1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,200 Hi, I'm Bryn Griffiths, your Labour Left podcast host, and 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,440 today I'm delighted to welcome a leading figure of the British 3 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:08,600 left, John McDonnell, to the show. 4 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:11,600 John's a final internationalist standing with the people of 5 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:16,760 Iran, Iraq, Iran, Iraq, Ukraine, Gaza, to name but a few. 6 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,240 He first came to prominence as the Greater London Council's 7 00:00:20,240 --> 00:00:24,360 finance chair during the 1980s raid capping battle, and more 8 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:27,080 recently he was Jeremy Corbyn's shadow chancellor. 9 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:34,200 But perhaps his finest hour was back in 2024 when Andrew Fisher, 10 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:39,800 his former staffer, added him to the Labour Left podcast class 11 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,920 Hero Halls of Fame. John, you're an excellent guest 12 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:44,440 for the Labour Conference edition. 13 00:00:44,480 --> 00:00:45,800 How you doing? Thanks. 14 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:48,480 Thanks for inviting me on. Thank you very much. 15 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:51,360 Thank you to Andrew Fisher. That's quite flattering for 16 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:53,360 Andrew. Yeah, you're up there with the 17 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,040 greats. James Collin, Fidel Castro, 18 00:00:56,040 --> 00:01:00,720 Thomas Paine, Fred Hampton, Tony Benn, Francesca Albanese. 19 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:03,640 Well, I don't come up to the ankles of any of them anyway. 20 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,720 Well, you seem to have made a big impact on your old stuff of 21 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:08,720 Andrew. I imagine the readers are 22 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,080 thinking, sorry, the listeners are thinking, well, John, what's 23 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,040 his status? Any news on your whip removal? 24 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,080 Any indication of when we might learn more? 25 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:18,920 What's happening? Nothing. 26 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,280 I've still, I've still without the whip. 27 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:26,480 The new chief whip has just recently been appointed, Johnny 28 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,320 Reynolds, who used to be in my treasury team, if you recall. 29 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:35,880 So I dropped him a line and I said, look, I don't want to 30 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:38,880 'cause you a tricky problem in your first week, but I think we 31 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:40,320 should have a discussion about the whip. 32 00:01:40,320 --> 00:01:43,680 And I said, actually, it's not, it's not just about me, it's 33 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,040 about the others who've lost the whip as well. 34 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,200 And I said, I think I'm more concerned about them that we 35 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:54,120 resolved this and that we're able to move on Johnny to give 36 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,000 him his due route back and say, yes, let's try and resolve this. 37 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,200 So I've, I've dropped him a note saying we'd better all meet up 38 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:04,120 and see if we can find some accommodation and move forward. 39 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:09,720 I, you know, my view on all of this, that the, the reason the 40 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:13,360 whip is there is just to smooth the business of the Commons, to 41 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,640 make sure people are turning up and make sure people know what 42 00:02:16,640 --> 00:02:20,720 the party line is. But it's never in the past. 43 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,680 Certainly it wasn't under Tony Blair or Gordon Brown or Ed 44 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,000 Miliband. It was never used with as a 45 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,400 Brett, you know, that you'd lose the whip or something like this, 46 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:32,360 I thought. I thought we'd just clear that 47 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:34,160 up at the start. But, well, we'll see. 48 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,720 We'll see how it goes. Yeah, good luck, John. 49 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:38,840 I think that there's there's many of us in the labour 50 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:40,960 movement that are with you. You know, let's have a look at 51 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,440 your politics. What makes the man behind John 52 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:46,040 McDonnell? And I love listening to your 53 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:51,000 podcast and people's history. And I wonder whether that tells 54 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:55,400 us something about history from below approach and and whether 55 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,320 that tells gives us a clue about where you're coming from 56 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:00,800 politically. The reason I did that series of 57 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,520 podcasts because I was worried about the lack of political 58 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:07,000 education that was taking place within the Labour Party in 59 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,040 particular, but more broadly too. 60 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,640 And I wanted people to understand the long history that 61 00:03:13,640 --> 00:03:17,320 there is of, well, people standing up for their rights in 62 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,480 this country, but also the long history of revolt and revolution 63 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,040 in this country too. Well in advance of some other 64 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,160 European countries actually. So I went right back to the 65 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,800 People's Revolt and, and then went through the Civil War 66 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,240 period and Chartists, etcetera, you, you name it. 67 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:34,440 And I just got historians together. 68 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,280 But the lesson for me, and I suppose it, it mirrors my own 69 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:41,680 political development. I'm very much a grassroots 70 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:43,600 person. I'm very much a grassroots 71 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:47,280 politician. I never, I never had any 72 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,440 ambition to become an MP or anything like that. 73 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:55,680 Like most of us, I sort of got involved in, in local issues, 74 00:03:56,360 --> 00:04:00,160 talking to local people, discussing different ideas about 75 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:02,240 how we want to change our local community. 76 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:06,360 Then that led you on to how we want to change our, our society, 77 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,360 our country. That leads you on to how you 78 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,800 want to change the world. And it's like that sort of 79 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,920 evolution from the grassroots politics that, that that I've 80 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:16,079 developed. And that's why I wanted to 81 00:04:16,079 --> 00:04:20,640 demonstrate in that, that history series of histories that 82 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:24,240 actually individuals coming together, I mean, immensely 83 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,560 powerful and actually can change the world. 84 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,000 So yeah, that's the nature of my politics and how it's evolved, 85 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:31,880 definitely. Looking back in history again, 86 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:36,000 what about Marx? Because I saw in 2018 you you 87 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,840 went to the Marx Memorial Library and spoke at the big 88 00:04:38,840 --> 00:04:42,160 man's 200th anniversary of his birthday. 89 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,120 What does Marx bring to your political practice? 90 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:49,240 What happened with me is as I got involved political activity 91 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,600 in my constituency in Hayes, obviously you naturally have a 92 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,200 group of people around you, you discuss ideas. 93 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,920 And one of the things that we did, literally it was in the in 94 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:06,040 the kitchen of a post friend of mine and council house kitchen. 95 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,080 There was a dozen of us local activists. 96 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,280 We just read the Communist manifesto together, you know, a 97 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:17,160 small booklet, but it was an explanation of the history of 98 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,360 class struggle and and importantly, it was an 99 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,760 explanation of the development of capitalism. 100 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:28,320 So I suppose Mark, just reading that Communist Manifesto, I know 101 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:32,080 that sounds rather relatively sort of a naive, but actually it 102 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:38,080 it was mind changing because what it did is it developed the 103 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:42,440 ideas about this is how our economic system operates under 104 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:46,240 the capitalist system. This is the history of struggles 105 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,520 to combat the iniquities of, of capitalism and the oppression 106 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:53,000 and exploitation it brings about. 107 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:58,160 And here's how you can develop your ideas into, well, socialist 108 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,320 practice. And it's a short little booklet. 109 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,560 But then it LED you onto other works of Marx itself and the 110 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,480 issue around Marx. And this came out of the banking 111 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:13,840 crisis, you know, in, in, in 2008, Marx is the, the best 112 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:18,040 analyst of how capitalism works. And the reason I mentioned the 113 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:23,280 banking crisis because when the banking crisis occurred, there 114 00:06:23,280 --> 00:06:27,600 was a revival of an interest in Marx because of his thorough 115 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:29,840 understanding of the mechanisms of capitalism. 116 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:31,920 Can't he have an interest in Marx? 117 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,280 Yes, he did well. For people that don't know, he's 118 00:06:35,280 --> 00:06:37,520 the former governor of the Bank of England. 119 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:40,800 Is Mark Carney, but when I was shadow chancellor, I would meet 120 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,800 Mark Carney as the governor Bank of England and we'd meet about 121 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,120 once a month and we'd have a discussion about the current 122 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,880 situation in the economy, what the Bank was doing, what its 123 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,160 aims were and the role that was playing. 124 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,640 He's now a leader in Canada, but he's extremely well read read 125 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:56,360 Marks as well. So that we there was a 126 00:06:56,840 --> 00:07:00,920 interesting enough, a few a few ideas thrown into the into the 127 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,840 discussions about analysis of capitalism as it was interesting 128 00:07:04,840 --> 00:07:08,600 enough where it LED. Mark Carney was an interest in 129 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:15,160 the environment and the impact of how our economic system was 130 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,520 affecting the the environment overall. 131 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:21,320 And what he was trying to do was to place the environment on the 132 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,880 agenda, particularly in the discussions within the City of 133 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:28,480 London, how our natural resources were limited and being 134 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,040 destroyed as a result of the way our economic system was 135 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:32,840 operating. I found that really interesting 136 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:34,080 as the Governor of the Bank of England. 137 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,000 This is an anecdote but on the day of the general election, 138 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:41,240 2019, Mark phoned me at lunchtime and he said I just 139 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,960 want to assure you that whatever the outcome of the general 140 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,720 election, if you are elected and the Bank of England will stand 141 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,680 behind you because there was all sorts of rumours that there'd be 142 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:53,240 a run on the pound and that sort of thing. 143 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,560 Probably the most influential Marxist for me is Antonio 144 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:58,360 Gramsci. And I couldn't help but note 145 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:02,400 that Fergal Kinney, who's the Tribune culture editor, 146 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,280 described you as the Gramscian backbencher, that that's a very 147 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:08,680 grand title. Are you happy with that? 148 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:10,840 Well, remember, Gramsci was published. 