1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,800 You found us. I'm glad you did, but I'm so 2 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:06,240 sorry you had to. The good news is we got you. 3 00:00:06,520 --> 00:00:10,400 So come sit in our widow circle where trauma meets humor and we 4 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,440 remind you that you can not only survive, but thrive. 5 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,280 This is every widow thing. We were getting so much great 6 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,120 information from EMDR specialist Katie Cummings that we had to 7 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:24,120 keep going. Welcome back to the 8 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:26,760 conversation. This is Part 2 When. 9 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:32,040 You were talking about how hard the bottom up that kind of work 10 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:33,960 is. It is no joke. 11 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:37,040 It's easier to just go in the therapist office and bitch about 12 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:40,800 the election or your neighbors or it's easier to go and do that 13 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,480 kind of therapy than what we're talking about where you're 14 00:00:43,480 --> 00:00:46,040 actually reliving these like really horrific moment. 15 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,880 It's easy to fake it, like you just go in and talk about what 16 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,920 was bothering you that day and and never really dive down deep 17 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:59,280 into what the belief is around why that got you worked up so. 18 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,120 And I've even had therapists that couldn't figure that out 19 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:03,560 though either. So it was frustrating because 20 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,080 you felt like you were just going and paying for that hour 21 00:01:06,320 --> 00:01:07,760 and it was just a dumping session. 22 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:09,600 I thought I could just talk to myself about that. 23 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:12,440 The one question that kept coming up to me when I sent 24 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:16,000 someone to you, I didn't realize you can do Zoom. 25 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,720 I thought, how cool is that? Because it used to be that you 26 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:22,880 had buzzers in your hands and then the eye movement thing with 27 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:27,080 the fingers bugged me so much that they removed that piece. 28 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,360 But when you said you could do it Zoom, how does that work 29 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:33,640 differently than being in person? 30 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:36,960 It's it's so the pandemic surprised me. 31 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,200 I thought for sure there's no way this is going to translate 32 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:42,000 over Zoom. But I mean, everyone's in 33 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,880 distress. I'll try and it works the same. 34 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,640 And now there are different systems of people who are like, 35 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,560 I love being in person, like we are all bonding mammals, right? 36 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,680 We we need and, and that's why sometimes talk therapy, even if 37 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:59,000 it doesn't feel like it's healing from the bottom up, it's 38 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,560 still like being with another person who is holding presents 39 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:06,160 for you can still be healing. For me, it was healing because I 40 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:10,360 got it out of my own head and at least it was verbalized, which 41 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,160 helped me kind of put puzzle, the puzzle pieces together. 42 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:15,720 Yes, versus trying to do it we. Do it like a brain dump. 43 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:17,640 Yeah, you. Got to take it. 44 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:20,080 And get out of. It so how but yes the tap. 45 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:21,720 Tap on the desk. Do they? 46 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,080 So it is I mean and you can use bilateral stimulation anytime. 47 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,720 So therefore there are different programs for eye movement that 48 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,960 you can pop up on the on the Zoom call and the most popular 49 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:37,200 in my in my practice is tapping and and do you? 50 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,240 I have looked into tapping, but I don't, again, I feel like I'm 51 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,120 doing it wrong. So, but I've, I've watched 52 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,280 people do all the tapping and I love the idea of it. 53 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,320 And I do tap myself sometimes, yeah. 54 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:52,520 And I try to say some things and then I'm like, what if I'm 55 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,280 telling my body the wrong thing? Like I shouldn't do this without 56 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:58,040 a professional body. Well, so, so there's EFT 57 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,560 tapping, which is you can search it up on YouTube and there's 58 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:05,560 different acupressure points that you tap that can help what 59 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:07,920 we say down regulate your nervous system. 60 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,080 It's really just amping up your parasympathy. 61 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,840 There is something about that, that motion, that beat or 62 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,720 whatever on your, on your body, I don't know. 63 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:21,960 Well, so for from an EMDR perspective, when when we do 64 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:26,640 bilateral stimulation tapping for processing, it's right and 65 00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:28,480 left. And you can do butterfly taps 66 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,880 where you just cross your hands over your chest and you tap 67 00:03:31,920 --> 00:03:33,520 right, left, right, left. I'm not. 68 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:38,160 Going out like MVO, right? Or whichever version it's part. 69 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,800 Of why it works because it's, it's, it's almost like the CBT 70 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,320 stuff, right? Where it's like, put yourself in 71 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:48,000 the here and now versus in your head with that memory. 