1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:04,840 You're listening to episode 179 of the Marathon Running Podcast. 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:07,880 In this episode, we're going to talk about doping in 3 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:17,440 marathoning. This is the. 4 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:20,280 Marathon Running Podcast by Letty and Ryan from We Got The 5 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:22,640 Runs. Join us in our running community 6 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:24,880 for Weekly. Content that is motivational, 7 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,640 educational, and inspirational, and that the Marathon Running 8 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:31,480 Podcast take you from the starting line to the finish line 9 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:40,160 and beyond. Hey runners and welcome to 10 00:00:40,160 --> 00:00:42,880 episode 179. My name is Letty. 11 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,040 My name is Ryan. Welcome back if you're a long 12 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,040 time listener and bear with us here for a minute because we're 13 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:50,920 going to take some time to welcome all of our new 14 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:53,640 listeners. So we're doing that because we 15 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,320 are expecting a few new listeners. 16 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,800 We started advertising on the Marathon Training Academy as 17 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:02,440 well as Spotify. We are always happy about new 18 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:04,480 listeners because we have so much to share. 19 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,600 Our podcast has been growing. So again, if you are new 20 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:09,360 welcome. Lady, you wanna give us a little 21 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,280 history of the podcast? Yeah, So I started this podcast 22 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,440 almost four years ago. Our original name was. 23 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,680 We got the runs and Ryan loved that name. 24 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:21,240 I thought it was funny just because it matches your 25 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:22,160 personality. Perfect. 26 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,640 Not that I have the runs a lot, but I have a lot of sarcasm and 27 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:27,640 that type of humour in me. Ryan always says I have the 28 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:30,640 humour of a 12 year old boy. Sometimes yes and no, not 29 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,480 because of the runs. My first half year going to 30 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,280 university, I was a declared advertising major. 31 00:01:37,320 --> 00:01:40,080 It didn't last, but I do remember little things such as 32 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,280 you kind of have to put out there unless you have a big 33 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:44,240 name, you have to put out there what you do. 34 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,360 Nobody is going to Google having the runs and running. 35 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,480 And that was that for we got the runs now we still use, we got 36 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:54,600 the runs, but it's just the name of the LLC that we used to hold 37 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:57,760 our running business. So the change of name helped the 38 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:01,550 podcast grow a lot. It is not our full time job 39 00:02:01,590 --> 00:02:03,310 however. I am a lawyer by trade. 40 00:02:03,310 --> 00:02:06,430 Ryan is a medical doctor, but this podcast is our pride and 41 00:02:06,430 --> 00:02:08,229 joy and we love watching it grow. 42 00:02:08,470 --> 00:02:11,150 And some history of Our Lady. She grew up in Germany. 43 00:02:11,270 --> 00:02:13,070 That's why sometimes she says things that are a little 44 00:02:13,070 --> 00:02:14,070 different. I don't know if they people 45 00:02:14,070 --> 00:02:16,670 either say it here, but they say like, you know, I went to the 46 00:02:16,670 --> 00:02:19,190 university. Most people just don't say that, 47 00:02:19,310 --> 00:02:23,190 but Oh well, there we go. We try to keep it light hearted 48 00:02:23,190 --> 00:02:26,450 as we already mentioned and fun. But we do bring on some serious 49 00:02:26,450 --> 00:02:28,490 guests. Like seriously amazing guests, 50 00:02:28,490 --> 00:02:31,530 but also serious guests. So if you stick with us, you'll 51 00:02:31,530 --> 00:02:34,610 see that we don't pretend to be experts, but rather we want to 52 00:02:34,610 --> 00:02:37,730 connect the running community and bring on the experts and 53 00:02:37,730 --> 00:02:40,610 deliver information with good sources if we can so. 54 00:02:41,140 --> 00:02:44,100 I think that was a good summary. So what's going on this week? 55 00:02:44,300 --> 00:02:47,860 Yes, so in this week's podcast, we are going to talk about 56 00:02:47,860 --> 00:02:50,500 doping and marathoning. Why? 57 00:02:50,500 --> 00:02:52,460 Because everybody is talking about it. 58 00:02:52,460 --> 00:02:55,340 There's been a lot of records and we by no means are alleging 59 00:02:55,340 --> 00:02:58,580 that any of these phenomenal runners are doping. 