This is every widow thing I am so excited to share with you
guys. The guest for today, her name is
JJ Elliott. She's written a book called
There Are No Rules For This. The book was listed on Katie
Couric's Best Summer Reading list this past summer, and when
I was scrolling through I found this book and the story is
really what touched me. It's about 3 women who lose
their very best friend to suicide and how they deal with
the grief and the aftermath of something like that.
And it may sound like it's a very depressing book and not an
easy read, but it's honest, it's cathartic, it's funny.
It's all the things that every widow thing tries to be.
So I'm so happy that you're here and that you made time.
Thank you. And this is JJ Elliott.
You. Guys and thank you for doing
what you do because it's it's what I tried to do in my book is
really show the kind of full picture of grief and and every
little nuance and the ups and downs and everything else.
So thank you for talking about this so openly.
Absolutely. And well, I just want to dive
right in, because I didn't know anything about you when I
started reading the book. And very quickly I started
thinking, OK, this is fiction, and yet there is a lot of
knowledge about grief, this grief.
How do you know this grief that you're writing about?
So it's interesting because a lot of people, I think, think
that the main character, Ally is me because I I write it in first
person. But Ali is the only character
that has never really known grief.
And I have known grief most of my life.
My mother died by suicide when I was 17.
My whole young adult life was kind of figuring out that, you
know, grappling with and figuring out that grief and also
trying to understand more about suicide.
And then actually, as I was writing this book, I don't, you
probably don't even know this. So I I wrote the book for about
6 years. And as I was finishing, my
father passed away in 2018. So yeah, So I went back into the
book with like this fresh and and when my dad died, unlike
when my mom died, I was able to really just openly grieve him
because it was a, it was a natural occurrence.
It wasn't, you know, with my mom, there was Exactly.
And I was older and it was, you know, and I went back into the
book and a lot of the kind of really raw grief passages were
written after my dad died, like, right in the kind of aftermath
of that. So it was healing in on in on so
many levels. Yeah, I'd love to talk more.
And I think the girls have questions too about it's suicide
is not really talked about as as openly.
I mean look, death isn't talked about very much either.
But I feel like suicide is such a taboo subject for a lot of
people. I would love to know how your
what was your experience after your mom died.
How were people handling handling you?
But in a way, yeah, handling you.
Especially at your age and how they talked about it.
Well, so I made it really easy to handle me because I went into
perfection mode. I like lost weight, got perfect
grades, dated the cutest boy in school.
Like I made it so that I it was almost like if nobody feels
sorry for me this terrible thing didn't happen and and then I
went away to college and college was like this like relief for me
because I was I I wasn't the person that this happened to you
know in a small town where everybody knew and I was able to
just kind of be a young and free and have fun for four years and
but it was only it was after college when I was started
working and just like life just started.
You know I just normal life that I just I went down hard.
I went into I got into therapy and which I've been in most of
my life since I worked on the suicide hotlines for a couple
years. It was a process of both
grieving and also just trying to understand what had happened in
my life. And you know, I and that was all
very helpful, but it was, it was a lot.
It took a long time. I'm curious how someone at that
age, and it's touched on in the book with some of the
characters, how do you handle that sort of that second
guessing that you know, how did I not know, what could I have
done, you know, kind of that guilt at that at that age?
I can't even imagine how overwhelming that would have
been. You know, I I didn't.
I didn't. I mean, I'm sure I felt that at
some point I saw, so my mom had been in retrospect, but I'm
pretty positive my mom was was undiagnosed bipolar, which I
would also say, I think Feeny is the character in the book.
My mom was like very creative and so much fun.
A lot like the Feeny character. But then she would sleep in the
day or like forget to pick me up from school or, you know,
they're like I saw things that even my dad didn't see it, but I
didn't know it was. It wasn't normal.
I was an only child. I had no reference.
It's like now as a mother, I can look back and see things, you
know, differently or just even as an adult.
And but my, my parents were always like, your life is
perfect. Our marriage is perfect, our
family is perfect. That was kind of there, like
there. That's what I was being told
shown and I had massive anxiety as a kid and I think it's
because I on some level knew that that was not true and that
things weren't great and but nobody was talking about it And
so it's like I can almost unpack things now in a in a different
way that it actually it's it's almost a relief to to to be able
to understand that because like I don't I don't I'm not a
massively anxious person. I had all these allergies.