72 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,880 Or it's, it is absolutely trying to stay present with the body so 73 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:53,640 you don't go into disassociation. 74 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,200 But it is, it's, it's so natural for us. 75 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,640 And that that's not the only way you can tap the sides of your 76 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:02,400 knees if you, if you want to try it that way. 77 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:04,920 So I have some people who will go into stressful business 78 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,600 meetings and underneath the table, they're tapping right, 79 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,120 left on, on the sides of their knees or even your feet back and 80 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:11,760 forth. Yeah. 81 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,200 Well, if they're in a meeting, use that example and they're 82 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:15,960 tapping what? What does that do? 83 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,360 Just make them focus more on their body or like how do you 84 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:20,640 have a meeting and doing that too? 85 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,080 Or is that just prior I'm? Doing it right now Laci and I'm. 86 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:25,520 Thinking I'm gonna, I can see. It in your eyes. 87 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:28,080 I'm doing. It I'm so better. 88 00:04:28,280 --> 00:04:30,080 Than others. You have no idea what's 89 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:32,840 happening under this signal. To be extremely technical, if 90 00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:36,640 that's that what you want, yes. So in our autonomic nervous 91 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:42,000 system, we have two branches, the parasympathetic, which is 92 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,480 our brakes, our calming system and we have the sympathetic, 93 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:49,600 which is the gas that gets us moving and into a stress state. 94 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,680 And sometimes we need that right to work out or engage like even 95 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:55,920 even right now, right? Like, we have a sympathetic 96 00:04:55,920 --> 00:05:00,840 parasympathetic balance as we're talking, and the bilateral 97 00:05:00,840 --> 00:05:06,360 stimulation helps increase your parasympathetic signals in your 98 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,840 body. And when you think about it, 99 00:05:09,280 --> 00:05:11,760 that's the way we sway a baby when we're trying to calm them 100 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:14,040 down right, left, right. Swaddling really tight. 101 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,000 And going back and forth right and balancing that right and 102 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,040 left or when we go for a walk and we feel better afterwards, 103 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,680 it's because we're balancing that right and left sides of our 104 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:26,480 bodies. And and so that is technically 105 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,520 why it's helpful. In a session, like one session 106 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,760 would be something like you just did with Laci where she closes 107 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:37,480 her eyes and she's imagining the event and what are those 108 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:41,280 feelings and it's talking her through the memory of it, 109 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,920 something like that. But in in another session, it 110 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:49,040 could be, are you telling, are you talking about the trauma 111 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:52,400 while you're tapping or is it all in one session? 112 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:54,480 You do all of it. Good question. 113 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:59,160 So when when we set up a target, which flying would be a target 114 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:03,000 or my car accident would be a target, we set up the, the 115 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,760 specific memory. So I would say, OK, so bring me 116 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,480 back like bring me in your head, like tell me exactly where that 117 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:11,400 moment was, where it was the worst. 118 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:18,040 And most everyone has an answer. And then we ask what is your 119 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:22,280 belief about yourself and that memory, which is highlights that 120 00:06:22,280 --> 00:06:25,640 maladaptive memory network and then how, which feelings are 121 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:31,120 coming up and, and how, how intense it is on a zero to 10. 122 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,360 And so there's a really specific format that we go through for 123 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:39,320 every target. And so, and all we're looking is 124 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,240 for that, that number to decrease. 125 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,320 So, and, and sometimes that means that if someone's at an 8, 126 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:51,880 they only get to a 7.5 that day. But sometimes people hit a zero 127 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,840 like that. The most beautiful part about it 128 00:06:54,840 --> 00:06:58,720 to me, I mean, it's so I'm obsessed with this model because 129 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:02,720 of, I've seen thousands of people find healing from it. 130 00:07:03,280 --> 00:07:07,840 But is that we not only identify what the trauma is, but what the 131 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:12,240 belief is that you want instead. So instead of I'm not safe, it's 132 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,760 I'm OK, or I'm safe or I've got this. 133 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,560 And that's so the, that belief is what we call the negative 134 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,520 cognition. And we also find the positive 135 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,080 cognition at the same time and how true that is. 136 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:29,240 So it's clearing that target, but then moving over into the 137 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:33,640 safety aspect and that positive belief and how true it is. 138 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:37,520 And what's so cool about once it's at a zero, when you start 139 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,840 working on that positive cognition, someone could say, 140 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,920 well, I only believe that a three on a one to seven, I'm 141 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:45,120 like, OK, well, what's a three about? 