60 00:02:58,580 --> 00:03:00,540 But there is a lot of talk about it. 61 00:03:00,540 --> 00:03:04,060 So we figured, let's educate ourselves a little bit about 62 00:03:04,220 --> 00:03:07,260 what all that means. I think that any time you have 63 00:03:07,260 --> 00:03:09,740 like people breaking records, which that happened recently, 64 00:03:09,740 --> 00:03:13,100 then people always look into it like, oh why, you know, why are 65 00:03:13,100 --> 00:03:14,460 they breaking records all of a sudden? 66 00:03:14,620 --> 00:03:16,940 And you can look in the past on other things. 67 00:03:16,940 --> 00:03:19,060 Like I know in the Olympics one year they had swimming where 68 00:03:19,060 --> 00:03:22,900 they had a full body suit and everyone was breaking records 69 00:03:22,900 --> 00:03:24,180 there. Then they actually banned it 70 00:03:24,180 --> 00:03:25,820 afterwards. And then running recently they 71 00:03:25,820 --> 00:03:30,740 had shoes, you know, that became like too much, too high, the 72 00:03:30,740 --> 00:03:33,380 cushion pad or too many carbon plates or something. 73 00:03:33,500 --> 00:03:34,900 And then they ended up banning those. 74 00:03:35,470 --> 00:03:38,950 But you know, people are always looking for reasons why, you 75 00:03:38,950 --> 00:03:41,310 know, people are breaking records and the other thing is 76 00:03:41,310 --> 00:03:43,470 potentially doping. So some people have been talking 77 00:03:43,470 --> 00:03:46,310 about that, like taking drugs in order to improve their 78 00:03:46,310 --> 00:03:49,670 performance. So we thought we'd try to seek 79 00:03:49,670 --> 00:03:54,150 out the people responsible for catching the dopers and just see 80 00:03:54,150 --> 00:03:56,070 if they would be willing to talk to us. 81 00:03:56,230 --> 00:04:00,470 As much as everyone wants to think that all the athletes are 82 00:04:00,470 --> 00:04:04,030 pure and nobody ever tries to cheat, you know it does 83 00:04:04,030 --> 00:04:06,740 definitely happen. And they occasionally catch 84 00:04:06,740 --> 00:04:09,140 people. So that he researched some cases 85 00:04:09,140 --> 00:04:11,980 of people getting caught doping recently, right? 86 00:04:12,460 --> 00:04:16,660 Yeah, so we have one of this guy used to be the sixth fastest 87 00:04:16,660 --> 00:04:18,899 marathoner in the world. Tightest Ekira. 88 00:04:19,100 --> 00:04:23,260 I'm not sure I'm pronouncing it correctly, but he is a 31 year 89 00:04:23,260 --> 00:04:27,920 old Kenyan and he tested positive and tried to manipulate 90 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:32,280 the health records from the hospital where he was tested. 91 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,000 So that's really unfortunate and one that is actually a little 92 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,750 bit more close to my heart. That was when I ran my very 93 00:04:39,750 --> 00:04:43,670 first Boston in 2021, back when they had that first October 94 00:04:43,870 --> 00:04:49,910 marathon after the pandemic, the female winner, Diana Kibyoke of 95 00:04:49,910 --> 00:04:52,870 Kenya. She had tested positive for 96 00:04:52,870 --> 00:04:57,830 doping obviously afterwards. So while I was at Boston, they 97 00:04:57,830 --> 00:05:02,420 did her her award ceremony and all that stuff that could have 98 00:05:02,420 --> 00:05:06,740 gone to the next runner. So I feel like while it's not 99 00:05:06,740 --> 00:05:12,380 fair, it's also sad to see the runner up not being able to be 100 00:05:12,380 --> 00:05:17,020 in the light of, you know, they work so hard and they do it 101 00:05:17,060 --> 00:05:21,340 hopefully cleanly and then they don't even get that publicity 102 00:05:21,340 --> 00:05:24,380 that can help them also in so many ways with sponsorships and 103 00:05:24,380 --> 00:05:26,850 everything else. Yeah, I feel like it's always a 104 00:05:26,850 --> 00:05:29,290 game back and forth between the people trying to catch the 105 00:05:29,290 --> 00:05:33,250 dopers and the people doing the performance enhancing, right? 106 00:05:33,290 --> 00:05:37,290 And yeah, so then, you know, I wanted to know more about it. 107 00:05:37,290 --> 00:05:41,330 I reached out to the US Anti Doping Agency. 108 00:05:41,730 --> 00:05:44,690 Shout out to Tucker Pettigrew who is the Communications 109 00:05:44,690 --> 00:05:49,210 Coordinator who got back to me and was able to coordinate this 110 00:05:49,210 --> 00:05:54,170 amazing chat with USADA Director of Science Doctor Laura Lewis. 111 00:05:54,790 --> 00:05:57,830 I asked her a lot of questions, very basic questions to get some 112 00:05:57,830 --> 00:06:01,390 good definitions such as what is doping, how is doping done most 113 00:06:01,390 --> 00:06:04,670 commonly? What do we do about doping? 