1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:05,440 This is every widow thing I am so excited to share with you 2 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:08,080 guys. The guest for today, her name is 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:10,200 JJ Elliott. She's written a book called 4 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:13,520 There Are No Rules For This. The book was listed on Katie 5 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:18,480 Couric's Best Summer Reading list this past summer, and when 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:22,120 I was scrolling through I found this book and the story is 7 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:26,640 really what touched me. It's about 3 women who lose 8 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:30,640 their very best friend to suicide and how they deal with 9 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,480 the grief and the aftermath of something like that. 10 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,120 And it may sound like it's a very depressing book and not an 11 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:41,800 easy read, but it's honest, it's cathartic, it's funny. 12 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,720 It's all the things that every widow thing tries to be. 13 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:47,640 So I'm so happy that you're here and that you made time. 14 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,520 Thank you. And this is JJ Elliott. 15 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:54,400 You. Guys and thank you for doing 16 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:59,200 what you do because it's it's what I tried to do in my book is 17 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,520 really show the kind of full picture of grief and and every 18 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,320 little nuance and the ups and downs and everything else. 19 00:01:06,320 --> 00:01:08,960 So thank you for talking about this so openly. 20 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:11,080 Absolutely. And well, I just want to dive 21 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:13,920 right in, because I didn't know anything about you when I 22 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:17,480 started reading the book. And very quickly I started 23 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:22,840 thinking, OK, this is fiction, and yet there is a lot of 24 00:01:23,320 --> 00:01:25,680 knowledge about grief, this grief. 25 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,000 How do you know this grief that you're writing about? 26 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:33,320 So it's interesting because a lot of people, I think, think 27 00:01:33,320 --> 00:01:37,840 that the main character, Ally is me because I I write it in first 28 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,000 person. But Ali is the only character 29 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:41,760 that has never really known grief. 30 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,480 And I have known grief most of my life. 31 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,040 My mother died by suicide when I was 17. 32 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,560 My whole young adult life was kind of figuring out that, you 33 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,080 know, grappling with and figuring out that grief and also 34 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,440 trying to understand more about suicide. 35 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,280 And then actually, as I was writing this book, I don't, you 36 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,680 probably don't even know this. So I I wrote the book for about 37 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,680 6 years. And as I was finishing, my 38 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:11,720 father passed away in 2018. So yeah, So I went back into the 39 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,720 book with like this fresh and and when my dad died, unlike 40 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,840 when my mom died, I was able to really just openly grieve him 41 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,680 because it was a, it was a natural occurrence. 42 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,320 It wasn't, you know, with my mom, there was Exactly. 43 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:29,160 And I was older and it was, you know, and I went back into the 44 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:33,200 book and a lot of the kind of really raw grief passages were 45 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,720 written after my dad died, like, right in the kind of aftermath 46 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,920 of that. So it was healing in on in on so 47 00:02:40,920 --> 00:02:43,640 many levels. Yeah, I'd love to talk more. 48 00:02:43,640 --> 00:02:48,400 And I think the girls have questions too about it's suicide 49 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,960 is not really talked about as as openly. 50 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,280 I mean look, death isn't talked about very much either. 51 00:02:55,480 --> 00:03:00,080 But I feel like suicide is such a taboo subject for a lot of 52 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,880 people. I would love to know how your 53 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:06,480 what was your experience after your mom died. 54 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,400 How were people handling handling you? 55 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:11,800 But in a way, yeah, handling you. 56 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,760 Especially at your age and how they talked about it. 57 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,880 Well, so I made it really easy to handle me because I went into 58 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:23,920 perfection mode. I like lost weight, got perfect 59 00:03:23,920 --> 00:03:26,400 grades, dated the cutest boy in school. 60 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,280 Like I made it so that I it was almost like if nobody feels 61 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:34,600 sorry for me this terrible thing didn't happen and and then I 62 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:40,080 went away to college and college was like this like relief for me 63 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,520 because I was I I wasn't the person that this happened to you 64 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,080 know in a small town where everybody knew and I was able to 65 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:51,960 just kind of be a young and free and have fun for four years and 66 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,680 but it was only it was after college when I was started 67 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:57,880 working and just like life just started. 68 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,520 You know I just normal life that I just I went down hard. 69 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,040 I went into I got into therapy and which I've been in most of 70 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,920 my life since I worked on the suicide hotlines for a couple 71 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:10,760 years. It was a process of both 72 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,720 grieving and also just trying to understand what had happened in 73 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,839 my life. And you know, I and that was all 74 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:19,640 very helpful, but it was, it was a lot. 75 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:23,560 It took a long time. I'm curious how someone at that 76 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,080 age, and it's touched on in the book with some of the 77 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:30,120 characters, how do you handle that sort of that second 78 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:35,240 guessing that you know, how did I not know, what could I have 79 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:39,720 done, you know, kind of that guilt at that at that age? 80 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:41,600 I can't even imagine how overwhelming that would have 81 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,640 been. You know, I I didn't. 82 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:46,960 I didn't. I mean, I'm sure I felt that at 83 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:51,440 some point I saw, so my mom had been in retrospect, but I'm 84 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,360 pretty positive my mom was was undiagnosed bipolar, which I 85 00:04:55,360 --> 00:05:00,080 would also say, I think Feeny is the character in the book. 86 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,440 My mom was like very creative and so much fun. 87 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,520 A lot like the Feeny character. But then she would sleep in the 88 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,400 day or like forget to pick me up from school or, you know, 89 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:15,520 they're like I saw things that even my dad didn't see it, but I 90 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,040 didn't know it was. It wasn't normal. 91 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,840 I was an only child. I had no reference. 92 00:05:20,840 --> 00:05:24,240 It's like now as a mother, I can look back and see things, you 93 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,760 know, differently or just even as an adult. 94 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,800 And but my, my parents were always like, your life is 95 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:32,400 perfect. Our marriage is perfect, our 96 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:34,240 family is perfect. That was kind of there, like 97 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,440 there. That's what I was being told 98 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:42,560 shown and I had massive anxiety as a kid and I think it's 99 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,320 because I on some level knew that that was not true and that 100 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:49,800 things weren't great and but nobody was talking about it And 101 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:55,280 so it's like I can almost unpack things now in a in a different 102 00:05:55,280 --> 00:05:58,880 way that it actually it's it's almost a relief to to to be able 103 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,120 to understand that because like I don't I don't I'm not a 104 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:04,800 massively anxious person. I had all these allergies. 