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Welcome to the Iran 1400 Project
podcast, where we explore the 

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past, present, and possible 
futures of Iran through informed

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dialogue, independent thought, 
and diverse voices. 

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From historical insight to 
emerging narratives, we connect 

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ideas to action in the pursuit 
of a more just, inclusive, and 

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forward-looking society. 
Join us as we rethink Iran's 

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trajectory, one conversation at 
a time. 

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Today, we're taking a deep dive 
into a question that's well more

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relevant than ever, the very 
nature of unity and national 

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identity in Iran. 
This isn't just about, you know,

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a country on a map. 
It's a civilization. 

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Absolutely layered with 
incredible contradictions, these

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powerful continuities and 
collective dreams stretching 

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back millennia. 
And for this deep dive, we're 

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drawing our core fights from a 
really fantastic piece of 

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research. 
It's called Unity, Identity and 

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Civic Belonging in Iran. 
It's part of the Iran 1400 

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project written by Wafaa 
Mushtikim. 

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Ah. 
Yes, a really insightful source,

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and our mission today really is 
to explore how Iran it pretty 

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much every critical juncture in 
his long history has grappled 

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with this profound question of 
unity. 

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Right. 
What does it actually mean? 

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Exactly who gets to define it, 
and how can it, you know, 

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realistically be preserved? 
The Iran 1400 project really 

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zeroes in on these core 
questions, like what kind of 

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unity can hold space for 
difference? 

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That's key. 
And what kind of national 

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identity can emerge from 
pluralism rather than erasure? 

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Big questions. 
Huge questions. 

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And this isn't just some 
academic discussion, is it for 

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the history books. 
What this research really 

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highlights is that we're talking
about a very current, very 

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pressing context in Iran. 
Things like, you know, growing 

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generational divides, regional 
marginalization, heartbreaking 

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gender based repression and 
widespread civic unrest. 

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I mean, you just have to think 
about the powerful woman life 

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freedom movement. 
It resonated around the world. 

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Precisely. 
Yeah. 

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And the key argument the authors
put forward is that true unity, 

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it needs to be rooted in 
something far more profound than

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just, you know, top down 
definitions. 

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OK, like what? 
It needs to be rooted in what 

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they call civic belonging. 
Civic Belonging. 

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Yeah, which is about a shared 
sense of community, mutual 

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responsibility, OK Also ethical 
interdependence, meaning we 

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really get our moral reliance on
each other. 

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Right. 
And an evolving concept of 

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Iranian citizenry. 
Yeah. 

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That's the core framework we'll 
be exploring today, you know, in

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depth. 
So the challenges today are 

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undeniable, but the paper 
immediately zeroes in on the 

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urgency of this question of 
unity right now in Iran. 

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What are the current dynamics 
making this such a pressing 

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issue? 
Well, the contemporary 

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challenges are indeed very 
pressing. 

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Those growing generational 
divides you mentioned, the 

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regional marginalization, 
ongoing gender based repression 

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and the civic unrest, they're 
all sort of bubbling to the 

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surface. 
You really feel it. 

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You do. 
And when you hear slogans like 

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woman, life, freedom or the 
distinct chance from, say, 

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ethnic and religious minorities,
it's a clear indication that 

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Iranian society is actively 
seeking a unity that isn't 

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simply, you know, defined from 
above. 

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OK, so not imposed. 
Exactly. 

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It signals A fundamental 
reevaluation of what holds 

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society together. 
That idea of unity not being 

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from above is fascinating. 
But if that's the case, then 

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what does define Iranian 
identity? 

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Where do people find that common
ground? 

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Well, he leads us directly back 
to that idea of unity being 

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rooted in civic belonging. 
OK, that's shared sense. 

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That shared sense of community 
and responsibility. 

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Yeah. 
And ethical interdependence and 

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a truly evolving understanding 
of Iranian citizenry. 

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And what's powerful, I think, is
that this deep dive won't just 

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explore these as, like, abstract
ideas. 

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No, We'll look at them through 
the lenses of Irans history, its

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philosophy, moments of civic 
resistance, and even proposals 

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for institutional design. 
You know, after hearing about 

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the historical push for unity, 
what truly stands out in this 

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research, for me anyway, is the 
revelation that Iran also 

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possesses this incredible 
indigenous tradition of 

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embracing diversity. 
Yes, that's often overlooked. 

