's quiet in your 233 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,520 mind. And I feel like for someone that 234 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,080 has a mind that's quiet, where you just kind of see things in 235 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,520 illustrations, it's harder to self talk because you're not 236 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:22,560 used to talking to yourself. Right, right, right. 237 00:13:22,560 --> 00:13:29,400 That's a good interesting point. So would you then start to focus 238 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:34,560 on like practicing positive images, because images can 239 00:13:34,560 --> 00:13:39,440 still, you know, distract you of course in a way and take away 240 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:41,000 your focus? That's it. 241 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:42,880 That's a really good idea because I'm I'm one of the 242 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,240 people. It's it's dead quiet in my mind. 243 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:49,040 And I also don't think in a language, I think in concepts, 244 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:50,320 right? You've you've heard of that, 245 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:52,680 right? Yeah, I've heard of that, yes. 246 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:56,760 But then self talk. I don't have negative self talk, 247 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:00,840 but I know I have negative thoughts when I'm running, but 248 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:05,080 it's more like a feeling. And so for me, it's really hard 249 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,000 to self talk because I'm not in the practice of ever talking to 250 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,800 myself. Right, right, right. 251 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:15,720 OK, yeah, That's interesting. So to be honest, I know about 252 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,120 it, but I've never had an athlete telling me that. 253 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:22,160 But I would say then, yeah, I think you can still practice 254 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:26,160 with that. So basically what you want is 255 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:30,240 you don't want to be distracted during races and during training 256 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,520 sessions, right, With negative emotions. 257 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,800 Negative feelings, because they can. 258 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:36,400 Yeah. Basically what they do is they 259 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,920 take your focus away and they they slow you down, right? 260 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:47,600 So in preparation for training and races, you can, in your 261 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:51,320 case, I would get like positive images of yourself, like running 262 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:55,760 smooth or seeing yourself, like pushing through the pain, just 263 00:14:55,760 --> 00:15:00,640 having that image in your head of yourself persevering, doing 264 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,640 really well. Or you know, you can have images 265 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,120 in your head of even sometimes negative things. 266 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,680 I would, when I would prepare myself for a marathon, I would 267 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:13,520 also visualize falling down or missing my bottle, but then 268 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,880 getting back up and gradually closing the group or, you know, 269 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:20,720 if I would miss my bottle, which actually, you know, this is 270 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,840 something that elite runners are busy with because every 5 271 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,960 kilometer there's a bottle for themselves specifically with 272 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,000 their sports drink. And then you kind of feel like 273 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,520 you depend on that. And then if you miss it because 274 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:37,160 maybe, you know, you're running too fast or in my case, there 275 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,080 was a Kenyan guy who took my bottles in front of me. 276 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:45,880 So that's a bit of a problem. So yeah, you have to start 277 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:52,480 imagining that that happens and then just seeing yourself doing 278 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,880 well despite those setbacks. And, you know, maybe telling you 279 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:01,360 seeing yourself grabbing water from the water station or in the 280 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,920 case you're falling down or you're dropping from a group, 281 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:09,160 you you imagine or see yourself pushing hard by yourself. 282 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:11,480 Yeah. So there's, there's different 283 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,120 things that you. So now I'm actually overlapping 284 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,720 between visualization and self talk. 285 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,440 But there, I think there's a lot of overlap there. 286 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:25,960 Visualization is basically when you're using all your senses, 287 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:31,720 but only in your mind, right? To see yourself run in a race or 288 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:36,560 in a in a workout. Basically what I would do when I 289 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:42,000 visualize a race, I would close my eyes and I feel the wind 290 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,520 through my hair. I may smell the grass or I may 291 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:50,000 smell the, the massage oil from the, you know, runners around 292 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,520 me. I can hear the crowd or I can 293 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,960 hear the footsteps. I can hear my breathing. 294 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:00,600 So I tried to make it very lively and I really visualize 295 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:05,240 like how it will be and how I want it to be, right. 296 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:10,640 So I feel like that that type of visualization, if you do it more 297 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:14,720 often, it also helps you to, to keep that focus. 