105 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,080 I had all this I had, I had it was a mess and I think it had a 106 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:13,520 lot to do with just the like dichotomy of my my, my reality 107 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:17,400 and also like what picking up on other things that was going on 108 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:21,040 at the time. So it's so it's almost it was a 109 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:27,200 total shock and yet there was also kind of the sense of like 110 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,040 something had been brewing, you know? 111 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,560 So how did your dad change like after that? 112 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,680 Or did he? Did he kind of just glaze over 113 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:37,400 and just pretend it didn't happen or? 114 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:42,160 No, I mean my dad. He he very quickly started 115 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,080 dating like women not much older than me. 116 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:45,000 Oh, wow. So. 117 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:52,880 Yeah, yeah. So that was super weird again, 118 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,640 why It was good for me to go away to college and you know, 119 00:06:55,840 --> 00:06:59,360 have my own life because it it was not great with him. 120 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,120 He was, but he was also like emotionally available like he 121 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,240 was. He was not a shutdown guy. 122 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:07,680 Like we could talk about things. We could talk about my mom. 123 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,200 He he grieved. We grieved together and he would 124 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:13,000 talk about her. It wasn't like we never 125 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,800 discussed her again. Our relationship kind of turned 126 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:18,720 into more of like a pure relationship at that point, 127 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,920 which I didn't want. I wanted a parent, but I he just 128 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,120 wasn't able to do that at that time. 129 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,040 And and eventually I got comfortable with that and we you 130 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,960 know made our, made our amends and and had a really good 131 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,480 relationship. And I also something that is 132 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:36,320 important in my book and something that I think is 133 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,160 important is like in life is that I when my dad died I had 134 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:40,880 said everything I needed to say to him. 135 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,600 You know I had told him when he had thought he was an asshole 136 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,680 and I told him how much I loved him and we made each other laugh 137 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:49,800 and we had a great time together. 138 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,560 So like that is so important to me because you know I, I 139 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:58,400 obviously that didn't happen with my mother and and I've had 140 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,760 other losses like that where it's like you didn't get to say 141 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:02,680 those things. So I think that's so important. 142 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,600 Yeah, I think you said something in the book. 143 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:09,120 You're basically saying when something terrible happens, it 144 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,760 kind of gives you the reality of like, oh wait, we don't have a 145 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:14,880 lot of time. I mean, even Max saying like, 146 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,800 fuck the waiting, fuck death, you know, I want to know what 147 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:19,240 you guys think about me right now. 148 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:21,600 And we're going to get into that because I love what they decide 149 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,080 to do. But you know, that's what I love 150 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,920 about this book. And I think people who 151 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,480 understand grief should read it because they'll see themselves 152 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:32,600 in one of the characters or something that was going on. 153 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:38,240 But people who don't have any real experience in it, it really 154 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:42,640 is kind of a book of lessons. And I know that obviously you 155 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,240 you title it. There are no rules for this. 156 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,680 Was that your intention going in that you were going to address 157 00:08:49,680 --> 00:08:50,760 that? There aren't any rules. 158 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,000 Why this? Title That's interesting. 159 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:56,320 The original title was this thing called Light? 160 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:57,560 No, actually, I'm going to go back. 161 00:08:57,560 --> 00:08:59,880 My original title 'cause I thought it was so clever and 162 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:02,720 everyone told me it was a terrible idea, was Week of the 163 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:04,080 Living Dead. Which? 164 00:09:06,560 --> 00:09:07,800 I was like, did it make so much sense? 165 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:09,560 And everyone's like, it's going to, everyone's going to think 166 00:09:09,560 --> 00:09:11,000 it's about zombies. I'm like, I know that's what's 167 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,040 the game. No, it's not only you think it's 168 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,840 funny, JJ. So I then I was, it was titled 169 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,080 this Thing Called Life. And I had, I actually had the 170 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:22,440 Prince quote at the very beginning of the book. 171 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,680 You know, dearly Beloved were gathered here today to get 172 00:09:25,680 --> 00:09:28,360 through this thing called life, which I still love. 173 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,880 I love that quote. I love that idea, that concept. 174 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:34,080 But my publisher was like, you know, this thing called life 175 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:35,960 doesn't tell you much about what this book is like. 176 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,240 There's not a lot of stakes in that title and and there's so 177 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:41,320 many stakes in the book and I feel like in the you know she 178 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:43,360 she felt like it we should we could do better. 179 00:09:43,680 --> 00:09:48,160 So they came back to me with a list of names and and one of 180 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,080 them was something close to this. 181 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,560 And then I think I tweaked it to to there are new rules for this, 182 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:55,720 which I do really like because it's just that's just true. 183 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,680 That's kind of true in in life. But very much, you know, when 184 00:09:59,680 --> 00:10:02,400 when somebody dies, it's like everything kind of goes off the 185 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,520 table, right? You, you, you just heard, you're 186 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:05,880 just getting through it. Right. 187 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:09,240 Well, and I think even for us, we we tell people constantly who 188 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:11,200 are reaching out to us. They're they're wanting 189 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,320 validation that is this feeling normal? 190 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,800 Is this what I'm doing this Is that normal? 191 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:17,760 And we're like, yeah, it's all normal. 192 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,600 Anything that you feel or do is normal. 193 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:25,160 Nobody has, you know, nobody has a a rule book for what you're 194 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:29,880 supposed to be feeling or doing or I know Lacey addresses anger 195 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,720 is something that nobody talks about and and you address it in 196 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,680 the book as well. Because when suicide is part of 197 00:10:37,680 --> 00:10:41,520 the the issue, you're really angry that they made this 198 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:43,880 choice. But as we realized through the 199 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:48,200 book, and I'm sure with all of your research, it's not really a 200 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:49,680 choice. They're not. 201 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,080 No. And I think, I think for me, 202 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,480 working on the hotlines was a huge eye opener and help for me 203 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,920 because I was talking to people, you know, for hours sometimes 204 00:10:59,920 --> 00:11:02,680 about. And they were, they were, even 205 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,000 even though they're calling a suicide hotline, they don't 206 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,960 really want to die. They're just in such a place of 207 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,240 pain that they can't, that they'd literally can't think of 208 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:14,600 another solution. And so sometimes they just need 209 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,480 somebody to offer them other solutions and they'll take them 210 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:18,960 there. They want other solutions. 211 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:23,400 They don't want to do this thing but it's and so it's it feels, I 212 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,440 mean, yes, people say oh it's selfish, it's, you know why 213 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,960 would somebody do that? And it's to me, it's almost like 214 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:32,600 there's no self anymore in that moment. 215 00:11:32,680 --> 00:11:35,480 Like they can't even they don't even have a sense of self in 216 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:39,000 that moment. And it is, it is more of a, it's 217 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,320 a it's a relief of pain than anything else. 218 00:11:43,560 --> 00:11:47,200 And honestly, like that I, I I heard that over and over and 219 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,600 over from people and that was that was helpful because it did 220 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,320 take away some of that that anger and guilt. 