149 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,080 His works were published quite late in this country, so they 150 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,880 became certainly for my generation. 151 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,680 I think you know the the generation of New Left thinkers, 152 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:23,560 the New Left Review and then the publication of Gramsci's prison 153 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,320 notebooks were important because at that stage the left was 154 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:31,600 looking for what route they could develop under late 155 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:36,080 capitalism to develop a, well, a socialist society. 156 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:40,400 The discussions were moving on from revolutionary socialism in 157 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:44,320 terms of what Gramsci called war of manoeuvre, you know, charging 158 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,600 up against the Winter Palace and all this sort of thing, sort of 159 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,440 Bolshevik attempts at physical revolution. 160 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,400 And it was more than what Gramsci was developing for the 161 00:08:53,680 --> 00:08:57,680 late stage of capitalism. Was this war of, of this 162 00:08:57,680 --> 00:09:00,120 development of position really or a position? 163 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:05,840 So in other words, sort of how you would develop a an economic 164 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,440 analysis and political analysis society that was held to be 165 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,400 completely rational and reasonable by the majority of 166 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,240 working class people. That would then enable you to 167 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:18,840 develop a political practice that would enable a socialist 168 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,840 government to be elected, but more importantly, A socialist 169 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,960 movement to be developed that then could dramatically 170 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,040 transform the economy and society. 171 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:32,520 So in some ways Gramsci's, the discussions around Gramsci for 172 00:09:32,560 --> 00:09:35,720 individuals like me who are working within the Labour Party 173 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,080 in particular. But this was how you can 174 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:42,080 actually develop a for a revolutionary practice that 175 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:47,320 actually could transform society, but do it in a way that 176 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:51,320 reflected the structure, the political structures that we 177 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,040 had, and also the balance of economic power within late 178 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,200 capitalism itself. I think Gramsci's work sort of 179 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,400 reinvigorated a lot of the discussions and debates that we 180 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,640 were having, and it did relate back to what Tony Benn was 181 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,160 doing, you know, which was developing socialist practice 182 00:10:07,560 --> 00:10:11,200 based upon also the history of social socialism within our 183 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,600 country and drawing upon the history of revolutionary 184 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,960 practice in our country. Individual struggles were about 185 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:23,120 incremental achievement of democratic rights that then 186 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:27,240 developed into the incremental achievement of economic 187 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,960 influence and power. The other person at the time as 188 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:34,360 well, who was trying to give advice and assistance in how to 189 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,920 develop political practice from a socialist perspective within 190 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,320 late capitalism was Mandel, of course. 191 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,120 Ernest Mandel, of course, but also Ralph Miller. 192 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,120 He had a thing or two to say about capitalist crisis, didn't 193 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:46,880 he? Exactly. 194 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:51,040 And if you look at his works, his development of concept of 195 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:55,760 late capitalism and the crisis ridden nature of capitalism, if 196 00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:00,280 you look at those works, they educated us into just how 197 00:11:00,680 --> 00:11:03,600 opportunities would arise for socialists to convince people of 198 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,760 the need for change and what the potential for change was. 199 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:11,720 What Mandel and others were trying to explain to people was 200 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,760 crises were inherent within capitalism itself. 201 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,920 What Gramsci was trying to do is give us the opportunity of a 202 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:22,640 different type of politics which would be ready to deal, explain 203 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,400 those crises, and then give us a form of political practice that 204 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,920 would enable us then to, within that crisis, to develop on 205 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:34,600 socialist practice within a democratic system of electing of 206 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:36,520 a government and then transforming society. 207 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:41,720 Is John McDonald preparing for a a March through the institutions 208 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,520 of civil society in a Gramscian sense, if you'd become 209 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:47,160 chancellor? Yeah, exactly that. 210 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:52,320 Every time on the left, I would say to people, the left has to 211 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:54,280 be ready to go into power tomorrow. 212 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:58,320 You have to understand how the system works, you have to know 213 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,800 what your objectives are and you have to have the an 214 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,640 understanding of the practices that you need to put in place to 215 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,920 achieve those objectives. And that means looking at the 216 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:12,520 institutions of capitalism and the institutions of the state. 217 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,720 Miliband I think was incredibly influential on many of us about 218 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,920 his analysis of the state. I disagreed with him is about 219 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,920 his views about the Labour Party and its opportunity. 220 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,400 I think actually changed in his last book anyway. 221 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:33,040 But for me it was trying to get a thorough understanding of just 222 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,600 how you can move forward, how you can develop your ideas into 223 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,320 practice. And that's why you've mentioned 224 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:43,440 my position on the GLC. We developed for the GLC, a 225 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:48,200 number of us, the idea of in and against the state, very Graham 226 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,200 Skin. It was a group that came 227 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,880 together and I thought it was fundamentally important for the 228 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,880 time it was in. And it basically was saying this 229 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,960 state is a set of institutions, but it's also a relationship. 230 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,480 So the theory that we were developing was that go within 231 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:08,280 those institutions and change the relationship. 232 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:10,760 And the relationship of the state is 1 of dominance. 233 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,320 You know, if you you can see it in every aspect of its work. 234 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:18,640 So we were encouraging people go within the state either as a 235 00:13:18,680 --> 00:13:22,600 job, an official or go in elected office. 236 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,560 And then when you get in there, change it, change the 237 00:13:26,560 --> 00:13:29,360 relationship from dominance into one of democratic, powerful 238 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:31,800 working class people. And that was the theory behind 239 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:36,040 the GLC. Get elected to the GLC or be 240 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,400 appointed to an into an official role. 241 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,600 And then literally, and this is what we did at the GLC, we just 242 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,240 went the door of the county hall and said, come in, I'm in with 243 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,200 your ideas. Here's that. 244 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,760 We'll give you the resources and the power to implement those 245 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:54,280 ideas, and it's all about transfer of power to working 246 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:56,560 class people in every aspect we possibly could. 247 00:13:57,560 --> 00:14:01,680 And I think in many ways that was the development, the ideas 248 00:14:01,680 --> 00:14:04,680 of what we should be doing nationally if we got elected as 249 00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:07,480 a Labour government. But it demonstrated a form of 250 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,640 political practice that sort of prefigured the sort of society 251 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,960 we wanted to create. But what the GLC showed for me 252 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,240 was that the left is serious about power. 253 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:20,240 It's serious about opening up the institutions of the state 254 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,040 and bringing the people in, and we showed at the GLC that we can 255 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:27,360 do it in practice, and you and Ken were so instrumental in 256 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,280 showing that. I always used to say to our 257 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,480 Socialist Campaign Group colleagues, you know, you've got 258 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:36,320 to understand the system, you've got to be ready to go in there 259 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,360 into government. And you've also, when you go 260 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,040 into government, you've got to have in your back pocket your 261 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:45,000 manual about how the system operates and how you're going to 262 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:46,720 change it and what their first steps are. 263 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:49,520 I'm totally bureaucratic, but are you? 264 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,040 You have to do this. You're speaking to a former 265 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:54,120 bureaucrat, John. I was. 266 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,560 I was a senior official in local government until I retired a few 267 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,360 years ago. So the importance of having 268 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,840 people that understand how to make the institution actually 269 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,200 move and do what you want it to is not lost on me. 270 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,640 I can assure you. When I came across you, what I, 271 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,840 what I remember and what I still think about when I speak about 272 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,000 think about John McDonnell is the Irish struggle. 273 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,880 I want to know why to this day you're still active in the 274 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,920 labour movement for Irish unity. I was born in Liverpool for from 275 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,480 an Irish Catholic family. Basically my grandparents were 276 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,120 Irish, came across to Liverpool and so we're sort of very much a 277 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,560 traditional Irish Catholic background in that sense. 278 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:38,400 And you and a look on Ireland as part of my history and and 279 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,160 homeland. Interesting enough as you as I 280 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,440 you became a teenager in school, you were never really taught 281 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:47,600 about Irish history at all, or you. 282 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,360 Or if you were, it was from a very much a British colonialist 283 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,080 perspective basically. You might learn about Oliver 284 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:55,640 Cromwell. That was about it when I was. 285 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:57,480 Exactly. Yeah, well, my family from 286 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,120 Andrada, so we're not very keen on Oliver Cromwell even. 287 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,720 A better role in Britain when he'd sort of just a couple of 288 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,080 Parliament. Well, you know what Frank Dobson 289 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:08,880 said? He'd chair the Cromwell Society. 290 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,320 And Frank used to say, look, Cromwell was a bastard, but he 291 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,920 was our bastard. And I'd say to Frank, I don't 292 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:16,200 think the. Irish would agree with that. 293 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,120 That's. What I said to Frank, you might 294 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:19,480 have been yours, but it wasn't mine. 295 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:21,280 Coming from Toronto where we emancipated. 