1
00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:09,160
Welcome to the Iran 1400 Project
podcast, where we explore the 

2
00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:13,040
past, present, and possible 
futures of Iran through informed

3
00:00:13,040 --> 00:00:16,400
dialogue, independent thought, 
and diverse voices. 

4
00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,600
From historical insight to 
emerging narratives, we connect 

5
00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,720
ideas to action in the pursuit 
of a more just, inclusive, and 

6
00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,640
forward-looking society. 
Join us as we rethink Iran's 

7
00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:31,480
trajectory, one conversation at 
a time. 

8
00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:56,120
Today we're embarking on a 
really fascinating journey into 

9
00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:00,080
a concept that is anything but 
static independence. 

10
00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:05,680
Specifically, we'll be exploring
estacal or independence in Iran 

11
00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:10,000
and looking at how its meaning 
has just profoundly shifted over

12
00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,400
the last century or so. 
What I find truly fascinating 

13
00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,560
really is how this idea, which, 
you know, started so clearly 

14
00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,680
defined as resistance against 
foreign intervention, colonial 

15
00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,720
powers, Cold War powers, it just
took such unexpected turns. 

16
00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:25,560
It's a remarkable 
transformation, isn't it? 

17
00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,560
Yeah, the core idea of 
independence in Iran has 

18
00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,760
actually moved from being, well,
primarily measured by its 

19
00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:34,960
distance from the West to 
increasingly being defined by 

20
00:01:34,960 --> 00:01:38,800
its proximity to civic freedom 
within Iran itself. 

21
00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:43,480
It really shows how a powerful 
concept can be reinterpreted to 

22
00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:45,400
address entirely different 
challenges over time. 

23
00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:48,400
So our mission for this deep 
dive, then, is to truly unpack 

24
00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:52,240
how Estequal has functioned as 
this incredibly powerful, almost

25
00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:55,000
almost a living narrative. 
Yeah, that's a good way to put 

26
00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:56,640
it. 
It's been wielded by different 

27
00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:00,480
political actors throughout 
history to, you know, affirm 

28
00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:04,760
legitimacy, consolidate power or
sometimes even resist reform. 

29
00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,440
We're going to trace its path 
not just as an abstract idea, 

30
00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:10,800
but as something that has really
shaped institutions. 

31
00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:12,440
Absolutely. 
And to understand this 

32
00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,440
evolution, I think we have to 
start with the ideational 

33
00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,520
shifts, particularly during the 
Pelavi era, OK, You saw a 

34
00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,760
significant foreign presence 
back then, British, Russians, 

35
00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:26,440
later Americans, manifesting 
through things like schools, 

36
00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,320
language institutes, media 
outlets, advisory missions. 

37
00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:32,120
Right, all sorts of things. 
Yeah, and many Iranians perceive

38
00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:35,600
these not just as, you know, 
benign foreign influence, but as

39
00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:39,120
cultural encroachment or even a 
kind of soft imperialism. 

40
00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,320
And this wasn't just a quiet 
observation, was it? 

41
00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,480
It sparked a pretty strong 
nationalist backlash, I imagine.

42
00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:46,640
Oh, definitely. 
For instance, Reza Shah in his 

43
00:02:46,640 --> 00:02:49,240
early nationalist efforts 
started curtailing foreign 

44
00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:51,400
missionary schools in 
centralized education. 

45
00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,200
What was the driving force 
behind that? 

46
00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:58,040
Well, the goal was explicit 
nation building, trying to bring

47
00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:02,280
a unified Iranian identity to 
the forefront, though you know, 

48
00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,000
sometimes this came at the 
expense of minority education. 

49
00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,040
It has to be said. 
This era also gave us Jalal Al 

50
00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,400
Ahmad's incredibly influential 
concept of garb sedegi. 

51
00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,160
West Toxication. 
Exactly W toxication. 

52
00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,240
It was a sharp critique of 
uncritical westernization, 

53
00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,640
highlighting Iran's growing 
dependency on foreign capital 

54
00:03:21,640 --> 00:03:23,880
and technocratic elites imported
values. 

