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Hi, I'm Bryn Griffiths, your 
Labour Left podcast host, and 

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today I'm delighted to welcome 
Belle Ribeiro. 

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Adi Belle entered Parliament as 
part of the New Labour Left 

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intake of 2019, alongside 
numerous other excellent 

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socialists such as Nadia 
Whitton, Apsana Begum, Kym 

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Johnson and Ian Byrne. 
Belle has a fantastic history of

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fighting racism. 
Before becoming an MP in her own

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right, she was the chief of 
staff to Diane Abbott, Britain's

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first ever black MP and the 
mother of the House. 

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Belle hit the ground running 
with her maiden speech in 

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Parliament when she took her 
fight right into the heart of 

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the House. 
She said. 

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Let's address the historic 
injustices of the British 

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Empire. 
You started as you meant to 

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carry on, Belle. 
How you doing? 

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I'm doing well. 
Thank you very much. 

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So let's let's have a look a bit
at your history and to put it 

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mildly, your history, your 
personal history, I mean is very

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different to the average member 
of Parliament. 

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Your family history is West 
African, Ghanaian and you were 

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born in the year of 1985 of the 
Brixton Uprisings and you were 

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brought up in a council house on
Brixton Hill. 

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How do you think that you're 
very different background as an 

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MP to the average Oxford 
graduate has impacted upon your 

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politics? 
Well, well, I hope it's had a 

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good impact. 
I think one of the perhaps worst

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things about my profession is, 
is it's not necessarily 

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representative enough of the 
country, not representative 

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enough of the people we are 
meant to represent. 

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And we are meant to be the most 
significant group of 

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representatives alongside 
councillors and things we make 

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decisions that really make 
impacts on, on, on people's 

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lives. 
So the idea that we didn't 

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reflect our, our, our public is,
is a huge problem. 

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I however was very pleased to 
come up in that 2019 intake 

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because the fantastic thing 
about that intake is it brought 

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about one of well and obviously 
we have an even more diverse 

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parliament now. 
But that 2019 intake was it was 

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like 80% women, it was 50% 
black, black and Asian ethnic 

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minority and it was 100% working
class. 

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And that was the probably the 
first time even amongst labour M

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PS that that a labour new intake
of M PS came in like that. 

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So it was brilliant. 
Let's look a bit deeper back 

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into your history. 
I was fascinated when I was 

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reading all about Bell to find 
out one of the your early 

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political actions was your 
opposition when you were very 

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active in the National Union 
students to a meeting that was 

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being held by Andrew Bronze. 
And for those that don't don't 

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have the misfortune to know who 
that creep is, he was the 

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fascist British National Party 
member of the European 

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Parliament, former member of the
National Front, and it was 

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proposed that he should speak at
Durham University's debating 

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society in 2010. 
And then you became involved. 

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What happened though? 
Well, I mean, in the years 

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leading up to that, the British 
National Party had a hold in 

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certain areas and it was 
actually having an impact. 

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You know, when they were 
actually had political office in

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places like Bradford where they 
had membership on the council, 

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it was it was having a negative 
impact on those communities. 

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And wherever they were 
campaigning or planning to speak

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around student campuses, racist 
attacks were rising. 

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And it was my job as, as the 
black students officer and that 

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was the representative for all 
students of African, Arab, Asian

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and Caribbean heritage in, in, 
in the country. 

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It was it was my job to, to, to 
campaign against said race 

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attacks. 
And, and we actually wanted the 

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talk stopped. 
The national UN of students at 

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the time had a no platform 
policy for fascists. 

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As far as we were concerned, the
British National Party were a 

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fascist group and we, you know, 
we said that we would, we would 

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not share a platform with them 
and we would not want other 

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people to share a platform with 
them either. 

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We knew that there would be a 
lot of protesting in the area. 

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So I wrote to the university and
explained to the university 

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alongside another colleague of 
mine who was the LGBT officer 

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because as I said, BNP are a 
fascist group and said that, you

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know, this was going ahead, race
attacks would increase against 

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students and if if it was going 
to go ahead that we were going 

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to protest. 
I was accused of threatening the

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university with bringing up 
loads of protesters and I was 

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eventually censured by the NUS. 
However, my colleague that 

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signed the letter with me was 
not censored. 

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I understand that was because 
some people were out of the room

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at the time. 
It, it was because some people 

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are out of the room at the time.
But he, when it came up to him, 

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he's, he made the point in his 
speech. 

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He said I, I am a white man and 
you and, and now you have called

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the vote for me individually at 
a time when everyone's back in 

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the room. 
Now imagine what it's going to 

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look like for you to censure a 
black woman and to not censure 

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me for doing exactly the same 
thing. 

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I understand there was a a 
rather prominent future Labour 

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minister involved in your 
censure I. 

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Mean he wasn't directly 
involved, but I believe he voted

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for it. 
Who was that? 

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That was West Streeting. 
An early introduction to a man 

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that you were going know well in
the future. 

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I think that's pretty shocking 
that in the National Union 

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Students you could be censored 
for running a campaign to no 

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platform. 
That Bronze used to be in the 

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National Socialist. 
National Front, Yeah, No, I'm 

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just. 
Urging the National Socialist 

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Movement in the 1960s. 
It wasn't for. 

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The National bronze. 
He was the real deal, you know? 

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Yeah, I mean, it was, it was all
about Durham University's anger 

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at me writing a letter, the fact
that I went straight to the head

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of the university as opposed to 
Students Union. 

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And Durham University actually 
disaffiliated for the next few 

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years until I left the National 
Union of Students. 

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Yeah. 
And as I said, I was accused of 

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threatening people. 
But I I, I believe in being very

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direct in my communication. 
Some people like it, some people

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don't. 
I, I, I just think I just had to

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be very, very clear about the 
fact that racist attacks were 

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already increasing because it 
was being advertised and the 

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fact that we were going to 
protest, we were not going to 

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let it go ahead unmarked and 
said it caused a lot of cause, a

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lot of controversy. 
But he did not speak. 

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That's good. 
That's the most important thing.

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I think that for, for people 
that don't remember the National

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Front and the British National 
Party that have become more 

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engaged recently, I think 
they're quite different to the 

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populist right of Nigel Farage, 
aren't they? 

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They were real fascist. 
They were the real deal, not not

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somebody that could develop into
being a fascist. 

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That they were the real deal 
weren't. 

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They no, they were the real deal
And and you know, we're talking 

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about sadly, a situation which 
we seem to be rolling back into.

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We thought that the days of 
people being physically 

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assaulted for the, the colour of
their skin had long gone. 

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But we think about those 
protests outside the hotels, 

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the, the refugee hotels and the 
way in which people are 

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literally looking to, to set 
them on fire and, and, and harm 

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people. 
And we think about the two 

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recent sexual assaults of of 
women specifically because of 

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their heritage. 
What? 

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What else did you do as the 
black students officer at the 

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National Union Students? 
That sounds like quite an an 

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important part of your political
awakening. 

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No, it, it, it was definitely 
one of the major things that we,

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we did is campaign for 
international students who 

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continue to be exploited and 
have huge amounts of, you know, 

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money taken from them in order 
to study in the UK and then get 

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treated appallingly whilst 
they're here. 

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But one of the things we did in 
terms of education is we found, 

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and this is some previous 
officers of mine who held the 

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same role as we found that if 
you had a typically African or 

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Asian sounding name, you were 
likely to get up to 20% lower 

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marks in your. 
And obviously that's across 2° 

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classifications makes a massive,
massive difference. 

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And what we did and, and, and 
people find this shocking now 

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that there wasn't universal 
anonymous marking right across 

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our academic institutions. 
It wasn't 100% of colleges and 

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universities were doing, weren't
doing this at the time. 

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So what we did is we got one 
particular university to trial 

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it for us whilst we continue to 
campaign elsewhere. 

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So they trialed it for a year 
and they found that the marks of

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students with African and Asian 
sounding names went up by 

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exactly 20%, which was great for
our campaign because we've 

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proved it. 
But also the marks of women went

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up by 9%, which shows that there
was a lot of misogyny at play. 

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And so that firmly made the case
for anonymous marking right 

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across the board, right across 
all, all universities and, and 

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for all different, different, 
different types of assessments. 

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So generations of women and 
black people have got better 

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grades because of Bell. 
Well, not, not just me as the 

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the entire campaign, because the
campaign started a few years 

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before. 
But no, I think we, we 

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definitely cemented that. 
And and yeah, whilst we right 

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across the NUS, as you, as you 
heard, we didn't always agree on

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this particular issue. 
We all did agree and and there 

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was a fantastic outcome as a 
result. 

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And we're seeing at the moment, 
and that makes myself, I would 

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love to see that translated 
into, in terms of anonymity into

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job applications, because 
there's a significant amount of 

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evidence that supports that as 
well, that women and, and, and 

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black and Asian people are not 
getting through to the interview

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stage just because they're being
passed over when people see 

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their, their, their ethnicity or
their gender in, in, in their 

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name. 
Yeah. 

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And when I first started working
local government, I was in 

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London in the 80s, first of all 
the Greater London Council. 

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And we got very used to the 
person's specification that you 

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determined beforehand that you 
fitted the candidate with. 

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And it was the first part of the
process to get to the interview 

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was a very factual based 
process. 

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And I feel that some of that's 
getting rolled back now. 

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And that was a real victory when
we started to have equal 

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opportunities, employment 
practice. 

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Yeah, definitely a huge victory 
and yeah, I worry, I worry about

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the future of the country at the
moment. 

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But then you, you managed to 
land eventually that a cracking 

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job for somebody with your, your
political background. 

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You ended up working, I think it
was in before 2019 as Diane 

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Abbott's chief of staff. 
How did you pull that off? 

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Because that's that's one hell 
of a job to get. 

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No, no, no. 
It was, it was, it was an 

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amazing one to do that. 
I went, I went to a couple of 

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places before then. 
I worked, I worked for the 

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National Assembly Against 
Racism. 

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I was, I was studying again, I 
was retraining to be a lawyer. 

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I worked for the Palestine 
Solidarity Campaign. 

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I worked in a nursery, I worked 
in a bar. 

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So I, I, I, I did a lot of 
different things in and amongst 

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studying. 
When I'd finished being the 

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black students officer and I'd 
come across Diane Abbott a 

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number of times, then she put 
herself forward to stand as the 

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Labour leader. 
She got on the ballot, didn't 

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she? 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

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That was a huge, huge fight for 
that. 