142 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:47,280 And we start to work on the three. 143 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:49,520 And that's usually like a sliver that's left. 144 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,800 And so once someone is a zero and then everything that 145 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,800 positive cognition is fully true, that's that's when I see 146 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:03,160 someone integrate and their their symptoms don't come back. 147 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:08,200 Our audience is an audience of grievers and they've suffered 148 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,800 loss. Do you have in your practice, do 149 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:16,000 you see a lot of clients that are dealing with a loss like 150 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:20,240 ours? Certainly, I mean EMDR is really 151 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:27,560 good to help with what happened and any thinking, feeling, 152 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:32,039 sensing as a part of that traumatic experience. 153 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:40,360 And then grief, as we know, is you see, stages, you see. 154 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,799 Well, it's a lifelong thing. Absolutely it is, but. 155 00:08:43,919 --> 00:08:48,680 You can get it from A10 to A2. You can except for those moments 156 00:08:48,680 --> 00:08:51,800 when it hits you like A10 and there's no, I don't think that 157 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:55,440 ever changes. That's the love coming back for 158 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:59,680 a minute, you know? And it also can be like I did 159 00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:02,240 the EMDR and I was great for a long time, had no more. 160 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:03,760 I still don't have panic attacks. 161 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,560 Which is. A great thing I have anxiety, 162 00:09:06,560 --> 00:09:08,880 but I don't have panic attacks because that's the thing that 163 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,320 healed the most which is the most debilitating. 164 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,800 You think you're going to die or you're having a heart attack. 165 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,080 And at my age now, that can be a thing. 166 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,640 So you're like, is that a panic attack or is that having good 167 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:19,880 health? Why is this doing this? 168 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:24,040 But I thought maybe now since there's a new attachment, it's 169 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,640 flying is the next thing. I was like, Oh my God, this is 170 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,040 ever going to end. But as Whitney said it, it's a 171 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,160 lifelong. Thing, the grief part of it is 172 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,480 for sure, but the trauma part, it sounds like you were saying 173 00:09:35,680 --> 00:09:40,080 the airplane was a part. They were all targets, but they 174 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,680 had the same belief underneath of I'm not safe. 175 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:46,440 I'm only going to be safe if everything's perfect. 176 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:48,640 I'm only going to be safe if everything's clean. 177 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,400 I'm only going to be safe if I take a car instead of a plane. 178 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,400 It's the same belief. So she could have gone deeper 179 00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:59,960 and then the airplane wouldn't have come. 180 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,720 Up or come back, or you could come back and address that 181 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,320 particular piece of it. Yeah, because just like with the 182 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,280 parts work, when I named the hurt part, the hurt part is the 183 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,680 one that holds the belief. And so when I when I work with 184 00:10:11,680 --> 00:10:15,680 people who have been widowed or I have, I have a dear friend of 185 00:10:15,680 --> 00:10:17,560 mine who just lost her five year old son. 186 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,320 And I know, I know, I know. It's. 187 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,640 It has been and it's been. Unthinkable. 188 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,840 Yeah, yeah. I just love them so much and I'm 189 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:32,320 with them. And it is survivors guilt comes 190 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,000 up a lot, right? Like a belief is it's my fault 191 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,560 that I lived. And so that's a target. 192 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:43,400 And so anything that you can trace to belief can be a target 193 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:47,240 and someone can find the relief of desensitizing the charge or 194 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:51,000 the trigger around that. Does insurance typically cover 195 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,040 EMDR or it just varies? Good question. 