1
00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:09,160
Welcome to the Iran 1400 Project
podcast, where we explore the 

2
00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:13,040
past, present, and possible 
futures of Iran through informed

3
00:00:13,040 --> 00:00:16,400
dialogue, independent thought, 
and diverse voices. 

4
00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,600
From historical insight to 
emerging narratives, we connect 

5
00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,720
ideas to action in the pursuit 
of a more just, inclusive, and 

6
00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,600
forward-looking society. 
Join us as we rethink Iran's 

7
00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:31,440
trajectory, one conversation at 
a time. 

8
00:00:50,940 --> 00:00:54,060
OK, let's unpack this. 
When we talk about justice in 

9
00:00:54,100 --> 00:00:58,720
Iran, it's more than just the 
legal stuff, right? 

10
00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:00,600
The laws, the courts. 
Absolutely. 

11
00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,720
It's always been deeply tied 
into, well, power dynamics. 

12
00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:06,360
Who's in charge? 
Who gets to define what's fair? 

13
00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:08,800
I don't know what that actually 
means for society. 

14
00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:10,920
Exactly. 
And it's a concept that's really

15
00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,280
shifted quite dramatically over 
the centuries. 

16
00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,600
Our sources today help trace 
that history. 

17
00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,800
It's fascinating and often 
pretty turbulent. 

18
00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:23,680
So our mission here is to follow
that evolution. 

19
00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:26,720
How the whole idea of justice 
and the reality of it has been 

20
00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,920
used may be sometimes I've held.
But often bent or even broken. 

21
00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,720
Yeah, from way back ancient 
traditions right up to the 

22
00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,880
challenges around faces now. 
And importantly, what these 

23
00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:40,200
sources might suggest about, you
know, reimagining justice moving

24
00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:41,760
forward. 
We'll take a journey starting 

25
00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,280
when justice was very local, 
sort of ad hoc, then through 

26
00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,760
attempts to build a national 
system, a state system, and then

27
00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:51,480
into the really radical changes 
after the 79 revolution. 

28
00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,480
And all along, how did this 
affect people, their trust in 

29
00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:56,920
the system? 
And the sources, they don't just

30
00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:58,720
list the problems, which is 
interesting. 

31
00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,880
They actually propose something 
quite compelling, this idea of 

32
00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,800
justice not just as law or or 
punishment, and not. 

33
00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,759
Just rules from above. 
But as civic infrastructure, the

34
00:02:10,759 --> 00:02:12,320
essential foundations, that's 
the. 

35
00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,760
Core idea, the ethical 
conditions really, that people 

36
00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:19,080
need to cooperate, to build 
trust, just to live together 

37
00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,360
with dignity. 
And this concept, Arim Hassami 

38
00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:24,880
explores it particularly well in
the material. 

39
00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,320
It suggests looking back 
actually. 

40
00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:29,640
And Iranian traditions. 
Yeah, deeper traditions. 

41
00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:32,680
They might offer clues for 
building a future where justice 

42
00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,640
is, you know, foundational part 
of society's bedrock, not just a

43
00:02:36,640 --> 00:02:39,320
state tool. 
So this deep dive, it's really 

44
00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,360
your shortcut to understanding 
why justice has been such a 

45
00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,920
battleground in Iran's history. 
And why thinking about it today 

46
00:02:45,920 --> 00:02:48,760
as a civic necessity, why that's
so vital? 

47
00:02:48,920 --> 00:02:50,480
OK, let's jump in. 
All right, so let's start that 

48
00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:52,520
journey. 
Late 19th century, the Kajar 

49
00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:54,760
era. 
What did justice actually look 

50
00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:56,800
like then? 
On the ground, well, the sources

51
00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:58,360
paint a picture of 
fragmentation. 

52
00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:02,200
It was incredibly fragmented, 
meaning there wasn't one single 

53
00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:06,400
clear legal authority. 
You had justice being handed out

54
00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,800
locally, sometimes by landlords,
sometimes tribal chiefs, 

55
00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,920
sometimes religious clerics in 
the shorist courts, you know, 

56
00:03:12,920 --> 00:03:16,880
following Islamic law. 
And then you also had royal 

57
00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:20,480
officials in the Earth courts 
dealing with customary stuff or 

58
00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,880
state matters. 
So like parallel systems? 