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So and you know what, it was 
actually a great time and it and

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for me, it was a great example 
of how an underdog in a 

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competition can control the 
narrative. 

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And she very much did. 
And I volunteered for her during

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that period of time. 
So I was able to go out a lot of

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the time assisting her when she 
was travelling to these 

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different house things. 
Because generally, unlike the 

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recent deputy leadership 
election, our elections are 

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meant to take longer to make 
sure that we have a, you know, 

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full democracy at play. 
And so I would go to all of 

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these different places and with 
Diana and hear how over the 

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different hustings, she had 
managed to pull all of the other

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candidates closer and closer to 
her way of thinking because she 

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saw the they saw the reaction 
that she was getting from from 

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the members. 
And we have to remember that no 

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matter what have happened, 
what's happened with leadership 

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over the past, the members of 
the Labour Party are generally a

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huge progressive base. 
And you know, I remember one of 

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them who actually was, it was a 
great one when someone just got 

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up and asked what the price of 
milk was. 

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And Diane was the only person 
that knew. 

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I think someone else came close,
but she was the only person that

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00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:31,600
knew what the price of milk was.
And this is this particular 

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00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,840
member was was sold that he was 
going to vote for us. 

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So yes, that's how I started 
2010. 

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00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:42,880
I worked for, I worked for Diane
leadership campaign and then 

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over those years I'm, you know, 
on whilst working other jobs and

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00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:49,560
studying, I would come and 
volunteer for her. 

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But then I think an incident 
happened in office where someone

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00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:56,800
got really sick and she didn't 
want them to feel like somebody 

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00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,240
would take over their whole job.
And she thought that they would 

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focus on getting better. 
And she said they could do that 

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00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,680
if there was someone they knew. 
So I was studying law at the 

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00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:06,520
time. 
And so I had a few hours. 

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00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,160
And Diane said, well, come in 
and help me with my policy 

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00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,040
correspondence. 
We share the same politics. 

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00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,760
So I won't be, I won't be 
teaching you to suck eggs. 

248
00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,400
And I can just get you to help 
respond to my constituents 

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00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,120
because something that Diane is 
very, very firm on and something

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00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:20,960
that I carry on in my own 
offices. 

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00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:25,240
If your constituents write to 
you, the least you can do is 

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00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:26,040
respond to them. 
A. 

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00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,040
Good lesson for Labour MPs, yes?
Absolutely. 

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00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:36,200
So I started there, I started 
part time volunteering whilst I 

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00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,920
was studying and then it just 
lead to another job and another 

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00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:41,960
job. 
And then Jeremy Corbyn became 

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00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,160
the leader of the Labour Party 
and she needed a political 

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00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:45,720
adviser for International 
Development. 

259
00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:50,720
So I took up that, then for 
health, then for Home Affairs. 

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00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:54,280
And then by that time I'd found 
myself running her, her office. 

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00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:58,440
And actually, and the title of 
chief of staff wasn't something 

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00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:03,520
that came about instantaneously.
My duties didn't change much 

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00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:07,560
between being a senior political
advisor and her chief of staff. 

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00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,080
What had happened is there was 
more of a need for me to do 

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00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,120
certain things and and being one
of the only black political 

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00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,720
advisors at the time, people 
weren't necessarily willing to 

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00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,160
talk to me. 
So we decided to change my title

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00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:26,600
so that they understood that I 
suppose I, I, I was due some 

269
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,000
respect in terms of handling 
certain situations on her 

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00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:30,840
behalf. 
Yeah, I can imagine that. 

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00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,040
I can imagine that. 
And and not only is this sort of

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00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:36,760
the undercurrent of, let's call 
it racism, there's also the the 

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00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,440
civil service is sort of 
notoriously hierarchical, isn't 

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00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:41,920
it? 
Notoriously so, yeah. 

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00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:43,960
So. 
So that that the title actually 

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00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,680
sounded sounded nice, but it was
more practicality than an actual

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00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,760
change in duties. 
And why shouldn't Diane have a 

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00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,280
chief of staff? 
I mean, essentially that's what 

279
00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,800
I was, yeah. 
So let's talk about Diana a 

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00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,200
little bit. 
I was in her constituency for a 

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00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,640
little while. 
I was also lucky enough to be in

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00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,160
Bernie's constituency as well 
when he was alive. 

283
00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:08,600
Bernie Grant, I think she became
an MP due to the self 

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00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:12,480
organization of black people in 
the Labour Party black sections 

285
00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:14,720
movement. 
And I was just wondering for 

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00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:20,000
you, as this new generation of 
black women MPs or black MPs, 

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00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:24,680
what what's that legacy of black
sections formed back in 1983 

288
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,240
that gave us the likes of Diane 
and Paul Bo Tang and Bernie 

289
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,760
Graham mean to you? 
Personally, it's hugely 

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00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:34,560
important and I think in, in 
order to, to, to, to distinguish

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00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,880
myself, I think we have to 
recognise to actually, it's not 

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00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:39,480
going to be important to all 
black and Asian. 

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00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,880
M PS Currently for some of them,
I think they'd rather not be 

294
00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,600
associated with it at all. 
But I, on the other hand, do 

295
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,400
very much understand that if it 
wasn't for that, we wouldn't 

296
00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,160
exist. 
I mean, there was literally a 

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00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:57,000
time when people thought that it
was completely ludicrous that 

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00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,440
people of, of, of, of colour, 
especially more than one at a 

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00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,400
time, let's say, could, could be
in the House, could be 

300
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:07,000
representatives in, in, in, in 
the House of Commons. 

301
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,480
And I mean, even when they were 
elected, hearing Diane talk 

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00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,560
about, they had to have, they 
had meetings to discuss what 

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00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,000
they were going to do about 
these people that had been 

304
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,920
elected and were coming into, 
into Parliament and how they 

305
00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:21,560
were going to deal with them. 
And you know what? 

306
00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:23,040
And the state even spied on 
them. 

307
00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,720
That's how much suspicion there 
was. 

308
00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,160
And if you remember, this was 
only about 38 years ago now. 

309
00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,760
It wasn't. 
It wasn't that long ago that it 

310
00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:37,120
was considered ludicrous or even
dangerous to have people. 

311
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:38,960
Does it look like me as Members 
of Parliament? 

312
00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:43,720
I'll never forget the moment of 
Bernie Grant's first speech in 

313
00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:47,400
parliament, dressed in his in 
traditional African dress. 

314
00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,480
It was just sort of oh, it was 
fantastic moment. 

315
00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:50,640
I. 
Mean. 

316
00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:52,920
Obviously I was only two at the 
time, but I've seen it since. 

317
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,880
Yeah, it was quite a moment. 
It was like he'd broken into the

318
00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,920
public Boys, Public school, boys
club and he just wasn't playing 

319
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,480
by the rules. 
It was, it was, it was 

320
00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,520
fantastic. 
Yeah, the the black section 

321
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,720
struggle. 
I don't think it was pretty 

322
00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,920
heavy at the time. 
There was a lot of hostility. 

323
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,839
Even from some sections of the 
left, which people would prefer 

324
00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:21,800
not to remember as if, as if it 
never happened. 

325
00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,800
But yeah, I know some people are
saying, well, why are we 

326
00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:28,480
focusing on this? 
And actually it's very divisive.

327
00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:32,240
And, and yeah, I think it's 
important to and, and obviously 

328
00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,360
when I say the left, I mean the 
left of the Labour Party. 

329
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,840
That's not not everybody was 
convinced by the idea of the 

330
00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,560
black sections, but black self 
organization is so important as 

331
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:46,080
a self organization for all 
other liberation struggles. 

332
00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,920
And that doesn't mean that we 
don't have allies and people 

333
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,040
that work with us because 
there's always and there's a 

334
00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:57,200
great need for that. 
But the importance of those that

335
00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:01,200
are experiencing these 
particular issues leading the 

336
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,920
way is as much a part of the 
campaign for liberation. 

337
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,240
Then you know, everything else 
that is done to get there. 

338
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:15,240
If those who are being 
disadvantaged cannot, can, 

339
00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:17,800
cannot be the ones to lead the 
way themselves, then it's not 

340
00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,200
liberation at all. 
Yeah, I completely. 

341
00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:22,960
I agree with that. 
And I remember, because I was 

342
00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,360
around at the time, that there 
was the militant tendency, which

343
00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:29,640
has now become the Socialist 
Party, of opposed black sections

344
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,160
as divisive. 
Yeah, and I believe they weren't

345
00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,680
necessarily the only ones, but. 
It was people, there was leading

346
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:40,000
figures in the Labour Party that
referred to it as segregation 

347
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,480
and apartheid, not antipod 
apartheid. 

348
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,360
That that black people should 
separately organise to bring 

349
00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:50,080
their voice back into the labour
movement was yeah, it's it, it 

350
00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:53,440
seems unbelievable now, but it 
it was at the time just like 

351
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,280
that. 
Anyway, let's bring us straight 

352
00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:01,720
up to date more recent stuff 
because the struggle never ends,

353
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,760
does it? 
Tell us your story because were 

354
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:10,120
you about your work with Diane 
when they when there was 

355
00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:14,240
attempts to try and deselect her
before the last general election

356
00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,080
and her removal of the party 
whip today? 

357
00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,160
What was your take as a an MP on
that? 

358
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,840
Well, for me obviously, and 
it's, and it's difficult to, to 

359
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,240
separate it from the personal 
for an, for, for an MP. 

360
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,560
Diane is, is very much a mentor 
and, and, and a mother figure to

361
00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,560
me. 
And whilst I, I, I don't work 

362
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,080
for her anymore, I always very 
much make the joke that once you

363
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,360
work for Diane Abbott, you 
always work for Diane Abbott. 

364
00:19:37,360 --> 00:19:44,080
And the idea that I suppose 
anybody could do that to her 

365
00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:49,480
made me deeply uncomfortable. 
It, it almost made me feel like 

366
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,760
the time I first walked into 
Parliament with her. 

367
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:55,840
And, and, and I, by this time I 
hadn't, I wasn't actually 

368
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,280
working for her at the time, but
we'd come from somewhere else. 

369
00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,400
This is, I think during her 
campaign. 