221 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:57,000 Was it cathartic for you to do that, to work in the suicide 222 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:57,760 hotline? Yes. 223 00:11:57,760 --> 00:11:59,840 And then it was. It was very cathartic for me. 224 00:12:00,560 --> 00:12:05,120 It was also cathartic for me to write this book, which I I did. 225 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:09,320 This is not why I wrote the book, but having the perspective 226 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:13,320 of a friend of a suicide versus a daughter is a very different 227 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:14,440 thing. I think there's a lot more 228 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:17,880 compassion in it. There's a lot less shame. 229 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:20,440 There's still those feelings, but there's not this. 230 00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:23,400 The abandonment wound is not as as large. 231 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,320 And I I just, I could. It was like I could see a 232 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,080 different side of the whole thing, which was interesting. 233 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,520 I didn't expect that. Were the characters based on 234 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:34,760 people you knew, or did you make them up? 235 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,160 Or were they compilations of people or? 236 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:42,120 Are your mom's friends. I think all of that, yes. 237 00:12:42,680 --> 00:12:45,840 All of it, yes. And also know that it's. 238 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,520 I had never written fiction. I'm a I'm a copywriter in 239 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,680 marketing. That's my day job and I've never 240 00:12:51,680 --> 00:12:55,040 written fiction before this and so I didn't know this to be 241 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:59,240 true, but I do now is that like I think every character has got 242 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,680 a little bit of you and a little bit of everybody you know in it 243 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:05,480 and some maybe more so than others. 244 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:11,000 I mean, you know, but but no, nothing is based on on any one 245 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,960 person. Was your dad able to read some 246 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,040 of this book before he passed away? 247 00:13:17,560 --> 00:13:21,040 Did he have an idea? I don't think he did. 248 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:22,760 No, I that's actually interesting. 249 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,560 I should ask my stepmom. He did eventually get remarried 250 00:13:25,560 --> 00:13:27,600 to a lovely, age appropriate woman. 251 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,520 I didn't have my contract before he passed, so he I don't he 252 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,760 didn't know it was going to be published, but but I know he 253 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:37,480 knows now. He does know now. 254 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,640 I mean so many things in this book that I love because it 255 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,760 really does encompass all of the things that can happen when 256 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:47,240 you're grieving. And one of the things that I did 257 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,000 early on was look for signs, because I believed that there 258 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,280 was something else and you had several signs. 259 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,720 Logins was what I remember. Reading that several signs in 260 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:57,800 your book even you know it was music. 261 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:02,640 It I love that the moth came in and and kind of showed Allie 262 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:06,080 where the ashes were so that she could get them and. 263 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:08,160 The hotel room scene is hilarious. 264 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,200 I was. So nervous reading it, I'm like. 265 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,000 Somebody's going to walk in. Yeah, there's so many twists and 266 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,280 turns in the book that have the. Ashes everywhere. 267 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,200 That you wouldn't, Yeah. That you wouldn't assume would 268 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:23,240 be part of it. You did a very good job of 269 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:28,920 relaying who these women were, who they were, but then who they 270 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,720 were to each other and all their shenanigans. 271 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,080 I felt like we're a lot like those characters because we 272 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,760 have, a lot of of us have dark sense of humor and we laugh at 273 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,600 things that are probably wildly inappropriate to some people. 274 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,200 But when I read this book, I thought they they get it. 275 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:49,160 They grief can bring out some your sometimes it's funny. 276 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,160 Yeah, the the three that remain after Feeney's death, they've 277 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,480 known each other for so long too, which I think that that is 278 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,360 a different kind of friendship then. 279 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,960 I mean, all friendships are wonderful in in their own ways, 280 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,880 but that's a they're, you know, they really know each other's 281 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,040 pains and what they've been through and they've like seen 282 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,160 each other through a lot. So that helps, I think, when 283 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,880 when they lose Feeney. My favorite one of my favorite 284 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,480 quotes that I kept going back to is when we were together, we 285 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,280 built each other back up. Yeah. 286 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:26,520 Did your mom have friendships like that and how were did they 287 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:28,480 rally around you after her death? 288 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,600 Yes, absolutely she did. And she, my Aunt Janet, who I 289 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:38,680 think in the in the the acknowledgements was not my an 290 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:40,640 aunt by blood. She was my mom's best friend. 291 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:44,840 They met when they were teenagers and she's still in my 292 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,600 life. She's a wonderful, amazing human 293 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:53,120 and she she was around from the start and another a couple other 294 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:57,680 friends of my mom's and they very much had and you know like 295 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:01,080 I said Feeney isn't my mom. But my mom did have like a 296 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:06,960 penchant for phallic squashes and these were her friends that 297 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:08,800 she would do some of this these funny things with. 298 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,640 So yes, she did have. Which was, yeah. 299 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:15,880 I mean were any of the stories based on real life, like so you 300 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:17,520 you mentioned the phallic squash. 301 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,640 That so here's The funny thing. When these characters showed up 302 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:25,600 for me when I was started writing, they showed up fully 303 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:28,960 formed in a in a way I I mean like I said I've never written 304 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:30,680 fiction before I don't know if that's how it happens all the 305 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:32,640 time. They were kind of like here I am 306 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,840 and and I would kind of put them in these situations and then let 307 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:36,720 them go. I didn't. 308 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:38,840 I didn't have, like, I don't outline. 309 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,600 I would you know, so and and sometimes I wouldn't even, I'd 310 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:44,080 be like, OK, I need to do a flashback. 311 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:45,760 What's going to happen? And I called one of my friends 312 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,680 in LA and said, OK, if I, if you were thrown in jail, what would 313 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:51,480 it be for? And she's like, well there's 314 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,240 this there's this van that parks in my neighborhood. 315 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:55,440 Oh, that's. Funny. 316 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:00,560 I've seen that van in Lai used to live in Lai Know that van 317 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:01,600 that. Was a real thing. 318 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:02,720 Yes. Oh my gosh. 319 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,160 She didn't vandalize it, but she like, I've thought about it, so, 320 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,760 so some things, but sometimes I would just be like, OK, I'm 321 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,880 here's what they're going to do and I'm just let them kind of go 322 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:14,599 go. And they would, they would tell 323 00:17:14,599 --> 00:17:18,720 me what was going to happen. Let's talk about their idea. 324 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,079 So basically these three women are thrown for a total loop. 325 00:17:22,079 --> 00:17:25,839 They they were not expecting this this suicide at all. 326 00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:29,680 And I also want to recognize we don't say committed suicide 327 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,680 anymore. The the proper term is now what? 328 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:34,800 Died by suicide. And by. 329 00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:38,320 The way I I this is this is an education for me. 330 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,080 I think the back my back cover jacket says committed because I 331 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,600 didn't know this at the time either. 