I had all this I had, I had it was a mess and I think it had a
lot to do with just the like dichotomy of my my, my reality
and also like what picking up on other things that was going on
at the time. So it's so it's almost it was a
total shock and yet there was also kind of the sense of like
something had been brewing, you know?
So how did your dad change like after that?
Or did he? Did he kind of just glaze over
and just pretend it didn't happen or?
No, I mean my dad. He he very quickly started
dating like women not much older than me.
Oh, wow. So.
Yeah, yeah. So that was super weird again,
why It was good for me to go away to college and you know,
have my own life because it it was not great with him.
He was, but he was also like emotionally available like he
was. He was not a shutdown guy.
Like we could talk about things. We could talk about my mom.
He he grieved. We grieved together and he would
talk about her. It wasn't like we never
discussed her again. Our relationship kind of turned
into more of like a pure relationship at that point,
which I didn't want. I wanted a parent, but I he just
wasn't able to do that at that time.
And and eventually I got comfortable with that and we you
know made our, made our amends and and had a really good
relationship. And I also something that is
important in my book and something that I think is
important is like in life is that I when my dad died I had
said everything I needed to say to him.
You know I had told him when he had thought he was an asshole
and I told him how much I loved him and we made each other laugh
and we had a great time together.
So like that is so important to me because you know I, I
obviously that didn't happen with my mother and and I've had
other losses like that where it's like you didn't get to say
those things. So I think that's so important.
Yeah, I think you said something in the book.
You're basically saying when something terrible happens, it
kind of gives you the reality of like, oh wait, we don't have a
lot of time. I mean, even Max saying like,
fuck the waiting, fuck death, you know, I want to know what
you guys think about me right now.
And we're going to get into that because I love what they decide
to do. But you know, that's what I love
about this book. And I think people who
understand grief should read it because they'll see themselves
in one of the characters or something that was going on.
But people who don't have any real experience in it, it really
is kind of a book of lessons. And I know that obviously you
you title it. There are no rules for this.
Was that your intention going in that you were going to address
that? There aren't any rules.
Why this? Title That's interesting.
The original title was this thing called Light?
No, actually, I'm going to go back.
My original title 'cause I thought it was so clever and
everyone told me it was a terrible idea, was Week of the
Living Dead. Which?
I was like, did it make so much sense?
And everyone's like, it's going to, everyone's going to think
it's about zombies. I'm like, I know that's what's
the game. No, it's not only you think it's
funny, JJ. So I then I was, it was titled
this Thing Called Life. And I had, I actually had the
Prince quote at the very beginning of the book.
You know, dearly Beloved were gathered here today to get
through this thing called life, which I still love.
I love that quote. I love that idea, that concept.
But my publisher was like, you know, this thing called life
doesn't tell you much about what this book is like.
There's not a lot of stakes in that title and and there's so
many stakes in the book and I feel like in the you know she
she felt like it we should we could do better.
So they came back to me with a list of names and and one of
them was something close to this.
And then I think I tweaked it to to there are new rules for this,
which I do really like because it's just that's just true.
That's kind of true in in life. But very much, you know, when
when somebody dies, it's like everything kind of goes off the
table, right? You, you, you just heard, you're
just getting through it. Right.
Well, and I think even for us, we we tell people constantly who
are reaching out to us. They're they're wanting
validation that is this feeling normal?
Is this what I'm doing this Is that normal?
And we're like, yeah, it's all normal.
Anything that you feel or do is normal.
Nobody has, you know, nobody has a a rule book for what you're
supposed to be feeling or doing or I know Lacey addresses anger
is something that nobody talks about and and you address it in
the book as well. Because when suicide is part of
the the issue, you're really angry that they made this
choice. But as we realized through the
book, and I'm sure with all of your research, it's not really a
choice. They're not.
No. And I think, I think for me,
working on the hotlines was a huge eye opener and help for me
because I was talking to people, you know, for hours sometimes
about. And they were, they were, even
even though they're calling a suicide hotline, they don't
really want to die. They're just in such a place of
pain that they can't, that they'd literally can't think of
another solution. And so sometimes they just need
somebody to offer them other solutions and they'll take them
there. They want other solutions.
They don't want to do this thing but it's and so it's it feels, I
mean, yes, people say oh it's selfish, it's, you know why
would somebody do that? And it's to me, it's almost like
there's no self anymore in that moment.
Like they can't even they don't even have a sense of self in
that moment. And it is, it is more of a, it's
a it's a relief of pain than anything else.