370
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,080
We worked, we walked into 
Parliament, I went through 

371
00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:03,960
security, obviously because I 
wasn't a pass holder at the 

372
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,960
time. 
And then she took me through and

373
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:10,960
we were in Portcullis House and 
we were making our way to the 

374
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,560
lift to get to her office. 
And a police officer came out of

375
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:21,080
nowhere and he said. 
He went, he, he pointed to Diana

376
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,080
and he said, where's your pass? 
Meanwhile, she had the pass in 

377
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,000
her hand and she showed it to 
him. 

378
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,760
And I was, I was, I was 
horrified. 

379
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,600
I thought to myself, I mean, you
know, I, I, I understand racism.

380
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:36,680
I understand discrimination. 
But this was Diane Abbott. 

381
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,040
And she had been a member of 
Parliament for nearly 25 years 

382
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,720
at that time. 
And you obviously know who she 

383
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,080
is because she's on television 
every single week. 

384
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:48,320
How on earth could you possibly 
think that it was it was OK to 

385
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,680
stop her in this way? 
And then he turned to me and 

386
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:53,640
said, who's she? 
And she's like, well, she's with

387
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,680
me. 
And so in shock, I walked 

388
00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,840
quietly to the lift before I I 
plucked up the courage to say, 

389
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,960
does that happen a lot? 
And she said more often than you

390
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:11,960
might think, The idea that I 
suppose such a someone who has 

391
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,000
contributed so much could be 
treated in such a way, and I 

392
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:20,080
suppose any group, even even my 
own, would think that the 

393
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,840
general public, in particular 
the black community, would stand

394
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:27,640
for it is beyond me. 
But that is, I think, the nature

395
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:29,640
of how things have gone at 
times. 

396
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:34,040
Yeah, like, famously, she 
received almost half of the 

397
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,760
abusive tweets sent to women MPs
when there was a study done, 

398
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,240
didn't she? 
What was it like working in 

399
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,920
Diane's office when you were 
getting that level of abuse? 

400
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,920
It must have been pretty grim. 
It was, it was quite grim and I 

401
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,200
remember how we got to a 
situation where she even said 

402
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:54,480
anything about it. 
I think we'd we'd just come from

403
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,400
a Labour Party conference and 
this was I suppose, what we had 

404
00:21:58,400 --> 00:21:59,720
to deal with. 
She'd gone to a Labour Party 

405
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,440
conference and I think we'd just
had the Brexit vote and Diane 

406
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,520
went to a left meeting. 
It was a left anti racist 

407
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,720
meeting actually, and it was 
full of people who probably 

408
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:11,280
would have actually voted for 
Brexit. 

409
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,640
And the police had just released
a report that said that people 

410
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,560
using Brexit as an excuse to 
commit some racist incidents. 

411
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:23,880
So Diane at this meeting, which 
we had recorded, said we, you 

412
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:27,480
know, you know, the, the vote 
has happened and I understand 

413
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,960
that many people in this room 
probably would have voted for 

414
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:31,960
Brexit. 
I know that you're not racist 

415
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,560
because, you know, we're here at
an anti racist meeting, she 

416
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:35,800
said. 
But the police have reported an 

417
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,880
increase in racist incidents and
said that people have been doing

418
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,800
this since Brexit. 
So we have to be very wary of 

419
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,200
what some people are using this 
to do. 

420
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,040
So the next day the Daily Mail 
in the Sun say Diane Abbott says

421
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,440
all 18, well however many 
million people that voted for 

422
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:56,760
Brexit are racist. 
The week afterwards we are hit 

423
00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:02,840
with just the most unrelenting 
abuse, people just sending 

424
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,560
things left, right and centre. 
At some point somebody called, 

425
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,440
called the phone and was 
shouting the N word down the 

426
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,960
phone and you know, we were 
blocking people left, right and 

427
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,040
centre. 
But we got to a point where I 

428
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,360
think, and then the Daily Mail 
and The Sun would do this often 

429
00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:20,160
and they would always end up 
being the ones that would 

430
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:24,440
attract the abuse. 
We got to a point where we 

431
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,000
blocked somebody. 
Someone went and found my 

432
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,560
personal e-mail to send. 
Diana threat a death threat. 

433
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,320
Not, not any general threat, a 
death threat. 

434
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,680
And by this time, myself and, 
and, and, and my colleague, we 

435
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:43,160
were, we, we were, we were 
beaten down and we, we, we just 

436
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,440
couldn't take it. 
And we went into Diane's office 

437
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,080
and we were like, you have to 
say something about this because

438
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,640
this is, it is, it is too much. 
It is too much to see. 

439
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,240
It's too much to read. 
We were, we were both so upset. 

440
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,680
I remember, and I think that was
the first instance where Diane 

441
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,480
wrote an article for the 
Guardian, I think, and she laid 

442
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,800
out exactly what happens. 
And then people started to do 

443
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:09,040
assessments of it and that's 
when they found out about her 

444
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:10,640
receiving half of all of the 
abuse. 

445
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:15,240
And, and, and I start with the 
media example because part of 

446
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,800
the reason why she receives 
abuse and everybody receives 

447
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,560
abuse, all MPs generally receive
some form of abuse just by, by, 

448
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,600
by nature of, of, of the job. 
But the reason why somebody like

449
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,440
her receives that level of abuse
is because the media have 

450
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,920
consistently and for decades 
kind of made out that she was 

451
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,480
fair game. 
I think 1 publication even wrote

452
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,720
at the time it's open season on 
Diane Abbott as if it was a 

453
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,320
normal thing. 
Yeah. 

454
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,280
So a lot of that has been 
perpetuated by then. 

455
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:50,800
People think that is acceptable 
to lay abuse and and and to to 

456
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,280
write various awful things and 
to threaten Diane and and and 

457
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,720
that's that was horrible to to 
to see. 

458
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,280
The thing that flashed through 
my mind when you were speaking 

459
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,160
there was that terrible 
description of the state of 

460
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,760
British politics has at times 
spilt over into the Labour Party

461
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,800
and what we read in the National
Executive Committee's Ford 

462
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,960
report suggests. 
But it's not only people on the 

463
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,000
far right that they've behaved 
in an appalling manner to Diane,

464
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,120
isn't it? 
No it isn't and that I think 

465
00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:20,200
there's nothing more appalling 
than the fact that a lot of 

466
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,240
those people have been protected
and have not paid the price for 

467
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,080
what they've done. 
Could you imagine if it had been

468
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,320
said about someone else or done 
to someone else? 

469
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,240
But like I said, again, people 
have this warped idea that it's 

470
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:36,120
OK to do this to her. 
And the the worst thing about it

471
00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:39,200
is Diane didn't ask to be the 
first black woman MP. 

472
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,240
In fact, there were two other 
black women that should have 

473
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,760
been elected, but were removed 
from, from having been selected,

474
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:50,280
were removed from, from 
contesting by the Labour leader 

475
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,920
at the time. 
She took that burden on 

476
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,520
unknowingly. 
And then she went on to continue

477
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,560
to stand firm in the politics 
that brought her there, not, not

478
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,440
diverting like some others and 
had and, and, and toeing the 

479
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:03,960
line. 
She stood firm. 

480
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,120
And obviously years later, some 
of the things that she she 

481
00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:09,040
argued for and about are the 
types of things that people 

482
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:13,200
accept as today. 
But yeah, she's paid the price 

483
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,160
for doing that. 
She's paid the price, but I'll 

484
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:20,840
tell you what I two things I saw
the people of Hackney on the 

485
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:26,200
steps of Hackney Town Hall when 
her position as an MP, Brandon, 

486
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:31,400
how many British MPs would have 
hundreds and hundreds of people 

487
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,600
turn up at the town hall to 
demand that they be reinstated? 

488
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:40,120
I think that's absolutely right.
The love she's held in and I saw

489
00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:43,920
her talking about her book at 
the Cambridge Literary Festival.

490
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,200
Her session ended up with a 
standing ovation from everybody 

491
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,840
in the room. 
So she's suffered a lot, but my 

492
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,000
goodness, she's admired as well.
She's admired. 

493
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,920
Yeah, No, she isn't. 
And you know the one thing that 

494
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,800
consoles me about those horrible
people, and there are too many 

495
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,640
of them to name. 
And it's just that actually, no 

496
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,120
one's ever going to know who 
they are. 

497
00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:05,440
They thought or they think they 
are so important right now. 

498
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:10,120
But you know, long after Dianes 
gone, they'll write books, 

499
00:27:10,120 --> 00:27:12,240
they'll make films. 
She will be remembered as 

500
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,800
someone who made history. 
And these people are just gonna 

501
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:19,720
be footnotes in that history. 
Nobody's gonna give a damn about

502
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,160
who they are. 
So treading in the likes of 

503
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,640
Diane's footsteps. 
How? 

504
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:26,280
Well, there's only one Diane. 
How? 

505
00:27:27,360 --> 00:27:31,760
How does Bell become the MP for 
Clapham and Brixton in 2019? 

506
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:33,920
What's the what's the story 
behind that? 

507
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,920
In my local area there was a 
young young black man, younger 

508
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:39,480
at the time. 
Obviously we were all younger 

509
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:43,600
then, standing to be the new MP 
and his name was Chuka Amuna and

510
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,520
I happened to run into him at a 
progressive London conference. 

511
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,520
That was the conferences that 
Ken Livingstone used to organise

512
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,200
during that period of time when 
he wasn't the Mayor of London to

513
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,000
keep London's progressive base 
together. 

514
00:27:55,360 --> 00:27:57,720
So OK, OK, this is good guy on 
the left. 

515
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,800
And, you know, that was a time 
when we were worried about the 

516
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,160
election and, and we had every 
cause to be because obviously 

517
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:08,080
that's that's about when things 
started to go wrong. 

518
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,040
And, you know, we lost, we lost 
the country. 

519
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,920
And I remember promising that I 
would go out campaigning for 

520
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:13,600
him. 
So I did. 

521
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,440
And you know, up until that time
I had suspicions of the Labour 

522
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,480
students having come through 
student politics. 

523
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,080
I was very upset with the Labour
Party, the war in Iraq, student 

524
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,440
fees and these things. 
But you know, these things had 

525
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:29,400
got to me. 
But, but, but generally my 

526
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,440
family had always voted Labour. 
I, I had always voted Labour. 

527
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,960
I remember when the first Labour
MP was elected in my area, I was

528
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,800
just five years old and even I 
was roped into, into that kind 

529
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,880
of campaigning. 
My mum made me do leafleting 

530
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,280
before we could go to the park. 
That, that, that that's, that's 

531
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:48,760
I suppose when my campaigning 
started. 