296 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,920 What happened was as I went into my sort of teenage years and 297 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,560 beyond, just got more interested in reading about Irish history. 298 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,720 And then as soon as you read about Irish history and you, you 299 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:35,680 really just see that form of oppression that took place over 300 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,120 the hundreds of years. But then actually you see the 301 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:43,400 mechanisms used in Ireland are used in through the development 302 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:47,280 of imperialism right the way across the globe by by the the 303 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,120 British states, but also by other countries as well. 304 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:51,840 So that's how I developed into it. 305 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,120 I became I've got also I was interested in Irish culture and 306 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:01,360 Irish reading, reading lots of Irish writers offensive that 307 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,119 lots of Irish writers would be classified in the libraries 308 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:08,400 under the English section. So a few, a few of us would use 309 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,760 a sticker, moved the books from George Bernard Shaw and others, 310 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,280 Oscar Wilde and we put us moving them out and put a sticker 311 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:19,880 underneath Irish section. Not English, just it was just 312 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:24,440 that cultural dominance, wasn't it really that took place at 313 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,400 that point in time. The Troubles were there and we 314 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,560 had, you know, we had the hunger strike, Bobby Sands dying. 315 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:36,760 And so I sort of got drawn into the Irish politics at the GLC. 316 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,040 What we tried to do, as you know, we tried to make sure we 317 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:44,440 had a whole range of equalities policies implemented. 318 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:48,240 And one of the issues we looked at as the diversity of London. 319 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,920 And so we had groups working in different communities and we set 320 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,760 up an Irish unit, an Irish team working within the Irish 321 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,960 community. And it was to develop and 322 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,120 support the Irish community in London, which were going through 323 00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:03,440 tough times at the time. There were still high levels of 324 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:05,600 discrimination against the Irish people. 325 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,240 If you remember, we had the Evening Standard running abuse 326 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:11,960 of adverts about the, the Irish, which is appalling. 327 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,800 And then of course that led us on to the discussions or the 328 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:16,920 Troubles. And the interest of the Irish 329 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:19,680 community in London at that point in time was how obviously 330 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,280 how can we secure peace because there was bombs going off in 331 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,480 London. And I, I was the first person to 332 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:30,520 put up a motion to the GRC Labour group that we should 333 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,840 start entering into talks with Sinn Fein, inviting Sinn Fein 334 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:38,080 councillors over just to talk about the situation of what was 335 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:42,040 happening in the North and then how we could help move things 336 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,800 forward. I put up a resolution that we 337 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:46,840 should be seeking to talk about peace. 338 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:49,720 And you can imagine what the reaction was. 339 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:54,680 Even standard run a campaign. We were abused by all and 340 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,280 sundry. How dare we talk to Sinn Fein? 341 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,480 I organized a tour of Sinn Fein councillors around the London 342 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,600 councils. I remember Danny Morrison in 343 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:07,720 that period had a fantastic article in London Labour 344 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:09,600 Briefing. Brilliant. 345 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,480 Give us Peace, that was that was the message that he wanted to 346 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:17,000 have a dialogue around. Yeah, Alex, Alex Maskey came 347 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,920 over and we toured around the London councils talking directly 348 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,920 to the to the council meetings about how we could secure peace. 349 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,560 And what happened to Alex is that he went back to Belfast and 350 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,880 was shot 4 times, incredible, but survived and eventually 351 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:36,200 became mayor in Belfast. So again, what happened was we 352 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,560 were trying to just engender an atmosphere where you could 353 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,840 actually understand how the Irish were feeling about their 354 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,320 treatment in London, but then how that led to a discussion 355 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,240 about the need for peace overall. 356 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,720 Interestingly enough, or even though the media condemned us 357 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,560 and even though the Labour Party nationally distanced themselves 358 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:59,920 from us, we now know that those talks which confined were going 359 00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:02,840 on behind the scenes under a Thatcher government. 360 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,720 Extraordinary period. Oh yeah, so and I've I've kept. 361 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,120 Can I just ask you a question about bring it back to to today 362 00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:14,200 on Ireland? When I heard Jeff Bell from your 363 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:19,040 campaign, the Labour Movement for Irish Unity campaign on the 364 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:24,480 show, he talked about one of the components of reconciliation is 365 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:29,120 the truth and telling the truth about what the British state did 366 00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:32,120 during that period. What's your view on that, John? 367 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:38,000 I, it's a bit like South Africa, you know, where they had that 368 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,040 truth Commission, where people were able to come and tell their 369 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:45,120 stories on all sides, on all parts of the community as well. 370 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,920 And I think that's fundamental because it helps us learn the 371 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,640 lessons of what went on, learn the lessons of history for the 372 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:54,360 future. And it does. 373 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,080 You can have breakthroughs when you establish the truth like 374 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,120 this. And and you know, what comes out 375 00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:03,160 of it is that no matter what side you're on, there were 376 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,960 shared experiences that you never want other people to go 377 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:08,720 through again. It's like that. 378 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,120 And in many ways it's the first step towards bringing the 379 00:21:12,120 --> 00:21:14,720 community together at the moment. 380 00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:17,880 You've mentioned the Labour for Irish unity. 381 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:23,880 At the moment I'm, I've been doing meetings at the TUC, We'll 382 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:25,720 have meetings at the Labour Party conference. 383 00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:31,160 We've just have discussions about how we can now prepare the 384 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:37,440 ground in, in our country in in England, Wales and Scotland for 385 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:43,760 enabling the next step in enabling the Irish people to 386 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:48,840 decide their own future. And the next step will be the 387 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:54,080 Pole with regard to the border. Now, some of the stuff that we 388 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,040 we're planning is how do we settle, bring the Irish 389 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,800 community, the diaspora in this country together to talk about 390 00:22:02,120 --> 00:22:05,400 what their views are and what their intentions are. 391 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,560 But then making sure that that broadens out to end a much wider 392 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,400 discussion of raising the levels of awareness in this country 393 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,960 about the developments in Ireland, because in Ireland 394 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:20,600 itself a dynamic is developing which is about Irish unity and 395 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,520 we need to reflect that here. Why do we need to reflect that 396 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:29,840 here is because Westminster, this UK Parliament will set the 397 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:35,240 terms about the decision on when that poll about the border 398 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,920 should be brought about. So the work we're doing at the 399 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,760 moment is to start raising the level of awareness in this 400 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,720 country about the debate that's happening in Ireland. 401 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,520 And then I hope under this Labour government, because it's 402 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:51,240 got such a large majority that under Kier Starmer or the the 403 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:55,160 Labour government that's in place now, they can then set the 404 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,160 terms, the criteria upon which the poll can go ahead. 405 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:03,080 And I actually do think the poll will reveal that there is a 406 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:07,240 sizeable majority now for United Ireland, recently achieved. 407 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,680 Jeff Bell, when he appeared on the show, asked all Labour 408 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,120 members at their constituency meetings where you've got a 409 00:23:14,120 --> 00:23:20,120 Labour MP, to ask them what is the route map to a poll taking 410 00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:23,640 place in Ireland so they can determine their own future. 411 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:28,200 Because I think Ireland drops off the agenda for many Labour 412 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,720 politicians and it's so important that the Good Friday 413 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,040 Agreement is implemented and an important contribution we can 414 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,680 make is to get every MP to think about that question. 415 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:44,640 What is the route map to a poll on the question of Irish unity? 416 00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:47,840 Because that was promised in the Good Friday Agreement if there 417 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,040 was an indication the Irish people want to do. 418 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,280 Jeff's exactly right, but there's a sense of urgency now. 419 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:59,360 A sense of urgency is this is that we're fearful that a Reform 420 00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:04,880 government could be elected. We've just seen that reform is 421 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:11,400 quite capable because of what it's been saying about the EHCR 422 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,480 quite, which is an element of Good Friday Agreement. 423 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,960 They're quite capable of tearing up that Good Friday Agreement. 424 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,600 So there's a sense of urgency that whilst we have this Labour 425 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,280 government such a sizeable majority over the next couple of 426 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:29,200 years, it could move this agenda over very quickly, quickly to 427 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:30,800 reflect what's happening in Ireland. 