And honestly, like that I, I I heard that over and over and
over from people and that was that was helpful because it did
take away some of that that anger and guilt.
Was it cathartic for you to do that, to work in the suicide
hotline? Yes.
And then it was. It was very cathartic for me.
It was also cathartic for me to write this book, which I I did.
This is not why I wrote the book, but having the perspective
of a friend of a suicide versus a daughter is a very different
thing. I think there's a lot more
compassion in it. There's a lot less shame.
There's still those feelings, but there's not this.
The abandonment wound is not as as large.
And I I just, I could. It was like I could see a
different side of the whole thing, which was interesting.
I didn't expect that. Were the characters based on
people you knew, or did you make them up?
Or were they compilations of people or?
Are your mom's friends. I think all of that, yes.
All of it, yes. And also know that it's.
I had never written fiction. I'm a I'm a copywriter in
marketing. That's my day job and I've never
written fiction before this and so I didn't know this to be
true, but I do now is that like I think every character has got
a little bit of you and a little bit of everybody you know in it
and some maybe more so than others.
I mean, you know, but but no, nothing is based on on any one
person. Was your dad able to read some
of this book before he passed away?
Did he have an idea? I don't think he did.
No, I that's actually interesting.
I should ask my stepmom. He did eventually get remarried
to a lovely, age appropriate woman.
I didn't have my contract before he passed, so he I don't he
didn't know it was going to be published, but but I know he
knows now. He does know now.
I mean so many things in this book that I love because it
really does encompass all of the things that can happen when
you're grieving. And one of the things that I did
early on was look for signs, because I believed that there
was something else and you had several signs.
Logins was what I remember. Reading that several signs in
your book even you know it was music.
It I love that the moth came in and and kind of showed Allie
where the ashes were so that she could get them and.
The hotel room scene is hilarious.
I was. So nervous reading it, I'm like.
Somebody's going to walk in. Yeah, there's so many twists and
turns in the book that have the. Ashes everywhere.
That you wouldn't, Yeah. That you wouldn't assume would
be part of it. You did a very good job of
relaying who these women were, who they were, but then who they
were to each other and all their shenanigans.
I felt like we're a lot like those characters because we
have, a lot of of us have dark sense of humor and we laugh at
things that are probably wildly inappropriate to some people.
But when I read this book, I thought they they get it.
They grief can bring out some your sometimes it's funny.
Yeah, the the three that remain after Feeney's death, they've
known each other for so long too, which I think that that is
a different kind of friendship then.
I mean, all friendships are wonderful in in their own ways,
but that's a they're, you know, they really know each other's
pains and what they've been through and they've like seen
each other through a lot. So that helps, I think, when
when they lose Feeney. My favorite one of my favorite
quotes that I kept going back to is when we were together, we
built each other back up. Yeah.
Did your mom have friendships like that and how were did they
rally around you after her death?
Yes, absolutely she did. And she, my Aunt Janet, who I
think in the in the the acknowledgements was not my an
aunt by blood. She was my mom's best friend.
They met when they were teenagers and she's still in my
life. She's a wonderful, amazing human
and she she was around from the start and another a couple other
friends of my mom's and they very much had and you know like
I said Feeney isn't my mom. But my mom did have like a
penchant for phallic squashes and these were her friends that
she would do some of this these funny things with.
So yes, she did have. Which was, yeah.
I mean were any of the stories based on real life, like so you
you mentioned the phallic squash.
That so here's The funny thing. When these characters showed up
for me when I was started writing, they showed up fully
formed in a in a way I I mean like I said I've never written
fiction before I don't know if that's how it happens all the
time. They were kind of like here I am
and and I would kind of put them in these situations and then let
them go. I didn't.
I didn't have, like, I don't outline.
I would you know, so and and sometimes I wouldn't even, I'd
be like, OK, I need to do a flashback.
What's going to happen? And I called one of my friends
in LA and said, OK, if I, if you were thrown in jail, what would
it be for? And she's like, well there's
this there's this van that parks in my neighborhood.
Oh, that's. Funny.
I've seen that van in Lai used to live in Lai Know that van
that. Was a real thing.
Yes. Oh my gosh.
She didn't vandalize it, but she like, I've thought about it, so,
so some things, but sometimes I would just be like, OK, I'm
here's what they're going to do and I'm just let them kind of go
go. And they would, they would tell
me what was going to happen. Let's talk about their idea.
So basically these three women are thrown for a total loop.
They they were not expecting this this suicide at all.