532
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:54,360
But who I was again in 2010, 
leafleting, because, you know, 

533
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,800
the country was at was at stake.
And obviously, whilst we were 

534
00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,760
more likely to win in our area, 
you know, we had a new candidate

535
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:01,880
and things were going to be a 
problem. 

536
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:03,480
But I thought it's occasion. 
But you know, young progressive 

537
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,400
guy much like me. 
And I remember speaking to some 

538
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,280
of the members, I was like, oh, 
some of these, you know, Labour 

539
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,320
perhaps a little bit too right 
for me. 

540
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,600
And but then I, I got paired 
with one, one young woman who 

541
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,880
was actually involved in the 
student movement like myself. 

542
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,680
And it was, and it was funny 
because she had some of the same

543
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,280
battles that I had had with some
sections of student politics. 

544
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,000
And I, I, and she was saying why
haven't you joined yet? 

545
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,480
And I explained to her why that 
I wasn't sure and I didn't 

546
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,040
necessarily be tied down and I 
didn't agree with everything. 

547
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,360
And she reminded me, and this is
before I got to go out and see 

548
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,880
that progressive base of Labour 
Party right across the country. 

549
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,000
The majority of Labour members 
were actually like her and that 

550
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,360
the majority of Labour members 
agreed with the things that I 

551
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:49,840
was saying. 
She was like, well, if people 

552
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,240
like Jeremy Corbyn and and John 
McDonnell and Diane Abbott can 

553
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,320
be MPs in the Labour Party, why 
can't you? 

554
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:56,920
Like, we need to be part of the 
fight back. 

555
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:01,960
So that night I went home and I 
joined years later, working for 

556
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:03,960
Diane. 
People kept asking me if I 

557
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,160
wanted to stand to be an MP. 
And I thought to myself, if 

558
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,240
you've worked for Diane and 
you're a black woman on the 

559
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,120
left, why would you even think 
that was a good idea? 

560
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,960
If you could only be a certain 
way, you knew, you would know 

561
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:16,760
what level of abuse you were 
going to get. 

562
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,640
And there are people that 
actually wanted me to, to, to, 

563
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:25,920
having campaigned for this 
person to try and remove them at

564
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,000
the time. 
And I, I was absolutely, I would

565
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,920
never, I would never do that. 
I may not have agreed with him, 

566
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,440
but actually, I understand that 
there were, there were issues of

567
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,160
black representation right 
across the country. 

568
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,640
And and no way would I be 
looking to try and remove 

569
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:45,040
another black MP and I removed. 
Himself, though, didn't. 

570
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,120
He he did remove himself, yeah, 
because. 

571
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,920
And I said, well, you know, if 
he wasn't there, fair enough, 

572
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,720
but he is. 
And then just be careful what 

573
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,200
you say, I guess, because in a 
couple of months later he wasn't

574
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,560
there and I. 
Change UK, he joined. 

575
00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:59,080
Change UK. 
Change. 

576
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,360
Became a Liberal. 
Then became a liberal and then 

577
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,840
left, left the area. 
So my home and I've lived here 

578
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,560
my whole life. 
I'm, I'm speaking from here, 

579
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:14,080
which is where I am. 
And I suppose the question 

580
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:15,400
became why? 
Why not me? 

581
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,840
I had spent years working for an
MP and as far as I'm concerned, 

582
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:23,520
learnt the best way in which to,
to represent my, my constituents

583
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,480
and, and, and the time perhaps 
had had come. 

584
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,040
So all of those issues of doubt 
and actually a lot of fear. 

585
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,480
The main thing was fear. 
If there's anything that was 

586
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:34,920
going to stop me, it was, Oh my 
gosh, you're going to get abused

587
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,640
so much. 
But I suppose fear is not a 

588
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,120
reason not to do something. 
Also, Diane Abbott was very, 

589
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,720
very encouraging. 
In fact, she was over 

590
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,760
encouraging. 
There was one time when I was 

591
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,160
delaying over sending something 
in and she said I'm going to 

592
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,200
come to your house and push send
for you. 

593
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,800
So she's she's the most she's. 
Got a bit of a record of that. 

594
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,920
I've heard stories of when 
Jeremy was the chicken Coon. 

595
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,480
They were trying to get him to 
resign, blocking the door, not 

596
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:03,920
letting. 
You know The funny thing about 

597
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:05,320
that? 
That didn't actually happen. 

598
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:06,440
Oh, didn't it? 
I've heard. 

599
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,960
No. 
So it was some somebody, some 

600
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,640
some journalists said they heard
that this is what she was doing.

601
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,080
And it was, it's funny because 
there was, we were in our 

602
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,640
office, members of her staff in 
her office, and we were watching

603
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:19,840
this on the TV and the 
journalist said, Diane Abbott is

604
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,760
literally blocking the door. 
And one of my colleagues jumped 

605
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,320
up and she was like, where? 
I was like, where are you going?

606
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:30,000
She said, oh, my gosh, you know,
they're probably pushing and 

607
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,480
shoving Diane, we need to get 
down there and help her hold the

608
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,240
door. 
I said, don't be ridiculous. 

609
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,760
There is absolutely no way that 
she's doing this. 

610
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:38,320
Like, why don't we just call her
and see where she is? 

611
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:39,600
So I called her and you know 
what? 

612
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,040
She was having lunch on the 
terrace. 

613
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,040
And this is this is what they're
saying about you. 

614
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,040
I think it was the BBC actually.
So I said, could you take a 

615
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,240
selfie of yourself? 
Could you take a selfie and post

616
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:51,920
it? 
And she did take a selfie, but 

617
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,760
unfortunately, she wasn't too 
well versed in taking a selfie 

618
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,320
as it kind of cut off half her 
face. 

619
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,720
But basically she posted online 
that she was she was having 

620
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,520
lunch on the terrace and she 
didn't know what was happening 

621
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,440
in Jeremy's office. 
So yeah, yeah, it. 

622
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,000
And that's what I mean when it 
comes to stories about Diane, 

623
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,920
they can reach so far before 
we've even verified the truth. 

624
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,440
And years later, people who can 
be asking questions about 

625
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,480
because there's still some 
people that believe that she 

626
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,640
said that thing about Brexit 
and, and clearly there's still 

627
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,200
some people that believe that 
she was actually holding, 

628
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,920
holding a door. 
Well, I was one of them until 

629
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,120
you put me right. 
Although come to think about it,

630
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,800
saying that John Mcdonnell's 
story is he chucked them all out

631
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,840
when they came to see Jeremy. 
That would. 

632
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,920
I don't know. 
About holding the door if John 

633
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:39,160
was chucking him out. 
Well, Dan wasn't there to tell 

634
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:45,720
me what actually happened. 
And so you arrive in Parliament 

635
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,720
and you certainly set out your 
political store when you said in

636
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,920
your maiden speech to 
Parliament, let's address the 

637
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,520
historic justices of the British
Empire. 

638
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,800
You've got to tell us about that
speech, Bell, because you 

639
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,160
weren't pulling your punches. 
You're supposed to make a a 

640
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,840
local speech that isn't 
particularly controversial, 

641
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,440
where you congratulate your 
speed predecessor and talk about

642
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,360
how wonderful your constituency 
is. 

643
00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:13,120
And you were talking about the 
historic injustices of the 

644
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:13,960
British. 
Yeah, but. 

645
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,360
You know, I did all of that. 
And then I talked about the 

646
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:18,880
historic injustices of the 
British. 

647
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:24,159
I did leave time for it. 
And I remember I was, I was very

648
00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:28,880
nervous about doing it and I 
spent a lot of time and as as 

649
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,080
Diane liked to say, if you were 
going to do this for me, you 

650
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,639
would have done it by now. 
I'm like, yes, that's that's 

651
00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:36,360
true. 
And I spent a lot of time 

652
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,320
dithering about what it was 
going to be. 

653
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,800
And I swear I didn't actually go
to Diane and speak to her. 

654
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,400
And, you know, we went over, you
meant to talk about your 

655
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:48,080
constituency, say something nice
about your predecessor, which it

656
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:49,760
did. 
And, and, she said. 

657
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,400
But most importantly, you're 
meant to tell them who you are. 

658
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:54,239
I don't think that's the 
official bit. 

659
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:55,440
I think that's the no one at 
school. 

660
00:34:57,720 --> 00:34:59,400
She's like, you're meant to tell
them who you are. 

661
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:04,080
And she was like I she gave her 
maiden speech on a really 

662
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:05,600
horrible Immigration Bill 
actually. 

663
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,000
And, and, and she's well, you 
know, you don't have to make it 

664
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,280
to, you don't have to tune it 
with what's being debated at 

665
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:14,680
this time. 
You do have to make some 

666
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,920
reference to it, but obviously 
it helps if it's in line with 

667
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:19,960
what you're saying then. 
So I was looking at what debates

668
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,800
were coming up and one of them 
was on Global Britain. 

669
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,720
And it was basically, it was 
meant to be the Tories having a 

670
00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:29,960
great time and talking about 
what a great thing they've done 

671
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,440
by delivering Brexit and, and 
pushing Brexit forward. 

672
00:35:34,720 --> 00:35:37,600
And obviously we hadn't made the
final vote. 

673
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:39,080
No, we hadn't made the final 
votes on it. 

674
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,560
But but what what a great thing 
it was going to be that we were 

675
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:45,800
moving forward with Brexit and 
how we were going to be global 

676
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,480
Britain. 
And it sounded to me like they 

677
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,800
were going to be talking about 
empire and, and, and harkening 

678
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:53,600
back to those days of the 
British Empire. 

679
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:58,640
And I thought, I don't have any 
of this outrageous. 

680
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,800
And so I'll and so that that 
that was what spread on on my 

681
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:05,520
speech. 
The point from Diane to say, 

682
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,360
tell them who you are. 
But also in making reference to 

683
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,880
what was being debated that day,
that there's absolutely no way 

684
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:18,640
that we can continue to think 
and feel as if we are above the 

685
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,160
rest of the world and, and, and 
not think about addressing some 

686
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,040
of the the things that we have 
done in the past. 

687
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:30,680
And by 2021 you'd become what 
the Patchwork charity called the

688
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,880
newcomer Member of Parliament 
2021. 

689
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,560
So obviously make it a bit of an
impact. 