59
00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:26,600
Almost, Yeah, but messy. 
Very messy, less parallel, more 

60
00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,520
like a patchwork quilt. 
And there was this constant 

61
00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,440
underlying tension between the 
religious authorities and the 

62
00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,720
state's power, right? 
So for an ordinary person, 

63
00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,440
getting justice often really 
depended on, well, who you were,

64
00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:41,280
your status, your money, your 
connections. 

65
00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:42,800
Predictability wasn't really a 
thing then. 

66
00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,080
Or equality. 
Very hard to come by. 

67
00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,360
Yeah. 
That lack of standardization, 

68
00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:49,800
that lack of a central 
authority, it just bred a sense 

69
00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:51,560
of arbitrary rule you can 
imagine. 

70
00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:53,360
Definitely. 
Were people trying to change 

71
00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:55,080
this back then? 
Even that early? 

72
00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:56,440
Oh. 
Yes, the sources mentioned 

73
00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,000
efforts, attempts to bring in 
legal reforms, modern legal 

74
00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:04,480
training, but they hit a wall, 
significant resistance because 

75
00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,600
the people holding power in the 
old system, certain clerics, the

76
00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:13,000
landed elites, they saw these 
changes as a direct threat. 

77
00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:15,240
To their influence. 
To their influence exactly so 

78
00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,600
the key take away for this 
period, justice functioned more 

79
00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,640
like personal negotiation, 
personal arbitration vulnerable.

80
00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:23,040
To who had the upper hand? 
Totally. 

81
00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,760
And it lacked any real civic 
coherence, no unified sense of 

82
00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:30,040
legitimacy across the board. 
OK, that fragmented picture 

83
00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,880
really makes the 1906 
Constitutional Revolution seem 

84
00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,280
like a massive shift. 
Then what was the vision for 

85
00:04:36,280 --> 00:04:38,000
justice there? 
It was huge. 

86
00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,720
Iran's first big push for state 
governed by law based on a 

87
00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,880
constitution, It fundamentally 
changed the terms of the debate 

88
00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,040
away from arbitrary rule towards
legal rights. 

89
00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:50,000
A huge conceptual leap. 
Massive. 

90
00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,600
The Constitution actually set up
a formal judiciary, a separate 

91
00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,080
branch of government that was 
radical for the time. 

92
00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,600
So the idea was national courts 
moving towards laws written 

93
00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,560
down, codified. 
Precisely, and a real effort to 

94
00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:05,080
create secular legal codes. 
They looked to Europe for 

95
00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,840
models. 
French law was a big influence 

96
00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,880
developing the Iranian Civil 
Code later on that was a major 

97
00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,800
step defining processes, rights.
The sources talk about a 

98
00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,520
professional legal class, 
emerging institutions like the 

99
00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:22,040
Bar Association starting up. 
But did that old system, that 

100
00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,480
dual authority, just vanish? 
No, not overnight, not 

101
00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,400
completely. 
The religious courts, they kept 

102
00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:32,040
significant sway, especially 
over things like family law, 

103
00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,520
which just shows you the 
enduring power of the clergy. 

104
00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,280
So while the direction was 
definitely towards 

105
00:05:38,280 --> 00:05:42,400
modernization, secularization, 
that tension, that pull between 

106
00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,560
modern legal ideas and 
traditional clerical authority, 

107
00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,120
it didn't go away. 
It remained a major challenge. 

108
00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,480
So the Constitution promised 
national justice, but it was 

109
00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,000
still kind of caught between 
these competing powers. 

110
00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:55,880
Exactly. 
Limited by these competing 

111
00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:57,720
claims to sovereignty, you could
say. 

112
00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,400
OK, let's move forward then. 
The Polavi era, particularly 

113
00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,840
under Reza Shah, What's 
happening with the judiciary? 

114
00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:04,920
The sources suggest a total 
rebuild. 

115
00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:06,960
Oh it. 
Was drastic a complete overhaul?

116
00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,800
Reza Shah wanted a strong 
centralized state and secular, 

117
00:06:10,840 --> 00:06:14,240
so he systematically moved to 
bring all legal authority under 

118
00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:18,640
the state umbrella clerics 
removed from judicial posts. 