55
00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,640
It really captured this deep 
unease many felt, and 

56
00:03:27,640 --> 00:03:30,240
interestingly, the independence 
Development strategy, which is 

57
00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,800
something explored by the Iran 
1400 project, emerged back then 

58
00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:35,720
as an early example of domestic 
planning. 

59
00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,640
It was framed explicitly to 
resist external dependency, but 

60
00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:41,320
still engaged with global 
modernity. 

61
00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,400
So Garb Zadagi really captured 
this deep unease. 

62
00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,920
Did that concept, did it 
directly influence policies or 

63
00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,360
public sentiment in a tangible 
way that then sort of pave the 

64
00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,960
path for the Islamic revival? 
It absolutely laid significant 

65
00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,720
groundwork, this intellectual 
ferment, this unease, it really 

66
00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:03,000
set the stage for the Islamic 
revival which brought a new anti

67
00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,160
imperialist identity leading up 
to the 79 revolution. 

68
00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:10,000
And Ayatollah Khomeini 
fundamentally reframed 

69
00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,640
independence here. 
He presented it as a well a 

70
00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:16,440
spiritual imperial by denouncing
the Shah's ties to the West, 

71
00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,399
portraying Western influence not
just as political interference 

72
00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:24,040
but as an existential threat to 
Iran's Islamic identity. 

73
00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:29,400
I see, so if Islam became the 
ultimate bulwark, how did that 

74
00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,600
then manifest in the immediate 
post revolution period? 

75
00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,600
Precisely. 
For Khomeini, Islam itself was 

76
00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,200
presented as the ultimate 
bulwark against imperialism, 

77
00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,000
This elevated independence 
making it both a national and a 

78
00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,640
religious duty. 
A duty yes, and the iconic 

79
00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,200
revolutionary slogan, You know, 
neither E nor West, but the 

80
00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,160
Islamic Republic perfectly 
encapsulated this whole ethos. 

81
00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,560
It guided Iran's post 
revolutionary foreign policy, 

82
00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,560
definitely its initial alignment
with the non aligned movement, 

83
00:04:55,880 --> 00:05:00,280
although as we know practical 
ties later on with powers like 

84
00:05:00,280 --> 00:05:04,480
Russia and China, well they 
complicated that ideal of pure 

85
00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,720
non alignment. 
Sure, reality bites, OK? 

86
00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:11,040
This historical context brings 
us more towards how ethical is 

87
00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:14,440
understood today, especially 
through Supreme Leader Ali 

88
00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:18,080
Khamenei's contemporary framing.
He frequently invokes what he 

89
00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,440
calls a soft war. 
What? 

90
00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:21,760
What exactly does he mean by 
that? 

91
00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:25,120
He describes it as essentially A
psychological and cultural 

92
00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:30,280
campaign allegedly waged by the 
West aimed at eroding Iran's 

93
00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,160
Islamic values. 
So this modern iteration of 

94
00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:35,160
independence has really shifted 
focus. 

95
00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,960
It's less about territorial 
sovereignty like in the old anti

96
00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,120
colonial days and more about 
protecting ideological and 

97
00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:42,920
cultural frontiers. 
A different kind of 

98
00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:44,640
battleground. 
A very different battleground, 

99
00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:46,480
yes. 
Now, while comedy frames this 

100
00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:49,520
soft war externally looking 
outwards, what's really 

101
00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,200
compelling I think, is how 
younger generations within Iran 

102
00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,440
seem to be reinterpreting 
independence. 

103
00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,520
Oh, absolutely. 
You see Iran's Gen. 

104
00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:01,120
Z visible on platforms like 
TikTok in their art, music, 

105
00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,040
among the diaspora and 
especially during the recent 

106
00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,880
uprisings. 
They define independence very 

107
00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:08,720
differently, don't they? 
They really do. 