332 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:45,960 But yes, I've learned it's died by suicide. 333 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:51,360 Or I've even heard people say died as from symptoms of 334 00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:54,120 depression. I love that because that that 335 00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:59,440 word committed does make it seem like they did something wrong. 336 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,320 Yeah, a crime. I love that. 337 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,320 I learned it from the article that you wrote. 338 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:04,920 There was an article that you wrote about it. 339 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:06,960 That was the first time I'd ever heard that. 340 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,080 So it really changed the way I think and what? 341 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:16,040 I'm also starting to see I've seen a couple obituaries where. 342 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,000 So for the longest time if I would read an obituary that 343 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,120 didn't have a cause of death, especially if the person was on 344 00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:24,480 the younger side, I was always like well I know what happened 345 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,160 because that's how we handle it right in this in this culture. 346 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,680 And now I've seen a couple where it right off the bat, like died, 347 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:36,920 you know, by symptoms of depression or died by suicide 348 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,280 and then goes on to list all the amazing things about this 349 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,440 person's life. And it's it's such it's to me, 350 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,400 it's almost like a relief. It's like, OK, I can, I can 351 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,680 understand. I can read about this amazing 352 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,120 person and not be constantly like, well, what happened, what 353 00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:50,720 happened? You know I mean I right. 354 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,600 Well, and it's not, see, it shouldn't be secret. 355 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,840 And that's one of the things that I think you kind of relay 356 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,920 in in the book is let's talk about the things that are 357 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,800 bothering us and and and like the the childhood that you had 358 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:06,720 where everyone's pretending it's perfect. 359 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,440 That's not real social media. Everybody pretends like it's 360 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:12,480 perfect. A lot of the times that's not 361 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:17,480 real and let's just be real and talk about things openly and 362 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:22,880 maybe we wouldn't have so much mental illness and or suicide 363 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,840 because people feel like they can actually admit what they're 364 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,240 feeling. Absolutely. 365 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:31,440 And I and and what I've learned, what I learned first hand on the 366 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:36,520 hotlines is talking about it. When talking about your how 367 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,600 you're feeling is really the only thing that is proven to 368 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,080 work. Like medicine doesn't always 369 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:45,200 work, there's not an actual answer other than when you talk 370 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:46,680 about it. It's almost like a release 371 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:48,360 valve, you know. You know you need to talk about 372 00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:52,080 it to like, relieve the anxiety around it. 373 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,520 Right. How have you like after working 374 00:19:55,520 --> 00:20:01,600 on the hotlines and with your own children like conversations 375 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,280 with with them? How do you deal with that? 376 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:10,560 You know I didn't they didn't know how they they've always 377 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:14,840 known that my mom was that my mom had died when I was young 378 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,720 and but they didn't know how until the I just you know until 379 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,040 they were a little bit older. And you know I've just always 380 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:21,880 been very open about it. I've talked about it. 381 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:23,960 They know about me. They both read the book. 382 00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:26,280 They know about my work on the hotlines. 383 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:31,280 That said, I'm going to tell you I I think when you've lost 384 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,200 somebody by suicide, I'm always afraid that somebody else is 385 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,880 going to. It becomes a reality that seems 386 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,560 like it could happen at any minute when when it's happened 387 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:41,760 to you. So I'm always kind of like, you 388 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:45,160 know, that is an anxiety that I will probably carry for the rest 389 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:47,560 of my life. But I do just. 390 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,000 I'm just very much an advocate for talking, talking about. 391 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:55,120 It your was your father able to talk about it or was there shame 392 00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:57,800 in the community, like, was he embarrassed? 393 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,080 It was like he was actually for, you know, a man of his 394 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,120 generation. He was, he was able to talk 395 00:21:04,120 --> 00:21:05,440 about it. He did therapy. 396 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:10,080 He was a an optometrist in like a small town. 397 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,040 So, like he knew everybody. Everybody knew like him and and 398 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,560 and he was pretty beloved. So he did have a good support 399 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,560 and he was able to talk about it and he didn't, you know, shove 400 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:24,120 it down or anything like that. So did he also talk to you about 401 00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:29,440 your mother's highs and lows? And did he ever feel like maybe 402 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:37,080 she needed more help or that? He was his mother had been 403 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:43,560 mentally ill and so he he was able to talk about it after she 404 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,000 died, yes. But when when she was alive, it 405 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,800 wouldn't it would make him mad when she was not doing well. 406 00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:52,160 Because he I mean, I think it reminded him of his own mother 407 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:57,280 and so he wasn't AI mean sorry dad. 408 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:01,880 I know he wasn't a great partner to her in those moments, but he 409 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,880 but after she died, he was he was able to talk about it pretty 410 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:06,600 openly. That's good. 411 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,640 Yeah. I mean, I I in the book, I I see 412 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,880 it was when you're talking about as Ali and I kind of heard your 413 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,760 voice, but you were like, how would I handle this if my world 414 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:19,200 was turned upside down. You know what? 415 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,200 How would this change me? And I thought it was very 416 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,600 interesting because it actually happened to you and and I was 417 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:29,760 curious what would you say to that question as JJ? 418 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,080 Well, unfortunately, I know how it would change me. 419 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,800 But that was kind of ally in the moment, being like like she had 420 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,760 been so wrapped up in her own grief and her own response that 421 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:45,040 she hadn't really, she hadn't fully understood what what it 422 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,760 would be like for for Feeny's daughters. 423 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,880 And in that moment, she kind of had that, that glimpse of what 424 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,320 that might feel like. And it made her really angry. 425 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,560 And which I think is fair. And I and there is that the 426 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,880 moment where where the daughter Caroline looks at Ali and says, 427 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,560 I'm always going to be the person whose mom killed herself. 428 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,440 I absolutely felt that way for longest time. 429 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,360 And I mean literally until adulthood. 430 00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:16,160 And I it was my I had AI have an amazing therapist. 431 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,360 I said to her, I don't want to be the person that this happened 432 00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:21,720 to. And she looked at me and she 433 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,800 said, but you are. And it was like this. 434 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,080 It was the simplest thing, but it's this moment where like the 435 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,240 purse like like my like young self and my adult self kind of 436 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,760 like fused itself together. And I could be both things. 