And I also want to recognize we don't say committed suicide
anymore. The the proper term is now what?
Died by suicide. And by.
The way I I this is this is an education for me.
I think the back my back cover jacket says committed because I
didn't know this at the time either.
But yes, I've learned it's died by suicide.
Or I've even heard people say died as from symptoms of
depression. I love that because that that
word committed does make it seem like they did something wrong.
Yeah, a crime. I love that.
I learned it from the article that you wrote.
There was an article that you wrote about it.
That was the first time I'd ever heard that.
So it really changed the way I think and what?
I'm also starting to see I've seen a couple obituaries where.
So for the longest time if I would read an obituary that
didn't have a cause of death, especially if the person was on
the younger side, I was always like well I know what happened
because that's how we handle it right in this in this culture.
And now I've seen a couple where it right off the bat, like died,
you know, by symptoms of depression or died by suicide
and then goes on to list all the amazing things about this
person's life. And it's it's such it's to me,
it's almost like a relief. It's like, OK, I can, I can
understand. I can read about this amazing
person and not be constantly like, well, what happened, what
happened? You know I mean I right.
Well, and it's not, see, it shouldn't be secret.
And that's one of the things that I think you kind of relay
in in the book is let's talk about the things that are
bothering us and and and like the the childhood that you had
where everyone's pretending it's perfect.
That's not real social media. Everybody pretends like it's
perfect. A lot of the times that's not
real and let's just be real and talk about things openly and
maybe we wouldn't have so much mental illness and or suicide
because people feel like they can actually admit what they're
feeling. Absolutely.
And I and and what I've learned, what I learned first hand on the
hotlines is talking about it. When talking about your how
you're feeling is really the only thing that is proven to
work. Like medicine doesn't always
work, there's not an actual answer other than when you talk
about it. It's almost like a release
valve, you know. You know you need to talk about
it to like, relieve the anxiety around it.
Right. How have you like after working
on the hotlines and with your own children like conversations
with with them? How do you deal with that?
You know I didn't they didn't know how they they've always
known that my mom was that my mom had died when I was young
and but they didn't know how until the I just you know until
they were a little bit older. And you know I've just always
been very open about it. I've talked about it.
They know about me. They both read the book.
They know about my work on the hotlines.
That said, I'm going to tell you I I think when you've lost
somebody by suicide, I'm always afraid that somebody else is
going to. It becomes a reality that seems
like it could happen at any minute when when it's happened
to you. So I'm always kind of like, you
know, that is an anxiety that I will probably carry for the rest
of my life. But I do just.
I'm just very much an advocate for talking, talking about.
It your was your father able to talk about it or was there shame
in the community, like, was he embarrassed?
It was like he was actually for, you know, a man of his
generation. He was, he was able to talk
about it. He did therapy.
He was a an optometrist in like a small town.
So, like he knew everybody. Everybody knew like him and and
and he was pretty beloved. So he did have a good support
and he was able to talk about it and he didn't, you know, shove
it down or anything like that. So did he also talk to you about
your mother's highs and lows? And did he ever feel like maybe
she needed more help or that? He was his mother had been
mentally ill and so he he was able to talk about it after she
died, yes. But when when she was alive, it
wouldn't it would make him mad when she was not doing well.
Because he I mean, I think it reminded him of his own mother
and so he wasn't AI mean sorry dad.
I know he wasn't a great partner to her in those moments, but he
but after she died, he was he was able to talk about it pretty
openly. That's good.
Yeah. I mean, I I in the book, I I see
it was when you're talking about as Ali and I kind of heard your
voice, but you were like, how would I handle this if my world
was turned upside down. You know what?
How would this change me? And I thought it was very
interesting because it actually happened to you and and I was
curious what would you say to that question as JJ?
Well, unfortunately, I know how it would change me.
But that was kind of ally in the moment, being like like she had
been so wrapped up in her own grief and her own response that
she hadn't really, she hadn't fully understood what what it
would be like for for Feeny's daughters.
And in that moment, she kind of had that, that glimpse of what
that might feel like. And it made her really angry.
And which I think is fair. And I and there is that the
moment where where the daughter Caroline looks at Ali and says,
I'm always going to be the person whose mom killed herself.
I absolutely felt that way for longest time.
And I mean literally until adulthood.
And I it was my I had AI have an amazing therapist.
I said to her, I don't want to be the person that this happened
to. And she looked at me and she
said, but you are. And it was like this.