428 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:35,080 If we get a reform government we will go be going back decades 429 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:40,320 and that's dangerous. And the, the issue is that for 430 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,920 Labour MPs, they have to recognize that if awareness is 431 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,920 raised amongst the Irish diaspora, the Irish communities 432 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,880 within their constituencies, do you know what the population is 433 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,600 like in this country? There's a large Irish population 434 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,800 here. That would be if they're 435 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,480 motivated in such a way that could form the difference 436 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,000 between whether some Labour MPs get elected or not. 437 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,480 And So what we're trying to say to Labour MPs that wake up to 438 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,640 the fact that the Irish within your constituency have an 439 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,960 interest here, they will express their that interest and they 440 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:15,200 will expect you to listen to them and also come to a view 441 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,360 that they think is the right one, which is about supporting 442 00:25:18,360 --> 00:25:20,520 Irish unity. So there's an element of a sense 443 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,720 of urgency. So the work that we're doing for 444 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,680 Labour for Irish unity now is working with a whole range of 445 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,080 other organizations, particularly Irish community 446 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,760 organizations to raise the level of debate, raise the level of 447 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,800 awareness and then focus it more on Westminster with a Labour 448 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,400 government in power to say, look, you need to get a shift on 449 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,320 on that. All of us, we'll miss this 450 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,640 opportunity and we could go backwards rather than go 451 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,560 forwards. Did you see George Osborne 452 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:53,760 podcast recently where he was musing on what might have 453 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:58,840 happened if you and Jeremy had got us over the line in 2017 454 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,920 when it really happened, When it nearly happened and and he was 455 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,440 wondering aloud what the British establishment would do? 456 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,280 George has been a bit frank there, isn't he? 457 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,920 Do you think the British establishment were having 458 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,320 conversations about how they'd get rid of you and Jeremy if 459 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,240 you've got us over the line in 2017? 460 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:23,040 I'll tell you an anecdote first. When Jeremy decided to stand, we 461 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:24,840 worked very hard. I worked literally. 462 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:31,160 We had a week to get Jeremy onto the ballot paper and John 463 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,360 Landsman and I put together A-Team and we worked solidly and 464 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,720 with nominations had to be in by Monday lunch time 12:00. 465 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,160 It came to Sunday evening and we'd worked so hard. 466 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:47,560 We covered every MP we'd spoken to, their families, their 467 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,840 friends, to anything that would influence the In the end anyway, 468 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:53,520 it got through about half 6 something Andrew. 469 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:55,560 Fisher said. You nearly wore your knees out 470 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:57,280 at one point. You're on your knees begging. 471 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:02,640 John What? On one occasion I was it true. 472 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,760 I mean, it worked in the last 10 seconds. 473 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,960 The nomination went in. Anyway, that Sunday night my 474 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,920 wife and I had booked to go to the Globe to see one of these 475 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,480 Shakespeare plays where there's bodies lying all over the place, 476 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:21,360 you know, and, and at the I got a message from Seb, Seb Corbyn, 477 00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:25,520 Jeremy's son, who'd been working for me. 478 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,640 But that was a brilliant young lad anyway. 479 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:30,560 And he said, look, Dad's worried. 480 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:32,520 Yeah, this is in the middle of the break in the play. 481 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:34,840 And he said Dad's worried we might win. 482 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,400 He's worried. And I said, yeah, I said yeah. 483 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:43,000 I said don't worry. I said don't worry, don't worry. 484 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,200 I said, tell him MI 5 will execute him before he gets 485 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:55,560 anywhere new number 10 anywhere. And to be honest, they they 486 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,040 might not have wanted to do it physically, but they certainly 487 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,240 tried to do it in terms of the smears and all the rest that 488 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,640 they leverage against him. I think we knew that what not we 489 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,520 knew we were up against the establishment and we knew that 490 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,640 everything would be thrown against us. 491 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,640 So what do you do to try and combat that? 492 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:14,880 You become more skillful than them. 493 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:16,880 That's first of all. That means understanding the 494 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,400 system, how it works and having different options and different 495 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,120 policy positions that enables you to strengthen for those sort 496 00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:27,280 of robust ramparts around your administration. 497 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,520 But secondly, you build a mass movement. 498 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,120 And that's what we were trying to do. 499 00:28:32,120 --> 00:28:36,720 And if you think of it, when we went into 2017, even 2019 500 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,040 actually, we had built quite a mass movement of popular 501 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,440 support. And so it would have been very 502 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,600 difficult. So it would have been very 503 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,800 difficult for this establishment to, to remove us. 504 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,240 But what they would do is chip away and undermine us. 505 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,160 And to a certain extent, that's what they did. 506 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:58,720 You know, I, I joke about it, but a lot of my time was 507 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,320 basically spent on fending off booze that were taking place 508 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,000 launched within the PLP and elsewhere. 509 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,960 I've got a question about that John, my old boss, Reg Race and 510 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:16,680 your former mate, possibly at the GLC was a very strong former 511 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,720 ally at the left. And he wrote a really 512 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:21,680 interesting book. Well, it's interesting to me 513 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,400 because he was my boss. So I wanted to hear his, his his 514 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,080 life story. Goodbye to the working Class, it 515 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,320 was called. I think he was talking about the 516 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,680 class composition of British politics, not not his new 517 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,960 political orientation, but Reg can explain that. 518 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,960 And Reg wrote, I found this fascinating and I haven't seen 519 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,600 it picked up anywhere else. He wrote that key figures behind 520 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:52,040 the M PS Chicken coup to remove Jeremy Corbyn in 2016 briefly 521 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,560 considered another tactic and their idea was to mount a coup 522 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,480 in parliament. They briefly considered and Red 523 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,080 should know because he was in the inner sanctum of the group 524 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:02,600 that was doing the planning on this. 525 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,320 He said they considered creating a new party within a party and 526 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,040 telling the House of Commons Speaker that Jeremy was no 527 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:11,840 longer the leader of the opposition. 528 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,480 They even toyed at one point, although figures in the Co-op 529 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,320 party that they spoke to weren't interested of using the Co-op 530 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,840 party as a potential vehicle to do this. 531 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,920 What do you make of Reg's claim in the book? 532 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,400 Do you think it's plausible? Registered me as a bit of a 533 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,680 tragedy because he was, he was a brilliant left wing MP, he 534 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:31,880 really was. Was. 535 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,680 That his oratory was excellent, he was able to motivate and he 536 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,720 think things through and I don't I don't know what happened to 537 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:40,520 him. I still can't understand it now 538 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:44,280 that either way, his politics changed so dramatically over a 539 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:48,360 period time. Anyway, my view, my views that 540 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:55,160 literally we were having to deal with plots and coups every week. 541 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,120 There wasn't one. There was something coming out. 542 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,400 And part of my job was to try and see that what was coming 543 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,480 along, how we could fend that off. 544 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,360 And the best way of doing that really is to divide the plotters 545 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,400 amongst themselves and see who we can bring on board, etcetera, 546 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,040 how we could neutralize them as much as we possibly can. 547 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:14,240 That's. Like one of those war of 548 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,720 positions again. It was, it was just continuous 549 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:18,520 though. I'd give an example. 550 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,520 I persuaded Jeremy that Lisa and Andy and an up and coming young 551 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,400 woman on the left needed a good brief to give her a profile 552 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,120 because I thought she'd be one for the future. 553 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,960 So we gave her the environment brief which I thought was really 554 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,280 superb. But within about 3 months of her 555 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,920 being given that brief, she was in meetings that was talking 556 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,160 about the first coup against Jeremy Corbyn. 557 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,320 I called her in. I said, why are you doing this? 558 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:43,640 And she denied it. And I said, well, I'm afraid 559 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,360 it's accurate because I had someone in that meeting report 560 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,440 him back to me in the end and she's denied all this sentence. 561 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,080 Then she was one of the organizers of the the chicken 562 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:53,440 coop. You remember, they went to see 563 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,400 Jeremy, the group of them urging him to stand down and Jeremy, 564 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,320 nice guy that he has invited the ball in to have a conversation 565 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,520 about it. And then I went around and said, 566 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,320 you're not having it. Off you go, this is ridiculous, 567 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:08,080 but that was happening all the time. 568 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,720 The most dangerous element of that, this, and they did it over 569 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,400 the issue around Brexit. One idea was to split the Labour 570 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,280 Party and so there'd be a sort of a rump of the left, left 571 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:21,840 Ramsay. McDonald's national government 572 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,160 relay. They would either become the 573 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,800 sort of official opposition because the numerically they 574 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,200 were bigger than what was left of those of us with Jeremy, or 575 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,400 they would link up with the Tories in in some form and it'll 576 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,760 be a National Bank government. And that was always the problem. 577 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,600 It's split off my big worry and it was over the Brexit issue 578 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,600 largely. My big worry was that those 579 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,360 people around the People's Vote who had big money would fund 580 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,320 them and support them. And we could be in a situation 581 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,200 where the the Labour, the Parliamentary Labour Party is 582 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,160 split and Jeremy and I and our team were would be in a 583 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,000 minority. So I did everything I possibly 584 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:04,200 could and to link up even with people like Alastair Campbell to 585 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,640 give me as due. I think he saw the dangers of it 586 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,800 as well. And I was trying to make sure 587 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,800 that that a moon, a muna group never got bigger than it did. 588 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,040 And we didn't. We neutralized them to a certain 589 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:19,360 extent, but that took of a lot of talking to the devil really 590 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,080 in in with regard to Campbell and others. 