119
00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:20,960
Replaced by. 
Replaced by judges trained in 

120
00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:25,240
modern law, state approved law. 
By the 1930's, the religious 

121
00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,440
courts were either formally 
abolished or basically stripped 

122
00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,280
of most of their power. 
So building a hierarchy of 

123
00:06:31,280 --> 00:06:35,960
courts, standard procedures, 
formal training for judges, I 

124
00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:38,480
mean, on Pedro, that sounds like
a modern system. 

125
00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,200
It looked like it, yeah. 
And that professionalization 

126
00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,760
continued under his son, Mohamed
Reza Shah. 

127
00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,160
They tried to push state law 
out, even into rural areas. 

128
00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:48,800
I sense a butt coming. 
There's a. 

129
00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,120
Big butt. 
The sources really emphasize 

130
00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:53,120
this. 
Despite the modern structure, 

131
00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,600
the judiciary remained heavily 
dependent on the state, on the 

132
00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,080
Shah's political will. 
Dependent in what way? 

133
00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,720
Was it not really independent? 
Oh, that's the crux of it. 

134
00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:03,680
It wasn't designed to be truly 
independent. 

135
00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:05,920
It wasn't there to act as a 
check on state power. 

136
00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,960
It became more of a tool 
implementing the state's agenda 

137
00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,400
and, crucially, suppressing 
political opposition. 

138
00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:14,960
I see. 
And because it lacked that 

139
00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,240
independence, that political 
accountability, because the 

140
00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:23,040
public didn't genuinely trust it
as impartial, this seemingly 

141
00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,520
modern system, it never really 
put down deep roots of 

142
00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:30,800
legitimacy. 
The take away Justice took on 

143
00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,400
this modern bureaucratic form. 
Rational. 

144
00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:35,480
Maybe. 
Bureaucratic rationality, yes, 

145
00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:40,040
but it fundamentally lacked 
civic trust that buy in needed 

146
00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,920
to make it truly resilient. 
And that lack of trust that sets

147
00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,760
the stage for the massive 
upheaval of 1979, the Islamic 

148
00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:49,480
Revolution. 
This wasn't just reform, was it?

149
00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,600
This was a total transformation,
ideologically, structurally. 

150
00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:55,520
Absolutely complete 
transformation. 

151
00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,640
You had revolutionary tribunals 
popping up basically replacing 

152
00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,760
the existing courts overnight. 
The new constitution and 

153
00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,560
declared flat out all laws must 
conform to Islamic principles, 

154
00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:09,040
specifically she jurisprudence. 
The whole judiciary was 

155
00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,680
restructured, put under the 
supervision of clerical 

156
00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,160
authorities, clerical judges 
appointed. 

157
00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,480
And they brought in specific 
Islamic legal concepts like 

158
00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:18,440
kisses. 
Yes, kisses. 

159
00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:20,880
That's retribution. 
Sort of an eye for an eye, 

160
00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,320
though more complex than that. 
Had punishments. 

161
00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,840
Those are fixed, often severe 
penalties for specific crimes 

162
00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:30,720
defined in religious texts and 
tazir discretionary punishments 

163
00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,440
where the judge decides based on
Islamic guidelines. 

164
00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,159
So these became the guiding 
principles. 

165
00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,440
They became foundational for the
legal framework. 

166
00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,559
Now there are elements, you 
know, provisions for 

167
00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,679
forgiveness, compensation, 
things you could maybe see as 

168
00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,440
restorative in a sense, right? 
But the overall process of 

169
00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:50,040
justice became increasingly tied
to ideological interpretation 

170
00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:52,520
and state control. 
And what did that mean for 

171
00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:56,280
things like due process legal 
protections for defendants? 

172
00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:57,720
The sources are pretty clear on 
this. 

173
00:08:57,800 --> 00:08:59,880
They were significantly 
compromised. 

174
00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,600
Seriously undermined How so? 
The judiciary became really an 

175
00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,040
integral part of the new state 
machine, often used to enforce 

176
00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,560
ideological conformity to 
silence opposition. 

177
00:09:10,560 --> 00:09:13,880
The Bar Association lost its 
independence and the rights of 

178
00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,120
defendants, especially if you 
were a political prisoner or a 

179
00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,720
woman or from a minority group, 
were severely cut back. 

180
00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,840
So this era frames justice as 
divine discipline. 

181
00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,280
Divine discipline? 
Yeah, that was the framing. 