690
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,360
It was great. 
It was great to win that award 

691
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,240
at the time. 
We'll be back with Belle in a 

692
00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:45,240
moment, but first, if you're 
enjoying the show, please can 

693
00:36:45,240 --> 00:36:48,720
you subscribe on YouTube, Sub 
Stack, or your favorite podcast 

694
00:36:48,720 --> 00:36:50,840
platform? 
You can delve into our back 

695
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,120
catalog of previous shows. 
Our guests in the past have 

696
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,960
included Belle's Socialist 
Campaign Group colleagues 

697
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,240
Richard Bergen and John 
McDonnell. 

698
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,720
Listener numbers for the Labour 
Left podcast are steadily rising

699
00:37:02,720 --> 00:37:06,640
and you can help us reach an 
even wider audience by liking 

700
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and following the podcast. 
Wherever you watch or listen to 

701
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,800
the show, please please, please 
share it with your friends on 

702
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,120
your socials and your local 
WhatsApp groups as it gets the 

703
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,680
podcast to a wider audience. 
In our next episode we'll be 

704
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,080
talking to Ted Hamm from New 
York who is the author of the 

705
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,040
excellent new book Run Zoran 
Run. 

706
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,440
Join us to take a look inside 
Mandani's inspiring campaign to 

707
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:34,000
become New York's first 
Democratic Socialist Mayor. 

708
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,440
Ted will be bringing us some pre
Christmas cheer from across the 

709
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,800
Atlantic as we explore the big 
question, how can the left win 

710
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,080
again? 
Finally, check out Labour Hub 

711
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:48,200
for all the best news from the 
Labour left on the Internet. 

712
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:53,160
Now back to Bell to hear how she
joined the Socialist Campaign 

713
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:55,320
Group. 
So when you joined Parliament 

714
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,560
you you were straight into the 
Socialist Campaign Group. 

715
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,720
How did it feel to enter what 
Peter Mandelson once called the 

716
00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:07,680
Sealed Tomb? 
Why did you join? 

717
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:10,960
Well, do you know it just so 
happened is that the Labour 

718
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:12,920
Party conference before the 
election? 

719
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,880
I was just a candidate at the 
time. 

720
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,880
I actually got to chair the 
session at conference. 

721
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,200
So the rally, the Socialist 
Campaign Group rally, that was 

722
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,920
my first, my first gig as as the
group even before I've got made 

723
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:28,200
a member of Parliament, which 
was great. 

724
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,680
I got to. 
Not usually a short gig from my 

725
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:32,200
memory. 
Because they all speak, don't 

726
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,680
they? 
Because I was used to joke it 

727
00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:37,480
was the longest fringe meeting 
at Labour Party conference. 

728
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,880
But, you know, it's the longest 
fringe meeting, but it's also 

729
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:45,240
the most invigorating one. 
It's the one that is towards the

730
00:38:45,240 --> 00:38:47,960
end of conference. 
And even if, you know, we've 

731
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,280
been bashed about by amendment 
by the end of that rally, I 

732
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,200
always felt like we're here for 
a reason. 

733
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,560
And I got to chair it that first
time. 

734
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:00,080
And, and I suppose from then it 
is to me, it was very clear when

735
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,560
my where my politics, where I'm 
not against people, you know, 

736
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,800
having different views across 
across the party. 

737
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,120
I mean, we touched on West 
Streeting earlier. 

738
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,360
I mean, I believe that there's a
place for both me and ways in 

739
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,280
the Labour Party. 
We don't even necessarily have 

740
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,960
to agree. 
We we just have to agree that 

741
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,240
we're Labour and that when the 
time comes, yes, we may disagree

742
00:39:21,240 --> 00:39:25,800
with each other within the 
party, but actually we should 

743
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:30,000
spend more time fighting people 
outside of the party than each 

744
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,160
other. 
I agree with that, but having 

745
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:36,360
read a number of books recently 
about the Stammer years and 

746
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:40,200
Labour together, I'm not sure 
that that ethos is a view that's

747
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:44,400
universally shared. 
No, no, it's I I can, I can 

748
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:48,400
imagine it isn't one that's 
universally shared, however, No,

749
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:50,120
I definitely, I definitely still
think it's true. 

750
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,960
I just, I just wish when I think
about what's happening at the 

751
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,040
moment and actually when I hear 
like you'll see people in 

752
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:02,000
different articles, perhaps I've
said something at a rally or 

753
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:03,480
something. 
And then you've got someone, a 

754
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,760
Labour NEC member or a senior 
Labour source making comments 

755
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:11,240
about something that I've said. 
And I think to myself, really, I

756
00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:14,520
think you should give just more 
effort to perhaps reform or 

757
00:40:14,720 --> 00:40:18,280
actually some of the left 
parties that are coming up and, 

758
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,080
and, and challenging us at the 
moment. 

759
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,880
I and by no means. 
Is the biggest problem and, and 

760
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:28,200
the focus that we have 
internally is so disruptive. 

761
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,320
I really do think we need to, we
need to look at the challenges 

762
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:33,760
at hand and actually we, we, 
we're in government now, we can 

763
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,320
actually deliver for people. 
We need to stop making excuses 

764
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:38,800
and get on and do it. 
And lots of constituency Labour 

765
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,880
parties and a lot of branches 
that animosity and nastiness 

766
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:46,640
between the different rings of 
the party is, is, is not 

767
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,360
present. 
It certainly is in the higher 

768
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,760
echelons of the Parliamentary 
Labour Party, but it's. 

769
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:54,680
In your average. 
Constituency we all, we all rub 

770
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,240
along and have a bit of an 
argument and go down the pub 

771
00:40:57,240 --> 00:40:58,640
afterwards. 
Yeah. 

772
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,360
And and that's fine. 
And we need to be, we need to do

773
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:06,320
more of that because at the 
moment our membership, our 

774
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,680
membership is dropping. 
And what are we without our 

775
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,120
members? 
Exactly. 

776
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,560
So you're in parliament, you've 
made your maiden speech and and 

777
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:17,760
then Jeremy Corbyn appoints you 
when you've been there barely 

778
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:22,960
months on the 24th of January 
2020 you you become the shadow 

779
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,680
minister for immigration. 
It was a short lived rain, but 

780
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:28,520
what did you get up to? 
While you were doing it, you 

781
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,560
haven't. 
Got rid of you on the 9th of 

782
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,480
April, didn't it? 
It was always expected to be a 

783
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,600
short lived rain and I think, 
well, not that was part of it, 

784
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,920
but I had worked on the the 
brief with Diane. 

785
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,080
So I was familiar with the 
policy, but also I suppose 

786
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:46,360
compared to other new members of
Parliament, I was familiar with 

787
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:48,800
Parliament. 
So it's one of those, well, what

788
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:50,920
you can, you can do it. 
And I think part of the issues 

789
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:55,880
we had a lot of anti immigration
things coming up from the Tories

790
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,200
immediately, Jamaica, 
deportation flights, charter 

791
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,640
flights, and you know, a lot of 
awful stuff about asylum 

792
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:04,440
seekers. 
So I think it was just we need 

793
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:06,880
someone that can deal with it 
now who already he knows what 

794
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,280
we're going to ask you, who's 
not going to be too nervous 

795
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,680
about getting up and speaking at
the dispatch box. 

796
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,080
And I think that that just made 
the most, most sense. 

797
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,320
I had to face off against the 
home secretary at the time, 

798
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:23,800
Preeti Patel, a couple of times.
It was, it was an interesting, 

799
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,360
it was an interesting period. 
But yeah. 

800
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:28,760
Yeah, you're going to take the 
anti racist and class struggle 

801
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:30,760
into Parliament. 
You want to face off against the

802
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:31,920
likes of Priti Patel? 
Don't. 

803
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,080
You you know what, that day was 
great. 

804
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:36,160
Actually the well, the first 
time I did it was great because 

805
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,800
I think it because it was my 
first time giving a full speech.

806
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,240
Both Diane and Jeremy made sure 
they came into the chamber and 

807
00:42:43,240 --> 00:42:48,040
they sat either side of me and 
they were they they shouted back

808
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:53,400
at her as many times. 
So, so what's it like with the, 

809
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,960
you know, the stalwarts and 
veterans in the campaign group? 

810
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:58,720
How? 
How much support and what's your

811
00:42:58,720 --> 00:43:01,520
relationship with them? 
The ones that have been there 

812
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,560
and seen it all, What's it like 
working with them? 

813
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:07,920
Well, we, we meet every week and
as many of us try and get there 

814
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,320
as possible, depending on, on, 
on schedules and travelling 

815
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,520
everything. 
But no, I mean, I mean, it's 

816
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,360
good And, and as I said with 
every single group, no one's 

817
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:18,680
going to agree on absolutely 
everything all the time. 

818
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:20,720
But I think the most important 
thing is that we're able to talk

819
00:43:20,720 --> 00:43:26,600
about it and and support each 
other because it does feel it 

820
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:30,120
does feel hostile at times. 
Talking about hostility, you had

821
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,800
another role, didn't you, that 
you managed to get sacked from, 

822
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,200
which was the Ghanaian trade 
envoy, which you see, Yeah. 

823
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:41,400
Is there any other, how many 
other Ghanaian MPs, dissenters 

824
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,680
there in Parma? 
You seem pretty suited for that 

825
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:45,640
role, but you were. 
Sacked. 

826
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,040
No, no, I did, I did, I did. 
Well, I did seem pretty suited 

827
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:53,160
for that role and it was funny 
because obviously I know what I 

828
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:56,360
am like. 
So when I was offered the role, 

829
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:02,200
which I might add is not a 
ministerial role, I was I first 

830
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:05,640
question I asked was, do I have 
to brave myself? 

831
00:44:11,720 --> 00:44:17,640
The chief whip who's used used 
to my my frankness, tried not to

832
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:18,800
laugh. 
And he said, you know, you're 

833
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:20,240
not meant to break the whip 
bell. 

834
00:44:20,720 --> 00:44:25,480
But no, it's not, it's not one 
bound by it's not one bound by 

835
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:29,880
collective responsibility. 
However, do remember that the 

836
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,280
party giveth and the party 
taketh away. 

837
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:35,880
And I said, well, if I don't 
have to behave myself, then 

838
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:36,960
that's fine. 
That'll be great. 

839
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,200
I don't mind being the Ghana 
trade envoy. 

840
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:43,520
I, I chair the APG on Ghana and 
I'm I'm really interested in. 