108
00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,160
For them, it seems to be much 
more about the freedom to 

109
00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,920
express their own identity, 
freedom to challenge imposed 

110
00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,920
boundaries, both cultural and 
political, and to shape their 

111
00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,720
own civic narratives. 
So it's flipped inwards. 

112
00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:23,720
In a way, yes. 
What started as a fight against 

113
00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,320
foreign powers has, for a 
significant part of this new 

114
00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:30,000
generation, become a fight for 
individual freedom within their 

115
00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,960
own country. 
That's a truly profound 

116
00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:36,160
redefinition, I think. 
That is a powerful internal 

117
00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:38,320
redefinition. 
Let's unpack the shift maybe 

118
00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:40,640
further by looking at the 
institutional evolution side of 

119
00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:41,520
things. 
Good idea. 

120
00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,960
Before 1979, state control was a
key feature. 

121
00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,480
You mentioned Reza Shaw's 
government, for example, 

122
00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,800
nationalized many foreign run 
schools, centralized educational

123
00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,040
content. 
What was the aim there, bringing

124
00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,000
education so firmly under state 
narrative control? 

125
00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,240
It was a clear move, yeah, to 
align education with state 

126
00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,520
narratives, to foster a unified 
national identity as the state 

127
00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:03,640
defined it. 
OK. 

128
00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:08,200
Then later in the post World War
Two period, the US launched its 

129
00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,280
own cultural diplomacy effort, 
things like the Peace Corps, the

130
00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:13,680
Iran, America Society. 
Trying to build goodwill. 

131
00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:15,000
Exactly. 
Build goodwill. 

132
00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,680
Influence public opinion. 
But what's fascinating, though, 

133
00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,960
is how these efforts, by the 
time you get to the 1970s, 

134
00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:24,360
actually seemed to backfire. 
Well. 

135
00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,600
Amid this rising wave of 
cultural nationalism, the very 

136
00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,720
nationalism that Garbs and Iggy 
tapped into, these US efforts 

137
00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,960
were increasingly seen as 
cultural encroachment. 

138
00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,840
So they unintentionally laid 
some of the intellectual 

139
00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,200
groundwork for revolutionary 
resistance. 

140
00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,080
They kind of fed the sentiment 
they sought to counteract. 

141
00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:45,640
Wow, that's a that's an ironic 
twist. 

142
00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,160
OK, so after 1979, the Islamic 
Republic really 

143
00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,280
institutionalized its own vision
of independence, creating what 

144
00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:54,240
you could call these 
revolutionary control 

145
00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:55,240
structures. 
Yes. 

146
00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:59,120
Can you give us some specific 
examples of how these parallel 

147
00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,240
systems were designed to protect
the state from what it perceived

148
00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:04,160
as ideological and political 
threats? 

149
00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:08,400
Certainly a prime example, maybe
the most famous one, is the 

150
00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,280
Cultural Revolution. 
From about 1980 to 83 

151
00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,760
universities are closed, then 
reopened with completely 

152
00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:18,840
restructured curricula. 
The explicit aim was purging 

153
00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,040
Western influence from academic 
and cultural institutions. 

154
00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:23,520
A total overhaul. 
Pretty much. 

155
00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,680
Then you have the bonyats. 
These are semi state 

156
00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,080
foundations. 
Foundations is the literal 

157
00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:31,920
translation. 
They absorb huge amounts of 

158
00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:35,480
assets, particularly royal 
assets after the revolution, and

159
00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,640
now they control significant 
chunks of the Iranian economy. 

160
00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,039
And, crucially, they report 
directly to the Supreme Leader 

161
00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:43,880
outside normal government 
channels. 

162
00:08:43,919 --> 00:08:46,600
So massive economic power 
centers, huge. 

163
00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,200
And beyond the economic and 
cultural, there's a strong 

164
00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,200
security element to this 
institutionalization too, isn't 

165
00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:52,520
there? 
Oh. 