114 00:06:04,670 --> 00:06:08,250 Given that those marathons take place in different places of the 115 00:06:08,250 --> 00:06:12,770 world, Who is in charge of what? What procedures are in place for 116 00:06:12,810 --> 00:06:16,050 monitoring this and all this in terms of the sport of 117 00:06:16,050 --> 00:06:18,250 marathoning? Also, I asked her about the Gray 118 00:06:18,250 --> 00:06:20,210 zone. The Gray zone is a term that 119 00:06:20,210 --> 00:06:22,370 people that have researched doping a little bit might have 120 00:06:22,370 --> 00:06:25,930 heard about it, so she's going to explain that and some more. 121 00:06:26,090 --> 00:06:27,170 That sounds really cool. Actually. 122 00:06:27,170 --> 00:06:28,890 I'm interested too, so let's get into it. 123 00:06:29,130 --> 00:06:30,810 All right. So without any further ado, 124 00:06:30,810 --> 00:06:34,090 we're now going to play our conversation with doctor Laura 125 00:06:34,090 --> 00:06:38,510 Lewis. All right, so I'm on. 126 00:06:38,510 --> 00:06:40,990 Here with Laura Lewis. Laura, thank. 127 00:06:40,990 --> 00:06:44,470 You so much for joining me. Thanks for having me. 128 00:06:45,230 --> 00:06:47,550 Yeah, of course. And for our audience. 129 00:06:47,550 --> 00:06:50,750 Can you please tell us who? You are and what you do at the 130 00:06:50,750 --> 00:06:53,070 agency, Yeah. So. 131 00:06:53,070 --> 00:06:57,510 I am the Director of Science at USADA, so the US Anti Doping 132 00:06:57,510 --> 00:07:02,110 Agency, we're the national Anti Doping organization that's 133 00:07:02,110 --> 00:07:06,620 responsible for the testing of. Olympic and Paralympic athletes 134 00:07:06,620 --> 00:07:10,300 in the US. So in the my role as science, as 135 00:07:10,300 --> 00:07:14,820 Director of Science, I work with pretty much every single team in 136 00:07:14,820 --> 00:07:18,180 the organization through from education. 137 00:07:18,860 --> 00:07:23,140 Helping to, you know educate athletes on the rules regarding 138 00:07:23,140 --> 00:07:27,380 anti doping, but also with our testing teams to work out who 139 00:07:27,380 --> 00:07:29,860 we're going to test with what tests and ensure that you know 140 00:07:29,860 --> 00:07:32,860 we're we're testing the right people at the right time. 141 00:07:33,540 --> 00:07:37,860 And then I also provide scientific advice to legal to 142 00:07:37,860 --> 00:07:43,420 our legal team if and in the event that an athlete does test 143 00:07:43,420 --> 00:07:45,460 positive. And there's, you know, various 144 00:07:45,460 --> 00:07:48,380 scientific questions regarding that case. 145 00:07:49,350 --> 00:07:50,950 Perfect. So we are in good hands here 146 00:07:50,950 --> 00:07:54,350 with our questions and I want to start with something very basic. 147 00:07:54,350 --> 00:07:57,110 So I've sent you the questions before. 148 00:07:57,110 --> 00:07:59,990 I want to go to question #2, just doping as a. 149 00:07:59,990 --> 00:08:02,790 Term that we often hear. But maybe you can give us a 150 00:08:02,790 --> 00:08:06,150 clear definition and then maybe go into a little bit. 151 00:08:06,470 --> 00:08:10,590 Of what doping means when it comes to the sport of marathon 152 00:08:10,590 --> 00:08:15,270 running, what type of doping that is and what is considered 153 00:08:15,270 --> 00:08:17,940 doping? Yeah, absolutely. 154 00:08:17,940 --> 00:08:23,420 So I guess really broadly speaking, doping refers to the 155 00:08:23,420 --> 00:08:27,820 use of a prohibited substance or a prohibited method or 156 00:08:27,820 --> 00:08:32,860 technique, which serves to enhance performance. 157 00:08:32,860 --> 00:08:36,539 So for marathon runners, it's. Something that you might take or 158 00:08:36,539 --> 00:08:40,179 you might do to your body to increase your performance. 159 00:08:40,460 --> 00:08:44,700 Now that might be performance in training so that ultimately you 160 00:08:44,700 --> 00:08:47,740 can perform better on race day. Or it might be something that 161 00:08:47,740 --> 00:08:52,580 you specifically do around a competition to make sure that 162 00:08:52,580 --> 00:08:54,540 you run faster at the end of the day. 163 00:08:54,540 --> 00:09:02,100 So that's really important for people to know that athletes who 164 00:09:02,100 --> 00:09:05,100 do choose to dope. Might do it far away from 165 00:09:05,100 --> 00:09:09,700 competition just to get that competitive edge in in terms of 166 00:09:09,700 --> 00:09:13,260 their training. So a lot of the practices that 167 00:09:13,260 --> 00:09:16,180 we might hear about in the context of marathon running are 168 00:09:16,180 --> 00:09:18,140 particularly around blood doping. 169 00:09:18,780 --> 00:09:24,900 And so that's increasing the red blood cells and the amount of 170 00:09:24,900 --> 00:09:28,900 hemoglobin in those red blood cells that carry oxygen around 171 00:09:28,900 --> 00:09:34,530 your body enabling you to. Perform at a a higher level. 172 00:09:35,330 --> 00:09:38,890 You're you'd both be more efficient when you were running, 173 00:09:38,890 --> 00:09:44,450 but also able to run faster. And ways that athletes might 174 00:09:44,810 --> 00:09:51,770 blood dope would be either taking and rest through poetic, 175 00:09:51,770 --> 00:09:56,650 stimulating agents. And I know that sounds quite. 