182
00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:29,000
But in practice, rigidly 
ideological, often inconsistent 

183
00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:34,240
and highly politically applied. 
That whole history, wow, It 

184
00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,680
really does set the context for 
the current situation, which as 

185
00:09:37,680 --> 00:09:40,960
you said, our sources describe 
pretty bluntly a system in deep 

186
00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:42,360
crisis. 
They really do. 

187
00:09:42,680 --> 00:09:46,240
That initial promise of Islamic 
justice after more than 4 

188
00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:50,680
decades now, the sources argue, 
it's been significantly eroded, 

189
00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,200
worn down by politicization, by 
repression. 

190
00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,480
The judiciary, often seen not as
independent, not as a public 

191
00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,000
service. 
As a tool primarily serving the 

192
00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,280
regime's survival, that's the 
perception described. 

193
00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:03,960
And you see the results, right? 
Right. 

194
00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:06,920
Sources point to them. 
Lack of transparency in trials, 

195
00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:09,600
arrests and verdicts that seem 
politically driven. 

196
00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,120
Lawyers getting harassed, even 
jailed just for defending 

197
00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,120
certain clients. 
And tragically, these incredibly

198
00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,720
high execution rates. 
All flagged in the sources as 

199
00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,600
symptoms of this crisis. 
The language of justice might 

200
00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:23,080
still be used by the 
authorities. 

201
00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:26,520
But it rings hollow for many. 
Widely viewed as hollow, yes. 

202
00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,840
And maybe the most critical 
point the sources make is about 

203
00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,680
how ordinary citizens experience
the system. 

204
00:10:32,680 --> 00:10:33,440
How? 
They feel it. 

205
00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:37,320
Exactly, it's not seen as a 
place you turn to for fairness 

206
00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,240
for getting a wrong righted or 
settling A dispute impartially. 

207
00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,960
It's seen as something else. 
Often perceived as a mechanism 

208
00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,600
of fear of control. 
And that brings us right to that

209
00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:52,960
core idea for today's deep dive 
justice seen as this monopolized

210
00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:56,600
state function detached from the
people, from legitimacy, from 

211
00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,040
ethical trust control without 
consent. 

212
00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,040
That detachment is absolutely 
key, because when that link 

213
00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:05,000
breaks down the link between 
justice, public trust and the 

214
00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,640
whole social contract, it has 
profound consequences for 

215
00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,920
stability, for cooperation, for 
the basic health of society. 

216
00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:13,600
OK. 
So we've traced this difficult 

217
00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,280
history leading to this present 
crisis pieces of trust. 

218
00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:18,760
But as you mentioned, the 
sources don't just leave it 

219
00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:20,240
there. 
They offer a different path, a 

220
00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,000
different vision. 
This idea from Aram Hassami 

221
00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,280
Justice as Civic infrastructure.
What does that actually mean? 

222
00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:27,880
Like. 
Practically, it's a really 

223
00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,680
powerful shift in thinking 
instead of seeing justice 

224
00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:34,360
mainly, as you know, laws 
enforced by the state or. 

225
00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:35,960
Is just an ideology. 
Right. 

226
00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,280
Hassami suggests viewing it as 
something more fundamental, a 

227
00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,760
civic ethic. 
Think about like the invisible 

228
00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:44,800
networks that make a city work. 
Plumbing. 

229
00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:46,680
Power grids. 
Exactly. 

230
00:11:46,680 --> 00:11:48,520
The things you don't see but 
rely on. 

231
00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:53,240
Justice, in this sense, is the 
ethical plumbing or wiring that 

232
00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:57,960
allows society to function, to 
cooperate, build trust, that 

233
00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,520
engage in dialogue. 
And ensure people can just live 

234
00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:02,240
with basic dignity. 
Precisely. 

235
00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:04,400
It's not only about the courts 
and laws, but about the 

236
00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,840
underlying ethical conditions in
society that make fairness even 

237
00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:09,680
possible. 
So fostering mutual 

238
00:12:09,680 --> 00:12:13,880
responsibility, transparency, 
not just as legal rules, but as 

239
00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,760
like deeply held value. 
As civic values, yes. 

240
00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,800
And the sources argue, this 
isn't some totally new alien 

241
00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:22,440
idea for Iran. 
It connects to deeper roots. 