166
00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:54,920
Absolutely central. 
The IRGC, the Islamic 

167
00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,080
Revolutionary Guard Corps, 
Iran's powerful military and 

168
00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:00,760
political force. 
It was established initially to 

169
00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:04,440
defend the revolution, but it's 
evolved into this multifaceted 

170
00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,000
entity. 
It has powerful military 

171
00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:11,520
branches, yes, but also vast 
economic interests, political 

172
00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:14,680
influence, responsibilities 
ranging from building 

173
00:09:14,680 --> 00:09:16,680
infrastructure to running media 
outlets. 

174
00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,960
A state within a state almost. 
Some observers definitely 

175
00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:22,480
describe it that way. 
We also see the MIAs, the 

176
00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:26,080
Ministry of Intelligence and 
Security, Neuron's main 

177
00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,680
intelligence agency, centralized
domestic and international 

178
00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,280
surveillance, including, 
controversially, 

179
00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,640
extraterritorial operations 
against perceived dissidents 

180
00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:38,200
abroad. 
And maybe crucially for the 

181
00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,120
software idea, there's the 
National Information Network. 

182
00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,160
This is a long term project 
designed to reduce reliance on 

183
00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,800
the global Internet. 
The halal Internet idea. 

184
00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,120
Sometimes call that yes. 
The aim is securing ideological 

185
00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:52,920
and technological sovereignty 
through state controlled digital

186
00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,400
infrastructure. 
More control over information 

187
00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:57,280
flow. 
So all these institutional 

188
00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:01,040
mechanisms were clearly designed
to fortify independence as the 

189
00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:05,080
state defined it, but ironically
they also seem to reveal the 

190
00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:09,720
inherent limits and 
contradictions of that kind of 

191
00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,600
state LED autonomy. 
Exactly where does this leave us

192
00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:14,120
then? 
Well, this brings us right to 

193
00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:15,960
that surprising, almost ironic 
twist. 

194
00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:19,920
We touched on this central 
paradox, OK, where the pursuit 

195
00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,360
of independence, specifically 
resistance to foreign 

196
00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,760
ideological influence, 
inadvertently created new forms 

197
00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:29,160
of internal control. 
Well, the Islamic Republic built

198
00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,120
these internal structures that 
in some ways, you could argue, 

199
00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,640
replicate the very hierarchical 
and exclusionary dynamics it 

200
00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,360
once opposed when fighting the 
Shah or foreign powers, You 

201
00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,760
know, the enforcement of a 
singular cultural identity, this

202
00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,720
oppression of dissent, the 
monopolization of information. 

203
00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,000
These actions have led many 
Iranians, especially younger 

204
00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,400
ones, to view the regime itself 
as a form of internal 

205
00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,200
domination. 
Wow, that's that's a powerful 

206
00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,240
realization. 
So you're suggesting that in the

207
00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:00,840
very act of resisting external 
influence, the regime 

208
00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,360
inadvertently built internal 
structures that mirrored the 

209
00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,160
kind of control they initially 
opposed? 

210
00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,000
That's certainly an argument 
many are making, yes, and it 

211
00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,040
connects to what we were saying 
about the younger generation. 

212
00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,920
Right for many young people and 
civic actors today true 

213
00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,920
independence S to call is no 
longer primarily about 

214
00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:21,240
resistance to state LED 
authority or external powers. 

215
00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,680
It seems to be defined by 
something much more fundamental.

216
00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,760
Freedom of thought, pluralism, 
civic autonomy. 

217
00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:29,400
Is that fair? 
That's. 

218
00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:31,360
Exactly right. 
The concept is being actively 

219
00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:33,680
reinterpreted. 
It's becoming a demand for 

220
00:11:33,680 --> 00:11:36,840
institutional accountability, 
for transparency, for more 

221
00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,320
participatory governance. 
You see these themes reflected 

222
00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:42,560
in works coming out of Iran and 
the diaspora. 

223
00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:47,160
Like analysis focusing on truth 
and trust in Iran's civic future

224
00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,520
or works title things like 2-3 
words. 