176 00:09:57,270 --> 00:09:59,870 A lot of complicated words there, but that just basically 177 00:09:59,870 --> 00:10:03,710 means stimulating your body to produce more red blood cells. 178 00:10:05,150 --> 00:10:09,030 And the most famous erythropoietic stimulate 179 00:10:09,550 --> 00:10:14,710 stimulating agent that we know of is erythropoietin or EPO. 180 00:10:15,350 --> 00:10:22,140 So injecting EPO can. Stimulate your body to produce 181 00:10:22,660 --> 00:10:28,460 these red blood cells in a more accelerated time time frame. 182 00:10:29,260 --> 00:10:34,980 The other way that you could increase the number of red blood 183 00:10:34,980 --> 00:10:41,100 cells you have is to infuse a bag of blood, and that could 184 00:10:41,100 --> 00:10:46,300 either be from your own body that you'd taken out several. 185 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,560 Months earlier, weeks or months earlier or by using somebody 186 00:10:50,560 --> 00:10:52,520 else's blood that they've donated to you. 187 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:58,000 So all of those practices, the erythropoietic stimulating 188 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:03,520 agents or the infusions of blood, they are all prohibited 189 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,080 in in sport and considered doping. 190 00:11:06,680 --> 00:11:11,800 Now, there's some other substances that can that can 191 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:16,260 improve performance that aren't. You know, don't fall under that 192 00:11:16,260 --> 00:11:19,980 blood doping umbrella and they are all listed on the water 193 00:11:19,980 --> 00:11:23,020 prohibited list. But these might be things that 194 00:11:23,380 --> 00:11:28,660 you know, stimulate your body to produce energy or to help with 195 00:11:28,660 --> 00:11:35,180 recovery or to help with with general oxygen intake. 196 00:11:35,420 --> 00:11:39,020 In terms of, you know, some asthma medications, if you 197 00:11:39,020 --> 00:11:41,140 didn't have asthma, like might, might help to. 198 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,440 In enhanced performance. So there's a there's a lot of 199 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,680 different ways that unfortunately, if somebody did 200 00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:52,400 want to dope in marathon running, they have quite a a 201 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:57,520 gamut of options to choose from. Yeah, it sounds like it. 202 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:01,560 It doesn't sound so black and white as if someone were to just 203 00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:04,680 take a pill, say. You take an illegal substance 204 00:12:04,680 --> 00:12:07,160 and you can simply just test for it. 205 00:12:07,550 --> 00:12:10,550 So for. Blood doping and somebody 206 00:12:10,910 --> 00:12:14,110 increasing their red blood cells and it being something that 207 00:12:14,110 --> 00:12:17,870 naturally could occur if they live at higher altitude, how do 208 00:12:17,870 --> 00:12:20,910 you guys test for that and then also what's? 209 00:12:20,910 --> 00:12:24,830 Kind of the timeline for testing for something like that for 210 00:12:24,830 --> 00:12:27,230 American Marathon events like do they have? 211 00:12:27,230 --> 00:12:30,590 To let you know when they're signing up and then you do 212 00:12:30,590 --> 00:12:32,750 random tests or how does that all work? 213 00:12:34,270 --> 00:12:38,570 Yeah, so. I guess to start with the first 214 00:12:38,570 --> 00:12:43,490 part of that question of how how we would detect blood doping per 215 00:12:43,490 --> 00:12:45,810 SE. There's I'm not sure if you've 216 00:12:45,810 --> 00:12:49,930 heard of the athletes biological passport or the ABP, but that's 217 00:12:49,930 --> 00:12:54,850 a way of indirectly detecting blood doping and what it 218 00:12:54,850 --> 00:12:58,930 involves is collecting a series of blood tests from an athlete 219 00:12:59,330 --> 00:13:02,850 over, you know, the length of their career. 220 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:10,360 And looking for changes in in their patterns because we're our 221 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:14,600 bodies are you know pretty in tune and they like to stay in 222 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:18,400 this kind of homeostatic steady kind of state. 223 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:23,760 And so the ABP uses a mathematical model to predict 224 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,920 what the normal range would be for the athlete. 225 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:31,080 So it allows for upper, you know, fluctuations up or down in 226 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,100 certain parameters. As quite rightly you said that 227 00:13:34,100 --> 00:13:37,500 you know if you went to altitude and your body might naturally 228 00:13:37,500 --> 00:13:40,780 increase, so those are taken in into account. 