242
00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,200
You mentioned historical roots 
earlier, like the ancient 

243
00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,640
Zoroastrian idea of Asha. 
Yes, Asha, it represents this 

244
00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,320
fundamental concept of moral 
order, truth, righteousness, 

245
00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:35,520
something believed to structure 
the whole universe and human 

246
00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:39,280
life justly. 
Then in Shi Islam you have idle 

247
00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,000
justice. 
It's a core attribute of God, 

248
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,680
but also a human duty, 
connecting divine justice to how

249
00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:50,120
people should behave. 
And even in sort of newer values

250
00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,200
based traditions that emerge 
from the 19th century onwards, 

251
00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,240
there's often this emphasis on 
justice as a principle that 

252
00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,400
links your personal integrity to
the well-being of the whole 

253
00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,640
community. 
Social Prosperity. 

254
00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,080
Like the Baha'i perspective 
mentioned in the materials, 

255
00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,920
framing justice as the moral 
foundation needed for collective

256
00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,680
life, connecting individual 
dignity and the prosperity of 

257
00:13:12,680 --> 00:13:15,480
everyone. 
These different threads across 

258
00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,160
centuries, across belief 
systems, they all point to 

259
00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,760
justice being fundamental not 
just to law but to social order,

260
00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,120
to human flourishing. 
The sources also bring in Abbas 

261
00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,360
Amanat's analysis here, 
suggesting that the breakdown of

262
00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:30,680
independent justice often 
happens because of those 

263
00:13:30,680 --> 00:13:33,960
unresolved tensions, religious 
versus state authority and the 

264
00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,440
erosion of public trust. 
And if people today are calling 

265
00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,840
for azadi, which means liberty, 
freedom but carries that deeper 

266
00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,440
sense of dignity, then justice 
understood in the civic 

267
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,480
infrastructure way, is like the 
necessary framework to actually 

268
00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:49,640
support that dignity. 
That's the connection being 

269
00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:51,400
made. 
It's about shifting the lens 

270
00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,080
from justice as the state's 
monopoly. 

271
00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,400
To justice as a basic condition 
for a healthy, functioning 

272
00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:58,840
society. 
OK. 

273
00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:03,160
So if that's the vision justice 
as civic infrastructure, how do 

274
00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,320
the sources suggest moving 
towards it? 

275
00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:06,960
What would that look like in 
practice? 

276
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:08,960
Well, they outlined some key 
components. 

277
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,120
First, building genuinely 
independent judicial 

278
00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,080
institutions. 
Really independent. 

279
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:15,080
Crucial. 
Absolutely. 

280
00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:19,480
Second, ensuring equal access to
justice and fair due process for

281
00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,680
everyone, regardless of their 
status, their beliefs, anything.

282
00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,520
Universal Access. 
Yes, and 3rd, cultivating A 

283
00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:27,960
broader culture of fairness and 
transparency. 

284
00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:29,320
This isn't just about 
courtrooms. 

285
00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,280
What's wider than that? 
Much wider it's about 

286
00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,840
interactions in daily life and 
how government offices work and 

287
00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:37,440
public discussions and how 
people treat each other. 

288
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:39,800
And this all links back to that 
idea you mentioned earlier, 

289
00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,080
civic ownership. 
Fundamentally, the argument in 

290
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,200
the sources is that justice 
can't be truly effective or 

291
00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,800
legitimate if it's seen as 
belonging only to the state or 

292
00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,560
only to one particular group. 
It needs to be reclaimed. 

293
00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:56,560
Reclaimed and owned by the 
people themselves, drawing 

294
00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,880
strength from their shared 
cultural memory, their ethical 

295
00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:03,000
hopes, their everyday 
experiences of what's fair and 

296
00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,840
unfair. 
So real justice, according to 

297
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,200
this view, isn't just going to 
come from new laws handed down 

298
00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:10,520
from the top. 
Unlikely. 

299
00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,400
It needs to be built from the 
ground up by citizens who are 

300
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,560
committed to defending dignity, 
demanding accountability. 

301
00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,160
And cultivating that shared 
ethical horizon you mentioned. 

302
00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,160
Exactly. 
It's not just about changing the

303
00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,800
rules of the game, it's about 
fundamentally shifting who feels

304
00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,000
ownership of the game and what 
moral compass guides it. 