It was the simplest thing, but it's this moment where like the
purse like like my like young self and my adult self kind of
like fused itself together. And I could be both things.
I could be the thing that the person that this happened to and
I could also be JJ that has a lot of other things about her
that is not that. How did it change you?
How did, How did? Your mom's suicide change you?
And maybe how you parent differently or as a result of
what? Happened.
I think I let a lot of shit go and I think I'm a pretty strong
person and I think I have a really good sense of what's
important and what's not, and I'm really grateful for that.
I was listening to you guys talk about the Anderson Cooper
podcast and I was. I and I remember I listened to
that too and it was like there is gratitude and grief.
I have, you know, I have a a view on the world that I
wouldn't have asked for. But I'm so glad I have it and I
and I value people, and I also don't put up with people in a
very different way, I think because this has been my, my, my
most of my life has been, you know, post grief or post loss.
Right. And I think about who I was
before. And you know, I I was not.
I didn't have the same kind of handle on things that I feel
like I've been had to have right?
Post post my mom's. It's interesting.
We're going to release an episode where our children are
talking and and they are asked something similar.
And I think that the consensus was we are we, we are not happy
that this happened to us, that our dads died.
But we like who we are and we wouldn't be who we are without
part of that story, without that being in our story.
So, oh, I just got chills. So it.
Really, my whole life, I feel like people have been telling me
that I'm strong and I'm and and and never really.
It's like that doesn't feel like the right word.
It's almost like I've been forged.
Right. And that's where strength comes
from. Yeah, I don't.
Know we all feel a little forged over.
Here. Yeah, exactly.
From what we've been through as well.
All right, so let's get back to one of the favorite things about
this book is how they take matters into their own hands.
So they decide as a collective group that they are going to
have their own funerals now while they're alive.
And so can you talk a little bit about how you went there and and
what the process was when you were thinking about each each
character's funeral? Yeah, so the idea for the book
came again, like like the characters pretty fully formed.
It was like 4 women, one dies by suicide.
The rest of them have their own funerals while they're still
left. That's all I really kind of knew
when I started writing it. But I loved that each of them
came away from that feeling like, like like think about Max,
you know, her, her struggles with her mental health was
something that her friends valued about her and and thought
of as like a superpower. And she'd always thought of it
as a as a flaw. So it's like you they they had
this sense of themselves that was different afterwards which
you know isn't it such a tragedy that most people don't hear hear
from because they're gone when they one stands up and talks
about that actually learn about themselves through that process
and they don't always get the chance so most people don't get
the chance so that's so and I really do you know maybe because
I've had loss for most of my life I I really do try to say
the things I want to say and you know I I don't want to leave
things unsaid It's it's there's what is the point.
Right, exactly. And I I try to do it on people's
birthdays, but I need to do it, you know, more often.
But telling them, yeah. Those are a bit of a memorial,
right? Yeah.
Exactly. And share a funny story Or, you
know, we. Wouldn't maybe go as deep like
we wouldn't be like hey, you really struggle with you know,
your marriage and this is. I think it's.
Really. Hard.
Not on on my Facebook post. Loosen, I know.
Yeah, so. Your birthday is coming up.
That's true. No I think but like, but you can
say that. You can say, you know I've
watched, I know I've seen, I've watched you do these things and
battle these demons or deal with these stresses in your life and
it and and I'm and I'm I'm moved by it.
I'm changed by your struggles and how you manage them.
And we've talked on the show about, you know, sudden death
versus a long illness. And we've had guests on here who
have had opportunities throughout, you know, from the
diagnosis till the the person passes away to to say those
things. You know, to have those moments,
to have the family, you know, write letters and talk to the
person and tell them how they feel.
And it's just a completely different situation when the
person dies suddenly and it's not something that you're
prepared for and you don't have that opportunity to say.
And we've all talked about that a lot.
How you know, if we could just have 5 minutes with our spouse
to say just say a few things that we didn't get to toward the
end. But that's actually interesting.
I almost wonder if that would be an interesting exercise to do.
Like what would you if you had five minutes, like what would,
what would you say but write it down or you know, have that that
would be an interesting thing for you guys to for any of us to
think about, right? Like what would those 5 minutes
look like? What would we say?
How? How would we spend them?
It would almost be overwhelming, especially since it's been 12
years for me. I think so much has happened.
Do you ever think that about that?
Because it's been a while for you as well, that so much has
happened since your mom's day that where would you start to
like do would they know you now? I mean, because what happened to
you and everything subsequently after that has changed who you
are. I think about that all the time.