229 00:13:40,780 --> 00:13:46,740 But if there's a sudden change up or down which creates known 230 00:13:46,740 --> 00:13:49,980 patterns that are associated with blood doping, this kind of 231 00:13:49,980 --> 00:13:53,940 raises a red flag. And you know, we will look into 232 00:13:53,940 --> 00:13:57,460 that and a a group of independent experts will look 233 00:13:57,460 --> 00:14:01,830 into that to see if there is. A normal explanation, perhaps 234 00:14:01,830 --> 00:14:05,750 there's a medical condition that could describe that, but if if 235 00:14:05,750 --> 00:14:08,990 there isn't, then the athlete will be approached to provide an 236 00:14:08,990 --> 00:14:13,630 explanation and following that explanation, if there's still 237 00:14:13,630 --> 00:14:20,310 not, you know, a reasonable scientific explanation for these 238 00:14:20,510 --> 00:14:24,350 changes, then athletes can actually be sanctioned. 239 00:14:24,390 --> 00:14:28,150 And worldwide, we're looking at about 200. 240 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:33,360 Athletes now that have been sanctioned using the ABP model, 241 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:39,120 which is based on, you know, this indirect detection of blood 242 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,720 doping. So for our for our top American 243 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:47,280 athletes, they'd be part of Usada's registered testing pool 244 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:53,040 and that will require them to provide whereabouts to USADA so 245 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,800 that we can test them out of competition and. 246 00:14:57,250 --> 00:15:00,850 We will start to build up this AVP profile which which 247 00:15:00,930 --> 00:15:05,290 documents their normal at some of these major marathons. 248 00:15:05,290 --> 00:15:09,650 They they may also be selected for pre competition testing 249 00:15:09,650 --> 00:15:13,290 which is you know usually occurred in usually occurs in 250 00:15:13,290 --> 00:15:18,370 the two to three days before the race and they will have their 251 00:15:18,370 --> 00:15:21,330 blood collected and that will be added to their profile and. 252 00:15:22,070 --> 00:15:25,470 You know, for the vast majority of athletes, this profile is 253 00:15:25,470 --> 00:15:29,590 just ticking away just documenting their normal state. 254 00:15:30,190 --> 00:15:33,750 In addition, there will be in competition testing, but that's 255 00:15:33,750 --> 00:15:36,150 usually in the form of a urine sample. 256 00:15:36,550 --> 00:15:40,310 And in those tests, that's when we're really looking for those 257 00:15:40,310 --> 00:15:46,230 specific substances like the EP OS or Testosterones or steroids 258 00:15:46,230 --> 00:15:52,770 or those kinds of things. 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Thanks for explaining that. 267 00:16:21,750 --> 00:16:25,390 And let me just backtrack a little bit, because I'm thinking 268 00:16:25,390 --> 00:16:28,590 about a competition that will occur in the United States, say 269 00:16:28,590 --> 00:16:32,070 something like the Chicago Marathon or even an event in 270 00:16:32,070 --> 00:16:34,750 Germany, the Berlin Marathon, where you have athletes coming 271 00:16:34,750 --> 00:16:38,710 from other countries who is in. Charge of testing them? 272 00:16:38,710 --> 00:16:42,510 Is it the specific countries? That's all. 273 00:16:42,510 --> 00:16:45,470 That's a good question. And this is you know gets gets 274 00:16:45,470 --> 00:16:48,350 very complicated very quickly these. 275 00:16:48,740 --> 00:16:53,700 These major marathons are all part of the the World Athletics 276 00:16:54,740 --> 00:16:57,180 umbrella. I guess that's the, you know, 277 00:16:57,180 --> 00:17:02,900 the International Federation that's responsible for athletics 278 00:17:02,900 --> 00:17:07,579 and road running. And so, ultimately, at those big 279 00:17:07,579 --> 00:17:13,079 events, World Athletics has the. Jurisdiction and they are 280 00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:18,599 responsible for managing any results that come out of of 281 00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:21,960 those events. But in terms of who collects 282 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:28,680 them, the World Athletics will work with the major marathon or 283 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:35,480 the race organizer to select someone to to well, to select a 284 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:39,320 third party to collect the samples on site. 285 00:17:40,330 --> 00:17:45,290 So for the the major marathons in the US, USADA is usually the 286 00:17:45,290 --> 00:17:48,330 sample collection authority. So we were just at the Chicago 287 00:17:48,330 --> 00:17:51,650 Marathon, we were at Boston earlier in the year and we'll be 288 00:17:51,650 --> 00:17:57,530 in in New York coming up. And so we are contracted to to 289 00:17:57,530 --> 00:18:03,530 provide a gold standard service. So we we are responsible for 290 00:18:03,530 --> 00:18:06,050 ensuring that the samples are collected. 291 00:18:06,510 --> 00:18:12,350 You know to the high standards with integrity and in accordance 292 00:18:12,350 --> 00:18:16,350 with the World Anti Doping Code and the rules associated with 293 00:18:16,350 --> 00:18:21,270 that and then we will ship the samples to a wider accredited 294 00:18:21,390 --> 00:18:23,830 laboratory. We have two in the US that we 295 00:18:23,830 --> 00:18:28,070 can choose from but then the results of those are provided 296 00:18:28,070 --> 00:18:33,750 back to World Athletics who have their own anti doping. 