225
00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,000
They frame independence not just
as resisting external power, but

226
00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,480
as a positive commitment, A 
commitment to civic virtue, 

227
00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,120
ethical responsibility, finding 
shared meaning within society. 

228
00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,720
So it reveals this deeper 
tension, yes. 

229
00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,280
Between external sovereignty 
being free from foreign control 

230
00:12:06,560 --> 00:12:09,280
and internal liberation being 
free within your own society. 

231
00:12:09,680 --> 00:12:13,800
Can independence truly reconcile
cultural authenticity with civic

232
00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:15,080
freedom? 
That seems to be the core 

233
00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,040
question now that. 
Is the $1,000,000 question 

234
00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:18,360
isn't? 
It when you look at these 

235
00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,640
institutional shifts, all these 
bun yards, the IRGC, the 

236
00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:25,360
information network, what, 
what's maybe the most surprising

237
00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:27,120
unintended consequence you've 
observed? 

238
00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:31,000
Perhaps the most profound is how
the very definition of the 

239
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,840
threat has shifted for so many, 
the focus moving from the 

240
00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,640
external other to internal 
structures of power. 

241
00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,000
Right. 
It seems the future of estequal,

242
00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,000
then, might depend less on 
resisting the foreign and much 

243
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,760
more on reclaiming the domestic.
I think that captures it well. 

244
00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:50,200
It's about potentially 
rebuilding trust, rethinking 

245
00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:54,120
institutions, nurturing a more 
pluralistic civic identity from 

246
00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,000
within. 
And again, some of the Iran 1400

247
00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:58,840
Project articles really dig into
this. 

248
00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,280
Things like the evolution of 
citizenship in Iran, or from 

249
00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:05,920
fragmentation to citizenship. 
They explore these ideas in 

250
00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,720
Iran's contemporary context. 
And what's the take away there? 

251
00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,360
They seem to affirm that true 
independence Oregon maybe the 

252
00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:16,760
next phase of S to call for 
Iran's future might not lie just

253
00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,880
in rejecting the foreign, but in
finding the courage, the 

254
00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,240
capacity to rebuild from within.
What a journey this idea 

255
00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,640
Estequale has been on, from a 
definition really rooted in anti

256
00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:30,640
imperialism resisting outside 
forces, to one that for many now

257
00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,440
seems fundamentally linked to 
civic freedom and internal 

258
00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,160
liberation. 
It's a surprising and I think a 

259
00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,000
profound shift in focus isn't 
it? 

260
00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,560
From external threats to the 
internal dynamics of governance 

261
00:13:41,560 --> 00:13:43,280
and individual expression. 
It really is. 

262
00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,200
It forces us to consider the 
very nature of independence 

263
00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,280
itself, beyond just borders on a
map. 

264
00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,640
Indeed, it challenges us all, 
perhaps, to look beyond 

265
00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,760
simplistic definitions. 
So we leave you with this 

266
00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:56,920
thought. 
What does it truly mean to be 

267
00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,440
independent, not just for a 
nation, but maybe even for an 

268
00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,440
individual or a community? 
And in your own context, 

269
00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,640
wherever you are, how might 
independence be defined? 

270
00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,840
Less by what you resist 
externally and more by the 

271
00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,560
freedom, the trust, and the 
pluralism you cultivate from 

272
00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:23,600
within. 
Thank you for listening to the 

273
00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:29,520
Iran 1400 Project podcast. 
The Iran 1400 Project invites 

274
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,840
scholars, experts, and 
intellectuals to share their 

275
00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,160
assessment of the evolution of 
institutions and ideas during 

276
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:40,680
the past 100 years to inspire a 
vision of Iran in the 1400s. 

277
00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:44,480
If you found today's episode 
thought provoking, be sure to 

278
00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,960
subscribe, share, and continue 
the conversation. 

279
00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:53,520
For more content and upcoming 
events, visit iran1400.org. 

280
00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:59,040
Until next time, stay engaged, 
stay informed, and stay hopeful.