591 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,240 But that had to be done. You know, the British 592 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,720 establishment works wouldn't be a direct, we'll send in the 593 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,240 troops or something like that. It would simply be working 594 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,520 through the existing systems. And they knew that one way of 595 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,600 bringing Jeremy down was to undermine his position via the 596 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,440 PLP and then try to undermine it within the wider party. 597 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,920 What we tried to do is manage the PLP as best we could, split 598 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,680 them up to try and do a broad church approach, which we 599 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,840 believed in anyway, but the same time appeal over their heads to 600 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,640 the membership and, and the membership did stay with us 601 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,960 throughout, which was quite interesting within the PLP. 602 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,600 We managed it for a bit, but it was tough. 603 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:03,960 And some of those parliamentary Labour Party meetings were 604 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:07,080 horrific. You know, the, the, IT was the 605 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:11,280 worst meetings I've ever been in where they did their assault on. 606 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:15,440 So you think a real risk if you if you and Jeremy had got into 607 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,360 government, probably 2017 was our best chance. 608 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,040 Do you think there was a real risk that if the establishment 609 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:23,880 was putting the Labour government under a huge 610 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,679 pressure, sections of the PLP might have been tempted by 611 00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:29,880 Reggie's scenario? It wouldn't have been the 612 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:34,600 traditional establishment coup in the sense you know, that like 613 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,719 under under Harold Wilson, we now know that the military were 614 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:39,480 looking at a coup at one point in time. 615 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,960 That's been proven. It wouldn't have been that 616 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,920 traditions like that. And under Wilson, there was a 617 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,880 lot of smears and stuff like that there to destabilize them. 618 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,120 I don't think it would have been anything like that. 619 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,520 I think the strategy would have been just as it was before the 620 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:59,320 election to try and split the PLP and then undermine the the 621 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,760 government by not having a parliamentary majority, as 622 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,000 simple as that. The the way to overcome that was 623 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,120 get into power and start delivering popular policies 624 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,200 immediately so that you're building up support within the 625 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,720 wider community. And therefore the those who were 626 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,760 looking at splitting the PLP or whatever would realize actually 627 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,920 if there was an election they wouldn't get back, we'd be re 628 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:24,880 elected on the basis the policies we. 629 00:35:25,720 --> 00:35:29,880 If you look at Ralph Miliband's last book, he actually he 630 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:34,040 addresses this is in his dying days, tragically, he addresses 631 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,240 the potential of a socialist government being elected and 632 00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:40,000 what they would need to do immediately to make sure they 633 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,480 had a momentum of support. And it was around very 634 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,120 straightforward measures, threatened butter issues that 635 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,880 working people faced, getting money into their pockets, 636 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,360 tackling poverty, getting the housing program going, making 637 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,880 sure the public services were improved, all of those sorts of 638 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:55,680 things. And that was our program 639 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,560 basically get elected. And they were then literally 640 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,000 within months, pouring out policy after policy that people 641 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,200 to see was changing their lives in that way. 642 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,200 Any attempted coup would be defeated. 643 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,360 Because if we had to, we'd go with the country again and say, 644 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,920 right, we're going to call election and we'll go with the 645 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,800 people on the policy program that we've been fermented so 646 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:18,600 far. Fascinating stuff John and if 647 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,440 any of the the younger watchers and listeners haven't read Chris 648 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:27,800 Mullins book A Very British Coup or watch the film on Channel 4, 649 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,000 you've got to watch it. And and then you'd know what me 650 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,200 and John were on about. If it hasn't been immediately 651 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,080 obvious today we've got to talk about Gaza. 652 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:40,000 John, let's watch you put your view over in Parliament in 653 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,560 December 2024. Which is the use of counter 654 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,080 terrorism powers against direct action groups. 655 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:50,080 And the last government even came forward with proposals and 656 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,560 discussions about prescribing Palestine action as a terrorist 657 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:55,560 organization. I'm hoping the government isn't 658 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,880 even going anywhere near that. But I tell you, these people 659 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:00,880 that are in prison at the moment, why are they in remand 660 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:02,800 at the moment? Why can't they be tagged before 661 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,320 their their trial comes up next November? 662 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,040 A number of them must probably will be proved innocent, but 663 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:09,920 they'll have served nearly two years in prison. 664 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,640 For what? For trying to do what we're 665 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:17,040 failing to do, preventing this government supplying the arms to 666 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:18,960 a regime that's killing children. 667 00:37:19,720 --> 00:37:22,160 So I say to the government, it's time to act now. 668 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:28,120 All arms licences need to be closed down and if it's a matter 669 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,760 of the honourable gentleman says, well it's about defending 670 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,160 Israel, well let's have a conversation with Israel itself 671 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,360 about how you supervise that defence internationally rather 672 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,880 than using that as an excuse to kill children. 673 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,840 I've had enough of coming back here every week. 674 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,840 As you can tell, Chair, we need now action from this government. 675 00:37:45,720 --> 00:37:49,000 Thanks for doing that, John. When you speak in Parliament, 676 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,600 it's so important for us, those, those of us in the Palestinian 677 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:56,440 movement, we appreciate every word that you and the campaign 678 00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:02,040 groups say on moments like that. I want to ask you, what is the 679 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:03,760 you? You spoke very eloquently there. 680 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,920 What is the cause of our government's terrible approach? 681 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,240 Is the labour rights Atlantis? Isn't a tying of their foreign 682 00:38:11,240 --> 00:38:15,200 policy to the United States the root of Starmer's policy on 683 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,080 Gaza? I think there's a range of 684 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:20,120 factors really. One, it's historical the the, 685 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,800 the role of the British Empire within the Middle East over over 686 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,120 the last couple of centuries really. 687 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:32,680 So it's tied to that inherited policy making that's taken 688 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:38,200 place, which enabled the the foundation of Israel and the 689 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,520 perpetration of the Napa. That's the thing. 690 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,080 It goes right the way back to Balfour and successive 691 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:48,440 governments have have held to that historical policy line. 692 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:52,240 That's the first thing. The second thing is why isn't it 693 00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:54,920 more independent even on these days when we're watching the 694 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,000 horrors that are taking place in Gaza? 695 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:01,360 And yes, that is, I think linked to first of all, Biden and now 696 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,160 Trump. And they won't, they will not 697 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:08,840 move unless they're unable to. The any policy development in 698 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,440 this country is sanctioned by the US. 699 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:16,480 And I honestly think that I say this to Labour ministers, they 700 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:22,200 have to be careful about their own position, both in history, 701 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,120 the history, historical judgement that there will be, 702 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,800 but also their legal position at the moment about complicity in 703 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:33,000 what is a genocide. Literally it's heart rending 704 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,440 listening to Labour MPs, particularly the new ones, 705 00:39:36,720 --> 00:39:41,160 desperately making appeals to its own government to just to do 706 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:45,040 the basics, you know, the stop the arms supply rate, the a 707 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:49,280 blockade, recognize the Palestinian state and the 708 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,320 responses we're getting from ministers. 709 00:39:51,720 --> 00:39:54,360 Yeah, they make me angry. And that's why in some instances 710 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,360 I will I will almost lose my temper. 711 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:01,360 I I go to, I go to my local Labour Party meeting and my 712 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,640 experience locally is that the government's lost the party on 713 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:06,720 this. Yeah. 714 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,320 And Starmer's completely lost the membership on this one. 715 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,400 Is is the pressure beginning to tell on our MPs? 716 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,360 I don't they know that they've got, we see from opinion polls 717 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,800 in the country when we're allowed to debate the issue in 718 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:25,160 in the labour movement like the TUC the other day, we see them 719 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,360 adopting an excellent position. Don't know that they're 720 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,840 completely isolated and in disgrace. 721 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,520 Well, interesting. It's when there's a discussion 722 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:42,720 or statement on Gaza, Palestine, the Middle East, the banks of 723 00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:48,680 Labour MPs are packed and it's interesting across the political 724 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:53,360 perspective in the PLP, more and more people now are getting up 725 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,320 and saying we can't go on like this, we can't go on like this. 726 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,520 And I think that's as a result of, yes, them all coming to 727 00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:03,040 their own individual judgements, of course, as human beings. 