298 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,520 So that's, that's one thing. And then the other thing is 299 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:24,760 meditation. From my experience, doing 300 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:30,240 meditation is a very effective tool to like gradually learn to 301 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,120 be in the present. I I don't know if you understand 302 00:17:33,120 --> 00:17:36,560 what I mean with that. I think I do, but maybe walk us 303 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:40,600 through what you would do and how often would you implement 304 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:42,520 that in your training? Would you do that once a week, 305 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,040 once a day? And then how long does it take 306 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,480 someone to actually get to that state that you want them to be 307 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,080 in? Yeah, it's a good one. 308 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:56,960 So I, I started doing that once a week actually, and I would 309 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:01,720 just do it at home in my room, you know, and mostly with eyes 310 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:05,240 closed. And I would start first focusing 311 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:09,200 on my breathing, just breathing in and out normally and just 312 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,160 focusing on that. And that is already a form of 313 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:17,760 being in the present because you try consciously to keep your 314 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,680 mind, to engage your mind only with the breathing that you're 315 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,240 doing. And of course, you will get 316 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:26,880 destructive thoughts. Suddenly you think like, oh, I 317 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:29,920 have to go to the shop, like some grocery shopping. 318 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,240 You think like, oh, I have to prepare for this exam. 319 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:37,000 But you kind of OK, You see that thought coming in and you're 320 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,760 like, OK, you know, it's not very effective right now. 321 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,080 So you just let that pass and go back to focusing on your 322 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:46,320 breathing. And so I would start with focus 323 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,160 on breathing for a few minutes and then I'm going to do the 324 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,600 progressive muscle relaxation. Basically what that is, is that 325 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:57,480 you start with the toes, then the calves, the hamstrings, you, 326 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,360 you work your way up, starting with the lower muscles and 327 00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:02,840 finishing with muscles in your neck and your face. 328 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:08,800 And 1 by 1, you contract the muscle for a few seconds, right? 329 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,800 You like, you flex your muscle, you, you put tension on it for a 330 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:16,520 few seconds and then you release that tension, right? 331 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,880 So you, you tense your muscle and then you relax it. 332 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:22,560 And I would normally do that twice per muscle. 333 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,440 And because you are so busy with this with like in between, 334 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,000 you're focusing on your breathing and then you, you 335 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:33,280 know, you go to your calf, you, you flex your calf and you relax 336 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:34,640 it. And then normally I would tell 337 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:39,520 myself a certain, how do you call it like a word, like a 338 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:41,880 mantra and call it the mantra, right? 339 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,600 So every time when I relax a muscle, I would tell myself 340 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,160 something like loam, that's a Dutch word meaning like 341 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,320 something like relaxed. But it can be any word, doesn't 342 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,000 matter which word it is. You pick a word and you tell 343 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,840 yourself that word every time when you relax your muscles. 344 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,640 And what that does is that at some point that word by itself, 345 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,520 thinking that word, will trigger relaxation in your body. 346 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:12,800 So I would come to a point after doing this for like 8 or 12 347 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:17,080 weeks, I would feel like I start to recognize like, hey, I feel 348 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,720 relaxed, but actually there's like 5% tension in my shoulders 349 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,000 and I can then relax it. So that was like an added 350 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,920 advantage that I could relax my muscles better. 351 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,960 But another, another advantage from that, I felt like it grew 352 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,800 my confidence. I would feel like, yeah, I'm 353 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,280 getting more confident. Not like, not like a confidence 354 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,840 of like I'm a good, I'm special or something. 355 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,920 But the confidence of just trusting yourself, you know, 356 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,720 like having less doubt about yourself. 357 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,040 And I think the biggest thing for me is that it helps to 358 00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:58,560 improve my focus because you're constantly busy trying to be in 359 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:04,040 the present, right? So when you're doing meditation, 360 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,920 you know, it looks like it's something very like, I don't 361 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:09,440 know how you call it, like hocus pocus. 362 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,440 And some athletes felt like, oh, that's crazy, you know, because 363 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,080 it should just be about training hard and resting. 364 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,640 And yes, of course you do all of that. 365 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:23,760 But you know, one thing about training and racing is that the 366 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,600 the time it gets really hard is when people lose their focus. 367 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:29,160 That's when their attention goes away. 368 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,800 And that's when they start telling yourself, oh, it's OK, 369 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,160 you can slow down, it's getting painful. 370 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,320 You know, it's enough now. But when you're really focused 371 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:41,240 at that point, you can give 10% extra or even more. 372 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:46,520 And and that focus for me came from those meditation exercises. 