1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,120 In this week's episode, we continue our conversation with 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,200 Don Cash. If you haven't heard episode 36 3 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:10,600 and 37, I highly suggest you go back and get to know Don and 4 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,640 Katie. Today's topic is compounded 5 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:15,960 grief. Don and Katie Cash open up for 6 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:20,640 the very first time about how Don's daughter Caitlin Cash 7 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,560 found her friend, professional cyclist Mariah MO Wilson, 8 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:28,800 murdered in her apartment. We are here to discuss with Don 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:34,000 and Katie how a family survives another great tragedy. 10 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:39,080 Grief is messy and I'm no maid. This is every widow thing. 11 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,600 Today's episode is brought to you by Roger Brooks and his team 12 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:45,880 at Strategic Investment Management. 13 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:50,480 As an Austin based fiduciary financial advisory firm, Roger 14 00:00:50,480 --> 00:00:54,040 and his team bring decades of experience and empathy to help 15 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:58,160 people regain financial control through life's ups and downs so 16 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:00,240 you can move forward with confidence. 17 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:05,760 This episode is brought to you in part by spiritpieces.com. 18 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,440 Beautiful cremation jewelry and glass art pieces for people and 19 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:11,520 pets. You can find their information 20 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:13,920 on the Every Widow Thing Instagram highlight Reel. 21 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:17,400 We have guests today, Don and Katie Cash. 22 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:21,600 We wanted to do an episode on compounded grief and I saw Don 23 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:23,640 at the pool party and I was super excited to see him because 24 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,080 it's been forever. I was trying to get Rider into 25 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:30,600 college, you know, I've been so busy for so long and I saw him 26 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,920 and I was like, Oh my God, he looks terrible. 27 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:39,120 I know Don, as you can tell he's fun, funny and light hearted and 28 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,880 always is joking around and he was not. 29 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:48,760 Don's daughter Caitlin, on May 11th, 2022, discovered her 30 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,880 friend, the professional gravel mountain bike racer Anna Mariah, 31 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:58,920 now called MO Wilson, was fatally shot by another person 32 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,320 named Caitlin Marie Armstrong in Caitlin's apartment. 33 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,120 And Caitlin discovered her murdered on her bathroom floor. 34 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,919 And I'm sure a lot of our listeners have seen it on 35 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:12,920 Dateline. There's been two episodes, and 36 00:02:12,920 --> 00:02:16,400 those were real recent. I think Nancy Grace covered it 37 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,920 as well. Yeah, everybody. 38 00:02:19,920 --> 00:02:25,200 So it's been a super public tragedy, and we were all talking 39 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:27,360 about it. We first want to be mindful of 40 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:32,080 MO Wilson's family, that they're not only grieving the murder of 41 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,720 their daughter, they're also having to do this publicly. 42 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,360 And, you know, everybody's hounding them, I'm sure for 43 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,080 interviews and and Caitlin as well. 44 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:45,320 Caitlin's having to exist, living with what she saw. 45 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,120 But we first want to say for our show, because we're all about 46 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:54,640 grief and trying to learn to survive and thrive, but we want 47 00:02:54,640 --> 00:02:59,000 to be respectful of MO Wilson's family and Caitlin because this 48 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:00,720 is a terrible thing to go through. 49 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,680 So we're not going to go into the details of of that day, that 50 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,400 horrific day. What we want to talk about here 51 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:11,440 is, is talk about like, what did you do after that fateful day? 52 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,320 And like what were some helpful things? 53 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:15,600 What were some things that weren't helpful for your 54 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:17,440 daughter? Because I think we talked about 55 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,240 EMDR and things like that. So if you'll just kind of tell 56 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:22,960 us like what happened after the fact and what helped and did. 57 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:29,520 Talk with Mariah's parents, Eric and Karen recently and asked 58 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:37,280 them about the podcast and they are yes, we want to keep Mariah, 59 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:43,120 her memory alive and talking about her is a way of doing that 60 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:47,360 so and I've also talked to my daughter Caitlin and asked her 61 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:50,520 about this and she said yes, that would be awesome so. 62 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:56,400 I think that's pretty kind of them to allow you because it 63 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,080 affected you too. And so it's kind of them to 64 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:03,240 allow you to have this, this. This, these things, they have a 65 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:07,680 ripple effect and the ripple is massive. 