841
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,160
What's the SPG? 
Oh, the APPG, the All Party 

842
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:48,520
parliamentary group on Ghana. 
So I'm really interested in 

843
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:51,400
doing things and it's the, the 
country of my family's heritage 

844
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,680
and, and I don't mind visiting 
more often in, in, in that 

845
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,240
particular role. 
So I I took up the role in and 

846
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:02,200
hit the ground running, but it 
was, it was taken away. 

847
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,120
As they said, the the government
giveth and the government taketh

848
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:09,000
away. 
It seems it seems that the 

849
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,200
height of pettiness you you vote
for a policy which is opposed by

850
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:16,360
the overwhelming majority of 
Labour Party members and you get

851
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:18,520
removed as the Ghanaian trade 
envoy. 

852
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:22,920
You know, it tells us tells us 
so much about the disciplinary 

853
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:26,240
culture of the in the Labour 
Party today that that little 

854
00:45:26,240 --> 00:45:29,520
story I. 
Mean, yeah, I didn't think it, 

855
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:33,000
didn't think it was necessary. 
But as I said, I mean, to me it 

856
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,160
is what it is. 
It's it's theirs to give. 

857
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,640
They don't want me to have it. 
They don't want me to have it. 

858
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:41,800
We we move on. 
Well, let's move on to the 

859
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,680
deputy leadership campaign like 
we've all heard the story of, 

860
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:50,560
and so many different angles and
versions of, of how Jeremy found

861
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:54,320
himself thrust forward back in 
2015. 

862
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:56,080
You know, it's pretty much the 
same. 

863
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,360
How did it happen to you? 
How did you get pushed forward 

864
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:03,480
to the front of the queue on the
8th of September 2025? 

865
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:06,800
On the 8th of September it it 
well, it's socialist campaign 

866
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,240
group decision. 
There was a lot of discussions 

867
00:46:09,240 --> 00:46:10,720
beforehand. 
Obviously one thing that we 

868
00:46:10,720 --> 00:46:14,400
didn't use as much when it was 
Jeremy was or did we use at all.

869
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:19,600
Did we have WhatsApp back in 20?
I can't remember but but there 

870
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:23,520
were a lot of discussions on the
group and then we had a meeting 

871
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:24,960
in person but there were loads 
of votes going on. 

872
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:27,080
So it was going all around. 
So a lot of it was eventually 

873
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:33,440
decided via via group. 
Majority of members agreed and 

874
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,120
that was that. 
I mean, we knew it was going to 

875
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:39,400
be, it was going to be 3 days of
making the case. 

876
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,280
And that, as we have done in the
past in terms of the Socialist 

877
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:44,800
Campaign Group, whoever it is 
that is selected with the 

878
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:48,640
support of everybody else, makes
the case as much as possible and

879
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:52,080
most importantly, tries to pull 
whoever the other candidates are

880
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:55,560
in the right direction. 
Yeah, well, John McDonnell, 

881
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:57,720
who's one of the people I've 
recently interviewed on the 

882
00:46:57,720 --> 00:47:00,880
podcast, referred to the whole 
process as a statue. 

883
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:03,800
But you may no. 
Might disagree with John 

884
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,600
McDonnell. 
I, I think he's nailed it. 

885
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:11,400
You, you took for a pretty 
effective three day campaign. 

886
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:16,120
You talked earlier about 
shifting the agenda by actually 

887
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:18,400
having a voice, even if it's 
only three days. 

888
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:21,160
So what kind of policies and 
arguments were you putting 

889
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:23,160
forward in that that three day 
campaign? 

890
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:27,240
Three days, three days. 
Three key things were, and I 

891
00:47:27,240 --> 00:47:29,760
even got them to repeat the 
phrase, which was interesting. 

892
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,960
We can't out reform reform, you 
know, we're going to have to 

893
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,720
focus on doing what we do best, 
just being Labour and the 

894
00:47:38,720 --> 00:47:39,880
others. 
Is that the focus on the 

895
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,360
membership? 
Because I genuinely agree that 

896
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:44,400
if we listen to our members, we 
don't get it wrong. 

897
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,000
I mean, way back when, if we had
listened to our members on Iraq,

898
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:48,680
we wouldn't have gone down that 
road. 

899
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:52,360
And more recently on the benefit
cuts, if we'd listen to our 

900
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:53,720
members, we wouldn't have gone 
down that road. 

901
00:47:53,720 --> 00:47:55,960
And our our members know what 
they're talking about. 

902
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,760
And then I think the final one 
was more specifically on the two

903
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:03,600
child benefit cap. 
Majoritarian labour policies 

904
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,720
amongst the membership. 
Basically and I think because of

905
00:48:06,720 --> 00:48:10,400
the reaction, I suppose that 
what I was saying was getting, I

906
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,560
think they just picked up 
quickly that that's that's what 

907
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:15,520
you say. 
My favorite moment, and I'd like

908
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:20,480
to show the the watches and 
lists as a clip, was your unique

909
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:24,240
clarity amongst the different 
candidates on the question of 

910
00:48:24,240 --> 00:48:27,040
Peter Mandelson. 
Let's have a listen to what you 

911
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:30,440
had to say on Channel 4 News. 
Given, as you pointed out, you 

912
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,320
know, Lord Mandelson has been 
sacked as ambassador, is it 

913
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,640
right that he continues to sit 
on the Labour benches in the 

914
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,360
Lords when he returns? 
I think there are going to be a 

915
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,800
lot of questions about that. 
And just with with all things, 

916
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,080
there should be some sort of 
investigation. 

917
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:47,480
You know, I have colleagues who 
have who don't have the whip. 

918
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,840
They do not have the whip for 
simply how they voted and voting

919
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:53,680
in line with their conscience or
voting in line with their 

920
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:57,640
constituents wanted. 
I think what's happened in this 

921
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:00,800
case is, is is far worse when 
you talk about questions. 

922
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:04,320
So just to answer this one, 
should Lord Mandelson have the 

923
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,720
whip withdrawn in the Lord? 
Should he lose his seat in the 

924
00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:10,320
Lord, Should he be suspended? 
I think as with everybody, when 

925
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,920
something like this arises, 
there should be an 

926
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:15,520
investigation. 
And usually when there's an 

927
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:18,000
investigation, somebody doesn't 
have a whip, the whip whilst 

928
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,680
there's an investigation. 
So yeah, whilst they suspend 

929
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:24,400
him, yeah, well, I mean that's 
that's that's what usually 

930
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:26,880
happens to everybody else. 
And if we are going to be 

931
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,760
applying things fairly, then 
that should probably be the 

932
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:33,200
case. 
Thanks so much Bell, for 

933
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:37,440
speaking for the overwhelming 
majority of Labour members and 

934
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:41,040
stating the bleeding obvious. 
Why was he ever appointed? 

935
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:42,560
What was Starmer thinking? 
What? 

936
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:44,320
What was your view at that 
point? 

937
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:46,600
I, I mean everybody, well, not 
everybody. 

938
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:49,880
A lot of people, let's say a lot
of people thought it was strange

939
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:53,280
because obviously there there is
and people make these 

940
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:55,240
appointments and they try and 
make sure that they appoint 

941
00:49:55,240 --> 00:49:57,360
someone who's not going to get 
them into trouble later down the

942
00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:58,400
line. 
In terms of things that you 

943
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:00,240
could dig up and, and obviously 
for someone like Peter 

944
00:50:00,240 --> 00:50:03,560
Mandelson, that there's stuff 
that everybody knows that 

945
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:07,240
somebody might pick up on. 
The things that got him into 

946
00:50:07,240 --> 00:50:10,360
trouble this time were things 
that, that, that were revealed. 

947
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:13,960
And, and to be honest in, in 
this particular instance, I 

948
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:16,040
would say no leader is an 
island. 

949
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:18,240
So I'm not even sure it was 
entirely his decision. 

950
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,760
But it was really striking. 
You were the only one of the 

951
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:25,920
candidates that was immediately 
clear on what the not just the 

952
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:28,760
majority Labour members, but the
vast majority of the British 

953
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:32,440
public could see was obvious. 
It was a lovely moment. 

954
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:35,560
I'm glad you can. 
Check on the television saying 

955
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:39,440
as it is it was great. 
And So what you mentioned you 

956
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:42,640
work for Palestine Solidarity 
Campaign, but you mentioned the 

957
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:45,040
Gaza and Palestine in your 
campaign. 

958
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:47,520
Do you just want to set out what
your stance was on that as well?

959
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:48,840
Oh yeah, actually that was 
another point. 

960
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,120
I mean, again, this is talking 
about what the membership were 

961
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:54,400
were saying if we'd listened to 
the membership on Gaza from the 

962
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,720
beginning instead of I suppose 
having to dragged, be dragged to

963
00:50:57,720 --> 00:51:01,280
the position we are in now. 
And I do remind people that we 

964
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:05,360
are in a much better position 
than we were before. 

965
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:10,000
And that has been due to the 
sheer tenacity of campaigning 

966
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,400
that that people have done, but 
obviously also the appalling 

967
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,880
that situation. 
We shouldn't, it shouldn't have 

968
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:19,760
taken us that long to get there.
We have to accept that what's 

969
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:23,120
happening is a genocide and now 
we've got a ceasefire in place 

970
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:27,440
that's barely being adhered to, 
which is a huge, a huge problem.

971
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:31,200
And the idea that we have sat 
there and watched 10s of 

972
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:36,080
thousands of people be 
slaughtered whilst we've watched

973
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:41,040
it live, whilst we've watched it
on ongoing on television, has to

974
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:44,800
make us feel sick. 
So the three day campaign I 

975
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:48,400
think has raised your profile. 
Are you happy to be invited to 

976
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:51,120
come along and speak at Labour 
Party meetings in the 

977
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:53,720
constituencies if you're asked? 
Yeah, absolutely. 

978
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:57,440
It's always easier if they're 
ones that aren't too far away, I

979
00:51:57,440 --> 00:51:59,400
think. 
I think it's important to be 

980
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:03,200
able to speak to as many members
and I, I genuinely recognise 

981
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:07,480
that they're not as many of us 
in, in, in, in the campaign 

982
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:11,160
group, but there are a number of
local parties that are very much

983
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:14,800
of the same view. 
And it's important that they're 

984
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:17,120
active because actually, when it
comes down to it, who's going to

985
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:18,840
go and campaign? 
I mean, this is one of the 

986
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:21,880
reasons why I actually stood for
the deputy leadership, not with 

987
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:24,200
any grand ideas of winning 
because I'm not particularly 

988
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:28,720
ambitious person in that sense. 
But I had to prove to myself 

989
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:33,040
that there were, that the Labour
Party still had that progressive

990
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:35,560
pace, but then also on proof 
proving that that there was a 

991
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:40,040
progressive place, send a signal
to them that we are still here. 