Like what would what would I say?
What would I be like if he came back just for a period of time?
Would I even know him either? It's weird.
What we probably just say is I love you and I'm.
I'm grateful for you, you know, and and that's probably all you
would need to say. But it I hadn't thought about
that. That's interesting.
But that's where the signs come in.
Because when you get a sign from your loved one, that's them
saying, hey, I haven't gone anywhere.
I'm seeing this. I'm here with you.
It's different. But I'm not gone.
I'm just somewhere else. So I OK.
Ever since my dad died, I had a dream where he it was absolutely
a visitation. I know it was because he he kind
of came and he said I want you to know that I see you, I see
you for who you are. Like all of his friends would
always come to me and say your dad is so proud of you.
He loves you so much because he would talk about me like when he
would see his patients and stuff but he never would tell me and I
was always that would make me mad like well he could tell me
instead he was kind of critical. So he said, like I see you, I
see, I see you JJ in the in the dream.
And ever since that dream I see JJ and license plates all the
time like multiple times a week. Wow, all the licenses.
My dad likes license plates for some reason.
I know that. Anyway, like I get them all the
time and I and I believe in them and I asked for more and I say
thank you and I get them. And actually, we moved into a
house a year ago. And just this summer, as I was
like promoting the book, a white moth flew into my bathroom.
And then I know I've never seen. I don't.
I made the white moth up. I've never seen a white moth.
I don't know. Now they're coming for you.
Even on the way, even on the way over here, and I texted it to
you real quick, JJ, but I get in the car to come to the studio
and and Kenny Loggins is on their way.
Yes. Is that crazy?
So I immediately took a picture and sent it to JJ.
I was like. Look who's in the car away.
So let's talk about Kenny Loggins.
Yeah. Oh yeah, I.
Was just going to say I went to his concert in October I think,
and he played a 9 minute version of Celebrate.
All right. So, so for the audience
listening that if they haven't read the book yet, Kenny Loggins
plays a little role in this, in this story.
And I love how it he was weaved in.
Was that, I'm assuming just kind of came to you one day.
That wasn't in your original plan, Kenny, but you actually
are a fan of Kenny Loggins. I am a fan.
But like, if I was personally, if it was me, if I was going to,
like, muscle a singer into my book, it would be Jon Bon Jovi.
Because I've been in love with him for some.
Reason Really. Yeah, like I so Kenny was isn't
like my personal fave. I've always loved his music, but
it just like Feeny all of a sudden that she loves Kenny
Loggins. And so Kenny Loggins is in my
book. One of the things that really
resonated with me. Obviously she's the narrator of
the book, so I feel like I know her the best because you're in
her head with her. But I was so, for lack of a
better word, happy to see how she how the grief went into her
marriage. Because Allie got very stance.
She did not want her husband's comfort, She didn't want his
attention. And it resonated with me.
Yeah, it's been controversial. I've gone to lots of book clubs
or events and people are like, I hated her for that.
In that moment, you know, she's doing that bargaining with God,
like kind of like can I have my friend back and can you go away
now because like I and and he's trying so hard and she just, she
can't accept it in that moment. She's just too she's too
vulnerable and she's too raw and she's angry and she's angry at
him for no reason at all other than that he's alive.
And I I I think that we all do have these kind of reactions.
You don't know how you're going to react when when you're put in
this situation. Well, it's sometimes we're angry
at our husbands. I don't know about you, but I, I
I have been and that's not that's not not logical.
He didn't want to die, so that's not a logical at all, but it's
how you feel so. You can't.
You have to process it. You have to go through it.
Right. There was one.
The scene that made me laugh so much was when one of the
characters was having to comfort one of the people that were
attending the funeral, and they were calling them the looky
loos. And she was comforting someone
that she's like, didn't even like her at all.
And I got tickled because I remember when I was at my
husband's funeral, someone was there and I was like, they don't
even acknowledge my presence little and still don't.
But they were there and I thought, what an odd thing.
Some people take grief as like a chance to, like, perform, right?
I mean, I think they do. I think there's people out there
like that. They're like, I'm going to be
the one that shows up and does this and that.
And it has nothing to do with the the person who died or the
person who's left. It's like more about the the
that person. In your case, because you were
only 17, some people may have been looky loos and wondering
like how will she respond? Like what does that look like?
I kind of felt like people were wondering, what does a young
widow look like? Because they.