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Can you walk us through some of 
those powerful examples? 

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Absolutely. 
Let's start with Iran's rich, 

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poetic and mystical traditions. 
Immensely influential figures 

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like Bedell Dalavi, for 
instance, didn't see 

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multiplicity as a threat, Not at
all. 

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He saw it as a reflection of 
truth's richness. 

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Interesting. 
And Rumi maybe more famously 

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wrote, the lamps are different, 
the light is the same. 

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Beautiful line. 
Isn't it highlighting a shared 

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essence beneath all the surface 
distinctions? 

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And then there's Saudi's 
immortal verse, which you know 

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you can find at the entrance in 
the United Nations. 

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Oh. 
Wow, I didn't know that was 

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Saudi. 
Yes, the children of Adam are 

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limbs of one another. 
Incredible. 

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So this tradition frames unity 
not as sameness, but as a shared

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humanity grounded in humility 
and mutual care. 

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It offers a profound civic 
rationale for coexistence. 

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And building on this, you have 
the Baha'i Faith, which emerged 

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in mid 19th century Iran. 
It introduced a really 

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compelling civic model of unity 
and diversity. 

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Despite facing persecution, 
right? 

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Exactly. 
Despite significant 

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marginalization, the Baha'i 
community has advanced this 

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philosophy, where unity is seen 
as a societal strength. 

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Not, you know, a burden. 
How so? 

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Well, Abdul Baha, a respected 
moral thinker, described unity 

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not as uniformity but as the 
harmonious cooperation of 

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diverse elements like an 
orchestra. 

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And this vision has practical 
civic implications like 

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consultation where everyone's 
voice is ideally heard, 

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nonpartisan administration to 
ensure fairness and equal 

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participation in community life.
So real world application, yes. 

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Recovering this legacy, the 
research argues, means 

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recognizing an overlooked strand
of Iranian civic thought. 

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It offers a values based 
framework for pluralism that 

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really deepens our understanding
of citizenry. 

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And finally, we see this 
pluralist tradition really at 

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play during Irans Constitutional
Revolution 1905 to 1911 a. 

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Pivotal. 
Moment absolutely pivotal. 

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This was a period where Iran 
started imagining a nation held 

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together not by bloodline or 
religious creed, but by law and 

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citizenship. 
A major shift. 

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Thinkers like Ahmad Khazravi and
Muhammad Ali Faroi were 

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advocating for a civic identity 
based on rational governance. 

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And even minority leaders of the
time were calling for things 

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like federalism and linguistic 
recognition, you know, to foster

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genuine inclusion. 
Were those ideas adopted? 

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Well, no. 
Though these aspirations were 

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ultimately interrupted, they 
revealed this deep desire to 

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forge unity through 
institutional pluralism and an 

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early vision of Iranian 
citizenry grounded in equal 

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rights and civic participation. 
It was there. 

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That's a powerful revelation, 
especially when, like you said, 

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many might only see Iran through
a lens of imposed unity. 

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Exactly. 
But if these pluralist 

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traditions are so deeply rooted,
why do we see so much internal 

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conflict and suppression today? 
What happened between those 

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ideals and the current reality? 
That's exactly where the story 

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gets, well, complex. 
These historical threads, they 

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show a deep seated tradition of 
pluralism. 

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Clearly. 
What's fascinating here is how 

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these different traditions you 
know, from poetry to civic 

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movements, they all point 
towards a similar underlying 

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principle. 
Which is. 

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That true unity can encompass 
and even be enriched by 

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diversity. 
It's not an either. 

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These historical threads really 
paint a fascinating picture of 

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Iran's internal dynamics. 
But let's Fast forward a bit now

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and see how these ideas of 
national identity have actually 

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evolved over the last century or
so, shaped not just by state 

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ideologies but crucially by 
those bottom up movements too. 

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Indeed, so under the Pilavi 
monarchy 1925 to 1979, national 

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identity was quite deliberately 
centered on Persian heritage 

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parking back to pre Islamic 
empires and this narrative of 

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modernization. 
Right the Shah's vision. 

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Exactly. 
Their slogan was basically one 

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nation, one language, one 
history. 

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Very homogenizing. 
Very. 

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And while this approach did 
foster a sense of national pride

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and some modernization, and no 
doubt it explicitly excluded 

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Irans ethnic, linguistic and 
religious diversity, often 

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marginalizing non Persian groups
pretty severely. 

