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Welcome to the Iran 1400 Project
podcast, where we explore the 

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past, present, and possible 
futures of Iran through informed

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dialogue, independent thought, 
and diverse voices. 

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From historical insight to 
emerging narratives, we connect 

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ideas to action in the pursuit 
of a more just, inclusive, and 

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forward-looking society. 
Join us as we rethink Iran's 

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trajectory, one conversation at 
a time. 

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Today we're embarking on, well, 
quite an exploration. 

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We're looking into Iran's 
intellectual traditions. 

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It's a story that's often 
misunderstood, I think, but it's

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really revealing, tells us a lot
about Iran's past, present, and 

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maybe its future too. 
We're going to try and untangle 

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some pretty complex ideas, 
uncover some surprising things, 

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all linked to Iran's civic 
destiny, really. 

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And our guide for this journey? 
It's an article from the Iran 

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1400 Project by Wafa Mostagim. 
What's really useful here is 

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that the article itself draws on
the thinking of two very 

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distinguished scholars, Dr. 
Mehrzad Borgiardi and Doctor Ali

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Mehr Sapasi. 
Right. 

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And our goal really is to give 
you a bit of a shortcut, a way 

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to understand how Iranian 
thought has wrestled with some 

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big things, maternity, identity,
and, you know, the basic 

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question of what a just an 
inclusive society actually looks

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like. 
Now, the scholars we're looking 

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at, they do have different takes
on things, but what's key is 

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they both see this critical 
turning point in Iran after 

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1953, and crucially, both are 
calling for a renewed 

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intellectual tradition. 1 Based 
on What's the openness, civic 

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ethics, and public 
accountability? 

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OK, so to kick things off, let's
tackle a core question. 

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What does it actually mean to be
an intellectual in the Iranian 

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context this term? 
Rosenfecker. 

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And yeah, why does one of these 
scholars say they should be like

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stones in the shoe? 
That sounds uncomfortable. 

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Well, this term Rosenfecker, in 
modern Iran, it carries specific

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weight. 
It's definitely more than just, 

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say, a scholar or a specialist. 
The Rosenfecker is seen as a 

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creator of social thought. 
This is someone who is actively 

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interpreting history, critiquing
them wounds of society, and 

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trying to envision ethical 
futures. 

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And the word itself, 
Rosenfecker, it has an 

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interesting background. 
Apparently it came into Persian 

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through Ottoman Turkish, and 
they got it directly from the 

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French intellectual, which, you 
know, became famous during the 

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Dreyfus affair back in the late 
19 country France. 

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It meant public figures taking a
moral stand. 

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Exactly. 
And Doctor Bergiardi, he really 

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expands on this. 
He argues an intellectuals job 

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isn't just commentary. 
It goes beyond that. 

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There's a deep moral 
responsibility, he says, to make

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people think, to confront 
uncomfortable truths. 

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His analogy is pretty vivid. 
Intellectuals aren't like 

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restaurant waiters just serving 
up what the public wants. 

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No, there's stones in the shoe. 
They're meant to be agents of 

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discomfort, of disruption. 
So it's suggesting, yeah, a 

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challenging role, maybe an 
inconvenient one for public 

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thinkers. 
Right, a stone in the shoe. 

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So maybe think about that for a 
moment. 

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You listening? 
What does it really mean for 

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ideas to be disruptive? 
Not just comforting, it's quite 

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a metaphor. 
OK, so starting with that 

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definition, Brugiardi then 
points us to a specific 

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historical time. 
He talks about a kind of golden 

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age for Iranian intellectual 
life. 

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This period stretches from the 
19 O 6 Constitutional Revolution

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right up to the end of Reza 
Shah's reign in 1941. 

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And why golden age? 
Well, because this era saw the 

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rise of what he calls 
intellectual statesman. 

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These weren't just thinkers 
writing essays, they were 

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actively involved in building 
things, the legal system, 

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education, cultural institutions
of modern Iran. 

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So the key insight is how ideas 
were directly translating into, 

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well, nation building. 
And we're talking about some 

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really big names here, people 
like Muhammad Ali. 

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For Rugi, he was a Prime 
Minister, a philosopher and 

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translated Western classics. 
Hugely important. 

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Then there's Ahmad Khazravi, a 
historian, a social critic, and 

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interestingly, he started out as
a cleric. 

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Also Alamed Dakota, the famous 
lexicographer and satirist, and 

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Ali Akbar Davar, basically the 
founder of Iran's modern 

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judiciary. 
Plus Sade Hadiyat, the modernist

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writer. 
That kind of existential voice. 

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His work still hits hard today. 
Yeah. 

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And what's really striking is 
how many of these figures, as 

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you mentioned, Khazravi, started
in religious seminaries but then

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fully embraced modernist ideals.
It shows this incredible 

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synthesis, really, of tradition,
modernity and their intellectual

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energy was focused on building 
institutions, not just critique 

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for critique's sake. 
But this period, this time of 

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building foundations, it didn't 
last. 

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It was, well, brutally cut 
short. 

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Both Bruggerty and Mere Sapasi 
point squarely at the 1953 coup 

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that removed Prime Minister 
Mohammad Mostadeh. 