373 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,040 OK, You just said something really interesting because this 374 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:54,520 is something that happens to me almost every race that you just 375 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:56,720 said. You get you start feeling the 376 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:58,920 fatigue and you tell yourself, oh, it's OK. 377 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,560 I do that every single race. My listeners know that every 378 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:07,160 single race I think about how badly I want the 320 versus 315 379 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,880 and then the three twenty wins because in my head I'm like, oh, 380 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,320 my kids are not going to care if I'm 5 minutes faster. 381 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,720 I'm not going to win anything. And everything just goes out the 382 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:21,080 window. So maybe someone like me right 383 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:26,160 where you're running and you start feeling the fatigue and 384 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,760 you're telling yourself it's OK, you're not going to slow down 385 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:30,560 that much, you're just going to slow down a little bit. 386 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,320 And then those minutes matter. So what would you tell someone 387 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:35,080 like me? Yeah. 388 00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:39,760 Well, I think first of all, we have to realize that when we get 389 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,520 so tired, when we feel like slowing down, when we feel like 390 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:47,320 stopping, it's not actually that we we have to slow down. 391 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,080 That tiredness comes from our brain. 392 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:55,840 It's basically it's our mind that how do you say it's in 393 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,360 control of our body and in contact with our body in a way 394 00:22:58,360 --> 00:23:01,880 that it, it realizes like, OK, there's certain level of 395 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,000 lactate, your body temperature goes up, your heart rate is 396 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,040 high. So it's like your brain realizes 397 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,560 you're getting in the danger zone and then it wants you to 398 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,200 slow down for basically self preservation. 399 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,880 You know, And I mean, this is a good thing in a way, because you 400 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,000 don't want to run until you die, obviously. 401 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:27,880 But the reality is you, you, you can't override that 100%, right? 402 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,080 Because if you could be able to override all those feelings of 403 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,440 tiredness, you would collapse at some point. 404 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,720 So, and, and we don't even Olympic athletes who, you know, 405 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,080 run a 10,000 meter, we've seen people running 10,000 meters on 406 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,280 the track and they battle it out and they give 100% of what they 407 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,240 have. The moment they cross the finish 408 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,160 line, they're still OK. They're able to make a lap of 409 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,120 honor. They're, you know, so we can't, 410 00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:54,160 we have to realize like we can't kill ourselves in a race or in 411 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,400 training, but our mind definitely tries to slow us 412 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,960 down. And yeah, the way to override 413 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:06,720 that is by doing these things like meditation is more like, I 414 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,760 would feel like that for me is like maintenance of your car, 415 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,760 Like it's you have to do it, OK, Maintenance of your car you do 416 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,880 probably once a year. But what I mean is like the, the 417 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:24,840 meditation is something that works gradually and you kind of 418 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,360 have to do it all of the time a little bit just like brushing 419 00:24:27,360 --> 00:24:29,880 your teeth. That's it more, you know, so 420 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:31,640 it's like you do it once a week. OK. 421 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,520 I haven't done it anymore for quite some time now actually. 422 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,480 Maybe I should. But it's, it's, it's effective 423 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,080 in the long run. But something like self talk can 424 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,040 be effective quite immediately. You know, I've, I've had 425 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:51,520 seminars where I told, you know, a group of 20 runners, like, you 426 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,800 know, this is what you do when you do the self talk. 427 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,840 And two months later, half of them would say like, wow, you 428 00:24:57,840 --> 00:24:59,720 know, I've broken my personal best. 429 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,320 I've been able to breakthrough this barrier of, I don't know, 430 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,320 40 minutes or 35 minutes on a 10K or three hours on a 431 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,320 marathon. And the self talk helped me with 432 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,760 that because, yeah, that kept them in the present that, you 433 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,560 know, the self talk is not so much even about, like, boosting 434 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,760 yourself, saying you're so good, you can do this. 435 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,240 It's mostly about getting rid of those negative thinking where 436 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,360 you are, like, it's OK, you know, you're fine. 437 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,680 Like you say your kids don't care whether you're running 320 438 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,240 or 315. And that's true. 439 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:36,520 I mean, we know that, right? Like generally, yeah. 440 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,520 It's we're just doing it for ourselves. 441 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:44,000 But these thoughts are kind of a trick of our mind, you know, to 442 00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:49,320 slow us down down and kind of keep us away from what our mind 443 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,960 perceives as the danger zone. So then let's hop into what you 444 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,760 told that group. What sort of self talk did you 445 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:02,840 tell them about? So you, you have to use, of 446 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,360 course, what works for you. But generally with self talk, it 447 00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:10,880 works for most people. It works best in, in how do you 448 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:15,040 call it the second person like you can do this rather than I 449 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:22,720 can do this, right? And for in terms of running, OK, 450 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,440 so there's different types of self talk. 451 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,760 You can you have motivational self talk and instructional self 452 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:30,560 talk. So the motivational self talk is 453 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,320 stuff like you can do this, you are strong, this is your day. 454 00:26:35,120 --> 00:26:40,760 And the instructional self talk is stuff like keep pushing hard, 455 00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:44,760 stay behind that runner, relax your shoulders. 