66 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:14,520 It's, it's just so massive. And part of me thinks having 67 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:18,839 gone through what I did with Elaine and and Caitlin said the 68 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:23,800 same thing, going through this with her mom helped prepare us 69 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:33,880 for this situation. I felt the same emotions. 70 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,680 And this is not something, you know, it it, like I said, it's a 71 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:38,400 ripple effect. It didn't happen to me. 72 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:43,120 It wasn't my daughter. It could have been my daughter 73 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:44,880 if things had been different. But. 74 00:04:52,280 --> 00:04:53,880 It's OK, that's hard to think about. 75 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,000 Take a beat, we will be right back. 76 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,280 Imagine a financial partner who meets you exactly where you are, 77 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:03,360 acknowledging your grief and taking the time to listen, 78 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,560 empathize, and truly understand what matters to you. 79 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,480 Strategic investment management can help you plan a course that 80 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,160 honors your past while embracing your future. 81 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:17,440 Whether you're worried about tax implications, paying off debt or 82 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:20,760 stewarding your asset distributions, Rodgers Team can 83 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:23,680 make a plan that's aligned with your family's needs and goals. 84 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:30,440 For more information, visit www.strategicim.com or give them 85 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:40,880 a call at 512-341-9898. Again, that's 512-341-9898. 86 00:05:41,280 --> 00:05:43,440 Tell them you heard about them on every widow thing. 87 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,640 All right, well, we recently had a podcast about our husband's 88 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,080 ashes. Sadly, Kira still can't get into 89 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:51,080 the box. Can you? 90 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:52,520 We. Have to get in the box I'm 91 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:54,800 working on I'm. Working on the box, the whole 92 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,160 point is you want to be able to do something with those ashes. 93 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:02,040 I came across a great website, itscalledspiritpieces.com, and 94 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,680 what I love about it is that they give you a variety of 95 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,320 options. It's jewelry, it's glass art, 96 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,200 it's statues. You can do a ton of stuff with 97 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:13,440 Ashes and we all have quite a few. 98 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,480 There's a lot in the box, yeah. There is a lot in the box. 99 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:22,840 I like the paperweight idea. Doesn't spiritpieces.com have 100 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:24,840 paperweight? Yes, and you know what's so 101 00:06:24,840 --> 00:06:26,160 great? And there's one that I'm 102 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,240 actually going to order. It's this heart paperweight and 103 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,640 it's beautiful. But what I love about the glass 104 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:34,440 art is that they have like hanging pieces and stuff and 105 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,760 when the light hits it, it feels very heavenly. 106 00:06:38,840 --> 00:06:41,840 That's so pretty, I know. So if you're interested, if this 107 00:06:41,840 --> 00:06:44,080 is something that you would like for your own loved one, 108 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:49,160 spiritpieces.com/every Widow thing so they know that you 109 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:53,840 heard about it through us, is a great option for for you and for 110 00:06:53,840 --> 00:06:55,680 your loved one. We hope you check it out. 111 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:59,560 And now, back to the show. Seeing my daughter in this 112 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:08,240 situation and it, it just brought back so much the same 113 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:20,040 feeling of loss and numbness and not knowing where to do where to 114 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:25,760 go next or what to do next or being able to make any sense out 115 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:30,360 of it. And I felt, I mean, for so long, 116 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:36,080 probably till after the trial, a lot of the same emotions that I 117 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:43,120 felt when I lost my wife. And it just, it crushed me. 118 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:47,720 And again, I'm sort of, I'm on the ripple of it, you know? 119 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,880 So did you know MO before this? She was. 120 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:55,200 Friends with Caitlin, I had never. 121 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:59,400 Met her I, my mother was the, the, the one chance I was 122 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:04,080 probably going to have the meter was going up to Vermont to visit 123 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:09,120 her family for at Christmas and Katie and I couldn't go because 124 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,600 my mother was in the last couple months of her life. 125 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:17,760 So Anna went up and and and and and met her and met the family. 126 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:19,920 And so she and Caitlin were super close. 