Have experienced? It before.
I had someone come up to me at at my mom's, like the memorial
service after the funeral, to tell me about everybody that
they know that had died by suicide.
We're sitting there like, what is happening?
We we haven't. For you.
And why are you telling me this? It was.
I mean, people are so weird. Like, I'm worried that I've been
gross in the past before it happened to me.
I I'm worried. I said something trite and
stupid. I'm sure we did, I'm sure we did
because we're gross too, but but I think once you've been
through. Something I'm not saying we're
gross. I'm.
Sure, we all had our gross moments, but but it's like I
think when you when you're on the other side, you have just a
more better knowledge of how to handle those.
Situations. We hope so, anyway.
Well, and I love you just you handle the grief in such a great
way and you've got so many different layers of how you know
because there are no rules for this.
You you show so many different perspectives of it and I love it
and and I love very early on you're talking about how people
rush to normal and I love this. It's on page 17, you said, but
Feeny met Liddy right where she was and didn't try to fix the
pain she received. It held it and resounded in the
only way that was honest by reminding Liddy of our
permanence in her life that was so powerful You can't fix it.
No. And trying is is what makes us
gross, right? It's trying to fix, but it's
gross. It's like not for the person in
the pain. There's nothing you can do just
but but but witness it and and and walk through it with them,
right? I have someone in my life that I
won't mention but who often does the well.
It could be worse kind of scenario.
And I think they think they're trying to make it better, you
know, because they care about me.
But it's like, well, at least you didn't have this happen and
that happened because I know this person that this happened
to, and that's worse than what happened to you.
And I don't know if it's like they're trying to make
themselves feel better, but it definitely doesn't make me feel
any better because I just need someone to acknowledge, like
this really awful thing happened to you and your family.
I mean, you were like taken out on the road by a drunk driver
and I just need the acknowledgement.
Yeah. And on the flip side of that are
people who I and I, I let my friends, like when we were in
high school, and I think they wouldn't want to bring their
problems to me because they're like, well, sure, problems are
so much worse. And that isn't also alienating,
right? Like you you don't you you want
to know whatever other people are going through, 'cause
everybody's pain is their pain to them.
And everybody's pain scale is as high as it is for them, right.
So you you know, that was that was hard for me too, because I
wouldn't. I would sometimes feel like I
wasn't. I wasn't hearing the real story
from some people. And it's just like this
hierarchy of problems, right. And I I learned after my
accident, our accident that, you know, sometimes people would
come to me and they were complaining about something that
seemed trivial like, you know, I think I've mentioned this
before. Maybe the tile for their kitchen
renovation was on back order and it was holding up, you know, and
that I'm, you know, months out of losing my husband and I tried
to just remind. I still do.
I try to remind myself, you know, it's all relative, like
this is their, this is what they're dealing with now.
You know you can't compare and you can't try to 1U.
It's just is where everybody is and it is what everyone.
It's whatever they're dealing with and you and they want
people to come to you with their backward towel issues or
problems in their marriage. You know, like maybe not wanting
to talk to you about problems in their marriage because your
husband's dead, but you want your friend to come and talk to
you about that? Yeah, and there's going to be a
moment where it's flipped and the pain's worse than yours.
And like, that's OK, that's just the way it goes, right?
And we just that's that's friendship and that's life.
Or more acute, like 12 years in, I'm in a much better place than
I would have been a couple of years in now.
People can tell me pretty much anything and I don't feel like I
have to minimize their pain because mine was this or you
know, whatever. I wanted to ask you about the
journal the that was. I was thinking because I always
have kept notes for years, and I don't really call it a journal
or anything. I just keep notes and I put them
all on my phone. They're in a section.
And I was thinking, Oh my goodness, if someone got a hold
of that I even thought about after reading this, I even
thought maybe I should go erase a few lines because I've said
some things that people might be, like, horrified that I
stand. On.
So I was thinking her friends like took her journal and we're
like going through it. And I'm thinking, I don't know
about that. I know I'd be horrified.
So I. Would have read it.
There was her. Feeny's voice was missing for so
much of the book other than the flashbacks.
And so that the idea kind of came to me and I'm like, I'm
going to play with this idea. And you know, and yes, it's
controversial and and they don't make the decision lightly and I
think in the end they, you know, they feel like they're being
protective of her and wanting to be able to share what they can
with her, fit with her daughters.
Like, I was thinking about her kids.
If they knew, like because she sounded outrageous in a lot of
ways, she would do all these outrageous things.