456 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,080 So that's about like what you should do, right? 457 00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:54,320 For technical sports like football or golf, instructional 458 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,000 self talk works very well. In running, it's more mixed. 459 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,280 You would most people would do well with the motivational self 460 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,920 talk. So just, you know, stuff like 461 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:10,240 you can do this, you know, be, get, get ready for the Sprint, 462 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,640 you know, you know how to persevere. 463 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:19,240 What works for me personally, a lot like I would tell myself 464 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,960 like, you know, how to suffer so that when I get really tired, 465 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,160 when I'm feeling the pain, I feel like this is my thing. 466 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,840 And I would also tell myself when you're suffering, know that 467 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,400 the others suffer more. And that may not be true, but I 468 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:34,840 believe that at that point, right? 469 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:39,320 So that's what matters. So, yeah, this is the kind of 470 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:43,280 stuff that would work for me. I I I just saw actually today a 471 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,120 video clip of Eliud Kipchoga saying roughly the same thing, 472 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,520 You know, that people are scared of pain. 473 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:53,120 But he said when you're feeling pain when you're running, I 474 00:27:53,120 --> 00:27:56,520 mean, not knee pain, right, or Oculus pain, but the kind of 475 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,160 running pain that you have, He said enjoy that pain because 476 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,480 that is where success is in the inside. 477 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,320 That pain is where you find success. 478 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,920 So if you're scared of that pain and you're going out of it, 479 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,000 you're running away from the success, right? 480 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,440 And success doesn't have to be winning a race. 481 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,440 In the case of Eliot, that's winning a race. 482 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:20,680 But success can also be running sub 315, right? 483 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,200 That's a success for you. And then you know you success is 484 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,520 everything where you feel like you've accomplished something 485 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,120 special. I love this. 486 00:28:31,120 --> 00:28:35,920 This is I feel like we're just barely touching the the the 487 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,240 start of of this whole subject. And I know that before we talked 488 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,240 to you said you could talk for hours about this. 489 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:45,760 Hopefully I can take you up on this and continue this in in the 490 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,320 next episode, but this is already a really good starting 491 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,200 point. So thank you so much for this. 492 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,800 Thank you, Hugo, so much for this conversation. 493 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,200 I cannot wait to have you back on. 494 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,760 We've already scheduled the next episode because there's so much 495 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,640 more to talk about when it comes to mindset. 496 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,520 I think Ryan, he loves talking about mindset, maybe even more 497 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,040 than I do, if not equally. And the whole time. 498 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:20,160 I mean, we don't do video podcasts, but if you could have 499 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,680 seen our conversation, my jaw was dropped probably 90% of the 500 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,200 time. Yeah, that's interesting. 501 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,160 And I think, I think, I think it's a really important part of 502 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:32,680 running. And even though it might be 503 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,240 different for every individual, I think there still is a big 504 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,960 aspect of it that it can affect your performance. 505 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,440 Exactly. Especially if you were a person 506 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:46,040 that needs it, then it's good to have that in your toolbox for 507 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:51,000 when your race gets really long. So that is that. 508 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,320 So Hugo, I'm like I said, gonna put all his information in our 509 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,720 show notes. And then next week we're going 510 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,160 to have another interesting episode, Ryan. 511 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,400 We're going to talk to another run coach about how to get 512 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,920 faster without killing yourself in essence. 513 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,400 That's always a good thing. Yes, I've been recently learning 514 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:17,440 about how to title our podcasts better to have more people 515 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,760 enticed to click on it. So from now on, our titles are 516 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:23,760 probably going to be a little bit more dramatic. 517 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:31,080 When Letty died in Kenya. All right, so with that, that's 518 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,560 it for this week's episode. Thank you so much for tuning in 519 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,920 and until next time. Have a good week and running. 520 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,480 Thanks for tuning in. For more information and 521 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,400 marathon running news, please head to 522 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:53,720 www.marathonrunningpodcast.com and we'll be back next week.