127 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:24,880 Yes, they had only known each other six months, but I mean 128 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,560 boom, an instant friendship just so. 129 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:30,600 She was in town and was staying at the. 130 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:32,600 She was in town and staying at Caitlin's for. 131 00:08:32,919 --> 00:08:34,679 There was a race that was going on. 132 00:08:34,799 --> 00:08:38,440 Right in Texas, a big bike ride and she was well known. 133 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,360 One of the top up and coming, or maybe the top rider in this 134 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:44,720 gravel thing staying with Caitlin. 135 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,480 Went out with a guy she knew. Anyways, it it. 136 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,360 Yeah, they get murdered. Caitlin comes home, finds her. 137 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:55,960 You know, the the police call me. 138 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:58,600 This is 9:30 at night. The police call me at 11. 139 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,440 I go over, you know, Caitlin still got blood on her. 140 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,680 I at the Police Department, I call Katie. 141 00:09:04,680 --> 00:09:07,160 Katie came home from an out of town trip the next morning. 142 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:09,760 I called Anna. Anna came over that morning. 143 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,920 Caitlin stayed at the house and it's just, you know, it's just 144 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,400 everything you had to go through, going to the apartment 145 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,240 the next day to do some things and work with the police and 146 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:24,360 clean up and everything that you go through this up and down of 147 00:09:24,680 --> 00:09:27,000 it, just it was a lot of the same things. 148 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:31,760 And I just felt for a really long time I didn't know what to 149 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:33,720 do. I didn't know where to go next. 150 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:35,720 I couldn't get my head above water. 151 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,440 Started some therapy again. Yeah, you're watching your and 152 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,320 this is what we all went through when our spouses died. 153 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:50,000 You're watching your child go through a pain that you can't 154 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:55,640 fix. You can't have her Unsee what 155 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:59,560 she saw. You can't take away any of that. 156 00:09:59,560 --> 00:10:05,720 And it is just heart wrenching as a parent to have to watch it. 157 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:09,080 Call you or did she call you were called contact by the 158 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:12,280 police. Yeah, she called 911 and 159 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,120 amazingly spent 10 minutes on the on the phone, on the 911 160 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,840 call doing ACPR for someone who's already dead. 161 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:23,040 Good for her. Wow. 162 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:26,400 Yeah, Strong. She must be. 163 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:28,080 Amazing. She's she's strong. 164 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,360 So you go. You said you went back to 165 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:36,320 therapy, but was that after the trial or like how were you 166 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,040 coping? Because the trial was November 167 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,720 of last year, right? November of 2023. 168 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:43,640 Yeah. So the trial's pretty recent. 169 00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:46,720 It's pretty recent. When did I start Before Before. 170 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,240 Yeah, we talked about it and. And it's like, I just can't 171 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,800 she's well, maybe maybe some therapy would be good. 172 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:58,760 And so I started doing that. And which eventually is that OK 173 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:07,000 to say evolved into some couples therapy because you know. 174 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,280 She hadn't been with you when you dealt with your first grief, 175 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:13,680 and now she's having to be a part of this compounded grief. 176 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,320 And she you're grieving too, because you love Caitlin and 177 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,040 you're seeing Caitlin go through this. 178 00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:23,640 I would imagine it would be very stressful on a marriage. 179 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,520 Well, I mean, you add the fact that it was such a horrific 180 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,240 tragedy and, and, and nonsensical. 181 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,440 I mean, you know what I mean. It's not like most people ever 182 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,120 have to deal with something so public. 183 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,120 And here you are splashed all over the news. 184 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,040 I can't, I really can't imagine it. 185 00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:42,880 And so I would imagine any marriage would would be 186 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,200 challenged. Was Caitlin living? 187 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,200 I would assume that she was. Didn't want to stay in that 188 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,920 apartment at the time so. You would be wrong. 189 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:53,680 So she stayed in the. She lives. 190 00:11:53,680 --> 00:11:56,240 She's still in that apartment day because she can't afford to 191 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,960 buy a house in Austin. And two, she says. 192 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,560 I feel Mariah's presence. Here, of course, I love that I 193 00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:03,480 just got. Chills. 