196 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:57,960 It can the, you know, the tricky thing, there's a, there's a lot 197 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,880 happening politically with, with insurance and, and, and 198 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:06,120 clinicians because the insurance companies will pay a fraction of 199 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:08,920 of what our market rate is. And so it is. 200 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:15,160 They will cover EMDR for sure. Like a lot of therapists, they 201 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,320 don't. They don't take insurance, Yeah. 202 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:22,200 And, and I think it and it's largely because our training is 203 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:26,000 so expensive and that is just the basic that doesn't include 204 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,480 EMDR training, advanced EMDR training, any of that. 205 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:34,880 And so I think that it is, it's really hard for therapists as a 206 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:40,680 whole to figure out how to make a living while also offering 207 00:11:40,680 --> 00:11:44,560 people those benefits while also making it accessible to to 208 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,800 everyone because everyone deserves mental health care. 209 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,320 And so it's a, it's in a sticky spot right now. 210 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,160 Does it work on children? Like what age? 211 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:55,680 Oh, yeah. Can you, You know, because we do 212 00:11:55,680 --> 00:11:58,120 have some listeners with young children and they lost their 213 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:02,840 father and, you know, they're looking for help, you know, 214 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,040 anywhere they can get it. So I was just curious. 215 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,120 Yeah, you can do it on work with children for sure. 216 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,520 It's it's, it's certainly more complicated in that sense 217 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,360 because you you want to be so careful when you're working with 218 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:20,400 developing brains. And so I'd say that most 219 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,560 clinicians are on the cautious side and take it take more of a 220 00:12:23,560 --> 00:12:28,720 play therapy approach. And, and I've seen effective MDR 221 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,240 in children. And there's just different, 222 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,920 different ways that we shift the work, for example. 223 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:42,560 So like if they're not able to access the memory and they're 224 00:12:42,560 --> 00:12:45,080 like, you know, I really don't feel a lot around that all, even 225 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:47,440 though all the signs point to it being we both have. 226 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:49,600 Kids like that. OK, OK, our. 227 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,320 Youngest or my youngest and your son who were four and six. 228 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,040 They pretend, they say they don't really remember. 229 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:57,960 And some. People go, I'm sure they don't 230 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,800 remember because they were 4:00 and 6:00 and you're like my. 12 231 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:03,680 year old said he didn't really remember stuff and I was like. 232 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:06,160 Yeah, it was. In their sentence, they'll. 233 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:10,200 Remember something like they'll remember something at the same 234 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,360 time frame that's so insignificant. 235 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,080 So you're like, I know you do protection, but you can't tell 236 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,000 them that because you don't like, you've got to be so 237 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,280 careful. Their nervous system is telling 238 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,880 you I'm not ready, right? And so so how do you work? 239 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,440 Around that, let's say you have a patient that you can tell 240 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,400 they're not ready. They do remember, but they 241 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,960 don't. Yeah, I think you, you, you 242 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:38,720 still work on improving the quality of their life. 243 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:43,640 So whichever ways they're willing to open up and try 244 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:48,120 different things and experiment or, and, and sometimes you'll be 245 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:50,760 able to see what the protector is and sometimes there are 246 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:54,960 several and maybe bring some mindfulness around that. 247 00:13:55,880 --> 00:14:00,320 And as we know that going through different life events 248 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:06,720 brings up earlier stuff, right? And so maybe, you know, when I, 249 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:10,720 if I hadn't worked on that car accident and then my 13 year old 250 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,120 starts driving in three years, like I'd be maybe having a panic 251 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:15,960 attack thinking about him driving, right. 252 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:22,400 And so it's there's no exact science related to when someone 253 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,320 is ready, if they'll respond to it. 254 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,640 It's cracking the coconut, which is one of one of my mentors said 255 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,720 of like you, you try one aspect, the coconut doesn't crack, you 256 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:33,920 try another. Like you just have to get really 257 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:35,960 creative. That's more of the artistic side 258 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,520 of of doing this work like if. We were going to look for 259 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,800 someone who does EMDR and you want the best one because this 260 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,240 is important. What would you look for? 261 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,680 I'm a little biased. I want to hear well your. 262 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:54,440 Expert opinion. Yeah. 263 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,680 Like when my friend is, my friend who lost her son is I 264 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:00,920 desperately need someone. Like, what do I do? 265 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:07,600 And I, I am looking for someone who does not consider themselves 266 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:12,400 the knower where they are in a power over stance, believing 267 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,880 that they're going to analyze and heal you and that it's up to 268 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:17,600 them. No way. 269 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:19,960 I think so. I think that there's a level of, 270 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,360 of knowing that it is absolutely a collaborative process that it 271 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,000 is power with, which is a huge thing that I'm just advocating 272 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,720 so much for now is that our culture's in a power over power 273 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,280 under dynamic and that is not going to get us anywhere. 