728 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,800 But it's also as a result of the expressions of concern and 729 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:12,040 absolute solidarity that's coming from, yes, rank and file 730 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,280 Labour Party members and supporters, but the wider 731 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:18,680 community as well. So that I'm pleased that that 732 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,080 pressure is is being exerted on Labour MPs and it is changing 733 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,040 the attitude and atmosphere within the PLP. 734 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,760 But it hasn't, it hasn't changed the attitude within the cabinet. 735 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:30,440 That's the tragedy on all of this. 736 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,920 As you get older, you know, literally on your deathbed, do 737 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,840 you really want to look back and think what have I done with my 738 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:40,720 life? And one of the roles I played 739 00:41:40,720 --> 00:41:44,440 was as a Labour minister that enabled this genocide to take 740 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:45,680 place. Of course you don't. 741 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:49,560 So is trying to shake them up and to act to respond 742 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:52,840 responsibly and reflect popular opinion in our country. 743 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:55,880 I think it will be 1 of the factors if they don't change. 744 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,640 I think it will be 1 of the factors that actually this 745 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,360 government will be defeated on eventually. 746 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,360 They won't be re elected in many constituencies purely in 747 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:05,760 sympathy because of the issue of Gaza. 748 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,760 Now let's look at how the left is shaping up in Britain today. 749 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:14,400 I think we have to be frank that the post Corbyn left is 750 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,400 fragmented. The Momentum and the Socialist 751 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,480 Campaign group, people such as ourselves are sticking it out in 752 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:25,000 the Labour Party, Jeremy and Zara are setting up a new party 753 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,440 and Zach Polanski is trying to turbocharge the Greens with eco 754 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,560 populism. But John, I don't know what you 755 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,680 feel like, but I feel like all the people I've just spoken 756 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,880 about are my friends. What should we do? 757 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:42,240 They all are. First, I welcome the election as 758 00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:45,560 Zach Polanski. I've met him a few times and 759 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:47,080 I've been on a couple of platforms with him. 760 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:51,360 So I welcome that because he's reinvigorating the Green Party 761 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:53,600 and he's introducing it to the Green Party. 762 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,160 More socialist practice as well, which was I think is really 763 00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:57,920 helpful. That's the first thing. 764 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,280 When he was elected leader, in his press conference, he was 765 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,800 asked a question about electoral pacts and what he said. 766 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,800 He says, I'll, I'll credit John McDonald with this. 767 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:11,160 I don't want to steal his legs. I love that he. 768 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,200 Says he says. What John said is that we have 769 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,920 intellectual coalitions and alliances and I think that's 770 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:23,720 exactly where we need to be really with regard to Jeremy and 771 00:43:23,720 --> 00:43:27,400 Zara, both of them, both of them would be in the Labour Party's 772 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:29,640 Labour MPs now if they weren't forced out. 773 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,240 The time it took Jeremy to make his move indicates he was 774 00:43:34,240 --> 00:43:37,480 incredibly reluctant and his natural home would have been in 775 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,360 the party with us. Jeremy and I've been the Labour 776 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:44,120 Party 50 years. You know, he wants to be, I've 777 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,920 kept saying to Starmer time and time again, you, you know, you 778 00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:51,640 do not underestimate how popular Jeremy is within the country 779 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,480 itself. And he's a huge electoral asset. 780 00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,240 And that what you should be doing is welcoming back into the 781 00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:01,280 party, have a rapprochement. And it's the same with Zara. 782 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,280 Jeremy and Zara were forced down. 783 00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,240 So it was inevitable. So what do they do? 784 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,400 Well, Jeremy stands as an independent and wins his seat. 785 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,720 And then they look at what political formation they need to 786 00:44:12,720 --> 00:44:16,760 take their ideas forward. So again, what I've, I've said 787 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,680 there, I, I'd rather they were in the party. 788 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:23,440 I'd rather Labour leadership, either now or in the immediate 789 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,960 future, as soon as possible welcomes them back in. 790 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,280 But in the meantime, if they establish the, the the party, 791 00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:32,320 we've got to recognise that we've faced an incredibly 792 00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:34,520 dangerous moment. This is a dangerous moment. 793 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,280 We've got the potential, the election of a far right 794 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:39,800 government. You know, I've been criticised 795 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:45,080 for calling it proto fascist and they said, are you compared 796 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,000 Farage with Hitler and all? No, I haven't. 797 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,200 I've not called reform fascist. What I've said in the technical 798 00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,600 definition of proto fascism is that there are the agree 799 00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:57,280 ingredients there that could lead to fascism if we're not 800 00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:58,800 careful, if people don't wake up. 801 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:04,240 And so I think the potential of reform being elected is such a 802 00:45:04,240 --> 00:45:06,640 dangerous moment. We've got to recognise that 803 00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,640 wherever we are, whatever political party or movement 804 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,720 we're in, we need a Popular Front against this. 805 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:17,080 And so I've been saying to people, I want I'm going to 806 00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:20,400 remain within the Labour Party and my view in the Labour Party, 807 00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,200 you know what it's like, change could appear. 808 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,960 We're not not happy with the current leadership, not happy 809 00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:29,240 with much of what they're doing and the huge mistakes that 810 00:45:29,240 --> 00:45:31,360 they've made. But change can occur in the 811 00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:33,840 Labour Party almost overnight in some instances. 812 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,640 And people will say how well that's how Jeremy got elected. 813 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:38,800 No one thought Jeremy Corn ever become leader of the Labour 814 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,480 Party, but it happened. So change can be brought about 815 00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,880 within the Labour Party and I'm sticking within the Labour Party 816 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,720 because it is my party. I've been in longer than most of 817 00:45:47,720 --> 00:45:50,760 those people who are currently in the Labour leadership. 818 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,760 And what I want to do is bring about change within that party. 819 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,880 Now, you know, they might expel me, I don't know, I've not lost 820 00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:58,120 the whip. They might kick me out. 821 00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:01,040 But for as long as I'm within the party, I'll be campaigning 822 00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,760 to change because we, whatever people think, a large majority 823 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,880 of working class people do still associate with the Labour Party 824 00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:10,720 less and less now because of the behaviour of the existing 825 00:46:10,720 --> 00:46:12,920 government. But many of them still do. 826 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:14,360 So I still don't think there's hope. 827 00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:17,000 And there's still the link with the trade union movement as 828 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,240 well, which is the basis of working class activity for many 829 00:46:20,240 --> 00:46:23,360 people. So, but you said, having said 830 00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:27,560 all that, my appeal is that wherever you are, we're faced 831 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,080 with this dangerous threat. We've got to work together. 832 00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,440 So whether you're in the Greens or within the New York Party, 833 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,560 whether you're in the Labour Party or the trade unions or any 834 00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:40,480 progressive movement or any civil society organization that 835 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,720 is a press progressive nature, we've got to work together on a 836 00:46:43,720 --> 00:46:46,560 common front and popular populist front. 837 00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:53,400 I keep reminding people in the 1930s, the reason the Nazis got 838 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,920 got into power was because the Communist Party and the Social 839 00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,080 Democrats refused to cooperate initially. 840 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:03,760 You know, there was the United front policy from the Communist 841 00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,320 Party, which was saying we'll have a united front as long as 842 00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:09,040 we dominate it. And the Social Democrats refused 843 00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,720 to participate. It was only later in the 30s 844 00:47:11,720 --> 00:47:14,320 that the Popular Front emerged, but by then it was too late. 845 00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:17,560 The Nazis were in power. What I'm trying to say is wake 846 00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:19,280 up. You do not, I'm not talking 847 00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:21,280 about Nazis, I'm talking about the far right. 848 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,960 You do not want them in power. So what you need to do is work 849 00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,440 together to prevent that. And there's a whole range of 850 00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,680 different campaigns that we can work together on. 851 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,560 One of them at the moment is the protection of asylum seekers and 852 00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:38,440 develop a campaign to ensure that we maintain the role of 853 00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:44,160 this country as welcoming asylum asylum seekers into our country 854 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,160 and provide them with conflict and soccer and solidarity. 855 00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:49,680 I don't want to get involved in any of these ridiculous 856 00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:52,680 sectarian arguments about whether you're in the party or 857 00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,480 not or which party you're in at the moment. 858 00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:57,840 It's such a dangerous moment. It's irrelevant. 859 00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:01,360 That's a secondary discussion. It's more about what our 860 00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:03,520 objectives and how can we work together and achieve those 861 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:05,280 objectives. And I think that's the message 862 00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:08,880 that people can take, whether they're like you and I, very 863 00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,520 much staying within the Labour Party or whether they're on the 864 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,600 Green left or in the the new party, our party. 865 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:17,960 We must push back against people that want to be sectarian and 866 00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:20,880 divided when it comes to Heathrow, when it comes to the 867 00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:24,600 climate change, when it comes to Gaza, train union disputes, 868 00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:29,080 housing campaigns. We must remain united. 869 00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:32,640 Anyway, that's a great place to bring the first half to a closed 870 00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:33,240 jump. John. 871 00:48:33,240 --> 00:48:35,640 I'll be back in a moment to discuss Labour's future, the 872 00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,720 Deputy leadership contest and he's going to name his class 873 00:48:38,720 --> 00:48:41,840 Hero of the Month. If you're enjoying the podcast, 874 00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:43,800 please help us with our promotion. 875 00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:45,880 Please give us a like and a follow. 876 00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,800 Every comment draws the podcast to a wider potential audience. 