194 00:12:03,680 --> 00:12:06,400 So sweet. So she wasn't living with you. 195 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,560 I would think that would also be a stressful thing if but. 196 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:12,120 Did she spend a period of time at your house? 197 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,680 I don't know why I recall you saying that or but not. 198 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:16,280 A month. But a month? 199 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:18,360 OK, maybe. Yeah. 200 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,160 And she she stayed with some friends during that time off and 201 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:22,760 on. But yeah. 202 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,800 I would imagine you, you, they it was a crime scene, so she had 203 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,840 to stay away for a while, right? Well they keep you out of like a 204 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:32,640 2 days. Oh, OK. 205 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,640 So you're having this these all these emotions coming back, 206 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,120 which is what we wanted to address in terms of like, when 207 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,560 you've gone through something like with Elaine and then 208 00:12:42,560 --> 00:12:46,040 something else happens and there's some backsliding that 209 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,880 can happen like you were saying, and you're so smart to recognize 210 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,640 and say, got to get back into therapy, got to nip this in the 211 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:54,960 bud and. Well, it took. 212 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,880 A while. It took a while and, and, and 213 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:04,240 Elaine was, I mean, Kate, Katie was like, OK, maybe maybe you 214 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,040 should be doing this. And then it's maybe we should be 215 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,760 doing this together. Well, I've had a question. 216 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,000 Didn't you tell me, Don, that you're in school to be a? 217 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,080 Therapist I am. So when did that come about? 218 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,120 Like was it before this tragedy or after? 219 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,120 Or after actually. Is that what precipitated you to 220 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,240 do that? One of the things, yeah, because 221 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:29,920 I it just, it really struck me about how precious life is. 222 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,960 And I was looking ahead and thinking, OK, what, what kind of 223 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,640 legacy do I want to leave? And I'll be working for another, 224 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:42,360 you know, 15 years or more. And I, I thought this is a good 225 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:46,120 time to start something new. And it had been in the back of 226 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:49,640 my mind a few times to, to mental health counseling is what 227 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:53,680 I'm studying. So but these events recently and 228 00:13:53,680 --> 00:13:55,600 I thought no, I'm going to do this. 229 00:13:55,960 --> 00:14:01,320 Actually, to the people who come to see you as clients, I hope 230 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:02,920 you've been through some stuff. What? 231 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:09,640 Were you noticing that was happening to Don and and your 232 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:15,040 relationship and this and. You know, I, I just noticed a, 233 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:22,640 noticed a change in Don, you know, being kind of impatient 234 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:29,400 and, and very easily frustrated and angered and about things 235 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:34,160 that normally wouldn't bother him, you know, and, and then 236 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,720 also worries that he had talked about, you know, that I thought, 237 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,640 oh, it would maybe a good idea to talk to somebody, you know, 238 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:46,080 'cause this is such a such a situation that many of us 239 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,640 wouldn't have have happened before. 240 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,720 So I thought that would be good to help process that. 241 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,040 And but, yeah, I mean, it was really just kind of seeing him 242 00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:01,600 kind of lost and, you know, his he had retired and then these 243 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,200 things happened, you know, caring for his mom and and then 244 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:09,560 this and so, you know. Going through that's a lot. 245 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:15,520 I remember thinking because I had some nothing like what you 246 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,480 were dealing with, but I had some hardships come up after my 247 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,960 husband died and I was like this is so fucking unfair and I can 248 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:27,560 imagine for you thinking this child has been through enough 249 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:29,600 and now. This yes. 250 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,360 I would imagine that anger would come back hard. 251 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,120 Yeah, because Caitlin was young when her mom died, and then she 252 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,120 has to experience this and she's still young. 