992
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,200
And it really matters to us in 
the constituencies because I'm 

993
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,760
sure I speak for many people. 
We want to hear our voice as the

994
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:49,760
socialist in the Labour Party 
represented. 

995
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:52,520
And so it was so important. 
I was so delighted when the 

996
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:54,480
campaign group decided to stand 
a candidate. 

997
00:52:54,720 --> 00:52:56,480
Some people say oh you've got no
chance. 

998
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:57,840
I say, well that's not the 
point. 

999
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:01,360
We just need to hear that 
socialist voice within the 

1000
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:04,760
Parliament, Parliamentary Labour
Party and and you did it so. 

1001
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:08,400
Ian Lavery always likes to start
off with they don't call it the 

1002
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:12,960
struggle for nothing. 
The idea that we would just give

1003
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:15,440
up because it's hard makes no 
sense. 

1004
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:20,440
That's not how we've won working
class campaigns in the past. 

1005
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:22,800
Yeah, there's all the stuff with
Tony Benn talking about 

1006
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:26,280
sometimes it's just got to 
toughen up and re fight the same

1007
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:29,480
struggles again and again and 
again and we can't give up so 

1008
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:33,200
Lucy Powell wins. 
Not unexpected at all. 

1009
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:37,800
Not unexpected at all, by no 
means of any stretch of the 

1010
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:39,440
imagination. 
Part of the left. 

1011
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:43,160
But what does the impact of her 
victory mean? 

1012
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:44,560
What do you think it 
represented? 

1013
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:49,600
For a lot of people, and they 
saw her as the anti 

1014
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:53,040
establishment candidate because 
she was no longer in the 

1015
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:55,200
cabinet. 
But I suppose we have to 

1016
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:57,240
remember that. 
Think about a week and a half 

1017
00:53:57,240 --> 00:53:59,520
before she put herself forward. 
She wasn't, she wasn't the 

1018
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:02,800
cabinet. 
But yeah, for her to win it was.

1019
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,440
It was clear that people were 
like pointing to the fact that 

1020
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:07,720
they didn't necessarily like the
direction that things were going

1021
00:54:07,720 --> 00:54:11,240
in, so they were going to vote 
for, I suppose, what they saw as

1022
00:54:11,240 --> 00:54:13,400
the alternative. 
It was a way of us all 

1023
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:16,080
expressing our disquiet and 
asking for a different 

1024
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:20,560
direction, regardless of whether
Lucy Powell wanted to have that 

1025
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,840
role or not. 
That's why we voted for her. 

1026
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:25,400
And. 
I think there will be 

1027
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:28,480
expectations on her now and 
that's a good thing. 

1028
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:32,680
And before we move on to the 
Class Hero Hall of Fame and your

1029
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:36,920
nomination, I just want to sort 
of talk to you about reform. 

1030
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:41,640
And you're a we've we've learnt 
today Bell that you're a 

1031
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:44,720
lifelong anti racist campaigner.
I just want to ask the 

1032
00:54:44,720 --> 00:54:49,080
open-ended question. 
How do we beat Nigel Farage and 

1033
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:51,640
report? 
Well, I think first we don't try

1034
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:55,000
and play their game and you know
this has happened time and time 

1035
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:57,400
again. 
We are no good at being very 

1036
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:00,160
right wing. 
It's we're just not good at it. 

1037
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:03,680
We're we're labour and when we 
whenever we try, we perform 

1038
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:07,280
pitifully. 
So we should leave that type of 

1039
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:10,880
behaviour to the people that I 
suppose know what they're doing 

1040
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:14,960
best and get on with, with being
a Socialist Democratic Party. 

1041
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:19,520
And that means doing all of 
those things and standing on all

1042
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:22,760
of those principles that have 
actually won US elections in the

1043
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:25,080
past. 
At the moment, if you look at 

1044
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:28,920
the figures, whilst Reform is 
going to win in certain 

1045
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:32,600
constituencies, judging by the 
polls, the reason why they're 

1046
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:35,680
going to win is not because 
we're losing loads of votes to 

1047
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:38,000
them, but it's because we're 
losing loads of votes to the 

1048
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:39,720
left of us. 
And the idea that people are to 

1049
00:55:39,720 --> 00:55:42,720
the left of us is worry. 
I mean look what happened in 

1050
00:55:42,720 --> 00:55:45,400
Wales. 
I mean look at look at where the

1051
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:50,680
Green Party are picking up a lot
and obviously your party as 

1052
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:52,360
well. 
The reality of this situation is

1053
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:55,720
we are not losing votes to 
Reform, so why would we play to 

1054
00:55:55,720 --> 00:55:58,440
their tune? 
And also we need to stop helping

1055
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:01,440
the media with this self 
fulfilling prophecy. 

1056
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:05,000
The media claim that they're 
giving Reform so much airtime 

1057
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:07,680
because of the polls. 
I don't know of a situation 

1058
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:10,200
where people were given lots of 
airtime because of polls before.

1059
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:13,360
And I think something what we 
need to dig into, the more 

1060
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:16,280
airtime Reform are given, the 
more we talk about them as a 

1061
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:17,760
party. 
The more we talk about them as a

1062
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:19,680
party, the more airtime they're 
given. 

1063
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:23,520
Reform have the same number of 
MPs as the Green Party. 

1064
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:27,680
Why is it that when I go on 
television on a political panel 

1065
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:30,480
show, I'm more likely to be sat 
next to a Reform person than a 

1066
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:33,280
Green person? 
The media are helping them win 

1067
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:36,520
and we are helping the media do 
this by over talking about them.

1068
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:38,080
We are four years from an 
election. 

1069
00:56:38,240 --> 00:56:41,840
The idea that reform get to put 
out a policy and it's being 

1070
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:45,760
treated even more importantly 
than when the Lib Dems or the 

1071
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:49,360
Conservatives say something has 
to be fundamentally wrong and we

1072
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:52,480
need to stop helping them make 
their case. 

1073
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:58,120
This is just the type of PR that
people would pay hundreds of 

1074
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:00,080
thousands of pounds for, and 
we're giving it to them for 

1075
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:02,380
free. 
Yeah, the we, we just had a by 

1076
00:57:02,380 --> 00:57:05,100
election in Colchester on the 
same day as the Caerphilly by 

1077
00:57:05,100 --> 00:57:07,280
election. 
And we had a meet the meet the 

1078
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:08,960
candidate session in the local 
pub. 

1079
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:12,280
And the candidate asked me, he 
said what should we do about 

1080
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:14,760
reform? 
And I said talk about Labour. 

1081
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:19,320
Yeah, don't talk about reform is
my advice of what to do in the 

1082
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:22,880
election campaign. 
Set out the positive things that

1083
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:27,320
you want to do, set out your 
Labour values and set out the 

1084
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:30,200
positive things which Labour in 
government and Labour in the 

1085
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:33,120
council has done. 
Don't talk about reform. 

1086
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:36,560
I agree with you about losing 
votes to the left because as we 

1087
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:41,200
speak, the latest opinion poll 
has put Labour in 3rd place 

1088
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:45,640
behind the Greens, which is just
an extraordinary state of the 

1089
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:47,840
affairs. 
It is and people think the 

1090
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:50,960
places where we have issues and 
I think that's something, I mean

1091
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:52,960
that's something that's always 
got to me in terms of what they 

1092
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:56,760
refer to as Labour Heartlands. 
Now I know we lost before the 

1093
00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:59,480
last election and obviously we 
seem to have picked them up, 

1094
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:00,960
what people call Labour 
heartlands. 

1095
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:04,360
But why isn't, why isn't 
Brixton, why isn't Hackney 

1096
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:07,240
considered Labour heartland? 
We are also Labour heartlands. 

1097
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:12,640
We are places where people have 
voted Labour, you know, 

1098
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:15,360
regardless of whether they've 
got it right or wrong in that 

1099
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:18,040
particular instance. 
But they've always trusted and 

1100
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:21,160
we need to be careful. 
And I always point to what 

1101
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:24,280
happened in 2015. 
So during the 2015 election, I'm

1102
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:26,760
actually, I, I was actually 
working for Diane at the time 

1103
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,360
and I remember we were meant to 
be doing her vote count that 

1104
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:31,840
evening. 
So we're at the counting centre,

1105
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:34,320
but no one's paying attention to
counting the votes because we 

1106
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:38,080
were in the other room watching 
Scotland fall one seat at a 

1107
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:40,280
time. 
And it was a shock. 

1108
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:43,880
It was clearly a shock to a lot 
of those members in in in 

1109
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:46,880
Scotland, what you're meant to 
do when an election comes up. 

1110
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:50,760
If you're in a not so safe seat,
you generally pack up your whole

1111
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:54,720
office and take it with you to 
avoid the embarrassment of 

1112
00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:57,560
coming back and cleaning out 
your office. 

1113
00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:01,600
If you're in a safe seat like 
Diane has been for years, you 

1114
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:05,840
generally pack everything into 
the cupboards so that they can 

1115
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:09,440
get the carpet cleaned when no 
members of Parliament are in and

1116
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:11,880
that's what generally happens in
a general election. 

1117
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:16,440
The week after that election, I 
saw so many of our colleagues 

1118
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:20,280
from Scotland there for ages 
packing up boxes and Wheeling 

1119
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:22,480
things out because they never 
thought they were going to lose.

1120
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:25,960
And the message from that is you
need to be careful because the 

1121
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:30,280
idea that some people may not 
one day just get up and stop 

1122
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:33,640
voting Labour because they've 
had enough of broken promises is

1123
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:36,520
not true. 
We need to make sure that we are

1124
00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:39,880
consolidating our base and 
reminding those that have always

1125
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:42,680
voted for us, even if we're 
we're doing some things to reach

1126
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:46,960
out to other voters, that we are
still here, we still have these 

1127
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:50,120
progressive values and views. 
If we're not careful, those 

1128
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:52,440
groups that have always voted 
for us, just like they did in 

1129
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:54,280
Scotland, will get up and walk 
away. 