877 00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:53,000 Please, please, please share it with your friends as it is 878 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:56,840 people like you that can get the podcast to a much wider audience 879 00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:59,240 hit. Subscribe now to make sure you 880 00:48:59,240 --> 00:49:01,400 never miss an episode of the podcast. 881 00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:04,760 Follow our sponsors at Labour Hub and their excellent news 882 00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:06,720 site. The October episode of the 883 00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:11,080 Labour Left Podcast will be with Mark Perriman to talk about his 884 00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,800 excellent new book, The Starmer Synton. 885 00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,440 Now it's back to John. John, we, we, we, we, we did a 886 00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:20,640 lot of scene setting and looking back at the history in the first 887 00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,280 part. Now let's look at where the 888 00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,640 Labour Party is. Let's turn our attention to 889 00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,040 Labour. You had a very interesting 890 00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:33,640 article in the Guardian recently where you said the Labour Party 891 00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:37,680 is facing one of its most dangerous moments in history, 892 00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:42,000 possibly an existential threat. Not only are we adrift in the 893 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:46,320 polls, losing 1 election after another, but we've the leaders. 894 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,520 Popularity is plummeted but the main threat comes from the 895 00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:53,280 xenophobic hard right in the shape of Reform UK. 896 00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:56,320 What did you mean when you wrote Existential Threat? 897 00:49:56,720 --> 00:50:03,280 My view is the threat from reform is such that we could not 898 00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:09,720 just lose a Labour government, we could lose the support and 899 00:50:09,720 --> 00:50:14,040 confidence that working class people have in the Labour Party 900 00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:16,480 itself. Where Labour, where working 901 00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:20,720 class people can look at the Labour Party and say it doesn't 902 00:50:20,720 --> 00:50:24,200 represent me, you can see it fragmenting already. 903 00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:29,560 A lot of the concerns that we have are about the election of a 904 00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:33,760 far right government and that that's undoubtedly true and it 905 00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:37,000 builds upon the sort of base that that they established 906 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:39,840 around the Brexit vote in particular in some areas. 907 00:50:40,240 --> 00:50:45,120 The concern that I have is that if the reform bills the way it 908 00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:49,840 is, it elects a reform government, people will then 909 00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,920 look back and think what a failure Labour was in government 910 00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:56,280 and it failed to protect us. And they will no longer look to 911 00:50:56,280 --> 00:51:01,240 the Labour Party as their main voice in the democratic system. 912 00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:04,640 That's the existential threat. I wondered whether you were 913 00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:08,120 going down the sort of pass occification route. 914 00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:12,520 You know the idea that the Greek Socialist Party actually self 915 00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:17,160 destructed and and and ceased at one point to exist. 916 00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:21,360 We first passed the poster is is there a danger with the 917 00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:25,960 so-called wide book shallow majority that we've we're facing 918 00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:28,400 an even greater Cliff we could fall off. 919 00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:31,400 If you look at all the evidence and This is why I think it is an 920 00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,000 existential threat. In that article I said the first 921 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:37,960 thing to do is just stop making huge policy mistakes. 922 00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:42,520 They seem to have systematically alienated section after section 923 00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:44,680 of our support. I, I want to get on to the 924 00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:48,120 deputy leadership, John, but I think we, we must say as the 925 00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:51,040 left what, what our stance is on proportional representation, 926 00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:53,880 because if we're going to stop reforming their tracks, that's 927 00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:56,640 got to be one of the tools. Could you quickly just put on 928 00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:58,720 record what your stance is on PR? 929 00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:01,720 I've been an advocate for proportional representation now 930 00:52:01,720 --> 00:52:04,600 for over a decade. I was a first past the post 931 00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:07,680 system up until then. And then I looked at our society 932 00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:11,280 and I thought, actually what we need to do is 2 things, be truly 933 00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:15,520 representative overall and not have this situation as in the 934 00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:19,720 last election, you can have, you know, a government elected on, 935 00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:23,240 well, they had, they had less votes than Jeremy got at the 936 00:52:23,240 --> 00:52:25,000 last election to get elected itself. 937 00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:27,240 So you needed a fairer system overall. 938 00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:30,880 But in addition to that, you needed a system where there was 939 00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:35,360 a range of representation that genuinely that represented the 940 00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,200 different political current within our society. 941 00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:41,560 And I think if you look at in our in our society, in 942 00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:45,800 particular our community, in particular the majority of the 943 00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:49,080 different political currents, if you put them together, they 944 00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:53,480 actually are progressive rather left rather than right. 945 00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:57,160 And on that basis we could prevent the rise of the far 946 00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:59,040 right. If we had a proportional 947 00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:03,160 representation system, of course it would mean that the far right 948 00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:05,880 would get some seats that because there's an element of 949 00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:09,280 that support within the country. But I believe with PR you'd get 950 00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:14,320 a, you wouldn't allow one party to dominate the political agenda 951 00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:18,440 in Westminster on the basis of getting a such narrow majority, 952 00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,120 if you like. So I've been a strong advocate 953 00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:24,640 for it and it's interesting enough, you know, a large number 954 00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:26,360 of people have come to that view. 955 00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:29,880 I saw that Andy Burnham now has come out in favour of PR and 956 00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:32,480 again, if you're looking at the future of the Labour Party, that 957 00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,760 people like Andy who may well be in positions of influence that 958 00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:38,800 will enable that to happen. So the deputy leadership, let's 959 00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:42,360 talk about the lead Labour deputy leadership contest. 960 00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:46,560 Then we had a nominations threshold of ATM PS which they 961 00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:49,920 push through conference that that they've been the right wing 962 00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:52,320 just after Keir Starmer got elected. 963 00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:56,360 The time for MPs to we even think was rushed to stop the 964 00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:59,640 party influencing them. And there's only one round of 965 00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:04,160 nominations to try and favour the leadership's payroll vote 966 00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:07,920 and discriminate against any more challenging candidates. 967 00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:12,280 Why do the Labour leadership dislike the Labour Party 968 00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:15,880 membership so much? Why do they go to such lengths 969 00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:19,000 to stop us having our say? We have a Labour Party 970 00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:21,560 leadership that's terrified of its own members. 971 00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:23,280 That's what the reality is, isn't it? 972 00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:27,400 You know? And they, they know that if the 973 00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:33,080 members had a opportunity of voting for candidates presenting 974 00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:38,440 the Broad Church left, right and centre, they know that the 975 00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:43,160 result of that election almost certainly would be a left 976 00:54:43,240 --> 00:54:45,640 candidate being elected. Even though we've lost a couple 977 00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:50,120 of 100,000 members, still the bulk of our membership are to 978 00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:52,200 the left of the Parliamentary Labour Party. 979 00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:55,280 And I think the Labour leadership is absolutely 980 00:54:55,360 --> 00:55:00,120 terrified of enabling our members to elect someone who 981 00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:03,160 might actually be their voice. So we're in this ludicrous 982 00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:05,960 position, I should say, where we have a deputy leadership 983 00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:10,240 election where there's three days in which to nominate, so 984 00:55:10,240 --> 00:55:14,120 there's no time to go back in the normal way for MPs to meet 985 00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:17,200 with their constituencies, consult their members and take 986 00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:19,800 their views into account. That that's the first thing. 987 00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:25,440 As you say, the threshold was doubled from 40 to 80 to to 20% 988 00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,760 and that was very specific and it was blatant as well. 989 00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:32,400 This is a way in which we block a left candidate coming onto the 990 00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:33,960 agenda. That was the whole thing. 991 00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:38,080 Well, we're now in this farcical situation where 2 two people 992 00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:42,480 will tour the country, eliciting the votes of party members and 993 00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:46,800 trade unions etcetera, and there isn't a cigarette paper you can 994 00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:50,520 put between the two people. I was hoping today that as a 995 00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:54,400 that somebody who remembers the Cold War, that you might have 996 00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:58,360 been a Kremlinologist and you could discern the political 997 00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:02,520 difference between Lucy and Bridget. 998 00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:04,960 What is the difference is 1 of them? 999 00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:06,960 What is the political difference? 1000 00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:08,120 I can't. Spot it. 1001 00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:11,400 Well, let's just run through the Kiev decisions over the last 1002 00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:14,840 year. Did they vote both vote on the 1003 00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:17,760 issue of scrapping winter fuel announcement, Yes they did. 1004 00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:21,760 Did they both not support the scrapping of the two child 1005 00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:23,000 limit? Yes they did. 1006 00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:26,480 Did both support the disability benefit cuts? 1007 00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:29,280 Yes they did. And what's their position on 1008 00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:31,880 Gaza? Exactly the same. 1009 00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:34,400 So what's, what's the choice there for one of them? 1010 00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:36,200 Northern John, you're forgetting one of them. 1011 00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:38,120 Northern. No, they're both northern. 1012 00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:39,560 They're. Both Northern. 1013 00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:40,760 Sorry. Northwest. 1014 00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:42,760 Even that even that difference is. 1015 00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:47,520 Gone but once northwest and once northeast, you think that's the 1016 00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:50,600 deciding factor? This is ludicrous, isn't it? 1017 00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:54,120 This is a, you know, people have said this is a stitch up. 1018 00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:56,560 It's you know, I know a stitch up when I see one. 1019 00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:58,640 This is it. The good thing about it, at 1020 00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:01,560 least we we had a Socialist Campaign Group candidate. 