253 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,400 Well, I'm 68 and I still want to take care of my kids. 254 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:44,120 Yeah, I still want to protect them. 255 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:48,920 And boy, you can't. Well, did you tell me a little 256 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:51,040 bit about EMDR? Because I actually did call that 257 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:52,760 person. I would love for her to be on 258 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:54,920 the show. She hasn't agreed to it yet, but 259 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,760 she but she's so busy, which is good. 260 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:00,840 That means she's really good. Well, apparently. 261 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,360 There's shortages of plumbers and therapists well. 262 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:05,680 Good we're. Going back to work, but she 263 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:09,880 specializes in EMDR and I talked to her yesterday and you so can 264 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,200 you tell us a little? Bit about that, Katie was 265 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,920 explaining to me some of how that works this morning because 266 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,840 I don't know. All I know is, is that Caitlin, 267 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:23,880 she was working at a tech company here in addition to her 268 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:28,600 milk tea business. And surprisingly, the large tech 269 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:35,720 company gave her six months off. And then I think they might have 270 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:37,640 actually paid her for that. I'm not sure. 271 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:42,440 They were very, very supportive at that at that point in time. 272 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:47,840 And so, yeah, I'm, I'm calling around, you know, my job is to 273 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,760 call around and find therapist for, you know, in, in the next 274 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,240 month. And she did some. 275 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,280 But the one thing that came up that people would talk about was 276 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,520 the EMDR. Works like a charm. 277 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:06,040 And so my understanding from her is that she she wanted to do 278 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,160 that wait till after the trial was over. 279 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:13,599 And so she is working with a therapist and I've asked her 280 00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:17,119 about it a few times and apparently it is unbelievably 281 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:21,920 intense and unbelievably hard to do and painful. 282 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:26,560 And she feels like she's making great progress and really likes 283 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:28,920 the therapist. And so she's. 284 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,040 Amazing. That's super encouraging. 285 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:33,680 And that was like, you have to be on the show. 286 00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:37,840 You have to be able to come and, and show people just, and she 287 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,560 said, oh, it's a short amount of time, four or five times you'll 288 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:42,440 come. And she's doing it online, which 289 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,760 I thought was crazy because I thought you had to be in person. 290 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,560 And she said, no, I, she had clients in Costa Rica. 291 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:52,080 She has them all over the world. And she's able to do this 292 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:53,520 therapy. She said usually five or six. 293 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,000 She had been in a car accident. I thought about you two. 294 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:00,880 She had been in a car accident at like age 25 and did EMDR and 295 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,600 that's what cured her so Katie, Katie explained. 296 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:05,960 The fact. That our listeners what? 297 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,680 Everybody knows what EMDR. Is yeah, that's a good, good 298 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:09,600 question. OK, I'll. 299 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,600 I'll, I'll try to, yeah. I just know, I only know just a 300 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:21,520 little bit about it. But so EMDR is a way that a 301 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:29,640 therapist can speak to part of the client's brain by motion 302 00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:36,360 activating the left and right sides of the brain while the 303 00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:40,640 client is remembering some of the experience. 304 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:44,320 Maybe not the whole thing or the worst parts, but the client is, 305 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:48,320 is thinking about the experience and the therapist is guiding 306 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,920 them through and that is speaking to part of their brain 307 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,080 that is telling the body it's so you're safe right now. 308 00:18:55,480 --> 00:19:01,360 And so the practice of that discharges some of the physical 309 00:19:01,360 --> 00:19:08,040 response so that then the the person, the client can not be so 310 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,680 activated by memories of the trauma. 311 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,520 And get these like buzzers in your hand that you get that some 312 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,040 of them, some of them do that. You put buzzers 'cause I did it. 313 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:19,880 And it works. Yeah, there's different ways 314 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:20,480 they. Do that. 315 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,760 So it's amazing that they can take you through this traumatic 316 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,840 experience over and over and over, and by the time you're 317 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,000 done, you're like, whatever. I just can't even. 318 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:34,040 Carry, the hardest part is you are 'cause I did it also for 319 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,000 when I was immediately after the car accident, I was trapped in 320 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:41,200 the vehicle. And if you are reliving those 321 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,920 moments, like if Caitlin was reliving those moments when she 322 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:50,360 discovered her friend, you physically relive when you think 323 00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:54,040 of it and there are, you know, there's stressors on the body 324 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:56,560 and you're always like going through this trauma again. 