1130
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:56,080
The. 
Other thing that I I think if 

1131
00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:58,680
we're going to stop reform, and 
I've discussed this with your 

1132
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:01,440
colleagues John McDonnell and 
Richard Bergen, is that as well 

1133
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:05,840
as changing political direction 
and delivering for our Corvo, I 

1134
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:08,720
think one of the ways we could 
take the wind out the sails of 

1135
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:12,560
Nigel Farage would be to. 
Start arguing for proportional 

1136
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:14,560
representation. 
What's your stance on that 

1137
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:16,320
issue? 
I mean, I don't think it's a bad

1138
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:18,680
idea at all. 
I do think, however, we do need 

1139
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:23,400
to have a system that works for 
the UK because I have been, and 

1140
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:27,040
there was actually a time I was 
speaking to representatives of a

1141
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:29,800
particular campaign for 
proportional representation. 

1142
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:32,640
And I'm not going to lie, I 
wasn't happy with some of the 

1143
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:35,080
responses I, I got. 
And I said, I explained to them 

1144
01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:38,160
that generally I am of, of, of 
that view, but I do have some 

1145
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:41,280
reservations and I explain my 
issue about far right groups 

1146
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:45,040
and, and such things. 
And, you know, that, let's say 

1147
01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:48,360
there were three people on a 
call and one of them said, well,

1148
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:52,400
you know, that's representative 
of of the country. 

1149
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:54,920
So that's democracy. 
Yeah. 

1150
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:57,360
I mean, the idea that we could 
elect people who, as far as I'm 

1151
01:00:57,360 --> 01:01:01,520
concerned, have no believe that 
I have no right to exist freely.

1152
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:06,760
Another person said, well, even 
if they did elect them, people 

1153
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:09,080
would see that they were awful 
after one term and they vote 

1154
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:10,560
them out. 
That's high risk. 

1155
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:14,400
Exactly. 
And then the final person came 

1156
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:19,480
up with, I think having seen my 
looks of disgust from the first 

1157
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:23,000
two responses, made the point 
that actually different systems 

1158
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:24,880
work for different countries. 
And in some countries what 

1159
01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:29,680
they've actually done is to to 
stop this situation where you 

1160
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:32,080
have fascist parties taking 
over. 

1161
01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:34,920
You have a certain percentage. 
So you're not getting people 

1162
01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:39,720
who, let's say, have very fringe
and objectional views. 

1163
01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:41,800
And this is not in an 
undamerical critic way at all. 

1164
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:46,360
We have rules, we have rules 
about human, you know, human 

1165
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:47,760
rights. 
We have laws that protect people

1166
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:50,920
from minorities. 
So it, it, it, those limits help

1167
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:53,000
stop fascist parties from, from 
getting through. 

1168
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:56,280
And I think if we could do 
something like that, then why 

1169
01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:57,560
not? 
But if we, if it was going to be

1170
01:01:57,560 --> 01:02:02,920
open season and then then I'm 
not sure how I would feel about 

1171
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:04,520
that. 
But it looks like that's what 

1172
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:06,400
we're leaning towards. 
And the reason why we're leaning

1173
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:09,640
towards it is because our first 
past the post system hasn't 

1174
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:11,840
delivered what people want when 
they vote. 

1175
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:14,920
And actually we have a system 
where I don't think people are 

1176
01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:17,920
encouraged to vote enough. 
Quite controversially, I wish we

1177
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:20,800
had the Australian system where 
everybody was registered and 

1178
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:26,960
required to vote by law. 
I want true political, you know,

1179
01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:30,360
representation of people, people
actually using their vote. 

1180
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:33,000
And and with that I think should
come an element of education 

1181
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:35,520
because the reality of the 
situation is I don't think 

1182
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:39,040
enough people are taught about 
citizenship, definitely not in 

1183
01:02:39,040 --> 01:02:42,600
schools and and and following in
the in the way that they should 

1184
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:44,280
be. 
So people don't even know how to

1185
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:48,480
access their representatives in 
the way and that they should 

1186
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:51,040
when things go wrong. 
So yes to PR, but with a 

1187
01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:54,040
threshold to stop very small 
minority parties. 

1188
01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:56,920
Yeah, we need, we need to make 
sure that it works for, for, for

1189
01:02:56,920 --> 01:03:00,320
this, for this country and we 
need to make sure that it's it's

1190
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:02,680
done with the programme of 
education as well. 

1191
01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:06,600
So finally that let's let's move
on to your nomination for the 

1192
01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:13,080
Class Hero Hall of Fame, the 
Labour Left Hall of Fame and I'm

1193
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:15,320
I'm guessing that one of the 
contenders might have been a 

1194
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:18,680
certain Diane Abbott, but. 
Yes, but Diane's already been 

1195
01:03:18,680 --> 01:03:21,160
mentioned, so I'm going to I'm 
getting. 

1196
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:24,400
Party democracy. 
Yeah, I mean, she's been 

1197
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:26,760
mentioned before that shows what
what an icon she is. 

1198
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:29,200
So I'm going to go for Bernie 
Grant. 

1199
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:33,480
Oh, brilliant, Bernie. 
Like, I think that somebody like

1200
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:37,160
you stands on the shoulders of 
the great Bernie Grant. 

1201
01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:40,080
Bernie Grant for me, it's so 
great for me as I, you know, 

1202
01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:42,760
Diane telling me that when they 
came in, he was very much their 

1203
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:47,200
leader, self professed leader, 
He of, of the, of those, those 

1204
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:53,040
new black MPs. 
He was unashamedly proud of his 

1205
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:55,360
heritage. 
And actually he was the first 

1206
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:58,600
person to call for reparations 
in Parliament. 

1207
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:01,920
And he did it fearlessly. 
In fact, it was one of the, the 

1208
01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:04,480
last things he did in Parliament
before he passed away. 

1209
01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:08,720
And I think that's something of 
which I, I personally can be 

1210
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:10,120
very proud. 
And in terms of standing on 

1211
01:04:10,120 --> 01:04:15,280
shoulders, really pleased to 
meet Bernie sisters a couple of 

1212
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:18,160
years ago and they said he would
be very proud of the 

1213
01:04:18,160 --> 01:04:20,160
continuation of that works. 
That was very nice. 

1214
01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:22,920
Compliments don't come much 
better than that. 

1215
01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:26,840
No, they don't. 
I did notice that the there's a 

1216
01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:30,040
Bernie Grant scholarship to 
include encourage black 

1217
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:35,760
candidates to come forward and 
so many of those didn't make the

1218
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:38,520
Labour Party shortlisting 
process. 

1219
01:04:38,520 --> 01:04:42,440
They were noveled by HQ, so many
of the people that came forward 

1220
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:44,520
from that scholarship. 
Yeah, that was really 

1221
01:04:44,520 --> 01:04:48,640
unfortunate. 
I am really, really disappointed

1222
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:52,240
in that. 
But as as, as as I said there, 

1223
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:54,160
they don't call it the struggle 
for nothing. 

1224
01:04:54,200 --> 01:05:00,840
And, and I mean, people keep 
asking me why I'm so optimistic 

1225
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:02,960
and I have to explain to them 
that I am. 

1226
01:05:03,360 --> 01:05:08,040
I am a black woman backbencher 
on the left. 

1227
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:11,880
You've got to be optimistic, you
know, and and you have to 

1228
01:05:11,880 --> 01:05:14,920
realise that things don't happen
overnight, but they do change. 

1229
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:20,120
I mean, more recently should be 
back issue month had to speak a 

1230
01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:25,720
lot about standing in in pride 
and power and actually 

1231
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:31,040
recognising that I stand in a 
parliament and I walk past the 

1232
01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:35,400
statues and the paintings of of 
old white men who at some point 

1233
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:38,440
in time may have owned one of my
ancestors. 

1234
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:43,680
And I get to be a member of 
Parliament in a Parliament act 

1235
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:46,720
where not so long ago women 
weren't even allowed to vote. 

1236
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:50,560
And even earlier than that, 
people that looked like me were.

1237
01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:54,240
But you know what? 
We're owned as as, as, as 

1238
01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:56,400
property. 
And in that House I get to call 

1239
01:05:56,400 --> 01:06:00,280
for justice for them, because 
things change. 

1240
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:03,400
I remember Bernie, I was, I was 
looking to be in constituency 

1241
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:06,560
for a short period and I the 
things I learnt about him was 

1242
01:06:06,560 --> 01:06:11,360
that unlike so many MPs, he 
didn't come up for a 

1243
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:13,680
professional route. 
He'd been a trade union full 

1244
01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:17,320
timer, working for a trade union
as well as a prominent community

1245
01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:21,600
Black activist. 
When the uprisings occurred in 

1246
01:06:21,600 --> 01:06:25,360
the early 1980s. 
He stood with the campaigns to 

1247
01:06:25,360 --> 01:06:29,160
get justice for the people that 
had been wrongly accused of 

1248
01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:33,640
crimes. 
He did not back away from 

1249
01:06:33,640 --> 01:06:36,960
difficult issues. 
He was, Yeah, he was an absolute

1250
01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:38,800
legend, wasn't he? 
Absolutely he was. 

1251
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:41,200
Indeed. 
Thanks so much, Val. 

1252
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:45,440
I think I'd like to thank you 
for coming on the show and I 

1253
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:50,040
think it's great that during the
many of us that are involved in 

1254
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:53,760
the left of the Labour knew 
about you before the three days 

1255
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:57,480
deputy leader campaign. 
But I think a much wider group 

1256
01:06:57,480 --> 01:07:00,520
of people got to show how much 
you got to offer. 

1257
01:07:00,520 --> 01:07:04,040
And you may have experienced 
what John McDonnell called a 

1258
01:07:04,040 --> 01:07:09,040
stitch up and our leader may 
have removed you from being the 

1259
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:14,080
shadow minister for migration, 
He may have sacked you as the UK

1260
01:07:14,080 --> 01:07:17,520
trade envoy. 
But I can say with absolute 

1261
01:07:17,520 --> 01:07:22,720
certainty, we may to live in 
uncertain turbulent times, but 

1262
01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:26,720
I'm pretty confident we're going
to be hearing a lot more of Bell

1263
01:07:26,720 --> 01:07:28,840
Ribeiro Addy. 
Thanks, Bell. 

1264
01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:30,080
Thank you.