And in a way, I think she'd be a lot of fun to hang out with.
But your child may not want to know some of those things.
Right. And she, you know, she that was
kind of her only form of therapy.
I think she, you know, she just was not raised in a family where
you talked about these things and she even didn't really want
to talk about it with her closest friends and so that so
her journal is kind of her, her way of of getting some of those
things out that she wasn't able to talk about.
I will say that my mom when my mom died, there was a journal in
her closet and it was all the pages were ripped out.
Oh, who did that do you think she did?
Oh, she did. Interesting.
See, that makes me sad because I felt I was excited for the
friends when they found the journal because I would.
And they were wanting to know. Could we have done anything
different? Were there signs?
What? What could you know?
They were trying to make sense of something and.
Stopped this. I felt like it was therapeutic
for them. And I think they started to see
her in a different way. Like they, you know, she was
kind of the bright, shiny object.
They'd all known each other for a long time.
And she came in later and she was just such a force of
personality. And I think they were all a
little bit dazzled by her and maybe a little bit like
platonically in love with her. And they they let her get away
with not saying, with saying she was fine.
Right when when Liddy says I guess sometimes you need to die
in order to wake the fuck up. I think that that is such a
resonates with me so much because I I feel like I woke up
when my husband died. And I feel like if people could
just get this book, they would not have to deal with the death
or the trauma and but they could live it through these characters
and maybe wake up like let's all fucking wake up.
She was like, you know, Liddy just realized, why am I putting
up with a bad marriage if this is my life, You know, like this
is the life I'm I have to lead. I actually listen to a podcast
recently where they were talking about, they were talking about
how like we spend like 25 years of our life sleeping and then we
and then we spend like three years of our life eating and we
spend, you know, that's a year of our life waiting in lines.
I mean like and it just, you know and what basically the
number ended up to be like took you to about 50 of just stuff,
just doing shit. And so then it's like, so you
better be doing that, that boring shit with people you
love. Like do not be doing people that
you don't love because that's just that's just the boring
stuff. And then really make sure you're
doing stuff you love in the other these other years like
that we we really don't have that much time.
So be be you know, get cut people out of your life that
aren't, that aren't serving you and do the things that bring you
joy. At the end of the book you say
if there's anything we need to take away from Feeny's death,
it's don't keep in the hard stuff.
And I I love that. If there's anything that we can
take away from today, don't, don't keep it in.
Everyone's got it. Everyone's got it.
And obviously if you or someone you know is struggling or in
crisis, help is available. You say you can call or text
988. I did not even know that that it
was that simple. So everybody has.
Yeah, it's like a 911 now that that's I think maybe been about
10 years ago or something that was a a law that was passed,
which is amazing. Yeah, that is incredible.
So 988, if you need some help to talk with someone, you know when
you're going through something, that's really difficult.
And we all do. We all do.
And a shout out to the people like you volunteering on those
hotlines and being the voice on the other side.
That's got to be. The time.
And there are people, I mean what you should call it, because
you need the help. And there's there's people
literally sitting in a chair waiting for those calls.
So call them like there's no reason.
Yeah, you're not bothering them. They're they're they're waiting
for you. That's amazing.
All right, Out of the four ladies, who are you most like?
Max Allie Feeney. Or.
Liddy and I was like, what? Just.
Like I just met y'all. I I don't think I can say only
because I think that there's pieces of me and all of them.
I don't know. So sorry that I don't have an
answer for that. I can't tell you that I know my
dog breed. Oh, OK, great.
Tell us your. Dog.
I'm a French bulldog. I have one and I can tell
because she's quirky and she she's so stubborn and I'm like,
Oh my God, you're me and a dog. I have.
I have one last question. Do you go star fishing in real
life? I never called it that but and I
don't really. That came out of the blue like
so much of this book did. But I do love to like lay in the
grass and look at the sky. I do.
That's just something I have done in like my life.
But I wouldn't say I call it called it and I'm not not always
at night, but but maybe I need to start, yeah.
I think I need to also. I love that.
I loved it too. Let's all go starfish after this
all. Right in the rain.
Oh, yeah. It's raining.
JJ Elliott, her book is. There are no rules for this.
Honestly, you guys, it's so easy.
I read it in three days. It's funny.
It's heartfelt. You'll cry.
You'll laugh. You'll want to go starfishing.
Thank you so much, JJ, for spending some time with us.
Thank you. Bye.
Thank you.