437 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,160 I could be the thing that the person that this happened to and 438 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:40,320 I could also be JJ that has a lot of other things about her 439 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:45,760 that is not that. How did it change you? 440 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,960 How did, How did? Your mom's suicide change you? 441 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,480 And maybe how you parent differently or as a result of 442 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:56,240 what? Happened. 443 00:23:57,120 --> 00:24:04,880 I think I let a lot of shit go and I think I'm a pretty strong 444 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,640 person and I think I have a really good sense of what's 445 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,520 important and what's not, and I'm really grateful for that. 446 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:12,840 I was listening to you guys talk about the Anderson Cooper 447 00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:15,800 podcast and I was. I and I remember I listened to 448 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,320 that too and it was like there is gratitude and grief. 449 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:24,320 I have, you know, I have a a view on the world that I 450 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:30,040 wouldn't have asked for. But I'm so glad I have it and I 451 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:37,640 and I value people, and I also don't put up with people in a 452 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,840 very different way, I think because this has been my, my, my 453 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:45,640 most of my life has been, you know, post grief or post loss. 454 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,480 Right. And I think about who I was 455 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,800 before. And you know, I I was not. 456 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,840 I didn't have the same kind of handle on things that I feel 457 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,560 like I've been had to have right? 458 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,480 Post post my mom's. It's interesting. 459 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,800 We're going to release an episode where our children are 460 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:09,520 talking and and they are asked something similar. 461 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:14,120 And I think that the consensus was we are we, we are not happy 462 00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:16,600 that this happened to us, that our dads died. 463 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:22,040 But we like who we are and we wouldn't be who we are without 464 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,720 part of that story, without that being in our story. 465 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:27,960 So, oh, I just got chills. So it. 466 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,520 Really, my whole life, I feel like people have been telling me 467 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,960 that I'm strong and I'm and and and never really. 468 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,600 It's like that doesn't feel like the right word. 469 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,320 It's almost like I've been forged. 470 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,840 Right. And that's where strength comes 471 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:44,960 from. Yeah, I don't. 472 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:48,200 Know we all feel a little forged over. 473 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:49,360 Here. Yeah, exactly. 474 00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:50,600 From what we've been through as well. 475 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,240 All right, so let's get back to one of the favorite things about 476 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,880 this book is how they take matters into their own hands. 477 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:02,680 So they decide as a collective group that they are going to 478 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,000 have their own funerals now while they're alive. 479 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:10,840 And so can you talk a little bit about how you went there and and 480 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,760 what the process was when you were thinking about each each 481 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:19,520 character's funeral? Yeah, so the idea for the book 482 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,400 came again, like like the characters pretty fully formed. 483 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,560 It was like 4 women, one dies by suicide. 484 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,480 The rest of them have their own funerals while they're still 485 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,400 left. That's all I really kind of knew 486 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,320 when I started writing it. But I loved that each of them 487 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:36,120 came away from that feeling like, like like think about Max, 488 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,560 you know, her, her struggles with her mental health was 489 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:44,200 something that her friends valued about her and and thought 490 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,360 of as like a superpower. And she'd always thought of it 491 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,360 as a as a flaw. So it's like you they they had 492 00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:52,200 this sense of themselves that was different afterwards which 493 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:58,560 you know isn't it such a tragedy that most people don't hear hear 494 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,120 from because they're gone when they one stands up and talks 495 00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:06,400 about that actually learn about themselves through that process 496 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,840 and they don't always get the chance so most people don't get 497 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,480 the chance so that's so and I really do you know maybe because 498 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,040 I've had loss for most of my life I I really do try to say 499 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,600 the things I want to say and you know I I don't want to leave 500 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,080 things unsaid It's it's there's what is the point. 501 00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:26,080 Right, exactly. And I I try to do it on people's 502 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,400 birthdays, but I need to do it, you know, more often. 503 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,840 But telling them, yeah. Those are a bit of a memorial, 504 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:33,200 right? Yeah. 505 00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:36,800 Exactly. And share a funny story Or, you 506 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,240 know, we. Wouldn't maybe go as deep like 507 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,400 we wouldn't be like hey, you really struggle with you know, 508 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,680 your marriage and this is. I think it's. 509 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:45,240 Really. Hard. 510 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,920 Not on on my Facebook post. Loosen, I know. 511 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,400 Yeah, so. Your birthday is coming up. 512 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,120 That's true. No I think but like, but you can 513 00:27:56,120 --> 00:27:57,320 say that. You can say, you know I've 514 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,520 watched, I know I've seen, I've watched you do these things and 515 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,520 battle these demons or deal with these stresses in your life and 516 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,240 it and and I'm and I'm I'm moved by it. 517 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,840 I'm changed by your struggles and how you manage them. 518 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,640 And we've talked on the show about, you know, sudden death 519 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,840 versus a long illness. And we've had guests on here who 520 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,800 have had opportunities throughout, you know, from the 521 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,720 diagnosis till the the person passes away to to say those 522 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:28,520 things. You know, to have those moments, 523 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:33,240 to have the family, you know, write letters and talk to the 524 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:34,880 person and tell them how they feel. 525 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,840 And it's just a completely different situation when the 526 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,800 person dies suddenly and it's not something that you're 527 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,600 prepared for and you don't have that opportunity to say. 528 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:46,680 And we've all talked about that a lot. 529 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,960 How you know, if we could just have 5 minutes with our spouse 530 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,880 to say just say a few things that we didn't get to toward the 531 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:58,960 end. But that's actually interesting. 532 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:03,560 I almost wonder if that would be an interesting exercise to do. 533 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,280 Like what would you if you had five minutes, like what would, 534 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,480 what would you say but write it down or you know, have that that 535 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,960 would be an interesting thing for you guys to for any of us to 536 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,680 think about, right? Like what would those 5 minutes 537 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:16,920 look like? What would we say? 538 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:18,400 How? How would we spend them? 539 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,480 It would almost be overwhelming, especially since it's been 12 540 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,240 years for me. I think so much has happened. 