297 00:18:34,410 --> 00:18:37,090 Unit, Independent Anti Doping Unit called the Athletics 298 00:18:37,090 --> 00:18:40,810 Integrity Unit and they will handle the results of that. 299 00:18:40,810 --> 00:18:43,850 So it can be a little bit confusing for athletes, 300 00:18:43,850 --> 00:18:48,370 particularly the US athletes who who might be part of our 301 00:18:48,370 --> 00:18:51,170 registered testing pool. They might see the doping 302 00:18:51,170 --> 00:18:55,650 control officer one day at their house and they are there 303 00:18:55,650 --> 00:18:58,410 collecting on behalf of USADA and then they'll all see them 304 00:18:58,410 --> 00:19:01,240 at. At the marathon, and now they're 305 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,320 collecting on behalf of World Athletics. 306 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:07,840 OK, yeah, that does get quite complicated. 307 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:12,200 And then it's going to be easier to test athletes in the United 308 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:13,560 States. But what if it comes to 309 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:17,360 countries that are third world countries where it's difficult 310 00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:19,880 to navigate? What happens if an athlete 311 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,600 misses a check in and is not there? 312 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:25,920 Is there any repercussions for that? 313 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,120 Or does it just mean, OK, you missed one, he's just going to 314 00:19:28,120 --> 00:19:33,370 get a new appointment? So I guess just to be clear 315 00:19:33,370 --> 00:19:39,490 there's no no appointments I guess with with the out of 316 00:19:39,490 --> 00:19:42,290 competition testing. So a key part of that is that 317 00:19:42,290 --> 00:19:48,210 they're they're no no notice tests so the the doping control 318 00:19:48,210 --> 00:19:51,410 officer will will turn up unannounced and the athlete 319 00:19:51,410 --> 00:19:55,730 doesn't know that they're going to be tested but usually in 320 00:19:55,730 --> 00:19:58,570 these third world countries they they do have. 321 00:19:59,100 --> 00:20:02,260 They will often have a national anti doping agency but they will 322 00:20:02,260 --> 00:20:06,940 have limited resources. So they're really looking to to 323 00:20:06,940 --> 00:20:11,180 World Athletics and the athletics integrity unit to go 324 00:20:11,180 --> 00:20:13,500 out there and and test on their behalf. 325 00:20:13,500 --> 00:20:17,300 So I think, you know, not wanting to speak on behalf of 326 00:20:17,300 --> 00:20:22,100 the AIU, but they do do a lot of testing in East Africa, you 327 00:20:22,100 --> 00:20:24,580 know, to help out the situation over there. 328 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:29,200 And they and they would follow the same rules as the rest of 329 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,680 the world. So if an athlete is part of the 330 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:36,560 registered testing pool and then they're required to provide 331 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:41,240 whereabouts if they're not where they say they are, then the AIU 332 00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:47,160 can will investigate and decide whether there is a consequence 333 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:51,760 of missing that test. And and if you if you miss three 334 00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:55,760 tests in a 12A rolling 12 month period, then you can be 335 00:20:55,760 --> 00:21:00,280 sanctioned and have to miss out on future competitions for a 336 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,800 period of time. OK, perfect. 337 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,640 Thank you for explaining that. And my next question I guess to 338 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:11,160 you is when you know people, athletes and experts both talk 339 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,960 about some sort of grey zone which means? 340 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:18,280 I guess there are. Practices that might not be. 341 00:21:18,330 --> 00:21:21,210 Be considered doping or are not? As explicitly. 342 00:21:21,610 --> 00:21:22,290 Could you? Maybe. 