274 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:38,080 It is absolutely power with and it's, and everyone deserves 275 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,640 basic decency and respect and kindness. 276 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,520 And, and I think that you can feel that when you're talking 277 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:46,640 with someone. So that's the first thing that I 278 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,280 look for. And, and, and truly when when 279 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,800 you're going into therapy with someone, the relationship and 280 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,000 your ability to build trust and rapport and safety is one of the 281 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,080 biggest indicators of any of it working, no matter which model 282 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:03,400 you choose, right. So then I would look for if 283 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,480 someone has done their own therapy. 284 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,760 I know plenty of people, plenty of clinicians who have never 285 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,480 done their own work, and I cannot imagine that's why I only 286 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:14,000 have. Women deliver my babies. 287 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,560 I don't, I mean nothing against male gynecologists, but I 288 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,320 wanted, I want someone who also has a Hoo ha. 289 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,720 Look at a Hoo ha. You're on to something. 290 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:25,560 I mean, yes. There's a saying you're not 291 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:26,680 wrong. You're not wrong. 292 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,720 Hilarious. No, I it makes perfect sense 293 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,800 because you've seen, like you said earlier, you've sat on both 294 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,960 sides, so you know what your client is going through and you 295 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,520 also know how beneficial the work can be. 296 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:43,480 Yeah, on a personal level. So it makes a huge difference. 297 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:45,400 Yeah, and I know. What I'm asking them to do 298 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,120 right? I know the price, the 299 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:52,440 exhaustion, the the feeling like you're zapped after a session 300 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:57,040 because you just did a big release and you you can't do 301 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:58,920 anything else for that day. I mean, there are some people 302 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:04,920 who have gone through extraordinary traumas and after 303 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:07,680 those release sessions, like they're pretty tired, right? 304 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,720 I came. Out of my first session, ETT. 305 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,000 Like in a daze. Yeah. 306 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:17,160 Like I didn't know where I was, what day it was, what the rest 307 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,359 of my day looked like. I was so out of it after those 308 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:22,160 sessions. It was bizarre. 309 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:24,440 You need a nap. Mine used to tell me to go take 310 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,480 a nap now and I literally would take it as a script. 311 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:29,800 Yeah. My script says I have to go take 312 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,400 a nap and I've been trying to like give that to myself even 313 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,520 now. And we're all so accomplishment 314 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,360 oriented in this society. I the other day I did, I don't 315 00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:40,960 know why it just flew out of my mouth, but this one woman, I 316 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,720 could tell she was very big into what's your career and this and 317 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:46,280 that. And I was feeling judged. 318 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:47,840 And she said, well, what do you do? 319 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:49,640 And I said, as little as I can get away with. 320 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:51,120 I love it. I love that. 321 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,680 And this is the second time I've said this to a person, but this 322 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,680 my friend that was sitting there could not stop laughing and she 323 00:17:57,680 --> 00:17:59,360 kept pressing. She said no really. 324 00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:03,200 And I said no. I mean really, I am doing as 325 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,360 little as I can get away with. Let me tell you the shows I've 326 00:18:06,360 --> 00:18:09,440 been watching because I felt judged and I thought I am not 327 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,240 having it and I get. Tired of explaining it. 328 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:16,040 I was literally just explaining it to someone the other day, a 329 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,840 friend who was just like, well, why haven't you like, done this, 330 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,480 this and this Yeah. And I'm like, look, I mean, I'm, 331 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,960 I have a fiance, I'm in a new partner, I have a new partner. 332 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,600 It's great. But I'm still raising my kids by 333 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,360 myself. I mean, I'm still like parenting 334 00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:34,840 those 3 grieving children. I've still lost my husband. 335 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:36,160 I'm still carrying all that around. 