305
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,000
As one source puts it, it's not 
just about the law. 

306
00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,600
It's about who we collectively 
aspire to become as a society. 

307
00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:37,560
We've really covered a lot of 
ground. 

308
00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,240
We've journeyed through this 
complex history of justice in 

309
00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,640
Iran, seeing how it's been 
shaped by power, by religion, 

310
00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,480
that constant tension between 
tradition and modernity. 

311
00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,280
We saw that fragmented system 
back in the Lee Kujar era, 

312
00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,520
justice as personal arbitration,
really lacking that civic 

313
00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:55,600
coherence. 
Then the promise of national 

314
00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,240
justice that came with the 
Constitutional Revolution. 

315
00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,200
A big step towards a law 
governed state but still 

316
00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,120
wrestling with those competing 
authorities. 

317
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,040
Right. 
And then the Pallavi era's 

318
00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,960
attempt at building that 
centralized secular judiciary, 

319
00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,480
it had that form, that 
bureaucratic rationality. 

320
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,840
But lacked the deep public trust
which kind of paved the way for 

321
00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,120
more change. 
Exactly leading into the Islamic

322
00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,160
Republic's radical 
restructuring, framing justice 

323
00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:24,040
as divine discipline, but often 
resulting in a system perceived 

324
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:28,360
as well ideologically rigid, yet
inconsistently applied and 

325
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,600
politically controlled. 
And that brings us to today, 

326
00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,400
where, as our sources detail so 
powerfully, the justice system 

327
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,800
is often experienced as control 
without consent. 

328
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,800
Yeah, a state function detached 
from public legitimacy, from 

329
00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,400
ethical trust. 
An environment where fear can 

330
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,280
over shadow fairness, really 
damaging that vital social 

331
00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,080
contract. 
But crucially, the sources we 

332
00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:52,880
dug into offer that powerful 
alternative vision, reimagining 

333
00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:56,400
justice not just as law, but as 
ethical infrastructure. 

334
00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:00,040
That's civic ecology, essential 
for trust, for dignity, for 

335
00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,560
social order. 
And this vision, it resonates 

336
00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:04,240
with those deep Iranian 
traditions. 

337
00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:08,160
We talked about Akisha Arag, 
modern values based teachings 

338
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:12,119
about collective well-being. 
It calls for justice to be a 

339
00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,880
civic ethic building. 
Independent institutions 

340
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,520
ensuring equal access, fostering
transparency, cultivating 

341
00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:20,040
fairness right from the ground 
up. 

342
00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:24,319
It suggests that real justice in
Iran needs to be reclaimed on by

343
00:17:24,319 --> 00:17:28,680
the people, recognizing that, as
some analysis implies, justice 

344
00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,360
is the structure needed to 
uphold azadi, that sense of 

345
00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:33,080
dignity and freedom. 
Absolutely. 

346
00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:36,040
This deep dive really shows how 
the state of justice is so 

347
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,800
intrinsically linked to the 
relationship between people and 

348
00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,640
power to the health of the 
social contract itself. 

349
00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,320
So here's a thought maybe to 
leave you with If justice really

350
00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,680
is the ethical infrastructure of
a society, what is the current 

351
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:50,120
state of that infrastructure in 
Iran? 

352
00:17:50,120 --> 00:17:51,720
Tell us about the society 
itself. 

353
00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:56,200
And building on that, if justice
isn't just about laws or 

354
00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:00,120
systems, but as that source 
suggested about who we want to 

355
00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:03,440
become collectively, how might 
the shared aspirations, the 

356
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,720
shared ethical vision of the 
Iranian people actually shape 

357
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:08,760
the path forward for justice in 
their country? 

358
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,520
Thank you for listening to the 
Iran 1400 Project podcast. 

359
00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:27,760
The Iran 1400 Project invites 
scholars, experts, and 

360
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,680
intellectuals to share their 
assessment of the evolution of 

361
00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,760
institutions and ideas during 
the past 100 years to inspire a 

362
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:39,200
vision of Iran in the 1400s. 
If you found today's episode 

363
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:43,200
thought provoking, be sure to 
subscribe, share, and continue 

364
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,840
the conversation. 
For more content and upcoming 

365
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:53,000
events, visit iran1400.org. 
Until next time, stay engaged, 

366
00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,360
stay informed, and stay hopeful.