343 00:21:22,530 --> 00:21:25,250 Talk. About that a little bit, yeah. 344 00:21:25,250 --> 00:21:30,050 So I'm not sure if I've fully explained yet, but there's the 345 00:21:30,050 --> 00:21:34,730 World Anti Doping Agency WADA published every year a 346 00:21:34,930 --> 00:21:39,410 prohibited list and that lists out all the substances and 347 00:21:39,410 --> 00:21:44,780 methods that are prohibited in sport and so everybody who 348 00:21:44,780 --> 00:21:47,300 signed up to the World Anti Doping Code. 349 00:21:47,300 --> 00:21:52,700 So that's all the Olympic and Paralympic federations and all 350 00:21:52,700 --> 00:21:56,620 the national anti doping organisations, all the athletes 351 00:21:56,620 --> 00:22:01,860 that are part of those jurisdictions are all subject to 352 00:22:01,860 --> 00:22:03,780 that list. So if it's on the list, it's 353 00:22:03,780 --> 00:22:05,220 prohibited and you shouldn't take it. 354 00:22:06,620 --> 00:22:10,900 I guess where the grey zone may come into play is that you know, 355 00:22:10,900 --> 00:22:16,380 science is always making advances and so there are 356 00:22:16,620 --> 00:22:21,060 substances that may not yet be listed because they might be 357 00:22:21,060 --> 00:22:28,340 quite new and we we don't know the full extent of their power, 358 00:22:28,340 --> 00:22:31,740 I guess in sport. And so they might not be on on 359 00:22:31,740 --> 00:22:37,380 the on the list explicitly and some athletes might be 360 00:22:37,380 --> 00:22:42,340 experimenting with their those substances or methods and and 361 00:22:42,340 --> 00:22:47,300 technically if it's not on the prohibited list then they're not 362 00:22:47,300 --> 00:22:50,460 doing anything wrong. But is it really in the spirit 363 00:22:50,460 --> 00:22:55,060 of sport to be using such substances, particularly if two 364 00:22:55,060 --> 00:22:58,500 years down the track the substance then becomes on the 365 00:22:58,500 --> 00:23:01,660 prohibited list. So I guess that's one area where 366 00:23:01,660 --> 00:23:04,700 people might be talking about the grey zone and then another 367 00:23:04,700 --> 00:23:10,780 one might be, you know, pushing the boundaries on some of the 368 00:23:10,780 --> 00:23:16,080 rules and manipulating them, I guess to suit your situation. 369 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:21,760 So in sport there's a process known as a therapeutic use 370 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:27,080 exemption and that allows an athlete to take a normally 371 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,800 prohibited substance to treat a medical condition. 372 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:36,200 And there's a a pretty strict process for applying for a Tue 373 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,320 and you know have to provide medical justifications and 374 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,280 really make sure that the athlete legitimately needs that 375 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,240 medication. But of course if they do, we 376 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,920 don't want to disadvantage them. But there might be some athletes 377 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:57,000 that are trying to gain the situation for some of those in 378 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,920 terms of a Tue and and trying to use something that they might 379 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:05,720 not, you know, 100% need from a medical standpoint. 380 00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:11,500 But you know, on the whole those are those athletes are few, a 381 00:24:11,500 --> 00:24:14,780 few and far between, and the TUI process is quite rigorous that 382 00:24:15,300 --> 00:24:19,620 often they won't be granted ATUE if it it can't be shown that 383 00:24:19,660 --> 00:24:23,540 they actually really need one. OK, perfect. 384 00:24:23,540 --> 00:24:25,300 Thank you for spelling that out for us. 385 00:24:25,300 --> 00:24:28,700 And obviously, this list is inclusive for amateur runners. 386 00:24:29,100 --> 00:24:30,860 As well as elites. Is that right? 387 00:24:32,180 --> 00:24:35,700 Yes. So a lot of the the races, 388 00:24:35,940 --> 00:24:39,500 whether they're sanctioned by World Athletics or in the US, if 389 00:24:39,500 --> 00:24:43,900 they're sanctioned by USA Track and Field, or even a lot of 390 00:24:43,900 --> 00:24:48,260 these new, you know, trail and mountain running events, they 391 00:24:48,260 --> 00:24:53,900 will often list on the website and as part of the entry process 392 00:24:53,900 --> 00:25:00,630 that when you sign up you are agreeing to abide by the World 393 00:25:00,630 --> 00:25:03,150 Anti Doping Rules and the prohibited List. 394 00:25:03,150 --> 00:25:07,070 And you know a lot of them will go as far as saying that you may 395 00:25:07,070 --> 00:25:12,910 be subject to testing as well. And so by by entering, you are 396 00:25:12,910 --> 00:25:15,550 agreeing to abide by those rules. 397 00:25:16,470 --> 00:25:17,310 OK. Perfect. 398 00:25:17,830 --> 00:25:18,390 All right. Thank. 399 00:25:18,390 --> 00:25:20,950 You so much for explaining all this to us. 400 00:25:20,950 --> 00:25:24,310 And your time and really diving deep into that, we appreciate 401 00:25:24,310 --> 00:25:26,150 it. No worries. 402 00:25:26,150 --> 00:25:32,150 I hope it was helpful. Thank you Doctor Lewis, and 403 00:25:32,230 --> 00:25:36,030 thank you to the US ADA for being available for this 404 00:25:36,030 --> 00:25:39,100 interview. And for you listeners, I hope 405 00:25:39,100 --> 00:25:42,100 that we clarified a lot of questions that you had or maybe, 406 00:25:42,300 --> 00:25:44,060 you know, put some more questions in your head and now 407 00:25:44,060 --> 00:25:46,580 you have some answers. And another few things that came 408 00:25:46,580 --> 00:25:49,420 up off record once we had already stopped recording was 409 00:25:49,420 --> 00:25:52,100 that urine samples can be retained 10 years. 