325 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,920 And so it's supposed to kind of, like you said, sort of divert 326 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:04,800 the brain and the body from each other so that you can talk about 327 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:06,160 it. I mean, I went through and I 328 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,760 still can't explain it, but I was doing things like looking at 329 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:13,480 colors and lights while repeating over and over and 330 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:15,920 over. But that is a very hard. 331 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,880 To have to and he would just say again, again, again and I'd have 332 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,920 to talk about it again. But now when I talk about parts 333 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,360 of the accident, it's almost like I'm detached. 334 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,680 So it really does work, and really is quite apparently. 335 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,360 Moves it from the frontal cortex to the back so you're not in 336 00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:37,480 fight or flight mode all the time, but. 337 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,960 Well, I think, I think you know, since since you got me in here, 338 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:45,960 since I'm a guy and a widower and all you ladies come have one 339 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:53,400 perspective and I have another is, you know, OK, males, men, 340 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,480 don't be afraid to go talk to somebody. 341 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,080 OK. It took Me 2 1/2 years and then 342 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,920 it took Katie kind of prodding me again this time. 343 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,440 But these things have actually helped me, you know? 344 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,440 And I wouldn't have done that. I would have said a bartender 345 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:12,920 friend, don't be afraid to do it. 346 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:17,760 It doesn't make you a weenie. You know, we need help and you 347 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,120 know, you got your friends that help, your spouse that helps, 348 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:26,280 your kids that help and you know, go give somebody 160 bucks 349 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,920 an hour and get some help or go to the thing, you know, the the 350 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,520 group thing. Go, go. 351 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:35,760 Whatever. Whatever, it's right in the 352 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:36,880 show. What do you guys think? 353 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:38,720 I. Appreciate you saying that we. 354 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:40,960 Really do because you can speak to an audience. 355 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,520 We can't they. I think that if you want to live 356 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,960 a healthy life, therapy, EMDR, those grief groups, those are 357 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,520 the best ways that we've found to help us. 358 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,560 And you can always spot the people that have not considered 359 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:54,920 it. Oh. 360 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,400 Then you find friends of mine and that are like, oh. 361 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,000 And Caitlin says some of her friends do couple stuff. 362 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,360 Just they're doing, they're doing great. 363 00:22:02,360 --> 00:22:04,200 But it's like it never hurts to go and. 364 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,880 Well, what we all know is if you don't address it, that doesn't 365 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:12,960 mean it goes away. It's going to bubble up and and 366 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,920 especially with compound grief, if you did the work the first 367 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:20,360 time, it makes these other losses that happen a little bit 368 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,800 more manageable. It does. 369 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:25,320 So thank you guys. We. 370 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,920 Really appreciate you guys coming today because your 371 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,840 vulnerability will help so many people. 372 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,120 We know this is a tough day for you because when we went through 373 00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:37,960 our own individual stories, I don't know about that, I think 374 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,000 they said the same thing. It took a couple of days. 375 00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:44,280 I had to kind of decompress and and so we appreciate it, but 376 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,840 you're helping a lot of people. Just know that the good that 377 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:52,600 comes from it is that, so we appreciate you being here today. 378 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,880 And you both so much. We want all of you listeners out 379 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,280 there to follow us on every widow thing, Instagram, Facebook 380 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:03,200 and please like us and subscribe to YouTube Every widow thing. 381 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:03,880 Bye.