541 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,000 Do you ever think that about that? 542 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,480 Because it's been a while for you as well, that so much has 543 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,920 happened since your mom's day that where would you start to 544 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,600 like do would they know you now? I mean, because what happened to 545 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,320 you and everything subsequently after that has changed who you 546 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,240 are. I think about that all the time. 547 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:42,960 Like what would what would I say? 548 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,240 What would I be like if he came back just for a period of time? 549 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,040 Would I even know him either? It's weird. 550 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,440 What we probably just say is I love you and I'm. 551 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:56,080 I'm grateful for you, you know, and and that's probably all you 552 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,160 would need to say. But it I hadn't thought about 553 00:29:58,160 --> 00:29:58,920 that. That's interesting. 554 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,040 But that's where the signs come in. 555 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:05,200 Because when you get a sign from your loved one, that's them 556 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,600 saying, hey, I haven't gone anywhere. 557 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,880 I'm seeing this. I'm here with you. 558 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,760 It's different. But I'm not gone. 559 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,760 I'm just somewhere else. So I OK. 560 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:23,720 Ever since my dad died, I had a dream where he it was absolutely 561 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:25,840 a visitation. I know it was because he he kind 562 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,160 of came and he said I want you to know that I see you, I see 563 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,240 you for who you are. Like all of his friends would 564 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,080 always come to me and say your dad is so proud of you. 565 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:37,040 He loves you so much because he would talk about me like when he 566 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,840 would see his patients and stuff but he never would tell me and I 567 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,360 was always that would make me mad like well he could tell me 568 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:47,560 instead he was kind of critical. So he said, like I see you, I 569 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,720 see, I see you JJ in the in the dream. 570 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:55,680 And ever since that dream I see JJ and license plates all the 571 00:30:55,680 --> 00:31:01,480 time like multiple times a week. Wow, all the licenses. 572 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,160 My dad likes license plates for some reason. 573 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,200 I know that. Anyway, like I get them all the 574 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,440 time and I and I believe in them and I asked for more and I say 575 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:15,880 thank you and I get them. And actually, we moved into a 576 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:20,440 house a year ago. And just this summer, as I was 577 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,040 like promoting the book, a white moth flew into my bathroom. 578 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,960 And then I know I've never seen. I don't. 579 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:28,640 I made the white moth up. I've never seen a white moth. 580 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:33,080 I don't know. Now they're coming for you. 581 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,880 Even on the way, even on the way over here, and I texted it to 582 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,360 you real quick, JJ, but I get in the car to come to the studio 583 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,040 and and Kenny Loggins is on their way. 584 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,920 Yes. Is that crazy? 585 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,600 So I immediately took a picture and sent it to JJ. 586 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:52,840 I was like. Look who's in the car away. 587 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,000 So let's talk about Kenny Loggins. 588 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:55,400 Yeah. Oh yeah, I. 589 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,320 Was just going to say I went to his concert in October I think, 590 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,280 and he played a 9 minute version of Celebrate. 591 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,560 All right. So, so for the audience 592 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,120 listening that if they haven't read the book yet, Kenny Loggins 593 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,080 plays a little role in this, in this story. 594 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,760 And I love how it he was weaved in. 595 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,400 Was that, I'm assuming just kind of came to you one day. 596 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:23,200 That wasn't in your original plan, Kenny, but you actually 597 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,880 are a fan of Kenny Loggins. I am a fan. 598 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,800 But like, if I was personally, if it was me, if I was going to, 599 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,160 like, muscle a singer into my book, it would be Jon Bon Jovi. 600 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,680 Because I've been in love with him for some. 601 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,440 Reason Really. Yeah, like I so Kenny was isn't 602 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,480 like my personal fave. I've always loved his music, but 603 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,040 it just like Feeny all of a sudden that she loves Kenny 604 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:46,560 Loggins. And so Kenny Loggins is in my 605 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,720 book. One of the things that really 606 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:53,440 resonated with me. Obviously she's the narrator of 607 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,800 the book, so I feel like I know her the best because you're in 608 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:03,520 her head with her. But I was so, for lack of a 609 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:09,560 better word, happy to see how she how the grief went into her 610 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:14,640 marriage. Because Allie got very stance. 611 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,800 She did not want her husband's comfort, She didn't want his 612 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,320 attention. And it resonated with me. 613 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,280 Yeah, it's been controversial. I've gone to lots of book clubs 614 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,240 or events and people are like, I hated her for that. 615 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,560 In that moment, you know, she's doing that bargaining with God, 616 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,520 like kind of like can I have my friend back and can you go away 617 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:37,320 now because like I and and he's trying so hard and she just, she 618 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,320 can't accept it in that moment. She's just too she's too 619 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,880 vulnerable and she's too raw and she's angry and she's angry at 620 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,000 him for no reason at all other than that he's alive. 621 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,880 And I I I think that we all do have these kind of reactions. 622 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,400 You don't know how you're going to react when when you're put in 623 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,760 this situation. Well, it's sometimes we're angry 624 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:58,200 at our husbands. I don't know about you, but I, I 625 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,560 I have been and that's not that's not not logical. 626 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,400 He didn't want to die, so that's not a logical at all, but it's 627 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,680 how you feel so. You can't. 628 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:09,639 You have to process it. You have to go through it. 629 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:11,239 Right. There was one. 630 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,360 The scene that made me laugh so much was when one of the 631 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,320 characters was having to comfort one of the people that were 632 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,560 attending the funeral, and they were calling them the looky 633 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:21,880 loos. And she was comforting someone 634 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,080 that she's like, didn't even like her at all. 635 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,600 And I got tickled because I remember when I was at my 636 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,400 husband's funeral, someone was there and I was like, they don't 637 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,480 even acknowledge my presence little and still don't. 638 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,360 But they were there and I thought, what an odd thing. 639 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:41,480 Some people take grief as like a chance to, like, perform, right? 640 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,360 I mean, I think they do. I think there's people out there 641 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:44,719 like that. They're like, I'm going to be 642 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,239 the one that shows up and does this and that. 643 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,199 And it has nothing to do with the the person who died or the 644 00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:51,960 person who's left. It's like more about the the 645 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:53,840 that person. In your case, because you were 646 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,120 only 17, some people may have been looky loos and wondering 647 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,280 like how will she respond? Like what does that look like? 648 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,040 I kind of felt like people were wondering, what does a young 649 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:04,720 widow look like? Because they. 650 00:35:04,720 --> 00:35:06,040 Have experienced? It before. 