1021 00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:04,880 Let's have a word for Bell. You took your turn on the rotor 1022 00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:08,840 in the dark years, Blairism and Belle took her turn on the road 1023 00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:11,280 to this year. I thought she did a fantastic 1024 00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:13,560 job. All those over those few days to 1025 00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:16,400 see a socialist, the news night was a revelation. 1026 00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:19,240 It was a tribute. To Belle, she was articulate. 1027 00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:22,400 She wouldn't be browbeaten in any of those interviews. 1028 00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:25,960 She just put the ideas across in a very, I thought a very sort of 1029 00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:29,800 confident way, but in a very clear and communication of a 1030 00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:33,000 program that she stood on. And actually if you look at the 1031 00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:35,040 responses to it, people say, well, that's the sort of 1032 00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:37,320 socialism I'm talking about. That's what we need. 1033 00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:41,880 And in comparison with the other candidates who just recited the 1034 00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:46,320 same old lines and I, I just think as the Labour Party sort 1035 00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:49,200 of missed a trick on this one because I think the general 1036 00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:53,360 public would welcome a wider debate and Hicks, Keir Starmer 1037 00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:58,680 would in some ways allowing A wider range of candidates would 1038 00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:01,760 have demonstrated that he's more comfortable in his own position. 1039 00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:03,960 He doesn't have to stitch things up in this way. 1040 00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:07,720 But anyway, it's it's been done and I think again it's a set 1041 00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:10,400 back for the party. But we will move forward. 1042 00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:13,160 The good thing now is. I thought one of the things that 1043 00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:18,640 Bell did that said it all for me, there was the huge row about 1044 00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:23,000 Pete Mandelson broke and she was the first person to call for his 1045 00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:27,680 resignation. In December 24, I put it on 1046 00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:31,800 social media that the appointment of Peter Mandelson 1047 00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:35,920 will call into question Keir Starmer's sense of judgement, 1048 00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:38,040 basically. And that's exactly what it's 1049 00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:41,400 done. And, and Belle was very clear on 1050 00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:44,520 all of this when no one else was amongst those candidates. 1051 00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:46,280 She was very clear. Yeah. 1052 00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:49,320 I think she's, she's risen in a lot of people's estimation. 1053 00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:52,280 And she's a good reflection of the new generation, particularly 1054 00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:54,320 of young women that are coming through on the left. 1055 00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:56,680 So finally, John, the big question. 1056 00:58:56,920 --> 00:59:01,840 You've appeared in the Labour Left Podcast Hall of Fame of 1057 00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:06,160 Class Heroes of the Month and but modestly you suggested that 1058 00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:10,400 other people might have a a greater case for being in the 1059 00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:16,320 Class Hero Hall of Fame. So John, who is going to be your 1060 00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:19,440 Class Hero of the Month? The person I want to nominate is 1061 00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:24,000 an old friend of mine who's passed away a while back, and 1062 00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:29,840 his name is David Graeber. David Graeber is an anarchist, 1063 00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:38,440 was an anarchist anthropologist and some of his work I think is 1064 00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:44,040 I, I, my own view, I think intellectually his work is so 1065 00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:49,080 stimulating and but it is groundbreaking and challenging 1066 00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:53,520 and unique novel ideas. And then when you've read one of 1067 00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:57,280 his books, it's, it's always one of those things, you know, the 1068 00:59:57,280 --> 01:00:00,840 best books when you come away from them thinking. 1069 01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:03,920 Because I thought that, but I've never really read it before. 1070 01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:07,320 There's that sort of thing, you know, you, you, you know, you 1071 01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:10,560 agree and think, well, why didn't I say that? 1072 01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:14,320 It's that sort of thing. And he sort of, he comes from a 1073 01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:18,800 unique perspective as an anarchist and anthropologist of 1074 01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:21,040 looking at issues that we're addressing. 1075 01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:27,520 But he brings that expertise that in some ways the breadth of 1076 01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:31,720 his understanding, but he always has a unique analysis of it that 1077 01:00:31,720 --> 01:00:34,960 stimulates me. So yeah, David Graeber, I think 1078 01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:40,040 I, I think when people read his work, and I think it's beginning 1079 01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:43,600 to become much more appreciated now, I think when they read his 1080 01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:46,400 work, they'll realize actually he was, he was quite an 1081 01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:48,280 intellectual giant for our period. 1082 01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:50,760 Going back to the beginning of our interview, John, when we 1083 01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:54,600 talked about Gramsci, Gramsci had this, this notion of the 1084 01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:57,840 organic intellectual. Yeah, intellectual that wasn't 1085 01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:02,440 just in some kind of university far away from the struggle. 1086 01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:05,880 The true organic intellectual is it? 1087 01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:10,080 It understands the importance of ideas and takes them into the 1088 01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:12,880 struggle. And I thought that your choice 1089 01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:16,360 during the Occupy movement, he demonstrated how to do that, 1090 01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:20,280 didn't he? Well, I first met him, I think. 1091 01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:26,240 I think I first met him when he was, it was at after climate 1092 01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:30,520 camp in my constituency. There was a group that squatted 1093 01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:34,800 a piece of land and they turned it into a like a market garden 1094 01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:39,240 or the whole local community and they put up PPS and different 1095 01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:43,240 structures on the land and I was invited down. 1096 01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:46,080 They were holding seminars about different aspects. 1097 01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:50,080 When I first heard David, I walked onto the site and there 1098 01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:54,880 was a structure and a a group of about 50 people sitting down on 1099 01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:57,760 the the haunted listening to these voice. 1100 01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:01,600 And it was David Graber's voice and I've never met him before 1101 01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:03,600 then. And I went in and listened to 1102 01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:09,720 him after that, started reading him more and then met him at 1103 01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:11,920 virtually every demonstration or whatever. 1104 01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:14,360 As you say, Occupy was important then. 1105 01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:18,840 And we just came, we just became friends, firm friends on, on 1106 01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:22,120 different marches and on, on different platforms, etcetera. 1107 01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:25,880 But he just had a unique analysis and it was always 1108 01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:28,560 stimulating. But you'd come away and it was 1109 01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:31,560 this Gramsci thing. As I said, you come away and you 1110 01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:33,320 think, well, that's common sense. 1111 01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:37,360 David Graver. Huge loss when he died, and it 1112 01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:41,200 was a shock when he died and no one expected it came suddenly. 1113 01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:42,880 Oh yeah. David Graeber. 1114 01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:44,640 Terrible loss and a great choice, John. 1115 01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:49,920 If you were to guide listeners and watchers to one of his 1116 01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:51,640 books, which one would you choose? 1117 01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:55,880 The dawn of everything, A new history of humanity. 1118 01:02:56,320 --> 01:03:03,120 OK, but if if you want something that's a straw but fascinating 1119 01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:07,960 one, it's if there's a typical David Graeber he did. 1120 01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:15,440 He did a really good on pirates. It's called Pirate Enlightenment 1121 01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:19,240 and it's a short book, but it's fascinating in which he 1122 01:03:19,240 --> 01:03:24,840 demonstrates that actually pirates operated basically on 1123 01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:29,760 democratic basis and we're more effective as a result. 1124 01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:34,200 It's just interesting. But really he was his reading 1125 01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:36,960 was so extensive. You know, he's a Poly polymath 1126 01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:40,440 in many ways, even though he'd never accept titles like that. 1127 01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:45,040 He was a very modest person, but he's his reading was absolutely 1128 01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:48,200 stimulated. He wrote the other book that one 1129 01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:51,880 of his last books as well. And this is a bit upset about 1130 01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:54,680 this. He, he wrote a book called 1131 01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:56,240 Bullshit Jobs. Yeah. 1132 01:03:57,040 --> 01:03:59,480 And he sent me the draft and all the rest. 1133 01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:01,800 And they said could I do a blurb for it and all the rest. 1134 01:04:02,040 --> 01:04:05,240 It was in the middle of the bloody general election, 2019, 1135 01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:08,160 so I didn't have time for doing it then. 1136 01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:11,680 But they reproduced it and I did a little blurb. 1137 01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:13,720 But that was after he'd died, unfortunately. 1138 01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:18,280 But Bullshit Jobs I think is really fascinating It, it 1139 01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:23,040 basically says really all of us want to do a job which is 1140 01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:26,240 stimulating often with our hands, our skills or whatever, 1141 01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:28,480 you know. But what we've done is we've 1142 01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:33,520 invented all these bullshit jobs of managerial jobs of different 1143 01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:36,400 sorts and all the rest of it. It's been like Prem seekers. 1144 01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:40,520 As you know, we've produced more accountants in this country than 1145 01:04:40,520 --> 01:04:45,240 the rest of Europe. God knows what they're doing, 1146 01:04:45,240 --> 01:04:48,080 apart from advising on tax avoidance is that sort of thing, 1147 01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:52,920 you know, the nature of NGO capitalism, isn't it really? 1148 01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:56,040 And I think that ties in with David Graeber's analysis too. 1149 01:04:56,320 --> 01:04:58,680 But yeah, I'd urge people to read him because he's got some 1150 01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:03,080 brilliant ideas. And again he comes at it, it is 1151 01:05:03,080 --> 01:05:07,720 an anarchist position position, but again, the one that I that I 1152 01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:12,560 treasure because it is all about individuals coming together as 1153 01:05:12,560 --> 01:05:17,640 as a community, not requiring the state in many respects to 1154 01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:21,160 ensure that they can develop the quality of their their existence 1155 01:05:21,600 --> 01:05:25,880 and do it in a way which respects democratic and human 1156 01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:28,360 rights. So, John, that brings us to the 1157 01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:32,040 end of the interview and it's, it's been a fantastic interview. 1158 01:05:32,040 --> 01:05:35,120 I've really enjoyed it. And I hope we showed that 2 old 1159 01:05:35,120 --> 01:05:39,240 leftists can, even in the dire circumstances we face today, can 1160 01:05:39,240 --> 01:05:43,000 face what we've got to do with humour and a smile. 1161 01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:45,480 We certainly can. We might be a bit rambling at 1162 01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:50,680 times, but I'm sorry about that. So, John, thanks very much and 1163 01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:53,680 good luck at conference. You'll need it.