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They see this is a fundamental 
rupture. 

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It shattered that constitutional
tradition, leading into an era 

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of repression and really deep 
intellectual disillusionment. 

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Right. 
And if you zoom out, what mostly

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filled that vacuum and 
intellectually speaking was a 

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dominant nativist trend, or you 
could call it a counter 

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enlightenment discourse, Its 
main features a deep suspicion 

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of modernity, of liberalism, of 
Western influence in general. 

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And this current, it drew a 
quite a bit of inspiration from 

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certain European thinkers, 
people like Martin Heidegger, 

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his critiques of technology, 
irrationalism, they kind of 

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resonated with this feeling of 
cultural alienation. 

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And maybe Friedrich Nietzsche 
too, you know, his questioning 

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immorality, his emphasis on the 
will to power can be read as 

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rejecting those universal 
liberal values. 

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Basically they saw Western ideas
like democracy and development 

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as, I don't know, spiritually 
empty or even culturally 

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poisonous. 
And the shift in thinking 

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brought new figures to the 
forefront. 

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People like Ahmad Fardeeb, the 
philosopher who actually coined 

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that term, garbzadegi. 
It means something like West 

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toxication or West struckness. 
Then Jalal Ali Ahmad, who really

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popularized Garbzadegi, made it 
a household term, almost. 

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He painted Western influences, 
the sort of spiritual disease 

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eating away at Iranian identity.
You also had Ali Shariati, who 

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blended Islamic ideas with 
revolutionary thought, pushing 

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for a kind of purified, socially
active Islam, and Sayed Hossein 

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Nasser. 
Promoting Islamic metaphysics is

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the real alternative to secular 
modernity. 

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Oh, and even earlier there was 
Fakhruddin and Shadman, another 

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cultural critic who coined 
Ferangi ma ABI, which is sort of

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similar meaning like blind 
imitation of the West. 

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Yes, and Musa Pasi, he has a 
particularly sharp take on this 

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whole current. 
He describes it as being driven 

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by resentment and he explicitly 
links it to the European counter

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Enlightenment. 
He even suggests, quite 

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provocatively, that this line of
thinking, and it's more extreme 

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versions, actually underpinned 
fascist ideologies in Europe. 

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And he points to Heidegger's own
deeply troubling association 

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with Nazism as a kind of warning
sign. 

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It illustrates what can happen, 
he argues, when you elevate 

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cultural purity or authenticity 
above critical reason and, you 

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know, pluralism. 
So you really see this profound 

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change, don't you? 
The intellectual focus shifts 

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from building concrete 
institutions to mainly 

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critiquing these big concepts, 
modernity, the West. 

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But amidst all this, the sources
we're drawing on introduce 

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someone who's often overlooked a
really surprising figure. 

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Yeah, we're talking about Abdul 
Baha. 

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He lived quite a while ago, 1844
to 1921. 

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What makes him stand out is that
he was articulating principles 

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of what you might call ethical 
modernity way before they became

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common currency and say, 
reformist circles. 

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Later on, he offers this unique 
thread. 

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It's actually quite remarkable 
when you look at the principles 

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he was promoting back then, 
things that sound incredibly 

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current today, like gender 
equality, universal education, 

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the idea that science and 
religion can be in harmony, not 

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conflict. 
Also international cooperation, 

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peace, and crucially, the 
separation of religion and 

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politics. 
I mean, these were pretty 

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radical ideas for his time 
anywhere in the world, let alone

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in that context. 
Right. 

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And he wasn't just writing about
this stuff in isolation. 

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He actually gave public talks 
during travels in Europe and 

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North America around 1911 to 
1913, and in those talks he was 

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directly tackling many of the 
concerns that Iranian modernist 

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would debate much later. 
It shows this real global 

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engagement. 
Which does raise an interesting 

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question. 
Why was he mostly left out of 

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Iran's mainstream secular 
intellectual story? 

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Maybe it was his religious 
identity, the Baha'i faith, or 

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the political marginalization of
that community. 

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But whatever the reason, his 
contributions really represent a

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distinctively Iranian voice, 
engaging with global 

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Enlightenment ideas, proposing 
solutions to modern problems 

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from within that specific 
cultural context. 

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It's kind of like finding this 
hidden current of thought, isn't

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it? 
A real aha moment, maybe for 

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understanding the bigger picture
of Iranian thinking. 

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OK, so moving from this 
fascinating sort of sideline 

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figure, let's jump forward again
to the period after the 1979 

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Islamic Revolution. 
Now, that revolution promised 

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liberation, but ultimately it 
ended up exposing what Bergeri 

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bluntly calls the intellectual 
bankruptcy of that dominant 

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nativist tradition. 
The outcome, as we know, was 

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authoritarianism and from any 
deep disillusionment. 

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True, but even within that sense
of crisis, both Brujourdi and 

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Mitsapasi see significant signs 
of intellectual renewal starting

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to emerge. 
For instance, you see the rise 

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of religious intellectualism, 
thinkers like Kativar, Shabba 

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Stari doing really profound work
rethinking theology from within.