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So a very top down, almost 
Persian first identity, was 

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there a significant cost to that
approach? 

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Oh, absolutely. 
It created divisions that would,

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you know, later resurface quite 
dramatically. 

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OK then, with the rise of the 
Islamic Republic from 1979 to 

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around 2009. 
The revolution, yes. 

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Identity was redefined 
dramatically through Shia Islam 

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and revolutionary resistance. 
National belonging became sort 

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of tethered to ideological 
loyalty. 

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So loyalty to the system. 
Pretty much. 

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And this meant religious 
minorities, secular Iranians, 

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non Persian ethnic groups. 
They were often sidelined or 

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sometimes outright suppressed. 
Right. 

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This model sought unity through 
spiritual hegemony, let's call 

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it, but it came at the cost of 
pluralist inclusion and a shared

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sense of citizenry. 
That link was broken for many, 

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but then the 2009 green movement
marked a new turning point. 

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I remember that. 
Yeah, what began as an electoral

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protest quickly evolved into 
this civic awakening really that

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challenged this imposed unity. 
Well, slogans like We are all 

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together and Hope is the seed of
our identity explicitly rejected

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those ideological and ethnic 
divisions. 

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This movement really embraced 
the idea of shared citizenship 

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and demanded legal and 
democratic rights for all 

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Iranians regardless of 
background. 

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It was a revival of that crucial
bottom up vision of Iranian 

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citizenry and most recently, of 
course, the 2022 protests. 

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Sparked by Masa Amini's death. 
Exactly Ignited by the tragic 

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death of Masai Gina Amini, these
protests powerfully elevated 

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dignity, bodily autonomy and 
universal rights as central to 

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Iranian identity. 
Led by women, youth, yes. 

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Led by women, youth and 
marginalized communities, the 

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slogan Woman, Life, Freedom just
cut across ethnic, gender and 

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generational lines in a way we 
hadn't really seen. 

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Before everywhere it. 
Really. 

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Was it redefined unity not as 
obedience to an ideology, but as

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solidarity and pursuit of 
dignity? 

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A profound shift. 
Absolutely. 

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It powerfully affirmed that 
Iranian citizenry must include 

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all voices, not just those 
deemed loyal to the state. 

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It's clear that these narratives
of national identity are, as the

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source says, deeply contested. 
So, given all these shifts and 

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struggles, what does this all 
mean for achieving true unity 

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today? 
What are the biggest hurdles 

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right now? 
Well, the research lays out the 

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significant barriers to civic 
unity, and they are substantial.

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The Iranian state continues to 
define belonging in very narrow 

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ideological terms. 
That's one major thing. 

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Ethnic and religious minorities 
still face systemic legal and 

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social discrimination. 
Ongoing issue. 

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Big time, and civic dissent is 
essentially criminalized, which 

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shuts down vital avenues for 
dialogue and change. 

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Silencing voices. 
Precisely. 

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And even within the diaspora, 
you see political fragmentation 

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and frankly, disinformation 
campaigns that have hindered the

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development of a cohesive civic 
vision. 

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So challenges both inside and 
out. 

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Yes. 
So yes, these narratives of 

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national identity are deeply 
contested, and a shared 

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understanding of Iranian 
citizenry remains, I'd say, 

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aspirational rather than truly 
institutionalized. 

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Yet. 
That's a comprehensive list of 

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challenges, which brings us to 
the proposed solution in the 

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research toward a civic 
belonging Yes. 

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What exactly does this entail, 
given all these deep seated 

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issues? 
Well, what clearly emerges from 

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this history, I think, is not 
the failure of unity itself, 

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yeah, but rather the failure of 
top down exclusionary visions of

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unity. 
Those have consistently failed. 

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OK, makes sense. 
So instead, the Iran 1400 

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project into 3 words. 
Advocate for civic belonging. 

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Define that a bit more. 
It's essentially a participant 

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recipitory framework. 
The idea is that all Iranians, 

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regardless of background belief 
location, are equal agents in 

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shaping their society. 
Active involvement. 

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Active involvement, not passive 
reception. 

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It's key. 
And at the heart of this 

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framework is a renewed call for 
Iranian citizenship, it 

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conceived. 
Differently as a. 

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Unifying narrative rooted not in
bloodline belief or ideology, 

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but in shared rights, mutual 
responsibility, and moral 

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agency. 
So more ethical. 