410 00:25:52,300 --> 00:25:56,300 And that is basically why a lot of these marathoners get popped 411 00:25:56,460 --> 00:25:59,580 afterwards, a few years afterwards, because there's so 412 00:25:59,580 --> 00:26:03,820 much new stuff out all the time. And while they can't go retro on 413 00:26:03,820 --> 00:26:06,980 new things that are banned, they can go back on. 414 00:26:07,180 --> 00:26:10,140 Stuff that they just find out with new testings, as long as 415 00:26:10,140 --> 00:26:13,140 the substance was prohibited at the time, Yeah. 416 00:26:13,140 --> 00:26:15,460 So what you're trying to say is for substances, they weren't 417 00:26:15,460 --> 00:26:18,580 illegal at the time that they did their raise they don't get 418 00:26:18,580 --> 00:26:21,340 in trouble for. But for substances, they were 419 00:26:21,340 --> 00:26:22,860 illegal. They just didn't know how to 420 00:26:22,860 --> 00:26:25,500 accurately test for it. But they can now test for it. 421 00:26:25,500 --> 00:26:28,780 They do get in trouble for. Thank you Ryan, my native 422 00:26:28,780 --> 00:26:31,740 English speaker, for helping me with this interpretation. 423 00:26:31,780 --> 00:26:33,420 So that's exactly what I'm trying to say. 424 00:26:33,820 --> 00:26:38,060 And we're going to post a link on our website post as well as 425 00:26:38,060 --> 00:26:43,740 in our podcast notes to the list of prohibited items for 2024, as 426 00:26:43,740 --> 00:26:46,700 well as a globalist of ineligible people. 427 00:26:47,060 --> 00:26:49,780 From the Athletics integrity Unit, which is really kind of 428 00:26:49,780 --> 00:26:51,700 interesting because you can see they're kind of arranged by 429 00:26:51,700 --> 00:26:55,660 country and what person is banned for how long, and it kind 430 00:26:55,660 --> 00:26:59,140 of also gives you a concept of how hard these agencies work 431 00:26:59,140 --> 00:27:02,420 behind the scenes. And we don't really know about 432 00:27:02,420 --> 00:27:05,380 that because unless it's one of the top runners, we likely won't 433 00:27:05,380 --> 00:27:08,780 hear about it in the news. Yeah, given the money that's 434 00:27:08,780 --> 00:27:12,380 involved in sports, I no doubtedly understand how 435 00:27:12,380 --> 00:27:16,020 difficult their job really is, because money always brings the 436 00:27:16,020 --> 00:27:20,540 ability for people to elude like testing and, you know, figuring 437 00:27:20,540 --> 00:27:22,900 out new ways to make new substances or whatever. 438 00:27:23,140 --> 00:27:26,060 So it's always like I like I said before, it's like a game 439 00:27:26,060 --> 00:27:28,650 back and forth. It's almost like drugs coming 440 00:27:28,650 --> 00:27:30,690 from other countries too. It's, you know, there's so much 441 00:27:30,690 --> 00:27:34,450 money in drugs that it makes it really hard to to stop it. 442 00:27:34,810 --> 00:27:36,810 Exactly so. So that's that. 443 00:27:37,490 --> 00:27:40,250 So that wraps up the episode on anti doping. 444 00:27:40,250 --> 00:27:41,410 Let us know what you think about it. 445 00:27:41,410 --> 00:27:45,090 Follow us on Instagram because we always post on Instagram and 446 00:27:45,090 --> 00:27:46,650 we love interacting with you guys. 447 00:27:46,970 --> 00:27:49,930 Stay tuned for next week's podcast episode. 448 00:27:50,130 --> 00:27:52,890 We are putting together a Everything You Need to Know 449 00:27:52,890 --> 00:27:55,010 about the New York Marathon, kind of like a. 450 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,560 Hacks episode. Obviously this will be my first 451 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,640 New York Marathon, but as we've told you before, I'm not going 452 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,680 to be the brains behind all of these answers to the questions. 453 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,680 We're bringing you on a dietitian that tells us how to 454 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,160 best navigate this course using fuelling. 455 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:16,200 And also we have Kristen Smith, who is a running coach on and 456 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,120 she has a lot of information. She's a native New Yorker and 457 00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:22,630 she talks about the course. And what to expect? 458 00:28:22,990 --> 00:28:25,390 And we're going to answer some questions about how to just 459 00:28:25,390 --> 00:28:28,590 navigate that whole race weekend, so stay tuned for that. 460 00:28:28,590 --> 00:28:30,910 Sounds fun, and it'll get you excited for your race. 461 00:28:31,270 --> 00:28:33,510 Absolutely. Let us know if you're coming to 462 00:28:33,510 --> 00:28:36,670 New York and with that have a good week of running. 463 00:28:41,540 --> 00:28:44,540 Thanks for tuning in for more. Information Ant marathon 464 00:28:44,540 --> 00:28:47,100 running. Please head to WWW. 465 00:28:47,100 --> 00:28:51,340 Dot marathonrunningpodcast.com. And we'll be back next week.