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There's also been a noticeable 
growth in investigative 

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journalism and of course, a much
more vibrant public discussion 

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online, plus better access to 
Western philosophical texts than

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before. 
And maybe most importantly, a 

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kind of public rethinking of 
identity itself, seeing it as 

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inherently hybrid, you know, 
embracing the pre Islamic parts,

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these log parts and the modern 
influences rather than feeling 

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forced to choose one exclusive 
heritage. 

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And Musepasi, he specifically 
calls for a return to what he 

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terms democratic modernity. 
He actually points to the 

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American philosopher John Dewey 
as a really good model here. 

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Dewey's pragmatism, his focus on
civic education, it shaped this 

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kind of hopeful, engaged public 
philosophy, one that really 

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champions individual agency, 
pluralism and strong civic 

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ethics. 
It feels like a deliberate 

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contrast to the sort of 
resentment and disillusionment 

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that took hold after 53. 
Absolutely. 

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And this is where Bougherty and 
Musepasi really come together. 

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Yeah. 
Despite their different nuances,

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both focus intensely on that 
post 1953 break in the 

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discourse. 
They both offer strong critiques

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of the intellectual trends that 
followed. 

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Perusherity focuses on maybe a 
kind of moralistic shallowness 

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he sees, while Mir Sipasi, as we
said, draws those provocative 

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parallels to European counter 
Enlightenment and even fascist 

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ideologies. 
But crucially, they both 

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envision futures rooted in 
something new. 

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Whether it's Burgiardi's call 
for a civic maturity and 

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embracing that hybrid identity 
or Merci Pasi's democratic 

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modernity, the shared message 
seems to be move past those 

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counter Enlightenment 
frameworks. 

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Reclaim an ethical, public 
thought that's grounded in real,

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active civic agency. 
OK, so let's try and connect 

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this whole intellectual story, 
this whole arc, to something 

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very current, which is the 
emergence of a new civic 

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generation in Iran today. 
This is something other articles

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in the Year on 1400 project 
explore as well. 

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Yes, and the way this generation
is described is quite telling. 

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They're often seen as post 
ideological. 

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They're digitally connected 
obviously, and seem very 

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ethically driven. 
They appear to be rejecting both

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the old extremes in a nostalgia 
for the monarchy and the current

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theocratic authoritarianism. 
They seem to be looking for 

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something else entirely. 
And what they emphasize seems 

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different too. 
Things like honesty over just 

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repeating slogans, participation
instead of polarization, and 

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demanding dignity over rigid 
dogma. 

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It feels very grounded, like a 
demand for practical ethical 

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change from the bottom up. 
It really does. 

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And that's a stark contrast to 
those earlier periods we 

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discussed. 
You had the intellectual 

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statesman shaping institutions 
from the top down. 

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Later you had thinkers calling 
for democratic civic ideals. 

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Maybe more abstractly, this new 
wave, it seems different. 

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They appear to be building from 
the ground up through things 

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like mutual aid networks, online
activism, local community 

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initiatives. 
And this is where it gets really

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interesting. 
You see those ideals we 

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mentioned from Abdul Baha, 
things like consultation, 

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truthfulness, service, kind of 
reappearing. 

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But, and this is key, not really
as theology, more as a practical

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civic ethos, How people should 
treat each other, how 

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communities should function. 
It's a fascinating example of 

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ideas finding new life in a 
totally new contest. 

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So as we wrap up this deep dive,
it's pretty clear, isn't it? 

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Iran's intellectual tradition 
isn't some straight line. 

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It's not static at all. 
It's this dynamic, constantly 

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evolving thing, always adapting 
to new realities, new 

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challenges. 
I think that's exactly right. 

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The big take away here might be 
that Iran's intellectual future 

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probably doesn't lie in looking 
backward, whether it's nostalgia

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or rigid ideology. 
Instead, it seems to be emerging

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in this new ethic, an ethic of 
inquiry, of participation, and, 

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crucially, of moral imagination.
The tradition is still alive, 

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you could say, not maybe an old 
doctrines, but in this 

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continuing, evolving search for 
justice and truth adapted for 

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today. 
And here's a really provocative 

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thought to leave you with. 
This comes straight from the 

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source material we've been 
discussing. 

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The train of thought has not 
stopped, it has changed tracks. 

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And perhaps, ultimately, what 
comes next depends less on what 

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systems or ideologies might 
collapse, and far more on what 

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rises to take its place. 
Thank you for listening to the 

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Iran 1400 Project podcast. 
The Iran 1400 Project invites 

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00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:37,960
scholars, experts, and and 
intellectuals to share their 

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00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,280
assessment of the evolution of 
institutions and ideas during 

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00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:45,840
the past 100 years to inspire a 
vision of Iran in the 1400s. 

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00:13:46,560 --> 00:13:49,600
If you found today's episode 
thought provoking, be sure to 

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00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:53,120
subscribe, share, and continue 
the conversation. 

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00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:58,640
For more content and upcoming 
events, visit iran1400.org. 

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00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:04,200
Until next time, stay engaged, 
stay informed, and stay hopeful.