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Exactly. 
Citizenship here isn't just a 

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legal status. 
It's conceived as a civic and 

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ethical identity that truly 
invites every Iranian, wherever 

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they reside, to participate in 
shaping the nation's future. 

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Political scientist Aram Hassami
frames this really well. 

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I think he says it's a moral 
task, stating unity without 

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plurality is tyranny. 
Diversity without unity is 

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fragmentation. 
Wow, that really captures the 

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tension. 
It does. 

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It's a powerful warning and 
maybe a guiding principle. 

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And historian Abbas Amanat adds 
another layer. 

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He reminds us that Iranian 
identity has always been defined

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by dynamic dualities. 
Dynamic dualities, yeah. 

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Essentially contrasting forces 
that have shaped its very 

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character through history. 
Like what? 

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Think of the tensions between 
Din and Dolet face and state, 

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OK? 
Or the concept of Iran and an 

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Iran self and other in national 
identity, right? 

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And even the internal push and 
pull between boom and bar, the 

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center and the periphery of the 
country itself. 

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Interesting. 
Reconciling these, Amanda not 

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00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:57,240
argues, requires not enforced 
consensus but inclusive 

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institutions, participatory 
dialogue and ethical public 

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discourse. 
Hard work, necessary work, Unity

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and diversity, the research 
stresses, is not an abstract 

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dream. 
It is a political and civic 

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necessity for national renewal 
right. 

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And crucially, it must be built 
from the ground up through fair 

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laws, inclusive education, 
consultative governance and a 

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shared commitment to the Iranian
citizenry. 

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Bottom up reinforcement. 
What a powerful, forward-looking

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message this research delivers. 
It truly highlights that it 

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won't be a single ideology or 
faction that scripts Iran's 

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future. 
No, but the many voices 

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insisting on dignity, 
participation and shared 

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responsibility. 
Precisely, the research 

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00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:43,480
concludes that Iranian citizens,
conceived in this broad ethical 

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00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:48,400
way, offer a unifying narrative 
capable of fostering pluralism 

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without demanding uniformity. 
That's the. 

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Goal. 
That's the goal. 

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00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,480
And this narrative, it stresses,
is not a Western export. 

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00:14:55,840 --> 00:15:00,120
It is a civic ideal deeply 
rooted in Iranian history and 

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increasingly voiced by its 
people. 

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Important distinction. 
Very ultimately, the powerful 

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00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,200
metaphor here, which I really 
like, is that Iran is not a 

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puzzle to be solved, but a 
mosaic to be honored. 

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What an incredible deep dive. 
We've really journeyed through 

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centuries of Iranian history, 
haven't we? 

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We have examining how these 
profound questions of unity and 

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national identity have been 
debated, imposed, and ultimately

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reimagined from the ground up. 
This concept of civic belonging 

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as a foundation for a diverse 
society really gives you a lot 

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00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:32,000
to consider. 
It does. 

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00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:36,160
And, you know, given Iran's rich
yet often suppressed history of 

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00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,000
pluralism that we've discussed, 
here's maybe a thought for you, 

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00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:43,600
the listener, to Mull over what 
specific, concrete steps could 

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00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:48,760
actually be taken today, right 
now, to foster those inclusive 

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00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,720
institutions in that 
participatory dialogue that are 

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00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:55,400
essential for building a a truly
civic belonging from the ground 

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00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:56,960
up. 
What does that look like in 

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practice? 
A vital question for our current

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00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:00,480
moment. 
Thank you for joining us on this

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00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,800
deep dive. 
My pleasure and we encourage you

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00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,040
to continue your own exploration
of these vital topics. 

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00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,840
Thank you for listening to the 
Iran 1400 Project podcast. 

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00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:25,080
The Iran 1400 Project invites 
scholars, experts, and 

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00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,000
intellectuals to share their 
assessment of the evolution of 

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00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:32,080
institutions and ideas during 
the past 100 years to inspire a 

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00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:36,520
vision of Iran in the 1400s. 
If you found today's episode 

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00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:40,520
thought provoking, be sure to 
subscribe, share, and continue 

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00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:44,160
the conversation. 
For more content and upcoming 

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00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:50,280
events, visit iran1400.org. 
Until next time, stay engaged, 

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00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,640
stay informed, and stay hopeful.