651 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,520 I had someone come up to me at at my mom's, like the memorial 652 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,320 service after the funeral, to tell me about everybody that 653 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:15,640 they know that had died by suicide. 654 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:20,160 We're sitting there like, what is happening? 655 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,240 We we haven't. For you. 656 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:23,840 And why are you telling me this? It was. 657 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,720 I mean, people are so weird. Like, I'm worried that I've been 658 00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:29,080 gross in the past before it happened to me. 659 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,240 I I'm worried. I said something trite and 660 00:35:31,240 --> 00:35:34,520 stupid. I'm sure we did, I'm sure we did 661 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:36,960 because we're gross too, but but I think once you've been 662 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:38,440 through. Something I'm not saying we're 663 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:39,480 gross. I'm. 664 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,200 Sure, we all had our gross moments, but but it's like I 665 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,440 think when you when you're on the other side, you have just a 666 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,320 more better knowledge of how to handle those. 667 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:51,960 Situations. We hope so, anyway. 668 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:56,440 Well, and I love you just you handle the grief in such a great 669 00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,160 way and you've got so many different layers of how you know 670 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,520 because there are no rules for this. 671 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:07,400 You you show so many different perspectives of it and I love it 672 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,080 and and I love very early on you're talking about how people 673 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:15,960 rush to normal and I love this. It's on page 17, you said, but 674 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,080 Feeny met Liddy right where she was and didn't try to fix the 675 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:23,000 pain she received. It held it and resounded in the 676 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,800 only way that was honest by reminding Liddy of our 677 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:32,080 permanence in her life that was so powerful You can't fix it. 678 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,960 No. And trying is is what makes us 679 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,920 gross, right? It's trying to fix, but it's 680 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,240 gross. It's like not for the person in 681 00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:45,200 the pain. There's nothing you can do just 682 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,040 but but but witness it and and and walk through it with them, 683 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,160 right? I have someone in my life that I 684 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,720 won't mention but who often does the well. 685 00:36:54,720 --> 00:36:57,200 It could be worse kind of scenario. 686 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,280 And I think they think they're trying to make it better, you 687 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:01,680 know, because they care about me. 688 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,480 But it's like, well, at least you didn't have this happen and 689 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,360 that happened because I know this person that this happened 690 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,480 to, and that's worse than what happened to you. 691 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:14,520 And I don't know if it's like they're trying to make 692 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:18,800 themselves feel better, but it definitely doesn't make me feel 693 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,240 any better because I just need someone to acknowledge, like 694 00:37:21,240 --> 00:37:23,560 this really awful thing happened to you and your family. 695 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,360 I mean, you were like taken out on the road by a drunk driver 696 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:28,200 and I just need the acknowledgement. 697 00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:31,040 Yeah. And on the flip side of that are 698 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,760 people who I and I, I let my friends, like when we were in 699 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,280 high school, and I think they wouldn't want to bring their 700 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,160 problems to me because they're like, well, sure, problems are 701 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,160 so much worse. And that isn't also alienating, 702 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,000 right? Like you you don't you you want 703 00:37:44,240 --> 00:37:46,200 to know whatever other people are going through, 'cause 704 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:47,800 everybody's pain is their pain to them. 705 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,680 And everybody's pain scale is as high as it is for them, right. 706 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:55,880 So you you know, that was that was hard for me too, because I 707 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:57,800 wouldn't. I would sometimes feel like I 708 00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:59,960 wasn't. I wasn't hearing the real story 709 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:01,720 from some people. And it's just like this 710 00:38:01,720 --> 00:38:06,160 hierarchy of problems, right. And I I learned after my 711 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,920 accident, our accident that, you know, sometimes people would 712 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,600 come to me and they were complaining about something that 713 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,960 seemed trivial like, you know, I think I've mentioned this 714 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,360 before. Maybe the tile for their kitchen 715 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,800 renovation was on back order and it was holding up, you know, and 716 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:26,040 that I'm, you know, months out of losing my husband and I tried 717 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:27,400 to just remind. I still do. 718 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,840 I try to remind myself, you know, it's all relative, like 719 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,360 this is their, this is what they're dealing with now. 720 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,760 You know you can't compare and you can't try to 1U. 721 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,080 It's just is where everybody is and it is what everyone. 722 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,400 It's whatever they're dealing with and you and they want 723 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,480 people to come to you with their backward towel issues or 724 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,640 problems in their marriage. You know, like maybe not wanting 725 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:49,400 to talk to you about problems in their marriage because your 726 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:51,960 husband's dead, but you want your friend to come and talk to 727 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,200 you about that? Yeah, and there's going to be a 728 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:57,720 moment where it's flipped and the pain's worse than yours. 729 00:38:57,720 --> 00:39:01,400 And like, that's OK, that's just the way it goes, right? 730 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,440 And we just that's that's friendship and that's life. 731 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,600 Or more acute, like 12 years in, I'm in a much better place than 732 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:09,560 I would have been a couple of years in now. 733 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,520 People can tell me pretty much anything and I don't feel like I 734 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,920 have to minimize their pain because mine was this or you 735 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,200 know, whatever. I wanted to ask you about the 736 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:25,200 journal the that was. I was thinking because I always 737 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,160 have kept notes for years, and I don't really call it a journal 738 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:30,880 or anything. I just keep notes and I put them 739 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:32,960 all on my phone. They're in a section. 740 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,960 And I was thinking, Oh my goodness, if someone got a hold 741 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,280 of that I even thought about after reading this, I even 742 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,560 thought maybe I should go erase a few lines because I've said 743 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,880 some things that people might be, like, horrified that I 744 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:46,080 stand. On. 745 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:52,040 So I was thinking her friends like took her journal and we're 746 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,440 like going through it. And I'm thinking, I don't know 747 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,000 about that. I know I'd be horrified. 748 00:39:58,720 --> 00:40:00,400 So I. Would have read it. 749 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,320 There was her. Feeny's voice was missing for so 750 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,760 much of the book other than the flashbacks. 751 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,120 And so that the idea kind of came to me and I'm like, I'm 752 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,600 going to play with this idea. And you know, and yes, it's 753 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,360 controversial and and they don't make the decision lightly and I 754 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,560 think in the end they, you know, they feel like they're being 755 00:40:17,720 --> 00:40:24,280 protective of her and wanting to be able to share what they can 756 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,240 with her, fit with her daughters. 757 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:27,880 Like, I was thinking about her kids. 758 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,680 If they knew, like because she sounded outrageous in a lot of 759 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:33,960 ways, she would do all these outrageous things. 