336 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:38,800 I love my partner. He's super helpful. 337 00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:42,160 But I think people think everything's all back to normal 338 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:43,240 you. Got a new person? 339 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:47,560 Everything's so easy for me now because I have Brendan and I'm 340 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:51,800 like, yeah, it's better. I mean, he's great, but it's a 341 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,440 lot of things haven't changed. And I think it's easier for 342 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:59,280 others to just assume because, well, first of all, everyone's 343 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:01,400 thinking about themselves 1st and that's natural. 344 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,040 But I get so tired of having to explain like, hey, I haven't 345 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:10,000 gotten to this, this and this because I'm still handling all 346 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,880 the finances for myself and my three kids, my three kids, all 347 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,360 the college tuitions, all the travel for them, all the this, 348 00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:20,480 that, all the medical, all the things I'm still doing 349 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,840 everything for my family. And you just get tired of 350 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:25,520 explaining it. Yeah, sometimes you just want to 351 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:27,720 be like, yeah, I'm just, you know, binge watching the 352 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:29,800 Diplomat, you know? Well, in addition, you're. 353 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,440 Taking on him and his family situation, right? 354 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:34,320 So it's actually more. Work. 355 00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:37,640 I found it was more work being with someone. 356 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:39,960 It is. At times it is because we're 357 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,240 blending. He has a teenage daughter. 358 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,120 We're blending our families. So yeah. 359 00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:47,640 But, I mean, you just get tired of explaining like, hey, you 360 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,920 know, I went through a lot. I'm still going through a lot. 361 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:52,720 My kids are still going through a lot. 362 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,520 Not the same. I had someone the other night 363 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:58,800 say, oh, yeah, all these different kinds of grief. 364 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,200 And I know, you know, you lost Frank. 365 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,240 And now I sort of get it now that I'm an empty nester. 366 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,520 I was like wait. What? 367 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:08,600 Nope. I'm like. 368 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:11,600 It's like when someone says that they know what it's like to have 369 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,320 a child because they have a dog. Oh, they. 370 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:15,560 Say they're a golf widow. A golf widow. 371 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:17,240 I'm like, oh, that's so. Sad. 372 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,360 Always gracious about it, but I couldn't get over the like. 373 00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:23,120 Now that I'm an empty nesting, I kind of get what you went 374 00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:24,920 through. I was like, OK. 375 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,680 That's why I've decided I'm not going to explain anymore because 376 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:31,880 and to come up with a thing that's kind of funny. 377 00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:36,080 I thought I'm going to just say say what I as little as that I 378 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,520 can get away with because it wasn't telling her how much I'm 379 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,960 acknowledging she was this big time attorney and I was she was 380 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,680 still going to look at me that way and I could tell it's. 381 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:47,200 Not the. Stuff it's not. 382 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:51,160 The real It's funny how the greatest gift that has come from 383 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:56,080 all of this and the therapy in particular highlighted is what 384 00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:01,720 is really important to me like the rest of it is such a waste 385 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,520 of time and energy. How much of my life did I waste 386 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,600 in my young years on things that did not matter. 387 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:13,200 So the real gift and things like this that happen if you do the 388 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:17,240 work, grief work that we call it, is that you stop worrying 389 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,040 about what other people think. They're going to think what 390 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:20,680 they're going to think no matter what. 391 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:22,120 Well, that. Goes back to one of those 392 00:21:22,120 --> 00:21:24,360 beliefs that can create a target or whatever. 393 00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:26,920 I'm not good enough or I'm not worthy. 394 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,240 And then you get a weird trigger where you don't go to parties 395 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:34,120 because you're afraid someone's and then you become but I now. 396 00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:36,640 Look at someone like that and I'm like, how sad. 397 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,000 You know what? Like I'm analyzing that person 398 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,120 now. Like, well, what's her trauma 399 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:45,480 that she can only feel good about herself if she's bragging 400 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,320 about her law practice or whenever? 