760 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,080 And in a way, I think she'd be a lot of fun to hang out with. 761 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,280 But your child may not want to know some of those things. 762 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,200 Right. And she, you know, she that was 763 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:45,760 kind of her only form of therapy. 764 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,960 I think she, you know, she just was not raised in a family where 765 00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:52,800 you talked about these things and she even didn't really want 766 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,320 to talk about it with her closest friends and so that so 767 00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,200 her journal is kind of her, her way of of getting some of those 768 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,360 things out that she wasn't able to talk about. 769 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,520 I will say that my mom when my mom died, there was a journal in 770 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,440 her closet and it was all the pages were ripped out. 771 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,920 Oh, who did that do you think she did? 772 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:18,040 Oh, she did. Interesting. 773 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:23,160 See, that makes me sad because I felt I was excited for the 774 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,760 friends when they found the journal because I would. 775 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,720 And they were wanting to know. Could we have done anything 776 00:41:28,720 --> 00:41:29,960 different? Were there signs? 777 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:31,280 What? What could you know? 778 00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:34,120 They were trying to make sense of something and. 779 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,480 Stopped this. I felt like it was therapeutic 780 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,840 for them. And I think they started to see 781 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,040 her in a different way. Like they, you know, she was 782 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:44,280 kind of the bright, shiny object. 783 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:45,720 They'd all known each other for a long time. 784 00:41:45,720 --> 00:41:48,120 And she came in later and she was just such a force of 785 00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:49,880 personality. And I think they were all a 786 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,120 little bit dazzled by her and maybe a little bit like 787 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,360 platonically in love with her. And they they let her get away 788 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,200 with not saying, with saying she was fine. 789 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:03,280 Right when when Liddy says I guess sometimes you need to die 790 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:07,440 in order to wake the fuck up. I think that that is such a 791 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:12,720 resonates with me so much because I I feel like I woke up 792 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,560 when my husband died. And I feel like if people could 793 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:21,560 just get this book, they would not have to deal with the death 794 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:25,400 or the trauma and but they could live it through these characters 795 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,920 and maybe wake up like let's all fucking wake up. 796 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,000 She was like, you know, Liddy just realized, why am I putting 797 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,480 up with a bad marriage if this is my life, You know, like this 798 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,400 is the life I'm I have to lead. I actually listen to a podcast 799 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:43,240 recently where they were talking about, they were talking about 800 00:42:43,240 --> 00:42:48,040 how like we spend like 25 years of our life sleeping and then we 801 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:51,720 and then we spend like three years of our life eating and we 802 00:42:51,720 --> 00:42:55,040 spend, you know, that's a year of our life waiting in lines. 803 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,960 I mean like and it just, you know and what basically the 804 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:02,040 number ended up to be like took you to about 50 of just stuff, 805 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:06,600 just doing shit. And so then it's like, so you 806 00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,000 better be doing that, that boring shit with people you 807 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,400 love. Like do not be doing people that 808 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,080 you don't love because that's just that's just the boring 809 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,360 stuff. And then really make sure you're 810 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,600 doing stuff you love in the other these other years like 811 00:43:20,720 --> 00:43:22,920 that we we really don't have that much time. 812 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:27,560 So be be you know, get cut people out of your life that 813 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:31,280 aren't, that aren't serving you and do the things that bring you 814 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,760 joy. At the end of the book you say 815 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,320 if there's anything we need to take away from Feeny's death, 816 00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:38,280 it's don't keep in the hard stuff. 817 00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:41,520 And I I love that. If there's anything that we can 818 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,080 take away from today, don't, don't keep it in. 819 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:46,280 Everyone's got it. Everyone's got it. 820 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:50,480 And obviously if you or someone you know is struggling or in 821 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:54,360 crisis, help is available. You say you can call or text 822 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,800 988. I did not even know that that it 823 00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,560 was that simple. So everybody has. 824 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,040 Yeah, it's like a 911 now that that's I think maybe been about 825 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,800 10 years ago or something that was a a law that was passed, 826 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:07,760 which is amazing. Yeah, that is incredible. 827 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:13,640 So 988, if you need some help to talk with someone, you know when 828 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:15,320 you're going through something, that's really difficult. 829 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:16,840 And we all do. We all do. 830 00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:20,360 And a shout out to the people like you volunteering on those 831 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,000 hotlines and being the voice on the other side. 832 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:24,560 That's got to be. The time. 833 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,720 And there are people, I mean what you should call it, because 834 00:44:28,720 --> 00:44:30,120 you need the help. And there's there's people 835 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,200 literally sitting in a chair waiting for those calls. 836 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,200 So call them like there's no reason. 837 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,680 Yeah, you're not bothering them. They're they're they're waiting 838 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:38,120 for you. That's amazing. 839 00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:41,960 All right, Out of the four ladies, who are you most like? 840 00:44:42,720 --> 00:44:45,160 Max Allie Feeney. Or. 841 00:44:45,240 --> 00:44:47,120 Liddy and I was like, what? Just. 842 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:54,520 Like I just met y'all. I I don't think I can say only 843 00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:56,880 because I think that there's pieces of me and all of them. 844 00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:01,680 I don't know. So sorry that I don't have an 845 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:03,520 answer for that. I can't tell you that I know my 846 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:05,480 dog breed. Oh, OK, great. 847 00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:06,160 Tell us your. Dog. 848 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,920 I'm a French bulldog. I have one and I can tell 849 00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:16,720 because she's quirky and she she's so stubborn and I'm like, 850 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,360 Oh my God, you're me and a dog. I have. 851 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:24,640 I have one last question. Do you go star fishing in real 852 00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:30,040 life? I never called it that but and I 853 00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,760 don't really. That came out of the blue like 854 00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,800 so much of this book did. But I do love to like lay in the 855 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:39,480 grass and look at the sky. I do. 856 00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:42,800 That's just something I have done in like my life. 857 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:46,000 But I wouldn't say I call it called it and I'm not not always 858 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,680 at night, but but maybe I need to start, yeah. 859 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:52,280 I think I need to also. I love that. 860 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,720 I loved it too. Let's all go starfish after this 861 00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:56,160 all. Right in the rain. 862 00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:57,600 Oh, yeah. It's raining. 863 00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:01,320 JJ Elliott, her book is. There are no rules for this. 864 00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,440 Honestly, you guys, it's so easy. 865 00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:05,440 I read it in three days. It's funny. 866 00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:07,040 It's heartfelt. You'll cry. 867 00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:09,400 You'll laugh. You'll want to go starfishing. 868 00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:13,240 Thank you so much, JJ, for spending some time with us. 869 00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:15,480 Thank you. Bye. 870 00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:17,160 Bye. Thank you.