401 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:50,720 In your bag and just anybody that you like. 402 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,040 Dude, you need don't. Send me that one. 403 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,720 Meet my friend. Katie, it's like when? 404 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,080 We get hooked in someone elses experience, right, And I'm I'm 405 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,200 one thing that is is that I've just this whole year been 406 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:11,320 working towards is just as much as I can be in non judgement 407 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,880 because it's her protectors that are showing up. 408 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,200 And so if I'm not in an analyzing way, but being like, 409 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,360 whoa, that didn't feel right. I feel like I just came up 410 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:24,200 against a protector and are my parts coming out to show to 411 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,160 prove myself or to to like use humor or whatever. 412 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,480 I use to try to navigate that. Social dynamics are so tricky, 413 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,200 but one thing that I really appreciate about this work it 414 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:40,080 it's so healing that I've noticed like over thousands of 415 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:44,640 times that there are three things that rise from people 416 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,320 clearing targets. People remember their wholeness, 417 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,240 they return to love and compassion all the whole time. 418 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,240 Like those are the three common denominators. 419 00:22:55,520 --> 00:23:00,120 And it is so beautiful to see how we can all have a wide range 420 00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:03,080 of beliefs and a ways of being in the world. 421 00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:08,720 And it's these three things that we all return to as humans, 422 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,160 which is it's really beautiful. And you? 423 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,000 Well, I. Love what you said Katie, about 424 00:23:14,360 --> 00:23:17,800 it's already it's I can see that it's going to color how I handle 425 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,560 other people, even though I haven't ever done EMDR. 426 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,920 Just the idea of there are triggers that create a surge and 427 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,960 like, why did that? So I'm going to notice more 428 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,840 like, oh, this, I'm surging. Why? 429 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,000 What's the trigger? Why did I, Why is that bothering 430 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,320 me? Or why do I feel the need to 431 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:41,040 hurry up and fix instead of just let them be sad, you know? 432 00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:45,320 So I feel like I'm already gonna be a better person, so thank 433 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,440 you, of course. And Richard Schwartz's work at 434 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,760 the IFS, the self therapy, he designed it so that people can 435 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:52,880 do it on their own. Yeah. 436 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,960 So any of his work is so helpful because you can find the part 437 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:57,840 connected to this, Right? Right. 438 00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:59,280 And then just be mindful of it so. 439 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,120 People could Google Richard Schwartz. 440 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,600 Yeah, watch inside out. Well, let me ask. 441 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,760 This is the, to me one of the most important. 442 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,960 Are you taking new clients and if so, how do they reach you? 443 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:15,440 So I have a website itskatiecummingslpc.com and I 444 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,520 have one or two spots right now and then a wait list if if 445 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,320 there's but. Put it on our socials so 446 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,480 everyone and at the end of in our notes for this episode so 447 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,640 that you can find her. Thank you. 448 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,600 This has been so I thank you for your time. 449 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,920 I want to dive more into this. I want to hang. 450 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:34,320 Out all the time is what I want that. 451 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,800 Is so awesome. There's so many different ways 452 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:42,480 that you can go through this grief journey and we hope that 453 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,960 today we've shown you a couple because we touched on a couple 454 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,440 of different things all through EMDR. 455 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,960 But we're just hopeful that you can find something that works 456 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:53,680 for you. And if one thing doesn't work, 457 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,240 try something different because it depends on where you are in 458 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,280 your own trauma, what's going to work and what what you're ready 459 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,640 for, what your nervous system is ready for. 460 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:04,800 And we also. Have our insider group? 461 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,400 Yes. We want to encourage you if you 462 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,880 are looking for a space to ask more questions or to connect 463 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,200 with other widows and widowers, we have a Facebook group called 464 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,520 Every Widow Thing Insiders. We would love for you to join 465 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,520 that and obviously we're available through social media. 466 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,240 Just DMS. We want to help you move 467 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,040 forward. There is a way, there is light. 468 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,480 Keep going. We believe in you, we love you, 469 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,680 and we'll be back on another episode soon. 470 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:37,240 Bye bye.